Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Hope on July 07, 2015, 06:27:14 PM
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Apparently, in his budget tomorrow, George Osborne is going to give elected Mayors and councils in England and Wales the option of allowing the larger stores - currently restricted to 6 hours - to open for longer on a Sunday.
Putting any religious concerns to one side, do folk believe that this will boost the economy, or will it simply transfer monies from smaller shops, currently allowed to open all day on a Sunday, to the larger stores - and hence, in time, do more damage to the economies of many local places than boosting them?
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I'm always amazed that this is an issue at all in England & Wales. We've had none of these restrictions for years now and it isn't even an issue: just routine.
I'd imagine that any employment issues have long since been sorted, and the large supermarkets that are constrained south of the border operate here too - so they have the practical experience already.
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Apparently, in his budget tomorrow, George Osborne is going to give elected Mayors and councils in England and Wales the option of allowing the larger stores - currently restricted to 6 hours - to open for longer on a Sunday.
Putting any religious concerns to one side, do folk believe that this will boost the economy, or will it simply transfer monies from smaller shops, currently allowed to open all day on a Sunday, to the larger stores - and hence, in time, do more damage to the economies of many local places than boosting them?
It's going to cause lots of animosity and leave local officials subject to pressure from big concerns and I think we know what that spells.
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I'm always amazed that this is an issue at all in England & Wales. We've had none of these restrictions for years now and it isn't even an issue: just routine.
I'd imagine that any employment issues have long since been sorted, and the large supermarkets that are constrained south of the border operate here too - so they have the practical experience already.
If local shopkeepers have to work for supermarkets the taxpayers will have to make up the wages.
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I'm always amazed that this is an issue at all in England & Wales. We've had none of these restrictions for years now and it isn't even an issue: just routine.
I'd imagine that any employment issues have long since been sorted, and the large supermarkets that are constrained south of the border operate here too - so they have the practical experience already.
If local shopkeepers have to work for supermarkets the taxpayers will have to make up the wages.
No idea what this means, Vlad - can you translate?
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I'm always amazed that this is an issue at all in England & Wales. We've had none of these restrictions for years now and it isn't even an issue: just routine.
I'd imagine that any employment issues have long since been sorted, and the large supermarkets that are constrained south of the border operate here too - so they have the practical experience already.
..........does not apply to Lewis.....(note to English readers....the island, not the shop....)
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I'm always amazed that this is an issue at all in England & Wales. We've had none of these restrictions for years now and it isn't even an issue: just routine.
I'd imagine that any employment issues have long since been sorted, and the large supermarkets that are constrained south of the border operate here too - so they have the practical experience already.
I think the issue is not whether the employment issues have been sorted, but whether the large stores will take away more of the small shops trade making them even less viable economically, thus creating unemployment, Gordon.
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Putting any religious concerns to one side ...
There aren't any. If you don't want to shop, don't. It's not compulsory.
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Putting any religious concerns to one side ...
There aren't any. If you don't want to shop, don't. It's not compulsory.
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There are no religious concerns (except in the Western Isles) in Scotland.
Major supermarkets have clauses in contracts which allow those who wish to be exempt from part or full time work on a Sunday to attend church, should they wish to do so.
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Putting any religious concerns to one side ...
There aren't any. If you don't want to shop, don't. It's not compulsory.
What about people who don't want to work on a sunday?
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What of them?
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Dear Shaker,
No, sorry it is stupid humans we are talking about, the shops open, let's go shopping, hey kids let's go to the park, no Dad Tesco is open, let's go and buy more shit we don't need.
Consumerism rules OK!!
Bloody Tories, anti Christian, anti British >:(
Gonnagle.
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What of them?
They should have the right not to protected in Law.
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Shaker, I wanted to see what people feel from an economic perspective. Do they think that such a move will actually do what the Chancellor obviously hopes it will? Perhaps you have no opinion in this respect?
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Major supermarkets have clauses in contracts which allow those who wish to be exempt from part or full time work on a Sunday to attend church, should they wish to do so.
Isn't that illegal or do the same clauses also protect Muslims and Jews who want to attend services on different days of the week?
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I wanted to see what people feel from an economic perspective. Do they think that such a move will actually do what the Chancellor obviously hopes it will? Perhaps you have no opinion in this respect?
Our Scottish friends have had unrestricted Sunday opening for ages. What do they think?
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Putting any religious concerns to one side ...
There aren't any. If you don't want to shop, don't. It's not compulsory.
There are such concerns, Shaker - currently very few people have their right not to work on a Sunday protected in law.
Since when has that been a religious concern?
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Putting any religious concerns to one side ...
There aren't any. If you don't want to shop, don't. It's not compulsory.
There are such concerns, Shaker - currently very few people have their right not to work on a Sunday protected in law. However, unlike you who seems to assume that any debate on such an issue has to have religious overtones, I wanted to see what people feel from an economic perspective. Do they think that such a move will actually do what the Chancellor obviously hopes it will? Perhaps you have no opinion in this respect?
Of course it has "religious overtones"!
The entire morass of Sunday trading laws was to ensure attendance at church and every attempt to modernise the Sunday trading laws has foundered upon the rock of the unelected C of E Bishops and their croneies in ther House of Lords.
Of the rubbish enshrined in the Sunday trading laws the biggest pile was the absurdity of the fact that it was, maybe still is, illegal to sell or buy, I'm not sure which, a Bible on a Sunday!
I'm Pagan and I was asked to inform HR of which days I required off in order to attend any religious events so that the necessary arrangements could be made.
The Entertainer, a children's toy shop, for years refused to take on any member of staff who was anything other than Christian.
The Sunday trading laws, in our now "multicuiltural society" are an irrelevant anachronism.
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I wanted to see what people feel from an economic perspective. Do they think that such a move will actually do what the Chancellor obviously hopes it will? Perhaps you have no opinion in this respect?
Our Scottish friends have had unrestricted Sunday opening for ages. What do they think?
We wonder what the fuss is all about south of the border since the fact that the large supermarkets are open until 10pm on Sundays (apart from weekends that involve Xmas/New Year) - and apart from those that are open 24 hours a day, such as a couple of Asdas that are within a 10 minute drive away.
It has been this way for years here: it is routine and I've yet to see a single frightened horse roaming the streets after 4pm on Sunday afternoons. Since what has happened in Scotland provides a practical example, and where the large supermarket chains here are the same ones that operate in England & Wales I'd imagine that the employment arrangements here would be the basis for this elsewhere.
The 'Sunday is special' brigade presumably insist that their version of 'special' is sacrosanct. Perhaps it is a cultural thing that we in Scotland are simply less bothered about.
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The 'Sunday is special' brigade presumably insist that their version of 'special' is sacrosanct. Perhaps it is a cultural thing that we in Scotland are simply less bothered about.
Gordon, as I've stated several times, this thread is about economics and not whether or not Sunday is special. I realise that you and a couple of other posters hijacked it pretty early on (did you do this so that the real issue I raised shouldn't be discussed), but perhaps you could share the economic experiences of Scotland.
Did the fact that large stores were allowed to open far longer on a Sunday in Scotland than in England have any impact on the smaller, often independent traders that make up many local high streets in Scotland?
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The Entertainer, a children's toy shop, for years refused to take on any member of staff who was anything other than Christian.
Wrong. I know the owner of said chain, and he has made it clear that this is an urban myth. What he has done is refuse to open his shops on a Sunday.
But that is irrelevant to the question I posed in the OP which was, in summary, 'Will allowing larger stores and chains to open for longer on a Sunday, on the assumption that it will boost the economy, have a negative effect on the smaller, sometimes independent stores that are currently allowed to open till late on a Sunday?"
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Putting any religious concerns to one side ...
There aren't any. If you don't want to shop, don't. It's not compulsory.
There are such concerns, Shaker - currently very few people have their right not to work on a Sunday protected in law.
Since when has that been a religious concern?
Since the early days of Trade Unionism, much of which was instigated by Christians in association with others like the Chartists. However, as I've pointed out, that isn't the focus of this thread. Have you tried to avoid the thread topic because you fear that this measure will hve a detrimental effect on the economies of many high streets, but don't want to be seen opposing something that you believe riles the Christians here?
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The 'Sunday is special' brigade presumably insist that their version of 'special' is sacrosanct. Perhaps it is a cultural thing that we in Scotland are simply less bothered about.
Gordon, as I've stated several times, this thread is about economics and not whether or not Sunday is special. I realise that you and a couple of other posters hijacked it pretty early on (did you do this so that the real issue I raised shouldn't be discussed), but perhaps you could share the economic experiences of Scotland.
Did the fact that large stores were allowed to open far longer on a Sunday in Scotland than in England have any impact on the smaller, often independent traders that make up many local high streets in Scotland?
No idea, since the current situation is now so well established here that it isn't live issue anymore - indeed I can't ever recall it being much of an issue to start with excepting in places like Lewis, as Jim noted.
I'd have thought thought that perhaps those in England & Wales who have concerns about small shops should look into what happened here.
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Please note that I have asked the moderators to split all the posts that are trying to discuss the religious aspect of the proposal onto a separate thread - I've suggested a title that they might use.
Please use this thread only to discuss whether the Chancellor's claim that extending the hours that larger stores can trade will boost the economy is realistic, or whether it could damage the trading opportunities of smaller, sometimes independent traders, and potentially be bad for the economy.
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Major supermarkets have clauses in contracts which allow those who wish to be exempt from part or full time work on a Sunday to attend church, should they wish to do so.
Isn't that illegal or do the same clauses also protect Muslims and Jews who want to attend services on different days of the week?
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Well, having visited my local Tesco this morning, I spoke with a Moslem checkout girl (who happens to be a member of a local SNP branch). She said she had the option of not working on a Friday, and using that as one of her two days a week off. Does that help?
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
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It will adversely affect small shopkeepers who are already disadvantaged by the fact that large chains have a buying power they simply cannot match.
Years ago I and my partner had a grocery/off licence for a couple of years (hardest work of my life btw) and the sugar I bought from the local cash and carry was more expensive than the on offer sugar in Tesco's. This will hasten the death of small independent shopkeepers and make us more dependent on monoliths like Tesco, Sainsburys, et al.
As for boosting the economy I doubt it - it will boost the income to George's friends in the aforementioned chains - but overall economic activity - well I don't know about anyone else but I will still have the same amount of money to spend so I don't really see how it will increase economic activity.
It will shift the activity.
But the real question is, to whose advantage?
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
I work during the week so it is more convenient.
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
I work during the week so it is more convenient.
So? I ask again: what difference would an extra hour or two make? You can still do your shopping on a Sunday.
Incidentally, I don't know what your line of work is, but you seem to have ample time to post on here!
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
I work during the week so it is more convenient.
So? I ask again: what difference would an extra hour or two make? You can still do your shopping on a Sunday.
Incidentally, I don't know what your line of work is, but you seem to have ample time to post on here!
I work in It and have several screens all around me, so it's quite easy to leave on on here.
I play sport most days and do not finish till late, and on Sunday things are shut. I would prefer them open.
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
I work during the week so it is more convenient.
So? I ask again: what difference would an extra hour or two make? You can still do your shopping on a Sunday.
Incidentally, I don't know what your line of work is, but you seem to have ample time to post on here!
I work in It and have several screens all around me, so it's quite easy to leave on on here.
I play sport most days and do not finish till late, and on Sunday things are shut. I would prefer them open.
The vast majority of my working life was spent with all shops, except off-licences, closed on sundays; and many had a half- day on Thursday. I managed fine.
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
I work during the week so it is more convenient.
So? I ask again: what difference would an extra hour or two make? You can still do your shopping on a Sunday.
Incidentally, I don't know what your line of work is, but you seem to have ample time to post on here!
I work in It and have several screens all around me, so it's quite easy to leave on on here.
I play sport most days and do not finish till late, and on Sunday things are shut. I would prefer them open.
The vast majority of my working life was spent with all shops, except off-licences, closed on sundays; and many had a half- day on Thursday. I managed fine.
Ok so what.
I prefer the other days when stuff is open 24 hours.
I see no reason why that should not also apply to Sunday.
Why should it be different, it's just another day like any other.
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Agreed.
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
I work during the week so it is more convenient.
So? I ask again: what difference would an extra hour or two make? You can still do your shopping on a Sunday.
Incidentally, I don't know what your line of work is, but you seem to have ample time to post on here!
I work in It and have several screens all around me, so it's quite easy to leave on on here.
I play sport most days and do not finish till late, and on Sunday things are shut. I would prefer them open.
The vast majority of my working life was spent with all shops, except off-licences, closed on sundays; and many had a half- day on Thursday. I managed fine.
Ok so what.
I prefer the other days when stuff is open 24 hours.
I see no reason why that should not also apply to Sunday.
Why should it be different, it's just another day like any other.
Why should shop workers have to work Sundays for your convenience, when you can shop twenty-four hours a day, six days a week, plus six or seven on Sunday, anyway?
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
I work during the week so it is more convenient.
So? I ask again: what difference would an extra hour or two make? You can still do your shopping on a Sunday.
Incidentally, I don't know what your line of work is, but you seem to have ample time to post on here!
I work in It and have several screens all around me, so it's quite easy to leave on on here.
I play sport most days and do not finish till late, and on Sunday things are shut. I would prefer them open.
The vast majority of my working life was spent with all shops, except off-licences, closed on sundays; and many had a half- day on Thursday. I managed fine.
Ok so what.
I prefer the other days when stuff is open 24 hours.
I see no reason why that should not also apply to Sunday.
Why should it be different, it's just another day like any other.
Why should shop workers have to work Sundays for your convenience, when you can shop 24 hours a day, 6 days a week?
Why not, they are a convenience store, and I would find it convenient.
It works in Scotland as has been pointed out, why can it not work here?
They may have to employ more people so more employment which is a good thing.
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Why should shop workers have to work Sundays for your convenience, when you can shop twenty-four hours a day, six days a week, plus six or seven on Sunday, anyway?
He's already said that he can't do that (nor can most people). Did you miss that post?
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I would welcome longer opening hours on Sunday.
I hate the fact that Sunday is a dead day where things close early.
And what massive difference would an extra hour or two make?
I work during the week so it is more convenient.
So? I ask again: what difference would an extra hour or two make? You can still do your shopping on a Sunday.
Incidentally, I don't know what your line of work is, but you seem to have ample time to post on here!
I work in It and have several screens all around me, so it's quite easy to leave on on here.
I play sport most days and do not finish till late, and on Sunday things are shut. I would prefer them open.
The vast majority of my working life was spent with all shops, except off-licences, closed on sundays; and many had a half- day on Thursday. I managed fine.
Ok so what.
I prefer the other days when stuff is open 24 hours.
I see no reason why that should not also apply to Sunday.
Why should it be different, it's just another day like any other.
Why should shop workers have to work Sundays for your convenience, when you can shop 24 hours a day, 6 days a week?
Why not, they are a convenience store, and I would find it convenient.
It works in Scotland as has been pointed out, why can it not work here?
They may have to employ more people so more employment which is a good thing.
There are plenty of convenience stores which are allowed to open all day Sunday: I believe it is down to the amount of floor space they occupy though, I stand to be corrected there.
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My local Tesco and ASDA close around 4 on Sunday.
I would prefer them to stay open, as they do Monday to Saturday.
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My local Tesco and ASDA close around 4 on Sunday.
I would prefer them to stay open, as they do Monday to Saturday.
You're just selfish.
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My local Tesco and ASDA close around 4 on Sunday.
I would prefer them to stay open, as they do Monday to Saturday.
You're just selfish.
It's my opinion.
I think it will create employment.
Are you selfish to not want these people to have the extra work and money?
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My local Tesco and ASDA close around 4 on Sunday.
I would prefer them to stay open, as they do Monday to Saturday.
You're just selfish.
And demanding that a business close, preventing people from availing themselves of it if they want to, isn't?
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My local Tesco and ASDA close around 4 on Sunday.
I would prefer them to stay open, as they do Monday to Saturday.
You're just selfish.
And demanding that a business close, preventing people from availing themselves of it if they want to, isn't?
Of course it isn't, not when there are six other days of, in many cases, twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or so hours on Sunday.
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... which many people can't make use of.
BR doesn't see why a shop regardless of its size shouldn't open as and when it wants to, and nor do I. There are no good arguments against it and lots of good ones for it.
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... If you can't find time to shop during a period of six days of twnty-four hour
BR doesn't see why a shop regardless of its size shouldn't open as and when it wants to, and nor do I. There are no good arguments against it and lots of good ones for it.
Rubbish! if you can't find time in a period of twenty-four hour, six-day, shopping, then you had better get yourself organised better - not forgetting that shops are open on Sunday!
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Shops of a certain purely arbitrary size are open for fewer hours on a Sunday than on the other six days of the week. There is absolutely no valid reason for this whatever. The whole thing is an absurd mess which, it seems, is soon to become ever so slightly less absurd a mess. What we need is a comprehensive overhaul of ST law, but as is the British way (civil partnerships for example) we'll have an extended period of half-arsed, half-hearted fudge and compromise before common sense finally kicks in.
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Shops of a certain purely arbitrary size are open for fewer hours on a Sunday than on the other six days of the week. There is absolutely no valid reason for this whatever.
Be that as it may; there are still plenty of hours available for people to shop adequately now.
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If it boosts trade and employment then I am all for it.
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Shops of a certain purely arbitrary size are open for fewer hours on a Sunday than on the other six days of the week. There is absolutely no valid reason for this whatever.
Be that as it may; there are still plenty of hours available for people to shop adequately now.
So what, more hours makes it easier.
Perhaps you do not work and have all day to shop, I cannot do that.
I do not understand why you object.
Are all the people in Scotland selfish where this seems to work?
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I think it will create employment.
Are you selfish to not want these people to have the extra work and money?
No, people who oppose the idea are not selfish because the experience many of us have had is that activity changes location, rather than volume, and those who were earning a wage prior to the activity changing location either end up on lower wages working for the supermarkets, or on out-of-work benefits. Furthermore, the local authorities lose out on business rate income as small independent shops are forced to close, producers' incomes drop, and landlords have a reduced income and therefore may pay less tax; all-in-all, a lose-lose scenario, unless you're a big supermarket chain.
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I think it will create employment.
Are you selfish to not want these people to have the extra work and money?
No, people who oppose the idea are not selfish because the experience many of us have had is that activity changes location, rather than volume, and those who were earning a wage prior to the activity changing location either end up on lower wages working for the supermarkets, or on out-of-work benefits. Furthermore, the local authorities lose out on business rate income as small independent shops are forced to close, producers' incomes drop, and landlords have a reduced income and therefore may pay less tax; all-in-all, a lose-lose scenario, unless you're a big supermarket chain.
Do you think Scotland has it all wrong then?
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Do you think Scotland has it all wrong then?
For all the noise about Scotland, I'm not sure that they're a realistic comparison.
wikipedia states that:
Scotland has never had any general legislation regarding Sunday trading. However, the Sunday Working (Scotland) Act 2003 prohibits shops from compelling their workers to work on Sunday.
I'm not sure that the legislation covering England and Wales matches the protections given to workers that the 2003 law mentioned above has. Furthermore, because there was never the gradation that we have in England and Wales, they have never had the same issues that face those of us south of the border.
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Dear Berational,
No Scotland has not got it all wrong, the western world has got it all wrong.
This is supposed to be the 21st century but what is the ethos, I must work more hours, woman who say, hell I will have a child and then I will go back to work, bringing up a child is not the hardest job you can have, oh sorry, wait, my bad, the woman our man has to go and work, bringing up a child is so expensive, fuck me, that is the dirtiest circle of life I have ever heard.
Here in the west we still have people working nightshift, the only people who should work nights is the emergency services, working nights is bad for your health, it is a proven fact, hell it is evolutionary.
Why don't we go the full hog, become Las Vegas, open 24/7.
Another wee cracker, we work all the hours God sends and then for just two weeks we go on holiday, as if this will make up for killing yourself the rest of the year.
This Sunday opening time is another Tory body swerve, a third of the children of this world will still live in poverty and people will still risk their crossing the sea to come to this so called land of milk and honey, hang yer head in shame Cameron.
Gonnagle.
This is a official Gonnagle rant, no keyboards were harmed in its production.
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Gonnagle,
It was a rant really.
I would still value being able to treat Sunday as nothing special and open 24 hours.
I would see that as progress.
It's just my opinion, but I cannot see what is wrong with letting businesses open if they want to, and have the staff to do so.
More choice.
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Dear Berational,
Yep, just a rant but one from the heart, for me Sunday opening is just part of a bigger malaise, work harder, work more hours for what!!
Me I prefer, work smarter, work fairly, work less hours, work happily.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Berational,
Yep, just a rant but one from the heart, for me Sunday opening is just part of a bigger malaise, work harder, work more hours for what!!
Me I prefer, work smarter, work fairly, work less hours, work happily.
Gonnagle.
I do that most of the time, but having Sunday open like the other days would just make it easier for me.
I really cannot see the problem.
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More choice.
BR, a couple of years ago, a local disused pub was bought up by Tesco and turned into a Tesco Extra, which is allowed to stay open all day on a Sunday. Within a year, the Spar franchise that was 50 yards along the road and had been serving the local population since the 1990s closed as it couldn't compete. Of their 12 employees, all come from the local area and became unemployed. Ironically, none of the employees of the Tesco at the time came from the area. Within a month, the prices at the Tesco had risen by about 15%. The newsagent that sits immediately alongside the Tesco has diversified so as to pick up on some of the Tesco's custom - and now stocks tinned food, milk and other stuff like that, as well as a few newspapers and other newsagenty things.
Prices in that area soon became proportionately higher than they were before Tesco arrived and what is available to the public has dropped. More choice? In no way.
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Dear Berational,
Well maybe not you or me, I have finished work for today and am now procrastinating on this forum.
But others work long hours, no time in the day to chill, lay back, smell the roses, their days off are spent playing catch up.
One day when the world shuts down, we should all have implants, if you even mention work, mild electric shock.
Gonnagle.
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Gonnagle,
It was a rant really.
I would still value being able to treat Sunday as nothing special and open 24 hours.
I would see that as progress.
It's just my opinion, but I cannot see what is wrong with letting businesses open if they want to, and have the staff to do so.
More choice.
It would mean commerce controlled all our lives in every department.
Your typos might not mind because you guys don't think you are anything but an illusion but I exist and I fucking mind.
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The 'Sunday is special' brigade presumably insist that their version of 'special' is sacrosanct. Perhaps it is a cultural thing that we in Scotland are simply less bothered about.
Gordon, as I've stated several times, this thread is about economics and not whether or not Sunday is special.
And Gordon seems to be saying that economic Armageddon did not happen in Scotland.
Did the fact that large stores were allowed to open far longer on a Sunday in Scotland than in England have any impact on the smaller, often independent traders that make up many local high streets in Scotland?
My local supermarket has a much larger range of products at lower prices than any of the nearby independent traders. Why is it so important to protect them?
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It would mean commerce controlled all our lives in every department.
That would be the result of shops opening for the same amount of hours on a Sunday as on a Saturday?
Not hysterically over the top at all, then.
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My local supermarket has a much larger range of products at lower prices than any of the nearby independent traders.
I explained this further up the thread. The buying power of Tesco's, SBS, etc means that small traders cannot in some cases get wholesale prices cheaper than the price on the shop floor at Tesco's. If you want retail dominated by big companies you will have no problem with this - but as it will,and already is, leading to less competition, not more, than I think it is a bad thing. And some measure of protection is needed for small businesses.
Or alternatively you force suppliers to sell their goods at an equal price across the board ensuring a fairer playing field.
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My objection is more social than religious.
Having everything open all the time makes it harder for families to have a day out together.
In some ways Sunday's are horrible now, and often more busy than Saturday's.
Sunday's used to be a great day for families to relax together without all the shopping.
You went for a walk or enjoyed the garden.
Now either half the family is working or families are just spending more time queuing in tescos for their weekly shop.
Sunday's are just so busy now.
I have much the same feelings Rose. There used to be a different quality to Sundays (irrespective of the religious element) that I quite appreciated - now long gone so I don't think it will ever return. However I do also feel for those that work shifts and irregular hours who find it difficult to get to the shops at regular times - but I still think you must be very hard-pressed if Sunday is the only time you can make it.
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Having everything open all the time makes it harder for families to have a day out together.
How does it? Are shops magnetic? Do they have Death Star-esque tractor beams sucking in unwilling passersby?
In some ways Sunday's are horrible now, and often more busy than Saturday's.
The Sundays I remember as a kid were horrible, oftentimes (especially when it was raining) so boring that it was almost nausea-inducing.
Presumably Sundays are busier than Saturdays because people have less time in which to shop, and have to pile in and get it done with because for some stupid reason the shop shuts at four o'clock.
Sunday's used to be a great day for families to relax together without all the shopping.
They still are, if you want them to be. Shopping is legal, not compulsory, and to suggest otherwise is as mindless as those by now old men (it's invariably men - Synonym dusted this one off, gave it a squirt of WD40 and a wipe and pressed it into service not long back) who said that homosexuality being legal was the prelude to its being compulsory.
You went for a walk or enjoyed the garden.
It was so sad when they made those things illegal back in 1994.
Oh no, wait, they didn't, and you're spouting bullshit as usual.
Now either half the family is working or families are just spending more time queuing in tescos for their weekly shop.
Sunday's are just so busy now.
Well, you could always reduce the busy-ness by at least one and look after your geraniums.
And I've no time for this endless fetishisation of bloody families either, as though everybody has one (some people don't) or wants to spend any more time with them than they actually have to (some people don't). Let people make their own choices about how they spend their time, which may include things other than playing Cluedo and trimming the privet.
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My objection is more social than religious.
Having everything open all the time makes it harder for families to have a day out together.
In some ways Sunday's are horrible now, and often more busy than Saturday's.
Sunday's used to be a great day for families to relax together without all the shopping.
You went for a walk or enjoyed the garden.
Now either half the family is working or families are just spending more time queuing in tescos for their weekly shop.
Sunday's are just so busy now.
Surely, it's all about choice.
I like the option of having Sunday available to shop or whatever, and you prefer to spend it in the garden.
We can do both.
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Surely, it's all about choice.
I like the option of having Sunday available to shop or whatever, and you prefer to spend it in the garden.
We can do both.
Seems simple enough to me, but others appear to be struggling with it for some reason.
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Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!
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Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!
Some of us know that. Some people, for their own reasons, pretend not to.
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Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!
Some of us know that. Some people, for their own reasons, pretend not to.
Not pretending not to, at all. Just don't like the fact that Sunday is now indistinguishable from every other day. That indistinguishability imo is not to benefit us - but to benefit businesses like the aforementioned.
Why, for your own reasons you can't understand that I don't know. ;)
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Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!
Some of us know that. Some people, for their own reasons, pretend not to.
Not pretending not to, at all. Just don't like the fact that Sunday is now indistinguishable from every other day. That indistinguishability imo is not to benefit us - but to benefit businesses like the aforementioned.
Why, for your own reasons you can't understand that I don't know. ;)
I like the fact it is like any other day.
I used to hate Sundays when I was young as it was a dead day.
Having Sunday as just another day simply increases choice.
I use it as I want, and you as you want.
Otherwise you are insisting that I use Sundays as you do, and that limits my choice.
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Just because the shops are open all day on a Sunday doesn't mean it is mandatory to go shopping if you prefer not to!
Some of us know that. Some people, for their own reasons, pretend not to.
Not pretending not to, at all. Just don't like the fact that Sunday is now indistinguishable from every other day. That indistinguishability imo is not to benefit us - but to benefit businesses like the aforementioned.
Why, for your own reasons you can't understand that I don't know. ;)
I like the fact it is like any other day.
I used to hate Sundays when I was young as it was a dead day.
Having Sunday as just another day simply increases choice.
I use it as I want, and you as you want.
Otherwise you are insisting that I use Sundays as you do, and that limits my choice.
... and there's the nub of it.
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I have already acknowledged that it is unlikely to change back to the previous state of affairs. I am just expressing my dislike for the change in the nature of the day. I liked the fact that Sunday was different. I dislike the fact that it is now pretty much the same as any other day.
I want Christmas Day to be exactly the same as every other day. Force staff in shops to work to provide me with the service I demand in the name of conformity and commerce.
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I have already acknowledged that it is unlikely to change back to the previous state of affairs. I am just expressing my dislike for the change in the nature of the day. I liked the fact that Sunday was different.
Your Sundays must have been different to mine, then. As I remember them, they were absolutely bleeding awful.
I want Christmas Day to be exactly the same as every other day. Force staff in shops to work to provide me with the service I demand in the name of conformity and commerce.
I don't want anybody forced to work, but in two countries with a combined population of about 57,000,000 people (England & Wales) I can't see it being too hard to find any number of people happy to work not only on Sundays but on Easter Sunday and Christmas Day. Unlikely I'd be nipping to Waitrose on Christmas afternoon, but that's fine by me. I say let them.
Conformity, by the way, is when everyone does the same thing, which is apparently what Rose wants to see; what BR and I want to see is the opposite of that.
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Ok. Enjoy your headlong rush into meaningless consumerism. I sincerely hope it brings about the "choice" (scare quotes for you there) that you so cherish.
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Ok. Enjoy your headlong rush into meaningless consumerism. I sincerely hope it brings about the "choice" (scare quotes for you there) that you so cherish.
Not sure why you see it as so dangerous.
It's just one more day!
And you can continue to treat it just the same as you do now. I am not looking to limit your choice, so why would you mine?
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Apparently, in his budget tomorrow, George Osborne is going to give elected Mayors and councils in England and Wales the option of allowing the larger stores - currently restricted to 6 hours - to open for longer on a Sunday.
Putting any religious concerns to one side, do folk believe that this will boost the economy, or will it simply transfer monies from smaller shops, currently allowed to open all day on a Sunday, to the larger stores - and hence, in time, do more damage to the economies of many local places than boosting them?
This is good news and too long coming.
England and Wales really have been terribly backward on this. My Dad before he died lived in Dumfries and it was so much more civilised on a Sunday than south of the border. Go out all day on a Sunday, perhaps for an extended walk or down to the beach safe in the knowledge that the supermarket would still be open at the end of the day to stock up on supplies (my Dad never bought in enough for a visiting family of five).
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Ok. Enjoy your headlong rush into meaningless consumerism. I sincerely hope it brings about the "choice" (scare quotes for you there) that you so cherish.
Actually exactly the opposite - longer opening on a Sunday allows me to fit the necessary but boring chore of shopping around our normal hectic family life, not the other way around.
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Apparently, in his budget tomorrow, George Osborne is going to give elected Mayors and councils in England and Wales the option of allowing the larger stores - currently restricted to 6 hours - to open for longer on a Sunday.
Putting any religious concerns to one side, do folk believe that this will boost the economy, or will it simply transfer monies from smaller shops, currently allowed to open all day on a Sunday, to the larger stores - and hence, in time, do more damage to the economies of many local places than boosting them?
This is good news and too long coming.
England and Wales really have been terribly backward on this. My Dad before he died lived in Dumfries and it was so much more civilised on a Sunday than south of the border. Go out all day on a Sunday, perhaps for an extended walk or down to the beach safe in the knowledge that the supermarket would still be open at the end of the day to stock up on supplies (my Dad never bought in enough for a visiting family of five).
Unsurprisingly I'm in full agreement with you on this (as with so much else), Prof.
So what is it, do you think, that explains the fairly remarkable level of hostility to the idea? Why is it seen by some people to be such an affront that, while they are at home, shops are open which they don't have to visit?
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Apparently, in his budget tomorrow, George Osborne is going to give elected Mayors and councils in England and Wales the option of allowing the larger stores - currently restricted to 6 hours - to open for longer on a Sunday.
Putting any religious concerns to one side, do folk believe that this will boost the economy, or will it simply transfer monies from smaller shops, currently allowed to open all day on a Sunday, to the larger stores - and hence, in time, do more damage to the economies of many local places than boosting them?
This is good news and too long coming.
England and Wales really have been terribly backward on this. My Dad before he died lived in Dumfries and it was so much more civilised on a Sunday than south of the border. Go out all day on a Sunday, perhaps for an extended walk or down to the beach safe in the knowledge that the supermarket would still be open at the end of the day to stock up on supplies (my Dad never bought in enough for a visiting family of five).
Unsurprisingly I'm in full agreement with you on this (as with so much else), Prof.
So what is it, do you think, that explains the fairly remarkable level of hostility to the idea? Why is it seen by some people to be such an affront that, while they are at home, shops are open which they don't have to visit?
I think some people just hate the idea of change. And also there is a level of parochialism about it. I'm sure that there are plenty of people in England blissfully unaware that you can pop into Morrisons in Dumfries at 8am or 6pm on a Sunday and that the world hasn't fallen in and nor are the 'workers' up in arms about being exploited.
Actually on work, I think there will be plenty of students absolutely delighted by this - they now have the ability to work a bit longer on a day that is available to them and won't interfere with their studies. And I also suspect that currently in England many workers hate being rostered on a Sunday because it effectively knocks out the whole of the day, but only allows them to work 6 hours, rather than the standard 8-9. So a lot of disruption for not a lot of reward.
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Dear Berational,
Yep, just a rant but one from the heart, for me Sunday opening is just part of a bigger malaise, work harder, work more hours for what!!
Me I prefer, work smarter, work fairly, work less hours, work happily.
Gonnagle.
Sure I understand the issue of long hours working etc etc. But I think you are missing the point.
One of the key things that people want these days is flexibility - the days when people clocking in at 9am and clocked out at 5pm Monday to Friday are long gone. People have complicated lives, needing to fit their work commitments around their families, leisure activities etc etc, which don't necessarily work well with that old fashioned work schedule.
And people do need to shop - but they want the shop's opening hours to work around them, not for them to have to work around the shop's opening hours.
So here is a good example - my own upcoming weekend.
Saturday morning is filled with kids stuff, so two kids who need to be taken to piano, and then one that goes to a gymnastics class later in the morning. So that is Saturday morning out for any shopping.
Saturday afternoon we at a summer fete all afternoon and then straight out to a friend's 40th birthday do. So that is the rest of Saturday out.
Sunday we need to be on standby to pick up our eldest coming back from Duke of Edinburgh expedition (from about 12) and I have a rehearsal and two performances with my choir in the afternoon and into the evening. Yet there are all sorts of things we need to get in preparation for holidays etc - kids shoes, clothes etc. If the shops were open at 9am on a Sunday that would work, but because they don't open until 11 that's going to be a real problem.
And that is pretty common.
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I wonder how we used to cope. It must have been so very difficult to survive.
In fact I wonder how Germany copes now - when all major department stores and supermarkets are closed on a Sunday.
Oh that's right. They cope perfectly fine.
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I wonder how we used to cope. It must have been so very difficult to survive.
In fact I wonder how Germany copes now - when all major department stores and supermarkets are closed on a Sunday.
Oh that's right. They cope perfectly fine.
Why should I have to settle by merely being able to cope.
I don't want simply to cope - which effectively means fitting life around when the shops are open, I'd like it the other way around, being able to fit shopping around my life. What's so wrong with that?
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I wonder how we used to cope. It must have been so very difficult to survive.
In fact I wonder how Germany copes now - when all major department stores and supermarkets are closed on a Sunday.
Oh that's right. They cope perfectly fine.
You can make do with any situation if you had to.
Why do we have to?
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I wonder how some of you would cope in the rest of Europe. Most shops and banks close at three. And that's in the week.
But in many places they open again and stay open until late into the evening. Perhaps not the case for banks, but certainly for shops.
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I wonder how some of you would cope in the rest of Europe. Most shops and banks close at three. And that's in the week.
Just an example (plucked because it is a UK company), the M&S in Amsterdam is open until at least 8:30 every evening 7 days a week.
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As I have already said the situation is unlikely to revert to former days, I don't know why you feel the need to persuade me that unfettered consumerism is a good thing. I don't think it is. You aren't going to change my mind anymore than I am going to change yours.
It does appear in some posters eyes to be almost criminal to have a different pov on opening times on Sundays.
My apologies for suggesting that restricting the time you spend choosing your brand of prosecco or baked beans might be a good thing. Or for even mentioning that there are 6 other days of the week when you can do this and in my part of the country, 24 hours a day in the Tescos up the road.
Clearly I am wrong and Tesco's, SBS General food, KJS etc, etc all have our best interests at heart. Happy shopping.
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As I have already said the situation is unlikely to revert to former days, I don't know why you feel the need to persuade me that unfettered consumerism is a good thing. I don't think it is. You aren't going to change my mind anymore than I am going to change yours.
This isn't about consumerism - quite the reverse it is about the 'shops being the slave of me' (i.e. open to fit around my life) rather than 'me being the slave of the shops' (i.e. I have to fit my life around them).
It does appear in some posters eyes to be almost criminal to have a different pov on opening times on Sundays.
You are missing the point - no-one is forcing you to shop on Sunday - that's your choice. If you decide not to shop on a Sunday that's absolutely fine by me (and I think every other person here arguing for extended opening). But the reverse isn't the case. You want me to be prevented from shopping on a Sunday (or rather the extended hours). So you are imposing your view on me, I am not imposing my view on you.
My apologies for suggesting that restricting the time you spend choosing your brand of prosecco or baked beans might be a good thing. Or for even mentioning that there are 6 other days of the week when you can do this and in my part of the country, 24 hours a day in the Tescos up the road.
Clearly I am wrong and Tesco's, SBS General food, KJS etc, etc all have our best interests at heart. Happy shopping.
But the point is that this restriction regularly means I have to change what I would ideally wish to do simply because the shops aren't open when I need them to be (see my earlier post). And if Tesco (actually Morrisons near me) wants to open longer hours, there are people happy to work during those hours, and customers who would find it more convenient and less disruptive to their lives to shop during those extended hours, why on earth should we be prevented from doing so?
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As I have already said the situation is unlikely to revert to former days, I don't know why you feel the need to persuade me that unfettered consumerism is a good thing. I don't think it is. You aren't going to change my mind anymore than I am going to change yours.
It does appear in some posters eyes to be almost criminal to have a different pov on opening times on Sundays.
My apologies for suggesting that restricting the time you spend choosing your brand of prosecco or baked beans might be a good thing. Or for even mentioning that there are 6 other days of the week when you can do this and in my part of the country, 24 hours a day in the Tescos up the road.
Clearly I am wrong and Tesco's, SBS General food, KJS etc, etc all have our best interests at heart. Happy shopping.
I am not saying that. If that's how you feel, that's how you feel.
I just wanted you to appreciate that others, like me think differently that's all.
The changes will not affect you if you do not want them to, but I will find it better.
You can shop once a week between 15:00 and 15:30 if that's good for you, I prefer 24/7.
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As I have already said the situation is unlikely to revert to former days, I don't know why you feel the need to persuade me that unfettered consumerism is a good thing. I don't think it is. You aren't going to change my mind anymore than I am going to change yours.
It does appear in some posters eyes to be almost criminal to have a different pov on opening times on Sundays.
My apologies for suggesting that restricting the time you spend choosing your brand of prosecco or baked beans might be a good thing. Or for even mentioning that there are 6 other days of the week when you can do this and in my part of the country, 24 hours a day in the Tescos up the road.
Clearly I am wrong and Tesco's, SBS General food, KJS etc, etc all have our best interests at heart. Happy shopping.
Not very long ago quite a few people let it be known just how unhappy they were - really unhappy in some cases - with the likelihood that couples of the same sex would be allowed to get married the same as opposite sex couples. It didn't feature with them that they themselves were probably straight and therefore never had any intention of going in for this same sex marriage thingy; the fact that they disliked it as much as they did was sufficient justification, to them, for wanting to stop other people, a fairly small number of people in the great scheme of things, doing something that they didn't want to do.
You didn't accept that tack with equal marriage; why with Sunday trading?
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And here's another, in my view not especially tenuous comparison with equal marriage.
Some people are afraid that extended opening hours on a Sunday or the maximal version, a 24/7 society, will have deleterious and damaging effects on society somehow. That's a legitimate concern - nobody wants society to be damaged - but how realistic is it? Anti-equal marriage people argue that equal marriage somehow damages society in some nebulous, vague, wavy-handy way. The point is that this isn't an untried experiment; it isn't something you have to guess at; you don't have to sit in an armchair puffing away on your pipe, pondering it, wondering "What if ...?" The first country to make equal marriage law was the Netherlands. That was back in 2001. Others have followed suit in dribs and drabs, but they were the first. Fourteen years on I think Dutch society, certainly in terms of social cohesion, liberalism, tolerance and equality, is doing just fine.
Skip to Sunday trading. Here the argument is stronger, because Sunday trading here goes back to 1994. It was done in the usual half-arsed, spit-and-sealing-wax fudged way that the British so often (preferentially, it seems) do things, but be that as it may or may it be not as it may not be, we had the change in the law twenty-one years ago. Are we worse off now than any time up to 1994, and specifically for that reason? I can't see how. The opposite, I think. I think we're better off in certain respects for the reasons that Prof. D outlined in an earlier post: it offers greater flexibility for those who need it, which often means working folk and especially working folk with kids and otherwise busy lives.
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My apologies for suggesting that restricting the time you spend choosing your brand of prosecco or baked beans might be a good thing. Or for even mentioning that there are 6 other days of the week when you can do this and in my part of the country, 24 hours a day in the Tescos up the road.
So come on then when would you prefer me to shop.
I've given the situation over this weekend - Saturday is completely out. But what about this week and last weekend.
Well last weekend I was away all weekend (left Friday afternoon, back late afternoon Sunday - after the shops had shut.
Monday-Friday - work as normal, which usually involves leaving the house at 8am and returning at 7pm.
Monday evening, we had a relative staying and my wife was out at the gym
Tuesday - Governors meeting 7-9:30
Wednesday - choir rehearsal leave house at 7:30 - back at 10
Thursday - choir rehearsal leave house at 7:30 - back at 10
Friday evening - yup it's free, but guess what Fridays are kind of sacrosanct to me and my wife - we like an evening in the two of us.
A touch more manic than usual, but not much.
Our shops aren't 24 hours so the only time would stop us having our Friday evening. And even if they were, after work and evening commitments, I'd kind of like to unwind and sleep.
So you see having the shops open for a sensible length on Sunday helps me to fit shopping around my life, otherwise I have to fit my life around my shopping.
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You are missing the point - no-one is forcing you to shop on Sunday - that's your choice.
I am not missing the point. I have understood everything you and others have posted. I still don't like it. I cannot change the way I feel. sunday was a nicer day for the shops being closed.
Indeed when I'm in Germany as I am every year on holiday. I always feel that Sunday there is better becasue the shops aren't open.
I accept that it isn't going to be that way here - partly because it is more convenient for some - and partly (a larger part) because it is what big business wants. I still don't have to like it. Or think that it's a good thing. Because I don't.
got a color TV for a limited time.
and you can have it by tonight, it'll bend your mind.
I wouldn't just sell it to an ordinary fool,
y' have to be sure that the fool has cool.
Since you look like a man with heart and soul.
If you buy it from me now, you get a free mixing bowl.
I'll even let you have a little button I' got
that says have a nice day , you're gonna like it a lot.
Popular music is the national craze.
Rock and Roll stars have the kids in a daze.
But twist the knob around for a different point of view
and you'll twist that knob till it comes unscrewed.
There's only one song that the TV sings and that's
Pennies From Heaven, while the register rings.
So it's easy to see, right from the start
that what makes good money, makes good art.
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Trent.
Ok I accept it is nicer for you.
Do you accept that it is not nice for me?
Do you accept that the change need not affect you if you do not wish it to?
Why would you want to impose your view of what is nice on me?
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You are missing the point - no-one is forcing you to shop on Sunday - that's your choice.
I am not missing the point. I have understood everything you and others have posted. I still don't like it. I cannot change the way I feel. sunday was a nicer day for the shops being closed.
Indeed when I'm in Germany as I am every year on holiday. I always feel that Sunday there is better becasue the shops aren't open.
I accept that it isn't going to be that way here - partly because it is more convenient for some - and partly (a larger part) because it is what big business wants. I still don't have to like it. Or think that it's a good thing. Because I don't.
got a color TV for a limited time.
and you can have it by tonight, it'll bend your mind.
I wouldn't just sell it to an ordinary fool,
y' have to be sure that the fool has cool.
Since you look like a man with heart and soul.
If you buy it from me now, you get a free mixing bowl.
I'll even let you have a little button I' got
that says have a nice day , you're gonna like it a lot.
Popular music is the national craze.
Rock and Roll stars have the kids in a daze.
But twist the knob around for a different point of view
and you'll twist that knob till it comes unscrewed.
There's only one song that the TV sings and that's
Pennies From Heaven, while the register rings.
So it's easy to see, right from the start
that what makes good money, makes good art.
But what you are saying is that because you don't like shops being open on a Sunday they mustn't be, even if the shops want to open, there are people perfectly happy to work there and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours than the current restricted hours (perhaps because it helps them to enjoy their life more, so more stuff with family etc). Despite the fact that them being open a little longer doesn't have any real impact on you whatsoever and their is absolutely nothing that will force you to shop on a Sunday if you choose not to.
That seems to me to be a rather selfish view to me.
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Dearie Me,
Shaker was bored on a Sunday, good news he can now spend his time walking the aisles of Tesco.
What a thread, Sunday opening is a bad idea, you all know it, plus it is a Tory dodge, big stores putting the little guy out of business but you still insist Sunday opening is a good thing.
Tories are all for the working man, bullshit!
Tory ethos, work 24/7 spend 24/7.
Gonnagle.
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Dearie Me,
Shaker was bored on a Sunday, good news he can now spend his time walking the aisles of Tesco.
What a thread, Sunday opening is a bad idea, you all know it, plus it is a Tory dodge, big stores putting the little guy out of business but you still insist Sunday opening is a good thing.
Tories are all for the working man, bullshit!
Tory ethos, work 24/7 spend 24/7.
Gonnagle.
No you are wrong.
I do not know that it is a bad idea.
In fact I thing the reverse is true.
You know it's the correct thing to do as well.
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Your Sundays must have been different to mine, then. As I remember them, they were absolutely bleeding awful.
Though mine weren't the highlight of the week - I played competitive sport on at least 5 of the other days of the week - but they were in no way 'bleeding awful'. In fact, it was a day on which I could regather my energy.
Conformity, by the way, is when everyone does the same thing, which is apparently what Rose wants to see; what BR and I want to see is the opposite of that.
Thankfully there are a number of shops, both large and small, who decide not to conform to society's wish that they open 7 days a week.
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Your Sundays must have been different to mine, then. As I remember them, they were absolutely bleeding awful.
Though mine weren't the highlight of the week - I played competitive sport on at least 5 of the other days of the week - but they were in no way 'bleeding awful'. In fact, it was a day on which I could regather my energy.
Conformity, by the way, is when everyone does the same thing, which is apparently what Rose wants to see; what BR and I want to see is the opposite of that.
Thankfully there are a number of shops, both large and small, who decide not to conform to society's wish that they open 7 days a week.
I do not mind if they choose not to open.
Why do you want to stop those that do.
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Why would you want to impose your view of what is nice on me?
The same could be asked of you in regard to wishing to impose your view on what is nice, on others.
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Dearie Me,
Shaker was bored on a Sunday, good news he can now spend his time walking the aisles of Tesco.
That's right - I could do if I wanted to. I don't - I can't remember the last time I shopped on a Sunday, actually - but it's nice to have the option.
What a thread, Sunday opening is a bad idea, you all know it
No, I think it's a very good idea.
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Why would you want to impose your view of what is nice on me?
The same could be asked of you in regard to wishing to impose your view on what is nice, on others.
In what way do I propose to do that?
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Dearie Me,
Shaker was bored on a Sunday, good news he can now spend his time walking the aisles of Tesco.
What a thread, Sunday opening is a bad idea, you all know it, plus it is a Tory dodge, big stores putting the little guy out of business but you still insist Sunday opening is a good thing.
Tories are all for the working man, bullshit!
Tory ethos, work 24/7 spend 24/7.
Gonnagle.
Blimey, missing the point by a mile.
I hate shopping - it is a necessary evil. I don't want to shop 24/7 - it is the last thing I want to do. But I recognise it needs to be done and I want to be able to shop at my convenience, to fit around my life not the other way round.
And boredom - blimey what was that. I don't want to shop to fend off the boredom. I've got a life stuffed full of ... well stuff. I want to be able to shop to fit around all that stuff (work, family, voluntary stuff, leisure stuff), all of which are more important to me than shopping.
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In what way do I propose to do that?
By requiring that shops are open at any time that you want to do shopping.
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In what way do I propose to do that?
By requiring that shops are open at any time that you want to do shopping.
I don't REQUIRE them to.
I want then to have the FREEDOM to is they so choose.
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In what way do I propose to do that?
By requiring that shops are open at any time that you want to do shopping.
Well of course on-line shops already are, but not everything is easily bought that way.
But certainly by ensuring shops are able to open for a sensible amount of time on one of the days (Sunday) when the majority of people have some level of flexibility to go shopping.
Frankly if there was a law that only allowed shops to open on 6 of the 7 days of the week it would be much more sensible for that closed day to be a Tuesday (for example) rather than one of the weekend days.
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But certainly by ensuring shops are able to open for a sensible amount of time on one of the days (Sunday) when the majority of people have some level of flexibility to go shopping.
Frankly if there was a law that only allowed shops to open on 6 of the 7 days of the week it would be much more sensible for that closed day to be a Tuesday (for example) rather than one of the weekend days.
PD, BR has made it clear that he wants shops to be open at any time of the day he chooses/wants to go shopping. In other words, his wishes should be taken in account over those who might be required to staff those shops in order for him to be able to exercise his wishes.
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But certainly by ensuring shops are able to open for a sensible amount of time on one of the days (Sunday) when the majority of people have some level of flexibility to go shopping.
Frankly if there was a law that only allowed shops to open on 6 of the 7 days of the week it would be much more sensible for that closed day to be a Tuesday (for example) rather than one of the weekend days.
PD, BR has made it clear that he wants shops to be open at any time of the day he chooses/wants to go shopping. In other words, his wishes should be taken in account over those who might be required to staff those shops in order for him to be able to exercise his wishes.
NO NO NO that is not correct.
I want them to have the option to open if they want to and indeed can with the staff.
I do not want to force them to open, like you want to force them to close.
I am all about freedom.
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PD, BR has made it clear that he wants shops to be open at any time of the day he chooses/wants to go shopping. In other words, his wishes should be taken in account over those who might be required to staff those shops in order for him to be able to exercise his wishes.
Nobody should be compelled to work on a Sunday should they not wish to, nor will you find anyone here arguing as much. That's an issue however for good employment law, not for prohibiting Sunday trading in toto, against which there are no good arguments.
I happen not to find it unlikely that out of 57,000,000 people you'll be able to find all the ones you need more than happy to work on a Sunday - some people are, you know.
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Dearie Me,
Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.
Bad idea.
Gonnagle.
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And boredom - blimey what was that.
Sundays in the 1970s, 80s and early 90s.
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And boredom - blimey what was that.
Sundays in the 1970s, 80s and early 90s.
Annie Nightingale on the radio playing this is Sunday for me
http://m.youtube.com/?gl=GB&hl=en-GB#/watch?v=gXNhL4J_S00
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NO NO NO that is not correct.
I want them to have the option to open if they want to and indeed can with the staff.
I do not want to force them to open, like you want to force them to close.
I am all about freedom.
3 x 'I want'. ;) No consideration for the owners/staff who would be required to be present in order for your 'want' to occur.
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3 x 'I want'. ;) No consideration for the owners/staff who would be required to be present in order for your 'want' to occur.
Why would they have to be required if we had employment laws which forbid this?
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Dear Mildred,
Freedom, what the hell is that!! I will now pass this thread over to our Sane, I am sure it has something to do with free will and Einstein telling us it is a illusion we all cling to, or something like that.
Actually it is probably me, one day without consumerism, never happen, money is the new religion.
Gonnagle.
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Why would they have to be required if we had employment laws which forbid this?
Are you really suggesting that shops which open on a Sunday will be staffed by robots, Shaker? If not, there will necessarily have to be staff in attendance to restock shelves, take money, etc. I'd have thought that that was common sense.
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Are you really suggesting that shops which open on a Sunday will be staffed by robots, Shaker?
No. Why are you being such a twat about this? I was about to suggest that it was some sort of pretence, except that having had experience of you I'm not so sure.
If not, there will necessarily have to be staff in attendance to restock shelves, take money, etc. I'd have thought that that was common sense.
Yes, staff - real, live, inhaling, exhaling, eating, converting-ATP-into-glycogen, excreting staff who are quite happy to work Sundays.
I've covered my essential points already - i.e. that the important issues here are about consent to Sunday working which are easily covered by employment law in recent posts which you've either not read yet or, vastly more likely, read but ignored so that you can make some fatuous, arseholish points in order (as the former Matthew Hopkins, now CMG-something pointed out recently) to give you an illusory appearance of intelligence.
That's the trouble with people who play dumb - you can never actually tell if they're playing.
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Are you really suggesting that shops which open on a Sunday will be staffed by robots, Shaker?
No. Why are you being such a twat about this? I was about to suggest that it was some sort of pretence, except that having had experience of you I'm not so sure.
If not, there will necessarily have to be staff in attendance to restock shelves, take money, etc. I'd have thought that that was common sense.
Yes, staff - real, live, inhaling, exhaling, eating, converting-ATP-into-glycogen, excreting staff who are quite happy to work Sundays.
I've covered my essential points already - i.e. that the important issues here are about consent to Sunday working which are easily covered by employment law in recent posts which you've either not read yet or, vastly more likely, read but ignored so that you can make some fatuous, arseholish points in order (as the former Matthew Hopkins, now CMG-something pointed out recently) to give you an illusory appearance of intelligence.
So Shaker....Is the increase in stress related illnesses due to increased working hours or a decline in church attendance?
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Search me - you need an epidemiologist on the case.
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Search me - you need an epidemiologist on the case.
That's funny...You usually have an opinion on everything.
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Search me - you need an epidemiologist on the case.
That's funny...You usually have an opinion on everything.
Yes I do, and typically that opinion rests upon "I need to see the evidence here."
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Search me - you need an epidemiologist on the case.
That's funny...You usually have an opinion on everything.
Yes I do, and typically that opinion rests upon "I need to see the evidence here."
I wonder about that since IMO many of your arguments reduce down to philosophical materialism for which their is none of the kind of evidence you are talking about here.
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Search me - you need an epidemiologist on the case.
That's funny...You usually have an opinion on everything.
Yes I do, and typically that opinion rests upon "I need to see the evidence here."
I wonder about that since IMO many of your arguments reduce down to philosophical materialism for which their is none of the kind of evidence you are talking about here.
Ker-ching! Another 500 in the kitty ;D
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Dearie Me,
Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.
Bad idea.
Gonnagle.
But you know its a good idea really.
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NO NO NO that is not correct.
I want them to have the option to open if they want to and indeed can with the staff.
I do not want to force them to open, like you want to force them to close.
I am all about freedom.
3 x 'I want'. ;) No consideration for the owners/staff who would be required to be present in order for your 'want' to occur.
NO, I do not require them to work.
I want them to have the option to choose for themselves.
Why are you against freedom and choice?
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NO, I do not require them to work.
I want them to have the option to choose for themselves.
Why are you against freedom and choice?
Some people are. They're just like that. We see it time and time and time again - in abortion, in assisted suicide, in same-sex marriage; in Sunday trading. Free choice - letting people do whatever they want to do as long as they don't frighten the horses - is the enemy.
Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists. It's their thing; only one god means only one way - their way. That's why comparatively recent (i.e. incrementally over the last few centuries or so) human history in this specific context has been a history of religionists having pluralism thrust upon them with extreme reluctance, with pushback and opposition and whiny crybaby won't-somebody-think-of-the-children bleating consistently throughout.
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NO, I do not require them to work.
I want them to have the option to choose for themselves.
Why are you against freedom and choice?
Some people are. They're just like that. We see it time and time and time again - in abortion, in assisted suicide, in same-sex marriage; in Sunday trading. Free choice - letting people do whatever they want to do as long as they don't frighten the horses - is the enemy.
Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists. It's their thing; only one god means only one way - their way. That's why human history in this specific context has been a history of religionists having pluralism thrust upon them with extreme reluctance, with pushback and opposition and whiny crybaby won't-somebody-think-of-the-children bleating consistently throughout.
Hang on.....where's me violin AND FRESHLY CUT ONIONS?
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Have you been drinking tonight or something?
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My local supermarket has a much larger range of products at lower prices than any of the nearby independent traders.
I explained this further up the thread. The buying power of Tesco's, SBS, etc means that small traders cannot in some cases get wholesale prices cheaper than the price on the shop floor at Tesco's.
I know why it is the case, I was merely questioning the apparent received wisdom that the loss of these small independent shops is important.
If you want retail dominated by big companies
You have missed that boat. It's already done and dusted.
but as it will,and already is, leading to less competition
You know the supermarket business is absolutely cut throat don't you?
not more, than I think it is a bad thing. And some measure of protection is needed for small businesses.
Why? What does a small food shop offer me as a consumer that I cannot get from the supermarket?
NB there are several small food shops near my house but they are all branded with national supermarket brands.
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Coming from somewhere where ST isn't an issue I'm perplexed that some see this is the end of civilisation as they know it: and yet it is routine in Scotland and it simply isn't an issue outwith places like Lewis, as Jim noted. Having spend the last two Sundays in England I've had to remember the 4pm enforced limitation on large supermarkets, which just seems archaic and restrictive compared to arrangements at home.
As regards the effects on small shopkeepers in E & W I'm struggling to understand the reality of the competition from getting rid of ST restrictions south of the border - if someone who intended to do a 'serious' shopping at a hypermarket missed the Sunday 4pm-ish deadline I don't think they'd start prowling the small traders for all they need: I reckon they might buy the odd item from a corner shop if they really needed it urgently and just return to the large supermarket the following day.
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Because if we don't they will be forced out of business.
But they offer less choice at higher prices than a supermarket. Why must the public be forced to subsidise high priced poor quality services?
Not everyone can drive a car to these big out of town places
So if there is still a demand for these local shops, they won't go out of business.
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Ok. Enjoy your headlong rush into meaningless consumerism. I sincerely hope it brings about the "choice" (scare quotes for you there) that you so cherish.
Yes, that's exactly what happened in Scotland. Oh no wait, it didn't.
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Sunday was a nicer day for the shops being closed.
No it wasn't.
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How strict are the anti-ST faction?
Is it just shops - I mean, pretty obvious shops like Tesco and Morrisons - that they don't want to see operating after 16:00 of a Sunday, or does it extend to, let us say, the power-generating people (I know; I've been round a power station, hard hat and all; I was there, man, I was there) who work in power stations to keep the lights and the tellies and the Sky+HD boxes going no matter what day or what time of day it is, Sundays, Easter Sundays, Christmas Days and all. I'd love to know how consistent they are in their position.
Just asking, like. I really am genuinely interested.
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Dearie Me,
Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.
Bad idea.
Gonnagle.
Have you heard of the Internet? If you can't walk far, you can use it to have goods delivered to your door now. It's quite clever really.
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Dearie Me,
Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.
Bad idea.
Gonnagle.
Have you heard of the Internet? If you can't walk far, you can use it to have goods delivered to your door now. It's quite clever really.
Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.
I bet your car has a colonel bogey Horn.
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How strict are the anti-ST faction?
Is it just shops - I mean, pretty obvious shops like Tesco and Morrisons - that they don't want to see operating after 16:00 of a Sunday, or does it extend to, let us say, the power-generating people (I know; I've been round a power station, hard hat and all; I was there, man, I was there) who work in power stations to keep the lights and the tellies and the Sky+HD boxes going no matter what day or what time of day it is, Sundays, Easter Sundays, Christmas Days and all. I'd love to know how consistent they are in their position.
Just asking, like. I really am genuinely interested.
Firefighters and police officers have families too. We are such fascists to make them work on Sundays apparently. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was compulsory for fire fighters to do the odd Sunday shift. How evil of the Fire Service to make them do that.
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Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.
You would deny the sick and elderly access to food and drink just because you don't like the sound of the odd lorry.
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Firefighters and police officers have families too.
I see immediately a fatal flaw in your argument, which is that fires should only occur and crimes be committed between 08:00 and 18:00 (at the latest) Monday to Saturday. Anything else is just wrongness.
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Dearie Me,
Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.
Bad idea.
Gonnagle.
Have you heard of the Internet? If you can't walk far, you can use it to have goods delivered to your door now. It's quite clever really.
Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.
I bet your car has a colonel bogey Horn.
Do Tesco lorries thunder through our town and villages disturbing the nation's well-earned peace more than any other kind of lorry, Vlad?
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Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.
You would deny the sick and elderly access to food and drink just because you don't like the sound of the odd lorry.
No they could have boys on bicycles delivering it from Local shops.
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Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.
You would deny the sick and elderly access to food and drink just because you don't like the sound of the odd lorry.
No they could have boys on bicycles delivering it from Local shops.
I always wondered what it would be like to live in one of my all-time favourite films, Went the Day Well? Now I know - Vlad lives there.
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Yes that's Tesco lorries thundering through our towns and villages disturbing the nation's well earned peace.
You would deny the sick and elderly access to food and drink just because you don't like the sound of the odd lorry.
No they could have boys on bicycles delivering it from Local shops.
I always wondered what it would be like to live in one of my all-time favourite films, Went the Day Well? Now I know - Vlad lives there.
Alas nobody is allowed to because of progress only those with Long drives.
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Because if we don't they will be forced out of business.
But they offer less choice at higher prices than a supermarket. Why must the public be forced to subsidise high priced poor quality services?
Not everyone can drive a car to these big out of town places
So if there is still a demand for these local shops, they won't go out of business.
Just thought I would point out that in my town (in Lanarkshire) there are three supermarkets open on Sunday 9am-8pm and to my knowledge, none, that's none, of the local 'corner shops' have closed in the eight years I have lived here.
In fact a new one opened up last year and it is doing just fine as far as I can determine.
I use it quite often as it is nearer to my house than the big chains and it has a really big chiller cabinet for beer!
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Dear Shaker,
Post 127, sorry but I have a smile of disbelief on my face right now, see! Problem is we need killjoys, we need folk to say, hang on a minute have you thought this through.
This is a atheist problem, you think you know, problem is we don't know.
My evidence, global warming, climate change, we are raping this planet with no thought for the future.
Not a case of just scaring the horses, it is a case of we think we are smart when in fact we are so dumb.
Taken this planet billions of years of practice to get it right and then we come along and think we can do better.
Dear Jeremyp,
Internet, aye the wee granny with arthritic fingers loves the internet, oh sorry her granddaughter can do it for her, oh sorry again she can't, far to busy working nightshift at Tescos.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Gonnagle,
My last post of the evening ( bye the way you do know you are devilishly good looking ) Tescos the fourth emergency service.
Gonnagle.
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How strict are the anti-ST faction?
Is it just shops - I mean, pretty obvious shops like Tesco and Morrisons - that they don't want to see operating after 16:00 of a Sunday, or does it extend to, let us say, the power-generating people (I know; I've been round a power station, hard hat and all; I was there, man, I was there) who work in power stations to keep the lights and the tellies and the Sky+HD boxes going no matter what day or what time of day it is, Sundays, Easter Sundays, Christmas Days and all. I'd love to know how consistent they are in their position.
Just asking, like. I really am genuinely interested.
Firefighters and police officers have families too. We are such fascists to make them work on Sundays apparently. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was compulsory for fire fighters to do the odd Sunday shift. How evil of the Fire Service to make them do that.
I seem to remember that the need for people like coppers, firefighters, nurses etc who sometimes needed to do a shop on their way home was one of the reasons for the original laws, NO WAY Jose, being relaxed to OK, but only for a couple of hours.
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Dearie Me,
Will Sunday opening affect the small trader, yes of course, who relies on the small trader, non drivers, the aged, the ill.
Bad idea.
Gonnagle.
Do small traders only open on Sunday, then?
Aren't they in competition with large traders on Mon, Tue, Wed, Thur, Fri and Sat? If these days are not profitable and they need the income from Sunday trade to survive, why don;t they just stay shut on the other days and reduce their costs?
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Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists.
Hmmmm.....You know me well enough by now to know my position on the other topics you mentioned, I'd be interested to hear how you think I fit into this little explanation of yours ;)
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How strict are the anti-ST faction?
Is it just shops - I mean, pretty obvious shops like Tesco and Morrisons - that they don't want to see operating after 16:00 of a Sunday, or does it extend to, let us say, the power-generating people (I know; I've been round a power station, hard hat and all; I was there, man, I was there) who work in power stations to keep the lights and the tellies and the Sky+HD boxes going no matter what day or what time of day it is, Sundays, Easter Sundays, Christmas Days and all. I'd love to know how consistent they are in their position.
Just asking, like. I really am genuinely interested.
OK, Shaker, you start your post asking how consistent the anti-Sunday Trading faction is. Since the issue isn't about whether there should be Sunday Trading or not - and in fact the whole Sunday Trading debate in England & Wales has never, in our life-times, been about that anyway, you seem to be trying to set up a straw man. In your second paragraph you give an example that is nothing to do with commodity trading (after all, have you ever tried to contact your electricity provider on a Sunday, other than in an emergency - when you probably won't contact your provider anyway but a distributor), indicating that you are really determined to get this straw man to appear realistic.
As things stand, our modern society is massively reliant on electricity for survival - be that central heating, the use of TVs and other electronic equipment, cooking, light. I'm not sure that anyone is that reliant on shopping in supermarkets on a Sunday.
Jeremy then makes his even more fatuous comment about police and firefighters (not to mention, of course, nurses, doctors, carers, etc.). As far as I am aware, none of those just listed (or those like them) are providing a service that offers commercial transactions.
Jeremy then makes the comment that "But they offer less choice at higher prices than a supermarket. Why must the public be forced to subsidise high priced poor quality services?" I accept that they may be slightly higher priced, but I can usually buy better quality fresh food from an independent butcher or greengrocer than from any supermarket; however, I can also take you to the same area of our village and point out three independent food retailers whose goods are not only better quality than the stuff available in the Tesco Extra, but are no more expensive than that place now charges. When it first opened, its prices were rock-bottom but as soon as it put its chief competitors out of business, it increased the prices by about 8% (according to a local economist who was brought in to review the impact of their first year's trading).
-
Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists. It's their thing; only one god means only one way - their way. That's why comparatively recent (i.e. incrementally over the last few centuries or so) human history in this specific context has been a history of religionists having pluralism thrust upon them with extreme reluctance, with pushback and opposition and whiny crybaby won't-somebody-think-of-the-children bleating consistently throughout.
Of course, the unions, medical experts and other such groups who might have religious opinions but who debate such things on very different grounds should never be thought of as opposing them. Its only the religious who seem to have consciences, Shaker.
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Hope
Why are you against freedom of choice?
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Hope
Why are you against freedom of choice?
Who said I was? After all, as you have said yourself, extending trading hours for supermarkets could be more convenient for you, but who is to say that it is more convenient for everyone? As I said in my precious post, there are plenty of groups with no religious axe to grind who have opposed previous attempts to extend Sunday Trading hours by supermarkets.
If you can provide indisputable evidence that Osborne's suggestion that extending trading hours on a Sunday for large stores and supermarkets will act to improve the economy, I'll happily accept the change. I would point out that the comparative evidence produced by the big companies prior to the 1994 Act hasn't really proven correct. There has been growth in some sectors but not in others; there has been growth in some forms of outlet but not in others. Scotland has always had a different legislative context, so for people to use them as an example is to compare pineapples with grapes.
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Hope
Why are you against freedom of choice?
Who said I was? After all, as you have said yourself, extending trading hours for supermarkets could be more convenient for you, but who is to say that it is more convenient for everyone? As I said in my precious post, there are plenty of groups with no religious axe to grind who have opposed previous attempts to extend Sunday Trading hours by supermarkets.
If you can provide indisputable evidence that Osborne's suggestion that extending trading hours on a Sunday for large stores and supermarkets will act to improve the economy, I'll happily accept the change. I would point out that the comparative evidence produced by the big companies prior to the 1994 Act hasn't really proven correct. There has been growth in some sectors but not in others; there has been growth in some forms of outlet but not in others. Scotland has always had a different legislative context, so for people to use them as an example is to compare pineapples with grapes.
I don't need to provide anything.
I am a n favour of shops etc being allowed to open if they wish to.
That is freedom of choice.
You want to block that freedom so YOU are against freedom of choice.
What other freedoms would you like to remove?
Can they be open Saturday? Should all shops close every day at 4?
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Hope
Why are you against freedom of choice?
Who said I was? After all, as you have said yourself, extending trading hours for supermarkets could be more convenient for you, but who is to say that it is more convenient for everyone? As I said in my precious post, there are plenty of groups with no religious axe to grind who have opposed previous attempts to extend Sunday Trading hours by supermarkets.
If you can provide indisputable evidence that Osborne's suggestion that extending trading hours on a Sunday for large stores and supermarkets will act to improve the economy, I'll happily accept the change. I would point out that the comparative evidence produced by the big companies prior to the 1994 Act hasn't really proven correct. There has been growth in some sectors but not in others; there has been growth in some forms of outlet but not in others. Scotland has always had a different legislative context, so for people to use them as an example is to compare pineapples with grapes.
I don't need to provide anything.
I am a n favour of shops etc being allowed to open if they wish to.
That is freedom of choice.
You want to block that freedom so YOU are against freedom of choice.
What other freedoms would you like to remove?
Can they be open Saturday? Should all shops close every day at 4?
Some shops are allowed to open if they wish, and they do; all are allowed to open. You are just a selfish individual, who wants it all for your convenience, regardless of the opinions of those who actually have to do the job.
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From the outside looking in it seems to me that the issue in E&W isn't simply shopping on Sunday, since small shops and even smaller supermarkets can open for more than 6 trading hours, but for some reason there is a specific restriction on larger supermarkets: what is the justification for that?
The idea, and the one that Hope seems to support, is that there needs to be a clear economic benefit before larger supermarkets in E&W should be allowed to trade freely on Sunday - and my question is why this is at all relevant to removing what looks like an arbitrary restriction: why not remove it simply because the current arrangement is restrictive?
The retail business is very cost-conscious and will close loss-making shops at the drop of hat so the only way that unrestricted Sunday trading would work in E&W, if allowed, would be if the general public made sufficient use of the facility (and it isn't compulsory!).
It may be that we in Scotland have never had the legislative baggage that applies in E&W but in other respects shopping is still just shopping and that I can go to my local Tesco (in Milngavie) at, say, 8.30pm this Sunday evening and do a 'serious' weekly shop but Shaker isn't allowed to does seem ridiculous.
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The idea, and the one that Hope seems to support, is that there needs to be a clear economic benefit before larger supermarkets in E&W should be allowed to trade freely on Sunday - and my question is why this is at all relevant to removing what looks like an arbitrary restriction: why not remove it simply because the current arrangement is restrictive?
Gordon, the reason Osbourne gave for the proposal was that it would boost the economy. That is why I specifically asked for economic observations on the idea in the OP. In other words, does the reason behind the idea actually stack up or not.
OK, I accept - having just re-read the OP for the first time in a while - I could have made this reasoning from Osbourne plainer in my opening paragraph, but I did make it pretty plain in my second paragraph that that was the focus of the thread - something you and Shaker clearly didn't choose to follow in your initial responses.
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I am a n favour of shops etc being allowed to open if they wish to.
That is freedom of choice.
You want to block that freedom so YOU are against freedom of choice.
Which shops aren't allowed to open on a Sunday, BR? Which am I arguing for not being permitted to open?
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I am a n favour of shops etc being allowed to open if they wish to.
That is freedom of choice.
You want to block that freedom so YOU are against freedom of choice.
Which shops aren't allowed to open on a Sunday, BR? Which am I arguing for not being permitted to open?
Are you happy for supermarkets or any shops that want to being open all day Sunday?
If not, why not?
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Are you happy for supermarkets or any shops that want to being open all day Sunday?
If not, why not?
I've answered this question earlier in the thread, BR - keep up ;) But I'll give it again for your benefit. In the context of this thread, I'm happy for this to happen if the reasons given by George Osbourne actually reflect reality and that people aren't forced to work on Sundays against their consciences and wills. Remember that some employers will seek to use existing Monday - Sunday staff rather than bringing new folk on board because that larger workforce costs more overall.
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Are you happy for supermarkets or any shops that want to being open all day Sunday?
If not, why not?
I've answered this question earlier in the thread, BR - keep up ;) But I'll give it again for your benefit. In the context of this thread, I'm happy for this to happen if the reasons given by George Osbourne actually reflect reality and that people aren't forced to work on Sundays against their consciences and wills. Remember that some employers will seek to use existing Monday - Sunday staff rather than bringing new folk on board because that larger workforce costs more overall.
So if you are happy with Sunday being open like any other day, what is the issue?
We agree.
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So if you are happy with Sunday being open like any other day, what is the issue?
We agree.
So, you have evidence that Osbourne's reasoning is correct? If so perhaps you could provide it. This thread is now 7 pages long and you haven't provided it yet. Are you afraid to do so?
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So if you are happy with Sunday being open like any other day, what is the issue?
We agree.
So, you have evidence that Osbourne's reasoning is correct? If so perhaps you could provide it. This thread is now 7 pages long and you haven't provided it yet. Are you afraid to do so?
I do not need to provide anything.
I am happy for shops to stay open on Sunday on the same basis as they do on all other days.
You need to show why Sunday should be treated differently as it is just another day.
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Jeremy then makes the comment that "But they offer less choice at higher prices than a supermarket. Why must the public be forced to subsidise high priced poor quality services?" I accept that they may be slightly higher priced, but I can usually buy better quality fresh food from an independent butcher or greengrocer than from any supermarket; however, I can also take you to the same area of our village and point out three independent food retailers whose goods are not only better quality than the stuff available in the Tesco Extra, but are no more expensive than that place now charges. When it first opened, its prices were rock-bottom but as soon as it put its chief competitors out of business, it increased the prices by about 8% (according to a local economist who was brought in to review the impact of their first year's trading).
But is your independent butcher open on a Sunday. Perhaps they are, but I think that would be rather unusual. Certainly round here we have plenty of independent food specialist shop, but they tend not to open on a Sunday. And I think when you want more specialist provision you may need to accept more restricted opening.
But that isn't really what we are talking about - we are talking about what I would call bread and butter shopping - basic groceries, clothes shopping and general day to day needs. I find it frustrating that if you need to shop on a Sunday (and frankly for many people with busy lives this is the case) then you are forced into the middle hours of the day - so you have to fit your life around their opening hours, not the other way around.
And on smaller independents - actually increasingly they aren't going head to head with the big boys (those days are long gone) - they offer something different, perhaps more specialist, higher quality etc etc. And longer opening for the big boys might actually helot them - by turning Sunday into a more normal shopping day I think quite a few of those independents might being to realise that opening on a Sunday makes financial sense and increases their turnover, profitability and sustainability as footfall increases.
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Remember that some employers will seek to use existing Monday - Sunday staff rather than bringing new folk on board because that larger workforce costs more overall.
But if staff are already contracted to work their hours potentially across 7 days, why would there be any difference if 9 out of their 35 hours per week might sometimes be on a Sunday, rather than the current 6 out of their 35.
Actually I think staff would prefer it - on of the problems currently is that staff have their Sunday disrupted if they are working that day, but aren't able to actually work a full day.
And if shops chose to open longer hours overall they will need additional staff or will need to ask whether existing staff want to work longer hours. And in our current world of zero hours contracts, under-employed people (i.e. people working less hours than they wish) and unemployed people surely that's a good thing.
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The retail business is very cost-conscious and will close loss-making shops at the drop of hat so the only way that unrestricted Sunday trading would work in E&W, if allowed, would be if the general public made sufficient use of the facility (and it isn't compulsory!).
I can't see that they wouldn't.
Certainly round my way the 6 hours my local Morrisons is open on a Sunday are just about the busiest you'll encounter. Car park full, scrums of people. Compared to say 11am on a Tuesday when your likely to encounter no none than half a dozen pensioners and a few mums with pre-school age kids.
And the reason is obvious. Millions of people work, and still by and large that work occupies them Monday to Friday so available shopping time for these people is largely restricted to two days from 7. Restrict one of those days massively in terms of opening hours and it is hardly surprising that it is very busy.
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Of course it should go without saying that the enemies of free choice are typically people in thrall to absolutist, dogmatic, my-way-or-the-highway religious belief systems. Look for opposition to abortion, assisted suicide, same-sex marriage and Sunday trading and more often than not - by a very long way - you'll find religionists and especially monotheists.
Hmmmm.....You know me well enough by now to know my position on the other topics you mentioned, I'd be interested to hear how you think I fit into this little explanation of yours ;)
You don't - that's why I said typically and not something like entirely or exclusively or similar.
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From the outside looking in it seems to me that the issue in E&W isn't simply shopping on Sunday, since small shops and even smaller supermarkets can open for more than 6 trading hours, but for some reason there is a specific restriction on larger supermarkets: what is the justification for that?
It's entirely arbitrary, Gord.
It may be that we in Scotland have never had the legislative baggage that applies in E&W but in other respects shopping is still just shopping and that I can go to my local Tesco (in Milngavie) at, say, 8.30pm this Sunday evening and do a 'serious' weekly shop but Shaker isn't allowed to does seem ridiculous.
I'm probably a very long way from where you are Gordon; to make the comparison even sharper and to highlight how ridiculous the situation really is, think of a Tesco only just over the border - either in Cumbria or Northumberland. It's sheer madness.
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I find it frustrating that if you need to shop on a Sunday (and frankly for many people with busy lives this is the case) then you are forced into the middle hours of the day - so you have to fit your life around their opening hours, not the other way around.
We sometimes have to do our weekly shop on a Sunday; doing it during the 'middle' of the day suits us and many others I know.
And longer opening for the big boys might actually helot them - by turning Sunday into a more normal shopping day I think quite a few of those independents might being to realise that opening on a Sunday makes financial sense and increases their turnover, profitability and sustainability as footfall increases.
It might do, but where they already do so, the evidence seems to be inconclusive in that regard.
That is, at least in part, why I opened the thread - so as to give folk a chance to express that evidence. What your or BR's personal opinion is, is of less interest to me.
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We sometimes have to do our weekly shop on a Sunday; doing it during the 'middle' of the day suits us and many others I know.
So once again this is a case of people being expected to fit their lives around the shop opening times.
The problem with the 10-4 or 11-5 position is that it takes out the middle of the day. So if you want to do something else, e.g. as a family - you can't. If you can get in at 8am (just as you can on any other day) or perhaps at 7pm (just as you can on any other day) you can fit your shopping around your life, not the other way around.
So it might suit you (and therefore change or no change has no effect) but really rather ofter it doesn't suit met and my family. Your attitude seems to be a bit 'I'm all right Jack, don't give a stuff about you'. But I'm also prepared to bet that you, like me, have sometimes been doing a DIY job, or perhaps some bike repair, or maybe working in the garden. Suddenly realised you need something rather vital to complete the job on a Sunday afternoon and discovered to your horror that it is 3:55 and the relevant shop will be forced to close (although they probably don't want to) in five minutes time.
But the larger point is this. If shops want to open as long on a Sunday as they do on other days and there are people happy to work those times (which already happens in all sorts of other places) and there are people who want to shop at those time, why on earth are they prevented from doing so.
So look at my upcoming weekend - and I haven't even thrown in 3 kids parties that the kids will need to be ferried to. Saturday is completely out, as is the whole of Sunday afternoon. And my daughter has a party on Sunday morning from 11. So if she needs new shoes (for example), explain to me when exactly we are going do that? If the shoe shop was open from 9 on Sunday (as they are on every other day) then all if fine. But they aren't - they don't open until 11.
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I am not really bothered about Sunday opening but this whining about not being able to buy some shoes for your daughter because shops are only open 6 hours on a Sunday due to your inability to prioritise or plan would be the definition of a first world problem were it not so laughable.
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I am not really bothered about Sunday opening but this whining about not being able to buy some shoes for your daughter because shops are only open 6 hours on a Sunday due to your inability to prioritise or plan would be the definition of a first world problem were it not so laughable.
Fine - if your life is so bereft of stuff going on that you can pick and choose the time you shop, good for you. Indeed I am rather jelous. But this isn't the case for everyone, and indeed is pretty well par for the course for the classic two working parents with kids family.
I do not have an inability to plan, quite the reverse, but most of the things I am talking about aren't commitments we can change the times of. Do you think we can go back to the parents of a friend and ask that they change the time of their party just for us. Or a scheduled gymnastics class, or a choir rehearsal and concert, or the timing of a Duke of Edinburgh expedition. Nope these are all entirely out of our control in terms of timing.
But on prioritisation - yup I would like to be able to prioritise other stuff over the need to get to the shops, not the other way around. That's the point and I can't see that's unreasonable.
Sure I imagine once the kids are gone life will become much less complicated and we will have much more flexibility for shopping. But that isn't the world for us now, nor for millions of other similar parents.
And I can't see how I am asking for anything unreasonable. Merely for shops to be allowed to open more hours on a Sunday.
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Yep, no one has ever managed to bring up children and buy them shoes because shops are never open long enough on a Sunday! Oh wait they have.
Your whole argument is one long unrealistic w h i i i n e. I suggest you stop posting such nonsense and go and buy the shoes.
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Yep, no one has ever managed to bring up children and buy them shoes because shops are never open long enough on a Sunday! Oh wait they have.
Your whole argument is one long unrealistic w h i i i n e. I suggest you stop posting such nonsense and go and buy the shoes.
Go and buy shoes now - how - my daughter is at school. And I think you'll find that the child needs to be present to buy shoes that fit!
And I am not saying that it is impossible to buy shoes currently (that would be daft) - but that the current restrictions means that you end up having to plan your weekend around when the shops are open, rather than being able to arrange your shopping needs around the rest of life. The restrictions make things harder than they need to be.
Clearly your life is very different, but this is my life and the life of millions of similar people. All I am asking is for an unnecessary restriction to be removed which will reduce the complexity of standard modern family life just a touch. Why is that unreasonable.
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So look at my upcoming weekend - and I haven't even thrown in 3 kids parties that the kids will need to be ferried to. Saturday is completely out, as is the whole of Sunday afternoon. And my daughter has a party on Sunday morning from 11. So if she needs new shoes (for example), explain to me when exactly we are going do that?
This evening?
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So look at my upcoming weekend - and I haven't even thrown in 3 kids parties that the kids will need to be ferried to. Saturday is completely out, as is the whole of Sunday afternoon. And my daughter has a party on Sunday morning from 11. So if she needs new shoes (for example), explain to me when exactly we are going do that?
This evening?
The shoe shops close at 5:30pm and neither me nor my wife will be home from work by then. And my daughter is at after school club until 5:30.
So, nope that doesn't work.
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
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While you are out getting the shoes, see if you can get a sense of humour and perspective at the same time.
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I think you are all missing the point.
Yes you can operate with Sunday opening hours as they are, we do that now.
The question is, why is it unreasonable for shops and employees that want to, to open as long as they want on Sunday?
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
She won't of course. The only point I am making is that the current restrictions on Sunday are regularly a real pain for the millions of people who have lives pretty similar to mine. And they needn't be.
I know other with my less busy lives may be scratching their heads at what I am saying, but trust me the limitations of possible times to get to the shops can be incredible for working parents with kids who have busy lives of things they are doing (and occasionally leisure activities for the parents too).
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I think you are all missing the point.
Yes you can operate with Sunday opening hours as they are, we do that now.
The question is, why is it unreasonable for shops and employees that want to, to open as long as they want on Sunday?
Agree - life can be stressful enough without this unnecessary irritation making it more so.
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While you are out getting the shoes, see if you can get a sense of humour and perspective at the same time.
Are you saying things are only important, if you say so?
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
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While you are out getting the shoes, see if you can get a sense of humour and perspective at the same time.
Sadly won't be able to purchase some perspective and a sense of humour in the near future because the perspective and sense of humour shops aren't open long enough on a Sunday so I won't be able to get there this weekend.
I'll check out whether these items are available from Amazon for next day delivery!
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While you are out getting the shoes, see if you can get a sense of humour and perspective at the same time.
Are you saying things are only important, if you say so?
Get the same for BeRational, Prof, while you are at the shops.
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So look at my upcoming weekend - and I haven't even thrown in 3 kids parties that the kids will need to be ferried to. Saturday is completely out, as is the whole of Sunday afternoon. And my daughter has a party on Sunday morning from 11. So if she needs new shoes (for example), explain to me when exactly we are going do that?
This evening?
The shoe shops close at 5:30pm and neither me nor my wife will be home from work by then. And my daughter is at after school club until 5:30.
So, nope that doesn't work.
All shoe shops everywhere close at 5:30 tonight? Even the one's in shopping centres and retail parks?
You should write to them and complain about how their restricted weekday opening hours are not suitable for your lifestyle. :D :D :D
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
Most of the shops have a 'take a ticket' system for service. Being 10th in line isn't unusual. Not whinging, merely pointing out that Sunday for busy parent is a prime time to try to get shoes (for obvious reasons) and the short opening hours are a problem and clearly there is enough potential custom to easily justify much longer opening hours.
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
How do other working parents manage to furnish their children with shoes?
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What's unrealistic about shops being open the same amount of hours on a Sunday as a Saturday?
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While you are out getting the shoes, see if you can get a sense of humour and perspective at the same time.
Are you saying things are only important, if you say so?
Get the same for BeRational, Prof, while you are at the shops.
I see you are evading now.
Its only important if you say do.
I will have to remember that
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
How do other working parents manage to furnish their children with shoes?
Why do you ask?
In what way is this relevant?
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
Most of the shops have a 'take a ticket' system for service. Being 10th in line isn't unusual. Not whinging, merely pointing out that Sunday for busy parent is a prime time to try to get shoes (for obvious reasons) and the short opening hours are a problem and clearly there is enough potential custom to easily justify much longer opening hours.
If retailers already have such a captive market on Sundays then you're suggesting that they should go to more expense (opening longer incurs more overheads) for no additional revenue.
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
How do other working parents manage to furnish their children with shoes?
Why do you ask?
Perhaps they have a solution to this conundrum that PD has overlooked.
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
How do other working parents manage to furnish their children with shoes?
Why do you ask?
Perhaps they have a solution to this conundrum that PD has overlooked.
There is.
They stay open on Sunday as they do on others days.
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So look at my upcoming weekend - and I haven't even thrown in 3 kids parties that the kids will need to be ferried to. Saturday is completely out, as is the whole of Sunday afternoon. And my daughter has a party on Sunday morning from 11. So if she needs new shoes (for example), explain to me when exactly we are going do that?
This evening?
The shoe shops close at 5:30pm and neither me nor my wife will be home from work by then. And my daughter is at after school club until 5:30.
So, nope that doesn't work.
All shoe shops everywhere close at 5:30 tonight? Even the one's in shopping centres and retail parks?
You should write to them and complain about how their restricted weekday opening hours are not suitable for your lifestyle. :D :D :D
Actually there are very few retailers that provide a proper service for kids and have a decent range of styles and (obviously critically) sizes. None are open late. Even the more bog standard retailers (which often don't really provide a decent range of kids shoes, if at all) most aren't open late enough for an after work trip. But you also have to add in that one or other of the kids (and often the parents) are at gymnastics, gym class, scouts, choir etc etc every early evening with the exception of Friday, so are being ferried to other places.
But again back to the main point - I'd like unnecessary restrictions to be removed so that I (and others) can better plan their need for shopping around their lives, rather than having to plan their lives around the need for shopping.
Why is that a problem to you.
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
How do other working parents manage to furnish their children with shoes?
In exactly the same way as we do - through having to plan our lives around the (often rather stressful) trip to the shoe shop.
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I love the idea of your daughter having to go barefoot, like some 19th century street urchin, because shops have restricted opening on a Sunday though. :D :D :D
at least she won't be alone, as there are millions of others in the same boat
How do other working parents manage to furnish their children with shoes?
Why do you ask?
Perhaps they have a solution to this conundrum that PD has overlooked.
While having taken your ticket and waiting for the ten people in front of you to be served, there is almost always some other parents and their kids you know there too. Also stressed and frustrated and often desperately checking their watch as they need to be somewhere else (probably to enjoy family life) ten minutes ago.
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While you are out getting the shoes, see if you can get a sense of humour and perspective at the same time.
Are you saying things are only important, if you say so?
Get the same for BeRational, Prof, while you are at the shops.
I see you are evading now.
Its only important if you say do.
I will have to remember that
Think it will have to be the extra powered sense of humour for BeRational, Prof, not sure if he needs shoes though
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Sane
So if you ever say someone is evading as you are now, the correct rebuttal is get a sense of humour.
Ok
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
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Sane
So if you ever say someone is evading as you are now, the correct rebuttal is get a sense of humour.
Ok
Stop stamping your tiny feet, you will ruin your shoes and then will struggle to buy new ones.
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Sane
So if you ever say someone is evading as you are now, the correct rebuttal is get a sense of humour.
Ok
Stop stamping your tiny feet, you will ruin your shoes and then will struggle to buy new ones.
Its not me that needs new shoes, nor a sense of humour.
Are you quite well?
In your name how near are you to being sane?
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Sane
So if you ever say someone is evading as you are now, the correct rebuttal is get a sense of humour.
Ok
Stop stamping your tiny feet, you will ruin your shoes and then will struggle to buy new ones.
Its not me that needs new shoes, nor a sense of humour.
Are you quite well?
In your name how near are you to being sane?
If you are sane then as far from it as I can get.
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I am and your are a long way from it.
Perhaps you need help?
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
The answer is clear - allow the shop to open for a full day on a Sunday - trust me, they will do so as there is plenty of custom to support the additional opening hours and staff costs.
Why is the most obvious solution somehow the last thing you seem to want to contemplate - how strange.
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
You seem to have completely ignored my question to you which was:
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
Perhaps you'd like to tell us please, just to be sure that you have a clue, so to speak.
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
You seem to have completely ignored my question to you which was:
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
Perhaps you'd like to tell us please, just to be sure that you have a clue, so to speak.
I think you will find we do not have the correct sense of humour.
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
The answer is clear - allow the shop to open for a full day on a Sunday - trust me, they will do so as there is plenty of custom to support the additional opening hours and staff costs.
Why is the most obvious solution somehow the last thing you seem to want to contemplate - how strange.
I appreciate quite how enormously busy you are but might I suggest that you read posts properly as at no stage have I taken a position on Sunday. If the fabulous shoe retailers you require won't do business late, then that applies to Sunday as well. And why the leap to 9 rather than say 7.
It is not at all clear that your (and the millions of other parents with shoeless children) problem will be solved by the change in law
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
The answer is clear - allow the shop to open for a full day on a Sunday - trust me, they will do so as there is plenty of custom to support the additional opening hours and staff costs.
Why is the most obvious solution somehow the last thing you seem to want to contemplate - how strange.
I appreciate quite how enormously busy you are but might I suggest that you read posts properly as at no stage have I taken a position on Sunday. If the fabulous shoe retailers you require won't do business late, then that applies to Sunday as well. And why the leap to 9 rather than say 7.
It is not at all clear that your (and the millions of other parents with shoeless children) problem will be solved by the change in law
Would you like to answer my question please:
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
You seem to have completely ignored my question to you which was:
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
Perhaps you'd like to tell us please, just to be sure that you have a clue, so to speak.
Just Didn't see it.
Never taken my kids as I don't have any. I have taken nephews and neices. That said I would suggest the question is irrelevant since it is courtiers reply.
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
So you prioritised other activities ahead of ensuring that your child had shoes that fitted them. Is that responsible parenting?
And how did you eventually manage to acquire a new pair of shoes for them? Presumably you didn't go to the shoe shop and walk out again in disgust on the following Sunday.
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
So you prioritised other activities ahead of ensuring that your child had shoes that fitted them. Is that responsible parenting?
And how did you eventually manage to acquire a new pair of shoes for them? Presumably you didn't go to the shoe shop and walk out again in disgust on the following Sunday.
Why do you evade the question?
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
The answer is clear - allow the shop to open for a full day on a Sunday - trust me, they will do so as there is plenty of custom to support the additional opening hours and staff costs.
Why is the most obvious solution somehow the last thing you seem to want to contemplate - how strange.
I appreciate quite how enormously busy you are but might I suggest that you read posts properly as at no stage have I taken a position on Sunday. If the fabulous shoe retailers you require won't do business late, then that applies to Sunday as well. And why the leap to 9 rather than say 7.
Or even six pm, since that is after you finish work and your daughter has finished after school club?
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In exactly the same way as we do - through having to plan our lives around the (often rather stressful) trip to the shoe shop.
Lack of immediate gratification = stressful. :D :D :D
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
You seem to have completely ignored my question to you which was:
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
Perhaps you'd like to tell us please, just to be sure that you have a clue, so to speak.
Just Didn't see it.
Never taken my kids as I don't have any. I have taken nephews and neices. That said I would suggest the question is irrelevant since it is courtiers reply.
No it is completely relevant.
So without having any experience you feel it is reasonable to claim that my frustrations are somehow ridiculous.
Try it and you'll begin to understand the challenges.
And the 'shoe' buying one is perhaps the most acute - partly because the aren't really something that is easy to buy on-line and also because the child actually needs to be there, unlike all sorts of other purchases. Add to that the point that there are rather few retailers that actually cater for kids properly plus the Sunday restrictions and it is a bit of a perfect storm.
Sure we and all other parents find a way around it - but it is a big stress and hugely frustrating. And it needn't as difficult if the shops were able to open a sensible length of time on a Sunday.
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Why do you evade the question?
What question?
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I am and your are a long way from it.
Perhaps you need help?
What, pray tell, are your qualifications in the field of mental health?
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
You seem to have completely ignored my question to you which was:
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
Perhaps you'd like to tell us please, just to be sure that you have a clue, so to speak.
Just Didn't see it.
Never taken my kids as I don't have any. I have taken nephews and neices. That said I would suggest the question is irrelevant since it is courtiers reply.
No it is completely relevant.
So without having any experience you feel it is reasonable to claim that my frustrations are somehow ridiculous.
Try it and you'll begin to understand the challenges.
And the 'shoe' buying one is perhaps the most acute - partly because the aren't really something that is easy to buy on-line and also because the child actually needs to be there, unlike all sorts of other purchases. Add to that the point that there are rather few retailers that actually cater for kids properly plus the Sunday restrictions and it is a bit of a perfect storm.
Sure we and all other parents find a way around it - but it is a big stress and hugely frustrating. And it needn't as difficult if the shops were able to open a sensible length of time on a Sunday.
It is irrelevant to the question of whether specialist shoe retailers will open longer hours if the law changes given what u was talking about.
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Why do you evade the question?
What question?
What is the problem with shops that want to opening as long as they want to on Sunday.
How could you have missed this question?
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I am and your are a long way from it.
Perhaps you need help?
What, pray tell, are your qualifications in the field of mental health?
I am an expert, and you are a nutter.
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
The answer is clear - allow the shop to open for a full day on a Sunday - trust me, they will do so as there is plenty of custom to support the additional opening hours and staff costs.
Why is the most obvious solution somehow the last thing you seem to want to contemplate - how strange.
I appreciate quite how enormously busy you are but might I suggest that you read posts properly as at no stage have I taken a position on Sunday. If the fabulous shoe retailers you require won't do business late, then that applies to Sunday as well. And why the leap to 9 rather than say 7.
Or even six pm, since that is after you finish work and your daughter has finished after school club?
Err - I don't usually get back from work until 7pm, so I'm no use at all even if the shops stayed open until 7.
But you then have to add in other early evening commitments:
Monday - daughter to gymnastics class, wife to gym class
Tuesday - daughter to cubs, son number 1 to scouts, son number 2 to theatre group
Wednesday - sons 1 and 2 to theatre group (through most of year, and we often take two other kids for ease of logistics for them)
Thursday - son 1 and daughter to swimming, son 1 to scouts, dad to choir
And remember the kids need to eat at some point in the proceedings.
And that's before you add in the not unreasonable desire for kids to go to round to their friends after school and for tea once in a while, plus the reciprocal. And concerts, performances etc associated with their clubs.
And we (perhaps fortunately) don't have kids who are big into sports, where parents are often driving all over the county every Saturday and sometimes Sundays too taking kids to matches or training.
And sure, we manage, we sort things and the kids get shoes. It's just harder than it needs to be, and removing the unnecessary restrictions on Sunday hours makes things just a bit easier.
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Why do you evade the question?
What question?
What is the problem with shops that want to opening as long as they want to on Sunday.
How could you have missed this question?
I was commenting on the ridiculous suggestion that having to wait in turn to buy a pair of shoes for children is "stressful".
If you think that I'm off topic then I suggest you go and cry to a mod about how stressful I'm making this thread. :D :D :D
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Why do you evade the question?
What question?
What is the problem with shops that want to opening as long as they want to on Sunday.
How could you have missed this question?
I was commenting on the ridiculous suggestion that having to wait in turn to buy a pair of shoes for children is "stressful".
If you think that I'm off topic then I suggest you go and cry to a mod about how stressful I'm making this thread. :D :D :D
I just notice that you will do anything apart from answer a simple question.
Can you answer the question?
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I am and your are a long way from it.
Perhaps you need help?
What, pray tell, are your qualifications in the field of mental health?
I am an expert, and you are a nutter.
Ah an 'expert'. Which university or institute of further education did you attend to get this 'expertise'. Your use of such a technical term as nutter marks you out as obviously very well schooled.
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
The answer is clear - allow the shop to open for a full day on a Sunday - trust me, they will do so as there is plenty of custom to support the additional opening hours and staff costs.
Why is the most obvious solution somehow the last thing you seem to want to contemplate - how strange.
I appreciate quite how enormously busy you are but might I suggest that you read posts properly as at no stage have I taken a position on Sunday. If the fabulous shoe retailers you require won't do business late, then that applies to Sunday as well. And why the leap to 9 rather than say 7.
Or even six pm, since that is after you finish work and your daughter has finished after school club?
Err - I don't usually get back from work until 7pm, so I'm no use at all even if the shops stayed open until 7.
So who looks after your daughter from the end of after school club at 5:30 until you get home at 7?
Why can't they take them to buy shoes?
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
The answer is clear - allow the shop to open for a full day on a Sunday - trust me, they will do so as there is plenty of custom to support the additional opening hours and staff costs.
Why is the most obvious solution somehow the last thing you seem to want to contemplate - how strange.
I appreciate quite how enormously busy you are but might I suggest that you read posts properly as at no stage have I taken a position on Sunday. If the fabulous shoe retailers you require won't do business late, then that applies to Sunday as well. And why the leap to 9 rather than say 7.
Or even six pm, since that is after you finish work and your daughter has finished after school club?
Err - I don't usually get back from work until 7pm, so I'm no use at all even if the shops stayed open until 7.
So who looks after your daughter from the end of after school club at 5:30 until you get home at 7?
Why can't they take them to buy shoes?
Why can you not answer the question?
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Ah an 'expert'. Which university or institute of further education did you attend to get this 'expertise'. Your use of such a technical term as nutter marks you out as obviously very well schooled.
He has a certificate from the online college of nutterology.
In crayon.
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Ah an 'expert'. Which university or institute of further education did you attend to get this 'expertise'. Your use of such a technical term as nutter marks you out as obviously very well schooled.
He has a certificate from the online college of nutterology.
In crayon.
Can you answer the question?
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
You seem to have completely ignored my question to you which was:
Just out of interest, when was the last time you went into a shoe shop on a Sunday to get your child's feet measured and to buy some new shoes?
Perhaps you'd like to tell us please, just to be sure that you have a clue, so to speak.
Just Didn't see it.
Never taken my kids as I don't have any. I have taken nephews and neices. That said I would suggest the question is irrelevant since it is courtiers reply.
No it is completely relevant.
So without having any experience you feel it is reasonable to claim that my frustrations are somehow ridiculous.
Try it and you'll begin to understand the challenges.
And the 'shoe' buying one is perhaps the most acute - partly because the aren't really something that is easy to buy on-line and also because the child actually needs to be there, unlike all sorts of other purchases. Add to that the point that there are rather few retailers that actually cater for kids properly plus the Sunday restrictions and it is a bit of a perfect storm.
Sure we and all other parents find a way around it - but it is a big stress and hugely frustrating. And it needn't as difficult if the shops were able to open a sensible length of time on a Sunday.
It is irrelevant to the question of whether specialist shoe retailers will open longer hours if the law changes given what u was talking about.
But the issue is that currently they can't not that they choose not to. And that this forces more restricted hours than could be the case and that creates frustrations to parents trying to juggle necessary shopping with the rest of their family's busy lives.
And as you have freely admitted you really have no idea what you are talking about in this regard so quite how you can put yourself over as such an expert on the typical juggling exercises of modern family life is rather beyond me.
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Why do you evade the question?
What question?
What is the problem with shops that want to opening as long as they want to on Sunday.
How could you have missed this question?
I was commenting on the ridiculous suggestion that having to wait in turn to buy a pair of shoes for children is "stressful".
If you think that I'm off topic then I suggest you go and cry to a mod about how stressful I'm making this thread. :D :D :D
I just notice that you will do anything apart from answer a simple question.
Can you answer the question?
You do realise that the question is irrelevant since the lovely Thrud has not taken the position you are attributing to him?
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Why do you evade the question?
What question?
What is the problem with shops that want to opening as long as they want to on Sunday.
How could you have missed this question?
I was commenting on the ridiculous suggestion that having to wait in turn to buy a pair of shoes for children is "stressful".
If you think that I'm off topic then I suggest you go and cry to a mod about how stressful I'm making this thread. :D :D :D
I just notice that you will do anything apart from answer a simple question.
Can you answer the question?
You do realise that the question is irrelevant since the lovely Thrud has not taken the position you are attributing to him?
Yes it is relevant.
Its the whole point of the thread.
What is the problem with shops that want to opening as they wish on Sunday?
Do you have an answer?
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Go waah-waah to the mods.
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So these highly specialized shoe retailers have the ability to open later but do not do so. Sounds to me even with a change in the law baby Prof will still struggle to get new shoes.
Small children tend to go to bed rather early, so I don't think there will be much taking for specialist children's shoe fitting at 9pm, Sane.
The Sunday scrum really is palpable. On several occasions we've walked in, seen the wait and given up because we simply don't have the time. And there is almost always other parents doing the same.
The answer is clear - allow the shop to open for a full day on a Sunday - trust me, they will do so as there is plenty of custom to support the additional opening hours and staff costs.
Why is the most obvious solution somehow the last thing you seem to want to contemplate - how strange.
I appreciate quite how enormously busy you are but might I suggest that you read posts properly as at no stage have I taken a position on Sunday. If the fabulous shoe retailers you require won't do business late, then that applies to Sunday as well. And why the leap to 9 rather than say 7.
Or even six pm, since that is after you finish work and your daughter has finished after school club?
Err - I don't usually get back from work until 7pm, so I'm no use at all even if the shops stayed open until 7.
So who looks after your daughter from the end of after school club at 5:30 until you get home at 7?
Why can't they take them to buy shoes?
My wife does.
So on Monday she needs to get her home (by about 5:45pm) so she can have her tea before being back out again to gym class by 6:30.
And on Tuesday similar before she's off to cubs
And on Wednesday the boys are off to their theatre rehearsal, with all needed to be fed and watered before hand.
Thursday she takes two of the kids straight to swimming lessons, returning with two very hungry kids at about 6:45.
etc
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
Can you answer the question.
No wonder you do not have kids!
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So who looks after your daughter from the end of after school club at 5:30 until you get home at 7?
Why can't they take them to buy shoes?
My wife does.
So on Monday she needs to get her home (by about 5:45pm) so she can have her tea before being back out again to gym class by 6:30.
So who looks after them between when she leaves for gym class (6:15??) and when you get home at 7?
Thursday she takes two of the kids straight to swimming lessons, returning with two very hungry kids at about 6:45.
Cereal bars could bridge that gap.
And what about Fridays? Oh, I forgot! All shoe shops close at 5:30 on Fridays, don't they?
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
Can you answer the question.
No wonder you do not have kids!
The question is irrelevant to the point I was making. Which I made clear in my first post on the subject. Why are you asking people to justify a position they have not taken?
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So who looks after your daughter from the end of after school club at 5:30 until you get home at 7?
Why can't they take them to buy shoes?
My wife does.
So on Monday she needs to get her home (by about 5:45pm) so she can have her tea before being back out again to gym class by 6:30.
So who looks after them between when she leaves for gym class (6:15??) and when you get home at 7?
Thursday she takes two of the kids straight to swimming lessons, returning with two very hungry kids at about 6:45.
Cereal bars could bridge that gap.
And what about Fridays? Oh, I forgot! All shoe shops close at 5:30 on Fridays, don't they?
So you cannot answer the question.
Perhaps you forgot already what the question is?
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
You don't have an idea what you are talking about, because to do so you would need to have experience of the juggling involved in standard family life, which clearly you don't as you don't have kids.
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
Can you answer the question.
No wonder you do not have kids!
The question is irrelevant to the point I was making. Which I made clear in my first post on the subject. Why are you asking people to justify a position they have not taken?
I see you cannot answer the question, but prefer to obfuscate.
Ok.
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Why do you evade the question?
What question?
What is the problem with shops that want to opening as long as they want to on Sunday.
How could you have missed this question?
Increased energy use, noise and other pollution. There is some evidence (from the arrangements around the Olympics a few years ago) that the economy would be boosted at least temporarily, but this itself implies greater energy use and pollution.
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That's right, no one who doesn't have kids could possibly understand the difficulties of managing a busy schedule!
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Why do you evade the question?
What question?
What is the problem with shops that want to opening as long as they want to on Sunday.
How could you have missed this question?
Increased energy use, noise and other pollution. There is some evidence (from the arrangements around the Olympics a few years ago) that the economy would be boosted at least temporarily, but this itself implies greater energy use and pollution.
My 2 local supermarkets are 24 hours Monday to Saturday, Sunday would make no difference.
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So who looks after your daughter from the end of after school club at 5:30 until you get home at 7?
Why can't they take them to buy shoes?
My wife does.
So on Monday she needs to get her home (by about 5:45pm) so she can have her tea before being back out again to gym class by 6:30.
So who looks after them between when she leaves for gym class (6:15??) and when you get home at 7?
Thursday she takes two of the kids straight to swimming lessons, returning with two very hungry kids at about 6:45.
Cereal bars could bridge that gap.
And what about Fridays? Oh, I forgot! All shoe shops close at 5:30 on Fridays, don't they?
Yup that's right - the ones round here that cater for kids do.
But your ability to try to find the specific hour in a week when the shop is open, the child is available as is one of their parents to take them rather proves my point. That the current situation means that you have to arrange the rest of your life around the opening hours of the shops, rather than fitting the needs to dip shopping around the rest of our lives.
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Of course, you could just say to your kids "we can't do that this week because getting you a new pair of shoes takes precedence and I find having to queue up on a Sunday too stressful to countenance".
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That's right, no one who doesn't have kids could possibly understand the difficulties of managing a busy schedule!
Yup that's about right.
I think the complexities of juggling not just you but also the kids commitments really is in a different league.
But actually the point remains. If for any other reasons your available time for necessary shopping was extremely restricted and Sunday about the most likely free time I think you'd also be pretty frustrated if the shops are only open for 6 hours during the middle of the day.
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Mind you their reaction to that may be more stressful to you than Sunday shopping! :D :D :D
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That's right, no one who doesn't have kids could possibly understand the difficulties of managing a busy schedule!
Yup that's about right.
I think the complexities of juggling not just you but also the kids commitments really is in a different league.
:D :D :D
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Of course, you could just say to your kids "we can't do that this week because getting you a new pair of shoes takes precedence and I find having to queue up on a Sunday too stressful to countenance".
Hmm - so in what way does that mean that shopping hours are driving family life rather than shopping fitting around family life.
Or of course you could just open the shop a little longer on a Sunday and perhaps you wouldn't have to make that choice.
And actually I have never left the shop simply because it is stressful to wait - we have left because the wait would mean we were late for some other commitment, e.g. a children's party.
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Perhaps it's only kids shoe shops that need extended Sunday opening?
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
You don't have an idea what you are talking about, because to do so you would need to have experience of the juggling involved in standard family life, which clearly you don't as you don't have kids.
It is plainly obvious that the specialist shoe shops will not stay open any longer than they have to. They will only sell a limited number of shoes, so best to fit that in to as few opening hours as possible. They could be forced to stay open longer in competition - but increase in costs will be made up by shoe price inflation. The extended Sunday hours will only allow you better opportunity to buy crap (but cheaper) shoes from supermarkets.
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And actually I have never left the shop simply because it is stressful to wait - we have left because the wait would mean we were late for some other commitment, e.g. a children's party.
And being on time for a party is far more important than having shoes that fit your kids, right?
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
You don't have an idea what you are talking about, because to do so you would need to have experience of the juggling involved in standard family life, which clearly you don't as you don't have kids.
I know you think that (and we will get onto in a minute) but you stated that I had agreed that I didn't know what I was talking about -that is a clear misrepresentation.
I don't claim to know about bringing up kids but simply stating that I cannot understand the pressure you are under and therefore do not know anything is as I have already pointed out a courtiers reply. Strangely I once was a kid and then there was no Sunday opening. Strangely I know many people with kids including my sisters, and strangely I can help with their kids and talk to them about the pressures. And yes, you are absolutely right it is hard but much of the difficulty is self inflicted because you chose to make your life as busy with activities. I have a friend who is a single parent, with three kids, one of whom is autistic. The kids all do as many activities as he can afford/arrange. He would find your whinging laughable.
Your inability to organise your life without time to buy your kids shoes is your problem and one that as I have pointed out is not guaranteed to be solved by the legislation. Just to underline that specialised shops do not tend to open longer on a Sunday in Scotland than in England.
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Mind you their reaction to that may be more stressful to you than Sunday shopping! :D :D :D
Possibly so.
In fact we have routinely ended up buying new shoes in a little shop in Cardigan, where we have a short holiday every summer. It has become a bit of a standing joke in fact, that we seems to have given as much custom to this shop as any other shoe shop. The point being that we simply have more flexible time in the holidays and we can pop in mid morning on a weekday on the way to the beach (or dodging the rain).
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
You don't have an idea what you are talking about, because to do so you would need to have experience of the juggling involved in standard family life, which clearly you don't as you don't have kids.
It is plainly obvious that the specialist shoe shops will not stay open any longer than they have to. They will only sell a limited number of shoes, so best to fit that in to as few opening hours as possible. They could be forced to stay open longer in competition - but increase in costs will be made up by shoe price inflation. The extended Sunday hours will only allow you better opportunity to buy crap (but cheaper) shoes from supermarkets.
You're right, opening longer will not create a bigger market for childrens shoes.
They're hardly an impulse buy.
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
You don't have an idea what you are talking about, because to do so you would need to have experience of the juggling involved in standard family life, which clearly you don't as you don't have kids.
It is plainly obvious that the specialist shoe shops will not stay open any longer than they have to. They will only sell a limited number of shoes, so best to fit that in to as few opening hours as possible. They could be forced to stay open longer in competition - but increase in costs will be made up by shoe price inflation. The extended Sunday hours will only allow you better opportunity to buy crap (but cheaper) shoes from supermarkets.
For goodness sake.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOE SHOPS!
It is not about how to best use the hours the shops currently stay open on Sunday!
It is about why those shops that wish to, why they should not be allowed to.
We could manage with electricity Monday to Thursday if we had to, but we PREFER it 24/7.
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That's right, no one who doesn't have kids could possibly understand the difficulties of managing a busy schedule!
Yup that's about right.
I think the complexities of juggling not just you but also the kids commitments really is in a different league.
But actually the point remains. If for any other reasons your available time for necessary shopping was extremely restricted and Sunday about the most likely free time I think you'd also be pretty frustrated if the shops are only open for 6 hours during the middle of the day.
Different league to bring a carer for a parent or spouse and working?
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...
Increased energy use, noise and other pollution. There is some evidence (from the arrangements around the Olympics a few years ago) that the economy would be boosted at least temporarily, but this itself implies greater energy use and pollution.
My 2 local supermarkets are 24 hours Monday to Saturday, Sunday would make no difference.
Not much difference maybe, but every little ...
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
You don't have an idea what you are talking about, because to do so you would need to have experience of the juggling involved in standard family life, which clearly you don't as you don't have kids.
It is plainly obvious that the specialist shoe shops will not stay open any longer than they have to. They will only sell a limited number of shoes, so best to fit that in to as few opening hours as possible. They could be forced to stay open longer in competition - but increase in costs will be made up by shoe price inflation. The extended Sunday hours will only allow you better opportunity to buy crap (but cheaper) shoes from supermarkets.
For goodness sake.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOE SHOPS!
It is not about how to best use the hours the shops currently stay open on Sunday!
It is about why those shops that wish to, why they should not be allowed to.
We could manage with electricity Monday to Thursday if we had to, but we PREFER it 24/7.
You were the one who brought up shoes.
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Anyway, we've come up with the solution. Childrens shoe shops can sell childrens shoes until 6pm on Sundays to help PD with his planning issues.
There, everybodys happy now.
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Anyway, we've come up with the solution. Childrens shoe shops can sell childrens shoes until 6pm on Sundays to help PD with his planning issues.
There, everybodys happy now.
Don't we have to force them in case they choose to shut at 4 just to taunt the Prof while he rushes to the party?
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
You don't have an idea what you are talking about, because to do so you would need to have experience of the juggling involved in standard family life, which clearly you don't as you don't have kids.
It is plainly obvious that the specialist shoe shops will not stay open any longer than they have to. They will only sell a limited number of shoes, so best to fit that in to as few opening hours as possible. They could be forced to stay open longer in competition - but increase in costs will be made up by shoe price inflation. The extended Sunday hours will only allow you better opportunity to buy crap (but cheaper) shoes from supermarkets.
For goodness sake.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOE SHOPS!
It is not about how to best use the hours the shops currently stay open on Sunday!
It is about why those shops that wish to, why they should not be allowed to.
We could manage with electricity Monday to Thursday if we had to, but we PREFER it 24/7.
You were the one who brought up shoes.
Incorrect.
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perhaps they could be forced to operate mobile shoe vans that can come to his house and save him the inconvenience of having to go to the shop in the first place?
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You were the one who brought up shoes.
No it wasn't.
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Anyway, we've come up with the solution. Childrens shoe shops can sell childrens shoes until 6pm on Sundays to help PD with his planning issues.
There, everybodys happy now.
Don't we have to force them in case they choose to shut at 4 just to taunt the Prof while he rushes to the party?
Perghaps you and Thrud should only have electricity Monday to Thursday?
You could easily work around it.
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I don't claim to know about bringing up kids but simply stating that I cannot understand the pressure you are under and therefore do not know anything is as I have already pointed out a courtiers reply. Strangely I once was a kid and then there was no Sunday opening. Strangely I know many people with kids including my sisters, and strangely I can help with their kids and talk to them about the pressures.
Second hand experience is no substitute for first hand experience
And yes, you are absolutely right it is hard but much of the difficulty is self inflicted because you chose to make your life as busy with activities.
I make no apologies for wanting to give my kids opportunities to enjoy a whole range of activities. Why should I.
I have a friend who is a single parent, with three kids, one of whom is autistic. The kids all do as many activities as he can afford/arrange. He would find your whinging laughable.
I imagine you friend will understand exactly the points I am making. Sure it will be much harder again for him and I must admit I am in awe of anyone who can manage the manic juggling that comes with family life as a single parent (let alone with an autistic child) - it is challenging enough with 2 adults available.
Your inability to organise your life without time to buy your kids shoes is your problem and one that as I have pointed out is not guaranteed to be solved by the legislation. Just to underline that specialised shops do not tend to open longer on a Sunday in Scotland than in England.
As I pointed out way up thread I am perfectly able to organise my life - indeed it needs to be like a military operation at times. My frustration is feeling I have to prioritise shopping necessities due to unnecessary opening hours restrictions on Sundays.
And you are wrong on your comparison between England and Scotland. As I mentioned earlier my Dad used to live in Scotland as we've actually bought shoes in their branch of the same shop that we buy shoes in locally and in Cardigan (actually that's more of an independent but mainly stocks the same brand). Their Scottish branches are typically open until 6pm on Sundays, indeed some until 7pm. And open earlier in the morning.
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...
We could manage with electricity Monday to Thursday if we had to, but we PREFER it 24/7.
We do, but we have the option as we don't care about destroying the environment so long as even our most superficial desires are satisfied. Most people don't even have the option of electricity 24/7 or water for that matter.
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...
We could manage with electricity Monday to Thursday if we had to, but we PREFER it 24/7.
We do, but we have the option as we don't care about destroying the environment so long as even our most superficial desires are satisfied. Most people don't even have the option of electricity 24/7 or water for that matter.
I know.
What is your point?
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You were the one who brought up shoes.
No it wasn't.
I may be wrong but the first shoes I noticed appeared in 171 from the Prof - were there earlier shoes?
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You were the one who brought up shoes.
No it wasn't.
I may be wrong but the first shoes I noticed appeared in 171 from the Prof - were there earlier shoes?
You claimed that I brought up the topic of shoes.
I did not, not that is matters much AS THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOES!
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It is interesting that Prof D, now so het up about shoes has taken to stating incorrectly that I have agreed that I have no idea what I am talking about here. Obviously the strain of worrying about the shoeless baby Prof has affected him so much that he feels the need to misrepresent me completely.
You don't have an idea what you are talking about, because to do so you would need to have experience of the juggling involved in standard family life, which clearly you don't as you don't have kids.
It is plainly obvious that the specialist shoe shops will not stay open any longer than they have to. They will only sell a limited number of shoes, so best to fit that in to as few opening hours as possible. They could be forced to stay open longer in competition - but increase in costs will be made up by shoe price inflation. The extended Sunday hours will only allow you better opportunity to buy crap (but cheaper) shoes from supermarkets.
For goodness sake.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOE SHOPS!
It is not about how to best use the hours the shops currently stay open on Sunday!
It is about why those shops that wish to, why they should not be allowed to.
We could manage with electricity Monday to Thursday if we had to, but we PREFER it 24/7.
You were the one who brought up shoes.
No that was me.
And I'm beginning to regret it given the levels of attack I seemed to have received on this.
So lets broaden it out again. The Sunday restrictions are unnecessary and whatever the reason there will be people who want to (or need to) shop outside those restricted hours but within the more standard Monday to Saturday hours.
On the basis that:
1. The shop wants to open longer
2. There are staff happy to work during those longer opening hours and
3. There are customers who would prefer to shop (as it is more convenient for them) during those extended hours.
Why on earth would be prevent them from doing so.
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You were the one who brought up shoes.
No it wasn't.
I may be wrong but the first shoes I noticed appeared in 171 from the Prof - were there earlier shoes?
You claimed that I brought up the topic of shoes.
I did not, not that is matters much AS THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOES!
Ah yes, my mistake, I had misread your post about it not being about the shoes as being from Prof D who did bring up the shoes. The point though is that if you want to solve the problem of the shoes it is not clear that the legislation will do this. I know you have your opinion that we are not supposed to discuss the shoes but take it up with the mods, cannot see it as a derail, why do you think it is?
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You were the one who brought up shoes.
No it wasn't.
I may be wrong but the first shoes I noticed appeared in 171 from the Prof - were there earlier shoes?
You claimed that I brought up the topic of shoes.
I did not, not that is matters much AS THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOES!
Ah yes, my mistake, I had misread your post about it not being about the shoes as being from Prof D who did bring up the shoes. The point though is that if you want to solve the problem of the shoes it is not clear that the legislation will do this. I know you have your opinion that we are not supposed to discuss the shoes but take it up with the mods, cannot see it as a derail, why do you think it is?
Please see the latest question and stop talking about shoes.
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Is there a reason as to why we should stop talking about shoes when the 'latest' question is an actual derail of the OP?
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Is there a reason as to why we should stop talking about shoes when the 'latest' question is an actual derail of the OP?
Please quote where the OP makes reference to shoes.
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Is there a reason as to why we should stop talking about shoes when the 'latest' question is an actual derail of the OP?
Please quote where the OP makes reference to shoes.
Didn't say it did. You do like imputing positions to people that they are not taking, don't you.
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Is there a reason as to why we should stop talking about shoes when the 'latest' question is an actual derail of the OP?
Please quote where the OP makes reference to shoes.
Didn't say it did. You do like imputing positions to people that they are not taking, don't you.
So shoes are not the point of the thread but the question posed by the Prof is.
Why do you find this a difficult topic to answer?
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And I'm beginning to regret it given the levels of attack I seemed to have received on this.
Attack?
http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1339953607071_8935534.png
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You were the one who brought up shoes.
No it wasn't.
I may be wrong but the first shoes I noticed appeared in 171 from the Prof - were there earlier shoes?
You claimed that I brought up the topic of shoes.
I did not, not that is matters much AS THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOES!
Ah yes, my mistake, I had misread your post about it not being about the shoes as being from Prof D who did bring up the shoes. The point though is that if you want to solve the problem of the shoes it is not clear that the legislation will do this. I know you have your opinion that we are not supposed to discuss the shoes but take it up with the mods, cannot see it as a derail, why do you think it is?
The only reason I brought up shoes is that they seem the most obvious example where the current situation (from the perspective of a parent) is frustrating.
But the point remains, if a shop wants to open extended hours on Sunday, there are staff happy to work there and it is more convenient to me (to fit around the rest of my life) to shop during those extended hours why should the law prevent me from doing so.
Actually why should I even need to justify why it is more convenient to me. Why do I have to need a reason for wanting to shop during those extended hours.
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You were the one who brought up shoes.
No it wasn't.
I may be wrong but the first shoes I noticed appeared in 171 from the Prof - were there earlier shoes?
You claimed that I brought up the topic of shoes.
I did not, not that is matters much AS THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOES!
Ah yes, my mistake, I had misread your post about it not being about the shoes as being from Prof D who did bring up the shoes. The point though is that if you want to solve the problem of the shoes it is not clear that the legislation will do this. I know you have your opinion that we are not supposed to discuss the shoes but take it up with the mods, cannot see it as a derail, why do you think it is?
The only reason I brought up shoes is that they seem the most obvious example where the current situation (from the perspective of a parent) is frustrating.
But the point remains, if a shop wants to open extended hours on Sunday, there are staff happy to work there and it is more convenient to me (to fit around the rest of my life) to shop during those extended hours why should the law prevent me from doing so.
Actually why should I even need to justify why it is more convenient to me. Why do I have to need a reason for wanting to shop during those extended hours.
Because it's not important if not sane says it's not.
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And I'm beginning to regret it given the levels of attack I seemed to have received on this.
Attack?
http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1339953607071_8935534.png
Problem is you can't buy those on a Sunday either ;)
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Is there a reason as to why we should stop talking about shoes when the 'latest' question is an actual derail of the OP?
Please quote where the OP makes reference to shoes.
Didn't say it did. You do like imputing positions to people that they are not taking, don't you.
So shoes are not the point of the thread but the question posed by the Prof is.
Why do you find this a difficult topic to answer?
What do you mean 'topic to answer'? That appears to make no sense.
As to the thread, the OP is looking at the financial argument to which the Prof' s argument would be irrelevant.
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You were the one who brought up shoes.
No it wasn't.
I may be wrong but the first shoes I noticed appeared in 171 from the Prof - were there earlier shoes?
You claimed that I brought up the topic of shoes.
I did not, not that is matters much AS THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOES!
Ah yes, my mistake, I had misread your post about it not being about the shoes as being from Prof D who did bring up the shoes. The point though is that if you want to solve the problem of the shoes it is not clear that the legislation will do this. I know you have your opinion that we are not supposed to discuss the shoes but take it up with the mods, cannot see it as a derail, why do you think it is?
The only reason I brought up shoes is that they seem the most obvious example where the current situation (from the perspective of a parent) is frustrating.
But the point remains, if a shop wants to open extended hours on Sunday, there are staff happy to work there and it is more convenient to me (to fit around the rest of my life) to shop during those extended hours why should the law prevent me from doing so.
Actually why should I even need to justify why it is more convenient to me. Why do I have to need a reason for wanting to shop during those extended hours.
Because it's not important if not sane says it's not.
Actually I'm struggling to see what business it is of anyone else's as to when I choose to shop. Surely that's entirely up to me and provided there is a shop that wants to open those hours and there are people happy to work those hours then surely that's all there should be to it.
The notion that somehow I have to justify why I don't have much time during a working week etc is bonkers. That's my decision.
All I am saying is that if a shop wants to open, there are people happy to work and I want to shop at that time why should the law prevent me.
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Trying to answer the OP - the change will give a small boost to the economy - at least temporarily, but this will mainly involve transfer of business from smaller shops to supermarkets or malls - this can can be seen as undermining "local" economies to the extent that these still exist (barely).
Overall, unlikely to make any significant difference to anything important.
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Should I be able to get a tube all night to the shoe shops or is the unions just being silly?
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Is there a reason as to why we should stop talking about shoes when the 'latest' question is an actual derail of the OP?
Please quote where the OP makes reference to shoes.
Didn't say it did. You do like imputing positions to people that they are not taking, don't you.
So shoes are not the point of the thread but the question posed by the Prof is.
Why do you find this a difficult topic to answer?
What do you mean 'topic to answer'? That appears to make no sense.
As to the thread, the OP is looking at the financial argument to which the Prof' s argument would be irrelevant.
My argument is that if:
1. A shop wants to open
2. There are staff happy to work and
3. There are people who want to shop at those times
Then the law shouldn't prevent them
And that of course embeds the financial argument as a shop would only open if it makes commercial sense, which will also involve assessment of 2 and 3.
I would add that there are some addition factors to consider, but these are standard planning ones. So we need to consider noise, traffic etc through the night etc. But these are really relevant to the Sunday opening case, because this would only place the same restrictions as other days, not greater restrictions as is currently the case.
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Which misses the point of the OP which asks is there a generalised financial argument that can be used to justify Sunday opening not for specific shops
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Which misses the point of the OP which asks is there a generalised financial argument that can be used to justify Sunday opening not for specific shops
But any 'generalised' argument will simply be the sum of the cumulative effect of individual specific shops taking a decision to open longer and the effect on the economy of this.
So I don't see how you can detach the general from the specific.
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Which misses the point of the OP which asks is there a generalised financial argument that can be used to justify Sunday opening not for specific shops
But any 'generalised' argument will simply be the sum of the cumulative effect of individual specific shops taking a decision to open longer and the effect on the economy of this.
So I don't see how you can detach the general from the specific.
Osborne' s argument is financially a generalized one that business will increase overall. That it might for an individual shop but reducing it for another one would undermine that.
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And I'm beginning to regret it given the levels of attack I seemed to have received on this.
Attack?
http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1339953607071_8935534.png
Problem is you can't buy those on a Sunday either ;)
Yes you can. In person between the hours of 11 and 4 (with a half hour browsing before that) or online at any time.
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Which misses the point of the OP which asks is there a generalised financial argument that can be used to justify Sunday opening not for specific shops
But any 'generalised' argument will simply be the sum of the cumulative effect of individual specific shops taking a decision to open longer and the effect on the economy of this.
So I don't see how you can detach the general from the specific.
Osborne' s argument is financially a generalized one that business will increase overall. That it might for an individual shop but reducing it for another one would undermine that.
But his view will necessary be a cumulative effect of all the individual situations, both positive and negative (if that occurs). I guess they have looked at the effects of the brief suspension of the rules during the summer of 2012 to get some kind of estimate.
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So your position is that you have no opinion on the question in the OP?
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I don't see BeR berating anyone from deviating from the actual OP question:
"Putting any religious concerns to one side, do folk believe that this will boost the economy, or will it simply transfer monies from smaller shops, currently allowed to open all day on a Sunday, to the larger stores - and hence, in time, do more damage to the economies of many local places than boosting them?"
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So your position is that you have no opinion on the question in the OP?
I think the evidence suggests it will. Certainly there have been estimates that in London alone an increase in 2 hours of opening hours would result in the creation of 3000 new jobs and £200m extra income. And those new jobs are important, because people taking up those new jobs will themselves spend (not necessarily on Sunday obviously) and boost the economy through that indirect route.
And I think there may be benefits outside those shops that extend opening. So if more people are shopping on a Sunday associated businesses may benefit, for example cafes, restaurants and pubs, and also more specialist shops that aren't going head to head with the big boys but benefit by the extra footfall which increases their revenue on a Sunday or perhaps makes it economic for them to open on a Sunday too.
Certainly there was a boost in sales during the period when the laws were relaxed in 2012, and that including areas of the country which weren't likely to be seeing a direct Olympics effect.
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And a nightingale sang in Berkeley Square,
Economics! No, is that the main point, no, the point is we are going backwards, when we should be going forward, morally.
Shorter working weeks, shorter hours, more time for family, more time to smell the roses, more time for community, more time to indulge your hobbies, more time to help the less fortunate, more time to make love not war.
Actually why do we work nine to five, seems out dated, why not eight till four or nine till one.
But no, the by word seems to be longer hours, what's wrong with one day when the world stops, for me that is a beautiful thought.
It's the Sunday, it's the Bible bashers day, that's the sticking point, those pesky God botherers trying to pull a fast one, bloody Christians always sticking their oar in. 8)
Gonnagle.
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And a nightingale sang in Berkeley Square,
Economics! No, is that the main point, no, the point is we are going backwards, when we should be going forward, morally.
Shorter working weeks, shorter hours, more time for family, more time to smell the roses, more time for community, more time to indulge your hobbies, more time to help the less fortunate, more time to make love not war.
Actually why do we work nine to five, seems out dated, why not eight till four or nine till one.
But no, the by word seems to be longer hours, what's wrong with one day when the world stops, for me that is a beautiful thought.
It's the Sunday, it's the Bible bashers day, that's the sticking point, those pesky God botherers trying to pull a fast one, bloody Christians always sticking their oar in. 8)
Gonnagle.
Not entirely sure the point you are making.
There is no reason why extending Sunday opening should mean workers are required to work longer (indeed I think that would be against their contract), unless they specifically want to work more, and there a currently plenty of those people.
Anecdote alert, anecdote alert. I have a friend who wanted a part time job and working at the weekends worked well for her. But she got frustrated and left because the limit of 6 hours on a Sunday meant that it wasn't really worth her while - she wanted to get more hours in if she was going to work, given that her Sunday was going to be fundamentally disrupted whether she worked 11-5 (which was all she could) or 9-6 (which she couldn't).
But you are right that the old 9-5 five days a week world is disappearing fast. People want more flexibility than that and increasingly are demanding (and getting) much more 'bespoke' working arrangements that work better for them. I see that as a good thing.
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And a nightingale sang in Berkeley Square,
Economics! No, is that the main point, no, the point is we are going backwards, when we should be going forward, morally.
Shorter working weeks, shorter hours, more time for family, more time to smell the roses, more time for community, more time to indulge your hobbies, more time to help the less fortunate, more time to make love not war.
Actually why do we work nine to five, seems out dated, why not eight till four or nine till one.
But no, the by word seems to be longer hours, what's wrong with one day when the world stops, for me that is a beautiful thought.
It's the Sunday, it's the Bible bashers day, that's the sticking point, those pesky God botherers trying to pull a fast one, bloody Christians always sticking their oar in. 8)
Gonnagle.
I see what you are getting at Mr G. Having a day off while others are working is the equivalent of trying to have a lunch break where everybody else is working. That just becomes a ''working lunch'' and having a day off while it's all going on is the equivalent of a ''working day off''.
You are absolutely right about having to work longer...vis...taking work related e mails at home.
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And a nightingale sang in Berkeley Square,
Economics! No, is that the main point, no, the point is we are going backwards, when we should be going forward, morally.
Shorter working weeks, shorter hours, more time for family, more time to smell the roses, more time for community, more time to indulge your hobbies, more time to help the less fortunate, more time to make love not war.
Actually why do we work nine to five, seems out dated, why not eight till four or nine till one.
But no, the by word seems to be longer hours, what's wrong with one day when the world stops, for me that is a beautiful thought.
It's the Sunday, it's the Bible bashers day, that's the sticking point, those pesky God botherers trying to pull a fast one, bloody Christians always sticking their oar in. 8)
Gonnagle.
I see what you are getting at Mr G. Having a day off while others are working is the equivalent of trying to have a lunch break where everybody else is working. That just becomes a ''working lunch'' and having a day off while it's all going on is the equivalent of a ''working day off''.
You are absolutely right about having to work longer...vis...taking work related e mails at home.
Err, what. So by analogy people who don't need to take holidays during the school holiday feel cheated when they jet off on their holidays during quieter school term times while the rest of the world is working. Hmm nope that's wrong - they are delighted to go at a quieter time for less cost and with less queuing, pressure on sun-beds, restaurants etc.
I think there are plenty of people who really like not to be working while others are. Long ago we moved away from the set 'factory' holiday week, and now we are slowly drifting away from the rigid 9-5 five days a week working pattern and that's driven as much, if not more, by employees as employers.
I do agree with you about the intrusive nature of e-mails 24 hours a day, but that is a completely different matter.
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Dear Prof,
Well you talk about workers contracts, but who calls the tune, in no time those contracts would be worthless, money and profit rule, way of the world, I would love anybody to argue against that fact.
Here in Scotland we have that battle at the moment, Scot rail, train drivers don't need to work Sundays, it is optional, but money will win, what ever the outcome, the train Drivers might get extra money but they will lose the choice, and that is another black mark on society, workers need unions to protect their rights, why, owners only see money, they don't see people.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Prof,
Well you talk about workers contracts, but who calls the tune, in no time those contracts would be worthless, money and profit rule, way of the world, I would love anybody to argue against that fact.
Here in Scotland we have that battle at the moment, Scot rail, train drivers don't need to work Sundays, it is optional, but money will win, what ever the outcome, the train Drivers might get extra money but they will lose the choice, and that is another black mark on society, workers need unions to protect their rights, why, owners only see money, they don't see people.
Gonnagle.
There is a bit of a difference between getting highly trained staff such as train drivers to work on an extended Sunday service and getting shop staff. You can't simply pluck someone off the street and get them to drive a train. Most roles in shops require pretty limited training. I imagine additional hours will be taken up by the army of students out there who will likely be delighted to be able to earn a bit of cash at a time which works around their studies.
Hadn't you heard, at the moment there is a big issue with underemployed people - i.e. those that want to work more hours, but are formed to work part time by their employers. This will reduce that problem a touch.
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Dear Forum Members,
Quick someone dial 911( American Police will get there quicker than our Police, more Tory cut backs ) the good Prof has swallowed the Tory manifesto and ethos.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Forum Members,
Quick someone dial 911( American Police will get there quicker than our Police, more Tory cut backs ) the good Prof has swallowed the Tory manifesto and ethos.
Gonnagle.
No I think you have got it the wrong way around.
I am supporting an approach which is likely to increase jobs. In what way is that supporting a Tory cuts agenda?
And I think you will find that that it wasn't the Tories who were focusing on people on zero hours contracts or stuck in part time contracts when they wanting to work longer hours. I think that was the opposition.
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Dear Prof,
Well you talk about workers contracts, but who calls the tune, in no time those contracts would be worthless, money and profit rule, way of the world, I would love anybody to argue against that fact.
Here in Scotland we have that battle at the moment, Scot rail, train drivers don't need to work Sundays, it is optional, but money will win, what ever the outcome, the train Drivers might get extra money but they will lose the choice, and that is another black mark on society, workers need unions to protect their rights, why, owners only see money, they don't see people.
Gonnagle.
Mr G
my fear is that they will not create sunday jobs for new people but just ''extend'' existing jobs.
We need to preserve or extend small business trading on a sunday .
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my fear is that they will not create sunday jobs for new people but just ''extend'' existing jobs.
But why is this a problem if people are currently working part time and want to work more hours. If people are already working full time then there is the working time directive which would prevent them working more. And if their contract is for a certain number of hours they cannot be forced to work more anyhow.
We need to preserve or extend small business trading on a sunday.
I don't disagree but I don't see why extending opening hours for other shops would affect them in a detrimental manner - as I've suggested elsewhere I think there are plenty of firms that may benefit as there is a broadly increased footfall on a Sunday.
Anyhow I think there are far more serious threats to small businesses than the big boys being able to open for a couple more hours. The most obvious being firstly on-line business and secondly the ability of large firms to create an unfair playing field by exporting their profits and therefore reducing their corporation tax liabilities, sometimes effectively to zero which gives an unfair competitive advantage in my view.
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Dear Prof,
Army of students, yes I would imagine that is Tory thinking to.
Which leads on to another Tory lie, helping the worker, yes part time jobs help the workers.
Tory party, anti Christian anti British, even if the Tory party turn round the economy they will still have lost, or rather this country will have lost.
Gonnagle.
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I accept that they may be slightly higher priced, but I can usually buy better quality fresh food from an independent butcher or greengrocer than from any supermarket;
The variety of food on offer is part of the shopping experience.
however, I can also take you to the same area of our village and point out three independent food retailers whose goods are not only better quality than the stuff available in the Tesco Extra, but are no more expensive than that place now charges. When it first opened, its prices were rock-bottom but as soon as it put its chief competitors out of business, it increased the prices by about 8% (according to a local economist who was brought in to review the impact of their first year's trading).
So these three shops that offer better quality produce than Tesco are still trading? Doesn't that give the lie to your fear that the supermarkets will put local shops out of business?
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We agree.
So, you have evidence that Osbourne's reasoning is correct?[/quote]
Osbourne's reasoning doesn't have to be correct. Only Be Rational's reasoning has to be correct.
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I accept that they may be slightly higher priced, but I can usually buy better quality fresh food from an independent butcher or greengrocer than from any supermarket;
The variety of food on offer is part of the shopping experience.
however, I can also take you to the same area of our village and point out three independent food retailers whose goods are not only better quality than the stuff available in the Tesco Extra, but are no more expensive than that place now charges. When it first opened, its prices were rock-bottom but as soon as it put its chief competitors out of business, it increased the prices by about 8% (according to a local economist who was brought in to review the impact of their first year's trading).
So these three shops that offer better quality produce than Tesco are still trading? Doesn't that give the lie to your fear that the supermarkets will put local shops out of business?
Actually I think that most of the shops that were going head to head with the supermarkets went out of business years ago. Those that have survived offer something different, whether that be different choice, better quality, better and more personal service, more ethical approach (e.g. locally sources, organic etc). I'm not sure why the supermarkets being open for a few extra hours on Sunday will affect them because they will still retain their distinctiveness which why they are successful int eh first place.
But I think there may be some shops that will positive benefit. So for example we have a local record shop - it is on on Sundays but the general footfall in town is quite limited due to the restricted opening of the big boys. Were their opening hours to be more like a Saturday I think there would be more people around, spending longer in town and just maybe popping into the record shop to buy some vinyl. And of course they aren't going head to head with anyone else on the hughstreet, because major chain record shops vanished years ago.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Part of the shopping experience, fuck me!! Here's another, Mum can I get that bloody useless plastic toy made in China.
And one more for the people in the cheap seats, Mum can I get, shut up its a food bank.
Jeremyp, I do love you, honest. :-*
Gonnagle.
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On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average. So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?
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On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average. So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?
I think that you have answered your own question: open the supermarkets on Sundays and close the small shops.
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On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average. So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?
I think that you have answered your own question: open the supermarkets on Sundays and close the small shops.
or not, as the case may be.
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Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.
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In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily. People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages. For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really.
I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations. So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them. I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.
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Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.
But the law currently defines 'small' simply be floor area, not by whether the shop is an independent. And I think when people are talking about protecting small shops they are talking about independents.
So round my way the local 'big' supermarket is a Morrisons. If it opened longer on Sundays the most obvious shops affected would be a Tescos extra just down the road and a small Sainsbury in a local garage. Are you concerned about perhaps moving some custom from Tesco or Sainsbury to Morrisons. Nope I doubt it - that isn't what people are thinking about when considering the small shops.
And there are small independents (or small chains) in the area, but they have already differentiated themselves from Morrisons as they already need to compete 6 days a week 8 til 8. The survive already because they offer something different, rather than offering the same but longer (that's non-sense). So I doubt they'd be particularly affected nor worried.
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In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily. People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages. For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really.
I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations. So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them. I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.
That's right - they are often called convenience stores for a reason.
I can get my paper in the post-office or the Morrisons over the road. When I buy a paper, usually this is the only thing I buy and it takes 30 seconds in the post-office (on my way to the station). It would take five minutes in Morrisons. That's why I get it in the post-office even through both are open at the time I purchase my paper.
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Post office? Eh? What the hell is that? Does it involve a man sitting on a coach blowing a long horn and encouraging the horses to speed up?
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Same here, Wiggs. I remember a huge campaign here for a superstore (later rejected) by parents who couldn't be arsed to drive another ten minutes to buy cheap school uniform. The local shops had a gap to fill - even just socks and underwear - but didn't.
My nearest shop is three miles away and I can get there by public transport, but only on Friday. Hardly 'convenient'. But the pub has unused space it could run a shop from, but the owners don't want the hassle.
I suppose I'll be able to buy a tin of paint an hour earlier but otherwise this isn't going to have a massive impact on how I shop.
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Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.
Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday, but then you are an Anti-theist.
Secondly I was just about to ask you whether you were pro No national weekly holiday
JUST BECAUSE IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO STICK ONE ON THE RELIGIOUS?
Supermarkets are major operations. They require national distribution chains.
They demand highway space to draw people to shop in them.
To have society without a national weekly holiday we believe means a lack of personal and social ''recovery'' from the rigours of work. Not to have this we believe means increased stress and wear on personnel, machinery, energy resources and infrastructure. So there is plenty of justification. You in your infinite lack of wisdom have chosen to SKIM over it.
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Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday, but then you are an Anti-theist.
Correct.
Secondly I was just about to ask you whether you were pro No national weekly holiday
JUST BECAUSE IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO STICK ONE ON THE RELIGIOUS?
I am against enforced 'holidays' and dictating how people can spend their time, if that's what you mean. Especially when dictated by a minority of the population.
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Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday, but then you are an Anti-theist.
Correct.
Secondly I was just about to ask you whether you were pro No national weekly holiday
JUST BECAUSE IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO STICK ONE ON THE RELIGIOUS?
I am against enforced 'holidays' and dictating how people can spend their time, if that's what you mean. Especially when dictated by a minority of the population.
Yes, but you are pro the law, particularly when it ensures compliance from wayward religious.
To get your antitheistic, anti keep sunday special, anti, well, personnel, juices going.....not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on sundays........or to be fair have a referendum, but it would be more convenient to have sunday for national renewal.
You are a skimmer Shakes and a monomaniacal antitheist and I can't take your temporary conversion to unbridled capitalism, just because it sticks one on the theists, very seriously
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Dear Jeremyp,
Part of the shopping experience, fuck me!! Here's another, Mum can I get that bloody useless plastic toy made in China.
And one more for the people in the cheap seats, Mum can I get, shut up its a food bank.
Jeremyp, I do love you, honest. :-*
Gonnagle.
I know you like throwing your straw men into the conversation, but please try to keep it relevant.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Part of the shopping experience, fuck me!! Here's another, Mum can I get that bloody useless plastic toy made in China.
And one more for the people in the cheap seats, Mum can I get, shut up its a food bank.
Jeremyp, I do love you, honest. :-*
Gonnagle.
I know you like throwing your straw men into the conversation, but please try to keep it relevant.
Chucking pointless response from you, Jeremy.
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On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average. So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?
What about them?
As PD says, small shops that offer something different to the supermarkets will still be OK. Perhaps they might even benefit. Inferior but more expensive versions of the supermarkets will be in trouble. But so what?
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Yes, but you are pro the law, particularly when it ensures compliance from wayward religious.
Yup. Georgie Boy is planning the change the law. Problem?
To get your antitheistic, anti keep sunday special, anti, well, personnel, juices going.....not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on sundays........or to be fair have a referendum, but it would be more convenient to have sunday for national renewal.
Good luck with that - you'll need it.
You are a skimmer Shakes and a monomaniacal antitheist and I can't take your temporary conversion to unbridled capitalism, just because it sticks one on the theists, very seriously
I'll survive.
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Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from? Medical personnel don't always get one. Rail workers, airline crew and ground staff, cab drivers, police and firefighters work weekends. Farmers, call centre workers, footballers and ground staff (including waiting and bar staff), rugby, cricket, horse racing all happen on a Sunday, pub staff, restaurant staff, chefs, all work. AA and RAC guys, estate agents, cratfspeople work weekends. And that's without those finishing off work at home before going back to the office or school on Monday.
Why are supermarket staff different?
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On BBC News today they discussed the opening Sunday possibilities, and someone pointed out that during the2012 Olympics, when shops were allowed to open as usual on Sundays, supermarket takings went up by 2%, on average, but small shop takings went down by 4% on average. So, what about the welfare of the small shops, and their workers, rather than just the selfish, "I want to be able to shop when I want," merchants?
What about them?
As PD says, small shops that offer something different to the supermarkets will still be OK. Perhaps they might even benefit. Inferior but more expensive versions of the supermarkets will be in trouble. But so what?
How chucking naïve can you be. The supermarkets will find out what it is, sell it as a loss leader and put the small guys out of business.
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You are a skimmer Shakes and a monomaniacal antitheist and I can't take your temporary conversion to unbridled capitalism, just because it sticks one on the theists, very seriously
I'll survive.
Who cares?
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In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily. People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages. For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really.
I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations. So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them. I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.
I didnt know you lived in Norlfok as well, wiggles - one of my favourite parts of the realm. Lucky you.
Boring as it may be, my experience is the same as yours and that of Rhiannon. In my corner of Leicestershire I just so happen to be unusually well-placed for shopping. There's a large retail park about three miles away, the biggest stores of which are Asda, Sainsbury and M & S - all gigantic. There's a similarly huge Tesco about three miles in another direction and likewise for Morrison in another. In my village the two largest stores are Waitrose and Aldi, pretty well facing each other across the main road, about a mile away so technically walkable but not if you're walking there, doing a full weekly shop and walking back to the edge of the village where I live. But there are sundry smaller convenience stores - which are within walking distance - for the little bits and pieces. All have existed for years, all do a roaring trade; in other words everybody shows every sign of co-existing happily and profitably. Which is exactly as it should be, as far as I'm concerned.
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How chucking naïve can you be. The supermarkets will find out what it is, sell it as a loss leader and put the small guys out of business.
They would already be doing it, if they wanted to and I'm not saying they don't do it. But the competitors to the supermarkets are the other supermarkets. I doubt if they care about the local farm shop.
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Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from? Medical personnel don't always get one. Rail workers, airline crew and ground staff, cab drivers, police and firefighters work weekends. Farmers, call centre workers, footballers and ground staff (including waiting and bar staff), rugby, cricket, horse racing all happen on a Sunday, pub staff, restaurant staff, chefs, all work. AA and RAC guys, estate agents, cratfspeople work weekends. And that's without those finishing off work at home before going back to the office or school on Monday.
Why are supermarket staff different?
No but the ''nation'' gets a weekly holiday.
Just like the ''nation'' deserves a pay rise.
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Same here, Wiggs. I remember a huge campaign here for a superstore (later rejected) by parents who couldn't be arsed to drive another ten minutes to buy cheap school uniform. The local shops had a gap to fill - even just socks and underwear - but didn't.
My nearest shop is three miles away and I can get there by public transport, but only on Friday. Hardly 'convenient'. But the pub has unused space it could run a shop from, but the owners don't want the hassle.
I suppose I'll be able to buy a tin of paint an hour earlier but otherwise this isn't going to have a massive impact on how I shop.
Do you ever go through Chatteris? There's a ghost supermarket there, built by Tesco, but abandoned, when their balance sheet went a whiter shade of puce. They built a new road for access, a new roundabout, and even diverted the local river.
I think the closing of small shops is a problem, as you end up with a village with no facilities at all, but it's hard to believe that Sunday opening will affect it. There are many other factors.
Actually, I think farm shops have increased a lot near me. Everybody is getting in on the act.
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In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily. People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages. For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really.
I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations. So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them. I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.
I didnt know you lived in Norlfok as well, wiggles - one of my favourite parts of the realm. Lucky you.
Boring as it may be, my experience is the same as yours and that of Rhiannon. In my corner of Leicestershire I just so happen to be unusually well-placed for shopping. There's a large retail park about three miles away, the biggest stores of which are Asda, Sainsbury and M & S - all gigantic. There's a similarly huge Tesco about three miles in another direction and likewise for Morrison in another. In my village the two largest stores are Waitrose and Aldi, pretty well facing each other across the main road, about a mile away so technically walkable but not if you're walking there, doing a full weekly shop and walking back to the edge of the village where I live. But there are sundry smaller convenience stores - which are within walking distance - for the little bits and pieces. All have existed for years, all do a roaring trade; in other words everybody shows every sign of co-existing happily and profitably. Which is exactly as it should be, as far as I'm concerned.
I have to drive everywhere though - our village shop died because it was crap, frankly. There's an excellent range of small shops in the neighbouring villages though - various butchers, bakers, and well-run convenience stores. They know their market and go for a mix of budget and high end produce and it works. And they do diversify - I've yet to work out why the pet shop-ironmongers also sells DVDs but it does well out of them.
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Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?
From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not. Because it's good for you, and they know best.
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Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday, but then you are an Anti-theist.
Which you seem to think must be on a Sunday - hmm wonder why that may be.
But just to check that you are being consistent in your demand for a weekly national holiday on a Sunday I trust you will ensure that it applies to all non essential/emergency services so that no-one providing those services works on a Sunday.
So for example there are some employees for whom Sunday is usually their busiest working day - namely vicars and priests - I trust you also will require them to have a day off on Sunday too. So no church services on a Sunday either as that requires people to work on Sunday.
Or are you just being a tad hypocritical.
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Same here, Wiggs. I remember a huge campaign here for a superstore (later rejected) by parents who couldn't be arsed to drive another ten minutes to buy cheap school uniform. The local shops had a gap to fill - even just socks and underwear - but didn't.
My nearest shop is three miles away and I can get there by public transport, but only on Friday. Hardly 'convenient'. But the pub has unused space it could run a shop from, but the owners don't want the hassle.
I suppose I'll be able to buy a tin of paint an hour earlier but otherwise this isn't going to have a massive impact on how I shop.
Do you ever go through Chatteris? There's a ghost supermarket there, built by Tesco, but abandoned, when their balance sheet went a whiter shade of puce. They built a new road for access, a new roundabout, and even diverted the local river.
I think the closing of small shops is a problem, as you end up with a village with no facilities at all, but it's hard to believe that Sunday opening will affect it. There are many other factors.
Actually, I think farm shops have increased a lot near me. Everybody is getting in on the act.
No, not near Chatteris. Doesn't surprise me though. No doubt George's development reforms will mean it gets houses instead.
The small shops I've known close have been too small to have decent stock and hence charge too much. But I think the cuts to public transport have a huge effect. The convenience shops work in the larger villages and those that are easy to reach. In a village like mine a shop has to be a 'destination' to work- a speciality of some kind.
Agree about farm shops, loads of them here also usually with a cafe attached and a few chicken and goats to gawp at.
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Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?
From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not. Because it's good for you, and they know best.
But the reality of that has been dead in the water for decades, surely?
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Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?
From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not. Because it's good for you, and they know best.
But the reality of that has been dead in the water for decades, surely?
Vlad appears not to have caught up.
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Same here, Wiggs. I remember a huge campaign here for a superstore (later rejected) by parents who couldn't be arsed to drive another ten minutes to buy cheap school uniform. The local shops had a gap to fill - even just socks and underwear - but didn't.
My nearest shop is three miles away and I can get there by public transport, but only on Friday. Hardly 'convenient'. But the pub has unused space it could run a shop from, but the owners don't want the hassle.
I suppose I'll be able to buy a tin of paint an hour earlier but otherwise this isn't going to have a massive impact on how I shop.
Do you ever go through Chatteris? There's a ghost supermarket there, built by Tesco, but abandoned, when their balance sheet went a whiter shade of puce. They built a new road for access, a new roundabout, and even diverted the local river.
I think the closing of small shops is a problem, as you end up with a village with no facilities at all, but it's hard to believe that Sunday opening will affect it. There are many other factors.
Actually, I think farm shops have increased a lot near me. Everybody is getting in on the act.
No, not near Chatteris. Doesn't surprise me though. No doubt George's development reforms will mean it gets houses instead.
The small shops I've known close have been too small to have decent stock and hence charge too much. But I think the cuts to public transport have a huge effect. The convenience shops work in the larger villages and those that are easy to reach. In a village like mine a shop has to be a 'destination' to work- a speciality of some kind.
Agree about farm shops, loads of them here also usually with a cafe attached and a few chicken and goats to gawp at.
Agree on all that.
The effect of Sunday opening worked its way through the system years ago. The effect of opening a little longer won't be great. There are far more pressing reasons why small independent shops are struggling.
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Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?
From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not.
Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.
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Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.
So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?
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Where does this idea of a 'national weekly holiday' come from?
From people who think that you should have a day of rest - especially a Sunday, for some reason - and do nothing whether you want to do nothing or not. Because it's good for you, and they know best.
But the reality of that has been dead in the water for decades, surely?
Vlad appears not to have caught up.
Nobody is saying ''Do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.
Regards reality, Change does not invariably mean progress, and progress does not invariably mean better....Chuck.
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Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.
So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?
Stop bullshitting.
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Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.
So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?
Stop bullshitting.
Stop evading the simple question I asked you.
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Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.
So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?
Stop bullshitting.
Stop evading the simple question I asked you.
You frame your question as a response to something I haven't suggested. Stop twisting things.
My position is clear. If you didn't make a virtue of skimming theists posts you would know what it is. If you know my position you are deliberately shaping questions around a misrepresention and I shan't play this sleezy little game no matter how moist it makes your audience.
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You frame your question as a response to something I haven't suggested.
What you "suggested" in # 320 was "Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday," by which I assume you don't mean a weekly holiday but one day off per week. People are not arguing against this - people are arguing that there's no reason why it must be a Sunday.
My position is clear.
No it isn't. You haven't, for example, explained why you think people should have an enforced day off from shopping whether they want to or not (most don't want to) because you say so.
If you didn't make a virtue of skimming theists posts you would know what it is. If you know my position
I don't - that's exactly why I'm asking you to explicate it.
you are deliberately shaping questions around a misrepresention and I shan't play this sleezy little game no matter how moist it makes your audience.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin ...
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You frame your question as a response to something I haven't suggested.
What you "suggested" in # 320 was "Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday," by which I assume you don't mean a weekly holiday but one day off per week. People are not arguing against this - people are arguing that there's no reason why it must be a Sunday.
My position is clear.
No it isn't. You haven't, for example, explained why you think people should have an enforced day off from shopping whether they want to or not (most don't want to) because you say so.
If you didn't make a virtue of skimming theists posts you would know what it is. If you know my position
I don't - that's exactly why I'm asking you to explicate it.
you are deliberately shaping questions around a misrepresention and I shan't play this sleezy little game no matter how moist it makes your audience.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin ...
No if you had read the posts. I am pro small sunday business. What I'm against is the 24/7 domination of huge concerns and pro a little weekly change of pace.
The hyperbolic nonsense that anybody who is currently posting here wants everything become to become like an orthodox jewish Sabbath is yours (although that culture has seen off a few twenty four seven civilisations in it's time)
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Nobody is saying ''do nothing''. Stop bullshitting.
So what exactly is it that you want people to do on their compulsory national holiday? You think they can't shop, or go to a, say, National Trust property or do anything which involves commerce, so what do you think they should be doing because you say so?
Stop bullshitting.
Stop evading the simple question I asked you.
You are just pandering to ''ADHD Nation''.
As if the extra consumerism will make people fitter rather than fatter.
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No if you had read the posts. I am pro small sunday business.
No argument from anybody else here about that, I'm sure.
What I'm against is the 24/7 domination of huge concerns and pro a little weekly change of pace.
What you seem to be saying is that you want everybody else to adopt your pace one day a week because you think they ought to, not because they want to.
The hyperbolic nonsense that anybody who is currently posting here wants everything become to become like an orthodox jewish Sabbath is yours (although that culture has seen off a few twenty four seven civilisations in it's time)
Such as?
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You frame your question as a response to something I haven't suggested.
What you "suggested" in # 320 was "Yes I am anti not having a national weekly holiday," by which I assume you don't mean a weekly holiday but one day off per week. People are not arguing against this - people are arguing that there's no reason why it must be a Sunday.
Yes but why not a sunday?
Surely having anyday other than sunday would MERELY BE PANDERING TO THOSE WHO WANT TO STICK ONE ON THE THEISTS......and so Shaker...your motives are exposed.
Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
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No if you had read the posts. I am pro small sunday business.
No argument from anybody else here about that, I'm sure.
What I'm against is the 24/7 domination of huge concerns and pro a little weekly change of pace.
What you seem to be saying is that you want everybody else to adopt your pace one day a week because you think they ought to, not because they want to.
The hyperbolic nonsense that anybody who is currently posting here wants everything become to become like an orthodox jewish Sabbath is yours (although that culture has seen off a few twenty four seven civilisations in it's time)
Such as?
Well Judaism was still going after the disappearance of the non Christian roman civilisation or some of the effective city states of the eastern Mediterranean.
where are those cultures now?
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Yes but why not a sunday?
Why not a Tuesday?
Surely having anyday other than sunday would MERELY BE PANDERING TO THOSE WHO WANT TO STICK ONE ON THE THEISTS......and so Shaker...your motives are exposed.
You seem to have some sort of problem with your keyboard.
Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
Because there's no case for it being a Sunday - it could be any day.
But of course, what you're forgetting is that while it may still be 1952 where you are, and Sunday afternoons are always sunny and populated by pipe-smoking men in rolled-up shirt sleeves clipping the front hedge with garden shears just after washing the Morris Minor, the rest of society has moved on rather a lot and the idea of a day off for everybody at the same time is no longer practical or practicable.
Actually it never was, if you think for a moment about electricity etc. and where it comes from; hospitals and emergency services likewise. The point is that it's even more absurdly anachronistic now. People's working and domestic lives have changed beyond all recognition - many people here have pointed this out; probably the best and clearest posts so far on this theme are the many by Professor Davey - so your concept of a Sunday of "national renewal" (whatever the hell that is) is decades out of date, belonging to the age of three channels of crap on the telly usually consisting of Harry Secombe standing on a hillside looking earnest and warbling away about his old rugged hill far away - turn over to BBC 1 then - oh shit, it's Thora Hird sitting next to some flowers - oh well, at least Love Thy Neighbour is on later.
Unless you're rather old and/or fearful of change 2015 people live 2015 lives, and that includes vastly more flexibility and choice (not just in shopping) than you want people to have. Well, tough.
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No if you had read the posts. I am pro small sunday business.
No argument from anybody else here about that, I'm sure.
What I'm against is the 24/7 domination of huge concerns and pro a little weekly change of pace.
What you seem to be saying is that you want everybody else to adopt your pace one day a week because you think they ought to, not because they want to.
I'm not against individuals going at the pace they want....they would, after all be on their holiday.
Why are you so pro big concerns dictating everybody's pace 24/7
Why are you hung up on the false notion that I want to dictate everybodies pace and big concerns somehow don't want to straight jacket peoples freedom to be themselves rather than 24/7 consumers?
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Yes but why not a sunday?
Why not a Tuesday?
Yes but why a Tuesday?
Sunday, because it follows Saturday and that constitutes a weekend. A slight tweek and sunday can be made more like a day of national renewal and infrastructure rest and maintenance.
Sunday because other societies have their day on sunday.
Why Tuesday then?...there can be but one reason.....It's not sunday. Sorry to piss on your bonfire.
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I'm not against individuals going at the pace they want....they would, after all be on their holiday.
Why are you so pro big concerns dictating everybody's pace 24/7
"Big concerns" don't. Contrary to the beliefs of some, the larger stores don't have tractor beams as on the Death Star which suck in anybody who gets within a thirty-foot radius.
People shop if they want to and don't if they don't want to. It's never been anything else; the only difference is that the change of law in 1994 and the proposed devolution to local authorities as proposed by Osborne in this week's budget offers people more time in which to shop if they want to. That's a good thing.
Why are you hung up on the false notion that I want to dictate everybodies pace
It's not a false notion. Indeed, you've explicitly stated as much, in your statement that not only should the law not be changed but that the clock should be rolled back. At which point would you like the clock to be stopped to suit you?
and big concerns somehow don't want to straight jacket peoples freedom to be themselves rather than 24/7 consumers?
This sets up a false equivalence which states that people aren't "free to be themselves" when they're shopping. This is utter wibble. Some people positively like shopping for its own sake whereas some others, like Prof. D., treat it as a boring but necessary and inescapable chore. Either way, nobody does it with a gun to their head. These days you can, if you want to, do it very very easily from your favourite couch, on your laptop and a mug of tea next to you, and have it all brought to your front doorstep.
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Yes but why not a sunday?
Why not a Tuesday?
Surely having anyday other than sunday would MERELY BE PANDERING TO THOSE WHO WANT TO STICK ONE ON THE THEISTS......and so Shaker...your motives are exposed.
You seem to have some sort of problem with your keyboard.
Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
Because there's no case for it being a Sunday - it could be any day.
But of course, what you're forgetting is that while it may still be 1952 where you are, and Sunday afternoons are always sunny and populated by pipe-smoking men in rolled-up shirt sleeves clipping the front hedge with garden shears just after washing the Morris Minor, the rest of society has moved on rather a lot and the idea of a day off for everybody at the same time is no longer practical or practicable.
Actually it never was, if you think for a moment about electricity etc. and where it comes from; hospitals and emergency services likewise. The point is that it's even more absurdly anachronistic now. People's working and domestic lives have changed beyond all recognition - many people here have pointed this out; probably the best and clearest posts so far on this theme are the many by Professor Davey - so your concept of a Sunday of "national renewal" (whatever the hell that is) is decades out of date, belonging to the age of three channels of crap on the telly usually consisting of Harry Secombe standing on a hillside looking earnest and warbling away about his old rugged hill far away - turn over to BBC 1 then - oh shit, it's Thora Hird sitting next to some flowers - oh well, at least Love Thy Neighbour is on later.
Unless you're rather old and/or fearful of change 2015 people live 2015 lives, and that includes vastly more flexibility and choice (not just in shopping) than you want people to have. Well, tough.
I don't want Harry Secombe on a hillside and Thora Hird next to flowers..............I want H from steps and Davina McCall and Stars on Sunday with Noel Gallaher.
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Yes but why a Tuesday?
Why not a Tuesday?
Sunday, because it follows Saturday and that constitutes a weekend. A slight tweek and sunday can be made more like a day of national renewal
What is this, exactly?
and infrastructure rest and maintenance.
You must know very little about infrastructure if you think it has a "rest."
Sunday because other societies have their day on sunday.
So what? Since when do we have to copy others?
Why Tuesday then?...there can be but one reason.....It's not sunday. Sorry to piss on your bonfire.
My bonfire remains resolutely lit.
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No if you had read the posts. I am pro small sunday business.
No argument from anybody else here about that, I'm sure.
What I'm against is the 24/7 domination of huge concerns and pro a little weekly change of pace.
What you seem to be saying is that you want everybody else to adopt your pace one day a week because you think they ought to, not because they want to.
The hyperbolic nonsense that anybody who is currently posting here wants everything become to become like an orthodox jewish Sabbath is yours (although that culture has seen off a few twenty four seven civilisations in it's time)
Such as?
Well Judaism was still going after the disappearance of the non Christian roman civilisation or some of the effective city states of the eastern Mediterranean.
where are those cultures now?
They were 24/7 civilisations were they? ;D
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The Roman Empire fell because Starbucks was open 24/7 with people having homosexual sex in the bathrooms
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The bleeders weren't paying their fair whack of taxes back then, either.
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Yes but why a Tuesday?
Why not a Tuesday?
Sunday, because it follows Saturday and that constitutes a weekend. A slight tweek and sunday can be made more like a day of national renewal
What is this, exactly?
and infrastructure rest and maintenance.
You must know very little about infrastructure if you think it has a "rest."
If something is rested it lasts longer and thus requires less maintenance.
That includes maintenance of the human being.
Let's face it society is bound to suffer since the population must be more mobile and big supermarkets do not encourage association of people or the building of small humanely sized and ultimately real communities.
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What in the name of the wee man is an 'ultimately real community'?
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If something is rested it lasts longer and thus requires less maintenance.
That includes maintenance of the human being.
Yet again, nobody's saying that the entire working-age population must be made to work seven days a week. You're erecting a straw man here the size of which makes the one in the final scenes of The Wicker Man look like a garden gnome. The point is that a supposedly mass (which never actually was) day off on the same day is anachronistic and impractical. It's not what most people want; it doesn't meet their needs.
Let's face it society is bound to suffer since the population must be more mobile and big supermarkets do not encourage association of people or the building of small humanely sized and ultimately real communities.
No idea what this wibble is supposed to be about but I can't seen any connection to Sunday trading, so I'll take it as off-topic.
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What in the name of the wee man is an 'ultimately real community'?
Almost the very opposite of an out of town supermarket checkout queue....To keep things in context.
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Anyone? Anyone?
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There are times when I read Vlad's post and is as if half of them have been cut out. This is one of those.
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There are times when I read Vlad's post and is as if half of them have been cut out. This is one of those.
Are you saying I'm the Norman Collier of theological debate?
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What in the name of the wee man is an 'ultimately real community'?
Almost the very opposite of an out of town supermarket checkout queue....To keep things in context.
Nope, not helped, try again and this time think 'how do I best represent my idea clearly'
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There are times when I read Vlad's post and is as if half of them have been cut out. This is one of those.
Are you saying I'm the Norman Collier of theological debate?
L l
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There are times when I read Vlad's post and is as if half of them have been cut out. This is one of those.
Are you saying I'm the Norman Collier of theological debate?
No - dear old Norman was brilliant at what he did.
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There are times when I read Vlad's post and is as if half of them have been cut out. This is one of those.
Are you saying I'm the Norman Collier of theological debate?
No - dear old Norman was brilliant at what he did.
Apparently N rman co ldn't go on st ge o e day be ause he f lt a l ttle funny.
His m nager t ld h m to get on st ge bef re it wore off.
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There are times when I read Vlad's post and is as if half of them have been cut out. This is one of those.
Are you saying I'm the Norman Collier of theological debate?
No - dear old Norman was brilliant at what he did.
Apparently N rman co ldn't go on st ge o e day be ause he f lt a l ttle funny.
His m nager t ld h m to get on st ge bef re it wore off.
Vlad was app...ntly due to att..pt a humorous p.st but was reluct..t to because he felt a l.t.le fun...
.His friend said ''you b.tter g.t on with it b...re it wears .ff''.
So he did.
Unfor....tely by the time he p..ted it was o.vious that he had hesit..ed just a bit t. long!
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There are times when I read Vlad's post and is as if half of them have been cut out. This is one of those.
Are you saying I'm the Norman Collier of theological debate?
No - dear old Norman was brilliant at what he did.
Apparently N rman co ldn't go on st ge o e day be ause he f lt a l ttle funny.
His m nager t ld h m to get on st ge bef re it wore off.
Vlad was app...ntly due to att..pt a humorous p.st but was reluct..t to because he felt a l.t.le fun...
.His friend said ''you b.tter g.t on with it b...re it wears .ff''.
So he did.
Unfor....tely by the time he p..ted it was o.vious that he had hesit..ed just a bit t. long!
Now Sebastian....This post was quite witty. You would get a better response by leaving out more letters..............like.....all of them.
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In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily. People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages. For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really.
I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations. So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them. I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.
I didnt know you lived in Norlfok as well, wiggles - one of my favourite parts of the realm. Lucky you.
By contrast, I couldn't wait to get away from the great flatlands where I spent the first eighteen years of my life (I used to live only a few miles from where wiggi now lives, if I'm not mistaken). I have happy memories of early childhood there, though. More green fields then, more trees (no elms left, of course)
When I left my village, the post-office had been subsumed into part of a Spar store, and I think it remains so. There appeared yet another Spar store near a housing estate on the road to the marsh, whilst two small private shops have disappeared. Two good old pubs have gone.
King's Lynn, three miles away, is thriving with new developments. Such things did not exactly please dear old John Betjman, but most of his beloved historic buildings there are still standing, as far as I know.
BTW, didn't Nietzsche comment that the English made their Sundays so boring, that the lower classes couldn't wait to get back to work? For the bosses, in league with the Church no doubt, that was probably a very satisfactory state of affairs. "Tedium and its doxologies".
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Dear Vlad,
Once again yer right, when yer right yer right, if it was not for the Almost Sensibles of this world I would equate atheism with rampant consumerism.
Gonnagle.
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In my bit of Norfolk, they seem to co-exist happily. People do their 'big shop' at the superstore, but there are still shops in some villages. For example, my local Co-op does a roaring trade, and is not a supermarket really.
I can see why people are upset at small shops closing in rural areas, as it is part of a trend, for example, pubs closing, post offices, and police stations. So some areas start to resemble scorched earth, in the sense that there are absolutely no facilities left, and you have to have a car to reach them. I don't know if Sunday opening will have any impact on this really.
I didnt know you lived in Norlfok as well, wiggles - one of my favourite parts of the realm. Lucky you.
By contrast, I couldn't wait to get away from the great flatlands where I spent the first eighteen years of my life (I used to live only a few miles from where wiggi now lives, if I'm not mistaken). I have happy memories of early childhood there, though. More green fields then, more trees (no elms left, of course)
When I left my village, the post-office had been subsumed into part of a Spar store, and I think it remains so. There appeared yet another Spar store near a housing estate on the road to the marsh, whilst two small private shops have disappeared. Two good old pubs have gone.
King's Lynn, three miles away, is thriving with new developments. Such things did not exactly please dear old John Betjman, but most of his beloved historic buildings there are still standing, as far as I know.
BTW, didn't Nietzsche comment that the English made their Sundays so boring, that the lower classes couldn't wait to get back to work? For the bosses, in league with the Church no doubt, that was probably a very satisfactory state of affairs. "Tedium and its doxologies".
King's Lynn is most definitely best driven through very quickly, with one's eyes closed if possible.
But in Norfolk for every spot that feels like hell on earth there's one that's God's own kingdom. Same as my home county.
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Anyways, back on topic. Just been to Tesco and had a word with the friendly checkout person (community thingy going on there, see?) after being directed to nice empty till by another and given replacement bread for the loaves inadvertently squashed at the bottom of my trolley by one of the managers. Anyways, friendly check-out person informs me that she likes working longer hours on Sunday as it's time and a half. She has to work late anyway because the self service tills need sorting so it makes no odds to her. She's contracted to work weekends but others aren't - but she prefers weekend work as its busier and so more interesting. Of far more concern is the imminent opening of a new Aldi - the most recent staff are already having their contracts cancelled. I haven't heard of small businesses laying off staff because of a supermarket that hasn't opened yet.
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King's Lynn is most definitely best driven through very quickly, with one's eyes closed if possible.
I spent a month there one weekend not long back and can confirm that apart from that bit by the river (North Quay, South Quay, Hanse House and so on) it's the town that the Luftwaffe forgot.
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Yes, sorry, back on track :)
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Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
Most people in this country are not Christians.
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King's Lynn is most definitely best driven through very quickly, with one's eyes closed if possible.
I spent a month there one weekend not long back and can confirm that apart from that bit by the river (North Quay, South Quay, Hanse House and so on) it's the town that the Luftwaffe forgot.
The ad at the bottom of the screen is offering me a stay in a King's Lynn holiday camp. :)
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Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
Most people in this country are not Christians.
In fact according to one survey carried out in April this year 62% said they were not religious.
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Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
Most people in this country are not Christians.
In fact according to one survey acarried out in April this year 62% said they were not religious.
There are quite a lot of active Muslims in this country. Maybe we should designate Friday as the National Weekly Holiday.
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Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
Most people in this country are not Christians.
In fact according to one survey acarried out in April this year 62% said they were not religious.
There are quite a lot of active Muslims in this country. Maybe we should designate Friday as the National Weekly Holiday.
... for national renewal ;)
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Dear Shaker,
Course they are religious, they worship at the temple of Tesco and Asda but that's low Church high Church is Waitrose.
Gonnagle.
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Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
Most people in this country are not Christians.
In fact according to one survey acarried out in April this year 62% said they were not religious.
There are quite a lot of active Muslims in this country. Maybe we should designate Friday as the National Weekly Holiday.
Given our need not to be seen to be favouring one religion over another, surely it has to be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. Otherwise it might be seen to favour Muslims (if Friday), Jews (if Saturday) or Christians (if Sunday).
Lets go for Tuesday.
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Lets go for Tuesday.
So you want to favour people who worship the Germanic god of war do you?
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Please give reasons why it should be any day other than sunday.
Most people in this country are not Christians.
In fact according to one survey acarried out in April this year 62% said they were not religious.
There are quite a lot of active Muslims in this country. Maybe we should designate Friday as the National Weekly Holiday.
Given our need not to be seen to be favouring one religion over another, surely it has to be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. Otherwise it might be seen to favour Muslims (if Friday), Jews (if Saturday) or Christians (if Sunday).
Lets go for Tuesday.
No, it's Heathen, as is every day except Saturday. But that's Roman pagan.
I know, why not make it the day that suits people best? My friends who own and run an independent gift shop work a six day week and take Monday off.
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No, it's Heathen, as is every day except Saturday. But that's Roman pagan.
I know, why not make it the day that suits people best? My friends who own and run an independent gift shop work a six day week and take Monday off.
... and then there's the fact that a great many restaurants/takeaways etc. are closed Mondays.
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Dear Shaker,
Course they are religious, they worship at the temple of Tesco and Asda but that's low Church high Church is Waitrose.
Gonnagle.
You know why I like supermarkets? Because I take my kids in the car with the iPod playing a mixed-up playlist, and we walk around the supermarket singing and arguing over who pushes the trolley, then we come home and put it away together (still singing) and then we get some more precious time together because it's done, we have stuff to cook and stuff to eat, and then we do cook and eat and we love it. And I'm sorry it isn't like that for everyone, but me not going to Tesco on a Sunday won't change that.
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You know why I like supermarkets? Because I take my kids in the car with the iPod playing a mixed-up playlist, and we walk around the supermarket singing and arguing over who pushes the trolley, then we come home and put it away together (still singing) and then we get some more precious time together because it's done, we have stuff to cook and stuff to eat, and then we do cook and eat and we love it. And I'm sorry it isn't like that for everyone, but me not going to Tesco on a Sunday won't change that.
Pull me up on this by all means if I'm wrong, but that comes across as family time to me, the sort of thing that the antis think that Sunday trading (especially more Sunday trading than we currently have) will be killed off or at least harmed or damaged by in some way. Have I missed something?
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You know why I like supermarkets? Because I take my kids in the car with the iPod playing a mixed-up playlist, and we walk around the supermarket singing and arguing over who pushes the trolley, then we come home and put it away together (still singing) and then we get some more precious time together because it's done, we have stuff to cook and stuff to eat, and then we do cook and eat and we love it. And I'm sorry it isn't like that for everyone, but me not going to Tesco on a Sunday won't change that.
Pull me up on this by all means if I'm wrong, but that comes across as family time to me, the sort of thing that the antis think that Sunday trading (especially more Sunday trading than we currently have) will be killed off or at least harmed or damaged by in some way. Have I missed something?
Yep, it's family time. It frees up time to do other things because I get everything I need in one hit, but also it's something fun in itself. It hasn't always been possible for us to do this for various reasons and so it means the world to me. I just hope that people who work on Sundays get their family time, if they want it.
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Lets go for Tuesday.
So you want to favour people who worship the Germanic god of war do you?
Hmm - yup your right. Monday it is then.
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Lets go for Tuesday.
So you want to favour people who worship the Germanic god of war do you?
Hmm - yup your right. Monday it is then.
Why have you got such a downer on those who worship lunar deities, you fascist?
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Lets go for Tuesday.
So you want to favour people who worship the Germanic god of war do you?
Hmm - yup your right. Monday it is then.
Doesn't work either.
http://heathendailyliving.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/daily-rituals-for-each-day-of-week.html
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Lets go for Tuesday.
So you want to favour people who worship the Germanic god of war do you?
Hmm - yup your right. Monday it is then.
Doesn't work either.
http://heathendailyliving.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/daily-rituals-for-each-day-of-week.html
Blimey guys - tricky isn't it.
I know here's another idea. Rather than insist on a state defined day of leisure (which of course wouldn't be as many people's leisure activities require others to be working to allow them to pursue that leisure activity) - why not let people decide when they want to spend time not working and how they choose to spend that time.
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Blimey guys - tricky isn't it.
I know here's another idea. Rather than insist on a state defined day of leisure (which of course wouldn't be as many people's leisure activities require others to be working to allow them to pursue that leisure activity) - why not let people decide when they want to spend time not working and how they choose to spend that time.
No ... no ... there has to be something wrong with that somewhere along the line ... I'll get back to you.
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Blimey guys - tricky isn't it.
I know here's another idea. Rather than insist on a state defined day of leisure (which of course wouldn't be as many people's leisure activities require others to be working to allow them to pursue that leisure activity) - why not let people decide when they want to spend time not working and how they choose to spend that time.
No ... no ... there has to be something wrong with that somewhere along the line ... I'll get back to you.
Sorry - my mistake - I forgot that it is of course important for some people to be allowed (throughout the law) to dictate what I can and cannot do on one specific day of the week compared to the others.
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Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.
The Government is constantly extolling both the virtues and the necessity of encouraging the growth of small businesses. But, of course the selfish, politically inept, characters on here care only for their own convenience, and the little shops and shopkeepers can go to the wall. Of course, the greedy, grasping supermarkets are to be encouraged to fleece us out of even more money with their grossly inflated prices.
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Dear Bashers,
Step away from the thread, their arguments are like dust, they have built their house on sand, tumbleweed blows through the thread, they are left weeping and gnashing their teeth, the sweat shops of India are rejoicing that their are still some who worship at the temple of consumerism.
Gonnagle.
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Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.
The Government is constantly extolling both the virtues and the necessity of encouraging the growth of small businesses. But, of course the selfish, politically inept, characters on here care only for their own convenience, and the little shops and shopkeepers can go to the wall. Of course, the greedy, grasping supermarkets are to be encouraged to fleece us out of even more money with their grossly inflated prices.
The vast, vast (even add it a third time) vast majority of small businesses in this country will not be affected one iota by whether or not supermarkets can open longer on a Sunday - why - because they aren't competing with supermarkets. For example the nursery I own or the business firm he friend whose 40th I am going to tonight owns.
Except in one respect - a boost to jobs and to the economy tends to help everyone in the economy because there is a little more cash around to be spent - for example through those able to increase their hours to levels they'd prefer or actually getting a job when they didn't have one due to the increased hours for some shops.
And as has been pointed out many times the small shops that were likely to go to the wall due to supermarket competition have long since gone to the wall. Successful small businesses these days aren't going head to head with the big supermarkets - they offer something different and will still be offering something different if Tescos starts to open from 8-7 on a Sunday.
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Dear Bashers,
Step away from the thread, their arguments are like dust, they have built their house on sand, tumbleweed blows through the thread, they are left weeping and gnashing their teeth, the sweat shops of India are rejoicing that their are still some who worship at the temple of consumerism.
Gonnagle.
Spot-on, as usual Gonners. But, unfortunately, there is a gap as big as an elephant's bottom between them and what is good for all.
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Of course, the greedy, grasping supermarkets are to be encouraged to fleece us out of even more money with their grossly inflated prices.
Do they compel people, on threat of penalties of one sort or another, to enter their doors, then?
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Dear Bashers,
Step away from the thread, their arguments are like dust, they have built their house on sand, tumbleweed blows through the thread, they are left weeping and gnashing their teeth, the sweat shops of India are rejoicing that their are still some who worship at the temple of consumerism.
Gonnagle.
The only thing I bought today that comes from India was Fairtrade tea. You seem to be confused as to what I meant by 'buying stuff to cook and eat'.
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Spot-on, as usual Gonners.
How and why is Gonners "spot on"? You forgot to say.
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Dear Shaker,
Yes, 50% off, five hundred shops and get free petrol, hey kids bring your folks along and get a free plastic toy, buy ten get a free hernia, Disney says this cereal is great for you.
Shaker, I love you, give it up :-*
Gonnagle.
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Spot-on, as usual Gonners.
How and why is Gonners "spot on"? You forgot to say.
It means, he is correct!
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Of course, the greedy, grasping supermarkets are to be encouraged to fleece us out of even more money with their grossly inflated prices.
Do they compel people, on threat of penalties of one sort or another, to enter their doors, then?
No, but present people with an easy option, and they will take it.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Shut up.
This post is sealed with a loving kiss.
Gonnagle.
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Spot-on, as usual Gonners.
How and why is Gonners "spot on"? You forgot to say.
It means, he is correct!
No, no, you didn't say why he is correct; you have merely asserted that in your opinion he is.
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Of course, the greedy, grasping supermarkets are to be encouraged to fleece us out of even more money with their grossly inflated prices.
Do they compel people, on threat of penalties of one sort or another, to enter their doors, then?
No, but present people with an easy option, and they will take it.
So competent consenting adults can't act as free agents of their own volition, then? That seems to be what you're saying.
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Spot-on, as usual Gonners.
How and why is Gonners "spot on"? You forgot to say.
It means, he is correct!
No, no, you didn't say why he is correct; you have merely asserted that in your opinion he is.
It is self-evidennt to all, except the deliberately argumentative.
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It is self-evidennt to all
I assume you mean self-evident. It isn't self evident or I wouldn't be asking you to clarify, which it looks as though you cannot do.
except the deliberately argumentative.
Amongst whose ranks I am to be counted until my dying breath, thank goodness. So?
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It is self-evidennt to all
I assume you mean self-evident. It isn't self evident or I wouldn't be asking you to clarify, which it looks as though you cannot do.
except the deliberately argumentative.
Amongst whose ranks I am to be counted until my dying breath, thank goodness. So?
It is self-evident to all but those who will not accept it, because they cannot ever accept to being in the wrong.
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Is there something inherently good, fine, noble, praiseworthy and deserving of protection and preservation about small shops (which for current legal purposes is anything under the entirely arbitrary 280 sq. m/3000 sq. ft.)? I see a lot of standing up for the small shop by the anti-choice brigade on here with no justification offered as to why except that they're small, apparently.
The Government is constantly extolling both the virtues and the necessity of encouraging the growth of small businesses. But, of course the selfish, politically inept, characters on here care only for their own convenience, and the little shops and shopkeepers can go to the wall. Of course, the greedy, grasping supermarkets are to be encouraged to fleece us out of even more money with their grossly inflated prices.
I suspect that the 'small shops going to the wall if this happens' is a slippery slope argument.
Where I have lived for the last 30 years (Bearsden & Milngavie) we have had two large supermarkets (Tesco & Asda) that are both open till 10pm 7 days a week, with the Asda at Clydebank (10 minutes drive away) is 24 hours/7 days a week, and just a couple of months ago a Waitrose (which we don't have that many in Scotland) has opened just a few hundred yards from Tesco.
None of the local convenience shops have closed, and there are at least 6 or 7 of these in the area that have all been on the go for years now, along with Farmfoods, Lidl, Iceland and a small Marks & Spencer food supermarket that is just 100 yards from Tesco - and all seem to be busy. I can't remember there ever being issues here about small shops, and from my point of view they and supermarkets meet different needs and can co-exist: the smaller shops provide convenience shopping for selected items whereas the supermarkets are catering more for higher volume/multiple item-type shopping.
So, from my experience, the 'protect small-shops' argument isn't remotely convincing, and even it is was I'm wondering why should that constrain alternatives that would probably find public support based on the numbers I see in my local Tesco on Sunday evenings. This isn't hypothetical, since it is routine reality here and nobody is forced to use large supermarkets after 4pm on Sunday - but they do, and presumably in large enough numbers to make it viable, and where smaller retail outlets continue to trade.
As far as I can see the ST naysayers in E & W are doing no more than using a fallacious argument from tradition to seek to constrain others from doing routine shopping after 4pm on Sundays - they remind me of this quote from Bertrand Russell;
The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others.
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It is self-evident to all but those who will not accept it, because they cannot ever accept to being in the wrong.
What is "self-evident"?
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Dear Rhiannon,
Shut up.
This post is sealed with a loving kiss.
Gonnagle.
But this isn't making sense, Gonners. If you want people not to buy sweatshop crap then tell the corner shop and markets (that everyone seems to universally agree we should all be shopping at) to stop flogging it - you can't move in my local newsagents for plastic tat. Why is it ok for them to open early to sell crap but Tesco can't? At least Tesco have a few Fairtrade and organic things.
What makes you think I go to a supermarket to do anything other than feed my family and fill the car up?
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Of course, the greedy, grasping supermarkets are to be encouraged to fleece us out of even more money with their grossly inflated prices.
Do they compel people, on threat of penalties of one sort or another, to enter their doors, then?
No, but present people with an easy option, and they will take it.
So competent consenting adults can't act as free agents of their own voilition, then? That seems to be what you're saying.
Au contraire. I am saying that given the chance to take the easy option of using the supermarket rather than find a small shop that can provide what they want, they will choose the supermarket. And add further profit to the grasping giants.
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So, from my experience, the 'protect small-shops' argument isn't remotely convincing
On the basis of direct personal experience wigginhall has said this.
On the basis of direct personal experience Rhiannon has said this.
On the basis of direct personal experience I have said this.
I'm starting to smell that the pseudo-argument about small local convenience shops going to the wall is horseshit.
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Au contraire. I am saying that given the chance to take the easy option of using the supermarket rather than find a small shop that can provide what they want, they will choose the supermarket. And add further profit to the grasping giants.
Can the average person/family do a weekly shop and get all they want/need at a small shop, then?
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But, unfortunately, there is a gap as big as an elephant's bottom between them and what is good for all.
If it is 'good for all' to constrain ST then; a) who determines that this is indeed 'good for all' and how is this justified, and b) since I'm not constrained as you are then what negatives should I be wary of?
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Au contraire. I am saying that given the chance to take the easy option of using the supermarket rather than find a small shop that can provide what they want, they will choose the supermarket. And add further profit to the grasping giants.
Can the average person/family do a weekly shop and get all they want/need at a small shop, then?
The Olympic exercise was clear evidence that the supermarkets would further trample on the small shops, given the opportunity: see, M311. If families cannot get their weekly shop done, over six days of sometimes 24-hour opening, and six hours on a Sunday, then they should organise themselves better. It is possible to use both kinds of out-let; but at the present it is not a level playing field. The supermarkets have all the advantages; why should they have even more?
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Dear Gordon,
Or should I say Granda ( bugger I am hitting below the belt, sorry mate, yes I will buy you a malt of your choice ) where does it end, small shops are okay just now ( heavy empathise on now ) but when your Grand kids are looking after their Grand kids, what stories they will tell.
Gonnagle.
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But, unfortunately, there is a gap as big as an elephant's bottom between them and what is good for all.
If it is 'good for all' to constrain ST then; a) who determines that this is indeed 'good for all' and how is this justified, and b) since I'm not constrained as you are then what negatives should I be wary of?
It is good for all because everyone can still shop on Sunday, but with less detrimental effect on the smaller shops.
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The Olympic exercise was clear evidence that the supermarkets would further trample on the small shops, given the opportunity: see, M311.
So why fetishise smallness and lack of choice, then, as I asked earlier?
If families cannot get their weekly shop done, over six days of sometimes 24-hour opening, and six hours on a Sunday, then they should organise themselves better.
The ever clear Professor Davey has addressed this in multiple posts throughout this thread far better than I ever could.
It is possible to use both kinds of out-let;
That's what most people not only seem to want but actually have, if the experience of wigginhall, Rhiannon and myself (I think in rural or semi-rural areas in all cases) is anything to go by.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Post 418, WHAT!! The small shops keep the sweat shops running, we all know what keeps the sweat shops running, our greed.
Gonnagle.
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The Olympic exercise was clear evidence that the supermarkets would further trample on the small shops, given the opportunity: see, M311.
So why fetishise smallness and lack of choice, then, as I asked earlier?
If families cannot get their weekly shop done, over six days of sometimes 24-hour opening, and six hours on a Sunday, then they should organise themselves better.
The ever clear Professor Davey has addressed this in multiple posts throughout this thread far better than I ever could.
It is possible to use both kinds of out-let;
That's what most people not only seem to want but actually have, if the experience of wigginhall, Rhiannon and myself (I think in rural or semi-rural areas in all cases) is anything to go by.
I am not doing anything of the sort. I am merely saying it is unfair to allow the supermarkets an even bigger chance to dominate the market than they already have.
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I can't be the only one to have noticed Shaker arguing both for Tuesday to be the national day of rest and for there to be no day of rest. ;D ;D ;D
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Dear Rhiannon,
Post 418, WHAT!! The small shops keep the sweat shops running, we all know what keeps the sweat shops running, our greed.
Gonnagle.
Indeed. But the crap isn't exclusive to the supermarkets, or even their main focus, unlike many a pound shop and market stall. So how is this relevant to supermarkets being able to open longer on a Sunday?
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I can't be the only one to have noticed Shaker arguing both for Tuesday to be the national day of rest and for there to be no day of rest. ;D ;D ;D
If you think that, either you don't read too well or don't understand too well.
Based on considerable experience my money's on the latter ;)
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Au contraire. I am saying that given the chance to take the easy option of using the supermarket rather than find a small shop that can provide what they want, they will choose the supermarket. And add further profit to the grasping giants.
Can the average person/family do a weekly shop and get all they want/need at a small shop, then?
No. No small shop near me sells any decent fresh fruit and veg, and there is no greengrocer. I have a choice of a once-a-week market guy, extortionate and erratic farm shops or the supermarket.
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Dear Rhiannon,
A slippery slope, this argument is dead, we can argue until kingdom come, the world is standing up to consumerism, the question is, to little to late.
Gonnagle.
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I can't be the only one to have noticed Shaker arguing both for Tuesday to be the national day of rest and for there to be no day of rest. ;D ;D ;D
If you think that, either you don't read too well or don't understand too well.
Based on considerable experience my money's on the latter ;)
Which of your contradictory arguments is it that I should be understanding?
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Dear Gordon,
Or should I say Granda ( bugger I am hitting below the belt, sorry mate, yes I will buy you a malt of your choice ) where does it end, small shops are okay just now ( heavy empathise on now ) but when your Grand kids are looking after their Grand kids, what stories they will tell.
Gonnagle.
I don't think it even starts, Gonners, since while no doubt some small shops may close I doubt that this is mainly from competition from large supermarkets just between 4pm and 10pm on a Sunday. All the ones that have operated near me have been going for years now: I'd say they are meeting a different need, and if anything the main competition to local convenience shops are probably other local convenience shops.
My view on this is quite simple - some things change over time, and shopping is just one example, and recently the increase in internet/on-line shopping competes directly with large supermarkets: we have seen similar changes in banking, where these days I rarely visit a branch and use internet banking instead. Shopping is a reasonable and routine activity and I'm struggling to see why in Carlisle large supermarkets are legally constrained to 6 hours trading on Sunday, while just up the road a little those in Dumfries aren't legally constrained in the same way.
I suspect that the main issue in E & W is that some there want their 'traditions' enforced.
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Dear Rhiannon,
A slippery slope, this argument is dead, we can argue until kingdom come, the world is standing up to consumerism, the question is, to little to late.
Gonnagle.
Changing Sunday trading laws will have minimal impact on consumerism. The businesses who benefit from the current situation are no different. The ones who are part of the fight against consumerism -the bakers, butchers, greengrocers, delis - rarely open on Sundays.
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But, unfortunately, there is a gap as big as an elephant's bottom between them and what is good for all.
If it is 'good for all' to constrain ST then; a) who determines that this is indeed 'good for all' and how is this justified, and b) since I'm not constrained as you are then what negatives should I be wary of?
It is good for all because everyone can still shop on Sunday, but with less detrimental effect on the smaller shops.
You are assuming this 'detrimental effect' - where I live we have unrestricted Sunday trading and the convenience stores I used 20 years ago I still use today.
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But, unfortunately, there is a gap as big as an elephant's bottom between them and what is good for all.
If it is 'good for all' to constrain ST then; a) who determines that this is indeed 'good for all' and how is this justified, and b) since I'm not constrained as you are then what negatives should I be wary of?
It is good for all because everyone can still shop on Sunday, but with less detrimental effect on the smaller shops.
You are assuming this 'detrimental effect' - where I live we have unrestricted Sunday trading and the convenience stores I used 20 years ago I still use today.
Ditto.
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Dear Gordon,
Or should I say Granda ( bugger I am hitting below the belt, sorry mate, yes I will buy you a malt of your choice ) where does it end, small shops are okay just now ( heavy empathise on now ) but when your Grand kids are looking after their Grand kids, what stories they will tell.
Gonnagle.
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Most small shops on my main street died when Thatcher butchered the mines, taking the trade away.
In 1980, there were eighteen small shops.
By 1995, there were six.
In 2000, a mid-size Tesco opened at the foot of our town.
There are seven food newsagent outlets in the town - an increase of one SINCE Tesco opened.
Now, I'm not citing my town as typical, but Tesco, with its' Sunday opening, has not affected the small retail outlets, which get by.
In
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Interesting how a bunch of our Scottish based posters are indicating that extended opening hours, which have been available to shops in Scotland for years, haven't had any effect on smaller shops.
Yet we still have the likes of vlad and BA somehow putting up straw men about small shops and a 'national weekly holiday' when it is patently obvious that their objection is religiously motivated, as is apparent given vlad's refusal to countenance a 'national weekly holiday' on any other day of the week, which should be equally supported if your concerns are genuinely about small shops and working people, rather than religion.
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Interesting how a bunch of our Scottish based posters are indicating that extended opening hours, which have been available to shops in Scotland for years, haven't had any effect on smaller shops.
Yet we still have the likes of vlad and BA somehow putting up straw men about small shops and a 'national weekly holiday' when it is patently obvious that their objection is religiously motivated, as is apparent given vlad's refusal to countenance a 'national weekly holiday' on any other day of the week, which should be equally supported if your concerns are genuinely about small shops and working people, rather than religion.
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I'dd only add here that most Scottish Christians have no problems with the legislation re: Sunday trading as it stands.
Of course we reverence Sunday as the first day of the week - the day we believe Christ rose from the dead.
But the idea of imposing any restrictions regarding the Christian Sabbath on those who do not share our faith simply is a non-starter*
* - unless you live in the Western Isles.
I doubt whether BA or Vlad would countenance the "Wee Free" Sabbath.
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What kinds of arrangements did people have about weekly breaks or holidays pre-Christianity?
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I remember in Wales back in the late 70s my mum being refused a glass of wine in a restaurant because 'Gwynedd is dry on Sundays'.
I think the underlying reason why Christians feel such unease about the change in the Sunday trading laws is that it is further evidence that most of the country is happy to ignore what the church thinks, and that its influence is becoming ever more limited.
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Interesting how a bunch of our Scottish based posters are indicating that extended opening hours, which have been available to shops in Scotland for years, haven't had any effect on smaller shops.
Yet we still have the likes of vlad and BA somehow putting up straw men about small shops and a 'national weekly holiday' when it is patently obvious that their objection is religiously motivated, as is apparent given vlad's refusal to countenance a 'national weekly holiday' on any other day of the week, which should be equally supported if your concerns are genuinely about small shops and working people, rather than religion.
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I'dd only add here that most Scottish Christians have no problems with the legislation re: Sunday trading as it stands.
Of course we reverence Sunday as the first day of the week - the day we believe Christ rose from the dead.
But the idea of imposing any restrictions regarding the Christian Sabbath on those who do not share our faith simply is a non-starter*
* - unless you live in the Western Isles.
I doubt whether BA or Vlad would countenance the "Wee Free" Sabbath.
I think that's right - I think for most people in Scotland the notion that larger shops can only open from 10-4 or 11-5 seems very odd and anachronistic. They are used to much a more civilised approach on Sundays and I'm sure end up rather bemused when south of the border when they try to pop into Tesco's at 9am or Homebase at 4pm and find them shut.
I don't think that even BA and vlad are arguing overtly for a wee free style Sunday, but that would be the actual consequence of their suggested 'national weekly holiday' (which is of course merely a smokescreen to try to pretend their view isn't religiously motivated) in which no-one should be working unless in essential/emergency services. So the following would not be possible on a Sunday because they aren't essential and require people to work to deliver them:
Any shops
All restaurants, cafes, pubs etc
Public transport (arguable perhaps justified because people in emergency jobs need to travel)
Museums
Theatre, cinemas, musics venues etc
The Wimbledon men's final
The test match (oh actually that's already over)
All other sporting events
Going to the swimming pool or gym
TV and Radio (is it really essential?)
etc, etc
Oh and of course ...
All church services as they require people to work on a Sunday 'national weekly holiday'.
So everyone would have a day off, but most people wouldn't be able to do any of the things they want to do.
Non-sense on stilts.
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I remember in Wales back in the late 70s my mum being refused a glass of wine in a restaurant because 'Gwynedd is dry on Sundays'.
I think the underlying reason why Christians feel such unease about the change in the Sunday trading laws is that it is further evidence that most of the country is happy to ignore what the church thinks, and that its influence is becoming ever more limited.
I went to University in Aberystwyth which was dry throughout the 1980s. Actually you could get a drink provided it was in a members club rather than a pub.
I don't think many Christians are actually that uneasy at all. Indeed I think there are plenty (almost certainly the majority) who have no problem with attending church, then off to the garden centre and maybe a spot of lunch in a local pub etc. And I'm sure plenty think the current trading laws are nonsense. So this isn't even a Christians vs the rest argument, but a peculiar bunch of fundamentalist Christians vs moderate Christians plus the rest argument.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
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I think for most people in Scotland the notion that larger shops can only open from 10-4 or 11-5 seems very odd and anachronistic. They are used to much a more civilised approach on Sundays and I'm sure end up rather bemused when south of the border when they try to pop into Tesco's at 9am or Homebase at 4pm and find them shut.
I just spent the last two weeks in Cornwall and I had to remember on both Sundays that the main supermarkets were on restricted hours if we wanted to use them.
Back home last evening, so went to Tesco at 8am this morning to get some essentials since the grandkids are here all day (their parents both working), and Mrs G will get the rest of what we need later this evening after they have gone - probably around 7pm-ish - and since the grandkids are often here over weekends she often shops on a Sunday evening this isn't unusual.
I can't see why some in E & W would see our shopping plans for today as being akin to the end of civilisation as we know it since it is just uneventful routine here; but is an option we have that is legally denied to you guys south of the border.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.
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I think for most people in Scotland the notion that larger shops can only open from 10-4 or 11-5 seems very odd and anachronistic. They are used to much a more civilised approach on Sundays and I'm sure end up rather bemused when south of the border when they try to pop into Tesco's at 9am or Homebase at 4pm and find them shut.
I just spent the last two weeks in Cornwall and I had to remember on both Sundays that the main supermarkets were on restricted hours if we wanted to use them.
Back home last evening, so went to Tesco at 8am this morning to get some essentials since the grandkids are here all day (their parents both working), and Mrs G will get the rest of what we need later this evening after they have gone - probably around 7pm-ish - and since the grandkids are often here over weekends she often shops on a Sunday evening this isn't unusual.
I can't see why some in E & W would see our shopping plans for today as being akin to the end of civilisation as we know it since it is just uneventful routine here; but is an option we have that is legally denied to you guys south of the border.
Yes, in the past the biggest impact this would have had for me would have been being able getting hold of Calpol in an emergency early rather than wait till ten - the one time I bought some from a convenience store (who only do the sachets which don't give accurate dosage btw) I discovered it had gone past its expirary date. Now the biggest difference is that I have to wait to get fresh produce, for a picnic for example - day-old baguette isn't nice - or compromise on what we have ie bread that is designed to keep rather than be eaten freshly baked. Gonners might say that is rampant consumerism but that doesn't give anyone the right to dictate what time on a Sunday I can be a rampant consumerist.
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Dear Rhiannon,
A rethink, yes that is exactly what I am arguing for, less artics on the road, less food wastage, consumer and supermarket, less working hours, more time with family.
Gonnagle.
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But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
I think this encapsulates one of two ways of looking at things.
Either:
- everything is banned unless there is a reason why it should be allowed or
- everything is allowed unless there is a good reason why it should be banned.
You prefer the former, I prefer the latter.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.
So the answer to getting less consumerism is........ a bit more consumerism.
That's like giving an alcoholic a hair of the dog or one for the road.
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Nearly 12:15 on a Sunday - no sign of being forced to shop as yet - have till 16:00 though - wish me luck - Shaker out.
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Dear Rhiannon,
A rethink, yes that is exactly what I am arguing for, less artics on the road, less food wastage, consumer and supermarket, less working hours, more time with family.
Gonnagle.
Sunday opening reduces food wastage.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
I think you are Scottish based, so another Scottish poster who already benefits from extended opening hours on Sunday accepting it doesn't have a detrimental effect on small businesses.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
So as a Scottish poster, where extended opening hours are already permitted I assume you want to see that reversed in Scotland to restrict opening hours on Sundays to 6 hours for large shops (as in E&W) or perhaps even further. Do you really want to see this restriction applied. Do you currently see your own county's moral position hampered by your current opening hours on a Sunday?
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I think for most people in Scotland the notion that larger shops can only open from 10-4 or 11-5 seems very odd and anachronistic. They are used to much a more civilised approach on Sundays and I'm sure end up rather bemused when south of the border when they try to pop into Tesco's at 9am or Homebase at 4pm and find them shut.
I just spent the last two weeks in Cornwall and I had to remember on both Sundays that the main supermarkets were on restricted hours if we wanted to use them.
Back home last evening, so went to Tesco at 8am this morning to get some essentials since the grandkids are here all day (their parents both working), and Mrs G will get the rest of what we need later this evening after they have gone - probably around 7pm-ish - and since the grandkids are often here over weekends she often shops on a Sunday evening this isn't unusual.
I can't see why some in E & W would see our shopping plans for today as being akin to the end of civilisation as we know it since it is just uneventful routine here; but is an option we have that is legally denied to you guys south of the border.
Exactly.
So the longer opening hours allows you to ensure that the need for shopping is minimally intrusive on you family life. Why is this so hard to understand for some other posters. Effectively that longer opening hours on a Sunday means it is easier to fit the need for shopping around the desire to enjoy life (including family life) rather than requiring family life and other pleasures to be fitted around the short shop opening hours.
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Generally, Gonners, a supermarket is a place to buy food. My local Tesco does a limited range of magazines and books and some stationery and cooking utensils, and adults' socks. Otherwise, food. It enables me to have more family time, not less, because I can get everything I need with the help of my kids in one hit rather than spending most of a day going to various shops across two towns (the reality of rural living us I couldn't begin to get everything in one place) and at much greater expense. I wish I could produce more food myself but at the moment I can't.
Once I have the food we need I set about creating memories, whether it is what my kids describe as 'awesome' picnics in the grounds of our local stately home, afternoon tea in the garden or dinner around the table. It's not 'stuff', but meals I can create with love for my children. Sharing food with people you love is something that makes life so much richer, no?
What you are arguing for is this.
http://stuffocation.org
I agree. But not being able to buy salad and bread at 8 am on a Sunday won't make a great deal of difference either way.
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Nearly 12:15 on a Sunday - no sign of being forced to shop as yet - have till 16:00 though - wish me luck - Shaker out.
Consumerism is not your vice. Posting antitheist cobblers is.
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So the answer to getting less consumerism is........ a bit more consumerism.
That's like giving an alcoholic a hair of the dog or one for the road.
See Gordon's recent post.
Extended opening hours isn't increasing consumerism at all, but is allowing him to enjoy his family life rather more easily knowing he and his missus can pop into the supermarket first thing or last thing during the day on Sunday thus not interfering with the enjoyment of the visit from grandchildren.
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Dear Rhiannon,
A rethink, yes that is exactly what I am arguing for, less artics on the road, less food wastage, consumer and supermarket, less working hours, more time with family.
Gonnagle.
Sunday opening reduces food wastage.
Agreed.
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Dear Rhiannon,
A rethink, yes that is exactly what I am arguing for, less artics on the road, less food wastage, consumer and supermarket, less working hours, more time with family.
Gonnagle.
Sunday opening reduces food wastage.
I think you will find that in the early fifties when only the papershop was allowed open on sunday AM that food wastage was minimal.
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Nearly 12:15 on a Sunday - no sign of being forced to shop as yet - have till 16:00 though - wish me luck - Shaker out.
Consumerism is not your vice. Posting antitheist cobblers is.
Why is it anti-theist to go shopping on a Sunday? Your own holy book tells you that Saturday is the one that is a no-no for shopping.
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I think you will find that in the early fifties when only the papershop was allowed open on sunday AM that food wastage was minimal.
And you don't think rationing had anything to do with that?
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I think you will find that in the early fifties when only the papershop was allowed open on sunday AM that food wastage was minimal.
And you don't think rationing had anything to do with that?
So you agree that food wastage is linked to having plenty and more sunday trading means greater plenitude.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.
So the answer to getting less consumerism is........ a bit more consumerism.
That's like giving an alcoholic a hair of the dog or one for the road.
If you want to argue that allowing Westgate and Bluewater to open longer encourages consumerism, I'll listen. But this conversation has focussed on the need to protect small shops (which are very often stuffed with pointless manufactured crap) against supermarkets, which generally sell food. There are all kinds of problems that supermarkets could do with addressing, but that doesn't make them temples of rampant consumerism, just places to buy stuff to eat.
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Dear Prof,
My position as a Scot, Glaswegian, Brit, I want the weekend for family, community, leisure, I want one day where the world stops.
One day with no cars on the road, one day of silence.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Prof,
My position as a Scot, Glaswegian, Brit, I want the weekend for family, community, leisure, I want one day where the world stops.
One day with no cars on the road, one day of silence.
Gonnagle.
So do you support bringing in restrictions to shop opening hours in Scotland to align with E&W or even to go further than that, for example banning opening entirely.
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Dear Rhiannon,
I am not against supermarkets, I am against 24/7 shopping.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Prof,
My position as a Scot, Glaswegian, Brit, I want the weekend for family, community, leisure, I want one day where the world stops.
One day with no cars on the road, one day of silence.
Gonnagle.
So no Sunday pub lunch, no footie or cricket, no trips to pretty gardens or chips at the seaside? No family museum events, heritage weekends, Sunday afternoon concerts in the park, weekend-long festivals?
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One day with no cars on the road, one day of silence.
Go live in the western isles then seeing as your desire is to an extent what the wee frees would like.
But just to check there isn't a wee touch of double standards here, I assume you would extend that to people who need to drive to get to church - that shouldn't happen too in your 'no cars on the road' wish.
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Dear Prof,
I might be a Glaswegian but I do practice the Queens English, the answer to your question, YES!!
Gonnagle.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.
So the answer to getting less consumerism is........ a bit more consumerism.
That's like giving an alcoholic a hair of the dog or one for the road.
If you want to argue that allowing Westgate and Bluewater to open longer encourages consumerism, I'll listen. But this conversation has focussed on the need to protect small shops (which are very often stuffed with pointless manufactured crap) against supermarkets, which generally sell food. There are all kinds of problems that supermarkets could do with addressing, but that doesn't make them temples of rampant consumerism, just places to buy stuff to eat.
No several supermarkets retail electrical goods, hardware, clothing in fact anything they would sell during the week.
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Dear Rhiannon,
I am not against supermarkets, I am against 24/7 shopping.
Gonnagle.
What do you think the internet enables? 24/7 shopping's already well established. I can buy as much over-manufactured, planet-destroying tat that I want whenever I want, any day of the year, and get it flown in from anywhere in the world and delivered to my door. The one thing I can't get is decent fresh food early on a Sunday morning.
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One of the tenets of consumerism is that the human being is inadequate and in need of material acquisition.
That is a homoncularisation. 24/7 society with 24/7 people means no reflection on it all. Basically reflection or even time to be is the enemy of those who wish to turn us into a ''herd''. The process is neotenisation where we are juvenilised.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.
So the answer to getting less consumerism is........ a bit more consumerism.
That's like giving an alcoholic a hair of the dog or one for the road.
If you want to argue that allowing Westgate and Bluewater to open longer encourages consumerism, I'll listen. But this conversation has focussed on the need to protect small shops (which are very often stuffed with pointless manufactured crap) against supermarkets, which generally sell food. There are all kinds of problems that supermarkets could do with addressing, but that doesn't make them temples of rampant consumerism, just places to buy stuff to eat.
No several supermarkets retail electrical goods, hardware, clothing in fact anything they would sell during the week.
Not all supermarkets do. See my post above. They are not shopping destinations in the same way that the big malls are and the current practice is indicating that the gigantic superstores are a thing of the past as they increasingly need to sub-let space to other retailers or for other uses (eg gym, medical centres etc)
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Dear Vlad,
I Love your big words, but yes a time for reflection.
Dear Rhiannon,
Fresh produce!! Do you hear yourself!! I know that you are not stupid and you know what it entails to put that fresh produce on your table.
Gonnagle.
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No several supermarkets retail electrical goods, hardware, clothing in fact anything they would sell during the week.
Good - that is the point of having no ST restrictions: when Mrs G goes to Tesco at 7ish this evening one item on the list is a pair of 'in-ear' headphones.
Why should I be restricted to what I buy on Sunday evenings (apart from alcohol after 10pm) - wait a minute: I'm not, but you are Vlad.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.
So the answer to getting less consumerism is........ a bit more consumerism.
That's like giving an alcoholic a hair of the dog or one for the road.
If you want to argue that allowing Westgate and Bluewater to open longer encourages consumerism, I'll listen. But this conversation has focussed on the need to protect small shops (which are very often stuffed with pointless manufactured crap) against supermarkets, which generally sell food. There are all kinds of problems that supermarkets could do with addressing, but that doesn't make them temples of rampant consumerism, just places to buy stuff to eat.
No several supermarkets retail electrical goods, hardware, clothing in fact anything they would sell during the week.
Not all supermarkets do. See my post above. They are not shopping destinations in the same way that the big malls are and the current practice is indicating that the gigantic superstores are a thing of the past as they increasingly need to sub-let space to other retailers or for other uses (eg gym, medical centres etc)
I have at least 7 supermarkets selling a range of electrical, hardware, clothing, services, within 15 minutes drive. And that doesn't include up to six retail parks open in that range.....and I live in a village. So I think you are minimising the problem.
So I don't recognise the picture you are painting.
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Dear Prof,
Oh! I'am a fundie now, wonder if TW has a badge, anyway I am willing to concede that the argument regarding is it good for the economy and will it affect small business, then yes it seems that it will not have a detrimental effect.
But is it good for the country, good for the planet, is it morally good, then no, unless you have a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
Gonnagle.
What you are arguing for is a rethink about consumerism full stop. Extending Sunday trading in England and Wales doesn't particularly impact that.
So the answer to getting less consumerism is........ a bit more consumerism.
That's like giving an alcoholic a hair of the dog or one for the road.
If you want to argue that allowing Westgate and Bluewater to open longer encourages consumerism, I'll listen. But this conversation has focussed on the need to protect small shops (which are very often stuffed with pointless manufactured crap) against supermarkets, which generally sell food. There are all kinds of problems that supermarkets could do with addressing, but that doesn't make them temples of rampant consumerism, just places to buy stuff to eat.
No several supermarkets retail electrical goods, hardware, clothing in fact anything they would sell during the week.
Not all supermarkets do. See my post above. They are not shopping destinations in the same way that the big malls are and the current practice is indicating that the gigantic superstores are a thing of the past as they increasingly need to sub-let space to other retailers or for other uses (eg gym, medical centres etc)
I have at least 7 supermarkets selling a range of electrical, hardware, clothing, services, within 15 minutes drive. And that doesn't include up to six retail parks open in that range.....and I live in a village. So I think you are minimising the problem.
So I don't recognise the picture you are painting.
But their being open for a small number of additional hours on one day a week (when lets face it competing shops currently aren't able to open either as electrical retailers and clothes shops tend to be too large to open unrestricted hours on a Sunday) isn't actually going to alter the situation.
Of course much more problematic to small retailers - e.g. electrical retailers is that people pop in to see the products, get the details and then buy it on line for considerably less.
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The one thing I can't get is decent fresh food early on a Sunday morning.
I live in something between a village and a town, and we can get more than enough fresh food from 7am of a Sunday morning. In fact, the food that is available in supermarkets from 10am is generally less fresh than we can but from the ordinary shops from 7 or 8 am.
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Of course much more problematic to small retailers - e.g. electrical retailers is that people pop in to see the products, get the details and then buy it on line for considerably less.
I suspect that that is as much a problem for the supermakets as it is for the independent, and possibly why they are so keen to open for longer on a Sunday.
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No several supermarkets retail electrical goods, hardware, clothing in fact anything they would sell during the week.
Good - that is the point of having no ST restrictions: when Mrs G goes to Tesco at 7ish this evening one item on the list is a pair of 'in-ear' headphones.
Why should I be restricted to what I buy on Sunday evenings (apart from alcohol after 10pm) - wait a minute: I'm not, but you are Vlad.
I will excuse Mrs G her in ear headphones......I think they are an absolute necessity if sharing a house with a committed antitheist.
Gordon, Its need vs necessity. We need amongst other things to cut down over consumption.
It's saving Vs spending. You can't deny there is a problem with debt etc.
I suspect spending is a bit of an addiction as it is with many people.
I'm afraid your ability to part with your hard earned/ability to be seen coming on a sunday evening doesn't cut any ice with me.
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I have at least 7 supermarkets selling a range of electrical, hardware, clothing, services, within 15 minutes drive. And that doesn't include up to six retail parks open in that range.....and I live in a village. So I think you are minimising the problem.
So I don't recognise the picture you are painting.
So what? If they are open then they are free to trade whatever it is they sell (excepting probably alcohol if separate restrictions apply).
What problem?. There are three large supermarkets within 5 minutes drive from my front door that sell clothing, electrical, books & magazines, DIY stuff and all are open until 10pm this evening - after all, the range of goods in these places sell is rather the point of using them in the first place!
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Dear Vlad,
I Love your big words, but yes a time for reflection.
Dear Rhiannon,
Fresh produce!! Do you hear yourself!! I know that you are not stupid and you know what it entails to put that fresh produce on your table.
Gonnagle.
Mr G, thanks for your continued support and may I congratulate you on your magnificent stance on this thread.
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Of course much more problematic to small retailers - e.g. electrical retailers is that people pop in to see the products, get the details and then buy it on line for considerably less.
Until about 5 or 6 years ago on one of the retail parks nearby there was a gigantic Borders bookshop - a fantastic shop, colossal, cafe upstairs, sold music too. I spent uncountable hours in there.
Unfortunately for the Borders corporation, their books were to my mind ridiculously over-priced, so I was spending my time browsing, writing down the author/title, going online when I got home and buying the books on a certain well-known internet store for a fraction of the cost - mere pennies a lot of the time. The store closed down one Sunday, no doubt helped along in part by me and countless others doing that very thing.
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I will excuse Mrs G her in ear headphones......I think they are an absolute necessity if sharing a house with a committed antitheist.
Gordon, Its need vs necessity. We need amongst other things to cut down over consumption.
It's saving Vs spending. You can't deny there is a problem with debt etc.
I suspect spending is a bit of an addiction as it is with many people.
I'm afraid your ability to part with your hard earned/ability to be seen coming on a sunday evening doesn't cut any ice with me.
Fine - you spend Sunday your way, and at least have the decency to allow others the same option.
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Fine - you spend Sunday your way, and at least have the decency to allow others the same option.
That's not an option for the antis; you have to spend Sunday the way they think you should, reflecting and nationally renewing.
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I have at least 7 supermarkets selling a range of electrical, hardware, clothing, services, within 15 minutes drive. And that doesn't include up to six retail parks open in that range.....and I live in a village. So I think you are minimising the problem.
So I don't recognise the picture you are painting.
So what? If they are open then they are free to trade whatever it is they sell (excepting probably alcohol if separate restrictions apply).
What problem?. !
see reply 482 and replies passim.
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Dear Gordon,
What!! Hello!! I am restricted to when I can and cannot buy booze!! Who do I write to 8) I want to buy my booze 24/7.
What about it Prof and Rhiannon, 24/7 booze, I want to buy my booze whenever I want, how dare those pesky Christians curtail my alcoholic intake.
Gonnagle.
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Quite!
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One of the implications of Osborne's proposal that no one has picked up on yet is that power to extend Sunday trading hours will be devolved to local authorities, meaning in principle that there could be different opening hours in Southampton than Salford - or, to make the comparison even more acute, in Derby as opposed to Nottingham just a few miles away.
I strongly suspect that those local authorities which decide to stick with the status quo will not take long about changing their minds.
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Dear Gordon,
What!! Hello!! I am restricted to when I can and cannot buy booze!! Who do I write to 8) I want to buy my booze 24/7.
What about it Prof and Rhiannon, 24/7 booze, I want to buy my booze whenever I want, how dare those pesky Christians curtail my alcoholic intake.
Gonnagle.
I agree - it is totally nuts that I can't buy a bottle of anything decent at 9.59am but I can 60 seconds later: an arbitrary and silly restriction that we can thank the Scottish Parliament for.
Pointless restrictions are exactly that - pointlessly restrictive.
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Dear Gordon,
What!! Hello!! I am restricted to when I can and cannot buy booze!! Who do I write to 8) I want to buy my booze 24/7.
What about it Prof and Rhiannon, 24/7 booze, I want to buy my booze whenever I want, how dare those pesky Christians curtail my alcoholic intake.
Gonnagle.
I agree - it is totally nuts that I can't buy a bottle of anything decent at 9.59am but I can 60 seconds later: an arbitrary and silly restriction that we can thank the Scottish Parliament for.
Pointless restrictions are exactly that - pointlessly restrictive.
I was going to use that very same example, Gordon.
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I will excuse Mrs G her in ear headphones......I think they are an absolute necessity if sharing a house with a committed antitheist.
Gordon, Its need vs necessity. We need amongst other things to cut down over consumption.
It's saving Vs spending. You can't deny there is a problem with debt etc.
I suspect spending is a bit of an addiction as it is with many people.
I'm afraid your ability to part with your hard earned/ability to be seen coming on a sunday evening doesn't cut any ice with me.
Fine - you spend Sunday your way, and at least have the decency to allow others the same option.
I can almost enjoy the Sunday I want but not for much longer I fear. ''ADHD Nation'' will see to that.
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Dear Vlad,
I Love your big words, but yes a time for reflection.
Dear Rhiannon,
Fresh produce!! Do you hear yourself!! I know that you are not stupid and you know what it entails to put that fresh produce on your table.
Gonnagle.
So what should I do? Only buy canned, stuff in packets?
Being able to buy fresh produce does not mean that I want to or will do - no Sunday shopping in the Rhi household today. But it is riduculous that I can't buy fresh bread but can go on-line and buy any amount of knock-off plastic sweatshop tat directly from China and get it shipped to my door. I've even got an Amazon delivery coming today (before you get on your high horse about that, it's eco-washing stuff we need because of allergies and can't get locally, but it could equally be a carful of pointless crap).
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Dear Gordon,
What!! Hello!! I am restricted to when I can and cannot buy booze!! Who do I write to 8) I want to buy my booze 24/7.
What about it Prof and Rhiannon, 24/7 booze, I want to buy my booze whenever I want, how dare those pesky Christians curtail my alcoholic intake.
Gonnagle.
The sale of booze isn't affected. You can buy is a-plenty (and rot your guts!) from any small shop. You could even buy it a day or two in advance, eh? I realise, of course, that you are tongue in cheek, but there are those who actually present that non-argument.
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I will excuse Mrs G her in ear headphones......I think they are an absolute necessity if sharing a house with a committed antitheist.
Gordon, Its need vs necessity. We need amongst other things to cut down over consumption.
It's saving Vs spending. You can't deny there is a problem with debt etc.
I suspect spending is a bit of an addiction as it is with many people.
I'm afraid your ability to part with your hard earned/ability to be seen coming on a sunday evening doesn't cut any ice with me.
Fine - you spend Sunday your way, and at least have the decency to allow others the same option.
I can almost enjoy the Sunday I want but not for much longer I fear. ''ADHD Nation'' will see to that.
What about your seeking to interfere with the Sundays of others? How does knowing that Tesco is open ruin your day? Why is it only about what you want?
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I will excuse Mrs G her in ear headphones......I think they are an absolute necessity if sharing a house with a committed antitheist.
Gordon, Its need vs necessity. We need amongst other things to cut down over consumption.
It's saving Vs spending. You can't deny there is a problem with debt etc.
I suspect spending is a bit of an addiction as it is with many people.
I'm afraid your ability to part with your hard earned/ability to be seen coming on a sunday evening doesn't cut any ice with me.
Fine - you spend Sunday your way, and at least have the decency to allow others the same option.
I can almost enjoy the Sunday I want but not for much longer I fear. ''ADHD Nation'' will see to that.
How - are there there likely to be roaming retail press-gangs where you are forcing you to spend money in supermarkets on a Sunday afternoon if ST restrictions are binned?
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I will excuse Mrs G her in ear headphones......I think they are an absolute necessity if sharing a house with a committed antitheist.
Gordon, Its need vs necessity. We need amongst other things to cut down over consumption.
It's saving Vs spending. You can't deny there is a problem with debt etc.
I suspect spending is a bit of an addiction as it is with many people.
I'm afraid your ability to part with your hard earned/ability to be seen coming on a sunday evening doesn't cut any ice with me.
Fine - you spend Sunday your way, and at least have the decency to allow others the same option.
I can almost enjoy the Sunday I want but not for much longer I fear. ''ADHD Nation'' will see to that.
What about your seeking to interfere with the Sundays of others? How does knowing that Tesco is open ruin your day? Why is it only about what you want?
"Ruin?" You are over the top here, Rhiannon. Any change in opening hours is not going to make a massive difference, one way or another - except on the livelihood of the small shop-keeper, that is. That small matter seems not to bother most, though.
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One of the implications of Osborne's proposal that no one has picked up on yet is that power to extend Sunday trading hours will be devolved to local authorities, meaning in principle that there could be different opening hours in Southampton than Salford - or, to make the comparison even more acute, in Derby as opposed to Nottingham just a few miles away.
I strongly suspect that those local authorities which decide to stick with the status quo will not take long about changing their minds.
More wear and tear on the infrastructure with migrant shopoholics on the move but I suspect Osborne is doing it knowing that everybody will have have to have it as part of the social and economic Darwinism of ''ADHD Nation''.(so much for choice pro-unbridled consumerists).
I tend to think George would like us to work 24/7 since the number of people needing to do 2 jobs has sky rocketted. Still, what the fuck eh, consumerists.....at least you can get a bottle of Captain Morgan at any time of the day.
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I will excuse Mrs G her in ear headphones......I think they are an absolute necessity if sharing a house with a committed antitheist.
Gordon, Its need vs necessity. We need amongst other things to cut down over consumption.
It's saving Vs spending. You can't deny there is a problem with debt etc.
I suspect spending is a bit of an addiction as it is with many people.
I'm afraid your ability to part with your hard earned/ability to be seen coming on a sunday evening doesn't cut any ice with me.
Fine - you spend Sunday your way, and at least have the decency to allow others the same option.
I can almost enjoy the Sunday I want but not for much longer I fear. ''ADHD Nation'' will see to that.
How - are there there likely to be roaming retail press-gangs where you are forcing you to spend money in supermarkets on a Sunday afternoon if ST restrictions are binned?
Yep, They're called Ocado vans and one click shopping vans.
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I've been thinking about this idea of a 'time for reflection'. Sunday was always Row Day when I was growing up - on Saturday we did stuff, separately or together, but on Sunday we were all stuck together and by tea time the cracks had become chasms and dinner was eaten in silence following a slanging match.
Time for reflection is just about impossible when stuck at home with a moody teenager or tetchy grandparent. Even now most Sundays for me are an endless round of uniform washing, homework supervision and hair washing interspersed with the odd bit of sport on the TV, but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment. We don't end up with stuff, but memories - gardening, walking the dog - but sometimes we need to get away and escape and that involves a degree of work - staff at the gardens, staff in the pub.
I carve out my time for reflection - in the evenings before sleep, first thing in the morning when the house is quiet, even zoning out the TV to write in my journal. The one thing I can guarantee is that I won't get the luxury of a 'day of reflection' on a Sunday regardless of what is and isn't open and I strongly suspect few mothers of school aged children do.
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I've been thinking about this idea of a 'time for reflection'. Sunday was always Row Day when I was growing up - on Saturday we did stuff, separately or together, but on Sunday we were all stuck together and by tea time the cracks had become chasms and dinner was eaten in silence following a slanging match.
Time for reflection is just about impossible when stuck at home with a moody teenager or tetchy grandparent. Even now most Sundays for me are an endless round of uniform washing, homework supervision and hair washing interspersed with the odd bit of sport on the TV, but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment. We don't end up with stuff, but memories - gardening, walking the dog - but sometimes we need to get away and escape and that involves a degree of work - staff at the gardens, staff in the pub.
I carve out my time for reflection - in the evenings before sleep, first thing in the morning when the house is quiet, even zoning out the TV to write in my journal. The one thing I can guarantee is that I won't get the luxury of a 'day of reflection' on a Sunday regardless of what is and isn't open and I strongly suspect few mothers of school aged children do.
Your comment is, in effect useless. What you say may be true for your circumstances, but how many are in a similar position, or see it as you do? You can't know, so your argument is of no import in the discussion.
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
Of those, it's the debt bit that really gets at me! :(
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
Seems not, eh? Nor any dancers around trees, or moon-worshippers, either
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I've been thinking about this idea of a 'time for reflection'. Sunday was always Row Day when I was growing up - on Saturday we did stuff, separately or together, but on Sunday we were all stuck together and by tea time the cracks had become chasms and dinner was eaten in silence following a slanging match.
Time for reflection is just about impossible when stuck at home with a moody teenager or tetchy grandparent. Even now most Sundays for me are an endless round of uniform washing, homework supervision and hair washing interspersed with the odd bit of sport on the TV, but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment. We don't end up with stuff, but memories - gardening, walking the dog - but sometimes we need to get away and escape and that involves a degree of work - staff at the gardens, staff in the pub.
I carve out my time for reflection - in the evenings before sleep, first thing in the morning when the house is quiet, even zoning out the TV to write in my journal. The one thing I can guarantee is that I won't get the luxury of a 'day of reflection' on a Sunday regardless of what is and isn't open and I strongly suspect few mothers of school aged children do.
Your comment is, in effect useless. What you say may be true for your circumstances, but how many are in a similar position, or see it as you do? You can't know, so your argument is of no import in the discussion.
Hardly. Others have commented about how dreadful 'old style' Sundays were. It isn't healthy to force people into being stuck together and if everything closes and there is no transport and no leisure facilities open that is exactly what you are doing.
As for Sunday being hard graft for most mothers, go and ask a few. Believe it or not I know loads, and we are all in the same boat. Unless you have staff (and who does?) it is washing and sorting uniform and PE kit, homework etc etc.
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I've been thinking about this idea of a 'time for reflection'. Sunday was always Row Day when I was growing up - on Saturday we did stuff, separately or together, but on Sunday we were all stuck together and by tea time the cracks had become chasms and dinner was eaten in silence following a slanging match.
Time for reflection is just about impossible when stuck at home with a moody teenager or tetchy grandparent. Even now most Sundays for me are an endless round of uniform washing, homework supervision and hair washing interspersed with the odd bit of sport on the TV, but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment. We don't end up with stuff, but memories - gardening, walking the dog - but sometimes we need to get away and escape and that involves a degree of work - staff at the gardens, staff in the pub.
I carve out my time for reflection - in the evenings before sleep, first thing in the morning when the house is quiet, even zoning out the TV to write in my journal. The one thing I can guarantee is that I won't get the luxury of a 'day of reflection' on a Sunday regardless of what is and isn't open and I strongly suspect few mothers of school aged children do.
Your comment is, in effect useless. What you say may be true for your circumstances, but how many are in a similar position, or see it as you do? You can't know, so your argument is of no import in the discussion.
Hardly. Others have commented about how dreadful 'old style' Sundays were. It isn't healthy to force people into being stuck together and if everything closes and there is no transport and no leisure facilities open that is exactly what you are doing.
As for Sunday being hard graft for most mothers, go and ask a few. Believe it or not I know loads, and we are all in the same boat. Unless you have staff (and who does?) it is washing and sorting uniform and PE kit, homework etc etc.
Not everyone is a mother - I'm not!!! - and they won't all feel as you do anyway. And there is plenty to do on a Sunday, in all sorts of ways.
-
Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
Seems not, eh? Nor any dancers around trees, or moon-worshippers, either
Where are the pagans seeking to impose our 'rules' on the rest of society? Come to that, what are our rules?
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
yep......but as far as I can see it isn't the fat Christian pissheads on this board who are extolling the virtues of having more opportunity to indulge vices they have problems owning up to.( Bedroom cavalier antitheists take note).
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I've been thinking about this idea of a 'time for reflection'. Sunday was always Row Day when I was growing up - on Saturday we did stuff, separately or together, but on Sunday we were all stuck together and by tea time the cracks had become chasms and dinner was eaten in silence following a slanging match.
Time for reflection is just about impossible when stuck at home with a moody teenager or tetchy grandparent. Even now most Sundays for me are an endless round of uniform washing, homework supervision and hair washing interspersed with the odd bit of sport on the TV, but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment. We don't end up with stuff, but memories - gardening, walking the dog - but sometimes we need to get away and escape and that involves a degree of work - staff at the gardens, staff in the pub.
I carve out my time for reflection - in the evenings before sleep, first thing in the morning when the house is quiet, even zoning out the TV to write in my journal. The one thing I can guarantee is that I won't get the luxury of a 'day of reflection' on a Sunday regardless of what is and isn't open and I strongly suspect few mothers of school aged children do.
Your comment is, in effect useless. What you say may be true for your circumstances, but how many are in a similar position, or see it as you do? You can't know, so your argument is of no import in the discussion.
Hardly. Others have commented about how dreadful 'old style' Sundays were. It isn't healthy to force people into being stuck together and if everything closes and there is no transport and no leisure facilities open that is exactly what you are doing.
As for Sunday being hard graft for most mothers, go and ask a few. Believe it or not I know loads, and we are all in the same boat. Unless you have staff (and who does?) it is washing and sorting uniform and PE kit, homework etc etc.
Not everyone is a mother - I'm not!!! - and they won't all feel as you do anyway. And there is plenty to do on a Sunday, in all sorts of ways.
I'm not saying that everyone is. What I am saying is that this idea that we can all adopt one day as a 'national weekly holiday' as a 'time for reflection' is pie in the sky. There needs to be flexibility, that isn't dictated to us by any religion.
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Not everyone is a mother - I'm not!!! - and they won't all feel as you do anyway. And there is plenty to do on a Sunday, in all sorts of ways.
And not everyone has a family (if there's a word I never want to hear again, it's that one ...) or a family near enough to spend time with, so they won't all feel as you do anyway. Nice footbullet there.
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
Seems not, eh? Nor any dancers around trees, or moon-worshippers, either
Where are the pagans seeking to impose our 'rules' on the rest of society? Come to that, what are our rules?
If you are suggesting the Church is, that's inaccurate: they may be expressing a view, just as you are, but they could not conceivably impose their views. How? They accepted it when the present situation was applied; and anyway, it will be down to Local Authorities in the end, and hopefully they will gauge public opinion in their own areas.
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
yep......but as far as I can see it isn't the fat Christian pissheads on this board who are extolling the virtues of having more opportunity to indulge vices they have problems owning up to.( Bedroom cavalier antitheists take note).
Buying bread is a vice?
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
Seems not, eh? Nor any dancers around trees, or moon-worshippers, either
Where are the pagans seeking to impose our 'rules' on the rest of society? Come to that, what are our rules?
Pagans are just as likely to have swallowed the same right wing libertarian bollocks as the antitheists it seems.
When paganism was more hippy with mythologically appreciating overtones people were more locally,socially and environmentally oriented than the position you are portraying here. Similarly atheists were usually more geered towards the rights of workers rather than consumers.
I bet the next logical step. Making all work on a sunday will be met with consternation from many here.
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Not everyone is a mother - I'm not!!! - and they won't all feel as you do anyway. And there is plenty to do on a Sunday, in all sorts of ways.
And not everyone has a family (if there's a word I never want to hear again, it's that one ...) or a family near enough to spend time with, so they won't all feel as you do anyway. Nice footbullet there.
Not so. I have no near family, and none who care too much,either, as I have found out this day, my birthday. So my point is a general one.
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but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment.
I carve out my time for reflection
Thanks Rhiannon evidence that reflection and having time now involves the language of fighting and struggling. It shouldn't be like that.
I'm with Gonners in thinking that this is a bad situation to have got ourselves in and you just show how little choice there actually is when it comes to frenetic lifestyle...no matter how much some may bang on about having choice...Shaker, Gordon et al ( Al's the worst ).
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Happy birthday :)
The point is that if there's one word driven into the ground in this discussion it's 'family,' but it's not hard to see any number of exceptions, exemptions and objections to the point supposedly being made. Only yesterday afternoon (or evening, I forget which) Rhiannon did a lovely post about going shopping with her chilblains which seemed to me to be every bit as much family time as going for a picnic or playing Trivial Pursuit.
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Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
Seems not, eh? Nor any dancers around trees, or moon-worshippers, either
Where are the pagans seeking to impose our 'rules' on the rest of society? Come to that, what are our rules?
Pagans are just as likely to have swallowed the same right wing libertarian bollocks as the antitheists it seems.
When paganism was more hippy with mythologically appreciating overtones people were more locally,socially and environmentally oriented than the position you are portraying here. Similarly atheists were usually more geered towards the rights of workers rather than consumers.
I bet the next logical step. Making all work on a sunday will be met with consternation from many here.
No. Pagans take the view that we screw up, we pay. My 'position' is that I like to be able to choose whether or not to do my weekly shop early on a Sunday, that's all. I have to shop at some point and it'd be nice to have a choice. As I said earlier, the big malls having 24/7 opening is a different matter but I can't make peoples' moral choices for them and if that is how they want to spend their leisure time, that is their decision, however baffling I find it. But then the genie is well and truly out of the bottle as far as consumerism goes thanks to the Internet, and extending Sunday shopping hours or not will do nothing to put a brake on it. That can only come from within ourselves and the decisions we make. It can't be imposed by government.
-
Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
yep......but as far as I can see it isn't the fat Christian pissheads on this board who are extolling the virtues of having more opportunity to indulge vices they have problems owning up to.( Bedroom cavalier antitheists take note).
Buying bread is a vice?
Don't be ridiculous. A) No one is suggesting here a ban on bread B) Obesity and overspending is the problem. Not having bread on a sunday never will be.
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but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment.
I carve out my time for reflection
Thanks Rhiannon evidence that reflection and having time now involves the language of fighting and struggling. It shouldn't be like that.
I'm with Gonners in thinking that this is a bad situation to have got ourselves in and you just show how little choice there actually is when it comes to frenetic lifestyle...no matter how much some may bang on about having choice...Shaker, Gordon et al ( Al's the worst ).
But you want my day of reflection to be a Sunday and that is when I have to 'grab' time because it is a very busy day. You want it to be a day of leisure for me, coming and do my washing and supervise the homework.
Stopping Sunday trading isn't going to suddenly give us all a lovely day off.
-
Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
yep......but as far as I can see it isn't the fat Christian pissheads on this board who are extolling the virtues of having more opportunity to indulge vices they have problems owning up to.( Bedroom cavalier antitheists take note).
Buying bread is a vice?
Don't be ridiculous. A) No one is suggesting here a ban on bread B) Obesity and overspending is the problem. Not having bread on a sunday never will be.
But I'm not arguing for the right to be obese or spend too much, I'm arguing for the right to buy bread. And salad admittedly.
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Birthday blessings, BA. :)
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Does anybody want or need a full day of reflection? That would get a bit boring after not tremendously long, I'd have thought. I lead a fairly quiet life and like Rhiannon, reflect at various times - some fairly ordered, others spontaneous - throughout each day. I don't need to save it up for Sunday (why Sunday?) and cram it all into one day.
-
Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
yep......but as far as I can see it isn't the fat Christian pissheads on this board who are extolling the virtues of having more opportunity to indulge vices they have problems owning up to.( Bedroom cavalier antitheists take note).
Buying bread is a vice?
Don't be ridiculous. A) No one is suggesting here a ban on bread B) Obesity and overspending is the problem. Not having bread on a sunday never will be.
But I'm not arguing for the right to be obese or spend too much, I'm arguing for the right to buy bread. And salad admittedly.
Are you seriously suggesting you can't find a small shop-keeper to buy bread from on a Sunday? If you cant, get to the supermarket before 5.00pm, or buy it on Saturday!!
-
Dear Bashers,
Happy Birthday old friend, for your enlightenment and a bit of humour, in my local newspaper a 103 year old lady stated her secret to longevity, whisky and curry, going by her philosophy, I am bloody immortal 8)
Gonnagle.
-
but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment.
I carve out my time for reflection
Thanks Rhiannon evidence that reflection and having time now involves the language of fighting and struggling. It shouldn't be like that.
I'm with Gonners in thinking that this is a bad situation to have got ourselves in and you just show how little choice there actually is when it comes to frenetic lifestyle...no matter how much some may bang on about having choice...Shaker, Gordon et al ( Al's the worst ).
But you want my day of reflection to be a Sunday and that is when I have to 'grab' time because it is a very busy day. You want it to be a day of leisure for me, coming and do my washing and supervise the homework.
Stopping Sunday trading isn't going to suddenly give us all a lovely day off.
No I think I only want a national day. Pick our own and there is no social dimension or environmental gain. With Gonners I believe that too many are working at inhuman levels and I think we are now what we work at and what we spend rather than who we are.
I am all for it being a Tuesday....as long as Tuesday is then renamed sunday ;).
For your part you don't want it to be sunday because of purely irrational reasons...
an irrational fear of things being associated with Christianity.
-
Dear Bashers,
Happy Birthday old friend, for your enlightenment and a bit of humour, in my local newspaper a 103 year old lady stated her secret to longevity, whisky and curry, going by her philosophy, I am bloody immortal 8)
Gonnagle.
It may be too late for me, then! Thanks for that, Gonners: much appreciated.
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Does anybody want or need a full day of reflection? That would get a bit boring after not tremendously long, I'd have thought. I lead a fairly quiet life and like Rhiannon, reflect at various times - some fairly ordered, others spontaneous - throughout each day. I don't need to save it up for Sunday (why Sunday?) and cram it all into one day.
Yep, they do. They would also need to have, initially, help in finding out how to use there newly rediscovered freedom and ability for reflection and being and I guess that's why Churches and humanist Sunday Assemblies spring up.
-
Dear Bashers,
Happy Birthday old friend, for your enlightenment and a bit of humour, in my local newspaper a 103 year old lady stated her secret to longevity, whisky and curry, going by her philosophy, I am bloody immortal 8)
Gonnagle.
It may be too late for me, then! Thanks for that, Gonners: much appreciated.
happy Birthday Sir.
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Dear Vlad,
Do you ever get sick of being right ;)
Gonnagle.
-
Dear Bashers,
Happy Birthday old friend, for your enlightenment and a bit of humour, in my local newspaper a 103 year old lady stated her secret to longevity, whisky and curry, going by her philosophy, I am bloody immortal 8)
Gonnagle.
It may be too late for me, then! Thanks for that, Gonners: much appreciated.
happy Birthday Sir.
Thank you, very kind.
-
Does anybody want or need a full day of reflection? That would get a bit boring after not tremendously long, I'd have thought. I lead a fairly quiet life and like Rhiannon, reflect at various times - some fairly ordered, others spontaneous - throughout each day. I don't need to save it up for Sunday (why Sunday?) and cram it all into one day.
Yep, they do. They would also need to have, initially, help in finding out how to use there newly rediscovered freedom and ability for reflection and being and I guess that's why Churches and humanist Sunday Assemblies and atheist cabarets spring up.
On whose behalf are you speaking here?
Who have you asked/spoken to?
Why are you invoking the banner of freedom when you and your brigade are the ones trying to limit it?
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So you agree that food wastage is linked to having plenty
Yes
and more sunday trading means greater plenitude.
I don't think it means more wastage. With Sunday trading, for instance, I don't have to buy extra milk on Saturday only to misjudge it and see it go off.
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Does anybody want or need a full day of reflection? That would get a bit boring after not tremendously long, I'd have thought. I lead a fairly quiet life and like Rhiannon, reflect at various times - some fairly ordered, others spontaneous - throughout each day. I don't need to save it up for Sunday (why Sunday?) and cram it all into one day.
Yep, they do. They would also need to have, initially, help in finding out how to use there newly rediscovered freedom and ability for reflection and being and I guess that's why Churches and humanist Sunday Assemblies and atheist cabarets spring up.
On whose behalf are you speaking here?
Who have you asked/spoken to?
Why are you invoking the banner of freedom when you and your brigade are the ones trying to limit it?
I have edited atheist cabarets since, on reflection, they are just glorified rant shops.
In terms of Sunday Assemblies, they are I think fair centres which IMO would aid people to develop their reflective abilities.
The banner of freedom I am under is the freedom from 24/7 expectation to be part of the 24/7 machine which affects the whole infrastructure and social environment and homoncularises people and sets up a situation where you are what you work at and what and where you spend rather than who you are.
If I am not under the banner of freedom to do 4 hours more shopping I don't think I have lost anything worth having.
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Dear Prof,
My position as a Scot, Glaswegian, Brit, I want the weekend for family, community, leisure, I want one day where the world stops.
One day with no cars on the road, one day of silence.
Gonnagle.
All you have to do is not go out on a Sunday yourself. Nobody forces you to go shopping on Sunday and nobody forces you to go for a drive on a Sunday.
On the other hand, I don't think you should have the right to stop others from going shopping or for a drive if they so wish.
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So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
-
So you agree that food wastage is linked to having plenty
Yes
and more sunday trading means greater plenitude.
I don't think it means more wastage. With Sunday trading, for instance, I don't have to buy extra milk on Saturday only to misjudge it and see it go off.
But on a special sunday you would have time to turn it into Ice Cream.
-
Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
yep......but as far as I can see it isn't the fat Christian pissheads on this board who are extolling the virtues of having more opportunity to indulge vices they have problems owning up to.( Bedroom cavalier antitheists take note).
Buying bread is a vice?
Don't be ridiculous. A) No one is suggesting here a ban on bread B) Obesity and overspending is the problem. Not having bread on a sunday never will be.
But I'm not arguing for the right to be obese or spend too much, I'm arguing for the right to buy bread. And salad admittedly.
Are you seriously suggesting you can't find a small shop-keeper to buy bread from on a Sunday? If you cant, get to the supermarket before 5.00pm, or buy it on Saturday!!
I can buy manufactured white sliced. I can't get freshly baked bread as the baker doesn't open. I don't think anyone would argue that the stuff out of packets is a particularly healthy option.
If I buy on Saturday it usually has gone off by Sunday which, as Jeremy points out, is food waste.
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So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
Yes but isn't it the government's desire that we should save more and spend less?
And don't you think that if spending on non foodgoods was curtailed people would realise that they had shopoholism ''real bad''?
-
Dear Bashers,
Yes slightly tongue in cheek, but alcoholism is only one blight on the landscape, diabetes, obesity, debt, poverty, as I mentioned to your old pal Shaker, humans are stupid, we need rules.
Gonnagle.
So no Christian alcoholics, fat people, drug addicts, sex addicts, gamblers then.
yep......but as far as I can see it isn't the fat Christian pissheads on this board who are extolling the virtues of having more opportunity to indulge vices they have problems owning up to.( Bedroom cavalier antitheists take note).
Buying bread is a vice?
Don't be ridiculous. A) No one is suggesting here a ban on bread B) Obesity and overspending is the problem. Not having bread on a sunday never will be.
But I'm not arguing for the right to be obese or spend too much, I'm arguing for the right to buy bread. And salad admittedly.
Are you seriously suggesting you can't find a small shop-keeper to buy bread from on a Sunday? If you cant, get to the supermarket before 5.00pm, or buy it on Saturday!!
I can buy manufactured white sliced. I can't get freshly baked bread as the baker doesn't open. I don't think anyone would argue that the stuff out of packets is a particularly healthy option.
If I buy on Saturday it usually has gone off by Sunday which, as Jeremy points out, is food waste.
Eat cake!
-
but there are things we can go and do if we can grab a moment.
I carve out my time for reflection
Thanks Rhiannon evidence that reflection and having time now involves the language of fighting and struggling. It shouldn't be like that.
I'm with Gonners in thinking that this is a bad situation to have got ourselves in and you just show how little choice there actually is when it comes to frenetic lifestyle...no matter how much some may bang on about having choice...Shaker, Gordon et al ( Al's the worst ).
But you want my day of reflection to be a Sunday and that is when I have to 'grab' time because it is a very busy day. You want it to be a day of leisure for me, coming and do my washing and supervise the homework.
Stopping Sunday trading isn't going to suddenly give us all a lovely day off.
No I think I only want a national day. Pick our own and there is no social dimension or environmental gain. With Gonners I believe that too many are working at inhuman levels and I think we are now what we work at and what we spend rather than who we are.
I am all for it being a Tuesday....as long as Tuesday is then renamed sunday ;).
For your part you don't want it to be sunday because of purely irrational reasons...
an irrational fear of things being associated with Christianity.
Yes, there are all kinds of issues with work, but it was ever thus and we can't delude ourselves that Sundays in the past were full of apple-cheeked children gathered around the joanna for a sing-sing with their ma and pa. My grandparents worked all the hours God sent. My mother spent her weekends finishing work brought home from the office and cooking (she had my nan to do the uniform). I've yet to speak to anyone from other generations who found life anything other than hard work.
As for the rest, don't talk nonsense.
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I'm with Gonners in thinking that this is a bad situation to have got ourselves in and you just show how little choice there actually is when it comes to frenetic lifestyle...no matter how much some may bang on about having choice...Shaker, Gordon et al ( Al's the worst ).
Nobody makes you have a frenetic lifestyle except you.
You will not be forced to go shopping on Sundays with the extra hours. Can you get that through you thick skull into what passes for your brain?
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So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
Yes but isn't it the government's desire that we should save more and spend less?
And don't you think that if spending on non foodgoods was curtailed people would realise that they had shopoholism ''real bad''?
Ah, you want to help people by stopping them shopping. Nanny state, eh?
-
Vlad has waited years to be Marie Antoinette, he lives the crinoline and the hoops.
But which baker is selling you bread on a Saturday that is off on a Sunday? They must be incredibly bad.
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Shaker here - only 30 minutes to go - no sign of press gang in street waiting to drag me into Sainsbury and force me at gunpoint to buy a microwavable vegetable jalfrezi - will keep eyes peeled - so far so good - Shaker out.
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Does anybody want or need a full day of reflection?
It seems that some of the Christians do. It seems that without an enforced day of reflection they would be obese alcoholic bread junky slaves to rampant consumerism.
Some of us, on the other hand just want to be able to go to the supermarket for our milk at 9am.
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Does anybody want or need a full day of reflection? That would get a bit boring after not tremendously long, I'd have thought. I lead a fairly quiet life and like Rhiannon, reflect at various times - some fairly ordered, others spontaneous - throughout each day. I don't need to save it up for Sunday (why Sunday?) and cram it all into one day.
Agreed. I deliberately get up early so I get a coffee before anyone else is up. It's a twenty minute cuddle with the dog on the sofa before the day starts. Walking him is a time for reflection. I try to get to bed early so I get time to reflect before I fall asleep. But then life throws up things to reflect on - making soup, watching a bird, getting an unexpected gift, a hug from the kids, rainfall...why a special day?
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Dear Vlad,
Do you ever get sick of being right
How would Vlad know the answer to that question?
-
But on a special sunday you would have time to turn it into Ice Cream.
And so I would on a special Saturday or Wednesday if I wanted.
-
So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
Yes but isn't it the government's desire that we should save more and spend less?
And don't you think that if spending on non foodgoods was curtailed people would realise that they had shopoholism ''real bad''?
Ah, you want to help people by stopping them shopping. Nanny state, eh?
I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
In any case who said anything about stopping people shopping. It would be about
stopping a few selling a few items. If debt and overspending is a social problem, we bring in measures for social problems........ Make Cashpoints only give out tickets for national trust properties and funfairs on a sunday.
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But on a special sunday you would have time to turn it into Ice Cream.
And so I would on a special Saturday or Wednesday if I wanted.
There should always be some time available to make ice cream.
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I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
You do know you just lost the argument, right?
-
So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
Yes but isn't it the government's desire that we should save more and spend less?
And don't you think that if spending on non foodgoods was curtailed people would realise that they had shopoholism ''real bad''?
Ah, you want to help people by stopping them shopping. Nanny state, eh?
I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
In any case who said anything about stopping people shopping. It would be about
stopping a few selling a few items. If debt and overspending is a social problem, we bring in measures for social problems........ Make Cashpoints only give out tickets for national trust properties and funfairs on a sunday.
Are the National Trust shops allowed to open and what about the consumerist shit given out by funfairs as 'prizes'?
-
Shaker here - only 30 minutes to go - no sign of press gang in street waiting to drag me into Sainsbury and force me at gunpoint to buy a microwavable vegetable jalfrezi - will keep eyes peeled - so far so good - Shaker out.
Why don't you pass the last 20 minutes counting the Ocado vans go by.
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So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
Yes but isn't it the government's desire that we should save more and spend less?
And don't you think that if spending on non foodgoods was curtailed people would realise that they had shopoholism ''real bad''?
Ah, you want to help people by stopping them shopping. Nanny state, eh?
I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
In any case who said anything about stopping people shopping. It would be about
stopping a few selling a few items. If debt and overspending is a social problem, we bring in measures for social problems........ Make Cashpoints only give out tickets for national trust properties and funfairs on a sunday.
Are the National Trust shops allowed to open and what about the consumerist shit given out by funfairs as 'prizes'?
Yes of course as long as they are less than the regulation square footage.
-
I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
You do know you just lost the argument, right?
Oh yes? which argument is that?
-
So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
Yes but isn't it the government's desire that we should save more and spend less?
And don't you think that if spending on non foodgoods was curtailed people would realise that they had shopoholism ''real bad''?
Ah, you want to help people by stopping them shopping. Nanny state, eh?
I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
In any case who said anything about stopping people shopping. It would be about
stopping a few selling a few items. If debt and overspending is a social problem, we bring in measures for social problems........ Make Cashpoints only give out tickets for national trust properties and funfairs on a sunday.
Are the National Trust shops allowed to open and what about the consumerist shit given out by funfairs as 'prizes'?
Yes of course as long as they are less than the regulation square footage.
So it isn't consumerism you oppose -nothing like a William Morris-themed mug with a matching plastic sandwich tray and an overpriced keyring in the shape of a pair of wellies (Made in China). It's just consumerism in places that you disapprove of.
-
Ve hav vays of making you shop
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I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
You do know you just lost the argument, right?
Oh yes? which argument is that?
Your argument that you get to decide where and when people can shop. Invoking the Nazis establishes Godwin's Law and automatic loss of the argument. You can't argue with this. It's the Law.
-
So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
Yes but isn't it the government's desire that we should save more and spend less?
And don't you think that if spending on non foodgoods was curtailed people would realise that they had shopoholism ''real bad''?
Ah, you want to help people by stopping them shopping. Nanny state, eh?
I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
In any case who said anything about stopping people shopping. It would be about
stopping a few selling a few items. If debt and overspending is a social problem, we bring in measures for social problems........ Make Cashpoints only give out tickets for national trust properties and funfairs on a sunday.
Are the National Trust shops allowed to open and what about the consumerist shit given out by funfairs as 'prizes'?
Yes of course as long as they are less than the regulation square footage.
So it isn't consumerism you oppose -nothing like a William Morris-themed mug with a matching plastic sandwich tray and an overpriced keyring in the shape of a pair of wellies (Made in China). It's just consumerism in places that you disapprove of.
I've never heard of said mugs and keyrings suggested in the context of and in tandem with unbridled, economically significant consumerism before........is it a Keynesian or monetarist idea?
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I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
You do know you just lost the argument, right?
Oh yes? which argument is that?
Your argument that you get to decide where and when people can shop. Invoking the Nazis establishes Godwin's Law and automatic loss of the argument. You can't argue with this. It's the Law.
Vlad here......it's 15.55 and still the Godwin's law patrol hasn't arrived to arrest me for breaking his law.....I thought I saw a patrol vehicle at 15.54 but it was just an Ocado van.........Vlad out.
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About 5 minutes to go Shaky - so keep your head down: camouflage is essential, so make sure your tin hat doesn't reflect the sun.
Popping over to the bookies (had a few quid on the winner of the first at Perth), so might drop into Tesco about half-four: just because I can. :)
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Grrrrrr! ;D
-
Oh yes? which argument is that?
Yes I often ask the same question about your postings on R&E
-
Oh yes? which argument is that?
Yes I often ask the same question about your postings on R&E
Oh yes? which postings are they?
-
So Vlad's argument is that Sunday opening involves more spending and consumerism, therefore the government should ban it? I'm not sure how that works - the government should do what Vlad wants?
Yes but isn't it the government's desire that we should save more and spend less?
And don't you think that if spending on non foodgoods was curtailed people would realise that they had shopoholism ''real bad''?
Ah, you want to help people by stopping them shopping. Nanny state, eh?
I can imagine you in 1940 Wiggs ''Ah, you want to help people by stopping them getting overwhelmed by the Nazi beast.......Nanny State eh.
In any case who said anything about stopping people shopping. It would be about
stopping a few selling a few items. If debt and overspending is a social problem, we bring in measures for social problems........ Make Cashpoints only give out tickets for national trust properties and funfairs on a sunday.
Are the National Trust shops allowed to open and what about the consumerist shit given out by funfairs as 'prizes'?
Yes of course as long as they are less than the regulation square footage.
So it isn't consumerism you oppose -nothing like a William Morris-themed mug with a matching plastic sandwich tray and an overpriced keyring in the shape of a pair of wellies (Made in China). It's just consumerism in places that you disapprove of.
I've never heard of said mugs and keyrings suggested in the context of and in tandem with unbridled, economically significant consumerism before........is it a Keynesian or monetarist idea?
That's goalpost moving. What is the difference between me buying a mug from the NT and a mug from Tesco? True, the NT are a charity but not all the purchase price goes to a good cause and it's still consumerism - I want this mug so I'm going to buy it even if I don't need it. I'll soon get bored with the mug and want a new one, even if I don't need one, that's how consumerism works, especially when it comes to gift shops that sell stuff few people really need. And both mugs have the same impact on the environment and both shops have staff who aren't having their national weekly holiday.
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Dear Wigs,
Call it Nanny state if you want, but the simple fact is humans are stupid.
Mans greed.
Now I am just about to have my Sunday dinner, made by my neighbour, the ingredients were bought yesterday, no need to rush to the supermarket.
Gonnagle.
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Call it Nanny state if you want, but the simple fact is humans are stupid.
Mans greed.
speak for yourself.
-
Dear Wigs,
Call it Nanny state if you want, but the simple fact is humans are stupid.
Mans greed.
Now I am just about to have my Sunday dinner, made by my neighbour, the ingredients were bought yesterday, no need to rush to the supermarket.
Gonnagle.
I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
-
Dear Wigs,
Call it Nanny state if you want, but the simple fact is humans are stupid.
Mans greed.
Now I am just about to have my Sunday dinner, made by my neighbour, the ingredients were bought yesterday, no need to rush to the supermarket.
Gonnagle.
I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
Would the sky have fallen in waiting till ten?
On the other hand the environment changes at 9 if the whole consumerist juggernaut is humming at that time.
-
A day of reflection sounds fine, but will the date be determined by Vlad?
-
A day of reflection sounds fine, but will the date be determined by Vlad?
There's a good chance it won't so don't worry unduly.
-
Dear Wigs,
Call it Nanny state if you want, but the simple fact is humans are stupid.
Mans greed.
Now I am just about to have my Sunday dinner, made by my neighbour, the ingredients were bought yesterday, no need to rush to the supermarket.
Gonnagle.
I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
Would the sky have fallen in waiting till ten?
On the other hand the environment changes at 9 if the whole consumerist juggernaut is humming at that time.
It depends. What if I had something lovely planned to do with my family for ten, or that meant leaving at ten? What if the later start meant cutting the day short?
Besides, isn't consumerism consumerism at ten as well as nine? Why the difference?
-
Dear Wigs,
He gets my vote for Prime Minister.
Dear Rhiannon,
Sky falling in, not on me or you, but maybe your childrens children.
Sins of the Father :'(
Gonnagle.
-
A day of reflection sounds fine, but will the date be determined by Vlad?
There's a good chance it won't so don't worry unduly.
We can all rest easily, then.
Or go shopping instead, since it's all about choice innit ;)
-
Dear Wigs,
He gets my vote for Prime Minister.
Dear Rhiannon,
Sky falling in, not on me or you, but maybe your childrens children.
Sins of the Father :'(
Gonnagle.
Because I bought jacket spuds?
-
Dear Wigs,
He gets my vote for Prime Minister.
Dear Rhiannon,
Sky falling in, not on me or you, but maybe your childrens children.
Sins of the Father :'(
Gonnagle.
Because I bought jacket spuds?
I think we're losing sight of the really important issue in all this, which is: was it just butter, or was it grated cheese, or baked beans, or perhaps even sour cream with chives?
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Not in any shop with a floorspace greater than 280 sq.m. or 3000 sq. ft. Does that not, in its pointless arbitrariness, seem absurd?
-
I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Not in any shop with a floorspace greater than 280 sq.m. or 3000 sq. ft. Does that not, in its pointless arbitrariness, seem absurd?
And not locally. As said previously the convenience store (3 miles away) does little fresh fruit and veg and what there is, is rarely appetising.
I could, however, have bought manufactured frozen oven chips in little packets from the small shop. Much better for everyone. ???
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Dear Wigs,
He gets my vote for Prime Minister.
Dear Rhiannon,
Sky falling in, not on me or you, but maybe your childrens children.
Sins of the Father :'(
Gonnagle.
Because I bought jacket spuds?
I think we're losing sight of the really important issue in all this, which is: was it just butter, or was it grated cheese, or baked beans, or perhaps even sour cream with chives?
No meat though. But apparently my potatoes, salad and cheese are evilly unsustainable if bought today rather than yesterday.
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Dear Rhiannon,
You and Shaker should be on stage, your both awfully funny.
Gonnagle.
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Did you have meat with your Sunday dinner, Gonners?
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi.
At a higher price than at the supermarket.
Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Why the need to subsidise inferior versions of the supermarkets?
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Dear Rhiannon,
Roast beef, and no I am not immune from human greed or stupidity.
Gonnagle.
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At a higher price than at the supermarket.
At our local shop a bag of jacket pots is about 4p more expensive than at our nearest supermarket, which is about 3 miles away. So, when travelling costs are taken into account, costs are more or less the same.
Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Why the need to subsidise inferior versions of the supermarkets?
In a sense, I'd agree; why do we have to have a Tesco Extra that opens from 7am - 11pm 7 days a week which charges over the odds for several-day old 'fresh' food, and other stuff? Not only is the same stuff cheaper in the full-size supermarkets, its cheaper and better quality in the local independent green-grocer and butcher's.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Roast beef, and no I am not immune from human greed or stupidity.
Gonnagle.
So probably best not to point the finger at my 'sinfulness' for wanting to accommodate my family's vegetarian diet by sometimes shopping on a Sunday then. It doesn't make it better because you purchased it yesterday. There's nothing magic about avoiding buying stuff on Sundays.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/21/giving-up-beef-reduce-carbon-footprint-more-than-cars
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There's nothing magic about avoiding buying stuff on Sundays.
Yes there is - he that nippeth into Morrisons of a Sunday afternoon shall be sore afflicted with a plague of haemorrhoids, halitosis, athlete's foot and right minging scurf, yea I say unto you, even unto the tenth generation. Their sin shall be upon them.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Who the hell is pointing the finger at you!!
If you want to have a go at me for eating meat you will get no argument.
I am pointing the finger at government and their sticking plaster approach to employment, economy and above all the mental welfare of society.
Money rules OK!!
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Who the hell is pointing the finger at you!!
If you want to have a go at me for eating meat you will get no argument.
I am pointing the finger at government and their sticking plaster approach to employment, economy and above all the mental welfare of society.
Money rules OK!!
Gonnagle.
No, I have no desire to have a go at you for eating meat - we all misjudge things. But you very much do look like you are pointing the finger at me - sins of the fathers in a post referring to my children and in response to me talking about shopping on a Sunday?
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Dear Rhiannon,
Not your children, all children, and sins of the father is reference to what we leave our children, just like we are suffering for the sins of our fathers, climate change, a back lash for supplying guns instead of books, education, welfare .
Deep breathe Rhiannon.
Gonnagle.
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But why does me buying my veg on a Sunday make you weep? Why does it signify some kind of moral lack if I'd like to do it an hour earlier? Shopping for food on a Sunday isn't immoral unless all shopping for food is.
If you want to challenge consumerism how about starting with Vlad's idea that buying overpriced tourist tat from the National Trust isn't rampant consumerism but buying cheap tat from a supermarket is?
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Dear Rhiannon,
What makes me weep is you missing my point or the point.
Opening times whether it is Sunday or Monday is not the point.
24/7 consumerism is the point, having your fresh veg in tails so many man hours, needless man hours, so that you can enjoy fresh veg and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Gonnagle.
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At a higher price than at the supermarket.
At our local shop a bag of jacket pots is about 4p more expensive than at our nearest supermarket, which is about 3 miles away. So, when travelling costs are taken into account, costs are more or less the same.
Yes because everybody always buys one thing at a time when they go to the shops and everybody lives three miles closer to your local shop than they do to a supermarket.
On no, wait, that's completely not true.
its cheaper and better quality in the local independent green-grocer and butcher's.
Why do they have anything to fear from longer opening hours for supermarkets then?
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Dear Rhiannon,
What makes me weep is you missing my point or the point.
Opening times whether it is Sunday or Monday is not the point.
24/7 consumerism is the point, having your fresh veg in tails so many man hours, needless man hours, so that you can enjoy fresh veg and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Gonnagle.
Why? I don't want to shop in the evenings, let alone the middle of the night. What makes you think I do? But in my current circumstances I can't grow my own stuff so if I'm going to give my kids a healthy diet then buying it in it is. Meanwhile, perhaps you'll tell the people earning their wages during those 'pointless' hours that they shouldn't have a job.
I'd like a 24 hr pharmacy/chemist for emergencies admittedly.
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Opening times whether it is Sunday or Monday is not the point.
As far as this thread is concerned, that is the point.
24/7 consumerism is the point
No it isn't, not on this thread. I once went into my local Morrisons at 2am (it's open 24x6) and I was appalled by the rampant 24x6 consumerism... oh no wait, I was practically the only person in there. This rampant 24x7 consumerism that you and your ilk are bringing up is a chimera. It's a bogey man designed to scare us into shutting the shops down.
You already have unrestricted shop hours in Scotland. Do you think the consumerism is any more rampant there than it is here in England? Or is it just the English who are uncontrollable in the face of a BOGOF and need to have their shops taken away?
, having your fresh veg in tails so many man hours, needless man hours, so that you can enjoy fresh veg and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
I think I'll have my fresh veg in a bag please, not tails. And I expect to get more than just the tip when I buy lettuce. In the meantime, think of all those sinful jobs that are generated by people's decadent desires for fresh vegetables.
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He's on fire tonight, is Jezza.
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24/7 consumerism exists via the Internet. Sunday trading in the shops, 24/7 trading in the shops or closing down every supermarket and having a butcher, a baker and a grocer on every other street won't change that.
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Dear Shaker,
Aye he is a angry man, did I touch a nerve or was it my poor grammar, and maybe he should read back at my posts.
Nevermind, the wee bloke who is paid pennies in a far flung part of the empire so that Rhiannon can have her fresh veg is very thankful.
Dear Rhiannon,
Aye and your internet shopping also comes at a human cost.
Gonnagle.
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My internet shopping? I'm not condoning it, just pointing out the genie is well and truly out of the bottle.
And how dare you assume I don't read every label and buy local, fairtrade, British grown or at worst European produce? I even treat my kids to lectures about why we don't buy corn from Senegal and asparagus from Peru on our way round.
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Dear Shaker,
Aye he is a angry man,
Only because you keep trying to tell us what we should or shouldn't want and you keep making up stories about the collapse of civilisation to do it.
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Dear Shaker,
Aye he is a angry man,
Only because you keep trying to tell us what we should or shouldn't want and you keep making up stories about the collapse of civilisation to do it.
Not to mention making up assumptions about how nasty we are and then pretending we're the irrational ones in order to justify it.
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Mrs G just back from Tesco, and I asked her before going to check just how busy it was this evening. She reports that it is moderately busy and that the car park is about 2/3 full and that there seem to be the usual mix of shoppers doing nothing more unusual than 'shopping'.
That this is so on a Sunday evening, albeit that this is routine here, suggests that enough people in this small corner of civilisation don't see a problem with it - and if there are those that do, then they are perfectly free to avoid such places as Tesco whenever they want to.
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So the wee bloke who is paid pennies, we solve his problems by buying nothing and he getting no pennies (even though he might be a she)?
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So the wee bloke who is paid pennies, we solve his problems by buying nothing and he getting no pennies (even though he might be a she)?
Well that's the problem isn't it? I know the Kenyan rose growers didn't want their roses boycotted even though they got paid a pittance in bad conditions because it was better than what they had before.
I still couldn't bring myself to buy them though.
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Dear Rhiannon,
You are taking it personally, again!!
Gonnagle.
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Gonners, if you don't want me to take it personally don't use my name in the argument you are making, especially in the way you just used it.
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Dear Sane,
The wee bloke is a generalisation and you know it and if you can prove to me that all supermarket goods are fair trade I will quietly sneak away with my tail between my legs.
Dear Rhiannon,
Fair enough.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sane,
The wee bloke is a generalisation and you know it and if you can prove to me that all supermarket goods are fair trade I will quietly sneak away with my tail between my legs.
Dear Rhiannon,
Fair enough.
Gonnagle.
Does it matter? You are the one campaigning to stop him getting any money. What about longer supermarket opening makes him her worse off (since that is the case you appeared to be making)?
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Dear Gordon,
The carpark was moderately full, and Mrs G used the car.
Diesel, petrol, or maybe you have one of those gas conversions.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sane,
Nope, I am campaigning for a better way of life, and that one day of quiet reflection could be used to think how we can best help our exploited brothers oh! And sisters.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sane,
And it was your good self who made the comment about gender.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sane,
And it was your good self who made the comment about gender.
Gonnagle.
No, it wasn't. It was you writing about a wee bloke and he.
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Dear Sane,
Fair enough.
Dear Gordon,
Did your good lady notice the state of the roads as she drove to tesco, maybe she was slightly peeved at being stuck behind a artic, bloody smelly diesel guzzlers those things.
Never mind eh!!
Anyway good night all, early start tomorrow, and if I upset anyone, it was not intentional.
Gonnagle.
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Wasn't able to post much yesterday as I was too busy doing all sorts of leisure stuff for me and the family.
Interesting having come back to this thread and seen the significant traffic yesterday that those who are most 'draconian' about thou shalt not in relation to enjoying a bit of Sunday shopping (BA, Vlad, Gonners) seem to have no compunction themselves about spending half the day posting on this thread. Surely sitting on a computer posting drivel to people you don't have any real relationship with is as bad if not worse than popping into a shop at 9am on a Sunday morning to pick up some essentials, so at to leave the rest of the day free to enjoy with family etc.
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Surely sitting on a computer posting drivel to people you don't have any real relationship with is as bad if not worse than popping into a shop at 9am on a Sunday morning to pick up some essentials, so at to leave the rest of the day free to enjoy with family etc.
But popping into a shop at 9am on a Sunday morning isn't the issue, PD. It's which shop, and whether that extended opening will help or hinder the economy.
Was listening to a programme yesterday (Radio 4?) where someone being interviewed on this subject pointed out that extended opening hours will probably not see any more money being spent overall, rather the nation's weekly expenditure will simply be spread over a a few more hours. They couldn't see how this would help the economy, but suggested that it might increase domestic debt from its present level of about £1trillion.
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"Probably," "suggested" and "might" seems a flimsy basis on which to deny people's free choices. The "debate"-which-wasn't about equal marriage springs to mind once more; we had all sorts crawl out of the woodwork then suggesting what they thought probably might happen if the gays got married. Didn't stop that, won't stop this either.
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All the shops were shut yesterday where I am ATM.
The UK seems unique in that it is even thinking of Sunday opening let alone trading as normal.
Only the cafes/restaurants were open here.
The banks and shops are shut at 3pm in the week and don't reopen in the evening.
I think the UK is trying to be more in line with the USA because much of Europe isn't like it. ( well the bits I've been too, off the touristy bits)
Well lets first mail the 'UK' bit here. In Scotland there are no restrictions to larger shops opening more than 6 hours on a Sunday, so you are really talking about England, Wales and NI here, not the UK.
And we are talking about legal restrictions on opening. So rather than being unique in looking to ease restrictions the UK is fairly unusual in having such restrictions. So even just in Europe there are no restrictions to Sunday opening in:
Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Ireland, Italy, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden - just as examples.
Whether or not the shops choose to open is a different matter, the issue here is whether they should be allowed to if the want to and have staff happy to work.
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Surely sitting on a computer posting drivel to people you don't have any real relationship with is as bad if not worse than popping into a shop at 9am on a Sunday morning to pick up some essentials, so at to leave the rest of the day free to enjoy with family etc.
But popping into a shop at 9am on a Sunday morning isn't the issue, PD. It's which shop, and whether that extended opening will help or hinder the economy.
Why on earth should I be restricted as to which shop I can buy stuff in at 9am on a Sunday. If there are shops that want to open, there are people happy to work those hours and people who want to shop why should that be prevented?
Was listening to a programme yesterday (Radio 4?) where someone being interviewed on this subject pointed out that extended opening hours will probably not see any more money being spent overall, rather the nation's weekly expenditure will simply be spread over a a few more hours. They couldn't see how this would help the economy, but suggested that it might increase domestic debt from its present level of about £1trillion.
Well that is a matter of opinion and one not accepted by others who think there will be a boost to the economy. But I think you are also seeing things in rather narrow terms. Even if there wasn't a greater footfall the big shops would need to be employing people in the extended hours which would provide additional jibs, additional money in people's pockets to also spend. So that might also boost the economy.
But the fundamental point here is about restriction rather than choice. If a business finds there is no business advantage to opening longer on a Sunday they will probably decide not to do so (just as many shops already do for Sunday). But that is their choice and their business decision. Currently they are banned from doing so even if there was a good business argument for them opening longer.
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extended opening hours will probably not see any more money being spent overall, rather the nation's weekly expenditure will simply be spread over a a few more hours. They couldn't see how this would help the economy, but suggested that it might increase domestic debt from its present level of about £1trillion.
Bit confused here aren't you Hope. If there is no more spending why on earth would domestic debt go up. You can't have it both ways.
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Bit confused here aren't you Hope. If there is no more spending why on earth would domestic debt go up. You can't have it both ways.
Simply reporting what this person said. I also queried the comment.
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So even just in Europe there are no restrictions to Sunday opening in:
Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Ireland, Italy, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden - just as examples.
Might be worth looking at the political history of 11 of these - all ex-Warsaw Pact countries. How many of the old 'Western European' countries have some form of restriction? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_shopping#Europe
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What's that got to do with it? How do you explain the other six?
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It's interesting that in Ireland, generally a country characterised by its Christianity, that the shops are allowed to open pretty much as they please and have done for years. Tesco open 24/7 and most shops in Dublin open on Sundays.
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Strangely, Sunday opening is a condition of the new Greek bailout. Someone must have plans to make money from it - I suspect it will probably to be transferred directly from Greece to Germany - which mostly doesn't have Sunday opening ???
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It's interesting that in Ireland, generally a country characterised by its Christianity ...
Not any more ;)
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So even just in Europe there are no restrictions to Sunday opening in:
Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Ireland, Italy, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden - just as examples.
Might be worth looking at the political history of 11 of these - all ex-Warsaw Pact countries. How many of the old 'Western European' countries have some form of restriction? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_shopping#Europe
So what?
Again I ask (and I have yet to have a coherent rebuttal) - if a shop wants to open longer hours on a Sunday and there are people happy to work those hours and people who would prefer to shop at that time (for whatever reason) why on earth should they be prevented from doing so.
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You haven't had an answer because there isn't one.
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You haven't had an answer because there isn't one.
Yes there is.
I don't like Sunday opening for all shops, because it changes the nature of a peaceful Sunday.
Which was traditional in this country at one time.
How does something that you don't have to do and doesn't affect or impinge upon you in any way unless you freely choose to let it change the nature of your Sunday?
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Blimey we really are in the world of authoritarianism when the 'state' dictates that I can only by potatoes in certain types of 'state approved' shops at certain times.
I actually get quite angry at the notion that someone else should be dictating to me when and where I should be able to choose to shop.
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I don't like Sunday opening for all shops, because it changes the nature of a peaceful Sunday.
Then don't go shopping on a Sunday. I'm sure your garden wouldn't be any less peaceful at 6pm on a Sunday evening if the tesco a mile away was open.
But as with others, I trust there isn't any double standards going on here. I assume you don't just oppose people on the streets off to shop on a Sunday, but also on the streets off to church as well.
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Blimey we really are in the world of authoritarianism when the 'state' dictates that I can only by potatoes in certain types of 'state approved' shops at certain times.
I actually get quite angry at the notion that someone else should be dictating to me when and where I should be able to choose to shop.
So do I >:(
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Blimey we really are in the world of authoritarianism when the 'state' dictates that I can only by potatoes in certain types of 'state approved' shops at certain times.
I actually get quite angry at the notion that someone else should be dictating to me when and where I should be able to choose to s...
Don't lose sight of the fact that your cherished freedom to shop at all times is only being curtailed by a few hours in the whole week. It's not as though you are being deprived of some essential freedom, which is a danger to the democracy!
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Just echoing Prof. D. - some of this sounds like Big Brother. WTF - why should someone tell me when to shop, and where to shop? By the way, is it OK if I pop off to Waitrose just now?
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Blimey we really are in the world of authoritarianism when the 'state' dictates that I can only by potatoes in certain types of 'state approved' shops at certain times.
I actually get quite angry at the notion that someone else should be dictating to me when and where I should be able to choose to s
Don't lose sight of the fact that your cherished freedom to shop at all times is only being curtailed by a few hours in the whole week. It's not as though you are being deprived of some essential freedom, which is a danger to the democracy!
If those are the hours when I want or need to shop to fit around the rest of my life, then of course it is an imposition.
But I think this does hit to the heart of fundamental aspects of freedom - effectively why the state should prevent a situation where I want to shop, the shop wants to open and there are people who are happy to work those hours. I just don't think that is the kind of private interaction that the state has any business being involved in.
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Blimey we really are in the world of authoritarianism when the 'state' dictates that I can only by potatoes in certain types of 'state approved' shops at certain times.
I actually get quite angry at the notion that someone else should be dictating to me when and where I should be able to choose to s
Don't lose sight of the fact that your cherished freedom to shop at all times is only being curtailed by a few hours in the whole week. It's not as though you are being deprived of some essential freedom, which is a danger to the democracy!
If those are the hours when I want or need to shop to fit around the rest of my life, then of course it is an imposition.
But I think this does hit to the heart of fundamental aspects of freedom - effectively why the state should prevent a situation where I want to shop, the shop wants to open and there are people who are happy to work those hours. I just don't think that is the kind of private interaction that the state has any business being involved in.
In the scheme of things, and considering the problems and difficulties we can engage with, it's not that important - unless, of course, you are a small shop-keeper, whose livelihood is at stake!
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Blimey we really are in the world of authoritarianism when the 'state' dictates that I can only by potatoes in certain types of 'state approved' shops at certain times.
I actually get quite angry at the notion that someone else should be dictating to me when and where I should be able to choose to s
Don't lose sight of the fact that your cherished freedom to shop at all times is only being curtailed by a few hours in the whole week. It's not as though you are being deprived of some essential freedom, which is a danger to the democracy!
If those are the hours when I want or need to shop to fit around the rest of my life, then of course it is an imposition.
But I think this does hit to the heart of fundamental aspects of freedom - effectively why the state should prevent a situation where I want to shop, the shop wants to open and there are people who are happy to work those hours. I just don't think that is the kind of private interaction that the state has any business being involved in.
In the scheme of things, and considering the problems and difficulties we can engage with, it's trivial!!
Well if it is trivial get rid of the restrictions then. It isn't going to affect you because presumably who don't want to go shopping during those extended hours and no-one is going to force you. It will affect me in a small but positive manner, removing the not uncommon inconvenience and irritation of having to wait until mod morning for the shops to open or realising they are just about to close mid afternoon, which ends up with you having to fit the rest of your life around the shop opening hours, rather than the other way around.
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Blimey we really are in the world of authoritarianism when the 'state' dictates that I can only by potatoes in certain types of 'state approved' shops at certain times.
I actually get quite angry at the notion that someone else should be dictating to me when and where I should be able to choose to s
Don't lose sight of the fact that your cherished freedom to shop at all times is only being curtailed by a few hours in the whole week. It's not as though you are being deprived of some essential freedom, which is a danger to the democracy!
If those are the hours when I want or need to shop to fit around the rest of my life, then of course it is an imposition.
But I think this does hit to the heart of fundamental aspects of freedom - effectively why the state should prevent a situation where I want to shop, the shop wants to open and there are people who are happy to work those hours. I just don't think that is the kind of private interaction that the state has any business being involved in.
Nobody is stopping you from shopping, just saying give it a rest for half a dozen hours, or so, out of the entire week.
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You haven't had an answer because there isn't one.
Yes there is.
I don't like Sunday opening for all shops, because it changes the nature of a peaceful Sunday.
Which was traditional in this country at one time.
How does something that you don't have to do and doesn't affect or impinge upon you in any way unless you freely choose to let it change the nature of your Sunday?
Well firstly I don't agree it doesn't affect or impinge upon me in anyway, it does.
It ruins my peaceful Sunday for a start.
You can't move with the supermarkets and others opening now, traffic is queued up worse than it is on Saturday.
I have no choice about my Sunday being changed, its changed beyond recognition,now for a start I have to wait in queues of traffic because of shoppers. The minute I step outside my door I am aware of the noise and bustle created by shoppers the increase in traffic, the noise.
It's not peaceful or relaxing anymore.
It's full of people in their cars, passing my house in large numbers, on their way to the now open supermarket.
It impinges on me a lot actually.
Just because it is their choice, doesn't mean it doesn't impinge on me in any way.
Plus you also have the pressure from work to work Sunday's, and no matter what all of you say about people being willing to work on a Sunday, that isn't how it works.
Companies put pressure on their current workers to do it, that's because to employ more staff costs the company more in pensions etc.
So there is pressure to work on a Sunday, when you don't want to.
Companies assume you are prepared to and insist on changing your contract to include it, as the needs of the business.
So yes, Sunday opening affects everyone, including those who don't want it.
It's the environment you find yourself in as much as anything.
Not everyone lives in the country, where your peace is never disturbed by shoppers. Some of us have to face queues of traffic etc all brought about by shops being open on a Sunday.
It's so busy now on a Sunday at my local supermarket, it's worse than Saturday.
Maybe it would be less busy if people didn't have to squeeze their shopping into the current restricted hours?
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You haven't had an answer because there isn't one.
Yes there is.
I don't like Sunday opening for all shops, because it changes the nature of a peaceful Sunday.
Which was traditional in this country at one time.
How does something that you don't have to do and doesn't affect or impinge upon you in any way unless you freely choose to let it change the nature of your Sunday?
Well firstly I don't agree it doesn't affect or impinge upon me in anyway, it does.
It ruins my peaceful Sunday for a start.
You can't move with the supermarkets and others opening now, traffic is queued up worse than it is on Saturday.
I have no choice about my Sunday being changed, its changed beyond recognition,now for a start I have to wait in queues of traffic because of shoppers. The minute I step outside my door I am aware of the noise and bustle created by shoppers the increase in traffic, the noise.
It's not peaceful or relaxing anymore.
It's full of people in their cars, passing my house in large numbers, on their way to the now open supermarket.
It impinges on me a lot actually.
Just because it is their choice, doesn't mean it doesn't impinge on me in any way.
Plus you also have the pressure from work to work Sunday's, and no matter what all of you say about people being willing to work on a Sunday, that isn't how it works.
Companies put pressure on their current workers to do it, that's because to employ more staff costs the company more in pensions etc.
So there is pressure to work on a Sunday, when you don't want to.
Companies assume you are prepared to and insist on changing your contract to include it, as the needs of the business.
So yes, Sunday opening affects everyone, including those who don't want it.
It's the environment you find yourself in as much as anything.
Not everyone lives in the country, where your peace is never disturbed by shoppers. Some of us have to face queues of traffic etc all brought about by shops being open on a Sunday.
It's so busy now on a Sunday at my local supermarket, it's worse than Saturday.
And is it beyond your comprehension to understand that the mad rush on a Sunday and consequential traffic queues etc is actually due to the restricted opening as everyone needs to ram in their shop between 10 and 4. Extend the opening to 8-8 (for example) and you smooth out the density of shoppers and traffic flow etc.
And I note you have evaded my question on church-goers. So what about people living near a church where there is a block of traffic congestion and parking nightmares around the time of Sunday services. The churches near me have no meaningful off street parking and church-goers park in busy residential streets. Leave the house at the wrong time and you can guarantee you won't get a parking space when you get back.
So why is the disruption of a supermarket so unacceptable but of a church acceptable. Sounds like double standards to me.
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Why not just leave it as it is 10am - 4pm on Sunday's?
Because sometimes that's a real pain. Particularly when you want to spend the day on Sunday doing something rather more pleasurable than shopping, but need a bit of shopping and you effectively end up not getting going until 11am or need to be back by 3pm.
I want the necessary 'evil' of shopping to fit around my life, not the other way around.
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I'm just going to cook ours, also bought yesterday. But would the sky really have fallen in if I'd bought the jacket potatoes at 9 am this morning rather than at 10 am as I am legally entitled to? Would that really make me some kind of greedy consumerist monster?
You could quite legitimately have bought them at 9am this morning as the law stands, Rhi. Why the need to extend the opening hours of the large players?
Blimey we really are in the world of authoritarianism when the 'state' dictates that I can only by potatoes in certain types of 'state approved' shops at certain times.
I actually get quite angry at the notion that someone else should be dictating to me when and where I should be able to choose to s
Don't lose sight of the fact that your cherished freedom to shop at all times is only being curtailed by a few hours in the whole week. It's not as though you are being deprived of some essential freedom, which is a danger to the democracy!
If those are the hours when I want or need to shop to fit around the rest of my life, then of course it is an imposition.
But I think this does hit to the heart of fundamental aspects of freedom - effectively why the state should prevent a situation where I want to shop, the shop wants to open and there are people who are happy to work those hours. I just don't think that is the kind of private interaction that the state has any business being involved in.
Nobody is stopping you from shopping, just saying give it a rest for half a dozen hours, or so, out of the entire week.
It's easy to naively think in that way, but for busy families with both parents working it doesn't pan out like that.
So shopping Monday- Friday - nope that's out because we are at work. Saturday if often stupidly busy with family stuff - kids to clubs, parties etc etc. So it isn't uncommon at all that the only possible day is Sunday, and then you have to cram it into the restricted opening hours in the middle of the day.
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You haven't had an answer because there isn't one.
Yes there is.
I don't like Sunday opening for all shops, because it changes the nature of a peaceful Sunday.
Which was traditional in this country at one time.
How does something that you don't have to do and doesn't affect or impinge upon you in any way unless you freely choose to let it change the nature of your Sunday?
Well firstly I don't agree it doesn't affect or impinge upon me in anyway, it does.
It ruins my peaceful Sunday for a start.
You can't move with the supermarkets and others opening now, traffic is queued up worse than it is on Saturday.
I have no choice about my Sunday being changed, its changed beyond recognition,now for a start I have to wait in queues of traffic because of shoppers. The minute I step outside my door I am aware of the noise and bustle created by shoppers the increase in traffic, the noise.
It's not peaceful or relaxing anymore.
It's full of people in their cars, passing my house in large numbers, on their way to the now open supermarket.
It impinges on me a lot actually.
Just because it is their choice, doesn't mean it doesn't impinge on me in any way.
Plus you also have the pressure from work to work Sunday's, and no matter what all of you say about people being willing to work on a Sunday, that isn't how it works.
Companies put pressure on their current workers to do it, that's because to employ more staff costs the company more in pensions etc.
So there is pressure to work on a Sunday, when you don't want to.
Companies assume you are prepared to and insist on changing your contract to include it, as the needs of the business.
So yes, Sunday opening affects everyone, including those who don't want it.
It's the environment you find yourself in as much as anything.
Not everyone lives in the country, where your peace is never disturbed by shoppers. Some of us have to face queues of traffic etc all brought about by shops being open on a Sunday.
It's so busy now on a Sunday at my local supermarket, it's worse than Saturday.
And is it beyond your comprehension to understand that the mad rush on a Sunday and consequential traffic queues etc is actually due to the restricted opening as everyone needs to ram in their shop between 10 and 4. Extend the opening to 8-8 (for example) and you smooth out the density of shoppers and traffic flow etc.
And I note you have evaded my question on church-goers. So what about people living near a church where there is a block of traffic congestion and parking nightmares around the time of Sunday services. The churches near me have no meaningful off street parking and church-goers park in busy residential streets. Leave the house at the wrong time and you can guarantee you won't get a parking space when you get back.
So why is the disruption of a supermarket so unacceptable but of a church acceptable. Sounds like double standards to me.
Have you any evidence to support that assertion? In my experience people shop just as frantically eariier on a Saturday, and most days for that that matter. I generally shop later in the evening because it's so quiet.
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I generally shop later in the evening because it's so quiet.
But you can't do that on a Sunday, can you. Rather shot yourself in the foot there BA.
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I generally shop later in the evening because it's so quiet.
But you can't do that on a Sunday, can you. Rather shop yourself in the foot there BA.
Not at all, Prof. :) I make sure I get all I need on the other six days, and it ain't too difficult. If I do run out of anything late on Sunday, there are still shops available. What's the problem with a little respite from the angst of frantic super-market shopping?
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The problem is that you seek to dictate that respite to me. You do not allow me the freedom to choose for myself when or where to shop. And you have no logical reason for doing do beyond it being what you want.
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Dear Bashers,
Nothing, it's the Sunday thing, simple as that, we have shopping 24 hours a day but seemingly we need even more consumer time, Jeremyp says it all adds to what he calls "the shopping experience".
The Tories say jump and we ask how high.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Bashers,
Nothing, it's the Sunday thing, simple as that, we have shopping 24 hours a day but seemingly we need even more consumer time, Jeremyp says it all adds to what he calls "the shopping experience".
The Tories say jump and we ask how high.
Gonnagle.
Why are you fixated by the Tories.
This just happens to be a good idea.
I do not care who is in power, it's a good thing.
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You say don't shop on a Sunday and expect everyone to fall in line, Gonners. What's the difference?
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Dear Berational,
Eermm!! Yes I am slightly fixated on a party that is anti Christian, anti British and I am working up to placing the name murderer at their doorstep.
Dear Rhiannon,
Difference being that a large majority of British citizen don't follow me like sheep.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Berational,
Eermm!! Yes I am slightly fixated on a party that is anti Christian, anti British and I am working up to placing the name murderer at their doorstep.
Dear Rhiannon,
Difference being that a large majority of British citizen don't follow me like sheep.
Gonnagle.
But you expect everyone to view and treat Sunday as YOU want.
I do not expect you to treat Sunday how I want. You are free to use Sunday as you wish.
Why do you not want to extend that to everyone?
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And there you go, Gonners, judging us again. The unfounded assumptions that you are making are breathtaking.
By the way, next time you want to have a pop at Mrs G for driving to the shops consider that your beef eating is worse for climate change than driving a car.
I think Jesus said something about attending to your own plank first.
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The problem is that you seek to dictate that respite to me. You do not allow me the freedom to choose for myself when or where to shop. And you have no logical reason for doing do beyond it being what you want.
Exactly. BA seems clearly to understand the advantages and desirability of getting in and out of the shops first thing. Not just of course that it is often quieter, but also because it is less disruptive to the rest of the (hopefully much more interesting and enjoyable) things you want to do during the rest of the day.
And he is right in that regard, yet he can't seem to understand that for many of us we want that choice to shop when it is most convenient to us 7 days a week, not 6 days. And actually as a working person 5 of those 6 days are totally unavailable to me for shopping, so it isn't 1 day in 7, but 1 day in 2.
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The problem is that you seek to dictate that respite to me. You do not allow me the freedom to choose for myself when or where to shop. And you have no logical reason for doing do beyond it being what you want.
Exactly. BA seems clearly to understand the advantages and desirability of getting in and out of the shops first thing. Not just of course that it is often quieter, but also because it is less disruptive to the rest of the (hopefully much more interesting and enjoyable) things you want to do during the rest of the day.
And he is right in that regard, yet he can't seem to understand that for many of us we want that choice to shop when it is most convenient to us 7 days a week, not 6 days. And actually as a working person 5 of those 6 days are totally unavailable to me for shopping, so it isn't 1 day in 7, but 1 day in 2.
In addition I am not sure if this is the case, but BA may even be retired and be able to shop easily in the week.
I wonder if this is Gonnagle too?
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Dear Rhiannon,
I will now take a back seat on this thread.
Gonnagle.
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Ok, Gonners, and I will join you.
We are all of us very far from perfect. But wanting the right to shop on a Sunday does not make any of us selfish consumerist right- wing bastards. We're just ordinary people trying to do our best.
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Ok, Gonners, and I will join you.
We are all of us very far from perfect. But wanting the right to shop on a Sunday does not make any of us selfish consumerist right- wing bastards. We're just ordinary people trying to do our best.
I also think it's a bit rich for people who are retired and can get to the shops easily in the week, getting on their high horse at people who CANNOT easily get out in the week.
Perhaps all retired people should be banned from weekend shopping, or late night shopping in the week?
Of course I would not want to impinge on someone else's freedom.
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Ok, Gonners, and I will join you.
We are all of us very far from perfect. But wanting the right to shop on a Sunday does not make any of us selfish consumerist right- wing bastards. We're just ordinary people trying to do our best.
I also think it's a bit rich for people who are retired and can get to the shops easily in the week, getting on their high horse at people who CANNOT easily get out in the week.
Perhaps all retired people should be banned from weekend shopping, or late night shopping in the week?
Of course I would not want to impinge on someone else's freedom.
That's right.
Actually I think there are some people who have very little idea of the complexities of juggling working full time plus young kids and family life plus all the necessary evils of shopping, DIY etc etc.
This notion of 'well there are 6 other days you can shop' is non-sense. Actually in the past 3 weeks the only possible time I have been able to get to a shop opening 'standard hours', e.g 9-5:30 (Monday to Saturday, with late opening on Thursday) and 11-5 on Sunday was yesterday between 11 and 1. That's 2 hours out of a possible approx. 180 hours.
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Ok, Gonners, and I will join you.
We are all of us very far from perfect. But wanting the right to shop on a Sunday does not make any of us selfish consumerist right- wing bastards. We're just ordinary people trying to do our best.
I also think it's a bit rich for people who are retired and can get to the shops easily in the week, getting on their high horse at people who CANNOT easily get out in the week.
Perhaps all retired people should be banned from weekend shopping, or late night shopping in the week?
Of course I would not want to impinge on someone else's freedom.
That's right.
Actually I think there are some people who have very little idea of the complexities of juggling working full time plus young kids and family life plus all the necessary evils of shopping, DIY etc etc.
This notion of 'well there are 6 other days you can shop' is non-sense. Actually in the past 3 weeks the only possible time I have been able to get to a shop opening 'standard hours', e.g 9-5:30 (Monday to Saturday, with late opening on Thursday) and 11-5 on Sunday was yesterday between 11 and 1. That's 2 hours out of a possible approx. 180 hours.
Exactly.
For me, the shops could all shut Monday to Friday from 9:00 till 17:00.
They might as well be shut for all the good they are to me at those times!
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Ok, Gonners, and I will join you.
We are all of us very far from perfect. But wanting the right to shop on a Sunday does not make any of us selfish consumerist right- wing bastards. We're just ordinary people trying to do our best.
I also think it's a bit rich for people who are retired and can get to the shops easily in the week, getting on their high horse at people who CANNOT easily get out in the week.
Perhaps all retired people should be banned from weekend shopping, or late night shopping in the week?
Of course I would not want to impinge on someone else's freedom.
That's right.
Actually I think there are some people who have very little idea of the complexities of juggling working full time plus young kids and family life plus all the necessary evils of shopping, DIY etc etc.
This notion of 'well there are 6 other days you can shop' is non-sense. Actually in the past 3 weeks the only possible time I have been able to get to a shop opening 'standard hours', e.g 9-5:30 (Monday to Saturday, with late opening on Thursday) and 11-5 on Sunday was yesterday between 11 and 1. That's 2 hours out of a possible approx. 180 hours.
Exactly.
For me, the shops could all shut Monday to Friday from 9:00 till 17:00.
They might as well be shut for all the good they are to me at those times!
And also why as much shopping as possible is done on-line, which can be done at any time. But not everything can be reasonably bought on-line.
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The problem is that you seek to dictate that respite to me. You do not allow me the freedom to choose for myself when or where to shop. And you have no logical reason for doing do beyond it being what you want.
Post of the thread, surely (alongside most of the ones by Prof. D., admittedly).
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The problem is that you seek to dictate that respite to me. You do not allow me the freedom to choose for myself when or where to shop. And you have no logical reason for doing do beyond it being what you want.
Utter tosh!! You are doing exactly the same as you accuse me of!! You want it all your way, and blow the small shops who will suffer, blow the workers who may not want to work all day Sunday. It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday. And that goes for all the disingenuous posters of like mind on here. If you can't manage that, you are incompetent at organising your life. It may be noted that you can all find hours to post on here without any trouble, yes???
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
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The problem is that you seek to dictate that respite to me. You do not allow me the freedom to choose for myself when or where to shop. And you have no logical reason for doing do beyond it being what you want.
Exactly. BA seems clearly to understand the advantages and desirability of getting in and out of the shops first thing. Not just of course that it is often quieter, but also because it is less disruptive to the rest of the (hopefully much more interesting and enjoyable) things you want to do during the rest of the day.
And he is right in that regard, yet he can't seem to understand that for many of us we want that choice to shop when it is most convenient to us 7 days a week, not 6 days. And actually as a working person 5 of those 6 days are totally unavailable to me for shopping, so it isn't 1 day in 7, but 1 day in 2.
In addition I am not sure if this is the case, but BA may even be retired and be able to shop easily in the week.
I wonder if this is Gonnagle too?
There is seven day-a week shopping!! 24 hours a day for six days!! Plenty of mini markets, etc, open till late on Sunday!! If this is not enough, then you are just an incompetent organiser.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
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The problem is that you seek to dictate that respite to me. You do not allow me the freedom to choose for myself when or where to shop. And you have no logical reason for doing do beyond it being what you want.
Exactly. BA seems clearly to understand the advantages and desirability of getting in and out of the shops first thing. Not just of course that it is often quieter, but also because it is less disruptive to the rest of the (hopefully much more interesting and enjoyable) things you want to do during the rest of the day.
And he is right in that regard, yet he can't seem to understand that for many of us we want that choice to shop when it is most convenient to us 7 days a week, not 6 days. And actually as a working person 5 of those 6 days are totally unavailable to me for shopping, so it isn't 1 day in 7, but 1 day in 2.
In addition I am not sure if this is the case, but BA may even be retired and be able to shop easily in the week.
I wonder if this is Gonnagle too?
There is seven day-a week shopping!! 24 hours a day for six days!! Plenty of mini markets, etc, open till late on Sunday!! If this is not enough, then you are just an incompetent organiser.
Depends what you want to buy. I actually did do some shopping in those 2 hours. Bought a nice new pair of trousers and shirt and a garden bench (special kids size). Not sure there are many 24 hour mini markets that sell those BA, and wouldn't trust either of those purchases on-line.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something! 150 hours a week available at supermarkets, plus a further six or seven at smaller shops: just how much shopping do need to do? Your position is ludicrously over the top.
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He does something rather more important than climbing Everest, which has never been anything other than an exercise in egotism anyway; he has a job (in science) and he has kids to raise.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
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He does something rather more important than climbing Everest, which has never been anything other than an exercise in egotism anyway; he has a job (in science) and he has kids to raise.
I'll not take second best to anyone when it comes to hard work and hours put in. I did all that and more, and when there were less hours available than now: no 24-hour shops. I have never driven either, and I worked as long hours as the professor, and more; and I managed. I had to, so I found time. The real trouble is, people now just want it on a plate; everything nice and easy and cushy, and somebody else can make it work for them.
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Sure. That's the way it works.
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He does something rather more important than climbing Everest, which has never been anything other than an exercise in egotism anyway; he has a job (in science) and he has kids to raise.
I'll not take second best to anyone when it comes to hard work and hours put in. I did all that and more, and when there were less hours available than now: no 24-hour shops. I have never driven either, and I worked as long hours as the professor, and more; and I managed. I had to, so I found time. The real trouble is, people now just want it on a plate; everything nice and easy and cushy, and somebody else can make it work for them.
Get the violin out someone.
But I don't understand your point. You seem to be saying 'it was unnecessarily tough for me, so it needs to be unnecessarily tough for you' - that doesn't seem very reasonable. I don't want to just 'manage' I want unnecessary restrictions to be stripped away. Again (still no-one giving a cogent rebuttal) - if a shop wants to open, there are staff happy to work and people who want to shop during extended hours on a Sunday why one earth should that be prevented by law.
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Sure. That's the way it works.
Right: it's called, "self-centred."
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Sure. That's the way it works.
Right: it's called, "self-centred."
Excuse me - why is it self centred if (for the billionth time) a shop wants to open, there are staff happy to work and people who want to shop during extended hours on a Sunday to allow it to open. Who is being self centred - the willing shopper, the shop that wants to open or the willing shop worker?
The self centred approach is to try to prevent that from happening - to try to force others who would prefer to shop at a different time to you to have to fall in with your schedule, due to dogmatic reasons.
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Get the violin out someone.
My first thought too ;)
But I don't understand your point. You seem to be saying 'it was unnecessarily tough for me, so it needs to be unnecessarily tough for you' - that doesn't seem very reasonable.
... and that was the second. It's a common thing; a gripe (often, not exclusively but often) by the old against the young: I had things tough, and so should you. I suffered in some way, and you ought to suffer in the same way or at least in some way as well.
Which, given that suffering is by definition supposed to be a bad and unwelcome thing, seems to bespeak a degree of sadism.
I don't want to just 'manage' I want unnecessary restrictions to be stripped away. Again (still no-one giving a cogent rebuttal) - if a shop wants to open, there are staff happy to work and people who want to shop during extended hours on a Sunday why one earth should that be prevented by law.
There isn't a rebuttal. It doesn't exist.
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Does anybody else have the 'Four Yorkshiremen' sketch running through their head right now?
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Does anybody else have the 'Four Yorkshiremen' sketch running through their head right now?
No but what I do have in mind is which Shaker are we dealing with here? Is it Shaker one who, for reasons of purely wanting to stick one on the Christians, wants to keep Tuesday special or Shaker two who believes on pushing the envelope of human recuperation by having loads of people working while he plays with the added Bonus of sticking one on the Christians.....in other words ''The voice of ADHD Britain'' ?
As long as both of you you pay more taxes for the coming mental epidemic of all work and no rest Shakes I don't mind.
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It's starting to look like shopping is more of an addiction, which has to be fed on a 24hour seven days a week basis.
Spot on.
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No it isn't.
What it looks like is what it is and what it has always been, frankly. This is the top and tail of it. You have no right to dictate who buys what, where and when, and fuck you royally for even thinking of trying. You don't own me or control me, my life or my spending power, so piss off out of my way and my life.
On balance I feel that that covers it for the most part.
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There is a fairly basic point if one is a liberal here that just disliking something is not a reason to restrict the freedom of others.
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You have no point. In all senses of the term.
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You have no point. In all senses of the term.
Rose has. If there is no distinction of days it follows that you can be required to be available to work at anytime for however long. Mount a logical argument against that Shakers 1 and 2.
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Some of you are starting to sound ridiculous in your demand that the laws are changed to suit you, and how your rights are not met, all because the shops are not open for 24hrs, because you think you are entitled to it.
The need to shop outside the normal hours you have now, is excessive.
Plus a lot of you are in denial about the effects it has on other people around you.
just because you want something, refuse to see the impact it has on others ( or don't care) doesn't mean you should be entitled to get it.
its the " I want it, and I want it NOW! " attitude of a child.
That's what it reminds me of, children, having a footstomping episode.
No issues here in Scotland where we don't have this silly Sunday restriction: this just in, 'not many dead'!
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"to (sic) ignorant"?
What a gift.
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There is a fairly basic point if one is a liberal here that just disliking something is nit a reason to restrict the freedom of others.
Yes it is, because we all impact on each other.
A certain balance on both sides is needed, but I would have no trouble restricting my neighbours freedom should their activities impact too negatively on me for example.
No, not if you are actually a liberal with a small l. This isn't about a balance since actually in this case it is meaningless. The 'negative impact' currently being defined is it means things do not happen the way you like. Not that you cannot do the things you choose.
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You have no point. In all senses of the term.
Rose has. If there is no distinction of days it follows that you can be required to be available to work at anytime for however long. Mount a logical argument against that Shakers 1 and 2.
Why would I waste my time mounting a logical argument against something which in itself has absolutely no logical content whatever?
Why?
Why?
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"to (sic) ignorant"?
What a gift.
In your case, it's more of an infliction.
Yes, you always have been, here as elsewhere.
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At base, the I can't have the Sunday I want is the same argument as gay marriage will affect straight marriage argument. You allow people to act freely and don't place restrictions simply because you do not get your way. There is an assumption of proof of it being worse than just not what you want in order to restrict freedom of choice.
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Now, other philosophies, both political and moral are available, than liberalism but they need to defended as part of their overarching aim, rather than just I don't want this. Paternalism on this needs to be justified as to what the consequences are and there are bits of Gonnagle' s position looking at that but it's not being made very much here. Just telling people to organise better does not work unless you make a case of why they should.
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There is a fairly basic point if one is a liberal here that just disliking something is nit a reason to restrict the freedom of others.
Yes it is, because we all impact on each other.
A certain balance on both sides is needed, but I would have no trouble restricting my neighbours freedom should their activities impact too negatively on me for example.
No, not if you are actually a liberal with a small l. This isn't about a balance since actually in this case it is meaningless. The 'negative impact' currently being defined is it means things do not happen the way you like. Not that you cannot do the things you choose.
No we are talking about the law as it stands and proposed changes.
The negative impact is that some people here cannot shop for 24hours a day 7 days a week instead of the normal ( for England)24 hrs six days a week.
I am quite happy with the law as it stands now.
It is the others here who want to change the law, because things are not happening the way "they" would like.
No, the law as it actually stands is irrelevant to political or moral liberalism. Your argument is the same as was made against gay marriage.
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It is the others here who want to change the law, because things are not happening the way "they" would like.
In contrast to those, like you, who want to retain arrangements to suit what 'you' like - can you see the problem here?
You need to go beyond this and ask why the personal likes, or dislikes, of some people represent sufficient grounds to restrict others from doings things (like shopping) that aren't in themselves prohibited in a more general sense and, in fact, are otherwise routine - like visiting supermarkets when the need and/or inclination arises.
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At least try not to be so dim.
NS is making the (entirely valid) point (which I have had cause to make several times on this thread) that your "arguments" are of the same species as the kind of "arguments" mounted by similarly illiberal opponents of equal marriage.
Do you get it now?
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This is nothing like Gay marriage.
This is about opening shops for longer hours on a Sunday.
Gay marriage is about whole life choices.
One is something that only effects Sunday's, the other someone's whole life.
I don't think they are comparable Nearly Sane.
Although "some" here seem to think Sunday trading hours has the same impact on them.
It's an analogous argument. It isn't saying what you are arguing about shares all characteristics just the the argument does. Your position is that the change has to be justified and a statement that you do not want it to happen because it will affect you in some way you do not like is sufficient.
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That's what it reminds me of, children, having a footstomping episode.
It is exactly the reverse.
The shop wants to open extended hours, people are happy to work those extended hours, customers would prefer to shop during those extended hours. The shop opening extended hours has no effect on you whatsoever ... yet
"I say no you can't, you shan't, you shan't you shan't. And I'll keep stomping my foot until you realise you shan't, you shan't you shan't."
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I know why, I think it impacts on our traditional weekend and makes it less pleasant and for people who end up working in shops, it has a negative impact on family life.
As the law in England already has Sunday trading laws I think it is more up to those who want to change it, to defend their position with more than just them wanting it.
Sunday's have always been a bit different, with Sunday roasts and family having time to socialise together and share things.
Not everyone wants this, but I think it is a shame for those people who want to keep their Sunday's traditional.
Although people keep saying you still can, you can't if your work puts pressure on you to work as a normal day.
The problem is shops don't employ " just" those who want to work on a Sunday on a Sunday. It is cheaper for them to have a smaller " pool " of staff to draw from because it costs companies to employ more people.
I think it is a shame for those who want a traditional family Sunday to have it destroyed because some people can't shop when the stores are open 24hrs 6 days a week.
The amendment to the times is just another erosion of our family "Sunday ".
My reasons aren't really religious, I just think we need one day that is a bit different to all the other days and are a break for everyone.
This is a fallacious argument from tradition pure and simple and, as such, has no merit.
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I "get" that you can't actually think, or deal with the points I am making, but have to resort to straw men and stereotypes to deal with them.
Try sticking to the subject
I have done - consistently, throughout, just like Rhiannon, wigginhall and (especially) Professor Davey, all four of whom can think you into a cocked hat any day of any week.
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It is reality that things do change over time, which is why there are no longer men going around lighting gas-fueled streetlights each evening.
A more recent example, and on a subject close to my heart, was the removal of UK restrictions on gambling on Sundays a few years ago, so that for those that are interested there is now 'normal' horse racing with associated betting on every Sunday. Since then the remaining legal restriction that prevented horse racing on what Christians refer to as 'Good Friday', and which was obviously a religious restriction, has also been removed.
The point being that those who are uninterested in horse racing/gambling are free to avoid these activities without their preferences constraining those of us who are - and that they might disapprove is utterly irrelevant in relation to routine activities such as horse racing, gambling or shopping.
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The idea of the traditional family Sunday made me laugh - my mother as a child, wasn't allowed to play on a Sunday, or read anything frivolous, or make a noise, so she and her sisters had miserable Sundays.
Why don't we keep it like that?
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You have no point. In all senses of the term.
Rose has. If there is no distinction of days it follows that you can be required to be available to work at anytime for however long. Mount a logical argument against that Shakers 1 and 2.
Why would I waste my time mounting a logical argument
Yep, why break a habit of a lifetime?
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You have no point. In all senses of the term.
Rose has. If there is no distinction of days it follows that you can be required to be available to work at anytime for however long. Mount a logical argument against that Shakers 1 and 2.
Why would I waste my time mounting a logical argument
Yep, why break a habit of a lifetime?
Quote mining, like every dishonest, sleazy little shitbag there has ever been since the Web was invented. Why am I not amazed?
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I "get" that you can't actually think, or deal with the points I am making, but have to resort to straw men and stereotypes to deal with them.
Try sticking to the subject
I have done - consistently, throughout, just like Rhiannon, wigginhall and (especially) Professor Davey, all four of whom can think you into a cocked hat any day of any week.
Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back to when his mother was a girl .........and you, the guy who wants to keep Tuesday special AND keep no day special in a sort of schrodinger way.
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I know why, I think it impacts on our traditional weekend and makes it less pleasant and for people who end up working in shops, it has a negative impact on family life.
As the law in England already has Sunday trading laws I think it is more up to those who want to change it, to defend their position with more than just them wanting it.
Sunday's have always been a bit different, with Sunday roasts and family having time to socialise together and share things.
Not everyone wants this, but I think it is a shame for those people who want to keep their Sunday's traditional.
Although people keep saying you still can, you can't if your work puts pressure on you to work as a normal day.
The problem is shops don't employ " just" those who want to work on a Sunday on a Sunday. It is cheaper for them to have a smaller " pool " of staff to draw from because it costs companies to employ more people.
I think it is a shame for those who want a traditional family Sunday to have it destroyed because some people can't shop when the stores are open 24hrs 6 days a week.
The amendment to the times is just another erosion of our family "Sunday ".
My reasons aren't really religious, I just think we need one day that is a bit different to all the other days and are a break for everyone.
This is a fallacious argument from tradition pure and simple and, as such, has no merit.
Oh Mr atheist and the insistence that it should be any day but sunday because that would stick one on the Christians isn't fallacious.
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sleazy little shitbag
Do you mind?
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sleazy little shitbag
Do you mind?
Not in the slightest.
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Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back
Who would be so amazingly stupid as to say such a ridiculous thing?
not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on Sundays
Oh, it was you, on Saturday July 11th 2015 at 11:23:14am.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10566.msg537228#msg537228
http://goo.gl/h73sNo
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sleazy little shitbag
Shaker's lost his rag ;D
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Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back
Who would be so amazingly stupid as to say such a ridiculous thing?
not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on Sundays
Oh, it was you, on Sunday July 11th 2015 at 11:23:14am.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10566.msg537228#msg537228
Quote mine.
and as You said:
Quote mining, like every dishonest, sleazy little shitbag there has ever been since the Web was invented. Why am I not amazed?
[/quote]
In any case I mean the nineteen seventies, not the nineteen whenever his mother was a girl.
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I can provide the entire quote, Vlad old fruit. Here it is:
Yes, but you are pro the law, particularly when it ensures compliance from wayward religious.
To get your antitheistic, anti keep sunday special, anti, well, personnel, juices going.....not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on sundays........or to be fair have a referendum, but it would be more convenient to have sunday for national renewal.
You are a skimmer Shakes and a monomaniacal antitheist and I can't take your temporary conversion to unbridled capitalism, just because it sticks one on the theists, very seriously
I've even provided a screenshot of it ;)
It doesn't erase the fact that you said one thing on Saturday and have tried to say an entirely different thing on Monday. You've been fucking had, me old beauty, good and proper. Now suck it up and choke on it ;D
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I can provide the entire quote, Vlad old fruit. Here it is:
It doesn't erase the fact that you said one thing on Saturday and have tried to say an entirely different thing on Monday. You've been fucking had, me old beauty, good and proper. Now suck it up and choke on it
No, I merely said i'd turn the clock back........... but not as far as Wigginhall suggests I want to........sorry to piss on your bonfire.
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You've been caught out, old stick. Do yourself a favour and cough to it, because any further attempts to evade what everybody else can see is you being shown up for the mendacious little thrombosed haemorrhoid that you are will compund the felony.
We all know what you are, Vlad; now it's just a case of seeing what desperate barrel-bottom lengths you'll scrape to try to talk your way out of it.
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You've been caught out, old stick. Do yourself a favour and cough to it, because any further attempts to evade what everybody else can see is you being shown up for the mendacious little thrombosed haemorrhoid that you are will compund the felony.
We all know what you are, Vlad; now it's just a case of seeing what desperate barrel-bottom lengths you'll scrape to try to talk your way out of it.
You're just turd polishing now.
I've never retracted turning the clock back.
I never suggested that we should go back to the kind of sunday's experienced by Wigginhall's mother.
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You've been caught out, old stick. Do yourself a favour and cough to it, because any further attempts to evade what everybody else can see is you being shown up for the mendacious little thrombosed haemorrhoid that you are will compund the felony.
We all know what you are, Vlad; now it's just a case of seeing what desperate barrel-bottom lengths you'll scrape to try to talk your way out of it.
You're just turd polishing now.
I've never retracted turning the clock back.
No? What about at 10:23:02 this evening, i.e. thirty-four minutes ago?
Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back
If this is a straw man argument why did you say exactly this ("not only do I want to keep the law how it is I'd want to turn the clock back on Sundays") on Saturday July 11th 2015 at 11:23:14am?
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I never suggested that we should go back to the kind of sunday's experienced by Wigginhall's mother.
Nothing to do with wiggy or Mrs Wiggy senior; this is about you being caught out saying one thing and saying its opposite a few days later and squealing because you don't like it. Shall I repost the said posts and screenshot again for everybody to see when they sign in again tomorrow? Or will you just grow a pair between your legs of the same thing that's between your ears and admit you've been well and truly done up like a kipper?
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You've been caught out, old stick. Do yourself a favour and cough to it, because any further attempts to evade what everybody else can see is you being shown up for the mendacious little thrombosed haemorrhoid that you are will compund the felony.
We all know what you are, Vlad; now it's just a case of seeing what desperate barrel-bottom lengths you'll scrape to try to talk your way out of it.
You're just turd polishing now.
I've never retracted turning the clock back.
No? What about at 10:23:02 this evening, i.e. thirty-four minutes ago?
Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back
*
I never suggested that we should go back to the kind of sunday's experienced by Wigginhall's mother.
Nothing to do with wiggy or Mrs Wiggy senior; this is about you being caught out saying one thing and saying its opposite a few days later and squealing because you don't like it. Shall I repost the said posts and screenshot again for everybody to see when they sign in again tomorrow? Or will you just grow a pair between your legs of the same thing that's between your ears and admit you've been well and truly done up like a kipper?
Shaker....................... you are merely inviting people just to read what YOU have put rather than read the actual record.
In terms of ''screenshots'' I know you get a little excited when posting but isn't monitorial ejaculation just taking things a wee bit too far?
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Shaker....................... you are merely inviting people just to read what YOU have put rather than read the actual record.
I've provided the actual record, dim bulb, screen shots and all.
Still ... keep wriggling and writhing ... it's funny ;)
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I "get" that you can't actually think, or deal with the points I am making, but have to resort to straw men and stereotypes to deal with them.
Try sticking to the subject
I have done - consistently, throughout, just like Rhiannon, wigginhall and (especially) Professor Davey, all four of whom can think you into a cocked hat any day of any week.
Mere assertion, One of those has a ridiculously sentimental idea of ''willing workers'' and conjurs up a picture of people singing along to the sound of the tills ringing rather than it being mundane work at low wage, Another is using the straw man argument that we are trying to turn the clock back to when his mother was a girl .........and you, the guy who wants to keep Tuesday special AND keep no day special in a sort of schrodinger way.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
Are you retired or do you work?
I think all shops should be shut Monday to Friday from 9:00 till 17:00.
Then open from 17:01 to 08:59.
Would that bother you at all?
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
Are you retired or do you work?
I think all shops should be shut Monday to Friday from 9:00 till 17:00.
Then open from 17:01 to 08:59.
Would that bother you at all?
You seem to have developed a penchant for particularly silly posts; or maybe they've always been like that! :)
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
Not really - my life is pretty similar to many people I know - you know busy, busy working families.
57 days - no idea where you get that from - apparently (looking at the stats) I post on average about 3 posts a day. That sounds about right and each one takes, what 30 secs, and usually (as now posted) while on the move. Not much opportunity to shop (in a physical shop) while on a train. But plenty of opportunity to check out what's going on here and post a comment or two.
And back to the question that remains without cogent rebuttal. If a shop wants to open extended hours, there are people happy to work those hours and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours why on earth should that be prevented by law.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
Not really - my life is pretty similar to many people I know - you know busy, busy working families.
57 days - no idea where you get that from - apparently (looking at the stats) I post on average about 3 posts a day. That sounds about right and each one takes, what 30 secs, and usually (as now posted) while on the move. Not much opportunity to shop (in a physical shop) while on a train. But plenty of opportunity to check out what's going on here and post a comment or two.
And back to the question that remains without cogent rebuttal. If a shop wants to open extended hours, there are people happy to work those hours and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours why on earth should that be prevented by law.
just to note - BA averages over 10 posts per day, three times my output, despite his rather extended sabbaticals from this message board.
This is, of course a comment about quantity of posts, not, quality of posts ;)
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Wow. Thirty pages of posts. Reading them all is a whole segment of my life which I shall never experience again. Was it worth it?
Well, one thing it did was to re-awaken memories of an introductory course to political philosophy at university nearly half a century ago. The concept being considered was freedom, and the thoughts of one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th century, Sir Isiah Berlin.
Berlin described two concepts of freedom:
The two concepts are:
'negative freedom', or freedom from interference, which Berlin derived from the British tradition,
and
'positive freedom', or freedom as self-mastery, which asks not what we are free from, but what we are free to do.
Berlin points out that these two different conceptions of liberty can clash with each other.
(Wikipedia article on Isiah Berlin)
It seems that this encapsulates this discussion (with the exception of the abuse which some posters appear to believe strengthens their case).
The arguments in favour of extended shopping hours were made at an early stage of the thread as were appropriate rebuttals. All that has happened since is the entrenchment of these positions with "debate" becoming more hostile and nasty. Having said that, my perception is that the bulk of the nastiness comes from those supporting the negative freedom elements of the argument.
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For me the self-mastery element is very important, not because I want unbridled shopping, but because of the well-being I get from positively choosing to spend my time in the wisest way possible - which isn't usually shopping. It's actually very good for us to be able to say, I could do this, but I choose not to, and not just on Sundays. Arguably there are some things that are so hazardous to do that the state does have to put prohibitions on them, but shopping isn't one of them.
(apologies to Gonners for rejoining debate but couldn't resist HH's interesting point)
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57 days - no idea where you get that from - .
It's from the stats page.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=120
What that shows I think, is how long you are logged on to the forum.
Not necessarily a direct correlation to actually 'using' the forum.
Especially if like myself you never bother logging off, so just get timed out.
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57 days - no idea where you get that from - .
It's from the stats page.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=120
What that shows I think, is how long you are logged on to the forum.
Not necessarily a direct correlation to actually 'using' the forum.
Especially if like myself you never bother logging off, so just get timed out.
Ok I see.
Yes I also am automatically logged in and never log out so that kind of makes sense. But of course bears no relation to the actual time I spend on the boards.
To note 2 minute down time with a coffee between some panel meetings this morning. Not really available time for shopping!
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57 days - no idea where you get that from - .
It's from the stats page.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=120
What that shows I think, is how long you are logged on to the forum.
Not necessarily a direct correlation to actually 'using' the forum.
Especially if like myself you never bother logging off, so just get timed out.
Actually I don't think that is quite true - sadly I tested this once - it seems to be closer to any chunk of time you actively do something with a fifteen minute cut off - so if you are reading or paging through or writing - it takes the time and assumes you are active until any activity stops for 15 minutes. I left myself logged in continuously and made no activity and then looked at the time updates
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For me the self-mastery element is very important, not because I want unbridled shopping, but because of the well-being I get from positively choosing to spend my time in the wisest way possible - which isn't usually shopping. It's actually very good for us to be able to say, I could do this, but I choose not to, and not just on Sundays. Arguably there are some things that are so hazardous to do that the state does have to put prohibitions on them, but shopping isn't one of them.
(apologies to Gonners for rejoining debate but couldn't resist HH's interesting point)
That's a very good way of putting it. The point about extending opening hours is it better allows people to be the masters and shop opening hours to be the slave rather than the other way around.
And the notion that someone like me is somehow obsessed and addicted to shopping, as Rose posits, is probably the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. I am about as far away from being a shopaholic as it is possible to get. And that is actually the point - shopping to me is a necessary evil, rather than a leisure activity, hence the frustration when you need to unnecessarily plan the rest of your life around shop opening times (because of unnecessary restrictions on opening house) when that necessity of shopping is required.
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Oh and if you hide your posting it doesn't seem to update it
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Dearest me,
Well Rhiannons back in the hunt ( hunt, war ) so anyway.
All yer arguments for extended Sunday shopping are dribble, ProfDavey,two hour travelling time, theirs yer enemy, ten hours a week commuting, the Tories love you.
But that's okay, you have been brainwashed into thinking that is quite normal.
21st century folks, you should be working less and travelling less, you have no time to enjoy Jeremyp's shopping experience, what ever the hell that is.
But no, chase the pound sign, quick before it disappears.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Shaker,
Name dropping, the Wonderful ProfDavey, The Wiginhall ( saint that he is ) oh they are never wrong, boy Shaker yer worse than me for hero worship on this forum.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sane,
At base, the I can't have the Sunday I want is the same argument as gay marriage will affect straight marriage argument. You allow people to act freely and don't place restrictions simply because you do not get your way. There is an assumption of proof of it being worse than just not what you want in order to restrict freedom of choice.
Then we abolish the hours for buying yer booze, maybe we should have another debate on the harmful effects of booze, I am not to sure about this law, but this I do know, people can be very stupid.
Gonnagle.
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ProfDavey,two hour travelling time, theirs yer enemy, ten hours a week commuting, the Tories love you.
Again, pretty well standard if you work in London but want to be able to afford a decent house and also a rather better lifestyle for family/kids etc than would be possible in central London.
So which would you like me to do Gonners - give up my job and career or move my family into a house half the size with no garden etc. Do you see those choices as preferable to shops opening a bit longer if they want to, and have staff happy to work those hours and there are customers who would prefer to shop during those hours.
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Hey Shaker,
He does something rather more important than climbing Everest, which has never been anything other than an exercise in egotism anyway; he has a job (in science) and he has kids to raise.
I know a guy who collects refuse, and he has kids to raise.
Gonnagle.
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Then we abolish the hours for buying yer booze, maybe we should have another debate on the harmful effects of booze,
What is it about the exercise of free choice that bothers you so much?
I am not to sure about this law, but this I do know, people can be very stupid.
They can indeed. And unless stupidity negatively impacts upon others, if we respect people as means and not ends, as competent consenting adults, we have to let them.
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Dear Prof,
So which would you like me to do Gonners - give up my job and career or move my family into a house half the size with no garden etc. Do you see those choices as preferable to shops opening a bit longer if they want to, and have staff happy to work those hours and there are customers who would prefer to shop during those hours.
All I want for you Prof is happiness, but I also want it for the person who works in Tesco, I want less traffic on our roads, I would like the whole world to take a chill pill.
I would like Scotland to reverse their Sunday opening times so that our Sunday could be slightly more peaceful, instead of driving to the shops, you have a leisurely stroll to your local, say hello to your neighbour and know for ten minutes that you helped the planet in a very small way.
I would like our children to learn that they cannot have, even though it would take ten minutes to jump in the car and go and buy it.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Shaker,
They can indeed. And unless stupidity negatively impacts upon others, if we respect people as means and not ends, as competent consenting adults, we have to let them.
I have witnessed to many personally and on the telly abusing alcohol, if you another way of combating it, tell the NHS.
Gonnagle.
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And you judge that anyone who wants to buy food on a Sunday doesn't also do those things just because you don't want to buy food on a Sunday. Except I can't take my family to our local pub because it's for drinkers only. But I'm the antisocial one according to you because I but food to give to my children and have to go to a supermarket to do it.
You want? What gives you the right to expect me to do what you want? Why do you think you are infallible on what is 'right'?
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Dear Shaker,
They can indeed. And unless stupidity negatively impacts upon others, if we respect people as means and not ends, as competent consenting adults, we have to let them.
I have witnessed to many personally and on the telly abusing alcohol, if you another way of combating it, tell the NHS.
Gonnagle.
And yet you fail to notice the obscenity of likening alcohol abuse to families shopping.
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All I want for you Prof is happiness,
Thank you gonners, me too which is one of the reasons why I'd like little irritations and frustrations to be smoothed out, particularly when they are entirely unnecessary.[/quote]
but I also want it for the person who works in Tesco,
Yup me too - but why do you assume that the person working in Tesco on a Sunday is unhappy with that. They may well be very happy, firstly to have that job, secondly if there are extended hours to get a full day's work in on a Sunday if they are going to have it disrupted anyhow or thirdly just happy to work on a Sunday to free up a day in the week to do leisure activities when things are much quieter (e.g. go for a walk).
I want less traffic on our roads,
Yup me too. And that's why I cycle whenever I can and for the past 20-ish years we have run just one car in our household. But why does extending sunday opening hours necessarily mean more traffic. Actually I think it would smooth out the traffic as everyone who needs to shop isn't trying to ram it into the same six hours, but can spread it over 10.
[/quote]
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All I want for you Prof is happiness
No you don't. What you want is for the Prof. to go along with your concept of what you think his happiness ought to be based on your ideas, not his.
but I also want it for the person who works in Tesco
So does PD. He's said it often enough, you can't have missed it.
I want less traffic on our roads
Then you should be out there campaigning against human population growth and immigration. The volume of traffic on the roads relates to the number of people there are rather than two extra hours on a Sunday.
The last I heard, Scotland has a population of around 5 million-ish, I believe. If you think there's too much traffic on Scottish roads now, already, God help you if you ever come to England - especially the south-east.
I would like Scotland to reverse their Sunday opening times so that our Sunday could be slightly more peaceful
I would like Linsey Dawn McKenzie to show up on my doorstep with a crate of beer but that's more likely to happen than your scenario.
instead of driving to the shops, you have a leisurely stroll to your local, say hello to your neighbour and know for ten minutes that you helped the planet in a very small way.
In the name of sanity what's stopping you doing that already, man?
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The person I spoke to about this over the weekend opts to work Sundays. She likes both the busy-ness and the time and a half. She opted to have Sunday working in her contract. Others opt out.
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The person I spoke to about this over the weekend opts to work Sundays. She likes both the busy-ness and the time and a half. She opted to have Sunday working in her contract. Others opt out.
A friend of mine works for a major supermarket chain and often works weekends (including Sundays). His husband is a nurse and also has to work weekends. So they coordinate and get time off together during the week and are often to be found doing the things during the week that are busy and crowded at weekends and are usually the preserve of the retired. So today that means being at a cricket match.
They are also both scout leaders and coordinating their weekend working means it is much easier for them to take time off on during the week for scout camps, without having to take annual leave. Works for them.
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Bit of posting on the train on my way home.
Early exit from work - quick turn around and then down to sons end of term concert. Need to be there early as I will be on the door selling tickets and the. Doing refreshments at the interval. Wife will join us after taking daughter to cubs. Should all be back in The house by 9, but which time, guess what, the shops will be shut.
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Rules governing Sunday working for shop workers here.
https://www.gov.uk/sunday-working
Which appears to say that the people in Tesco have more protection in law around Sunday working than the bar and waiting staff in Gonner's local.
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Bit of posting on the train on my way home.
Early exit from work - quick turn around and then down to sons end of term concert. Need to be there early as I will be on the door selling tickets and the. Doing refreshments at the interval. Wife will join us after taking daughter to cubs. Should all be back in The house by 9, but which time, guess what, the shops will be shut.
When we're on holiday in the UK I book an on-line delivery from the nearest supermarket for the morning after we arrive. We usually take week-long breaks and never shop the whole time we are there. But most changeover days are Saturdays, so our delivery is guess when.
Trying to get the house ready for valuing later this week so getting pizza delivered from local independent Italian for tea. God I'm selfish.
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Dear Prof,
They coordinate, nice.
Let's try another tack, one day a week when we celebrate our humanity, sorry we have Shaker, Rhiannon and Bashers in the debate ( it is just a debate ) one day a week when we celebrate all living things.
Extended hours is going backwards, we need to go forward, morally, take the planet seriously.
Gonnagle.
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Why Sunday?
I don't want to consume more, I just want flexibility over when I buy what I already buy.
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Can I check why the person working in Tesco is not happy but the person working in your local, Gonzo, is?
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Football is another example of changing patterns of leisure activity. Now, I'm not a fan and I would generally go out of my way to avoid football, but my memories of growing up with football (my late brother was, mysteriously, a fan) was that Saturday afternoons plus mid-week evenings was when football 'happened'. Sundays were football free!
These days, if I'm not mistaken, and my knowledge here is gleaned from the University of Ladbrokes, is that football is now big business on Sundays with lunchtime and then teatime kick-offs for the benefit of satellite sports TV channels. There seems to be a demand for this and I can't see that it is unreasonable - and for a footy-phobic like me it is trivially easy for me to simply ignore the footy (and concentrate instead on the much more important matter of Sunday horse racing).
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Dear Rhiannon,
Any day, traditionally it was Sunday, me and Vlad have asked this very question, one day, any day.
Dear Sane,
That is the clincher, we say, we demand, mankind stops, we all say thank you, sorry that sounds to religious, we all thank mother/father Earth!! Oh no Gonnagle, a step to far, maybe we could have a wee guy selling pennants as a homage to consumerism.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Gordon,
Yes football is big business, and we have poverty in this country, we are going backwards, not forward.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Gordon,
Yes football is big business, and we have poverty in this country, we are going backwards, not forward.
Gonnagle.
So the overall reduction in football violence or domestic violence related to football is a bad thing. I am not a fan of the Pinker argument covered in Keith Maitlands interesting post but the golden age shite always demands the question when was this mythological golden fucking age. When was the idyll? When kids died of diphtheria? How about when there were 10000 child prostitutes in London?
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I know, ban Sunday football so the people who earn a bit extra/pay their student loans off by doing the Sunday shifts can't work. And the people who can't get to football on a Saturday can't go on a Sunday either. And they can all go down their local and have a traditional Sunday afternoon looked after by bar staff, waiting staff and kitchen staff who aren't being exploited at all, because it's traditional and cosy and Gonners likes it.
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Dear Gordon,
Yes football is big business, and we have poverty in this country, we are going backwards, not forward.
Gonnagle.
So the overall reduction in football violence or domestic violence related to football is a bad thing. I am not a fan of the Pinker argument covered in Keith Maitlands interesting post but the golden age shite always demands the question when was this mythological golden fucking age. When was the idyll? When kids died of diphtheria? How about when there were 10000 child prostitutes in London?
You know what the 'traditional' Sunday pint meant to the men in my ex's family? Get hammered whilst the missus is at home cooking a roast and minding the kids, arrive home in time to eat it, pass out, wake up, stagger back to pub.
Still, tradition's a great thing.
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Dear Sane,
Nope, I am campaigning for a better way of life, and that one day of quiet reflection could be used to think how we can best help our exploited brothers oh! And sisters.
I'm all for a better life and days of quiet reflection, but I'd like to do it on my terms please, not your Christian ones.
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Dear Rhiannon and Sane,
In a nutshell, backwards thinking, we are more advanced, we can learn from past mistakes, I am not longing for a by gone year, I am looking forward to new thinking.
Dear Jeremyp,
Thank you, I can always rely on you to prove a point.
Gonnagle.
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I would like Scotland to reverse their Sunday opening times so that our Sunday could be slightly more peaceful, instead of driving to the shops, you have a leisurely stroll to your local,
Ah that explains it, I was unaware of the fact that, in Scotland, you are not allowed to take a leisurely stroll to the local if the shops are open.
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Let's try another tack, one day a week when we celebrate our humanity, sorry we have Shaker, Rhiannon and Bashers in the debate ( it is just a debate ) one day a week when we celebrate all living things.
Great. I choose Wednesday.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Good choice, I have tomorrow off, a whole day to do nothing, oh!! Sorry I have the grass to cut, damn!! My neighbour is nightshift, ah fuck him!! Spoiling my day.
One day Jeremyp, when we all celebrate.
One day when we all think about our brothers and sisters.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Good choice, I have tomorrow off, a whole day to do nothing, oh!! Sorry I have the grass to cut, damn!! My neighbour is nightshift, ah fuck him!! Spoiling my day.
One day Jeremyp, when we all celebrate.
One day when we all think about our brothers and sisters.
Gonnagle.
Good idea. Then we can fuck them over on the other six. That's traditional too, been going on for centuries.
Or how about we don't do what you want and instead live every day with concern for each other instead of thinking that because we tick the box on Sundays and holidays we can do what we want the rest of the time?
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Then new thinking is irrelevant to Sunday Opening hours - they are not what you are trying to change. Using hangovers from the past, won't achieve a goal. You need to define the goal and see how you achieve it.
Why does the day to reflect work if as part of it you want someone to be serving you drink in your local? What about their reflection? Is it enough if they reflect here's that tosser who stopped me from working in Tesco but wants me to serve up a pie and a pint?
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Then new thinking is irrelevant to Sunday Opening hours - they are not what you are trying to change. Using hangovers from the past, won't achieve a goal. You need to define the goal and see how you achieve it.
Why does the day to reflect work if as part of it you want someone to be serving you drink in your local? What about their reflection? Is it enough if they reflect here's that tosser who stopped me from working in Tesco but wants me to serve up a pie and a pint?
Indeed.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Good choice, I have tomorrow off, a whole day to do nothing, oh!! Sorry I have the grass to cut, damn!! My neighbour is nightshift, ah fuck him!! Spoiling my day.
One day Jeremyp, when we all celebrate.
Still Wednesday for me.
Or what about Saturday which is the day of rest ordained by your god?
One day when we all think about our brothers and sisters.
Gonnagle.
I think about them most days. Why am I only allowed to think of them on a specific day of your choosing?
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Dear Sane,
Ah!! The penny drops, sorry I was not making my argument correctly, shut the pubs, shut the shops.
One day to stop.
Gonnagle.
I
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Dear Jeremyp,
Aye right, you think of others, nice, but what do you do about it, one day when the Banker is forced to say enough.
Gonnagle.
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Though I think the idea that Sunday Opening hours will solve the issue of shoe shopping or other issues is also incredibly short sighted. We have way more opening hours than people used to have and still people find it a struggle. It's not an issue that is really related to opening hours. Our freedom is both a boon and a chore, demand expands as you increase supply. Freedom is not obtained by shopping hours and gonnagle's raging against the well lit night of the supermarket seems to me to be about something else entirely.
I rarely saw my father when I was growing up because he did two jobs (including working Sundays, either overtime driving the bin lorry, or in a bar serving drink for people reflecting). The times have changed for some but not for all. The idea of a day of rest was only ever a fiction for those who think listening to The Archers omnibus is a human right.
Any problem on this is nothing to do with the current confederacy of dunces we have elected. Most of us on this forum have more time to spend on ourselves than all but the most ridiculously well off from past days. Part of me thinks that less time to reflect would be better. You know who your comrades are when they are always with you.
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It is as if some would like a social dimmer switch that they could use to tone everything down for everyone at the same time, just like electric lighting, so as to result in a temporary subdued state where everything slows down or isn't available - and of course they want control of the switch and to be able to use it when they decide it is good for the rest of us.
They are entitled to their personal dimmer switch of course, which they can use as they wish for their own situation, but I for one don't want to be constrained simply because others think it would be good for me to have otherwise routine options denied in certain situations on the basis of their personal preferences and/or adherence to traditions.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Aye right, you think of others, nice, but what do you do about it, one day when the Banker is forced to say enough.
Gonnagle.
Under your scheme, I'd be too busy doing my quiet reflection and keeping off the roads to do anything about it on a Sunday.
I kind of like your idea, but as soon as you try to make it compulsory, it becomes tyranny.
A few years back, the then government decided to set up a voluntary id card scheme. I thought "that's a good idea, I'll sign up for it" on the grounds that an extra piece of photo id is always useful. Then they changed their minds and said the id card scheme will be compulsory. In that instant I became utterly opposed to the idea.
This is the same. I oppose your idea because you want to impose it on me.
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Dear Sane,
About bloody time!! This is why "your the man" sorry apparently it's what Americans shout, now we have a debate.
Right!! Where's Wigginhall, so I can poke him in the eye with a Sane post :P
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jeremyp,
I was going to apologise, but no, this is why I am a Christian, it focuses me, I an accused of judging and yes I do, shame on me, my faith teaches that this wrong, but one day when we all focus.
Islam focuses on the poor, the less fortunate for a month, one day when we all focus on our fellow man, is that to much to ask.
Gonnagle.
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Yes, because one day is a pointless sticking plaster. As I said, we've had it for centuries and it allowed my people to be cleared off the land to make way for sheep because the gentry that did it were alright with God because said their prayers on a Sunday.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Aye right, you think of others, nice, but what do you do about it, one day when the Banker is forced to say enough.
Gonnagle.
Under your scheme, I'd be too busy doing my quiet reflection and keeping off the roads to do anything about it on a Sunday.
I kind of like your idea, but as soon as you try to make it compulsory, it becomes tyranny.
A few years back, the then government decided to set up a voluntary id card scheme. I thought "that's a good idea, I'll sign up for it" on the grounds that an extra piece of photo id is always useful. Then they changed their minds and said the id card scheme will be compulsory. In that instant I became utterly opposed to the idea.
This is the same. I oppose your idea because you want to impose it on me.
Actually what pisses me off is the arrogance of assuming that because we are happy to buy stuff on a Sunday we don't give a shit about anyone or anything other than ourselves, that we never reflect or reach out to others. It sucks.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Ooops!! there you go getting angry again, fair enough Christianity pisses you off, lots of it pisses me off to, nevermind!!
Gonnagle.
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No, Christianity doesn't piss me off. Christians judging me as morally inferior do though.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
Not really - my life is pretty similar to many people I know - you know busy, busy working families.
57 days - no idea where you get that from - apparently (looking at the stats) I post on average about 3 posts a day. That sounds about right and each one takes, what 30 secs, and usually (as now posted) while on the move. Not much opportunity to shop (in a physical shop) while on a train. But plenty of opportunity to check out what's going on here and post a comment or two.
And back to the question that remains without cogent rebuttal. If a shop wants to open extended hours, there are people happy to work those hours and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours why on earth should that be prevented by law.
When have I said it should be the law to close on Sunday? I am saying it is both selfish, and difficult to justify saying that they have to, just for your convenience. I will not accept that any sensible, organised, person cannot manage their shopping in six and three-quarter days out of the week, six of them 24-hour ones, which is what you are claiming for yourself.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
Not really - my life is pretty similar to many people I know - you know busy, busy working families.
57 days - no idea where you get that from - apparently (looking at the stats) I post on average about 3 posts a day. That sounds about right and each one takes, what 30 secs, and usually (as now posted) while on the move. Not much opportunity to shop (in a physical shop) while on a train. But plenty of opportunity to check out what's going on here and post a comment or two.
And back to the question that remains without cogent rebuttal. If a shop wants to open extended hours, there are people happy to work those hours and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours why on earth should that be prevented by law.
When have I said it should be the law to close on Sunday? I am saying it is both selfish, and difficult to justify saying that they have to, just for your convenience. I will not accept that any sensible, organised, person cannot manage their shopping in six and three-quarter days out of the week, six of them 24-hour ones, which is what you are claiming for yourself.
where in the post you are replying to does it say you think it should be the law to close on Sundays?
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
Not really - my life is pretty similar to many people I know - you know busy, busy working families.
57 days - no idea where you get that from - apparently (looking at the stats) I post on average about 3 posts a day. That sounds about right and each one takes, what 30 secs, and usually (as now posted) while on the move. Not much opportunity to shop (in a physical shop) while on a train. But plenty of opportunity to check out what's going on here and post a comment or two.
And back to the question that remains without cogent rebuttal. If a shop wants to open extended hours, there are people happy to work those hours and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours why on earth should that be prevented by law.
When have I said it should be the law to close on Sunday? I am saying it is both selfish, and difficult to justify saying that they have to, just for your convenience. I will not accept that any sensible, organised, person cannot manage their shopping in six and three-quarter days out of the week, six of them 24-hour ones, which is what you are claiming for yourself.
where in the post you are replying to does it say you think it should be the law to close on Sundays?
I didn't say it was in that particular post.
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It is lying clap-trap to say that you can't find a few hours out of six days of twenty-four hour shopping, plus six or seven days on Sunday.
Wrong - see my earlier post.
I have, and it changes nothing. Get organised!!
I am, exceptionally organised. I have all sorts of things organised - work, family stuff, voluntary stuff etc etc. Doesn't leave much time for shopping in normal shopping hours. Just 2 hour in the last 3 weeks.
If you are exceptionally well-organised, then it should not be beyond your ability to do your shopping - it's not as though you have to plan to climb Everest, or something!
Funny you should say that - actually last weekend was entirely out because I was away walking with friends doing the Yorkshire peaks.
Sure I could stop doing things I need to do (like work) or want to do for others (such as sorting family life, getting kids to places for clubs, parties etc, sorting them to be organised for trips, etc etc, governors meetings and commitments) and things for myself (e.g. choir), so I can get to the shops. But I don't want to do this and wold prefer that the shops were open a little longer on Sunday to make it a little less likely that I have to organise my life around the shops' opening hours rather than the other way around.
So this week:
Tonight - hour commute home then straight out to daughter's end of term gymnastics performance.
Tuesday - hour commute home then straight out to son's school concert, plus serving refreshments at interval
Wednesday - hour commute home then straight out to the dentists
Thursday - problem day - hour commute home then clash between choir rehearsal and son's last ever scouts, which is a family BBQ
And so it goes on.
Get it.
I think we need to gat the violin out for you: what a martyr - yes, I said, "martyr," :)
You really are a sanctimonious guy. You work so hard, so do many things, and you can't find time to go and do your little bit of shopping. Are you the only one in your house who works and shops? Looking at your stats for this forum, I see you've spent a total, so far, of over 57 days on here, posting about mostly innocuous matters, just for the sake of it. Yet you can't find a few hours to shop! Pull the other one, Prof!!
Not really - my life is pretty similar to many people I know - you know busy, busy working families.
57 days - no idea where you get that from - apparently (looking at the stats) I post on average about 3 posts a day. That sounds about right and each one takes, what 30 secs, and usually (as now posted) while on the move. Not much opportunity to shop (in a physical shop) while on a train. But plenty of opportunity to check out what's going on here and post a comment or two.
And back to the question that remains without cogent rebuttal. If a shop wants to open extended hours, there are people happy to work those hours and customers who would prefer to shop during those extended hours why on earth should that be prevented by law.
When have I said it should be the law to close on Sunday? I am saying it is both selfish, and difficult to justify saying that they have to, just for your convenience. I will not accept that any sensible, organised, person cannot manage their shopping in six and three-quarter days out of the week, six of them 24-hour ones, which is what you are claiming for yourself.
where in the post you are replying to does it say you think it should be the law to close on Sundays?
I didn't say it was in that particular post.
so why make an entirely irrelevant reply to a post?
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It is as if some would like a social dimmer switch that they could use to tone everything down for everyone at the same time, just like electric lighting, so as to result in a temporary subdued state where everything slows down or isn't available - and of course they want control of the switch and to be able to use it when they decide it is good for the rest of us.
They are entitled to their personal dimmer switch of course, which they can use as they wish for their own situation, but I for one don't want to be constrained simply because others think it would be good for me to have otherwise routine options denied in certain situations on the basis of their personal preferences and/or adherence to traditions.
Yes, good analogy. For Gonnagle (and me) the best advice advice is to set the "personal dimmer switch" to what you feel happiest with. Slow down yourself and the world around you will slow too - use local shops you can walk or bike to, I expect one shop a week should be enough, libraries and pubs as long as they last. Treat yourself, others and the world gently.
There is no "master" switch, no doubt that those who think they are in charge want to arrange things to keep everyone going at full wack (they will burn out if they do) - But ultimately it all comes down to individual behaviour and example. At the worst, when the lights go out, you will have made the best use of the time to that point.
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NS,
"so why make an entirely irrelevant reply to a post?"
It was just part of my answer. If you look at comments in that way, half the stuff posted is irrelevant.
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NS,
"so why make an entirely irrelevant reply to a post?"
It was just part of my answer. If you look at comments in that way, half the stuff posted is irrelevant.
Why is it you want me to justify every post on here?
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NS,
"so why make an entirely irrelevant reply to a post?"
It was just part of my answer. If you look at comments in that way, half the stuff posted is irrelevant.
Why is it you want me to justify every post on here?
Forget it, this is a "non-argument."
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NS,
"so why make an entirely irrelevant reply to a post?"
It was just part of my answer. If you look at comments in that way, half the stuff posted is irrelevant.
Why is it you want me to justify every post on here?
Forget it, this is a "non-argument."
which is what I pointed out when you started with the strawman to the post you replied to.
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Dear Jeremyp,
I was going to apologise, but no, this is why I am a Christian, it focuses me, I an accused of judging and yes I do, shame on me, my faith teaches that this wrong, but one day when we all focus.
I'm not a Christian. I have no interest in stopping you from doing whatever your faith requires of you. I just don't want you to require it of me too.
Islam focuses on the poor, the less fortunate for a month, one day when we all focus on our fellow man, is that to much to ask.
Gonnagle.
Why do we all have to do it on the same day? Why do we have to set aside a day at all? Shouldn't we be encouraged to focus on our fellow man all the time?
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Dear Jeremyp,
I was going to apologise, but no, this is why I am a Christian, it focuses me, I an accused of judging and yes I do, shame on me, my faith teaches that this wrong, but one day when we all focus.
I'm not a Christian. I have no interest in stopping you from doing whatever your faith requires of you. I just don't want you to require it of me too.
Islam focuses on the poor, the less fortunate for a month, one day when we all focus on our fellow man, is that to much to ask.
Gonnagle.
Why do we all have to do it on the same day? Why do we have to set aside a day at all? Shouldn't we be encouraged to focus on our fellow man all the time?
I agree with both of those points. A top down, one size fits all approach both to managing our individual lives and to supporting concern for others simply doesn't work. Actually it is counterproductive, more likely to lead to stress and resentment than to well being and support for out fellow man.
The notion that the state (acting as the mouthpiece for a religious organisations that have long since ceased to speak for majority in the UK) should dictate when and how we should live our lives is simply wrong in my view. This is something that the state should simply butt out of, with the exception of situations where there is demonstrable harm to individuals, society or the environment. Whether or not a shop should be allowed to open at 9am on a Sunday if they want to open, there are people happy to work and customers who'd prefer to shop at that time doesn't come close to meeting those criteria for something the state should be interfering in.