Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on July 20, 2015, 08:25:10 AM
-
Hi everyone,
Here is a recent CNN article about child prostitution....and the attitude of Law Enforcement. (Sorry the link is not getting saved)
*****************************************************************************
A female defendant is escorted into the courtroom with shackles around her ankles, making it difficult to walk. Dressed in a jail-issued jumpsuit and flip-flops, .......She was 10.
She had been in and out of an Atlanta jail for months, as had her sister, because she was an alleged prostitute, a chronic runaway and no one knew what to do with her.
.....they learned that the girls were surviving on the streets as prostitutes under the tutelage of men who housed, fed and clothed them and, in exchange, sold them to other men for sex.
In Georgia in 2000, while children were being arrested, put in jail, and chained like the worst of criminals, the men selling them and having sex with them were rarely arrested.
Back then, there were no reliable statistics on the number of prostituted children. While the number of 300,000 nationwide was bandied about, I researched the genesis of that number and learned it was wildly speculative and had no basis in fact.
Child prostitution is a hidden problem that was -- and still is -- difficult to count.
Our survey suggested, however, that even judges viewed the problem differently, depending on their gender. Among female juvenile justices, 85% estimated they saw one or more child prostitutes a month, compared with 68% of male judges.
One judge said the adults got away with exploiting children because "people don't believe children, particularly if they're a naughty, bad, unpleasant child."
Atlanta police said at the time it was a lot harder to arrest pimps than prostitutes.
The children who were coming into her courtroom weren't seen as victims by law enforcement, she said. "They're seen as consenting participants."
The 10-year-old would be 25 today. If she's alive.
... the perception of human trafficking has also changed and is no longer viewed exclusively as a problem among immigrants from other countries.
"I think people today understand it is a homegrown problem," she said. "You have people acknowledging that the problem exists in our metro area, and the children need to be treated as children with problems as opposed to problem children."
Pimps who once exploited girls by making them walk the track can now troll the Internet for girls who are going it alone, sometimes luring them into escort services with an offer of higher salaries, payment to cover the cost of their ads and an apartment where they can rendezvous with their clients.
That means that for the 14-year-old girl from an impoverished area who is just getting started and doesn't understand what she's getting into, "a pimp will come along and say, 'Instead of you staying out there in the wind or the cold, I'll put you in a warm apartment and you'll make a lot,' "
He worries that while demand remains strong, too many young girls -- and some boys -- are lured into prostitution out of view of the public and police and without understanding the consequences.
****************************************************************************
Seen together with the general indignation about pedophilia...this is quite a shocker!
Cheers.
Sriram
-
Horrifying! >:(
-
If the story is true, it shows that the US is not a very civilised country to allow a child to be treated in such a horrific manner! :o
-
If the story is true, it shows that the US is not a very civilised country to allow a child to be treated in such a horrific manner! :o
Roses, I think the Georgia referred to is the country, not the US state.
-
It's stories like this which leads me to ponder whether the USA - or large parts parts of it - is really a third world country wearing a first world cloak.
Surely, a 10 year old child has constitutional rights which are being ignored here? Or is the neccessary action to protect the child, treat her and educate her perceived as "welfare", a very dirty word in some places, it seems?
The readiness of Americans to lock people up rather than to intervene in people's circumstances has led to a prison system that has been likened to warehousing.
-
If the story is true, it shows that the US is not a very civilised country to allow a child to be treated in such a horrific manner! :o
Roses, I think the Georgia referred to is the country, not the US state.
This is about Atlanta, US. Just go to CNN....you'll see the article.
-
If the story is true, it shows that the US is not a very civilised country to allow a child to be treated in such a horrific manner! :o
Roses, I think the Georgia referred to is the country, not the US state.
Read it again. Never heard of Atlanta?
-
My apologies to all! I just couldn't imagine such a thing taking place in the USA, and am shocked that it is the case.
My opinion of their judicial system has fallen infinitely lower than it was.
-
If the story is true, it shows that the US is not a very civilised country to allow a child to be treated in such a horrific manner! :o
So, no different to the UK, in other words.
-
If the story is true, it shows that the US is not a very civilised country to allow a child to be treated in such a horrific manner! :o
So, no different to the UK, in other words.
Don't be silly, where in the UK is a child victim of paedophilia put in prison and shackled?
-
Don't be silly, where in the UK is a child victim of paedophilia put in prison and shackled?
Well, at least they're being recognised as such. Here we have only just seemed to realise that it was happening here. Which of the two historic problems would seem better?
-
Don't be silly, where in the UK is a child victim of paedophilia put in prison and shackled?
Well, at least they're being recognised as such. Here we have only just seemed to realise that it was happening here. Which of the two historic problems would seem better?
The problem is bad in both places, it is dealing with it that seems to differ. We seem to have the more humane approach.
-
The problem is bad in both places, it is dealing with it that seems to differ. We seem to have the more humane approach.
If I remember correctly, the article Sriram referred to was dealing with events 15 years ago ("The 10-year-old would be 25 today. If she's alive."). 15 years ago, were we in Britain even recognising the issue?
-
The problem is bad in both places, it is dealing with it that seems to differ. We seem to have the more humane approach.
If I remember correctly, the article Sriram referred to was dealing with events 15 years ago ("The 10-year-old would be 25 today. If she's alive."). 15 years ago, were we in Britain even recognising the issue?
I have no idea, I haven't been back for more than a swift visit in 25 years.
-
I have no idea, I haven't been back for more than a swift visit in 25 years.
Perhaps you haven't heard about the Savile situation and its related 'spin-offs', or those that have occurred in Rotherham, Oxford, etc, etc.
-
I have no idea, I haven't been back for more than a swift visit in 25 years.
Perhaps you haven't heard about the Savile situation and its related 'spin-offs', or those that have occurred in Rotherham, Oxford, etc, etc.
Yes, I did read about Jimmy Saville. I imagine the cover-ups for celebrities and influential people are very real. Disgusting state of affairs.
-
Yes, I did read about Jimmy Saville. I imagine the cover-ups for celebrities and influential people are very real. Disgusting state of affairs.
Take a look at these BBC reports: they make Jimmy Saville look tame
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28934963
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-31712096
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28953549
-
Yes, I did read about Jimmy Saville. I imagine the cover-ups for celebrities and influential people are very real. Disgusting state of affairs.
Take a look at these BBC reports: they make Jimmy Saville look tame
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28934963
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-31712096
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28953549
What a sick society!
-
Don't be silly, where in the UK is a child victim of paedophilia put in prison and shackled?
Well, at least they're being recognised as such. Here we have only just seemed to realise that it was happening here. Which of the two historic problems would seem better?
The problem is bad in both places, it is dealing with it that seems to differ. We seem to have the more humane approach.
In Rotherham and Oxford the authorities 'recognised' the problem by saying the girls were making 'lifestyle choices' and throwing them back to their predators. They might argue that being shackled was preferable to being drugged and raped.
-
What a sick society!
And Floo seems to prefer living here than anywhere else ;) :-X
-
I don't suppose there is any country in this world which is devoid of paedophiles. I hope the UK is now realising the extent of the problem and will begin cracking down BIG TIME on these evil pieces of scum, famous or not!
-
My apologies to all! I just couldn't imagine such a thing taking place in the USA, and am shocked that it is the case.
My opinion of their judicial system has fallen infinitely lower than it was.
That's possible?
If it is then pigs really may fly!
-
Here is another article of yesterday on the same subject....
http://us.cnn.com/2015/07/20/us/sex-trafficking/index.html
**************************************************************************
Sacharay, which is how she wants to be known, was 14 years old and looking for a friend.
"I used to get picked on a lot about being dark-skinned. I started wearing glasses and was called 'four-eyes.' And then they knew because I was so sensitive, they knew it was getting to me," she said.
But when an older classmate approached her and offered to be her friend, Sacharay thought maybe her fortunes had finally started to turn.
"I thought she was like my best friend because I could tell her everything. One day she asked if I wanted to skip school and have fun, you know, so we went to the barber shop. When I was there, she introduced me to these guys," said Sacharay, now 19.
One of the men, in his mid-30s, immediately took notice of Sacharay. He soon began courting her with gifts, paying her compliments and offering advice on the daily dramatics of adolescent life.
"If me and my sister would be arguing, he'd be like, 'You can't get into an argument with your sister like that.' He was more like a dad, but then again we had sex, so it wasn't. It was just in the communication and how he talked to me," she recalled.
It was child rape.
But this subtle, subversive mix of romantic love and parental care can create havoc in the mind of an adolescent, said Anique Whitmore, a forensic psychologist in Atlanta.
Soon, Sacharay's trafficker began asking for "favors" -- asking her to help make some money for him, by sleeping with another man.
"He was like, 'I love you for that, I love you so much,'" said Sacharay. "Then he would slowly put two, three more guys. I got upset when I first realized what he was doing, but I kept doing it because he made me feel like I was special."
The exploitation continued to escalate. Sacharay soon was being sold to dozens of men a day. She would meet these sex buyers in motel rooms near a freeway, or even sometimes in the back of the barbershop.
A big part of Atlanta's draw is the airport, which is the busiest in the world.
"(A) man could get on that computer, anonymously, say, 'I'm coming in to go have sex with this child.' He'll fly in on a 3:00 flight, meet the child at 6:00, and be gone on the 8:00," said Dalia Racine, assistant district attorney for DeKalb County, which includes part of Atlanta. "How are we to ever find them? How are we to ever know who they are?"
**************************************************************************
-
Not really any different to the street gang grooming/abuse cases we've seen so much of in recent years. Shocking but not surprising.
-
I think it would be terribly naive to think this isn't a global problem. The defining characteristic seems to be that the girl victims are themselves to blame for the abuse, as though they are so wanton and so alluring that their abusers had no choice.
-
It is sobering, if not depressing, to realise that the process of evolution which gave us all life, works in such a haphazard manner. It produces all kinds of genetic variations, some of which repel us like this one, in its blundering blindness.
Another reason to believe that no great consciousness is behind it.
-
It is sobering, if not depressing, to realise that the process of evolution which gave us all life, works in such a haphazard manner. It produces all kinds of genetic variations, some of which repel us like this one, in its blundering blindness.
Another reason to believe that no great consciousness is behind it.
And equally a good reason to believe that evolution isn't the overall panacea that some here would like us to believe. Rather, the probability of some purpose that has been damaged by human wilfullness is increased. After all, these more repulsive variations are statistically few and far between.
-
It is sobering, if not depressing, to realise that the process of evolution which gave us all life, works in such a haphazard manner. It produces all kinds of genetic variations, some of which repel us like this one, in its blundering blindness.
Another reason to believe that no great consciousness is behind it.
And equally a good reason to believe that evolution isn't the overall panacea that some here would like us to believe. Rather, the probability of some purpose that has been damaged by human wilfullness is increased. After all, these more repulsive variations are statistically few and far between.
I don't see how you can say that such mutations are "few and far between" when they occur in large numbers in every generation.
-
Regardless of the general shock and indignation over pedophilia.....it seems to be fairly widespread in many parts of the civilized world. It is in fact growing rapidly due to internet access. Little we can do except sigh and move on it seems!
Big shots and people in high places are already patrons of this sort of thing. How dangerous that can be is difficult to imagine.
-
Regardless of the general shock and indignation over pedophilia.....it seems to be fairly widespread in many parts of the civilized world. It is in fact growing rapidly due to internet access. Little we can do except sigh and move on it seems!
Big shots and people in high places are already patrons of this sort of thing. How dangerous that can be is difficult to imagine.
And the uncivilised world. It is a natural phenomena.
Like every other antisocial activity we can only try to prevent/control/punish it.
-
Regardless of the general shock and indignation over pedophilia.....it seems to be fairly widespread in many parts of the civilized world. It is in fact growing rapidly due to internet access. Little we can do except sigh and move on it seems!
Big shots and people in high places are already patrons of this sort of thing. How dangerous that can be is difficult to imagine.
Like every other antisocial activity we can only try to prevent/control/punish it.
The point is that with the patronage of the high and mighty...it is probably not even seen as an antisocial activity in some circles. Porn is free, prostitution is common place, illicit sex is normal. Children used sexually could increasingly be seen as just an extension of all this 'freedom'.....a part of the liberal society.
-
Regardless of the general shock and indignation over pedophilia.....it seems to be fairly widespread in many parts of the civilized world. It is in fact growing rapidly due to internet access. Little we can do except sigh and move on it seems!
Big shots and people in high places are already patrons of this sort of thing. How dangerous that can be is difficult to imagine.
Like every other antisocial activity we can only try to prevent/control/punish it.
The point is that with the patronage of the high and mighty...it is probably not even seen as an antisocial activity in some circles. Porn is free, prostitution is common place, illicit sex is normal. Children used sexually could increasingly be seen as just an extension of all this 'freedom'.....a part of the liberal society.
Thankfully, I do not have that vision of the future.
-
Regardless of the general shock and indignation over pedophilia.....it seems to be fairly widespread in many parts of the civilized world. It is in fact growing rapidly due to internet access. Little we can do except sigh and move on it seems!
Big shots and people in high places are already patrons of this sort of thing. How dangerous that can be is difficult to imagine.
Like every other antisocial activity we can only try to prevent/control/punish it.
The point is that with the patronage of the high and mighty...it is probably not even seen as an antisocial activity in some circles. Porn is free, prostitution is common place, illicit sex is normal. Children used sexually could increasingly be seen as just an extension of all this 'freedom'.....a part of the liberal society.
Victorian Britain - one of the most religious, uptight societies - had vast numbers of child prostitutes - indeed prostitution of all kinds - as well as a thriving trade in pornographic material.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza_Armstrong_case
-
It is sobering, if not depressing, to realise that the process of evolution which gave us all life, works in such a haphazard manner. It produces all kinds of genetic variations, some of which repel us like this one, in its blundering blindness.
Another reason to believe that no great consciousness is behind it.
I don't really see thar evolution has anything to with this - except, of course, that evolution has produced a human sexuality which is more more complex and involved than any which occurs elsewhere in the animal world.
I think that paraphilias are most likely to have developed as a result of interactions between inheritance and environment, learning in other words, at sensitive stages in the process of maturation - influenced by culture.
-
Agree that genetics/evolution is only indirectly related, much more due to early experiences and later culture.
-
Regardless of the general shock and indignation over pedophilia.....it seems to be fairly widespread in many parts of the civilized world. It is in fact growing rapidly due to internet access. Little we can do except sigh and move on it seems!
Big shots and people in high places are already patrons of this sort of thing. How dangerous that can be is difficult to imagine.
Like every other antisocial activity we can only try to prevent/control/punish it.
The point is that with the patronage of the high and mighty...it is probably not even seen as an antisocial activity in some circles. Porn is free, prostitution is common place, illicit sex is normal. Children used sexually could increasingly be seen as just an extension of all this 'freedom'.....a part of the liberal society.
Victorian Britain - one of the most religious, uptight societies - had vast numbers of child prostitutes - indeed prostitution of all kinds - as well as a thriving trade in pornographic material.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza_Armstrong_case
Yes, I can't see why "liberal society" would have anything to do with child exploitation and abuse. Can we even say that child abuse and prostitution is even increasing? If it is, isn't it more likely to be due to access to vulnerable children (eg through internet, travel, migration etc) than any fundamental change in peoples values?
It is "liberal society" that recognizes rights and protection for women and children that "traditional" society does not.
-
Yes, I can't see why "liberal society" would have anything to do with child exploitation and abuse. Can we even say that child abuse and prostitution is even increasing? If it is, isn't it more likely to be due to access to vulnerable children (eg through internet, travel, migration etc) than any fundamental change in peoples values?
It is "liberal society" that recognizes rights and protection for women and children that "traditional" society does not.
Which I suppose is why it might be seen as increasing since previously it wasn't recognised. I don't think there is a clear statement in the thread about how this could even be measured, or indeed what is being measured.
-
Nothing much to do with a 'Liberal society'.
It occurs everywhere in all different societies.
I ask myself is India a liberal society?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-21352102
-
I've been waiting for Sriram to do the honest thing and post the entire article. I've read it and Sriram has been very selective on what he posted. He has omitted all the sentences that speak about progress being made and the part about the judge being very concerned for the young girl and the judge having the journalist meet the girl and so and so forth.
I also notice that Sriram is again pointing a finger at the western world while there are over one million child prostitutes in his beloved India. India where the law enforcement is often times in on the illegal prostitution of young girls. Child prostitution in India is epidemic.
http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2014/03/06/indias-child-trafficking-epidemic/
-
I've been waiting for Sriram to do the honest thing and post the entire article. I've read it and Sriram has been very selective on what he posted. He has omitted all the sentences that speak about progress being made and the part about the judge being very concerned for the young girl and the judge having the journalist meet the girl and so and so forth.
I also notice that Sriram is again pointing a finger at the western world while there are over one million child prostitutes in his beloved India. India where the law enforcement is often times in on the illegal prostitution of young girls. Child prostitution in India is epidemic.
http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2014/03/06/indias-child-trafficking-epidemic/
Oh good, there are kids being sold into a form of sexual slavery and we want to argue about who is worse at doing it.
-
You haven't read the article Mr. Nearly, you have been fed a dishonest report from Sriram. Dishonest through omission. We have a pattern of finger pointing at the west and he specifically mentions the liberal west. Do you not care that India's child prostitution is epidemic, you want to go at me for mentioning it? Then you care as much about India's child prostitution explosion as Sriram does. Why else really would you be barking from your soap box because I dared to point this reality out. Shame on you. I won't tolerate people that point fingers at others for things that they themselves have a problem with. Now slither down off your high horse Mr. Nearly, and have a cookie.
-
I've been waiting for Sriram to do the honest thing and post the entire article. I've read it and Sriram has been very selective on what he posted. He has omitted all the sentences that speak about progress being made and the part about the judge being very concerned for the young girl and the judge having the journalist meet the girl and so and so forth.
I also notice that Sriram is again pointing a finger at the western world while there are over one million child prostitutes in his beloved India. India where the law enforcement is often times in on the illegal prostitution of young girls. Child prostitution in India is epidemic.
http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2014/03/06/indias-child-trafficking-epidemic/
I expected some such over the top defensive reaction from you....Johnny.
I could not link the first article in the OP because it was rejected by the system...I got a Forbidden message. I have however given basic excerpts of what the article is about. Anyone can go to CNN and read the full article if they want. The second article... I have linked. So read it.
I am merely pointing out relevant areas of concern in your countries, for discussion. You are the one pointing fingers.
Let me add that 300000 child prostitutes in the US works out to about 0.1 % while 1 million (?) child prostitutes in a population of 1.3 billion in India works out to less than that!
In any case, could you stay on the subject instead of digressing...please?!
-
You haven't read the article Mr. Nearly, you have been fed a dishonest report from Sriram. Dishonest through omission. We have a pattern of finger pointing at the west and he specifically mentions the liberal west. Do you not care that India's child prostitution is epidemic, you want to go at me for mentioning it? Then you care as much about India's child prostitution explosion as Sriram does. Why else really would you be barking from your soap box because I dared to point this reality out. Shame on you. I won't tolerate people that point fingers at others for things that they themselves have a problem with. Now slither down off your high horse Mr. Nearly, and have a cookie.
I'm not having a go at you for mentioning anything to do with India, read what I wrote and not what you have filled in. Your reaction to Sriram is a classic tu quoque fallacy. I don't care where has the worse problem with child prostitution , I care about dealing with it wherever it is, though I have more chance of doing something about it in the UK because that is where I live. This bickering about where has a worse problem is childish and does nothing to address the problem.
-
What doesn't address a problem is constantly pointing a finger at others and ignoring that very problem in your own back yard, acting like you don't have a problem. Good grief. Now have a cookie Nearly.
-
Mr.Nearly,
You mention addressing the problem. Well yes, but by Sriram's dishonesty through omission, he leads us to think that they are not trying to address the problem. Read the full article, they are trying including that judge. And since you are being so critical that I have pointed all this out, what are you doing exactly to stop child prostitution? Probably as much as I. Letting our tax dollars be used by those that know what they are doing.
-
Mr.Nearly,
You mention addressing the problem. Well yes, but by Sriram's dishonesty through omission, he leads us to think that they are not trying to address the problem. Read the full article, they are trying including that judge. And since you are being so critical that I have pointed all this out, what are you doing exactly to stop child prostitution? Probably as much as I. Letting our tax dollars be used by those that know what they are doing.
So what happpned with Jimmy Savile here was fine with you, That was those people who knew what they were doing. The losing of files on child abuse by govt is ok. What happened in Rotherham is all great because those people get our taxes and they know what they are doing.
-
I'm sorry Mr. Nearly, that you hold no faith in law enforcement, charities, child advocate orgs. judges and courts, women's shelters and so on. How awful that you feel your tax dollars are being wasted by these incompetent buffoons. Mr. Nearly can do it better. So again, what exactly are you doing to end child prostitution? Your arrogance and looking down your nose is saving no child I'm sorry to inform you. Unlike you, I count on my tax dollars being used by these groups to fight against child prostitution. Why? Because they have the education and experience to work with these children, because they have the education and experience to fight against those that exploit the children. What does Mr. Nearly know about this that they do not? ZILCH and you will get no tax dollars nor be listened to as any kind of expert. You know nothing about saving these children, you're just too full of yourself is all.
-
I'm sorry Mr. Nearly, that you hold no faith in law enforcement, charities, child advocate orgs. judges and courts, women's shelters and so on. How awful that you feel your tax dollars are being wasted by these incompetent buffoons. Mr. Nearly can do it better. So again, what exactly are you doing to end child prostitution? Your arrogance and looking down your nose is saving no child I'm sorry to inform you. Unlike you, I count on my tax dollars being used by these groups to fight against child prostitution. Why? Because they have the education and experience to work with these children, because they have the education and experience to fight against those that exploit the children. What does Mr. Nearly know about this that they do not? ZILCH and you will get no tax dollars nor be listened to as any kind of expert. You know nothing about saving these children, you're just too full of yourself is all.
I forgive you
-
So you are just hot air then Mr. Nearly. It was quite obvious. You mouth off at others but know nothing and do nothing to stop child prostitution. Oh, and your Jimmy guy, I never heard of him until you all started talking about him around here. Can't point your bony finger at me on that one. You on the other han,. knew of this guy for decades, seen him, watched him, listened to him. He's YOUR dead pervert, not mine.
Hey dude, I'm still waiting for you to tell us what you would do better and are doing to stop child prostitution. I am still waiting for you to actually read the full article and see for yourself the dishonest of what Sriram did here.
-
So you are just hot air then Mr. Nearly. It was quite obvious. You mouth off at others but know nothing and do nothing to stop child prostitution. Oh, and your Jimmy guy, I never heard of him until you all started talking about him around here. Can't point your bony finger at me on that one. You on the other han,. knew of this guy for decades, seen him, watched him, listened to him. He's YOUR dead pervert, not mine.
Hey dude, I'm still waiting for you to tell us what you would do better and are doing to stop child prostitution. I am still waiting for you to actually read the full article and see for yourself the dishonest of what Sriram did here.
I can't play the organ.
Say I go to an organ recital and listen to one of Buxtehude's preludes - and it's all wrong; the organist is playing bum notes left right and centre, it's all off key and jarring.
Am I allowed to say "this organist is rubbish - he isn't doing his job properly, etc.."? Would I only be allowed to say that if I could, or thought I could, do better?
If professionals are falling down on the job and people are getting hurt because of their incompetence and/or dishonesty, we are allowed to point it out.
You ask what NS is doing about it - well as private citizens there isn't much we can do directly, but one thing we can do is point out when the systems and the professionals entrusted with operating those systems are failing. That is doing something about it, to an extent. So in the same breath you are taunting NS for not doing anything about it, and berating him for what he is doing about it.
Our lack of faith in the law enforcement system is based upon the fact that it has failed, which is not in dispute. That doesn't mean it fails every time, but it does mean that we are not assured of its efficacy. Would it be better if we just shut up and pretended everything was ok?
-
Our lack of faith in the law enforcement system is based upon the fact that it has failed, which is not in dispute. That doesn't mean it fails every time, but it does mean that we are not assured of its efficacy. Would it be better if we just shut up and pretended everything was ok?
Definitely not! When it is wrong we should do all we can to get it put right.
-
I don't see how you can say that such mutations are "few and far between" when they occur in large numbers in every generation.
Do they? Surely, part of the repulsion many of us feel over this evil is that it involves a relatively small proportion of the populace. If you look at the various paedophile rings that have come to light in Rotherham, etc. the perps generally number around a dozen. Yes, they may traffic tens (even fifties) of children, and may send them to tens of paedophiles across the contry, but those paedophikles are small numbers in any given local populations.
-
Do they? Surely, part of the repulsion many of us feel over this evil is that it involves a relatively small proportion of the populace. If you look at the various paedophile rings that have come to light in Rotherham, etc. the perps generally number around a dozen. Yes, they may traffic tens (even fifties) of children, and may send them to tens of paedophiles across the contry, but those paedophikles are small numbers in any given local populations.
Of course they are when looked at in a small population, as are most mutations, but you must remember that when taken globally the number is enormous.
As I pointed out, that is the way evolution works ... it is not interested in our "morality", its sole purpose is to survive and reproduce.
-
Of course they are when looked at in a small population, as are most mutations, but you must remember that when taken globally the number is enormous.
Surely if a mutation is small in a normal population, it remains small in a global population - unless there is a particularly high incidence in one or more particular populations.
-
Of course they are when looked at in a small population, as are most mutations, but you must remember that when taken globally the number is enormous.
Surely if a mutation is small in a normal population, it remains small in a global population - unless there is a particularly high incidence in one or more particular populations.
Please don't be obtuse, Hope. The proportion is small, but the actual number globally is enormous.
-
May well have been said before, above, but this has nothing to do with evolution or "mutations" except incidentally.
-
May well have been said before, above, but this has nothing to do with evolution or "mutations" except incidentally.
It has everything to do with mutations and evolution. If you are going to play the card of "nurture", just remember that unless an individual is genetically biased towards a certain behaviour, nurture will have no effect on him.
-
It is just a gross oversimplification. next you'll be claiming that some people have a genetic inclination to post rubbish on forums!
-
It is just a gross oversimplification. next you'll be claiming that some people have a genetic inclination to post rubbish on forums!
Well, now that you mention it ...
-
It is just a gross oversimplification. next you'll be claiming that some people have a genetic inclination to post rubbish on forums!
If the cap fits!
-
May well have been said before, above, but this has nothing to do with evolution or "mutations" except incidentally.
It has everything to do with mutations and evolution. If you are going to play the card of "nurture", just remember that unless an individual is genetically biased towards a certain behaviour, nurture will have no effect on him.
You are leading yourself into a blind alley. It is little to do with "mutation". Mutations are completely random - paraphilias are sufficiently common and sufficiently systematised to rule out a totally haphazard process like mutation. There may well be a genetic component, but it is more likely to have been inherited than spontaneously occurring.
Paraphilias appear to be the result of complex interactions between nature (genetic inheritance) and experience at sensitive stages of development. Human sexuality is the most complex of any organism on the planet, having components concerned with reproduction and relationships. With the possible exception of bonobos, human sexuality has an expressive function found nowhere else among animals. There is clearly a greater chance of some pathological development occurring.
In addition to basic genetic influences (which is what I think you mean by "mutation") there are events and influences which are both pre- and post-partuition which appear to affect the likelihood of some kind of paraphilia. Influences may include maternal hormone balance, inappropriate neurological development, parenting behaviour, family dynamics early child care and educational practices and so on.
-
You are leading yourself into a blind alley. It is little to do with "mutation". Mutations are completely random - paraphilias are sufficiently common and sufficiently systematised to rule out a totally haphazard process like mutation. There may well be a genetic component, but it is more likely to have been inherited than spontaneously occurring.
Paraphilias appear to be the result of complex interactions between nature (genetic inheritance) and experience at sensitive stages of development. Human sexuality is the most complex of any organism on the planet, having components concerned with reproduction and relationships. With the possible exception of bonobos, human sexuality has an expressive function found nowhere else among animals. There is clearly a greater chance of some pathological development occurring.
In addition to basic genetic influences (which is what I think you mean by "mutation") there are events and influences which are both pre- and post-partuition which appear to affect the likelihood of some kind of paraphilia. Influences may include maternal hormone balance, inappropriate neurological development, parenting behaviour, family dynamics early child care and educational practices and so on.
You obviously know more about genetics than I do, but one thing is perfectly clear to me. Some people are more susceptible to non-genetic influences on their sexuality than others ... identical twin studies have shown this. So what can the reason be other than genetical?
-
There are identical twin studies of paedophilia ?
-
There are identical twin studies of paedophilia ?
I have no idea, but since it is a sexuality variant, I would think the same causes apply.
Furthermore, I'm sure there are many men with paedophilic inclinations who are able to repress such feelings, just as some homosexual people can.
Once again that can only be due to genetics.
-
There are identical twin studies of paedophilia ?
I have no idea, but since it is a sexuality variant, I would think the same causes apply.
Furthermore, I'm sure there are many men with paedophilic inclinations who are able to repress such feelings, just as some homosexual people can.
Once again that can only be due to genetics.
You seem to have a very simplistic view of human child development. Once conception has taken place, the genetic component is fixed. Everything that happens to the developing organism from that point on is the result of "nurture".
There are countless influences acting on the unborn child which interact with the genetic influences to produce all kinds of consequences. It is extremely unlikely that paraphilias are simply "inherited". There may be a genetic disposition to a particular behaviour, but it will almost certainly require some kind of environmental experience to activate it.
Even monozygotic twins in the same uterus have different environmental influences and experiences - they occupy different positions, have separate placentas with possibly different maternal blood flows and so on.
As a matter of interest, who do you think one inherits deviance from - father or mother?
-
You seem to have a very simplistic view of human child development. Once conception has taken place, the genetic component is fixed. Everything that happens to the developing organism from that point on is the result of "nurture".
There are countless influences acting on the unborn child which interact with the genetic influences to produce all kinds of consequences. It is extremely unlikely that paraphilias are simply "inherited". There may be a genetic disposition to a particular behaviour, but it will almost certainly require some kind of environmental experience to activate it.
Even monozygotic twins in the same uterus have different environmental influences and experiences - they occupy different positions, have separate placentas with possibly different maternal blood flows and so on.
Yes, I know all that, but I am simply pointing out the fact that an unborn child's reaction to its surroundings depends on its genetic makeup. Obviously all children don't react to their environment in the same way ... it depends on their genetic makeup.
As a matter of interest, who do you think one inherits deviance from - father or mother?
You don't necessarily have to inherit a deviance (although you can, of course), it can arise because of a certain genetic combination at fertilisation, to which both the mother and father contribute but neither of which have the same deviance.
-
Sorry Len, but this is just plain wrong. Have you any example in mind?
-
Sorry Len, but this is just plain wrong. Have you any example in mind?
Can you just tell me why it is "plain wrong"?
-
Yes, I know all that, but I am simply pointing out the fact that an unborn child's reaction to its surroundings depends on its genetic makeup. Obviously all children don't react to their environment in the same way ... it depends on their genetic makeup.
Which explains, of course, why identical twins (ie with identical genetic make-ups) end up behaving in identical fashions; NOT!!
On a somewhat different, but related issue, I was intrigued to hear that an entry for this year's National Eisteddfod writing competition contains elements of child abuse.This has only just come to light, but has been in the hands of the police since March.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33748599
-
Sorry Len, but this is just plain wrong. Have you any example in mind?
Can you just tell me why it is "plain wrong"?
Just because we don't have any evidence (or I may not know of any) where "deviance" (??) is shown to be inherited. And the idea that genes from both parents may combine to form a new one really needs some kind of evidential, factual, support.
No doubt most of human behaviour, including sexuality, is determined and/or influenced by our genetic inheritance but there are too many other factors in effect for that to be a useful starting point in understanding child prostitution, paedophile rings or grooming gangs.
-
I know I often talk of epigenetics...but that does not mean that others should not talk about it! ;)
Every aspect of our behavior cannot be explained by genetics. In fact, most behavioural aspects can be explained only by epigenetics. Lifestyle can influence a person and his/her progeny to develop deviant and abnormal behaviour....through epigenetic processes.
-
Just because we don't have any evidence (or I may not know of any) where "deviance" (??) is shown to be inherited. And the idea that genes from both parents may combine to form a new one really needs some kind of evidential, factual, support.
No doubt most of human behaviour, including sexuality, is determined and/or influenced by our genetic inheritance but there are too many other factors in effect for that to be a useful starting point in understanding child prostitution, paedophile rings or grooming gangs.
1. All human behaviour can only have a nature/nurture source.
2. All humans do not respond in the same way to their nurture.
3. The difference can only be caused by their genetic make-up.
4. So ultimately our genes designate the final result of nature/nurture.
That is all I am claiming, and it is only my opinion.
-
Len, Sriram,
This approach, just attributing all behaviour to genetics/epigentics is too broad brush to be of any use at all, it is just a reduction to banality.
Unless, for each behaviour, you can tell me which genes, switches, proteins and hormones are involved, there is no point in taking you seriously.
I had biueberries at breakfast this morning. This is because of genetics/epigenetics? Not because they were in abundance in the market yesterday?
-
Len, Sriram,
This approach, just attributing all behaviour to genetics/epigentics is too broad brush to be of any use at all, it is just a reduction to banality.
Unless, for each behaviour, you can tell me which genes, switches, proteins and hormones are involved, there is no point in taking you seriously.
I had biueberries at breakfast this morning. This is because of genetics/epigenetics? Not because they were in abundance in the market yesterday?
OK, dearie, we'll leave it at that then. :)
-
Len, Sriram,
This approach, just attributing all behaviour to genetics/epigentics is too broad brush to be of any use at all, it is just a reduction to banality.
Unless, for each behaviour, you can tell me which genes, switches, proteins and hormones are involved, there is no point in taking you seriously.
I had biueberries at breakfast this morning. This is because of genetics/epigenetics? Not because they were in abundance in the market yesterday?
Genetics and epigenetics provide the inclination. Immediate circumstances decide specifically what a person does.
A person could be inclined to drink but whether he drinks Jack Daniels, Scotch or a local brew...depends on his circumstances. Similarly with vegetarianism, sexuality and all other qualities.
-
1. All human behaviour can only have a nature/nurture source.
2. All humans do not respond in the same way to their nurture.
3. The difference can only be caused by their genetic make-up.
4. So ultimately our genes designate the final result of nature/nurture.
That is all I am claiming, and it is only my opinion.
Nurture does not mean "upbringing" - it means "every single environmental incident you can imagine from the moment after conception has taken place".
Sexuality is not a single-gene condition. In human sexuality is so complex that it is likely to be the product of hundreds of genes. In many cases these create a kind of potential for behaviour rather than a defined behaviour. Actual behaviour results from an interaction between genetic and environmental influences. The possible range of consequences from these interactions is huge.
"Nature" and "nurture" may be alternatives. But they also likely to be contributors to final behaviour.
-
1. All human behaviour can only have a nature/nurture source.
2. All humans do not respond in the same way to their nurture.
3. The difference can only be caused by their genetic make-up.
4. So ultimately our genes designate the final result of nature/nurture.
That is all I am claiming, and it is only my opinion.
Nurture does not mean "upbringing" - it means "every single environmental incident you can imagine from the moment after conception has taken place".
Sexuality is not a single-gene condition. In human sexuality is so complex that it is likely to be the product of hundreds of genes. In many cases these create a kind of potential for behaviour rather than a defined behaviour. Actual behaviour results from an interaction between genetic and environmental influences. The possible range of consequences from these interactions is huge.
"Nature" and "nurture" may be alternatives. But they also likely to be contributors to final behaviour.
Which is precisely what I said.
-
Which is precisely what I said.
No it is not.
You said:
3. The difference can only be caused by their genetic make-up.
I said:
Actual behaviour results from an interaction between genetic and environmental influences.
Not the same thing.
-
Which is precisely what I said.
No it is not.
You said:
3. The difference can only be caused by their genetic make-up.
I said:
Actual behaviour results from an interaction between genetic and environmental influences.
Not the same thing.
The way an organism reacts to its environment (nurture) after conception must be entirely genetic.
-
Ah, I see where you are coming from.
But that does not take learning into account. The learning occurs as a result of interactions.
(I'm using learning in the sense of a relatively permanent change in behaviour as a result of experience - which is the standard psychology definition.)
-
Ah, I see where you are coming from.
But that does not take learning into account. The learning occurs as a result of interactions.
(I'm using learning in the sense of a relatively permanent change in behaviour as a result of experience - which is the standard psychology definition.)
I take all learning/experience as environmental (nurture), and even in that case the susceptibility of the subject is dependent on his genetics. Some are less responsive than others.
However, I confess I know nothing about psychology.
-
I'm curious as to whether anyone's read Stephen Covey's 'Seven Habits of Highly Effective People'?
He describes something akin to this discussion in the section on proactivity.
We have inherited, amongst other traits, self-awareness, to acknowledge the influences on our lives. So long as we take the time to appreciate and understand those influence we have the capacity to rationally put them aside and not be beholden to them.
A path to free-will and bypassing the determinism of nature/nurture?
O.
-
I'm curious as to whether anyone's read Stephen Covey's 'Seven Habits of Highly Effective People'?
He describes something akin to this discussion in the section on proactivity.
We have inherited, amongst other traits, self-awareness, to acknowledge the influences on our lives. So long as we take the time to appreciate and understand those influence we have the capacity to rationally put them aside and not be beholden to them.
A path to free-will and bypassing the determinism of nature/nurture?
O.
THis is something addressed in some kinds of therapy. Putting aside the beliefs we acquire about ourselves from our upbringing - not just parents but friends, siblings, teachers, culture - can require a complete undoing of our awareness of who and how we are. Personally though I do not believe that choosing to follow such a path to self-awareness overrides our nature/nurture, but that we also have something in our make-up that enables us to do so.
-
Works for me, though some might complain about the recursion needed for this as a solution.
-
Hi everyone,
On the one hand child prostitution is rampant and on the other hand this....
http://us.cnn.com/2015/08/03/us/dating-app-sex-offender-registry/index.html
************************************************************************
Zach Anderson is 19 and a typical teenager. He's into computers and wants to build a career around his love for electronics.
But those plans and any semblance of a normal life are for now out the window. Under court order, he can't access the Internet, go to a mall or linger near a school or playground. His parents say because he has a 15-year-old brother, he can't even live at home any longer.
Why? He's been placed on the sex offender registry after a dating app hookup.
He was at his home in Elkhart, Indiana, when he met the girl, who lived across the state line in nearby southern Michigan.
The girl told Zach she was 17, but she lied. She was only 14, and by having sex with her, Zach was committing a crime. He was arrested and convicted.
*************************************************************************
::)
-
In today's CNN....they are branding the girls.
http://us.cnn.com/2015/08/31/us/sex-trafficking-branding/index.html
*********************************************************************
A clear sign of that life is tattooed in big bold letters across her chest.
"This right here," she said pointing to her tattoo. "I call it my wall wound. I got it when I was 14 years old, and he was one of my pimps," she said.
Adriana's trafficker had persuaded her to have his name tattooed across her chest.
"It lets other pimps know that this is their property," said Vice Sgt. Ron Fisher of the Los Angeles Police Department in Van Nuys. Fisher has seen untold numbers of them as his unit works the streets and the Internet, trying to find underage.... girls being trafficked.
Police and anti-trafficking advocates are seeing those brands on girls more and more in recent years.
"The first time I became aware of this was probably five years ago. It's just another way to control them [the girls], and let other pimps know that, 'Hey, this individual belongs to me,'" LAPD Capt. Lillian Carranza said. The branding shows up all over the girls' bodies.
**********************************************************************
-
Hi everyone,
On the one hand child prostitution is rampant and on the other hand this....
http://us.cnn.com/2015/08/03/us/dating-app-sex-offender-registry/index.html
************************************************************************
Zach Anderson is 19 and a typical teenager. He's into computers and wants to build a career around his love for electronics.
But those plans and any semblance of a normal life are for now out the window. Under court order, he can't access the Internet, go to a mall or linger near a school or playground. His parents say because he has a 15-year-old brother, he can't even live at home any longer.
Why? He's been placed on the sex offender registry after a dating app hookup.
He was at his home in Elkhart, Indiana, when he met the girl, who lived across the state line in nearby southern Michigan.
The girl told Zach she was 17, but she lied. She was only 14, and by having sex with her, Zach was committing a crime. He was arrested and convicted.
*************************************************************************
::)
IMHO this is similar to a case in England some years ago which involved a teetotaller having his drink spiked without his knowledge or consent. He was convicted of drunk driving, fined, and banned. Sometimes the law is an ass.
-
Hi everyone,
On the one hand child prostitution is rampant and on the other hand this....
http://us.cnn.com/2015/08/03/us/dating-app-sex-offender-registry/index.html
************************************************************************
Zach Anderson is 19 and a typical teenager. He's into computers and wants to build a career around his love for electronics.
But those plans and any semblance of a normal life are for now out the window. Under court order, he can't access the Internet, go to a mall or linger near a school or playground. His parents say because he has a 15-year-old brother, he can't even live at home any longer.
Why? He's been placed on the sex offender registry after a dating app hookup.
He was at his home in Elkhart, Indiana, when he met the girl, who lived across the state line in nearby southern Michigan.
The girl told Zach she was 17, but she lied. She was only 14, and by having sex with her, Zach was committing a crime. He was arrested and convicted.
*************************************************************************
::)
IMHO this is similar to a case in England some years ago which involved a teetotaller having his drink spiked without his knowledge or consent. He was convicted of drunk driving, fined, and banned. Sometimes the law is an ass.
The problem is, in this country, that the rule is that "Ignorance of the law is no defence at law", not knowing it is illegal does not stop it being illegal.
-
The problem is, in this country, that the rule is that "Ignorance of the law is no defence at law", not knowing it is illegal does not stop it being illegal.
But mercy should always season justice ... to quote the Bard.
-
The problem is, in this country, that the rule is that "Ignorance of the law is no defence at law", not knowing it is illegal does not stop it being illegal.
But mercy should always season justice ... to quote the Bard.
Yeah, but Appeal lawyers have to be able earn their share of the loot!
-
Yeah, but Appeal lawyers have to be able earn their share of the loot!
Let them find another job! There should be no appeal against mercy seasoned justice. :)
-
The problem is, in this country, that the rule is that "Ignorance of the law is no defence at law", not knowing it is illegal does not stop it being illegal.
How is ignorance of the law relevant? He's been rendered incapable of rational behaviour by someone else's actions, yet still found guilty as though he were in control. People get away with murder - literally - with 'death by dangerous driving' because their self-induced alcohol levels mean they wouldn't be considered competent at the time for a murder charge to stick.
O.
-
LJ and Outrider
Where did I say that I agreed with the principles? I don't but they exist!
-
In the case of Zach Anderson (Sriram's example) it should be remebered that many US states have an offence (or offense as they misspell it) called Statutory Rape.
Statutory Rape is based upon two principles:
1. That a (usually) female who is below the age of consent is TOTALLY INCAPABLE of consenting to sexual intercourse under any circumstance. She totally lacks the capacity to engage in sexual intercourse irrespective of her physical or mental development or maturity..
2. The male may or may not be aware of her age but that is immaterial. By engaging in sexual intercourse with her he has raped her, even though she may have encouraged or demanded the act.
This has been complicated in some jurisdictions by the introduction of so-called Romeo and Juliet laws which allow a special dispensation should the male be not more than, perhaps, three years older than the female and the act is consensual.
In Zach Anderson's case the situation is irrefutable: he is a rapist and a dangerous criminal. The law has determind this. Never mind the biology. Never mind that girls - on average - reach sexual maturity nearly two years before boys. It is always the boy's fault.
In the second case, quoted by Humph, this was probably determined by the court of first instance. I would guess that there were grounds for an appeal.
-
IMHO this is similar to a case in England some years ago which involved a teetotaller having his drink spiked without his knowledge or consent. He was convicted of drunk driving, fined, and banned. Sometimes the law is an ass.
The problem is, in this country, that the rule is that "Ignorance of the law is no defence at law", not knowing it is illegal does not stop it being illegal.
Not sure that "Ignorance of the law is no defence at law" even touches this case. It wasn't the law he was ignorant of, Matt. It was the spiking of his drink that he was ignorant of!
-
How is ignorance of the law relevant? He's been rendered incapable of rational behaviour by someone else's actions, yet still found guilty as though he were in control. People get away with murder - literally - with 'death by dangerous driving' because their self-induced alcohol levels mean they wouldn't be considered competent at the time for a murder charge to stick.
O.
I assume that he would have appealed the judgement since, as you say, he was incapable as a result of an action of a 3rd party.
-
I'm not entirely sure about this, but couldn't spiking someone's drink be considered causing "actual bodily harm" or considered to be an assault? Should the unfortunate individual have had some mishap, that would almost certainly have been the case.
Should the person have been involved in some incident whilst under the influence of alcohol, then the spiker would have been an accessory.
-
LJ and Outrider
Where did I say that I agreed with the principles? I don't but they exist!
Apologies, CMG, that wasn't aimed at you, so much as just thrown out in response to your comment - not intending to shoot the messenger :)
O.
-
LJ and Outrider
Where did I say that I agreed with the principles? I don't but they exist!
Apologies, CMG, that wasn't aimed at you, so much as just thrown out in response to your comment - not intending to shoot the messenger :)
O.
S'OK!
-
I'm not entirely sure about this, but couldn't spiking someone's drink be considered causing "actual bodily harm" or considered to be an assault? Should the unfortunate individual have had some mishap, that would almost certainly have been the case.
Should the person have been involved in some incident whilst under the influence of alcohol, then the spiker would have been an accessory.
I would say it is an assault. The person doing the spiking deliberately poisoned the spikee. Even if the teetotaller didn't lose control of his car and kill somebody, he did lose his driving licence which would have been a matter of a lot of cost and inconvenience.
-
It turns out that it is possible to avoid a ban by claiming your drink was spiked, but it is quite difficult
http://drinkdrivesolicitors.com/avoiding-a-ban/special-reasons/spiked-drinks/