Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Muslim Topic => Topic started by: john on June 13, 2015, 04:06:44 PM
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Muslims who come to the West have the right to practice the articles of their faith guaranteed by law. They can build Mosques, often receiving public funding to do so. Why are there no churches, temples and synagogues in Saudi Arabia (the spiritual home of Islam)?
See also Sassy’s post today in the General Discussion thread to see what happens to Christians in another Islamic country.
Muslims in the west are free to visit, Stonehenge, The Houses of Parliament, Coventry Cathedral and often Muslim leaders are also often invited to attend religious services held in places such as St Pauls, Westminster Cathedral and even The Vatican. Why are non Muslims prevented from visiting Mecca?
Though I believe I would be allowed to visit the public executions of apostates, the amputations of limbs from minor criminals and view the stoning to death of naughty women. I should be grateful for this privilege permitted by the merciful Allah presumably to discourage me from improper behavoir.
Muslims (and Jews) in the West are allowed exemption on religious grounds from animal cruelty laws that apply to everyone else so that they can ritually slaughter animals barbarically leaving them to bleed to death slowly. Why cannot we buy communion wine in Saudi Arabia?
Muslim women in the West are allowed to cover themselves except for an eye slit, even when entering banks and petrol stations where I have to remove my crash helmet, for security reasons. If Muslims can be exempted from the cultural norm in dress code here then why can’t my wife drive a hire car in Saudi Arabia whilst wearing shorts and a tee shirt on a hot day?
Why do Muslim refugees’ risk their lives to get to the West then set about trying to establish the same sort of society here from which they fled?
In the very large “shopping mall” near my home Muslims often have a stall from which they hand out tracts etc. They are free to do so. No one seeks to stop them. What happens to Sassy’s preachers when they try to spread their own truths?
How should we be responding to Islam’s failure to reciprocate the respect we show it?
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It really a very weak & frightened religion with no real base to it.
WELLLLL...
One that can very easily be refuted anyway !!!
Purely 'fear of the afterlife' driven with the 'you WILL do as you're told or just look at what we've got in store for YOU !!!!!
None of which is, of course, proveable.
It's stuck in this medieval mind-set despite being 'For ALL People For ALL Time' which is clearly bollox as ALL meat-eaters can so easily eat pork etc
For ALL people IF you stay in this state of thinking, or LACK of it, I'm afraid.
This CAN be applied to other religious views but they tend to be less 'self-destructive'.
I'll just await the predictable reply any time soon.
Nick
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Difficult to gainsay your post, john!
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How should we be responding to Islam’s failure to reciprocate the respect we show it?
Those things are not representative of all of the Islam or all Muslims but versions of it. We are in danger of prejudging people and label a huge group as 'the other' in the process.
I've spoken to several moderate Muslims who don't think these people represent their faith in the slightest but also don't see the it as their problem, so don't speak out. Likewise liberals in the West are terrified of being seen as islamophobic and remain largely silent, I can see the extremes in both societies winning the day.
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Lots of moderate Muslims do speak out. Whether it gets reported in the media is another question - moderate headlines don't generate as much interest as reports on extremism.
Moderate Muslims have also been killed by extremists for speaking out.
Regarding Saudi Wahhabi interpretations of Islam - they have the money from oil to fund schools to teach their brand of Islam so it has spread. Also, Saudi employs a lot of labour from other countries and so countries find it difficult to stand up to the Saudi rulers because Saudi threatens to cut off that country's access to the ME labour markets, which provides a lot of money for the economies of those foreign countries as workers send their wages home to support their families.
Non-Arab Muslim workers also change their practice of Islam because of Saudi influence and patronage, and when they return home they take Wahhabi Islam with them. We are seeing an increasing Wahhabi influence in Sri Lanka.
Saudi buys a lot of military hardware from British firms so the British government is not going to risk offending the Saudis as it provides a huge amount of revenue and taxes for the British economy. So not sure what can be done to get Saudi to be more open and tolerant. As to whether Britain should be tolerant of foreign culture - I think we've discussed on here that it is not good to be too tolerant if it is at the expense of law and order.
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G
Unfortunately you're completely right here. :o
Did you see that prog on ITV last night with EX-Jihadists?
Recorded it but haven't watched it all yet. Seems VERY interesting indeed.
N
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Just to balance the arguments. See this horrific set of pics from a recent bombing of a Christian church in Pakistan & THEN tell me Islam has nothing to do with this !!!!
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/in-the-media/graphic-images-of-christian-persecution-under-islam/
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Fundamentalist Islam is very much like Christianity once was centuries ago - not only do they try to eradicate other religions but also the wrong kind of their own, too.
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How should we be responding to Islam’s failure to reciprocate the respect we show it?
Those things are not representative of all of the Islam or all Muslims but versions of it. We are in danger of prejudging people and label a huge group as 'the other' in the process.
I've spoken to several moderate Muslims who don't think these people represent their faith in the slightest but also don't see the it as their problem, so don't speak out. Likewise liberals in the West are terrified of being seen as islamophobic and remain largely silent, I can see the extremes in both societies winning the day.
I don't know if Gabriella agrees with me, but I think too many parents will become sick of seeing their kids going off to die and change will come from within Islam itself.
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I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out
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To be honest, the overwhelming message I get from British Muslims is that they wish the fundies would shut the fuck up and disappear. I don't think they can relate to it a lot easier than we can.
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How should we be responding to Islam’s failure to reciprocate the respect we show it?
john, there are those around the world - and not just Muslims - who would ask the same of the UK. Why doesn't the UK reciprocate the respect that they believe exists in their own countries. For instance, whilst living in Nepal, I often heard people (many of whom had an understanding of British society though connections with the Gurkhas, and ex-Gurkhas living here) talk about the apparent lack of respect for the elderly here, something that they would never ever allow over there.
I think that your post indicates a lack of understanding of just how intolerant we - as Britons - can be towards some members of our own communities (as opposed to immigrants/asylum seekers/etc.)
We do better in some spheres and worse in others.
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I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out
Couldn't agree more, NS. Yet there is also an aspect, referred to by an ex Chief Prosecutor for the North West on BBC Breakfast earlier, that often those we see speaking out on TV don't really engage with the young in their communities.
It reminds me a bit of the situation at the height of the Bridgend youth suicides 10 or 15 years ago; politicians would appear on TV and radio to condemn the practice (it often seemed to be in the form of suicide pacts between friends at the same schools) yet nothing really got done in regards to talking to the children and young people who were involved/affected to work out why it was happening and what could be done to stop the kids doing it. That came some years later.
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It often seems to me that anyone, Muslim or non Muslim, who questions whether it is correct to regard Islam as some external sole cause, or Muslims as supporting terrorism en bloc, is then argued to somehow be speaking for terrorism.
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I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out
Do you? Where?
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Hope makes an interesting point, in that there is a sense in which speaking out might be an issue, IF it isn't backed up with ways to actually talk to people. Seeing people on TV saying how evil you are if you act in a certain way, might increase the attraction in some ways for some.
If the argument is seen as a simple dichotomy between good and evil, then the actions of usage of drones, amongst other things, can then be argued in a 'they started it' argument to show that it must be the 'West' that is evil. Thinking that the situation has shades of grey does not mean one is justifying ISIS beheading people.
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I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out
Do you? Where?
On news programmes and in newspapers. The problem seems to me that any time any one says I condemn this BUT there are bigger issues, or I utterly condemn it BUT we need to look for wider solutions, all anyone hears is BUT.
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I miss all this non speaking out. I seem to see nothing but speaking out
Do you? Where?
On news programmes and in newspapers. The problem seems to me that any time any one says I condemn this BUT there are bigger issues, or I utterly condemn it BUT we need to look for wider solutions, all anyone hears is BUT.
So for example 'I condemn the BNP but they have been driven to this by Islamic extremists'.
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So for example 'I condemn the BNP but they have been driven to this by Islamic extremists'.
Perhaps not that clever an example, jakswan. For a start, I've never heard anyone say this, and secondly, the BNP long predates Islamic extremism of the kind we are seeing now (ISIS, Al Quaeda, ...)
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Interesting that you chose to follow the BUT with an incredibly simplistic piece of analysis, rather than anything more challenging. I occasionally hear such simplistic approaches but incredibly rarely in comparison to more nuances replies and I hear that simplicity just as often when people say 'I condemn the killing of innoceets by a drone attack BUT it is the price caused by Islamic fundamentalism.' Actually I hear that les because we rarely present details of such deaths in the media at all.
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I think we need to accept what whilst there are no excuses for the barbarism of Isil there are reasons for it. There are reasons why our young people are attracted to it.
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To be fair, almost everyone thinks there are reasons, it's just that some people see Islam as a specific external reason, because it subverts how 'civilized' people think and turns them into terrorists.
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Don't worry about it Rose, Gabriella will be along in a mo to assure you it has nothing to do with religion!
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I was horrified at the latest news where the women left their husbands and took there children over there.
I find it hard to get my head around that one :(
They fell for a load of bullshit.
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Someone in their local community said their marriages were unhappy, but I doubt that'll go down well with IS. We'll probably never know what happens to them though.
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Don't worry about it Rose, Gabriella will be along in a mo to assure you it has nothing to do with religion!
Ooh - a fan. Thanks John. Always enjoy it when people like you are too lazy to make an argument about the actual issues as I don't need to spend any time on countering your points. Makes it so much easier to present my opinion about the issues when you discuss me instead of the issues, or when you so crudely and obviously misrepresent my position.
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Don't worry about it Rose, Gabriella will be along in a mo to assure you it has nothing to do with religion!
Except that isn't what Gabriella has ever said.
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Report from ISIS Daily Planet
Wide spread abuse of children by honoured citizens in UK covered up by govt officials at highest level. Abuse carried out in children's homes and churches by govt ministers, priests and loved and honoured tv celebrities.
Some people try and take their children to this country, ISIS is shocked to learn.
As to the actual case, not sure we currently know enough,too much speculation.
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G
Unfortunately you're completely right here. :o
Did you see that prog on ITV last night with EX-Jihadists?
Recorded it but haven't watched it all yet. Seems VERY interesting indeed.
N
I didn't see it when it aired but watched it with my 15 year old daughter on Catch-Up last night. I was interested to note that she asked me what "jihad" meant as it was not a term she was familiar with. Obviously she is aware of 9/11 and terrorism - apart from the images she has seen of terrorist atrocities, she has seen her father searched at the Heathrow by security whenever we travel to the US, simply because his first name is Mohamed. Heathrow security hadn't even identified him when they called out an announcement that they needed to search Mohamed and could he identify himself to the staff at the Boarding Gate.
It was an interesting programme. Lots of Muslims speaking out against extremism, which was good.
And I found it did help me understand better why some young people are drawn to extremism - e.g. because they feel unaccepted and alienated from their parents and community and the wider society that they live in - where they often experience racism - and this causes some of them to feel full of hate and powerless and insignificant, whereas the idea of fighting and dying for a cause makes them feel more powerful and like they have meaning and significance to someone.
One of the former Mujahideen on the programme said he saw a lot of poverty, starvation and death in Bosnia, and thought to himself that he did not have food or money to give these people - women and children - but he could defend them with his body and his weapons.
Apparently young Muslim men who feel alienated and are full of anger and sexual frustration, become manipulated by extremist groups using various psychological techniques, and find themselves sucked in because they are shown understanding and compassion and kindness and acceptance by the extremist group. So the message to Muslim parents was to show understanding and acceptance towards their children and talk to them more about the struggles they face trying to fit in and be accepted by this culture rather than parents trying to rigidly enforce their own culture and not communicate openly with their children and not discuss challenging issues that make their children feel alone and isolated.
ETA - for the avoidance of doubt, I am not dismissing religion as a factor - I think culture includes religion because people's interpretation of religion influence their interpretation of their culture and people's interpretation of their culture influences their interpretation of their religion.
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Report from ISIS Daily Planet
Wide spread abuse of children by honoured citizens in UK covered up by govt officials at highest level. Abuse carried out in children's homes and churches by govt ministers, priests and loved and honoured tv celebrities.
Some people try and take their children to this country, ISIS is shocked to learn.
As to the actual case, not sure we currently know enough,too much speculation.
NS
Interesting, they see us as the abusers.
Where did you get the article from?
My brain. I just connected your two posts about child abuse and the report from the Mail.
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The don't need me to give them ideas, they are there being used. They see their actions as justified, in part, by the horrific consequences of our evil society where people who have abused children can be allowed to pass laws but are incompetent to stand trial, thus letting them get away with it. Where we have churchws protecting homosexual paedophiles and then want to celebrate gay marriage. Where we sell pole dancing kits for children. The Mail comments columns are filled with people who think we live in a modern day Sodom, very few of them are logging on from Syria or Iraq.
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Rose,
I think this is part of the disconnect between the way people in this country see themselves and how this society is viewed by others. Some people here think there is justice and punishment for crime while other people think there isn't. And in the same way - ISIS face punishment - they are opposed and bombed and killed by Muslims and non-Muslims.
Part of the anger and alienation amongst members of the Muslim community, both here and abroad, seems to be about the perception that people here don't get punished - the British government can invade countries on false pretexts and not be held accountable by any court of law for the ensuing death and mayhem. Israel can use their army to steal land, kill large numbers of people, build settlements on that land in contravention of international law and not be held accountable for their actions.
On the programme Trippy mentioned about ex-Jihadists, Muslims were saying that the anger can be used in a positive way through being critical of foreign policy and through political activism in trying to hold governments accountable or the anger can be used in a negative way i.e. terrorism.
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Interesting that you chose to follow the BUT with an incredibly simplistic piece of analysis, rather than anything more challenging. I occasionally hear such simplistic approaches but incredibly rarely in comparison to more nuances replies and I hear that simplicity just as often when people say 'I condemn the killing of innoceets by a drone attack BUT it is the price caused by Islamic fundamentalism.' Actually I hear that les because we rarely present details of such deaths in the media at all.
I wouldn't add a but, the BNP are racist idiots pursuing an ideology that will promote division and a prejudiced society, they should be condemned with no 'buts'.
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Interesting that you chose to follow the BUT with an incredibly simplistic piece of analysis, rather than anything more challenging. I occasionally hear such simplistic approaches but incredibly rarely in comparison to more nuances replies and I hear that simplicity just as often when people say 'I condemn the killing of innoceets by a drone attack BUT it is the price caused by Islamic fundamentalism.' Actually I hear that les because we rarely present details of such deaths in the media at all.
I wouldn't add a but, the BNP are racist idiots pursuing an ideology that will promote division and a prejudiced society, they should be condemned with no 'buts'.
I don't see the point of taking that approach. I would try to understand their arguments and views and the reasons behind their crude policies in order to come up with alternative more nuanced solutions that would be acceptable to their supporters.
Also, BNP racism can be a response to racism from minorities towards the majority community.
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:-*
Interesting that you chose to follow the BUT with an incredibly simplistic piece of analysis, rather than anything more challenging. I occasionally hear such simplistic approaches but incredibly rarely in comparison to more nuances replies and I hear that simplicity just as often when people say 'I condemn the killing of innoceets by a drone attack BUT it is the price caused by Islamic fundamentalism.' Actually I hear that les because we rarely present details of such deaths in the media at all.
I wouldn't add a but, the BNP are racist idiots pursuing an ideology that will promote division and a prejudiced society, they should be condemned with no 'buts'.
Then you don't really understand what people are saying when they use the word in many cases, which is effectively condemnation is meaningless. It's a mere sop to you to try and make you feel good. It won't stop the acts, indeed in a simple blanket approach may increase the alienation of people if all they see is a parade of Muslims brought on TV to intone their condemnation but not add any comments.
Taking the killing of innocents in drone attacks, I hear a lot of supporters of drones saying 'I of course don't want any innocents to die and it is hugely regretful but it is the actions of the terrorists who operate close to innocents that put them in danger and we do everything we can to avoid this tragic loss of life' - your position seems to be that as soon as they say but we can ignore anything that follows and assume that it isn't real regret.
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Then you don't really understand what people are saying when they use the word in many cases, which is effectively condemnation is meaningless. It's a mere sop to you to try and make you feel good. It won't stop the acts, indeed in a simple blanket approach may increase the alienation of people if all they see is a parade of Muslims brought on TV to intone their condemnation but not add any comments.
Taking the killing of innocents in drone attacks, I hear a lot of supporters of drones saying 'I of course don't want any innocents to die and it is hugely regretful but it is the actions of the terrorists who operate close to innocents that put them in danger and we do everything we can to avoid this tragic loss of life' - your position seems to be that as soon as they say but we can ignore anything that follows and assume that it isn't real regret.
Perhaps a bad comparison, lets say a military leader ordered a drone attack that targeted innocent civilians, did it in the name of secular humanism and justified it on the same basis.
I would condemn and further go on to explain that secular humanism couldn't justify innocent civilians, no buts are needed.
Or I could say 'but part of the anger and alienation amongst members of the secular humanist community, seems to be about the perception that Muslims don't condemn, without any buts the actions of those that carry out terrorism in the name of their religion.'
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Then you don't really understand what people are saying when they use the word in many cases, which is effectively condemnation is meaningless. It's a mere sop to you to try and make you feel good. It won't stop the acts, indeed in a simple blanket approach may increase the alienation of people if all they see is a parade of Muslims brought on TV to intone their condemnation but not add any comments.
Taking the killing of innocents in drone attacks, I hear a lot of supporters of drones saying 'I of course don't want any innocents to die and it is hugely regretful but it is the actions of the terrorists who operate close to innocents that put them in danger and we do everything we can to avoid this tragic loss of life' - your position seems to be that as soon as they say but we can ignore anything that follows and assume that it isn't real regret.
Perhaps a bad comparison, lets say a military leader ordered a drone attack that targeted innocent civilians, did it in the name of secular humanism and justified it on the same basis.
I would condemn and further go on to explain that secular humanism couldn't justify innocent civilians, no buts are needed.
Or I could say 'but part of the anger and alienation amongst members of the secular humanist community, seems to be about the perception that Muslims don't condemn, without any buts the actions of those that carry out terrorism in the name of their religion.'
So if it is done in the name of Western interests and you are sitting next to the house where your friends were killed and someone says but, you are entitled on your position to ignore that as not real regret and see it as just an excuse for the West murdering your neighbour?
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The OP was not about "extremism" but more of a general intolerance in the Islamic world, a failure to reciprocate or meet half way.
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The difference being that we in the west, and specifically Europe, generally do not consider religion as being necessarily a fundamental aspect of our society and treat them like any other club or society. They, however, see it as a life and death issue, as we did once many centuries ago.
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Rose,
I think this is part of the disconnect between the way people in this country see themselves and how this society is viewed by others. Some people here think there is justice and punishment for crime while other people think there isn't. And in the same way - ISIS face punishment - they are opposed and bombed and killed by Muslims and non-Muslims.
Part of the anger and alienation amongst members of the Muslim community, both here and abroad, seems to be about the perception that people here don't get punished - the British government can invade countries on false pretexts and not be held accountable by any court of law for the ensuing death and mayhem. Israel can use their army to steal land, kill large numbers of people, build settlements on that land in contravention of international law and not be held accountable for their actions.
On the programme Trippy mentioned about ex-Jihadists, Muslims were saying that the anger can be used in a positive way through being critical of foreign policy and through political activism in trying to hold governments accountable or the anger can be used in a negative way i.e. terrorism.
Do they, or even us, expect our leaders to play fair? I think not. And this is a valid point for them to take. But I'm still a little confused why ISIS are destroying mosques etc.
The reason why the western people don't take up arms is because they have been manipulated to be emotionally like children, spoilt by the luxury of the western life style. But this is changing and it would be productive if both Muslim and Western aired out these views of the corrupt elites who are stealing from the people.
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Then you don't really understand what people are saying when they use the word in many cases, which is effectively condemnation is meaningless. It's a mere sop to you to try and make you feel good. It won't stop the acts, indeed in a simple blanket approach may increase the alienation of people if all they see is a parade of Muslims brought on TV to intone their condemnation but not add any comments.
Taking the killing of innocents in drone attacks, I hear a lot of supporters of drones saying 'I of course don't want any innocents to die and it is hugely regretful but it is the actions of the terrorists who operate close to innocents that put them in danger and we do everything we can to avoid this tragic loss of life' - your position seems to be that as soon as they say but we can ignore anything that follows and assume that it isn't real regret.
Perhaps a bad comparison, lets say a military leader ordered a drone attack that targeted innocent civilians, did it in the name of secular humanism and justified it on the same basis.
I would condemn and further go on to explain that secular humanism couldn't justify innocent civilians, no buts are needed.
Or I could say 'but part of the anger and alienation amongst members of the secular humanist community, seems to be about the perception that Muslims don't condemn, without any buts the actions of those that carry out terrorism in the name of their religion.'
So if it is done in the name of Western interests and you are sitting next to the house where your friends were killed and someone says but, you are entitled on your position to ignore that as not real regret and see it as just an excuse for the West murdering your neighbour?
No where did you get that idea from? I'd condemn it and ask how on earth the West thinks it can justify such an act.
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Then you don't really understand what people are saying when they use the word in many cases, which is effectively condemnation is meaningless. It's a mere sop to you to try and make you feel good. It won't stop the acts, indeed in a simple blanket approach may increase the alienation of people if all they see is a parade of Muslims brought on TV to intone their condemnation but not add any comments.
Taking the killing of innocents in drone attacks, I hear a lot of supporters of drones saying 'I of course don't want any innocents to die and it is hugely regretful but it is the actions of the terrorists who operate close to innocents that put them in danger and we do everything we can to avoid this tragic loss of life' - your position seems to be that as soon as they say but we can ignore anything that follows and assume that it isn't real regret.
Perhaps a bad comparison, lets say a military leader ordered a drone attack that targeted innocent civilians, did it in the name of secular humanism and justified it on the same basis.
I would condemn and further go on to explain that secular humanism couldn't justify innocent civilians, no buts are needed.
Or I could say 'but part of the anger and alienation amongst members of the secular humanist community, seems to be about the perception that Muslims don't condemn, without any buts the actions of those that carry out terrorism in the name of their religion.'
So if it is done in the name of Western interests and you are sitting next to the house where your friends were killed and someone says but, you are entitled on your position to ignore that as not real regret and see it as just an excuse for the West murdering your neighbour?
No where did you get that idea from? I'd condemn it and ask how on earth the West thinks it can justify such an act.
But I don't see much on here excoriating those killing innocents with drones and what people see is that being condemned in precisely that way with a but.
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EXCORIATING ?????
Sorry ??
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It's very sad 😟
I suppose they might have had an arranged marriage in the first place and were unhappy, but you read such awful things about Isis.
If I was those dads I would be going out of my mind
More related to the lad from Bradford who went out and became Britain's youngest suicide bomber, bur probably equally applicable to these women - there was an interesting comparison between the grooming of young people by paedophiles and the grooming of young people by ISIS. IIRC it was made in an interview with an imam in Bradford on one of the BBC news programmes on Tuesday.
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Good article by Allison Pearson in the Telegraph. The rabid socialist Islamophiles (it's all the zionists and evil amerikees fault) might want to avoid reading the comments
lest they suffer a cardiac arrest or burst a blood vessel.
Has anyone got an ounce of sympathy for these dads even if it is proved their wives have travelled into IS territory. These evil brainwashed jihadi women have put their children at risk by taking them to a war zone. My only hope is that these families and other IS supporters are never allowed back in the UK.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11681035/Allison-Pearson-Mothers-dont-take-their-children-to-a-war-zone-without-reason.html
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Isn't it funny how so many posters here rush to derail posts they do not like in the attempt to avoid dealing with the issue.
The question asked at the end of my OP was simply how are we to deal with a faith that does not reciprocate the respect we show to it?
I am not the only person asking this I have pasted an article by a Muslim journalist who asks the same question merely to show it is not only me who worries about this.
How did modern Islam become so intolerant?
by Yasmin Alibhai Brown
In Allah’s name, what is wrong with us Muslims? And why do we find it so hard to ask that question of ourselves? What will it take to break the heavily curtained window of denial?…
…no injustice can excuse or explain the rise of brutal Islamicists. Palestine is their cynical, moral pretence. Racism? Black Afro-Caribbean men who suffer the worst discrimination in this country don’t set up terrorist cells. Muslim foreign policy rage is questionable too. Over many decades, Western meddling in, say, Zimbabwe or Kenya has led to some of the intractable, current problems in those nations. Again, Kenyans and Zimbabwean migrants to the UK aren’t cooking carnage in pots in their kitchens.
Religion is another fig leaf used by millions of Prophet Mohamed’s followers. Islam, they rightly contend, does not sanction the killing of civilians by hobbyists or leaders. However, by focusing on what the good texts say, Muslims avoid the reality of what Muslims do. I doubt even the most virtuous imam can point this out without being subjected to threats.
And while ever alert on Islamaphobia, organisations like the Muslim Council of Britain assiduously avoid looking at the willed ignorance and barbarism within Muslim communities around the world in states controlled by Muslims.
Take this last week, when Bangladesh erupted with anger and competing protests led to five deaths. Secularists demand punishment for the Bangladeshi men who committed atrocities in the 1971 war for independence from Pakistan. Some of the perpetrators were militant Muslim militia and are defended by an alliance of powerful Islamicist parties.
In Egypt, human rights groups claim children are being detained and tortured. The government has spent £1.7m on tear gas. In Tunisia, after the assassination of the popular secular leader Chokri Belaid, Ennahda, the hardline Islamic party, takes charge. Fifty-three more died in an explosion in Syria where over 70,000 have been killed in two years.
Islamic rebels in Mali, Nigeria and elsewhere carry on their nefarious, destabilising activities. Eighty-nine Shias were killed in Pakistan, whose first leader, Muhammad Jinnah, was a Shia, as am I. They want to obliterate us there, in Afghanistan, Kashmir, Bahrain, and Iraq too, where bombs go off routinely to kill these worshippers. Other minority Muslim groups are also targeted and often murdered.
Internal and external intolerance is now Islam’s brand. Those great past Muslim civilisations famous for diversity, humanity, science, extraordinary achievements have died. Education, the arts, photographs, television, sports, even work are denounced by crazed imams online and in mosques worldwide, including the UK. In Brittain’s book, some women took on these values, and in effect, imprisoned themselves.
Polymath Ziauddin Sardar has met “countless Muslim scholars, thinkers, writers and activists” who are impatient for change and reform. That can’t happen while there is an aversion to criticism and self-criticism.
Thoughtful and honest Muslims stay silent because they fear ostracisation or inciting more racism against Muslims – both real perils. But silence now is cowardly, and collusion with the corrupters of our faith. True believers have a duty to speak out against that corruption.
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I don't think we can do anything, to be honest, except support those who want to see change from within Islam itself.
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Internal and external intolerance is now Islam’s brand. Those great past Muslim civilisations famous for diversity, humanity, science, extraordinary achievements have died. Education, the arts, photographs, television, sports, even work are denounced by crazed imams online and in mosques worldwide, including the UK. In Brittain’s book, some women took on these values, and in effect, imprisoned themselves.
Polymath Ziauddin Sardar has met “countless Muslim scholars, thinkers, writers and activists” who are impatient for change and reform. That can’t happen while there is an aversion to criticism and self-criticism.
Thoughtful and honest Muslims stay silent because they fear ostracisation or inciting more racism against Muslims – both real perils. But silence now is cowardly, and collusion with the corrupters of our faith. True believers have a duty to speak out against that corruption.
Firstly Muslims are NOT a race !!!
Secondly I feel those great civilisations were more DESPITE Islam & NOT because if it.
Thirdly If Islam, technically, is a monolithic religion where ALL Muslims are equal, although BETTER than ALL NON-Muslims, why the hell do we have so many conflicting groups in it such as Shia & Sunni etc??? WHY ?????
This attitude goes right the way back to the beginning & not a 'way in' as might be expected & has happened with, say The Bible religions. ::)
What we're getting now is the filth that has piled up for centuries being spewed out into the world, intent on taking as much OF the world as it possibly can.
Pretty sure we can all suggest remedies ?!!?!? ;) 8)
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It would help if people who claim that there is no self-criticism amongst Muslims actually spent time in mosques where imams are very vocal and critical of Muslim violence or actually read the statements issued by different Muslim organisations and individuals, who have publicly condemned atrocities in Muslim countries e.g. against the Shia in Pakistan and human rights abuses in various ME countries. These sensationalist generalisations about Muslims by journalists do not help all the Muslims who are speaking out against intolerance, but at least they get people discussing the issues, which is good. And if the article generates interest in the media and increases the number of Muslims who are allowed access to TV air time to publicly speak out against problems in the Muslim community - that extra attention from the media towards moderate Muslims can only be a good thing.
Also, in terms of issues such as fasting - it might be a small issue to non-Muslims but it is very important issue to Muslims. Not really sure how fasting goes against British values. Given that children learning self-restraint and self-discipline is a key goal of Muslim parents, it is not surprising that Muslim parents are not about to tell their children not to fast, especially if the children say they want to fast. Inexplicably the discipline of fasting and praying are much easier to do during Ramadan than in any other month so my experience is that children are enthusiastic about fasting during Ramadan.
My 10 year old is fasting today - entirely her idea - she didn't fast yesterday. Her school do not have a major problem with it and have told her she can decide if she does not want to go to the lunch hall or go outside during break as it could be hot. Not sure how this is a problem for anyone.
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Internal and external intolerance is now Islam’s brand. Those great past Muslim civilisations famous for diversity, humanity, science, extraordinary achievements have died. Education, the arts, photographs, television, sports, even work are denounced by crazed imams online and in mosques worldwide, including the UK. In Brittain’s book, some women took on these values, and in effect, imprisoned themselves.
Polymath Ziauddin Sardar has met “countless Muslim scholars, thinkers, writers and activists” who are impatient for change and reform. That can’t happen while there is an aversion to criticism and self-criticism.
Thoughtful and honest Muslims stay silent because they fear ostracisation or inciting more racism against Muslims – both real perils. But silence now is cowardly, and collusion with the corrupters of our faith. True believers have a duty to speak out against that corruption.
Firstly Muslims are NOT a race !!!
Secondly I feel those great civilisations were more DESPITE Islam & NOT because if it.
Thirdly If Islam, technically, is a monolithic religion where ALL Muslims are equal, although BETTER than ALL NON-Muslims, why the hell do we have so many conflicting groups in it such as Shia & Sunni etc??? WHY ?????
This attitude goes right the way back to the beginning & not a 'way in' as might be expected & has happened with, say The Bible religions. ::)
What we're getting now is the filth that has piled up for centuries being spewed out into the world, intent on taking as much OF the world as it possibly can.
Pretty sure we can all suggest remedies ?!!?!? ;) 8)
That's good to know that you have remedies for extremism. What kind of workable remedies can you suggest? Because not much point suggesting remedies that don't work.
The CIA were happy to make use of Muslim intolerance for the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan and didn't seem to mind the foreign Mujahideen travelling to Afghanistan to fight and kill or die violently on the battlefield. They just don't like Muslim intolerance fighting them or their allies, which is perfectly understandable but given all the encouragement these guys received in the 1980s and the success they had fighting for a cause they believed in that brought about the downfall of a superpower, how exactly do you propose to turn back the clock to pre- Soviet invasion of Afghanistan times, so that the militant Muslims don't see military force as the solution to their issues? After all, military force does work out for many nations, which is why the defence spending of those nations is so high.
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You know very well I was being sarcastic but I DO agree with so much of what you say BUT
We need ACTIONS, NOT words on these issues, as you know. !!!
Fasting is purely a 'self' measure & doesn't normally include murdering another individual so that issue is irrelevant here, sorry.
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You know very well I was being sarcastic but I DO agree with so much of what you say BUT
We need ACTIONS, NOT words on these issues, as you know. !!!
Fasting is purely a 'self' measure & doesn't normally include murdering another individual so that issue is irrelevant here, sorry.
Ok, ACTIONS such as...?
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You know very well I was being sarcastic but I DO agree with so much of what you say BUT
We need ACTIONS, NOT words on these issues, as you know. !!!
Fasting is purely a 'self' measure & doesn't normally include murdering another individual so that issue is irrelevant here, sorry.
Ok, ACTIONS such as...?
You're very good at getting from the 'past' to the 'present' but seem to have a lot of trouble going into the 'future' on issues here.
You seem to expect others to do it all.
I know what I'D like to do these people & that's BEFORE I've wiped my backside with them !!!!
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Ok, ACTIONS such as...?
You're very good at getting from the 'past' to the 'present' but seem to have a lot of trouble going into the 'future' on issues here.
You seem to expect others to do it all.
I know what I'D like to do these people & that's BEFORE I've wiped my backside with them !!!!
A military solution? Are you suggesting British troops on the ground or funding some 'moderates' to fight the extremists? Have you read 'Charlie Wilson's War' about the U.S. And Saudis funding the Mujahideen against the Soviets? The problem is that people with guns tend to become extremists and it might turn out like Afghanistan and the Soviets all over again, and we know that didn't turn out so well for the U.S. paymasters.
And other U.S. assistance continued even longer, according to Crile’s Charlie Wilson’s War. In the book, Crile described how Wilson kept the funding spigot open for the Afghan rebels not only after the Soviet departure in 1989 but even after the Soviet Union disintegrated in 1991.
Eventually, the mujahedeen did capture the strategic city of Khost, but turned it into a ghost town as civilians fled or faced the mujahedeen’s fundamentalist fury. Western aid workers found themselves “following the liberators in a desperate attempt to persuade them not to murder and pillage,” Crile wrote.
U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan Robert Oakley began to wonder who were the worse bad guys, the Soviet-backed communists or the U.S.-supported mujahedeen.
“It was the leaders of the Afghan puppet government who were saying all the right things, even paying lip service to democratic change,” Crile reported. “The mujahideen, on the other hand, were committing unspeakable atrocities and couldn’t even put aside their bickering and murderous thoughts long enough to capture Kabul.”
In 1991, as the Soviet Union careened toward its final crackup, the Senate Intelligence Committee approved nothing for Afghanistan, Crile wrote. “But no one could just turn off Charlie Wilson’s war like that,” Crile noted. “For Charlie Wilson, there was something fundamentally wrong with his war ending then and there. He didn’t like the idea of the United States going out with a whimper.”
Wilson made an impassioned appeal to the House Intelligence Committee and carried the day. The committee first considered a $100 million annual appropriation, but Wilson got them to boost it to $200 million, which – with the Saudi matching funds – totaled $400 million, Crile reported.
“And so, as the mujahideen were poised for their thirteenth year of war, instead of being cut off, it turned out to be a banner year,” Crile wrote. “They found themselves with not only a $400 million budget but also with a cornucopia of new weaponry sources that opened up when the United States decided to send the Iraqi weapons captured during the Gulf War to the mujahideen.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/hollywoods-dangerous-afghan-illusion-charlie-wilsons-war/5331107
Apparently during the end of the Soviet-Afghan war when the Soviet Union was pulling out of Afghanistan, thousands of Muslims men flocked to Afghanistan for 'jihadi vacations' where they pretended to be mujahideen long enough to have their picture taken with a gun to up their street cred back home.
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I wonder if instead of stopping people going to join this extreme group the authorities should be offering anyone who is unhappy with life in the UK free one way tickets, with the proviso they lose their British identity and cannot come back.
People at least then have a choice and it might ease tensions a bit, although families might be unhappy.
I just wonder why we are stopping adults who don't want to be here.
It's harder with children though, but we obviously can't stop people really.
Am I being heartless?
🌹
Many who are not happy here don't want to leave because the life-style they would have to exchange this for is so unattractive in a modern world, even though they largely find our culture and ways anathema.
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A lesser of 2 evils ??????
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I'm getting the impression that some of the young Muslims are finding themselves stuck between two unpalatable worlds. Their Imams are too conservative and out of touch with this western world and the countries they are in don't reflect the ethos they have been brought up in and thus the indigenous people tend to not full accept them. They're half a dozen of one and six of another.....?
These types then look elsewhere for a meaning to their lives.
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While taking a break from gardening duty I made a cuppa and put the telly on to find Sunday Morning Live was in full swing. I joined the programme at the part where an adherent of Islam from an organisation called "5Pillarz" was telling everyone how Britain should be ashamed of its history, its empire, its colonial past and had nothing whatsoever to say about the country. His stated preference would have been for the Ottoman Empire to still be a big player (not a trace of irony by the way) and blamed the British for its demise.
Born, and educated here, this was his position. Nothing good to say about the UK, not a thing. You could sense his contempt.
The next highlight was a bit of unscheduled comedy as the Beeb had another adherent of Islam discussing fasting and a ruling that would allow people not to go from dawn till dusk in the upper reaches od the northern hemisphere but within 30 seconds it degenerated into a slagging match between him and the "5Pillarz" bloke.
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Not surprising really - some people have really polarised opinions about things. Some people have nothing good to say about the UK , others have nothing good to say about Islam or Muslims. Even among the people who have the same polarised opinions on one issue, you will find disagreement about other issues.
Welcome to the Religion & Ethics Message Board by the way - you're obviously new around here and have yet to read all the polarised opinions just amongst the few people on here, let alone out in the wider world.
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I would expect a young man, born, raised and educated here would be able to find one thing to say that was good about the UK, but I was mistaken.
He was from somewhere else. He lives here but he is from a different place. I would wager there are many like him.
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Also, I see it is the fault of the police that the three Bradford sisters went to the Islamic state and here was me thinking it was because they did not want the children growing up in such a nasty debauched country, or perhaps it is both.
Clearly nothing to do with Islam and their conditioning since birth.
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While taking a break from gardening duty I made a cuppa and put the telly on to find Sunday Morning Live was in full swing. I joined the programme at the part where an adherent of Islam from an organisation called "5Pillarz" was telling everyone how Britain should be ashamed of its history, its empire, its colonial past and had nothing whatsoever to say about the country. His stated preference would have been for the Ottoman Empire to still be a big player (not a trace of irony by the way) and blamed the British for its demise.
Born, and educated here, this was his position. Nothing good to say about the UK, not a thing. You could sense his contempt.
The next highlight was a bit of unscheduled comedy as the Beeb had another adherent of Islam discussing fasting and a ruling that would allow people not to go from dawn till dusk in the upper reaches od the northern hemisphere but within 30 seconds it degenerated into a slagging match between him and the "5Pillarz" bloke.
I saw this twerp too. The UK has allowed this kind of person to be bred here.
Can you imagine if he were a Christian & said the same thing in, say, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia against THEIR societies. They'd be waiting at the door to 'take him to Paradise' ASAP ?!?!!?!??
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I'm getting the impression that some of the young Muslims are finding themselves stuck between two unpalatable worlds. Their Imams are too conservative and out of touch with this western world and the countries they are in don't reflect the ethos they have been brought up in and thus the indigenous people tend to not full accept them. They're half a dozen of one and six of another.....?
These types then look elsewhere for a meaning to their lives.
When looking elsewhere some of them seem to out-conservative the conservatives, whether it is conservative imams or conservative family members. These individuals leave their usual mosque because they find them not radical enough and go seek out something more austere, which i guess could be seen as a rejection of their parents' values as well as the values of the society they live in, but more worryingly a few of them end up either seeking something more violent or are persuaded by extremists to sacrifice their lives for a cause while at the same time killing people from a community they have rejected.
I can understand a rejection of drugs, binge drinking, over-sexualisation of teenagers, consumerism, excessive liberalism and this may well lead to people feeling like they don't fit in but the worrying aspect is when people cut themselves off completely from wider society in order to avoid being exposed to drugs, binge-drinking, over-sexualisation and consumerism because they also miss out on the good stuff that could be incorporated into their own more conservative culture.
As a parent I know the difficulty of countering the influence of excessive liberalism amongst the parents of my children's friends that leads to children overly focusing on their own wants while being dismissive of their responsibilities towards their family, their school or wider society. I am often amazed at how straight-forward rules or punishments for the benefit of the school are regarded by my 15 year old daughter and her friends as affronts to their individual rights. I find myself asking her how she expects the school to act, given they have to run a school and that it is not there as her personal playground, at which point she grudgingly admits that the school made the right decision.
I often have to cut my teenage daughter off from her friends by confiscating her phone, so she actually gets homework or chores done - her friends' parents seem to feel guilty to ask their kids to share in household chores, let alone actually restrict their freedoms in any other ways. Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture. Much as I would love to be supportive and understanding I often don't have time to deal with ill-informed, emotionally immature, know-it-all revolutionaries so I often find the only thing I do have time for is to lay down the law and cut her off from her friends. I often feel like I don't fit in with British culture (and I have lived here for over 40 years), so I can imagine she feels pretty much the same way. I'm pretty sure one of the reasons she hasn't followed the advice of her friends is because she knows that unlike her friends' parents, this particular Bank of Mum and Dad would cut her off in a heartbeat. It's therefore possible that the young people who are stupidly running off to ISIS are doing it to gain independence from and defy the authority of their immediate family - since ISIS are paying for their their travel. It amazes me that they are groomed to such an extent that they fall for their implausible lies of a wonderful utopia in a war-torn country run by men with guns who slaughter anyone who disagrees with their particular ideology.
There are grassroots Muslim activists amongst the Muslim communities who have set up safe environments in mosques and community centres (sponsored by donors) for young people (boys and girls) to talk about their issues such as fitting in and sexual attraction and being unable to get understanding from their parents, as well as gain self-esteem through activities such as sport. There is a huge number of people they can't reach due to lack of volunteers and lack of funds, which I think is a problem for many youth programmes, not just in the Muslim community.
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I would expect a young man, born, raised and educated here would be able to find one thing to say that was good about the UK, but I was mistaken.
He was from somewhere else. He lives here but he is from a different place. I would wager there are many like him.
One has to ask oneself why they came here in the first place and where they have come from?......and who let them in?
Quite obviously the multicultural idea has failed and such disparate cultures can not exist along side each other where one has a deep history in a land, and, therefore, things need to be adjusted.
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I would expect a young man, born, raised and educated here would be able to find one thing to say that was good about the UK, but I was mistaken.
He was from somewhere else. He lives here but he is from a different place. I would wager there are many like him.
One has to ask oneself why they came here in the first place and where they have come from?......and who let them in?
Quite obviously the multicultural idea has failed and such disparate cultures can not exist along side each other where one has a deep history in a land, and, therefore, things need to be adjusted.
Probably would have come for economic reasons, which coincidentally is the same reason why Britain went abroad to colonise foreign lands, as opposed to because the Brits wanted to immerse themselves in a foreign culture.
What about the 2011 riots and people like Russell Brand who call for revolution and is also very critical of various aspects of Britain, or the problems with gang-culture in general ? It seems like there are lots of cultures and sub-cultures within British culture - the mutli-cultural issues are just one aspect. The young man was at least just being critical, not violent.
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I'm getting the impression that some of the young Muslims are finding themselves stuck between two unpalatable worlds. Their Imams are too conservative and out of touch with this western world and the countries they are in don't reflect the ethos they have been brought up in and thus the indigenous people tend to not full accept them. They're half a dozen of one and six of another.....?
These types then look elsewhere for a meaning to their lives.
When looking elsewhere some of them seem to out-conservative the conservatives, whether it is conservative imams or conservative family members. These individuals leave their usual mosque because they find them not radical enough and go seek out something more austere, which i guess could be seen as a rejection of their parents' values as well as the values of the society they live in, but more worryingly a few of them end up either seeking something more violent or are persuaded by extremists to sacrifice their lives for a cause while at the same time killing people from a community they have rejected.
I can understand a rejection of drugs, binge drinking, over-sexualisation of teenagers, consumerism, excessive liberalism and this may well lead to people feeling like they don't fit in but the worrying aspect is when people cut themselves off completely from wider society in order to avoid being exposed to drugs, binge-drinking, over-sexualisation and consumerism because they also miss out on the good stuff that could be incorporated into their own more conservative culture.
As a parent I know the difficulty of countering the influence of excessive liberalism amongst the parents of my children's friends that leads to children overly focusing on their own wants while being dismissive of their responsibilities towards their family, their school or wider society. I am often amazed at how straight-forward rules or punishments for the benefit of the school are regarded by my 15 year old daughter and her friends as affronts to their individual rights. I find myself asking her how she expects the school to act, given they have to run a school and that it is not there as her personal playground, at which point she grudgingly admits that the school made the right decision.
I often have to cut my teenage daughter off from her friends by confiscating her phone, so she actually gets homework or chores done - her friends' parents seem to feel guilty to ask their kids to share in household chores, let alone actually restrict their freedoms in any other ways. Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture. Much as I would love to be supportive and understanding I often don't have time to deal with ill-informed, emotionally immature, know-it-all revolutionaries so I often find the only thing I do have time for is to lay down the law and cut her off from her friends. I often feel like I don't fit in with British culture (and I have lived here for over 40 years), so I can imagine she feels pretty much the same way. I'm pretty sure one of the reasons she hasn't followed the advice of her friends is because she knows that unlike her friends' parents, this particular Bank of Mum and Dad would cut her off in a heartbeat. It's therefore possible that the young people who are stupidly running off to ISIS are doing it to gain independence from and defy the authority of their immediate family - since ISIS are paying for their their travel. It amazes me that they are groomed to such an extent that they fall for their implausible lies of a wonderful utopia in a war-torn country run by men with guns who slaughter anyone who disagrees with their particular ideology.
There are grassroots Muslim activists amongst the Muslim communities who have set up safe environments in mosques and community centres (sponsored by donors) for young people (boys and girls) to talk about their issues such as fitting in and sexual attraction and being unable to get understanding from their parents, as well as gain self-esteem through activities such as sport. There is a huge number of people they can't reach due to lack of volunteers and lack of funds, which I think is a problem for many youth programmes, not just in the Muslim community.
With regard to your first paragraph, were do they get the idea that their conservative mosque culture etc. isn't conservative enough? Why would they think that being even more extreme is the answer or Allah's will?
Para 2 : Feeling part of a community/society/culture involves a lot more than just the 'surface' stuff. So why is it that their Muslim background isn't giving them that deep sense of belonging? (please note these are also rhetorical questions, I don't necessarily expect you to provide comprehensive answers).
Para 3 : That sounds like just being a teenager to me.
Last sentence of Para 4 : I wouldn't know about your teenage years but I do know that teenagers generally, and for myself when I was one long, long ago, that this is the time when one is looking for some big answer to life; some glorious guiding principle to live by, and that sort of stuff.... Also, one's judgement in those years is not very well emotionally grounded.
Para 5 : I always find it odd that the responsibility for these things goes to organisations/government etc. It is the parents job; with say grandparents, to do this job of providing these character building, self esteem, and what not, needs of children. This being a task starting from day one. I'm not saying this is easy nor that the way society is organised that there is enough time for this, as society seems more focused on jobs and finance than the home.
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I would expect a young man, born, raised and educated here would be able to find one thing to say that was good about the UK, but I was mistaken.
He was from somewhere else. He lives here but he is from a different place. I would wager there are many like him.
One has to ask oneself why they came here in the first place and where they have come from?......and who let them in?
Quite obviously the multicultural idea has failed and such disparate cultures can not exist along side each other where one has a deep history in a land, and, therefore, things need to be adjusted.
Probably would have come for economic reasons, which coincidentally is the same reason why Britain went abroad to colonise foreign lands, as opposed to because the Brits wanted to immerse themselves in a foreign culture.
What about the 2011 riots and people like Russell Brand who call for revolution and is also very critical of various aspects of Britain, or the problems with gang-culture in general ? It seems like there are lots of cultures and sub-cultures within British culture - the mutli-cultural issues are just one aspect. The young man was at least just being critical, not violent.
Well, yes, history coming back to bite us on the ass. No such thing as a free lunch.
And again, yes. There's the neo-class war of the 99%ers against the 1% elites. Talk about two parallel societies/cultures under the same roof.
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I notice that Gabriella is once again trying to drag this post away from the original issue. The propensity for Islamic intolerance.
It has been said .......that since 1948 over 11 million Muslims have been killed 90% of them by other Muslims. It was nothing to do with the Western need to secure oil supplies. Simply google Muslim on Muslim violence to see for your self. Here is one such link to the facts.
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/staggering-statistics-on-muslims-killing-muslims-2/
It is not the CIA who force Muslims to push homosexuals off high buildings or find other entertaining ways to dispose of them.
It was not the Russian invasion of Afghanistan that caused Muslims to bury naughty women up to their necks and then pelt them to death with rocks.
It was not British troops in Iraq who started the craze for chopping the limbs off minor miscreants as a form of public entertainment.
It is not Western Imperialists who are denying young girls access to education.
I could keep on but I suspect you can all think of more examples for yourselves.
Gabriella, when will you face facts and deal with the point;
And yes I know there are lots of decent Muslims about but still it cannot be denied.
There is something about that book.........!!!sic.
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With regard to your first paragraph, were do they get the idea that their conservative mosque culture etc. isn't conservative enough? Why would they think that being even more extreme is the answer or Allah's will?
They probably ran into an individual or group that preached a different ideology - Qutbism for one - and were shown acceptance and understanding, therefore developed an emotional connection with the group rather than with their family (who they couldn't communicate with) or peers (who saw them as different). There were various Salafist organisations in the UK courtesy of Saudi oil money who would hand out pamphlets and talk to people outside mosques in the 90s - my husband and I have run into them - they talked about liberating Palestine from occupation. The Qutbists however were against the Salafists because the Salafists weren't advocating violence and taking the offensive to fight and conquer non-Muslims. Qutbists believe in a different ideology where they think individuals have the right to declare other Muslims as apostates and kill them for not conforming to their particular ideology of what Islam represents to them. This idea came direct from the writings of Qutb, an intellectual and a Muslim who originally had secularist tendencies, went to study in the US for 2 years on a scholarship, returned to Egypt just before the 1952 coup by Nasser, and was later imprisoned, tortured and executed by the Egyptian government in 1966 after trying to assassinate Nasser and by this time had written a pretty extreme manifesto couched in Islamic terms. He was a leading figure in the Muslim Brotherhood, which gained popular support in the 1950s onwards through their charity and community work amongst the rural poor, unemployed etc
Wiki outlines some of the main tenets of Qutbist ideology e.g. the Muslim community (or the Muslim community outside of a vanguard fighting to reestablish it) "has been extinct for a few centuries" having reverted to Godless ignorance (Jahiliyya), and must be reconquered for Islam.
The importance of offensive Jihad to eliminate Jahiliyya not only from the Islamic homeland but from the face of the earth
The Qutbists were out to create some kind of transnational fighting force for Muslims, like NATO for the West. They were quite successful at spreading their manifesto in certain areas where there was poverty and political instability.
Para 2 : Feeling part of a community/society/culture involves a lot more than just the 'surface' stuff. So why is it that their Muslim background isn't giving them that deep sense of belonging? (please note these are also rhetorical questions, I don't necessarily expect you to provide comprehensive answers).
I think it may have something to do with not being sophisticated enough in their thinking to deal with uncertainty and maybe an element of self-loathing for being drawn to the sexual freedom in British culture when this isn't even discussed in their own homes. It's easy to be certain and have a sense of belonging when you are not presented with ambiguity or appealing alternatives, which is presumably what life in some village in Pakistan or India is like - very little exposure to alternatives.
But in the UK there are so many options and so much freedom, and the internal uncertainty that creates is something that many of us navigate as best we can, usually by balancing uncertainty in some areas with a focus on educational or sporting or work achievements, and also by accepting that we will make mistakes and not beating ourselves up too much about it, and accepting that all we can do is try; but I think all that choice and uncertainty causes some people to feel increasingly unsure of themselves, bad about themselves and feel alienated and they then run into these extreme groups that provide them with certainty and a sense of purpose and belonging because charismatic and controlling members of these groups are so convinced of the righteousness of their cause.
Para 3 : That sounds like just being a teenager to me.
Yes - it's a real joy being the parent of one. It's payback for the grief I probably gave my own parents.
Last sentence of Para 4 : I wouldn't know about your teenage years but I do know that teenagers generally, and for myself when I was one long, long ago, that this is the time when one is looking for some big answer to life; some glorious guiding principle to live by, and that sort of stuff.... Also, one's judgement in those years is not very well emotionally grounded.
Yes - I remember sounding off about changing the world and I suppose violence is appealing. I remember befriending a British mercenary I met while doing TA training at university - he had run off to Angola in the 70s when he was about 17 and been shot in the leg, captured, put on trial and sentenced to 16 years in an Angolan jail. The British man who recruited him in the UK was apparently unrepentant about recruiting mercenaries.
Para 5 : I always find it odd that the responsibility for these things goes to organisations/government etc. It is the parents job; with say grandparents, to do this job of providing these character building, self esteem, and what not, needs of children. This being a task starting from day one. I'm not saying this is easy nor that the way society is organised that there is enough time for this, as society seems more focused on jobs and finance than the home.
True - but a lot of parents don't think it is important or don't have the money or time. My parents didn't think it was important or affordable or were at work, but I carved some freedom for myself at university to make my own decisions about this - hence I joined the OTC where you were paid for doing training.
Hence I prioritise this for my own kids along with good grades. For example, even though my 15 year old daughter is fasting she decided to still play tennis and cricket at a school club and is doing ballet while fasting. She is good at kung fu and a competent swimmer. And is currently out with her friends at a movie to take her mind off fasting.
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You make it sound like your good daughter is trying to make the best of a bad job with this fasting business ?!!?!!?
A kind of 'I don't WANT to do it but I HAVE to so......'
It was also interesting that the Hindu gent on the right mentioned about conversions & made a great point of it being like at the top of a mountain to start with & going all down one side, only then having to go back up & again & go down the other side. !!!!
Some converts, however, don't seem to have gone down ONE side very far before going backwards !!! ;)
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I notice that Gabriella is once again trying to drag this post away from the original issue. The propensity for Islamic intolerance.
It has been said .......that since 1948 over 11 million Muslims have been killed 90% of them by other Muslims. It was nothing to do with the Western need to secure oil supplies. Simply google Muslim on Muslim violence to see for your self. Here is one such link to the facts.
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/staggering-statistics-on-muslims-killing-muslims-2/
It is not the CIA who force Muslims to push homosexuals off high buildings or find other entertaining ways to dispose of them.
It was not the Russian invasion of Afghanistan that caused Muslims to bury naughty women up to their necks and then pelt them to death with rocks.
It was not British troops in Iraq who started the craze for chopping the limbs off minor miscreants as a form of public entertainment.
It is not Western Imperialists who are denying young girls access to education.
I could keep on but I suspect you can all think of more examples for yourselves.
Gabriella, when will you face facts and deal with the point;
And yes I know there are lots of decent Muslims about but still it cannot be denied.
There is something about that book.........!!!sic.
It might help if you find and paste the relevant bits in the book relating to throwing homosexuals off buildings etc. it might help me know specifically what book you are talking about - the Quran or Hadith or the opinion of scholars recorded in a book.
Books influence culture but I think you will find it hard to isolate any book as the cause of violence in society - it is usually a combination of factors.
What do you suggest should be done about intolerant interpretations of Islam? What are your foreign policy suggestions to deal with the problem in Saudi or Pakistan etc? What are your domestic policy suggestions for the government to deal with radical preachers in the UK - they tried to kick them out but got bogged down in lots of Human Rights red tape.
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G
Do the Hadiths hold ANY value to you ever or only when they serve your purpose???
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G
You make it sound like your good daughter is trying to make the best of a bad job with this fasting business ?!!?!!?
A kind of 'I don't WANT to do it but I HAVE to so......'
Yes - fasting can be kind of boring as a lot of social activities revolve around food. She likes the social aspect of breaking fast and the social aspect of fitting in with her cousins and extended family so that is probably part of the motivation to fast. I have no idea if she will continue it once she goes to university and spends less time with her family. There is something enjoyable about the month of Ramadan - she says she feels more religious during this month and finds she wants to fast and pray, but says she feels lazy to do it when it is not Ramadan.
It was also interesting that the Hindu gent on the right mentioned about conversions & made a great point of it being like at the top of a mountain to start with & going all down one side, only then having to go back up & again & go down the other side. !!!!
Some converts, however, don't seem to have gone down ONE side very far before going backwards !!! ;)
I didn't see the programme so don't know what Hindu gent you are referring to or understand the point about the mountain. Not really sure what the problem is about converts - different approaches work for different people so am assuming that once someone finds an approach that works for them and which they can easily connect with, they don't change it.
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G
Do the Hadiths hold ANY value to you ever or only when they serve your purpose???
They can be an interesting read - depends on the Hadith and if I think it is relevant or provides some insight or perspective for an issue in my life. Since there are contradictions and different ones are considered strong or weak or authentic or inauthentic by different Muslim schools of thought - they are food for thought to get alternative perspectives.
Individuals have various different interpretations of Quranic verses, with different scholars and often opposing schools of Muslim thought developing and building on themes or metaphors or narratives in certain verses. All food for thought.
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Of course, I agree but what if a religion says ALL else are most definately wrong & you are right in your choice? Meaning all else are second class.
I have no probs with converts, it's just the way they tend to throw themselves so far into it when they 'join-the-club' so to speak.
May we ask how old your daughter is, please? More religious means what, exactly?
Pretty sure you said you were born into a Hindu family so how can your daughter have cousins & an 'extended family' who are fasting now?
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Of course, I agree but what if a religion says ALL else are most definately wrong & you are right in your choice? Meaning all else are second class.
Well, most beliefs (not just religious ones) consist of people believing they are right and others are wrong because if you thought your belief was wrong, presumably you wouldn't live your life by it. It only becomes an issue if you are violent to people whose beliefs you disagree with.
I have no probs with converts, it's just the way they tend to throw themselves so far into it when they 'join-the-club' so to speak.
Do you feel the same way about converts to a political or economic belief or a particular hobby or passion, or is it just religious converts that you find distasteful. Since the convert has no control over the Trippy preferences or criteria about what behaviour is "acceptable" levels of throwing themselves into their religion, I guess it will have to remain your problem to come to terms with. So long as a convert isn't breaking any laws, I don't think their level of interest in their new religion or politics is a big problem for me - we all have to learn to be tolerant of each other's beliefs, views and interests.
May we ask how old your daughter is, please? More religious means what, exactly?
As I said - she is 15. More religious means less distracted by day to day stuff - for example when it is not Ramadan, stopping what you are doing to take ablution (ritual washing) and then pray feels difficult but during Ramadan it feels easy. Fasting is difficult when it is not Ramadan but during Ramadan it is easy after the first couple of days. I haven't eaten or drunk anything since 2.30 this morning but I feel fine, I don't feel hungry or thirsty. I can work, do normal chores and last couple of years I have sometimes gone for a run or done kung fu training while fasting.
[Pretty sure you said you were born into a Hindu family so how can your daughter have cousins & an 'extended family' who are fasting now?
My husband's family - he has a lot of siblings so she has lots of cousins, plus his family is very sociable plus there are community gatherings to break fast together and pray. I went to bed at 1.30am last night because I was clearing up after one of these events.
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G
To be honest it doesn't matter one jot what people believe, for me. A belief is ONLY that ! A BELIEF !!! Fact has little to do with it or it wouldn't be a belief, would it?
What bothers me is when they then go on to say everyone else NOT of that faith is totally wrong, as I said before. You know as well as I do Islam says this so YOU have to, as well, no? At least think it although I won't expect you to confirm this here ?!!?!?
We're seeing the results of this at the mo in the middle east & north Africa.
Even being in a 'different' group WITHIN the main 'political party' is frowned on & this can very easily escalate into extreme violence, Sunni - Shia etc.
To be 'tolerant' is such a horrible phrase, no?
Must I be tolerant of a child abuser because they BELIEVE they're doing the child good in the end?
So your ?ex? husband is Hindu but your family are Muslims? What did you 'convert' from then to become a Muslim?
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G
To be honest it doesn't matter one jot what people believe, for me. A belief is ONLY that ! A BELIEF !!! Fact has little to do with it or it wouldn't be a belief, would it?
What bothers me is when they then go on to say everyone else NOT of that faith is totally wrong, as I said before.
You must have got really wound up during the elections then with different people labelling the political beliefs of others as totally wrong and immoral. You must also get really wound up when people think your morals or ethics are wrong.
You know as well as I do Islam says this so YOU have to, as well, no?
No I don't know that Islam says this and personally I don't view you or the extremists in IS as the people who get to define Islam for everyone else. So yes, you and other Muslims can believe your interpretation and choose to ignore the verse Quran 2:62
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."
But there are lots of Muslims who don't feel they know what will happen to them or anyone else and don't walk around believing they are right and others are totally wrong. By the way Allah is the Arabic word for a monotheistic concept of god.
We're seeing the results of this at the mo in the middle east & north Africa.
We have also seen the results of lots of Muslims just peacefully getting on with their lives or in some cases (Burma, Bosnia, Sri Lanka, Guantanamo, Palestine) being persecuted themselves by people who think the Muslims are totally wrong for being Muslims or for not having the same values, morals, ethical beliefs as their persecutors.
Even being in a 'different' group WITHIN the main 'political party' is frowned on & this can very easily escalate into extreme violence, Sunni - Shia etc.
Yes that happens in various political parties so not just a Muslim problem. Something to do with human nature.
To be 'tolerant' is such a horrible phrase, no?
No I don't think it is a horrible phrase. I think tolerance is good under certain circumstances and inappropriate in other circumstances.
Must I be tolerant of a child abuser because they BELIEVE they're doing the child good in the end?
I am not aware of anyone asking you to tolerate any child abusers around you.
So your ?ex? husband is Hindu but your family are Muslims? What did you 'convert' from then to become a Muslim?
It's really not that difficult to understand - my parents are Hindu, my husband is Muslim. I have no ex. I was an atheist throughout my teens and became a Muslim when I was 23.
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Gabriella, I'm not sure I recognise this 'Bristish culture' that you struggle with. Yes, there is a sub-culture that I don't identify with either - I don't get the group among my peers who seem to have stopped developing in their twenties, who go out on the drink both midweek and at the weekend, who leave even the smallest children with inexperienced teenage babysitters, who obsess over clothes and diets and celebrities. But that's fine, because I also have good friends with whom I do identify, and my own sub cultures that I can share with many. And our culture varies so - even within the county where I live the north is very different from the south, take that over the country as a whole with rural, urban, affluent and deprived areas and it becomes harder to see what 'British culture' is - except that I think you will find elements of it that reflect all of us, if you know where to look.
'Standing up to your parents' isn't something I've heard from my daughter or her peers as a part of our culture. Again it's probably a demographic thing but the biggest problem I hear about is parents pushing their kids too hard and kids feeling they aren't measuring up. No doubt it will come but then I felt pissed off with every adult at 14 and by 17 I didn't.
I don't think it is liberalisation that leads to self-absorption so much as a mix of marketing in our media, which is very image-driven, and an over-focus on rights and not responsibilities. A truly liberal country has people who are resilient and who stand on their own two feet whereas we have a state that encourages nannying - the opposite of liberal.
Randomly throwing this in, but I also think the helplessness taught in schools over issues such as climate change doesn't help. If one sees little hope for the future then why not hedonism - or Jihad?
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Gabriella, I'm not sure I recognise this 'Bristish culture' that you struggle with. Yes, there is a sub-culture that I don't identify with either - I don't get the group among my peers who seem to have stopped developing in their twenties, who go out on the drink both midweek and at the weekend, who leave even the smallest children with inexperienced teenage babysitters, who obsess over clothes and diets and celebrities. But that's fine, because I also have good friends with whom I do identify, and my own sub cultures that I can share with many. And our culture varies so - even within the county where I live the north is very different from the south, take that over the country as a whole with rural, urban, affluent and deprived areas and it becomes harder to see what 'British culture' is - except that I think you will find elements of it that reflect all of us, if you know where to look.
'Standing up to your parents' isn't something I've heard from my daughter or her peers as a part of our culture. Again it's probably a demographic thing but the biggest problem I hear about is parents pushing their kids too hard and kids feeling they aren't measuring up. No doubt it will come but then I felt pissed off with every adult at 14 and by 17 I didn't.
I don't think it is liberalisation that leads to self-absorption so much as a mix of marketing in our media, which is very image-driven, and an over-focus on rights and not responsibilities. A truly liberal country has people who are resilient and who stand on their own two feet whereas we have a state that encourages nannying - the opposite of liberal.
Randomly throwing this in, but I also think the helplessness taught in schools over issues such as climate change doesn't help. If one sees little hope for the future then why not hedonism - or Jihad?
I agree. I think the point I was trying to make was that British culture changes depending on who you talk to. For some children of some relatively affluent Londoners in a private school it means something entirely different to how others would define British culture. I don't come across too many people obsessing about celebrities and yes I find friends amongst the parents of my children's friends but a lot of the time the parents appear to feel very helpless and unsure about whether they have any rights to insist their children follow certain values while living in their home - the parents often seem motivated by a desire to have their children's approval. It reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes cartoons:
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1985/12/02
Usually when people cut themselves off from society they are risk averse and driven by fear and uncertainty of unknown elements, so maybe the areas in Britain where Muslims cut themselves off from society is driven by fear of opening themselves up to some of the sub-cultures in their surrounding society because they have exaggerated worries about where that might lead them.
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Gabriella, I'm not sure I recognise this 'Bristish culture' that you struggle with. Yes, there is a sub-culture that I don't identify with either - I don't get the group among my peers who seem to have stopped developing in their twenties, who go out on the drink both midweek and at the weekend, who leave even the smallest children with inexperienced teenage babysitters, who obsess over clothes and diets and celebrities. But that's fine, because I also have good friends with whom I do identify, and my own sub cultures that I can share with many. And our culture varies so - even within the county where I live the north is very different from the south, take that over the country as a whole with rural, urban, affluent and deprived areas and it becomes harder to see what 'British culture' is - except that I think you will find elements of it that reflect all of us, if you know where to look.
'Standing up to your parents' isn't something I've heard from my daughter or her peers as a part of our culture. Again it's probably a demographic thing but the biggest problem I hear about is parents pushing their kids too hard and kids feeling they aren't measuring up. No doubt it will come but then I felt pissed off with every adult at 14 and by 17 I didn't.
I don't think it is liberalisation that leads to self-absorption so much as a mix of marketing in our media, which is very image-driven, and an over-focus on rights and not responsibilities. A truly liberal country has people who are resilient and who stand on their own two feet whereas we have a state that encourages nannying - the opposite of liberal.
Randomly throwing this in, but I also think the helplessness taught in schools over issues such as climate change doesn't help. If one sees little hope for the future then why not hedonism - or Jihad?
I agree. I think the point I was trying to make was that British culture changes depending on who you talk to. For some children of some relatively affluent Londoners in a private school it means something entirely different to how others would define British culture. I don't come across too many people obsessing about celebrities and yes I find friends amongst the parents of my children's friends but a lot of the time the parents appear to feel very helpless and unsure about whether they have any rights to insist their children follow certain values while living in their home - the parents often seem motivated by a desire to have their children's approval. It reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes cartoons:
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1985/12/02
Usually when people cut themselves off from society they are risk averse and driven by fear and uncertainty of unknown elements, so maybe the areas in Britain where Muslims cut themselves off from society is driven by fear of opening themselves up to some of the sub-cultures in their surrounding society because they have exaggerated worries about where that might lead them.
Well if you look at our print media you'd think celebs were all anyone ever thinks about, even our broadsheets. As to the parenting thing, I think there have always been parents who try not to upset their children and who lose all discipline as a result. I see quite a few young adults - men especially - who still live at home and are over-indulged with their mums still cooking and washing for them and girlfriends allowed to stay over. staggering that they have girlfriends at all when you think about it. But they don't rebel - why on earth would they?
I agree about conservative communities turning inwards out of fear. I think this has been encouraged by various arms of the state over the years - 'multiculturalism' was at least in part a guise for a push for secularism through removing Christianity as part of our national identity, but it backfired massively in that it allowed conservative forms of other religion to flourish unchecked and without criticism. Add to that the enthusiasm for some local authorities to treat each group as separate entities rather than a community - so there are drop in centres for the West Indian community and funding for Asian women's groups - and it isn't hard to see why in some areas our communities are so fractured into 'us' and 'not us'.
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This post has gone the way so many have before it.
A religion from the person's POV is almost entirely viewed by their own personality.
Gabriella has 'proved' this again.
She doesn't see, or WON'T see, the conditional differences of her CHOSEN religion, instead seeing what's conveneint at any given time.
The religions chosen says sooo much about the person themselves & nothing really about the faith itself. It's as I said before about choosing a faith. ;)
As with most religions, Islam is a mixed bag of incidents & 'remedies' for at that time !!!! THIS solution may work now but maybe WON'T later on.
That's Life anyway !!!
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This post has gone the way so many have before it.
A religion from the person's POV is almost entirely viewed by their own personality.
Gabriella has 'proved' this again.
Not surprising really since Nearly Sane (I think I am correct in saying this is what he is arguing) and I have consistently been making this very point - that religious interpretation and practice is a product of an individual's nature/ nurture, including how much they are influenced by social or peer pressure to conform to a particular interpretation of any belief, moral or ethic (religious or non-religious).
She doesn't see, or WON'T see, the conditional differences of her CHOSEN religion, instead seeing what's conveneint at any given time.
It's not just me. There is so much variation in religious interpretation and practice all over the world that clearly everyone is at it. I think it depends on how many different interpretations and ideas people are exposed to. In the UK ideas are exchanged more freely than in other countries but with the rise of the internet ideas are getting through to communities that were previously cut off from them. But at huge risk to the individual - Raif Badawi is a case in point - the Saudi internet blogger who was sentenced to prison and to be flogged for criticising Saudi clerics.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/saudi-arabia-is-teaching-isis-a-lesson-in-cruelty-yet-the-uk-continues-to-defend-them-10324161.html
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Just to note that Gabriella is pretty much spot on in relation to what my position is. I would add that religion is part of the whole environment and there is a feedback loop from the individual to the societal across all influences. I would also add related to a point Rhiannon made earlier that I don't think it is a question so much of multiculturalism that is the issue as its related support of relativism. People make the error gratified accept that there are no absolutes that there can be no standards, sharmweather it us the acceptance of no absolutes that allow us to derive standards from what is chosen willingly rather than imposed
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Just to note that Gabriella is pretty much spot on in relation to what my position is. I would add that religion is part of the whole environment and there is a feedback loop from the individual to the societal across all influences. I would also add related to a point Rhiannon made earlier that I don't think it is a question so much of multiculturalism that is the issue as its related support of relativism. People make the error gratified accept that there are no absolutes that there can be no standards, sharmweather it us the acceptance of no absolutes that allow us to derive standards from what is chosen willingly rather than imposed
With regards to multi-culturalism, I remember my dad telling me a story about when he first came to Britain in 1971 to do his Masters in Civil Engineering at Birmingham university (financially supported by my mother working as a doctor at a hospital in Birmingham). Once he finished and got a job with an engineering firm in Kent, he could not rent a room for him and my mother in Kent because of racism. He eventually changed jobs and worked in London, with my mother working as a Haematologist at the local hospital, rented a place in East London and bought a car and my grandparents brought over my brother and me. He said some local white kids were running on top of the cars parked in the parking area, and he went out and yelled at them and told them off. He was visited by the police who gave him a warning, not the kids. But dad just accepted that in British culture yelling at kids, other than your own, was not acceptable, unlike back in his home country. He did decide though that he didn't want his kids becoming friends with those type of children.
I have heard this kind of thing discussed by a few members of middle-class Hindu and Muslim communities - they are baffled by the lack of insistence from authority that people of all cultures, whether white skinned or brown or black, just obey the law. Maybe the multi-cultural problem came about because people in authority couldn't make allowances for sub-cultures for native white people without making the same allowances for brown people?
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With regard to your first paragraph, were do they get the idea that their conservative mosque culture etc. isn't conservative enough? Why would they think that being even more extreme is the answer or Allah's will?
They probably ran into an individual or group that preached a different ideology - Qutbism for one - and were shown acceptance and understanding, therefore developed an emotional connection with the group rather than with their family (who they couldn't communicate with) or peers (who saw them as different). There were various Salafist organisations in the UK courtesy of Saudi oil money who would hand out pamphlets and talk to people outside mosques in the 90s - my husband and I have run into them - they talked about liberating Palestine from occupation. The Qutbists however were against the Salafists because the Salafists weren't advocating violence and taking the offensive to fight and conquer non-Muslims. Qutbists believe in a different ideology where they think individuals have the right to declare other Muslims as apostates and kill them for not conforming to their particular ideology of what Islam represents to them. This idea came direct from the writings of Qutb, an intellectual and a Muslim who originally had secularist tendencies, went to study in the US for 2 years on a scholarship, returned to Egypt just before the 1952 coup by Nasser, and was later imprisoned, tortured and executed by the Egyptian government in 1966 after trying to assassinate Nasser and by this time had written a pretty extreme manifesto couched in Islamic terms. He was a leading figure in the Muslim Brotherhood, which gained popular support in the 1950s onwards through their charity and community work amongst the rural poor, unemployed etc
Wiki outlines some of the main tenets of Qutbist ideology e.g. the Muslim community (or the Muslim community outside of a vanguard fighting to reestablish it) "has been extinct for a few centuries" having reverted to Godless ignorance (Jahiliyya), and must be reconquered for Islam.
The importance of offensive Jihad to eliminate Jahiliyya not only from the Islamic homeland but from the face of the earth
The Qutbists were out to create some kind of transnational fighting force for Muslims, like NATO for the West. They were quite successful at spreading their manifesto in certain areas where there was poverty and political instability.
Para 2 : Feeling part of a community/society/culture involves a lot more than just the 'surface' stuff. So why is it that their Muslim background isn't giving them that deep sense of belonging? (please note these are also rhetorical questions, I don't necessarily expect you to provide comprehensive answers).
I think it may have something to do with not being sophisticated enough in their thinking to deal with uncertainty and maybe an element of self-loathing for being drawn to the sexual freedom in British culture when this isn't even discussed in their own homes. It's easy to be certain and have a sense of belonging when you are not presented with ambiguity or appealing alternatives, which is presumably what life in some village in Pakistan or India is like - very little exposure to alternatives.
But in the UK there are so many options and so much freedom, and the internal uncertainty that creates is something that many of us navigate as best we can, usually by balancing uncertainty in some areas with a focus on educational or sporting or work achievements, and also by accepting that we will make mistakes and not beating ourselves up too much about it, and accepting that all we can do is try; but I think all that choice and uncertainty causes some people to feel increasingly unsure of themselves, bad about themselves and feel alienated and they then run into these extreme groups that provide them with certainty and a sense of purpose and belonging because charismatic and controlling members of these groups are so convinced of the righteousness of their cause.
Para 3 : That sounds like just being a teenager to me.
Yes - it's a real joy being the parent of one. It's payback for the grief I probably gave my own parents.
Last sentence of Para 4 : I wouldn't know about your teenage years but I do know that teenagers generally, and for myself when I was one long, long ago, that this is the time when one is looking for some big answer to life; some glorious guiding principle to live by, and that sort of stuff.... Also, one's judgement in those years is not very well emotionally grounded.
Yes - I remember sounding off about changing the world and I suppose violence is appealing. I remember befriending a British mercenary I met while doing TA training at university - he had run off to Angola in the 70s when he was about 17 and been shot in the leg, captured, put on trial and sentenced to 16 years in an Angolan jail. The British man who recruited him in the UK was apparently unrepentant about recruiting mercenaries.
Para 5 : I always find it odd that the responsibility for these things goes to organisations/government etc. It is the parents job; with say grandparents, to do this job of providing these character building, self esteem, and what not, needs of children. This being a task starting from day one. I'm not saying this is easy nor that the way society is organised that there is enough time for this, as society seems more focused on jobs and finance than the home.
True - but a lot of parents don't think it is important or don't have the money or time. My parents didn't think it was important or affordable or were at work, but I carved some freedom for myself at university to make my own decisions about this - hence I joined the OTC where you were paid for doing training.
Hence I prioritise this for my own kids along with good grades. For example, even though my 15 year old daughter is fasting she decided to still play tennis and cricket at a school club and is doing ballet while fasting. She is good at kung fu and a competent swimmer. And is currently out with her friends at a movie to take her mind off fasting.
Para 1 : May be the reasons, in part, for these extreme Muslim groups could be partially linked to your second paragraph. That is, the incursion of other worldly views which have been imposed on the Muslim world and outlook - what caused al-Qaeda? Especially from the Americans. What always comes to mind to me is what is claimed the American Indians said of the white man, "White man speaks with fork tongue!" This seems to be a common policy for all politicians throughout the globe. But America and the EU have heavily geared the trade deals in their favour - this is one of the problems for Africa and why we are seeing so many now trying to enter Europe; African nations have basically been starved unless they had something we really needed.
Para 2 : I basically agree. Having one foot in one world and another in another world which is substantially different can't do the constitution much good. Being offered something to escape both but still relates to ones over all background and feelings can seem very attractive; as long as you don't study the details too much.
Para 5 : In evolutionary terms women are thought to live longer than men so that they are fit enough to help with bringing up their grandchildren; passing on the tribes traditions and all that. But the way our modern society is arranged we don't live in such close knit extended families anymore. No wonder parents can't find the time to instil firm cultural values into their kids, that is, have this task shared out into the family circle.
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WOW THIS post has suddenly taken a turn for the best
G
Really sorry about your parents but we ALL know of Asian resilience & it's great they managed to find 'their place' in it all. ;D
I think once we get away from using religion & religious thought here it all seems to ascend to, for me, a better level. Certainly a more interesting one, in any case !!!.
It's not about LOVE in the smaller sense of the word we use on a regular basis but using love as a weapon against HATE which seems to be what's happened with groups like IS etc.
Nick
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Moderator: I have split off the posts on Unconditional Love to a new topic on the Religion and Ethics board.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?board=7.0
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Para 1 : May be the reasons, in part, for these extreme Muslim groups could be partially linked to your second paragraph. That is, the incursion of other worldly views which have been imposed on the Muslim world and outlook - what caused al-Qaeda? Especially from the Americans. What always comes to mind to me is what is claimed the American Indians said of the white man, "White man speaks with fork tongue!" This seems to be a common policy for all politicians throughout the globe. But America and the EU have heavily geared the trade deals in their favour - this is one of the problems for Africa and why we are seeing so many now trying to enter Europe; African nations have basically been starved unless they had something we really needed.
Para 2 : I basically agree. Having one foot in one world and another in another world which is substantially different can't do the constitution much good. Being offered something to escape both but still relates to ones over all background and feelings can seem very attractive; as long as you don't study the details too much.
Para 5 : In evolutionary terms women are thought to live longer than men so that they are fit enough to help with bringing up their grandchildren; passing on the tribes traditions and all that. But the way our modern society is arranged we don't live in such close knit extended families anymore. No wonder parents can't find the time to instil firm cultural values into their kids, that is, have this task shared out into the family circle.
Yes, it's really complex when you read about all the economic, political and social factors that led to this mess. US expansion is one factor but there are many other internal factors. British withdrawal from the ME left a power vacuum, and the reliance on oil was a major factor as people were prepared to go to any lengths to stabilise supply and profit from it. Especially after 1973 when OPEC cut supply and oil prices shot up and governments realised how devestating it would be to their economies if they were cut off from access to oil.
I don't think there is anything wrong with new ideas seeping into cultures, but yes there could be resentment if it happens suddenly and the change does not appear gradual. I imagine for the Arabs it was similar to how people here feel about multi-culturalism. Globalisation was inevitable though as travel and communication become easier so it was always going to happen, but change happens much faster now than it did before.
I think Arab nationalism combined with secularism led to abuses of power - lots of critics were imprisoned and tortured and I doubt that was because of the US or UK though they colluded in it by assisting those governments militarily and with intelligence and paying bribes to secure contracts to benefit their own national interests. This type of extremism by Arab governments to stifle dissent led to extreme responses from political rivals under the banner of Islamism and Qutubism.
But being unwilling to compromise, being unwilling to let go of old tribal or political grievances, corruption, stifling a free press and nepotism, patronage, envy were already part of the culture of the Arab political leaders of the time so I think the Arabs were let down by their leaders.
Regarding culture and extended family, I agree with your point, but those communities which are close-knit still have to face the fact that their kids will be drawn to the freedoms of British culture and there will be a conflict - which teenager is going to turn down the opportunity to do what they want - they already think they know it all. It's only when you get older that you acquire the wisdom to realise you don't know it all, not even close. It then becomes an issue of how protective a parent can be with someone who thinks they know it all but clearly doesn't, and who ends up dealing with the consequences of bad teenage decisions. It doesn't surprise me that parents decide to retreat to their community and become insular to try to reduce the exposure and risk of the consequences of their teenage off-springs' bad decisions, made at a time when the teenager is still developing an identity, adequate impulse control, when their brains have not finished growing and when they have a distorted view of the world because they have only been exposed to it through the safety net of their parents. I certainly only feel like I acquired some wisdom after my brain had finished growing at about 23 and after Life had kicked me in the teeth a couple of times.
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WOW THIS post has suddenly taken a turn for the best
G
Really sorry about your parents but we ALL know of Asian resilience & it's great they managed to find 'their place' in it all. ;D
I think once we get away from using religion & religious thought here it all seems to ascend to, for me, a better level. Certainly a more interesting one, in any case !!!.
It's not about LOVE in the smaller sense of the word we use on a regular basis but using love as a weapon against HATE which seems to be what's happened with groups like IS etc.
Nick
This is a Religion & Ethics board - so I kind of expected when I came on here that religious thought would be discussed. I find it interesting - I don't have any need to trash anyone else's religion but I can relate to your need to do so - having once been an atheist myself.
The love part of the thread has been split off to another board. The only way love would work as a weapon against IS hate or hate against Muslims is if people have their basic needs met - such as shelter, secuirty, food, jobs and they also open their minds to alternative perspectives, which kind of depends on the information and opportunities and education they have access to.
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Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture.
Not part of my British culture.
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Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture.
Not part of my British culture.
Nor mine.
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I have heard this kind of thing discussed by a few members of middle-class Hindu and Muslim communities - they are baffled by the lack of insistence from authority that people of all cultures, whether white skinned or brown or black, just obey the law. Maybe the multi-cultural problem came about because people in authority couldn't make allowances for sub-cultures for native white people without making the same allowances for brown people?
So, let me see if I am correct here. This country has laws, enacted through legislation and consistent with the fundamental principles of the nation, however there is a lack of a requirement from the authorities who enact these laws, a lack of insistence on their part, for people to obey them?
Following on from this, is that those same authorities would make allowances for white people, but because they would get caught out by the brown people who would have to obey laws whites had "allowances" for, they are unable to do this.
This is the cause of our culturally fractured society?
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Firstly I'm NOT an atheist. I thought I'd made that clear.
I DO err very greatly on the side of Hinduism, I thought THAT might have been a bit obvious ?!!?!?!?!?
People NOT of a particular religion very often 'see' things adherents don't or won't see because of personal vested interests, maybe?
Your second half I can totally relate to. ;)
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Hence my 15 year old daughter gets encouragement from her friends to "stand up to her parents", which apparently is an important aspect of British culture.
Not part of my British culture.
Nor mine.
Possibly this kind of teenage rebellion against parents is just a London private school sub-culture within British culture then, if it doesn't happen where you are.
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I have heard this kind of thing discussed by a few members of middle-class Hindu and Muslim communities - they are baffled by the lack of insistence from authority that people of all cultures, whether white skinned or brown or black, just obey the law. Maybe the multi-cultural problem came about because people in authority couldn't make allowances for sub-cultures for native white people without making the same allowances for brown people?
So, let me see if I am correct here. This country has laws, enacted through legislation and consistent with the fundamental principles of the nation, however there is a lack of a requirement from the authorities who enact these laws, a lack of insistence on their part, for people to obey them?
Following on from this, is that those same authorities would make allowances for white people, but because they would get caught out by the brown people who would have to obey laws whites had "allowances" for, they are unable to do this.
This is the cause of our culturally fractured society?
Caught out by the brown people? Based on reports written by white people, it would have to be a policy that applies to all races, otherwise it would raise accusations of institutional racism. Is it news to you that a particular individual (white, brown or black) can be held less culpable by the courts for a criminal offence because of their personal social circumstances e.g. poverty / under-privileged home life? Presumably why social worker reports can be included in information presented to a judge for sentencing. Various politicians (possibly right-wing I think) bring up the notion of some sort of under-class in Britain.
There are various studies purporting to show that greater social inequality leads to a less cohesive and more unhealthy society. One of the leading causes of social inequality is lack of jobs paying a living wage.
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Firstly I'm NOT an atheist. I thought I'd made that clear.
I DO err very greatly on the side of Hinduism, I thought THAT might have been a bit obvious ?!!?!?!?!?
People NOT of a particular religion very often 'see' things adherents don't or won't see because of personal vested interests, maybe?
Your second half I can totally relate to. ;)
You said you prefer discussions that do not incorporate religious thought so I thought you had dispensed with all religions.
Are you saying you only like discussions about Hinduism? Why spend so much time on the Muslim board? There is enough bad behaviour by Hindus in India - why not start topics on the Eastern religion board to address Hindu intolerance, rather than ignore the issue?
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Hindu intolerance, whatever THAT is, is more usually as a REACTION from something else. Remember I go to India regularly so can know first hand what goes on over there.
'Do not incorporate religious thought' Seems like there's some def context involved here. Can you find that please?
I find more BS on the Muslim board than the Eastern religions one so....... ;)
There's only a few Hindus on here anyway. Prob as many Muslims.
N
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Yes that's what the Muslims claim about their intolerance, but that claim doesn't excuse Hindu or Muslim intolerance.
Remember my mother grew up in India, went to medical school in Trivandrum, and my parents own a flat in Bangalore, which they go live in about 4 months of every year so they know what goes on there. And according to them Hindu intolerance is an issue in India. Oh and I have visited India a few times myself.
The issue of Hindu child brides, misogyny, Eve teasing, are also current issues in India.
The reason there is more BS on the Muslim boards is because you are a frequent visitor on here. When you start frequenting the Eastern religions board there will undoubtedly be more of your BS on the Eastern religions board.
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Well we won't be seeing you there as you know even less about your family's religion than the one you carelessly picked later on. ;) ;D
Some just can't see the truth when it smacks them in the face, eh ?!!?!?