Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Owlswing on June 23, 2015, 05:12:56 PM
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Just how low can some of the youth of this country descend.
Kids from an expensive private school and not the local comprehesive either!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/23/uk-teenagers-held-thefts-artefacts-auschwitz-museum
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They'd picked up things from the floor thinking they'd make souvenirs apparently. Speaks volumes as to their sense of entitlement and lack of sensitivity but it's hardly evil. Just a bit thick.
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Just how low can some of the youth of this country descend.
Kids from an expensive private school and not the local comprehesive either!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/23/uk-teenagers-held-thefts-artefacts-auschwitz-museum
Why the shock that this was the rich kids? Not that I subscribe to thinking they are necessarily worse but you seem hugely dismissive of comp kids here.
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I agree with Rhi.
Evil was what created a place such as Auschwitz in the first place. This pair of prats were simply thoughtless, mindless and, as the lady said, thick.
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I agree with Rhi.
Evil was what created a place such as Auschwitz in the first place. This pair of prats were simply thoughtless, mindless and, as the lady said, thick.
I agree. If evil is something which is profoundly wicked or immoral, then the camps were just the embodiment of evil. This behaviour is just cretinous and, as said, thick, but hardly comparable.
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Just how low can some of the youth of this country descend.
Kids from an expensive private school and not the local comprehesive either!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/23/uk-teenagers-held-thefts-artefacts-auschwitz-museum
Why the shock that this was the rich kids? Not that I subscribe to thinking they are necessarily worse but you seem hugely dismissive of comp kids here.
Sorry - Take a look at the world and where the denizens of such schools tend to end up.
In positions of superiority by right of birth - considered to have been brought up to those positions almost from birth, to have been given high standards of behaviour etc with their mother's milk.
Oh, I expect to find them drunk and pissing on the populace from a high balcony and using the law of the land to thieve from others, not this kind of thievery.
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Rhi, Shaker, BA
Why the horror?
Regardless of any other considerations the entire Auschwitz complex is a War Memorial, a memorial to all those of various races, religions, etc who died there.
What they picked up, regardless of what it was or where they found it, it was part of that memorial and by taking things their actions were, in my mind, desecration of that memorial - the same as spraying graffiti on the Cenotaph.
As many who died at Auschwitz were Polish, these boys will find out how the Poles feel about what they have done when they find out that they face a maximium sentence, if found guilty, of 15 years!
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Rhi, Shaker, BA
Why the horror?
Regardless of any other considerations the entire Auschwitz complex is a War Memorial, a memorial to all those of various races, religions, etc who died there.
What they picked up, regardless of what it was or where they found it, it was part of that memorial and by taking things their actions were, in my mind, desecration of that memorial - the same as spraying graffiti on the Cenotaph.
As many who died at Auschwitz were Polish, these boys will find out how the Poles feel about what they have done when they find out that they face a maximium sentence, if found guilty, of 15 years!
Regarding your example of desecration of a war memorial, i.e. spraying graffiti on the Cenotaph:
AFAIC Rhi, Bashers and I are singing from the same hymn sheet, which is to say, trying to keep this in some sort of perspective. What they did was stupid and thoughtless but the action of a pair of idiotic teenagers, not on a par with Himmler. Graffiti on the Cenotaph can be scrubbed off in a few minutes. Let's keep things in proportion here.
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Sorry - Take a look at the world and where the denizens of such schools tend to end up.
As a product of a minor public school myself, I find this obnoxious, Nathaniel. Yes, there are many people in banking, politics, business, etc. who come from this type of school - but then there are also many people in politics and business who don't. I also know of a lot of alumni of such schools who are working abroad for charities - both International and National; as well as in education, health, welfare, prison reform, ... in other words the whole gammut of working experience. As such, the vast majority are no different to the vast majority of state school alumni.
In positions of superiority by right of birth - considered to have been brought up to those positions almost from birth, to have been given high standards of behaviour etc with their mother's milk.
You have clearly had limited experience of such pupils. Yes, there are those who seem to feel that society owes them a living (but the same can be said of a comparable proportion of state schools pupils), but many come from backgrounds whereby parents have chosen to put their children through a good education at the expense of expensive holidays, personal treats, and other home comforts which many people take for granted.
Oh, I expect to find them drunk and pissing on the populace from a high balcony and using the law of the land to thieve from others, not this kind of thievery.
In other words, you expect them to behave like most kids tend to behave at some stage of their lives.
To return to the OP, it's worth pointing out that 'Museum curators say some visitors try to pilfer artefacts as souvenirs.' This nothing new, and suggests that these two were no different from other people, adults included.
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As many who died at Auschwitz were Polish, these boys will find out how the Poles feel about what they have done when they find out that they face a maximium sentence, if found guilty, of 15 years!
Oddly enough, Nath, the article you link to starts off by stating that "Two British schoolboys arrested at Auschwitz have each received a year’s probation, suspended for three years, and a 1,000 zloty (£170) fine after admitting stealing artefacts from the former Nazi death camp.". Slightly different from your worst-case scenario.
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I live not far from the Perse. It's a good school and the kids who come from it are generally good kids, not the kids of outrageous privilege but from families who work in well-paid positions in the university, medicine and biotech industry. It's no Eton.
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A new level of evil?
One level of evil is trying to eliminate an ethnic group by rounding them up, putting them in cattle trucks and sending them off to labour camps and gas chambers.
Where does this new level rank in comparison to that?
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Plus of course you could expect comprehensive kids to maybe reach this new depth of evil, but the shock is that appears to be rich kids who while ready to piss randomly on people just lack the ability to be beyond the holocaust in evil that a comp kid has.
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I don't know what the school the kids attend have to do with anything? ::) Their actions were stupid in the extreme, and I hope they are made to realise how shocking and offensive they were!
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I think a night in Polish youth detention plus the possibility of getting a lengthy jail sentence will have scared the whatsits out of them.
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Just how low can some of the youth of this country descend.
Kids from an expensive private school and not the local comprehesive either!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/23/uk-teenagers-held-thefts-artefacts-auschwitz-museum
Why the shock that this was the rich kids? Not that I subscribe to thinking they are necessarily worse but you seem hugely dismissive of comp kids here.
I must admit I thought that too.
Likewise.
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What Matt seems to be saying is that comp kids aren't above nicking a few things whereas private school kids piss on everyone else.
Which isn't exactly fair to either.
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I live not far from the Perse. It's a good school and the kids who come from it are generally good kids, not the kids of outrageous privilege but from families who work in well-paid positions in the university, medicine and biotech industry. It's no Eton.
I don't think they thought about it, a few buttons and a spoon probably seemed harmless souvenirs at the time.
Young people don't always respect history in the way perhaps an older generation does. History is something you read about in books to a fair number of people, the past is gone, so doesn't matter, to youngsters history isn't "real" in many ways, so they don't get the bit about damaging it.
I visited Pompei and both me and my husband were horrified at some of the other tourists who allowed their kids to climb all over it and actually remove stones from the walls, we would have gone ballistic if our kids had done such a thing, but not everyone feels the same about places.
To some people the death camps are just a part of history which has gone, so the respect isn't there. So you get people trying to nick the sign because they think it would be a trendy sort of thing to have.
Its like people who break off a stalagtite when visiting caves.
However the young don't always think about what they do, and older people ought to know better.
It's not so much evil, as incredibly thoughtless.
Apparently one of the boys had done work experience in a museum. It seems he has an interest in old artefacts and I wouldn't mind betting that like many collectors and metal detectorists he doesn't appreciate the importance of context.
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What Matt seems to be saying is that comp kids aren't above nicking a few things whereas private school kids piss on everyone else.
Which isn't exactly fair to either.
I may well have not put the point as well as I might - we are always given to understand that these kind of schools only take in and put out the very best pupils, taught the highest standards of education and behaviiour.
And - to Hope - yes they got off with probabtion but the maximum sentence for what they did is, not 15, but 10 years imprisonment.
OK - I will, as above, agree that I put my point badly, about as badly as I possibly could, but the stolen artifacts are part of the memorial that is the Auschwitz museum and the people who took those items to Auschwitz died there; would all those who have made comments here condone the theft of items from a relatives coffin?
Remote as the possibility might be there is a chance, a slim one maybe, but a chance nevertheless, that any one of the items they picked up could have belonged to one of my family (Dutch Jews) who died there.
But Hell! They are British schoolchildren so heaven forbid they should have done anything wrong - stupid yes - wrong no!
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No one has condoned it, so I suggest you apologise for stating that they have.
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Stupid? Yes.
Wrong? Yes.
A new level of evil? No.
To suggest that it is would appear to diminish the greater evil that was done on that site.
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No one has condoned it, so I suggest you apologise for stating that they have.
Apologise?
You must be joking - look back over the posts and find one that condemns the boys actions as anthing but "stupid".
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Stupid? Yes.
Wrong? Yes.
A new level of evil? No.
To suggest that it is would appear to diminish the greater evil that was done on that site.
Nothing can diminish the evil done but actions like those of these boys only adds grave-robbing to it!
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So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?
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:-X
No one has condoned it, so I suggest you apologise for stating that they have.
Apologise?
You must be joking - look back over the posts and find one that condemns the boys actions as anthing but "stupid".
And that isn't condoning it. Stop lying about people
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:-X No one has condoned it, so I suggest you apologise for stating that they have.
Apologise?
You must be joking - look back over the posts and find one that condemns the boys actions as anthing but "stupid".
And that isn't condoning it. Stop lying about people
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you or your point of view is liar?
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So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?
One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!
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So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?
One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!
So that you have them lied about people on this thread means by your 'logic', you now own the new level of evil. Well done!
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So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?
One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!
So by their actions these boys are now responsible for the holocaust too?
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Matt, I'm sorry about your family. Because of how the Canada part of the site was used for the mass burning of bodies I do understand why you feel it is like a grave robbing. But there's nothing to suggest these boys were aware of that and meant any disrespect and I expect the same is true of the other tourists that try to take things home.
What happened at Auschwitz was truly evil but ignorance and stupidity are not evil on anything like the same scale. It isn't wise to diminish what evil really is, however hurt we are, because it still stalks humanity and we need to be clear when we see it.
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:-X No one has condoned it, so I suggest you apologise for stating that they have.
Apologise?
You must be joking - look back over the posts and find one that condemns the boys actions as anthing but "stupid".
And that isn't condoning it. Stop lying about people
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you or your point of view is liar?
Oh dear, they aren't. Indeed I post frequently about the fact that people use the word too readily on here. But when people are lying, as you are here, or as Vlad did yesterday, I think you need to be picked up on it. No one on this thread has condoned the action. That you are not admitting that is a simple lie by you just makes the entirety of your position on this thread a befoulment.
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What Matt seems to be saying is that comp kids aren't above nicking a few things whereas private school kids piss on everyone else.
Which isn't exactly fair to either.
I may well have not put the point as well as I might - we are always given to understand that these kind of schools only take in and put out the very best pupils, taught the highest standards of education and behaviiour.
And - to Hope - yes they got off with probabtion but the maximum sentence for what they did is, not 15, but 10 years imprisonment.
OK - I will, as above, agree that I put my point badly, about as badly as I possibly could, but the stolen artifacts are part of the memorial that is the Auschwitz museum and the people who took those items to Auschwitz died there; would all those who have made comments here condone the theft of items from a relatives coffin?
Remote as the possibility might be there is a chance, a slim one maybe, but a chance nevertheless, that any one of the items they picked up could have belonged to one of my family (Dutch Jews) who died there.
But Hell! They are British schoolchildren so heaven forbid they should have done anything wrong - stupid yes - wrong no!
It was stupid and wrong but not 10years worth of wrong, they deserved a good telling off, yes;imprisonment, no.
Even if they had picked up something from one of your dead relatives, it wouldn't have changed anything that happened to them.
It isn't the same as grave robbing at all, these are "things" kept in a museum for people to look at.
It's not even as if those things were important to the people who wore them, they are just bits and pieces.
They are just little bits of left over debris from a tragic human event.
A button, a shoe, a child's teddy.
They are just reminders of the past, objects.
A button is only a button.
A sad reminder of the person who was wearing it.
Lets keep it in proportion here.
Not quite, Rose - the Canada area in Auschwitz us regarded as a grave, it isn't like taking things from a display.
This is from the Telegraph report:
It appears the two removed items from an area of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp called “Canada,” which, during the Second World War, was the site of a warehouse containing possession looted from the millions of victims claimed by the death camp.
As the Red Army closed in on the camp in 1945 the Germans torched the warehouse, and many of its possessions still lie buried in the soil.
At it contains the last physical evidence of a vast number of people who were reduced to nothing but ashes, Polish authorities have classified Canada as a cemetery and have left the site untouched although visitors are free to walk around it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/11693368/Two-Britons-arrested-at-Auschwitz-on-suspicion-of-stealing-items.html
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So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?
One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!
So by their actions these boys are now responsible for the holocaust too?
Idiot! I said in "addition to" not "as well of"
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What Matt seems to be saying is that comp kids aren't above nicking a few things whereas private school kids piss on everyone else.
Which isn't exactly fair to either.
I may well have not put the point as well as I might - we are always given to understand that these kind of schools only take in and put out the very best pupils, taught the highest standards of education and behaviiour.
And - to Hope - yes they got off with probabtion but the maximum sentence for what they did is, not 15, but 10 years imprisonment.
OK - I will, as above, agree that I put my point badly, about as badly as I possibly could, but the stolen artifacts are part of the memorial that is the Auschwitz museum and the people who took those items to Auschwitz died there; would all those who have made comments here condone the theft of items from a relatives coffin?
Remote as the possibility might be there is a chance, a slim one maybe, but a chance nevertheless, that any one of the items they picked up could have belonged to one of my family (Dutch Jews) who died there.
But Hell! They are British schoolchildren so heaven forbid they should have done anything wrong - stupid yes - wrong no!
It was stupid and wrong but not 10years worth of wrong, they deserved a good telling off, yes;imprisonment, no.
Even if they had picked up something from one of your dead relatives, it wouldn't have changed anything that happened to them.
It isn't the same as grave robbing at all, these are "things" kept in a museum for people to look at.
It's not even as if those things were important to the people who wore them, they are just bits and pieces.
They are just little bits of left over debris from a tragic human event.
A button, a shoe, a child's teddy.
They are just reminders of the past, objects.
A button is only a button.
A sad reminder of the person who was wearing it.
Lets keep it in proportion here.
Not quite, Rose - the Canada area in Auschwitz us regarded as a grave, it isn't like taking things from a display.
This is from the Telegraph report:
It appears the two removed items from an area of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp called “Canada,” which, during the Second World War, was the site of a warehouse containing possession looted from the millions of victims claimed by the death camp.
As the Red Army closed in on the camp in 1945 the Germans torched the warehouse, and many of its possessions still lie buried in the soil.
At it contains the last physical evidence of a vast number of people who were reduced to nothing but ashes, Polish authorities have classified Canada as a cemetery and have left the site untouched although visitors are free to walk around it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/11693368/Two-Britons-arrested-at-Auschwitz-on-suspicion-of-stealing-items.html
Now let's see if you get the same dismissive responses as I have!
I doubt it.
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So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?
One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!
So by their actions these boys are now responsible for the holocaust too?
Idiot! I said in "addition to" not "as well of"
So how do their actions compound that of the Nazis if they are only responsible for their actions?
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What 'dismissive responses' have you received,NJS? And remember some if the responses you were complaining about gave been made by Rhiannon, so in your attack on them you are being dismissive of her response.
All people have sought to do is to argue that talking about this as a new level of evil plays down the holocaust, but what do you end up doing? Arguing that because Rhiannon won't be picked up (for not actually doing the same as you), that it is somehow all about you.
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So why call this "a new level of evil?" as if this was potentially evil of a magnitude never witnessed before?
One HUGE evil plus a smaller (of whatever magnitude) evil = a greater (new) level of evil!
So by their actions these boys are now responsible for the holocaust too?
Idiot! I said in "addition to" not "as well of"
So how do their actions compound that of the Nazis if they are only responsible for their actions?
If you do not unbsderstand the principle of addition - go back to school and learn!
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What 'dismissive responses' have you received,NJS? And remember some if the responses you were complaining about gave been made by Rhiannon, so in your attack on them you are being dismissal of her response.
All people have sought to do is to argue that talking about this as a new level of evil plays down the holocaust, but what do you end up doing? Arguing that because Rhiannon won't be picked up (for not actually doing the same as you), that it is somehow all about you.
If you do not consider that stating that these boys "did nothing wrong" as dismissive . . .
And yes I do include Rhi's earlier, similar, comments in that, but I find her later comment regarding canade to be rather better infirmed than yours.
My comment about Rhi not "being picked" up is because I have never seen any comment from her treated in the same way as mine - you have never called her a liar!
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Since no one has said they did nothing wrong then that is irrelevant. As to Rhiannon I have never said that she is lying because I don't think she has - is that so hard to understand? Your logic implies if I say Himmler was a disgusting evil person, I am some how not picking up Grayson Perry in the same way.
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Since no one has said they did nothing wrong then that is irrelevant. As to Rhiannon I have never said that she is lying because I don't think she has - is that so hard to understand? Your logic implies if I say Himmler was a disgusting evil person, I am some how not picking up Grayson Perry in the same way.
You carry on playing your pathetic games af semantics all you like - they do not interest me - they are something that you do when you have nothing of value to say!
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Matt, my earlier comments were as informed as my later. But these boys aren't responsible for evils such as the Holocaust.
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Since no one has said they did nothing wrong then that is irrelevant. As to Rhiannon I have never said that she is lying because I don't think she has - is that so hard to understand? Your logic implies if I say Himmler was a disgusting evil person, I am some how not picking up Grayson Perry in the same way.
You carry on playing your pathetic games af semantics all you like - they do not interest me - they are something that you do when you have nothing of value to say!
Hmmm lying = semantics
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Matt, my earlier comments were as informed as my later. But these boys aren't responsible for evils such as the Holocaust.
Nowhere did I say they were!
They stole from the dead of Auschwitz!
The Nazis stole from the dead of Auschwitz (this is, as you pointed out, what Canada was for!)
The boys are not responsible for the evils committed by the Nazis; what they did was, in essence, to repeat what the Nazis did in Canada - they stole, or attempted to steal, the property of Jews who were gassed as opposed to stealing the property of Jews who were about to be gassed.
If you watch the BBC documentary on Auschwitz it contains detailed survivor records of the ways in which individual guards stole for their personal benefit items and money brought in by the Jews. Just as these boys stole for their personal benefit or whatever!
The only differences as far as I am concerned are the timing of the thefts and the value of the items stolen and the lack of a political or anti-semetic motivation.
As you yourself pointed out Canada is classified as a war grave - so would you see someone who opened and robbed the grave of a WW1 or WW2 soldier as just stupid schoolboys on a 'prank'?
I'm not sure but I think that grave-robbing may still be a criminal offence in this country.
YES, YES, YES! this is a very personal matter to me - I would be just as angry if these little b******s had robbed my grandfather's grave in Essex - who was not a Jew, or my mother's grave in Kent, who was never a practising Jew!
OK - rant over - I will be posting no further comment on this thread - I cannot even begin to put into words my disgust at some of the sentiments expressed in it and so will not even attempt to do so.
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Matt, it can only be grave robbing if they knew it was a grave. We don't know that they did.
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"A new level of evil" Get off it Matty. Like all the previous thefts never happened right? Remember the theft of the sign a few years back. No? Well get informed because this latest theft is hardly a new thing at all.
One thing these thefts do every time they happen, and it has happened before, dear angry Matty, is get people talking about the history of Auschwitz. That's a good thing. Now Matty, I just betcha you can't blame private schools for all the other thefts from Auschwitz. Have a cookie!
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we are always given to understand that these kind of schools only take in and put out the very best pupils, taught the highest standards of education and behaviiour.
Maybe you are but rich people's children cover the spectrum of ability just like everybody else's and even the intelligent ones can behave like idiots sometimes.
However, this act was characterised as "a new level of evil". Yes it was crass and stupid and not to be condoned, but "a new level of evil"? No.
But Hell! They are British schoolchildren so heaven forbid they should have done anything wrong - stupid yes - wrong no!
What they did was wrong and it certainly reflects poorly on all of us, but a new level of evil? Nope.
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Nothing can diminish the evil done but actions like those of these boys only adds grave-robbing to it!
They didn't rob a grave. I thought they stole the artefacts from a museum.
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Nothing can diminish the evil done but actions like those of these boys only adds grave-robbing to it!
They didn't rob a grave. I thought they stole the artefacts from a museum.
Quote from Rhi #34
Polish authorities have classified Canada as a cemetery and have left the site untouched although visitors are free to walk around it.
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These 17 year old boys have been fined, sentenced and have apologized. Not good enough for the likes of Matty, he wants their heads on pikes so he can parade them up and down his street.
This is nothing but drama. Why do i say that? Because it is a fact that these cases of people picking up artifacts off the ground to take away happens AT LEAST once or twice a year. Yup, and that info comes from the staff at Auschwitz. So suddenly now Matty is having a fit and calling it an new level of evil. What a pile of BS drama.
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Nothing can diminish the evil done but actions like those of these boys only adds grave-robbing to it!
They didn't rob a grave. I thought they stole the artefacts from a museum.
Quote from Rhi #34
Polish authorities have classified Canada as a cemetery and have left the site untouched although visitors are free to walk around it.
Not a grave then.
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I don't think the boys were into this but it appears holocaust stuff is collectable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2485251/Ebays-sick-trade-Holocaust-souvenirs-Outrage-auctions-Death-Camp-relics.html
That's an old article. I just did a quick eBay search and can't find anything that looks like it was stolen from the camps.
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So how do their actions compound that of the Nazis if they are only responsible for their actions?
If you do not unbsderstand the principle of addition - go back to school and learn!
I understand the principle of addition.
What I haven't seen is any justification for claiming that their actions compound those of the Nazis.
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Can Matty at least admit that this is NOT a new level of anything. At least once or twice a year people are caught trying to take artifacts away. Have you absorbed that fact yet dear Matty?
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Good grief Rhi, not so long ago. Ebay only apologized like in 2013. Is that so long ago to you that mentioning Auschwitz artifacts were being sold on Ebay, needed your scrutiny?
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I may well have not put the point as well as I might - we are always given to understand that these kind of schools only take in and put out the very best pupils, taught the highest standards of education and behaviiour.
Just a quick point, Nat. The pupils at places like Perse are really no different to the majority of kids at state schools. Yes, both groups have their extremes, whilst the main difference is that private school kidsa have parents who eaither have the money to pay for their kids' education or who choose to send them to private schools for specific reasons - such as the consistently high standard of sports coaching most enjoy.
And - to Hope - yes they got off with probabtion but the maximum sentence for what they did is, not 15, but 10 years imprisonment.
I was arguing with the possible consequences; just pointing that suggesting that they might get a worst-case punishment when the article had already outlined their punishment smacked of misrepresentation, or at least lack of articvle reading.
But Hell! They are British schoolchildren so heaven forbid they should have done anything wrong - stupid yes - wrong no!
No-one has suggested that what thy did was not wrong. But to suggest that something that apparently happens quite regularly is 'a new level of evil' is overstating the point, and actually undermining your otherwise valid point.
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Good grief Rhi, not so long ago. Ebay only apologized like in 2013. Is that so long ago to you that mentioning Auschwitz artifacts were being sold on Ebay, needed your scrutiny?
I followed Rose's story and then looked to see if such items were still slipping through - AFAIK eBay still rely on items bring reported before they get taken down as unsuitable. I wanted to check because if the trade is still carrying on then selling stuff on eBay is a plausible reason for the young men to steal, but as it isn't that is a much less likely motive and we are probably back to souvenir hunting.
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During the war one of the German soldiers who occupied my childhood home was also a cartoonist. He produced a number of pictures of the wartime island bigwigs, which he left behind when the island was liberated. Throughout my childhood these pictures were hung on the walls of one of our landings. When the house was sold in 1984 my parents put them in a storage box and forgot about them. After their deaths my siblings and I had to decide what to do with the artwork. They were probably worth a bob or two, but we felt that they should not be sold, but donated to the museum of which my late father had been patron. They were gratefully received as a reminder of that unpleasant period in the island's past.
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And has anyone tried taking them from the museum?
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I think a night in Polish youth detention plus the possibility of getting a lengthy jail sentence will have scared the whatsits out of them.
Bloody Hell! they nicked the wotsits as well?
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It's independent schooling for you. They end up with this huge sense of entitlement to cheesey snacks.
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Since no one has said they did nothing wrong then that is irrelevant. As to Rhiannon I have never said that she is lying because I don't think she has - is that so hard to understand? Your logic implies if I say Himmler was a disgusting evil person, I am some how not picking up Grayson Perry in the same way.
You carry on playing your pathetic games af semantics all you like - they do not interest me - they are something that you do when you have nothing of value to say!
It isn't semantics, old chap.
(a) you said people had said the boys had done nothing wrong. no-one had said that, so you are simply wrong.
(b) you have suggested that this theft is "a new level of evil". In a discussion which involves the holocaust, that is a big claim. no-one agrees with you and you seem unable to support it.
This isn't semantics, it is you making mistakes.
You lack what is required to admit to making mistakes, so you have gone on the offensive.
Nearly Sane has presented you with reasoned arguments to counter your position. As you are unable to address these you have deployed the word 'semantics' in the (mistaken) belief that this will make it look as though you were not really wrong.
p.s. I disagree with much of what NS posts, and I don't recall him ever calling me a liar. So, no, not everyone who disagrees with NS is a liar - just the lying ones.