Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Muslim Topic => Topic started by: trippymonkey on June 25, 2015, 05:33:26 PM
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ok
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There are many reasons why Non-stun slaughter should be banned with the United Kingdom ranging from religious beliefs to animal welfare.
Not quite sure what religious belief-related reasons there are for banning the practice. Furthermore, 'with the United Kingdom', what does that mean?
Regardless of the reasons, it is clear that the majority of the UK population wish it to be banned.
Is it clear that the majority of the population wish it to be banned?
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It's simple: the answer is,"Yes!"
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If the petition genuinely was about reducing avoidable animal suffering it would also want a referendum on banning factory farming and inhumane transportation in the UK. in which case I would definitely sign it.
Since it doesn't call for a referendum on these practices, the people who drafted it seem to be indicating they are only outraged about foreign cultural causes of unnecessary animal suffering, as opposed to being concerned about the issue of unnecessary animal suffering in general.
If the majority of people in the UK vote to halt only foreign cultural practices, that's fine with me. It will be similar to if the Saudis banned foreigners consuming alcohol in their country, because they find its consumption a distasteful foreign cultural practice. Though the Saudi princes are well- known for their love of alcohol and gambling, but they tend to only partake openly in both of these when they are abroad.
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At least here in the UK???
Just received this on my email. What do we all think of this way of slaughter.
Do any 'meat-eaters' actually form where & how they get their meat?
https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-david-cameron-mp-ed-miliband-nigel-farage-nicola-sturgeon-natalie-bennett-nick-clegg-mp-leanne-wood-peter-robinson-we-the-people-of-the-uk-demand-that-the-government-who-ever-is-in-power-holds-an-immediate-yes-no-referendum-for-the-people?recruiter=24807721&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-md-share_petition-reason_msg
AND YES Before we get the usual pathetic, rabid screams of Islamophobia, whatever THAT is, this applies equally to Kosher, the same way in the Jewish faith.
Killing animals just for food is bad enough as it is but to let an animal endure this pain rather than just kill it outright is deplorable.
I DO know about the body releasing a kind of chemical into its bloodstream at death but.... is it worth it. Does anyone here care???
Are we once again bending over backwards to accomodate a faith so anti-western values. We've seen what can happen, with that family who've gone over to join our 'enemies' !!!
And do we know just how much of this is 'mixed in' with 'ordinary slaughtered' meats?!!?!??
Yes I AM a veggie too but that naff all to do with this...
Nick
No I don't think it should be banned.
It isn't anti western.
Mass meat production could be improved overall and the welfare of the animals slaughtered.
This might interest you.
http://www.organic-halal-meat.com/article/stunning.php
So a lot of Halal meat is stunned anyway.
I do think Muslims need to look at abuses and practices that are going on that might be leading to their meat being harem anyway.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/58447/halal-butcher-scandal-what-is-halal-meat-and-is-it-inhumane
But then perhaps the whole thing needs looking at, some people think stunning itself is cruel.
In the proper conditions Hallal and kosher are ok, IMO , but it's the mass meat production and resulting enviroment it's done in, that makes it inhumane, just like all the other animals slaughtered.
I don't think stunning helps the Enviroment the animals find themselves in.
An animal killed with a sharp knife while relaxed and unaware is probably more humane that dragging a terrified animal around a building when it can smell blood and death at every turn.
It can see the panic in its fellow creatures which adds to it.
Stunning doesn't help with that at all.
But it's what happens if you want cheap meat, which most people do.
I cannot believe the naiveté of that comment!! Of course they are aware: they are in an assembly line of death: they see and hear and smell what is happening. Have you not looked at rhe video evidence available, one of which I posted?
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BA
EXACTLY as I said before !!!
Just go to U-tube & see any vids on slaughter houses. It'll freak you out. :o
Unless you're a hard faced T+++ >:(
I've seen some, and they are just gut-wrenching.. How anybody could eat halal after seeing them leaves me bewildered. :o
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G
Quite right too, agreed.
This is one of many instances of animal suffering. We don't really need to eat meat anyway !?!?!? ;)
Rose
Halal meat isn't supposed to be stunned first. 'They' say the knives used have to be so sharp the animal doesn't really feel it as it bleeds to death. BUT, as we saw on the video footage, the animal is still conscious after this. :P
According to the RSPCA 90% of halal meat comes from animals that have been stunned, so your views on halal are contradicted by reality.
http://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/slaughter
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At least here in the UK???
Just received this on my email. What do we all think of this way of slaughter.
Do any 'meat-eaters' actually form where & how they get their meat?
https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-david-cameron-mp-ed-miliband-nigel-farage-nicola-sturgeon-natalie-bennett-nick-clegg-mp-leanne-wood-peter-robinson-we-the-people-of-the-uk-demand-that-the-government-who-ever-is-in-power-holds-an-immediate-yes-no-referendum-for-the-people?recruiter=24807721&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-md-share_petition-reason_msg
AND YES Before we get the usual pathetic, rabid screams of Islamophobia, whatever THAT is, this applies equally to Kosher, the same way in the Jewish faith.
Killing animals just for food is bad enough as it is but to let an animal endure this pain rather than just kill it outright is deplorable.
I DO know about the body releasing a kind of chemical into its bloodstream at death but.... is it worth it. Does anyone here care???
Are we once again bending over backwards to accomodate a faith so anti-western values. We've seen what can happen, with that family who've gone over to join our 'enemies' !!!
And do we know just how much of this is 'mixed in' with 'ordinary slaughtered' meats?!!?!??
Yes I AM a veggie too but that naff all to do with this...
Nick
No I don't think it should be banned.
It isn't anti western.
Mass meat production could be improved overall and the welfare of the animals slaughtered.
This might interest you.
http://www.organic-halal-meat.com/article/stunning.php
So a lot of Halal meat is stunned anyway.
I do think Muslims need to look at abuses and practices that are going on that might be leading to their meat being harem anyway.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/58447/halal-butcher-scandal-what-is-halal-meat-and-is-it-inhumane
But then perhaps the whole thing needs looking at, some people think stunning itself is cruel.
In the proper conditions Hallal and kosher are ok, IMO , but it's the mass meat production and resulting enviroment it's done in, that makes it inhumane, just like all the other animals slaughtered.
I don't think stunning helps the Enviroment the animals find themselves in.
An animal killed with a sharp knife while relaxed and unaware is probably more humane that dragging a terrified animal around a building when it can smell blood and death at every turn.
It can see the panic in its fellow creatures which adds to it.
Stunning doesn't help with that at all.
But it's what happens if you want cheap meat, which most people do.
I cannot believe the naiveté of that comment!! Of course they are aware: they are in an assembly line of death: they see and hear and smell what is happening. Have you not looked at rhe video evidence available, one of which I posted?
The same issue of animals being aware of death in the slaughter house applies to non-halal meat in this country so the petition should address that, if it is genuinely about animal welfare.
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Sure - when the Mods move this thread to the General Board and open it up into a discussion of banning all factory farming and inhumane transportation of animals, I will.
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At least here in the UK???
Just received this on my email. What do we all think of this way of slaughter.
Do any 'meat-eaters' actually form where & how they get their meat?
https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-david-cameron-mp-ed-miliband-nigel-farage-nicola-sturgeon-natalie-bennett-nick-clegg-mp-leanne-wood-peter-robinson-we-the-people-of-the-uk-demand-that-the-government-who-ever-is-in-power-holds-an-immediate-yes-no-referendum-for-the-people?recruiter=24807721&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-md-share_petition-reason_msg
AND YES Before we get the usual pathetic, rabid screams of Islamophobia, whatever THAT is, this applies equally to Kosher, the same way in the Jewish faith.
Killing animals just for food is bad enough as it is but to let an animal endure this pain rather than just kill it outright is deplorable.
I DO know about the body releasing a kind of chemical into its bloodstream at death but.... is it worth it. Does anyone here care???
Are we once again bending over backwards to accomodate a faith so anti-western values. We've seen what can happen, with that family who've gone over to join our 'enemies' !!!
And do we know just how much of this is 'mixed in' with 'ordinary slaughtered' meats?!!?!??
Yes I AM a veggie too but that naff all to do with this...
Nick
No I don't think it should be banned.
It isn't anti western.
Mass meat production could be improved overall and the welfare of the animals slaughtered.
This might interest you.
http://www.organic-halal-meat.com/article/stunning.php
So a lot of Halal meat is stunned anyway.
I do think Muslims need to look at abuses and practices that are going on that might be leading to their meat being harem anyway.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/58447/halal-butcher-scandal-what-is-halal-meat-and-is-it-inhumane
But then perhaps the whole thing needs looking at, some people think stunning itself is cruel.
In the proper conditions Hallal and kosher are ok, IMO , but it's the mass meat production and resulting enviroment it's done in, that makes it inhumane, just like all the other animals slaughtered.
I don't think stunning helps the Enviroment the animals find themselves in.
An animal killed with a sharp knife while relaxed and unaware is probably more humane that dragging a terrified animal around a building when it can smell blood and death at every turn.
It can see the panic in its fellow creatures which adds to it.
Stunning doesn't help with that at all.
But it's what happens if you want cheap meat, which most people do.
I cannot believe the naiveté of that comment!! Of course they are aware: they are in an assembly line of death: they see and hear and smell what is happening. Have you not looked at rhe video evidence available, one of which I posted?
The same issue of animals being aware of death in the slaughter house applies to non-halal meat in this country so the petition should address that, if it is genuinely about animal welfare.
I entirely agree; but my comment was made in answer to Rose's views on ritual slaughter for halal meat.
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Sure - when the Mods move this thread to the General Board and open it up into a discussion of banning all factory farming and inhumane transportation of animals, I will.
Oh STOP playing the victim all the time !! As soon as you back yourself into a corner you blame every bugger else. Typical Muslim so maybe you picked right after all !!! ;)
That's very progressive of you to be ok with Hindus choosing Islam over Hinduism. Some of your fellow Hindus are a lot less tolerant.
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Sure - when the Mods move this thread to the General Board and open it up into a discussion of banning all factory farming and inhumane transportation of animals, I will.
Oh STOP playing the victim all the time !! As soon as you back yourself into a corner you blame every bugger else. Typical Muslim so maybe you picked right after all !!! ;)
That's very progressive of you to be ok with Hindus choosing Islam over Hinduism. Some of your fellow Hindus are a lot less tolerant.
An islamofascist talking about tolerance - oxymoron surely!!
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I think at the very least it should be marked so that people can choose whether to eat it. Especially when it's hidden in prepared food.
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Sure - when the Mods move this thread to the General Board and open it up into a discussion of banning all factory farming and inhumane transportation of animals, I will.
Oh STOP playing the victim all the time !! As soon as you back yourself into a corner you blame every bugger else. Typical Muslim so maybe you picked right after all !!! ;)
What corner do you imagine that I am backed into?
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An islamofascist talking about tolerance - oxymoron surely!!
What's an islamofascist?
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G
As you well know there are ALL sorts within each religion. We both know some of the best people we've known through our lives have been any faith. NO faith has a monopoly on goodness, although Islam thinks it does !?!? ;)
People are quite free to choose their 'way' but they must be very well versed in what they're 'getting themselves into' !!!
What am I getting myself into? I have been a Muslim for over 20 years, have gone on Hajj, been to various Muslim countries - it's worked for me so far.
I haven't experienced anything bad that I would never have experienced if I had remained an atheist, and I have experienced some benefits that I didn't experience as an atheist.
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I think at the very least it should be marked so that people can choose whether to eat it. Especially when it's hidden in prepared food.
Do you mean all meat that is from factory farms or from animals that have been transported humanely should be marked? Or do you mean halal meat from animals that weren't stunned should be marked, or all halal meat? Because 90% of halal is from animals that are stunned before being killed.
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I think at the very least it should be marked so that people can choose whether to eat it. Especially when it's hidden in prepared food.
Do you mean all meat that is from factory farms or from animals that have been transported humanely should be marked? Or do you mean halal meat from animals that weren't stunned should be marked, or all halal meat? Because 90% of halal is from animals that are stunned before being killed.
Knifed, stunned: it's still death, so that you people can stuff your faces, without another thought.
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In which case that's a General issue, rather than restricting it to a Muslim issue by putting it on the Muslim Board.
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No but the 'choice' is there.
What choice?
A bigot tends to remain a bigot no matter what religion they join, they often take that bit in with them.
An ignoramus will always remain an ignoramus eh Julie?
Btw, how's that TLC going for those Brit jihadis who have gone to join IS. I remember your solution was to offer tea and sympathy for these beheaders, murderers and rapists when they returned back to the UK. After you have smothered them with love, you can go back to knitting and woman's own. You ain't going to be a brain of Britain in the near future, are ya?
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This is precisely what I've always thought about people who religion - windowshop.
Converts who are looking not for the Truth, whatever THAT is, but something they understand & fits in with THEIR life & future ambitions.
By religion "windowshopping" do you mean the pick and mix approach, taking a bit from this and a bit from that and a bit from this other? Because if so, the evidence is against you - on the whole such people are the least likely to fall prey to dogmatic, narrow, intolerant ideologies and resort to violence. These are the people, you'll remember, who are habitually called wishy-washy or cafeteria Catholics or whatever, taking whichever bits of which traditions that suit them and leaving the rest. This sort of practice could be criticised on some grounds (though predominantly by one-true-wayers and single truth people), but not on the grounds that they end up as members of ISIS (or equivalent).
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I think at the very least it should be marked so that people can choose whether to eat it. Especially when it's hidden in prepared food.
Do you mean all meat that is from factory farms or from animals that have been transported humanely should be marked? Or do you mean halal meat from animals that weren't stunned should be marked, or all halal meat? Because 90% of halal is from animals that are stunned before being killed.
I mean all halal meat. So that people of other religions can choose to avoid it should they wish.
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I think at the very least it should be marked so that people can choose whether to eat it. Especially when it's hidden in prepared food.
Do you mean all meat that is from factory farms or from animals that have been transported humanely should be marked? Or do you mean halal meat from animals that weren't stunned should be marked, or all halal meat? Because 90% of halal is from animals that are stunned before being killed.
All slaughtering should be stopped, in a civilised world. But even if your figure of 90% stunning in Muslim slaughter houses is correct, then: "In Islam the rules of slaughter are based on Islamic law. The animal has to be alive and healthy, a Muslim has to perform the slaughter in the appropriate ritual manner, and the animal's throat must be cut by a sharp knife severing the carotid artery, jugular vein and windpipe in a single swipe. Blood must be drained out of the carcass." Disgraceful, barbaric, and medieval; and unjustifiable in the 21st. century.
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I think at the very least it should be marked so that people can choose whether to eat it. Especially when it's hidden in prepared food.
Do you mean all meat that is from factory farms or from animals that have been transported humanely should be marked? Or do you mean halal meat from animals that weren't stunned should be marked, or all halal meat? Because 90% of halal is from animals that are stunned before being killed.
All slaughtering should be stopped, in a civilised world. But even if your figure of 90% stunning in Muslim slaughter houses is correct, then: "In Islam the rules of slaughter are based on Islamic law. The animal has to be alive and healthy, a Muslim has to perform the slaughter in the appropriate ritual manner, and the animal's throat must be cut by a sharp knife severing the carotid artery, jugular vein and windpipe in a single swipe. Blood must be drained out of the carcass." Disgraceful, barbaric, and medieval; and unjustifiable in the 21st. century.
If that was how it happened, I think it would be humane, given that the animal should have minimal suffering.
The problem is I think that it doesn't work in a 21st century scale of killing.
"In halal slaughterhouses, animals are shackled and hoisted above the ground where a slaughterman "sticks" them, cutting their throat or inserting a chest stick close to the heart." As I said, barbaric and medieval - it has no place in a civilised society, and we should be ashamed to allow it to happen.
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The concept of 'humane killing' is an oxymoron.
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G
Quite right too, agreed.
This is one of many instances of animal suffering. We don't really need to eat meat anyway !?!?!? ;)
Rose
Halal meat isn't supposed to be stunned first. 'They' say the knives used have to be so sharp the animal doesn't really feel it as it bleeds to death. BUT, as we saw on the video footage, the animal is still conscious after this. :P
According to the RSPCA 90% of halal meat comes from animals that have been stunned, so your views on halal are contradicted by reality.
http://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/slaughter
"The number of animals killed in halal abattoirs without being stunned first soared in the last year, figures have revealed.
Campaigning by Muslims for traditional methods of slaughter has led to a 60 percent rise in the number of non-pain free killings, industry experts said.
Last year 2.4 million sheep and goats had their throats cut without being stunned in halal and kosher abattoirs, according to the British Veterinary Association (BVA).
In halal premium, 37 per cent of sheep and goats, 25 per cent of cattle and 16 per cent of poultry were killed without being stunned first.
For meat to be halal, the animal must be alive when its throat is cut and die from loss of blood." BVA.
It can be up to two minutes for cattle to remain conscious after having their throats cut! It is all so disgusting, in the extreme!
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The concept of 'humane killing' is an oxymoron.
Quite so!
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The concept of 'humane killing' is an oxymoron.
Quite so!
Not quite - the sort of euthanasia as performed on domestic pets involves killing but is humane.
Not that this is involved in mass slaughter for food and by-products, of course; just making the point that killing per se isn't inherently and automatically inhumane.
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An islamofascist talking about tolerance - oxymoron surely!!
What's an islamofascist?
It's what Dadvokat labels all Muslims.
He thinks all Muslims are extremists like Isis.
::)
Interesting - I wonder if he decided that all by himself with his one brain cell or if some bigger boys had to help him come up with that name.
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An islamofascist talking about tolerance - oxymoron surely!!
What's an islamofascist?
It's what Dadvokat labels all Muslims.
He thinks all Muslims are extremists like Isis.
::)
Interesting - I wonder if he decided that all by himself with his one brain cell or if some bigger boys had to help him come up with that name.
I heard on the BBC News earlier this week, that it could be that as many as 50% of Muslims here have at least some sympathy with Da'ish. Interesting, if so.
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I think at the very least it should be marked so that people can choose whether to eat it. Especially when it's hidden in prepared food.
Do you mean all meat that is from factory farms or from animals that have been transported humanely should be marked? Or do you mean halal meat from animals that weren't stunned should be marked, or all halal meat? Because 90% of halal is from animals that are stunned before being killed.
All slaughtering should be stopped, in a civilised world. But even if your figure of 90% stunning in Muslim slaughter houses is correct, then: "In Islam the rules of slaughter are based on Islamic law. The animal has to be alive and healthy, a Muslim has to perform the slaughter in the appropriate ritual manner, and the animal's throat must be cut by a sharp knife severing the carotid artery, jugular vein and windpipe in a single swipe. Blood must be drained out of the carcass." Disgraceful, barbaric, and medieval; and unjustifiable in the 21st. century.
I'm curious - how do you think animals are killed in non-Muslim slaughter houses? Their throats are also cut and the blood drained out of the carcass. Is it ok by you when a Christian or an atheist cuts an animal's throat and drains its blood? If not - why post this on the Muslim Board?
When animals that are carnivores kill other animals for food they also go for the jugular in order to subdue and kill their prey quickly. It's just the best spot to go for, though dogs sometimes go for an another animal's stomach and try to disembowel their prey.
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G
Quite right too, agreed.
This is one of many instances of animal suffering. We don't really need to eat meat anyway !?!?!? ;)
Rose
Halal meat isn't supposed to be stunned first. 'They' say the knives used have to be so sharp the animal doesn't really feel it as it bleeds to death. BUT, as we saw on the video footage, the animal is still conscious after this. :P
According to the RSPCA 90% of halal meat comes from animals that have been stunned, so your views on halal are contradicted by reality.
http://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/slaughter
"The number of animals killed in halal abattoirs without being stunned first soared in the last year, figures have revealed.
Campaigning by Muslims for traditional methods of slaughter has led to a 60 percent rise in the number of non-pain free killings, industry experts said.
Last year 2.4 million sheep and goats had their throats cut without being stunned in halal and kosher abattoirs, according to the British Veterinary Association (BVA).
In halal premium, 37 per cent of sheep and goats, 25 per cent of cattle and 16 per cent of poultry were killed without being stunned first.
For meat to be halal, the animal must be alive when its throat is cut and die from loss of blood." BVA.
It can be up to two minutes for cattle to remain conscious after having their throats cut! It is all so disgusting, in the extreme!
You forgot to copy and paste this bit BA:
Awal Foneini, certification manager of the Halal Food Authority, told The Times that the rise in non-stun killings was due to “stronger campaigning” from Muslims who wrongly believed that stunning killed animals.
Tests were needed to prove to Muslims that the animal would always recover after being stunned, he said.
He added: “If we are given the backing then we can prove to people that whatever information they have that stunning kills animals is not true.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11378667/Sharp-rise-in-halal-abattoirs-slaughtering-animals-without-stunning-them-first.html
So I think there is a solution - providing results of tests to discredit the misinformed campaign, which according to the Halal Food Authority, is based on incorrect assumptions.
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An islamofascist talking about tolerance - oxymoron surely!!
What's an islamofascist?
It's what Dadvokat labels all Muslims.
He thinks all Muslims are extremists like Isis.
::)
Interesting - I wonder if he decided that all by himself with his one brain cell or if some bigger boys had to help him come up with that name.
I heard on the BBC News earlier this week, that it could be that as many as 50% of Muslims here have at least some sympathy with Da'ish. Interesting, if so.
What is the BBC basing this estimate on? I haven't met any Muslims who sympathise with Da'ish - you do know they are slaughtering Muslims?
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G
Quite right too, agreed.
This is one of many instances of animal suffering. We don't really need to eat meat anyway !?!?!? ;)
Rose
Halal meat isn't supposed to be stunned first. 'They' say the knives used have to be so sharp the animal doesn't really feel it as it bleeds to death. BUT, as we saw on the video footage, the animal is still conscious after this. :P
According to the RSPCA 90% of halal meat comes from animals that have been stunned, so your views on halal are contradicted by reality.
http://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/slaughter
"The number of animals killed in halal abattoirs without being stunned first soared in the last year, figures have revealed.
Campaigning by Muslims for traditional methods of slaughter has led to a 60 percent rise in the number of non-pain free killings, industry experts said.
Last year 2.4 million sheep and goats had their throats cut without being stunned in halal and kosher abattoirs, according to the British Veterinary Association (BVA).
In halal premium, 37 per cent of sheep and goats, 25 per cent of cattle and 16 per cent of poultry were killed without being stunned first.
For meat to be halal, the animal must be alive when its throat is cut and die from loss of blood." BVA.
It can be up to two minutes for cattle to remain conscious after having their throats cut! It is all so disgusting, in the extreme!
You forgot to copy and paste this bit BA:
Awal Foneini, certification manager of the Halal Food Authority, told The Times that the rise in non-stun killings was due to “stronger campaigning” from Muslims who wrongly believed that stunning killed animals.
Tests were needed to prove to Muslims that the animal would always recover after being stunned, he said.
He added: “If we are given the backing then we can prove to people that whatever information they have that stunning kills animals is not true.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11378667/Sharp-rise-in-halal-abattoirs-slaughtering-animals-without-stunning-them-first.html
So I think there is a solution - providing results of tests to discredit the misinformed campaign, which according to the Halal Food Authority, is based on incorrect assumptions.
Can I remind you, I am a vegetarian, and all this slaughter, whoever it is by, is anathema to me.
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AND????
Although I DO agree, you don't have to come over here !?!?!?
Sorry, over where?
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Can I remind you, I am a vegetarian, and all this slaughter, whoever it is by, is anathema to me.
Respect, for that, man.
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OK but does that mean ALL NON-veggies are somehow lesser humans????
If it doesn't, it should!
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WELL WHY NOT EH??? ;) ::)
Carries on from your maniacal Christian superiority over all other non-christians.
AND certain Christians here too.
Not really, except you perhaps! ;D
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WELL WHY NOT EH??? ;) ::)
Carries on from your maniacal Christian superiority over all other non-christians.
AND certain Christians here too.
Not really, except you perhaps! ;D
Not a Christian but not an atheist either so ner ner to you thrrppppppp
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AND????
Although I DO agree, you don't have to come over here !?!?!?
Are you talking about Muslims or vegetarians?
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Veggies. But primarily HIM !!!
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OK but does that mean ALL NON-veggies are somehow lesser humans????
If it doesn't, it should!
So much for people being equal.
That walks a fine line on dehumanising because it says some humans are worth less.
Good grief, Rose, telling someone I think they are wrong is not de-humanising them. That's a bizarre comment.
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So you think you're just as 'equal' as a NON Christian?
Do you imagine Christians think themselves to be something other than the equals of their fellow humans?
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Of COurse!!!
Don't you ever look at the attitudes of most near ALL the Christians just on these boards.
How can it be possible that a Christian is equal to a Muslim of a Hindu, in the eyes of Christian doctrine? Where does it say in The Bible ALL men are equal. I said ARE equal not BORN equal BTW ?!?!!??
ANY political group, and we ARE talking politics here, always feels it's better than all else's otherwise it couldn't attract as many adherents.
Whoa whoa , you've got a lot if ideas mixed in together there...
To start with your last point - absolutely not. I belong to a political organisation - the Labour Party. I think that it's beliefs and principles are right ; but that is a million miles away from saying that I think that people who disagree are lesser people, or that we are not all equal.
About Christians - can you (this is a genuine request, I am not being difficult) quote a post for me in which a Christian has said something which seems to you to mean that we think we are something other thn the equals of others. I genuinely want to know why you think that.
As with the Labour point, believing that someone has beliefs which are wrong does not mean that you think that those people are not your equals, so pointing out a Christian saying they think someone's ideas are wrong will not serve, I think, to show that Christians think that they are superior.
If someone says something which I disagree with (like "brown rice is delicious" or "Jesus was homophobic" or "evolution never happened") then I will say so. But me saying "I think you're wrong" isn't the same as me saying "I think you are less than my equal", is it?
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So a child rapist & murderer is your equal, eh?
those are actions, not beliefs
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Of COurse!!!
Don't you ever look at the attitudes of most near ALL the Christians just on these boards.
How can it be possible that a Christian is equal to a Muslim of a Hindu, in the eyes of Christian doctrine? Where does it say in The Bible ALL men are equal. I said ARE equal not BORN equal BTW ?!?!!??
ANY political group, and we ARE talking politics here, always feels it's better than all else's otherwise it couldn't attract as many adherents.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians, 3:28
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OOH GOOD Then I don't need to be a Christian to meet you in Heaven?
Quote from: trippymonkey on Today at 07:15:40 PM
So a child rapist & murderer is your equal, eh?
those are actions, not beliefs
Beliefs become actions. The intention is IN the person.
We are all equal in the sight of God. What we do here, in this life, does not alter that. If someone is cruel, dishonest, or wicked, those actions define his personality, but it does not mean that God will than abandon him as "unequal." It may require that God will make him answerable, just as an earthly father would make a recalcitrant son answerable for his actions.
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No, it should not. Regardless of what the PC brigade and the Vegans have to say.
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No, it should not. Regardless of what the PC brigade and the Vegans have to say.
And why not?
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No, it should not. Regardless of what the PC brigade and the Vegans have to say.
And why not?
Because they are a bossy minority who don't reflect public opinion, but claim to.
I have never met a vegan who claimed to reflect public opinion. Have you? how did all these strange bossy vegans of your acquaintance reconcile the idea that they reflect public opinion with the fact that most people aren't vegans?
the ones I know tend to despair of the fact that their views aren't reflected amongst the general public. I have never encountered them smugly assuming that everyone agrees with them. I don't suppose you have any examples of this happening?
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No, it should not. Regardless of what the PC brigade and the Vegans have to say.
And why not?
Because they are a bossy minority who don't reflect public opinion, but claim to.
I have never met a vegan who claimed to reflect public opinion. Have you? how did all these strange bossy vegans of your acquaintance reconcile the idea that they reflect public opinion with the fact that most people aren't vegans?
the ones I know tend to despair of the fact that their views aren't reflected amongst the general public. I have never encountered them smugly assuming that everyone agrees with them. I don't suppose you have any examples of this happening?
http://youtu.be/7ER_qPZQXx8
http://youtu.be/cTg9-cSeX30
They smugly assume they are right, and are intent on being the voice of public opinion.
But they don't claim to reflect public opinion, as per your claim, do they?
Everyone thinks they're right. You think you're right, don't you?
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No, it should not. Regardless of what the PC brigade and the Vegans have to say.
And why not?
Because they are a bossy minority who don't reflect public opinion, but claim to.
Which vegans where and when claim to reflect public opinion?