Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hope on June 17, 2015, 09:28:16 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33156905
Rachel Dolezal, the daughter of two Caucasian parents, and adoptive sister of 4 Black American siblings, is a high-profile race activist in the States. In an interview with NBC News, she says that she had started to identify as black when she was about 5.
This item - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33159940 - looks at her background and the context in which she sits.
Do people believe that - in the long run - a controversy like this will help the Black American cause, or hinder it? Does having an advocate from outside of one's own community have a greater impact on the rest of society than having member of the majority community like Rachel self-identify as part of the minority community?
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Surely one can be an anti-racist activist without pretending to be black!
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Rachel appears to have problems. She has tried to make herself look - well, dark. Many, perhaps most, black people regard "blacking up" as offensive.
She also reported receiving anti-black hate mail which she reported to the police. Investigation showed that the most likely source of the offensive material was herself.
In answer to Hope, she risks making the cause she works for look ridiculous. There is no reason why a caucasian should not work for the African American cause, but her approach may well be harmful.
I wonder whether her self-identification with African Americans is similar to the feelings of having been "born in the wrong body" sometimes expressed by transgender people?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33156905
Rachel Dolezal, the daughter of two Caucasian parents, and adoptive sister of 4 Black American siblings, is a high-profile race activist in the States. In an interview with NBC News, she says that she had started to identify as black when she was about 5.
This item - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33159940 - looks at her background and the context in which she sits.
Do people believe that - in the long run - a controversy like this will help the Black American cause, or hinder it? Does having an advocate from outside of one's own community have a greater impact on the rest of society than having member of the majority community like Rachel self-identify as part of the minority community?
My two sons are mixed race, West Indian/white european and I asked them some time ago how they would classify themselves and they both consider themselves to be black.
For what it matters, my wife and I are what is generally considered to be white european.
Black or white classifications of people only matter if for any reason you let it; why such a lot of people let it matter, absolutely confounds me.
ippy
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My two sons are mixed race, West Indian/white european and I asked them some time ago how they would classify themselves and they both consider themselves to be black.
For what it matters, my wife and I are what is generally considered to be white european.
So, do we take it that your sons are 1) adopted, or 2) from a previous relationship?
The difference between your situation and that of Dolezal. She is - by birth - Caucasian. She is claiming to be of a different racial descent.
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We have a black adopted son.
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There's no absolute definition of what it is to be of one race, eg white or black, or another. One's ethnicity is a subjective matter and may well be different to that of the biological parents.
The "Black American cause" won't be hurt by having advocates of one ethnicity or another but will be hurt if the advocates are seen to be lying - Dolezal should have been honest about her situation and feelings and not tried/risked misleading the organisation.
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My two sons are mixed race, West Indian/white european and I asked them some time ago how they would classify themselves and they both consider themselves to be black.
For what it matters, my wife and I are what is generally considered to be white european.
So, do we take it that your sons are 1) adopted, or 2) from a previous relationship?
The difference between your situation and that of Dolezal. She is - by birth - Caucasian. She is claiming to be of a different racial descent.
Both adopted.
What does racial decent matter, I might find it a bit strange that someone that would in general terms be described as a white person describing themselves as black, but that's just me.
America is still inclined to be a very racist country and they although we almost share a language they are very foreign to us here in the UK and I just as much as a lot of other people here don't always remember this, I suppose it's a cultural difference as much as anything.
Going back to a nominally white person referring to themselves as black perhaps it's our cultural differences that make it difficult to understand the finer points of her school of thought; on thinking about it we are all every one of us Ex-Africans.
ippy
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I think the poor woman needs a bit of counselling. I feel sorry for her parents, who must be bewildered.
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I don't think you can claim to be black if you are white.
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But who decides whether you are white or black?
Since people can change their sex, which biology is mostly clear about, why can't they change their race, a rather woolly concept?
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Really ippy? Still inclined to be a very racist country, and it's cultural? Well of course there is racism, that will never go away. But unlike you, they voted for a black president, not once but twice. Race riots, they have had those, kinda like what happened in your Birmingham, Oldham and Bradford riots. And just like some of your police forces, some American police forces have been accused of racism. Now the interesting thing to me is the large number of you people voting for the far right. Not just in the UK but all over Europe. I wonder about that cultural thingy you wrote about ipster? I mean America and Canada both loved that forced assimilation policy brought here by the Brits.
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But race is a concept. Aside from a few illnesses that we know affect different ethnicities it is largely irrelevant.
I wonder if she felt a need to belong somewhere? Her actual heritage is a bit of a mix, as it is for many Caucasian Americans. I can kind of relate because as a Londoner my heritage is a bit of a mixed bag too and I needed to do some research to know where I come from. In a sense I envy the Welsh and Scots for having such strong senses of belonging and identity even though their nations are accidents of politics and history, lines drawn on a map. Perhaps she felt that in reinventing herself as a particular race she was gaining a community, an identity that she didn't feel before?
But I very much take HH's point about 'blacking up'. That is terribly bad form.
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I think she has very deep seated problems. Just been reading the interview with her brother on Buzzfeed and she really seems to hate her parents. One of my dad's brothers used to tell people he was adopted in order to get attention - he was a bit of a narcissist and probably what we'd call a sociopath these days. Who knows what Rachel Dolezal has going on?
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I read a transcript. I dunno, she probably needs therapy but if she has a personality disorder I'm not sure how successful it is for those.
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Really ippy? Still inclined to be a very racist country, and it's cultural? Well of course there is racism, that will never go away. But unlike you, they voted for a black president, not once but twice. Race riots, they have had those, kinda like what happened in your Birmingham, Oldham and Bradford riots. And just like some of your police forces, some American police forces have been accused of racism. Now the interesting thing to me is the large number of you people voting for the far right. Not just in the UK but all over Europe. I wonder about that cultural thingy you wrote about ipster? I mean America and Canada both loved that forced assimilation policy brought here by the Brits.
Sorry Woody I don't get: "forced assimilation policy brought here by the Brits", you would need to clarify that for me.
Oh by the way I detest the far right, Thatcher cured any kindly feelings I might have had for the right wing.
ippy
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But race is a concept. Aside from a few illnesses that we know affect different ethnicities it is largely irrelevant.
I wonder if she felt a need to belong somewhere? Her actual heritage is a bit of a mix, as it is for many Caucasian Americans. I can kind of relate because as a Londoner my heritage is a bit of a mixed bag too and I needed to do some research to know where I come from. In a sense I envy the Welsh and Scots for having such strong senses of belonging and identity even though their nations are accidents of politics and history, lines drawn on a map. Perhaps she felt that in reinventing herself as a particular race she was gaining a community, an identity that she didn't feel before?
But I very much take HH's point about 'blacking up'. That is terribly bad form.
I think if she had just said, yes I'm white but I relate to black culture and this is how I want to be, no one would have taken any notice.
But she didn't and it is that "falseness " that has upset some people.
The fact she lied, because that says more about her character.
It must be very upsetting for her parents that she basically told her adopted brother not to mention her parents to anyone as it would reveal she wasn't black.
IMO that's no way to be.
It's very sad really, all she had to do was be honest and say her parents were white but she felt more at home with black culture.
She could still have dressed the way she did.
Agree that it was wrong to lie and that she has "problems", in fact the whole family seems dysfunctional. However that does not affect whether she should be treated as "black" or "white". The fact that this is even an issue, that people have to declare their "race" for education or employment, that they would be regarded differently depending on genetic background just shows how deeply racist people still are - herself included.
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Some twenty five years ago I shared a house with an Irish Passport holder, whom I will call "Kelvin" who told everybody whom he met that he had been born in Nigeria & so he was black. We had a "real" black guy living upstairs, "David" who found all of this absurd, he also objected to Kelvin describing him as "his black brother" when David's family were from the West Indies & he did not care for Africans.
After a time, Kelvin announced that he had joined what he called "a black church" & had changed his name to Oladapo. We all thought that Kelvin/Oladapo had joined a Pentecostal church, but he had actually joined the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, as far removed from Pentecostals as is possible, not to mention being more than two thousand miles east of Nigeria.
I don't know what Kelvin/Oladapo is doing now, last I heard he was looking for a place in Brixton (which David hated & had always wanted to leave).
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Agree with Udayana. Every time I use a state service here I get asked what ethnicity I consider myself to be. Instead of having systems that encourage us to see our similarities we have systems that further label and divide. And all of them are just stories - the story of me being 'White English' is no more real than Humph's mate Kelvin being a black African - the only difference is that society agrees with the former.
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Interesting, I've had to ring for ambulances at least a dozen times and never been asked by the call handler, although I do on filling out forms either at home or in hospital.
As an aside, there is never a tick box for 'pagan'. I'm usually 'other'. ;D
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These things are usually justified because the organisation wants to 'know who uses its services'. In the case of the ambulance service that is generally 'sick people' and 'injured people'.
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That is a reasonable reason, but in all cases that information is (or is supposed to be) additional optional information, not information required to use the service.
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I suppose it makes sense to identify whether a particular group isn't using services such as libraries or playgroups. But I'd have thought using ambulances crosses all races and cultures.
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Ethnic group data collection is mandatory in hospitals in all areas now.
The mandate was set up by the NHS Information Standards Board - this was to comply with legislation, and address issues identified as significant risk factors for particular groups of patients.
I can't find anything about ambulance crews/call staff being required to record this. Certainly when I rang for an ambulance 3 weeks ago I was not asked.
So Rose your experience sounds atypical - if annoying!
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Ethnic group data collection is mandatory in hospitals in all areas now.
The mandate was set up by the NHS Information Standards Board - this was to comply with legislation, and address issues identified as significant risk factors for particular groups of patients.
I can't find anything about ambulance crews/call staff being required to record this. Certainly when I rang for an ambulance 3 weeks ago I was not asked.
So Rose your experience sounds atypical - if annoying!
Yes like where people that have close African decent, are prone to blood sickle cell disorder.
I've requested a prefer to not say tick box at our local hospital because if you go there it might be obvious to whoever is dealing with you if you happen to be, say black for instance.
ippy
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https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/06/17/jesus-wrongskin/
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Stupid link Shaker, but no surprise it coming from you. So you Euros painted Jesus looking more like Thor than Saddam Hussein. Couldn't care less but it does show where Canada and the USA got it's racism from.
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Stupid link Shaker, but no surprise it coming from you. So you Euros painted Jesus looking more like Thor than Saddam Hussein. Couldn't care less but it does show where Canada and the USA got it's racism from.
Poor Johnny. He just doesn't get irony.
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Poor little Harrow thinks Americans talk just like some author writes. Too funny that Harrow.
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Shaker identifies as Sooty.
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Shaker identifies as Sooty.
Presumably you are posting in drag whilst squinting at your watch.
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I identify as the black heavyweight champion of the world - Deontay Wilder (WBC, only)
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You wish :D
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Shaker identifies as Sooty.
Presumably you are posting in drag whilst squinting at your watch.
You said that as if it was a bad thing.
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Shaker identifies as Sooty.
Presumably you are posting in drag whilst squinting at your watch.
You said that as if it was a bad thing.
Not me. There are too many photos.
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Really ippy? Still inclined to be a very racist country, and it's cultural? Well of course there is racism, that will never go away. But unlike you, they voted for a black president, not once but twice.
Check out this photo
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/Ann_Dunham_with_father_and_children.jpg
The man on the extreme left is Obama's maternal grandfather. The woman is his mother and the girl is his half sister. Wikipedia says Obama was raised by his mother. How black is he really?
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You wish :D
I'm certainly heavyweight champion of our house: except for the dog, that, is. :)
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Oh Jeremy, you and that Euro superiority thingy. You want to know how black he really is. Well Herr Jeremy, perhaps take a look at his life, his careers, where he went to church, charities he has championed and so forth and then perhaps ask him or read one of his books or papers. How black is he really? Too funny you. You know in the native culture it wasn't who your father is that matters, it matters who your mother is. My people, the Metis, have fought the Brits and white Canadians for decades for recognition of who we are really. Finally that old Euro superiority thingy is just about dead around here.
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Oh Jeremy, you and that Euro superiority thingy. You want to know how black he really is. Well Herr Jeremy, perhaps take a look at his life, his careers, where he went to church, charities he has championed and so forth and then perhaps ask him or read one of his books or papers. How black is he really? Too funny you. You know in the native culture it wasn't who your father is that matters, it matters who your mother is. My people, the Metis, have fought the Brits and white Canadians for decades for recognition of who we are really. Finally that old Euro superiority thingy is just about dead around here.
What are you warbling on about?
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Ok Jeremy, little buddy, take this on board then. Genealogist can't all agree on the percent but anywhere from 30 to 70% of black Americans have white in their ancestry. So how black are they really? See how just plain stunted your dumb ass question was about how black Obama is? No? Well you would if you were smart.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33156905
Rachel Dolezal, the daughter of two Caucasian parents, and adoptive sister of 4 Black American siblings, is a high-profile race activist in the States. In an interview with NBC News, she says that she had started to identify as black when she was about 5.
This item - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33159940 - looks at her background and the context in which she sits.
Do people believe that - in the long run - a controversy like this will help the Black American cause, or hinder it? Does having an advocate from outside of one's own community have a greater impact on the rest of society than having member of the majority community like Rachel self-identify as part of the minority community?
Well, is this thread not fueling the fire?
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Ok Jeremy, little buddy, take this on board then. Genealogist can't all agree on the percent but anywhere from 30 to 70% of black Americans have white in their ancestry. So how black are they really? See how just plain stunted your dumb ass question was about how black Obama is? No? Well you would if you were smart.
No. It's not a stupid question. Barack Obama is judged back purely on his skin colour. Culturally and genetically he is significantly white.
It just shows how bullshit this black / white characterisation really is.
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I heard this on the PM programme on R4 this evening
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05y178z
The relevant bit is from 48:20
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I heard this on the PM programme on R4 this evening
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05y178z
The relevant bit is from 48:20
I have just listened to the clip. I found it moving and sad. The woman concerned has my very best wishes and hopes.
But she is not really in the same category as Rachel Dolezal. The woman in the clip is black but was reared in an all white environment. As she says she is culturally white. And as Jeremyp has stated Barack Obama is similarly culturally white (although his background and childhood were rather complicated - involving a significant period growing up in Indonesia).
Rachel Dolezal is similarly culturally white - there have been significan black influences in her life but that does not change her cultural identity. She appears to have seized her black identity.
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Rachel Dolezal is similarly culturally white - there have been significan black influences in her life but that does not change her cultural identity. She appears to have seized her black identity.
Bruce Jenner was similarly culturally and biologically a man but seems to have received much less criticism for his transition to being Caitlyn Jenner. Of course, she was more honest about it, but the analogy is there.
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Rachel Dolezal is similarly culturally white - there have been significan black influences in her life but that does not change her cultural identity. She appears to have seized her black identity.
Bruce Jenner was similarly culturally and biologically a man but seems to have received much less criticism for his transition to being Caitlyn Jenner. Of course, she was more honest about it, but the analogy is there.
Sexual identity appears to be a very complex interaction between genetic, congenital, developmental and environmental influences, both pre- and post-parturition. The pre-parturition enviromental influences may possibly include maternal hormonal balance. Post-parturition may involve sensitive periods when the infant is exposed to specific stimuli. (An unrelated example is language - if a child is not exposed to language before about 18 months of age it will never develop the capacity to use language.)
"Race" - in the sense of visible morphological variations between one isolated group of people and another appear to be of less complex, genetic origin.
I understand the use of the analogy but suspect it may not be as useful as it may appear at first glance.
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Obviously "race" is used in a much wider sense than "visible morphological variations between one isolated group of people and another" - it includes cultural outlook, identity, history, class/caste, intelligence etc etc. Look at the South Carolina murder case - what on earth is that about? - not some people having darker skin than others.
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I agree Jeremy that it is BS. And your question asking how black is he, is an example of such stupidity. I don't think you have the smarts to tell us that he is significantly white culturally. I don't believe this white culture you put on him is a white culture any of you whites would recognize.
Obama identifies himself as being African American. But his African American culture/identity is not one recognized or experienced by most African Americans. But who am I to say you can't identify that way Mr. President, cause your mother is white and your father was black and did not come from the black experience of slavery? Should I tell the president to identify something else cause his heritage comes out of Kansas and Kenya?
Stupid to ask how black is he really Jeremy. And really, really, stupid to try and tell us about his cultural identity. Stop digging that hole!
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Obviously "race" is used in a much wider sense than "visible morphological variations between one isolated group of people and another" - it includes cultural outlook, identity, history, class/caste, intelligence etc etc. Look at the South Carolina murder case - what on earth is that about? - not some people having darker skin than others.
Have I denied that? I said ""Race" - in the sense of ... " I am just trying to use the term in its simplest manifestation.
I am trying to look at the psychobiological variables during pre-parturition, neonatal and childhood development which might be responsible for forming someone's perception of what sex he or she should be. To the best of my knowledge the factors which determine the physiological determinants of "race" are settled at conception.
I am well aware that there many more factors than physiology which determine race and racial identity. I just don't think that these come from the same endocrinological and psychodevelopmental sources as those responsible for sexual identity.