Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Muslim Topic => Topic started by: dadvokat on August 08, 2015, 09:50:00 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06648bx/our-world-the-killing-of-farkhunda
The 'peaceful' religion at work.
people turned into savages by religion?
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No.
It's showing the darker side of human nature which rears its head now and again.
It was started by a spiteful old man who was unable to take criticism and carried on by a mob mentality bolstered along by hatred and prejudice.
It's a bit like years ago in history when any young girl could find herself accused of witchcraft or sorcery, perhaps she was just to pretty for some.
Some people are nasty and want to deliberately hurt others so they spread lies about them, they are in effect poisonious gossipers hiding in the background working up others to do that which they are actually to cowardly to do themselves.
There will always be your spiteful old gossipy caretakers in any society, all it takes is for them to be able to ride on other people's fears and hatred.
That caretaker has a lot to answer for, and IMO he should have been the one hauled up in court.
He's the little drop of poison.
Not the religion, but him personally.
Pity no one held him accountable.
It shows how just a little drop of poison can influence us all and how we should stop ourselves before we believe Ill of another human being.
We can all be manipulated by the little drop of poison if it presented in a certain way.
It's something to learn from and to stop and think before jumping on a bandwagon with everyone else.
And Julie would there have been the same reaction in christian countries if the same accusation of falsely burning the bible had been made in a public place? If not why not?
News reported today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33833385
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/saudi-citizen-carried-mosque-suicide-blast-150808172553868.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/taliban-truck-bomber-kills-people-afghanistan-150806055127072.html
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Pakistan
So Pakistan is a Christian country now Julie? >:(
one swallow does not a summer make...
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Comparing oranges and apples but then you have never been able to make a logical coherent point. Your example is not equivalent to a public lynching due to a perceived religious insult. Back to googling for some more idiotic examples...
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06648bx/our-world-the-killing-of-farkhunda
The 'peaceful' religion at work.
people turned into savages by religion?
D, the fact that Farkhunda was a religious scholar would suggest that her murder was for reasons other than religion.
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Obviously here the murder was caused over a religious issue so was entirely unnecessary. The religion should discourage rather than encourage such emotional attachment to symbols or symbolic acts.
Apart from the religious aspect such mob behaviour is to be expected where law and order have not been established or where they are distrusted due to inefficiency and corruption.
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If the mullah guilty of the lie that brought about this woman's death has not been defrocked and removed from office, it is a corrupt religion.
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If the mullah guilty of the lie that brought about this woman's death has not been defrocked and removed from office, it is a corrupt religion.
Which mullah would that have been, Len. The video refers to a caretaker, not a mullah. About mid-programme, it is also made clear that several imams who made post hoc comments in support of the killing retracted these coments later - AFTER they had been sacked from their posts.
Not sure how or even whether an imam can be 'defrocked'.
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If the mullah guilty of the lie that brought about this woman's death has not been defrocked and removed from office, it is a corrupt religion.
Which mullah would that have been, Len. The video refers to a caretaker, not a mullah. About mid-programme, it is also made clear that several imams who made post hoc comments in support of the killing retracted these coments later - AFTER they had been sacked from their posts.
Not sure how or even whether an imam can be 'defrocked'.
Farkhunda had previously been arguing with a mullah named Zainuddin, in front of a mosque where she worked as a religious teacher,[3] about his practice of selling charms at the Shah-Do Shamshira Mosque, the Shrine of the King of Two Swords,[
I don't know how well wiki can be relied on but this is the guy she was arguing with and who accused her of burning the Koran.
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Farkhunda had previously been arguing with a mullah named Zainuddin, in front of a mosque where she worked as a religious teacher,[3] about his practice of selling charms at the Shah-Do Shamshira Mosque, the Shrine of the King of Two Swords,
I don't know how well wiki can be relied on but this is the guy she was arguing with and who accused her of burning the Koran.
Thanks for that, Len; I took it that you were somehow extrapolating the information from the BBC programme linked to in the OP, where the person she argued with is referred to as a 'caretaker'
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Thanks for that, Len; I took it that you were somehow extrapolating the information from the BBC programme linked to in the OP, where the person she argued with is referred to as a 'caretaker'
I suppose you could argue that a mullah is a caretaker of sorts ... tending the sheep! :)
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Thanks for that, Len; I took it that you were somehow extrapolating the information from the BBC programme linked to in the OP, where the person she argued with is referred to as a 'caretaker'
I suppose you could argue that a mullah is a caretaker of sorts ... tending the sheep! :)
You could well do, but the BBC is usually pretty careful about getting terminology correct.
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Thanks for that, Len; I took it that you were somehow extrapolating the information from the BBC programme linked to in the OP, where the person she argued with is referred to as a 'caretaker'
I suppose you could argue that a mullah is a caretaker of sorts ... tending the sheep! :)
You could well do, but the BBC is usually pretty careful about getting terminology correct.
Well then, maybe all the facts hadn't come to light at the time of the broadcast.
It doesn't really matter though ... there isn't really much we can do about these religious nuts except keep an eye on them.
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Comparing oranges and apples but then you have never been able to make a logical coherent point. Your example is not equivalent to a public lynching due to a perceived religious insult. Back to googling for some more idiotic examples...
I think it is more you have never been able to understand a logical coherent point, when it revolves around anything, that involves one of your prejudices.
::)
So you couldn't find any examples of Christian mobs lynching someone for allegedly burning a bible ?
I suppose in your eyes none of these had anything to do with adherents of a particular religion:
9/11, 7/7, lee rigby killing, Bali, Madrid, Mumbai 26/11, Iraq suicide bombings, beslan school siege, Sharma el sheikh, Tunisia, West gate mall Nairobi, Pakistan Shia and Sufi mosque attacks, etc
Can you find equivalent number of terrorist atrocities committed in the name of any other religious grouping? And of course you do not think IS are all bad Inspite of their
Killing of gays, rape and murder of Yazidis and Shias. Nothing to do with Islam, of course.
As wooly headed as ever eh Julie?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06648bx/our-world-the-killing-of-farkhunda
The 'peaceful' religion at work.
people turned into savages by religion?
D, the fact that Farkhunda was a religious scholar would suggest that her murder was for reasons other than religion.
I thought the program was quite clear that she was falsely accused of burning a Koran and that's why she was lynched. Must say I just couldn't finish watching the program as I felt sick esp when her bloody and battered body was shown. How fecking brave do yOu have to be to beat a defenceless woman to a pulp? Savagery in the name of religion.
Since the 90's around 60 people accused of blasphemy in Pakistan have been murdered.
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So you couldn't find any examples of Christian mobs lynching someone for allegedly burning a bible ?
Have you? It's perhaps worth remembering that Christians don't regard the Bible in the same way as Muslims do the Qu'ran, so would be far less likely to lynch anyone for burning a Bible. In fact, I suspect that more Americans (Christians and non-Christians) would lynch someone for burning the Stars and Stripes than a Bible.
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So you haven't been able to post an intelligent response and have resorted to parrot like accusations. Ah well, Julie you can withdraw back to la la land. Do post something sensible when you are able to engage in intelligent conversation. I won't be holding my breath.. ;)
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The sooner this kind of mindless brain-washing is sent down the filthiest sewer the better. >:( ::)
Mob mentality is awful. >:(
Rose
You really MUST read the history of Islam & how it's forced its way around the world.
We're now seeing it in its worst form.
The video was one of the most repulsive things I've ever seen. ALL men it seems doing this to a helpless woman.
DISGUSTING !!!!!
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This woman loved Islam, just remember that, when you use her as an excuse to bash Islam.
Her murderer loved Islam too, just remember that ... but his interpretation of it was different to hers, so he lied and provoked her dreadful murder.
Do you really not see what evil acts belief in non-existent gods can cause? >:(
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This woman loved Islam, just remember that, when you use her as an excuse to bash Islam.
Her murderer loved Islam too, just remember that ... but his interpretation of it was different to hers, so he lied and provoked her dreadful murder.
Do you really not see what evil acts belief in non-existent gods can cause? >:(
You want to ban creationists from teaching even if they don't mention they are creationist. That sort of thought crime approach seems an evil act to me in the name of your non god.
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This woman loved Islam, just remember that, when you use her as an excuse to bash Islam.
Her murderer loved Islam too, just remember that ... but his interpretation of it was different to hers, so he lied and provoked her dreadful murder.
Do you really not see what evil acts belief in non-existent gods can cause? >:(
You want to ban creationists from teaching even if they don't mention they are creationist. That sort of thought crime approach seems an evil act to me in the name of your non god.
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If you put that in reasonably simple English I will try to answer. Where did I say anything about banning?
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There are the manipulators and the manipulated. Some manipulators will use whatever means necessary to control the manipulated and silence opposition and it often ends in -ism e.g. theism, atheism, communism, nationalism, racism, capitalism, consumerism, tribalism and with the aid of the scientists and technologists the silencing is more efficiently achieved.
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This woman loved Islam, just remember that, when you use her as an excuse to bash Islam.
Her murderer loved Islam too, just remember that ... but his interpretation of it was different to hers, so he lied and provoked her dreadful murder.
Do you really not see what evil acts belief in non-existent gods can cause? >:(
And of course, there are never any murders in western society eh, Len?
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This woman loved Islam, just remember that, when you use her as an excuse to bash Islam.
Her murderer loved Islam too, just remember that ... but his interpretation of it was different to hers, so he lied and provoked her dreadful murder.
Do you really not see what evil acts belief in non-existent gods can cause? >:(
And of course, there are never any murders in western society eh, Len?
Of course there are, but very few of them are due to daft religious beliefs, although they have been in past, unenlightened times.
I thought an intelligent person like yourself would have seen the difference. I'm sorry to see I was mistaken.
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Obviously here the murder was caused over a religious issue so was entirely unnecessary. The religion should discourage rather than encourage such emotional attachment to symbols or symbolic acts.
Apart from the religious aspect such mob behaviour is to be expected where law and order have not been established or where they are distrusted due to inefficiency and corruption.
In some societies religion still has a vice like grip on people's consciousness and any perceived slight will be met with unimaginable brutality and savagery. Religious leaders manipulate the masses by their fiery Friday sermons and will whip people up in a frenzy resulting in disorder and widespread violence.
A quote from Bertrand Russell: "Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
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So you couldn't find any examples of Christian mobs lynching someone for allegedly burning a bible ?
Have you? It's perhaps worth remembering that Christians don't regard the Bible in the same way as Muslims do the Qu'ran, so would be far less likely to lynch anyone for burning a Bible. In fact, I suspect that more Americans (Christians and non-Christians) would lynch someone for burning the Stars and Stripes than a Bible.
Or perhaps islam needs to go through reformation like Christianity did?
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So you couldn't find any examples of Christian mobs lynching someone for allegedly burning a bible ?
Have you? It's perhaps worth remembering that Christians don't regard the Bible in the same way as Muslims do the Qu'ran, so would be far less likely to lynch anyone for burning a Bible. In fact, I suspect that more Americans (Christians and non-Christians) would lynch someone for burning the Stars and Stripes than a Bible.
Or perhaps islam needs to go through reformation like Christianity did?
Because the reformation was a hugely peaceful time. And after it the Native Americans and the Tasmanian aborigines benefitted from that reformation. If you want to indulge in simplistic historical analogies, I suggest you work them out a bit better rather than parroting those badly thought out ones that you might come across in a particularly moronic Daily Express comments column.
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Who rattled your cage Mr insane?
The thread is about the brutal and senseless murder of an innocent woman by religious thugs. I was only responding to hope's comment about something similar happening not likely in Christian societies. I was thinking out aloud on why that might be? It wasn't meant to be a theological and historical Dissertation or critique about reformation. Sheesh...
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Who rattled your cage Mr insane?
The thread is about the brutal and senseless murder of an innocent woman by religious thugs. I was only responding to hope's comment about something similar happening not likely in Christian societies. I was thinking out aloud on why that might be? It wasn't meant to be a theological and historical Dissertation or critique about reformation. Sheesh...
Just if you want to spout jejune and fatuous analogies, used to the extent that if they had a point that it was lost in the depths of a shitheap, then you did that faultlessly.
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Who rattled your cage Mr insane?
The thread is about the brutal and senseless murder of an innocent woman by religious thugs. I was only responding to hope's comment about something similar happening not likely in Christian societies. I was thinking out aloud on why that might be? It wasn't meant to be a theological and historical Dissertation or critique about reformation. Sheesh...
Just if you want to spout jejune and fatuous analogies, used to the extent that if they had a point that it was lost in the depths of a shitheap, then you did that faultlessly.
And you would know all about shitheap coming from where you do? You were saying Mr insane?
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Who rattled your cage Mr insane?
The thread is about the brutal and senseless murder of an innocent woman by religious thugs. I was only responding to hope's comment about something similar happening not likely in Christian societies. I was thinking out aloud on why that might be? It wasn't meant to be a theological and historical Dissertation or critique about reformation. Sheesh...
Just if you want to spout jejune and fatuous analogies, used to the extent that if they had a point that it was lost in the depths of a shitheap, then you did that faultlessly.
And you would know all about shitheap coming from where you do? You were saying Mr insane?
Oh look it's a comment on my sanity using the pseudonym to do that. Wow that would be cutting and witty were it not undercut by the name not claiming sanity. Do you just use shopworn approaches in an sort of post modernist revival of what used to be good before someone used it for the million and ninth time?
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You could start an argument in an empty room, Mr insane.
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You could start an argument in an empty room, Mr insane.
Thankee kind, if tediously unoriginal, sir!
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So you couldn't find any examples of Christian mobs lynching someone for allegedly burning a bible ?
Have you? It's perhaps worth remembering that Christians don't regard the Bible in the same way as Muslims do the Qu'ran, so would be far less likely to lynch anyone for burning a Bible. In fact, I suspect that more Americans (Christians and non-Christians) would lynch someone for burning the Stars and Stripes than a Bible.
Or perhaps islam needs to go through reformation like Christianity did?
Actually I think it might be, though it could easily tip the other way or obliterate itself completely. Either way the ructions are extremely bloody and dragging the rest of us in too.
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Islam's 'true' nature has been evident from when the fake prophet made his first moves in gaining power !!!!
This is what happens.....
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Islam's 'true' nature has been evident from when the fake prophet made his first moves in gaining power !!!!
This is what happens.....
It seems to me that most Islamists are still living in medieval times. When I lived in my last house, in a largely Muslim community, my then, precious, dog, who loved everyone, was shunned by all the local Muslims, even children who were naturally curious about a very large dog, and this because Mohammad said dogs were unclean. I do not, for the life of me, see how anyone can believe God would expect this. And yes, I'm aware how the OT condemns certain creature as as unclean . Just another of the reasons for my antipathy to it.
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BA
Some on earth have been so brainwashed into fear that they cannot move forwards mentally or physically.
I DO understand Christians believing Jesus came to take His 'people' a few steps forward but unfortunately peeing too many off along the way ?!!?!?
Nick
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BA
Some on earth have been so brainwashed into fear that they cannot move forwards mentally or physically.
I DO understand Christians believing Jesus came to take His 'people' a few steps forward but unfortunately peeing too many off along the way ?!!?!?
Nick
It's all about misconceptions with Christianity - and, to be fair, to some extent with Islam, too, with some people, and I don't mean the psychopaths of Isis, who are beyond all consideration. The core message of Jesus was "love and forgiveness," and to lose sight of this is when people start putting the emphasis in the wrong places.
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Yes.
You'd be hard pressed to find much love in The Quran though.
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Yes.
You'd be hard pressed to find much love in The Quran though.
There are a number of Muslims in the Nottingham area, where I am, who are making conscious efforts to be community-spirited, but sadly the small numbers involved do rather highlight the fact that there is not a lot of giving amongst the wider Islamic community.
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When I lived in my last house, in a largely Muslim community, my then, precious, dog, who loved everyone, was shunned by all the local Muslims, even children who were naturally curious about a very large dog, and this because Mohammad said dogs were unclean.
But why did Mohammed say dogs are unclean? It's like the Hindus and their sacred cows. Was the instruction in response to issues that people in the Middle East had with dogs? In India and Nepal, dogs are kept to protect property, not as pets - so many in the sub-continent grow up with a fear of dogs (and that doesn't include the wild, pariah/pye dogs that roam both the rural and urban landscape.)
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When I lived in my last house, in a largely Muslim community, my then, precious, dog, who loved everyone, was shunned by all the local Muslims, even children who were naturally curious about a very large dog, and this because Mohammad said dogs were unclean.
But why did Mohammed say dogs are unclean? It's like the Hindus and their sacred cows. Was the instruction in response to issues that people in the Middle East had with dogs? In India and Nepal, dogs are kept to protect property, not as pets - so many in the sub-continent grow up with a fear of dogs (and that doesn't include the wild, pariah/pye dogs that roam both the rural and urban landscape.)
I do not know why, though a Muslim I knew said that if a dog touched them, or rather, if they came into contact with the saliva of a dog, they had to wash themselves from head to foot before praying again - and they have to pray five times a day, as you will be aware.
"That the Messenger of Allah said: "Whoever acquires a dog - with the exception of a dog to guard livestock, a hunting dog, or a farm dog - each day a Qirat is deducted from his reward." [Abu Dawood (ref.)
"I heard Allah's Apostle(P.B.U.H) saying; "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature (a human being or an animal)." [Hadith - Bukhari 3:515 (ref)
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BA
You have to be VERY careful when quoting Hadiths as, when they don't fit personal criteria or agenda, as with Gabriella, they say they're not reliable. Much as some say about many biblical quotes here.
Muslims can most certainly help other Muslims for ANY reason whatsoever but we NON-Muslims are the KUFFAR or ungrateful & I'm pretty sure Muslims inthe UK find dealing with kaffers a hard but necessary job.
I've know many many Muslims for decades & find, certainly on a NON-religious level, exactly the same as we are. Sounded a bit bad that eh, but you know what I mean !!!
Nick
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ISTR that references to dogs bring "unclean" are all in hadiths rather than the Koran, so, basically, just made up by various random people.
Similar to Hindu sacred cows - the principle is that all life is sacred but, as cows were so important economically people invented various special rules around them based on superstitious outlooks. Imo.
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U
Exactly !! As a cow is MUCH more use alive than a one-off meal, na???
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BA
You have to be VERY careful when quoting Hadiths as, when they don't fit personal criteria or agenda, as with Gabriella, they say they're not reliable. Much as some say about many biblical quotes here.
Muslims can most certainly help other Muslims for ANY reason whatsoever but we NON-Muslims are the KUFFAR or ungrateful & I'm pretty sure Muslims inthe UK find dealing with kaffers a hard but necessary job.
I've know many many Muslims for decades & find, certainly on a NON-religious level, exactly the same as we are. Sounded a bit bad that eh, but you know what I mean !!!
Nick
No, not bad at all. I lived amongst them for 30 years, before I moved in 2012, and I always found them good neighbours. I don't know what it's like now, with all the extremism being so high on the agenda.
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But why did Mohammed say dogs are unclean?
He was very much the cat man, according to the stories.
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But why did Mohammed say dogs are unclean?
He was very much the cat man, according to the stories.
That's right. But in my experience, keeping any animals was not a regular thing.
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But why did Mohammed say dogs are unclean?
He was very much the cat man, according to the stories.
Perhaps rabies was rampant at that time.
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Must have been !!
Certainly in CERTAIN MEN anyway !?!?!? ;)
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as cows were so important economically people invented various special rules around them based on superstitious outlooks. Imo.
Were they invented around superstitious outlooks, or were the outlooks created to reinforce the commonsense attitudes.
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They are a sort of corruption. If the reasons for a particular behaviour change, or facts or logic behind beliefs no longer applies, best to change to improved outlook or methods, not hang on the traditional way out of ignorance or fear.
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So you couldn't find any examples of Christian mobs lynching someone for allegedly burning a bible ?
Have you? It's perhaps worth remembering that Christians don't regard the Bible in the same way as Muslims do the Qu'ran, so would be far less likely to lynch anyone for burning a Bible. In fact, I suspect that more Americans (Christians and non-Christians) would lynch someone for burning the Stars and Stripes than a Bible.
Or perhaps islam needs to go through reformation like Christianity did?
Actually I think it might be, though it could easily tip the other way or obliterate itself completely. Either way the ructions are extremely bloody and dragging the rest of us in too.
Can't mention the R word lest NS like that father hacket character in Father Ted comedy series who reacts when certain words like Feck and arse or girls or drink are used will awaken from his slumber and hurl a volley of abuse denouncing all and sundry. No doubt reformation in Christianity did lead to wide scale violence with millions of people killed in Europe but it led to better things? There needs to be greater tolerance in Islam with more respect for women, gays and non Muslims - more Sufism rather then Wahhabism. More tolerance for apostasy and less for child marriages. More rationalism and logic as opposed to blind subservience and worship of Mohammed. The schism between Sunni and Shia which has divided islam over 1400 years needs to be healed. Islam has failed its adherents with a handful of extremely oil rich countries but with majority of its people being extremely poor with hundreds of thousands trying to flee sub Saharan countries for a better life in Europe. An Islamic enlightenment would be good for its people. More freedoms, secularism, Equality, tolerance...
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For a greater tolerance in Islam one would have to reject 3/4 of what the book 'says' !!!!
It's a book of its time & has little relevence any more, like most religious books they see only a little way into the future !!! Unfortunately ?!!?!?