Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jeremyp on June 06, 2015, 02:29:03 PM
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On the Prayers and Thoughts Board, Floo writes
It is a pity Kennedy gave no thought to his child and continued to drink, therefore committing suicide in effect! >:(
I think a discussion on the subject on that board would be problematic (for once I agree with Vlad), so I have started this thread.
My personal opinion is that it is not as simple to kick the habit as Floo thinks, otherwise he would have done what she suggests.
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Quite.
Demonstrating all the sensitivity and compassion of the average cauliflower, Floo doesn't seem to be aware that CK was in the grip of an illness over which he had little, if any, control.
Curious that some sort of moral obloquy is visited upon some illnesses - primarily emotional illnesses, addictions and so forth - and not others, as though these are somehow choices that people freely adopt and voluntarily persist in.
I've seen alcohol destroy somebody at a considerably younger age than CK; a highly intelligent, highly skilled man who succeeded in stripping himself of wife, daughter, health, self-respect and sanity along the way before dying of exposure in an alleyway about 250 yards from my house, having passed out, dead drunk before becoming dead, on one of the coldest nights of the year. Yes, he was helped. I know because I was around at the time. It didn't work. Sometimes it doesn't.
Anyway, the point is that if Floo's understanding of alcoholism is anything like her insight into depression, she won't be able to say the same.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
That is basically saying "They were asking for trouble".
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That is basically saying "They were asking for trouble".
... and in that case is indistinguishable, in all practical terms, from saying the same of rape victims.
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That is basically saying "They were asking for trouble".
... and in that case is indistinguishable, in all practical terms, from saying the same of rape victims.
Yep.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
Nope, not hard hearted at all because that would need you to have the intelligence to be hard hearted
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
Nope, not hard hearted at all because that would need you to have the intelligence to be hard hearted
You don't need much intelligence to be hardhearted. You don't need the brain of Einstein to club hundreds of baby penguins to death.
Conversely, of course, even the cleverest people can be cruel at times. Josef Mengele was probably clever and well-educated.
People come in all forms, with diverse reactions. It's all part of being human.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
Nope, not hard hearted at all because that would need you to have the intelligence to be hard hearted
You don't need much intelligence to be hardhearted. You don't need the brain of Einstein to club hundreds of baby penguins to death.
Conversely, of course, even the cleverest people can be cruel at times. Josef Mengele was probably clever and well-educated.
People come in all forms, with diverse reactions. It's all part of being human.
Whoosh
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Everything I've seen indicates that Kennedy adored his little boy. It's apparent from the writings this week of those who knew him best - Alastair Campbell in particular - that Kennedy didn't want to have a drink problem. He wanted to be ok, for his family. For his son.
And he couldn't be. I don't think anything illustrates clearer the fact that alcoholism is a horrible illness that is terribly hard to beat. I know first-hand what it like to be involved with an alcoholic and the damage it does, but as with any life-threatening illness you have to accept that for some people this disease is too much and they can't be saved.
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May as well lock the thread now following that post, IMHO.
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May as well lock the thread now following that post, IMHO.
Yep, nothing else to say that will add and much that will detract.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
While I firmly believe that we all need to take responsibility for our actions, I think we need some sympathy for those who get it wrong - there but for grace of God . . . .
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
Yuck you sound like some of the Christians on this forum.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
So, someone who has an unhealthy life-style, eating the wrong things, and they get cancer, you would have no sympathy? It would be a question of, "get rid of the cancer: it's your fault anyway." No wonder you find it so difficult to accept the Gospel teaching of love.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
I am finding it difficult to put into words how reprehensible that post is.
As with others on here I have witnessed first hand what alcoholism can do to people - and taking a high handed judgemental stance is not anyway to go about helping them.
I know you don't pray Floo - but I think you had better start, because if any of your family do develop alcoholism you are going to be in a very difficult, lonely place if you don't change your stance.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
I am finding it difficult to put into words how reprehensible that post is.
As with others on here I have witnessed first hand what alcoholism can do to people - and taking a high handed judgemental stance is not anyway to go about helping them.
I know you don't pray Floo - but I think you had better start, because if any of your family do develop alcoholism you are going to be in a very difficult, lonely place if you don't change your stance.
Yes, it's a bit like telling somebody suffering from depression to "pull themselves together".
Help is what is needed, not reprimands. I'm perfectly sure that Floo would rally round if the occasion arose.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
It is blindingly obvious that you have no sympathy with almost anyone or anything; but to be hardened to people suffering from health problems like alcoholism, is pure ignorance. People don't choose to be ill and in desperate conditions. I once read that an alcoholic never defeats the addiction, he/she simply learns to control it.. What a way to have to live your life!
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It is blindingly obvious that you have no sympathy with almost anyone or anything; but to be hardened to people suffering from health problems like alcoholism, is pure ignorance. People don't choose to be ill and in desperate conditions. I once read that an alcoholic never defeats the addiction, he/she simply learns to control it.. What a way to have to live your life!
A highly dubious proposition to say the very least. It's the disease model of alcoholism as peddled (principally) by AA, which essentially consists of the mantra "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic," meaning that you're still an alcoholic when you're not drinking - you're a (currently) non-drinking alcoholic, always sick, always ready to slip back into the old ways. As you say, what a way to have to live your life.
It's not actually clear that you have to, though. Quite a few months back I came across some statistics which - to my great surprise - revealed how high a proportion of heavy drinkers and alcoholics (a) stopped abusing alcohol of their own accord, without any outside help and/or (b) continued to drink at moderate, medically safe social levels. It was some time ago; I can't now remember where I saw these figures and can't remember the exact numbers, but it was a surprisingly high figure. AA has cornered the public imagination with their disease model of alcoholism (sadly for a great many people); it's one of those widespread things that you hear people in society generally say without knowing that it's only the opinion of one particular group. It's a bit like the way that people often trot out "You're Jewish if you have a Jewish mother," not knowing that that matrilineal principle only applies to Orthodox Judaism. (Liberal forms of Judaism consider you Jewish if either parent is). But it's very far indeed from being the whole story.
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I wonder about smoking - I regard myself as an ex-smoker, not a smoker who currently doesn't smoke. I haven't smoked for over 25 yrs now.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
It is blindingly obvious that you have no sympathy with almost anyone or anything; but to be hardened to people suffering from health problems like alcoholism, is pure ignorance. People don't choose to be ill and in desperate conditions. I once read that an alcoholic never defeats the addiction, he/she simply learns to control it.. What a way to have to live your life!
To be fair, BA, Floo was terribly worried about you when you lost Rusty.
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I wonder about smoking - I regard myself as an ex-smoker, not a smoker who currently doesn't smoke. I haven't smoked for over 25 yrs now.
Exactly - I gave up smoking 14 years ago (Saturday August 4th 2001 ... about lunchtime :D ), eating meat 22 years ago but don't label myself as a currently non-smoking smoker or a currently non-meat-eating omnivore. It's very peculiar.
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
It is blindingly obvious that you have no sympathy with almost anyone or anything; but to be hardened to people suffering from health problems like alcoholism, is pure ignorance. People don't choose to be ill and in desperate conditions. I once read that an alcoholic never defeats the addiction, he/she simply learns to control it.. What a way to have to live your life!
To be fair, BA, Floo was terribly worried about you when you lost Rusty.
... and similarly when you've had worrying health scares, as I recall. Not intending to go into detail as these are personal matters.
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I think the issue with alcohol, more than cigarettes or meat eating, is that the consumption of alcohol has an immediate effect on one's ability to make choices and one's rationality.
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Yes, I believe it is disputed as to whether it's safe for an alcoholic to ever touch a drink again - it doesn't take much for ones judgement to be lost. I had a friend who enjoyed the odd glass of wine post-addiction - whether he's still ok or not I don't know. Which is why I think AA have the message that you never stop being an addict - it probably acts as some kind of psychological brake.
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What a miserable view of yourself to hold though - to be actively encouraged to think of yourself as a powerless and helpless victim.
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I think the issue with alcohol, more than cigarettes or meat eating, is that the consumption of alcohol has an immediate effect on one's ability to make choices and one's rationality.
Yes, exactly. It's not a disease in the sense that it just comes upon one by chance - people choose it over a period of time - many aspects of their lives are involved with it. Having extracted themselves from that lifestyle and given up alcohol there remains the possibility of making those same choices again - especially after a drink or two.
I only drink moderately, at most a bottle of wine a week, often none - but I know that after about two large glasses I will happily carry on and drink myself under the table.
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# 25 Shaker, I don't know - I think the power to say no is pretty strengthening. I don't think it diminishes anyone to understand that certain chemicals affect some people more than others and it is better to walk away. We don't think any worse of diabetics for avoiding sugar or coeliacs for avoiding wheat. I'm allergic to formaldehyde so it means (among myriad other things) avoiding normal hair dye, even though I'd much rather colour it it's not worth the trouble afterwards. In a sense it's quite empowering to know what one's problem is and tell it to bugger off.
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The fact that wine, once opened, doesn't keep tremendously well acts as a rationale for many people finishing the bottle lest it go to waste, of course.
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Well yes :)
You need to go to the effort of sealing it properly so it keeps well over about three days in the fridge. Wife doesn't drink at all, so. for me, best to have someone round to share it :)
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What a miserable view of yourself to hold though - to be actively encouraged to think of yourself as a powerless and helpless victim.
I don' t think victim is the right word, rather that for some it is their own flaw that they have to deal with. It is also not an approach that will work for all BUT whatever gets you through the day is fine with me.
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The fact that wine, once opened, doesn't keep tremendously well acts as a rationale for many people finishing the bottle lest it go to waste, of course.
We have a wine box, which is drinkable for up to six weeks, so we are not tempted to down a bottle in the two days it keeps fresh.
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Where's the fun in that?
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I'd think the worry would be when the wine box is gone in two days. :o
Incidentally, wine boxes are very convenient if you use wine in cooking a lot.
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I'd think the worry would be when the wine box is gone in two days. :o
Depends how much they hold!
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I'd think the worry would be when the wine box is gone in two days. :o
Incidentally, wine boxes are very convenient if you use wine in cooking a lot.
It takes us about two weeks to finish our wine box.
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I'd think the worry would be when the wine box is gone in two days. :o
Incidentally, wine boxes are very convenient if you use wine in cooking a lot.
It takes us about two weeks to finish our wine box.
How big is the box?
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I'd think the worry would be when the wine box is gone in two days. :o
Incidentally, wine boxes are very convenient if you use wine in cooking a lot.
It takes us about two weeks to finish our wine box.
How big is the box?
http://tinyurl.com/o9c2eo9
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And from Newsthump:
http://newsthump.com/2015/06/08/government-confirms-drug-that-killed-charles-kennedy-to-remain-perfectly-legal/
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If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
Yuck you sound like some of the Christians on this forum.
Who, and in what way?