Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: BashfulAnthony on August 13, 2015, 05:20:37 PM
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I think all this is a very personal thing. Why do they have to air it all in public?
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I think all this is a very personal thing. Why do they have to air it all in public?
Strength in numbers. Knowing that you're not alone and can converse with people in the same situation is an immense source of strength and comfort to many.
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I think all this is a very personal thing. Why do they have to air it all in public?
Strength in numbers. Knowing that you're not alone and can converse with people in the same situation is an immense source of strength and comfort to many.
Form a group or something. There are ways of coming together without needing to air it all on the public stage.
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Why shouldn't people be able to discuss these things in public just because it makes you feel uncomfortable?
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Why shouldn't people be able to discuss these things in public just because it makes you feel uncomfortable?
Who said I'm uncomfortable? As per usual you make assumptions. I am just querying why the subject needs to be aired publicly, when it is an intensely private (no pun intended!) matter.
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I've already explained that. Whether it's being transgendered or suffering from depression or irritable bowel syndrome or having been bereaved or discussing your pets, many people feel helped by being able to discuss things. Within that group, if it's a sensitive issue a lot of people might like to be able to do so anonymously, which the WWW allows for beautifully.
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I've already explained that. Whether it's being transgendered or suffering from depression or irritable bowel syndrome or having been bereaved or discussing your pets, many people feel helped by being able to discuss things. Within that group, if it's a sensitive issue a lot of people might like to be able to do so anonymously, which the WWW allows for beautifully.
Which point I have already addressed. What's your hang-up?
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Someone like Kellie Maloney or Kaitlin Jenner going public can make things so much easier for others who are struggling. And it's not just the trans person themselves, but their families who can benefit. And Kellie Maloney still works in the same career - someone would have noticed sooner or later, trust me.
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Which point I have already addressed. What's your hang-up?
I don't have one - I'd have thought it obvious that someone who doesn't want to see transgender issues discussed in public is the one with the hang-up.
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Which point I have already addressed. What's your hang-up?
I don't have one - I'd have thought it obvious that someone who doesn't want to see transgender issues discussed in public is the one with the hang-up.
No, sorry, I'm not going to be drawn into any more silliness from you. Anyway, you're overdue your afternoon nap.
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What's silly, exactly, about not only being fine with but actively and positively wanting to see transgender issues made more visible in the public arena with a view to its helping people thus affected?
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What's silly, exactly, about not only being fine with but actively and positively wanting to see transgender issues made more visible in the public arena with a view to its helping people thus affected?
Oh dear! Silly because you are simply trying to make an argument where there is none, only a difference of emphasis.
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Implying that trans people shouldn't discuss trans issues in public is a bit more than a mere difference in emphasis.
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Implying that trans people shouldn't discuss trans issues in public is a bit more than a mere difference in emphasis.
I am saying it is a matter more appropriately discussed in private: you say it is better discussed in public. What other differences have we over the subject?
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I don't think it's necessarily a case of being better as that sounds too prescriptive to me; I just don't have a problem with it amongst those who want to.
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I don't think it's necessarily a case of being better as that sounds too prescriptive to me; I just don't have a problem with it amongst those who want to.
And added to that it immediately makes it something they are being told not to talk about. How in the name of King Dial, the best dressed man in Barbados, could Kellie Maloney or Caitlyn Jenner kept quiet about it?
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I don't think it's necessarily a case of being better as that sounds too prescriptive to me; I just don't have a problem with it amongst those who want to.
I don't have a "problem" with it. I simply state an opinion.
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That's right, and that opinion is that discussing trans issues in public is "inappropriate."
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That's right, and that opinion is that discussing trans issues in public is "inappropriate."
Dog with a bone stuff with you, isn't it? Don't try and make something about nothing in particular.
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That's right, and that opinion is that discussing trans issues in public is "inappropriate."
Dog with a bone stuff with you, isn't it? Don't try and make something about nothing in particular.
Grow up, BA. I sometimes feel that Rhi's point about 'male entitlement', Post #5, may be somewhere on the right lines, sometimes I don't. But I think that as a society it is important to discuss the pros and cons of such developments, and to do so in public.
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That's right, and that opinion is that discussing trans issues in public is "inappropriate."
Dog with a bone stuff with you, isn't it? Don't try and make something about nothing in particular.
Grow up, BA. I sometimes feel that Rhi's point about 'male entitlement', Post #5, may be somewhere on the right lines, sometimes I don't. But I think that as a society it is important to discuss the pros and cons of such developments, and to do so in public.
In general terms, yes. But why would someone want to air their very personal situation in public, eh?
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In general terms, yes. But why would someone want to air their very personal situation in public, eh?
Let's takje another area of life altogether. Mental Health has long been the poor relation of the global healthcare system. It is only in the last 3 or 4 years, since the likes of Alistair Campbell, Stephen Fry and other high-profile individuals have spoken out about their MH issues that it has begun to get a higher profile itself. Whether that has translated into improved economic input I'm not sure, but far more people are aware of the issues involved - which can only ever be a good thing. Likewise transgender, cancer, bullying, etc.
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In general terms, yes. But why would someone want to air their very personal situation in public, eh?
Let's takje another area of life altogether. Mental Health has long been the poor relation of the global healthcare system. It is only in the last 3 or 4 years, since the likes of Alistair Campbell, Stephen Fry and other high-profile individuals have spoken out about their MH issues that it has begun to get a higher profile itself. Whether that has translated into improved economic input I'm not sure, but far more people are aware of the issues involved - which can only ever be a good thing. Likewise transgender, cancer, bullying, etc.
Mental Health is an illness and needs to be addressed for the good of all. Transgender is not an illness: unless you are suggesting otherwise.
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Not an illness; but a condition which causes a great deal of difficulty for some people and is comorbid with things that are illnesses such as depression and/or anxiety, even to the point of suicide.
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Not an illness; but a condition which causes a great deal of difficulty for some people and is comorbid with things that are illnesses such as depression and/or anxiety, even to the point of suicide.
That can be true of just about any condition. A teenager with acute acne can be very depressed about it, but would be even more so if he/she had his/her condition aired for all to discuss. Things can be dealt with without the glare of everyone's gaze.
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That can be true of just about any condition. A teenager with acute acne can be very depressed about it, but would be even more so if he/she had his/her condition aired for all to discuss.
Without their consent and against their will, yes, but that's not what we're discussing here is it?
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That can be true of just about any condition. A teenager with acute acne can be very depressed about it, but would be even more so if he/she had his/her condition aired for all to discuss.
Without their consent and against their will, yes, but that's not what we're discussing here is it?
So, are all transgenders happy to be discussed in public? If so, how do you know?
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So, are all transgenders happy to be discussed in public? If so, how do you know?
No, but that's not what was stated either, was it? The ones who presumably are - Caitlyn Jenner and Kellie Maloney being the best known at the moment - are doing good for other trans people.
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So, are all transgenders happy to be discussed in public? If so, how do you know?
No, but that's not what was stated either, was it? The ones who presumably are - Caitlyn Jenner and Kellie Maloney being the best known at the moment - are doing good for other trans people.
So you are privy to all of their opinions, are you? There is an argument that highlighting their situation exposes them to ridicule and even to the danger of abuse, and worse, from our resident Neanderthals.
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So you are privy to all of their opinions, are you?
Are you having even greater difficulties tonight with comprehension of what's actually been written than normal? I never mentioned anything about being privy to the opinions of all transgender people; I'm pointing to the fact that - to use the example of mental health as employed earlier by Hope - when high-profile people such as Stephen Fry, Alistair Campbell, Ruby Wax, Carrie Fisher and so forth speak out about a particular issue, it gets the issue into general circulation and can often embolden non-celebrity people - the average Joe in the street in other words - to discuss it, whether with friends and family or their doctor or all of the above. That's why we regularly have public health campaigns such as the relatively recent Be Clear On Cancer initiative. It gives issues such as these an airing and gets people talking.
There is an argument that highlighting their situation exposes them to ridicule and even to the danger of abuse, and worse, from our resident Neanderthals.
It's an argument I'd love to see you substantiate with evidence. It's the same feeble non-argument as often employed about kids with two parents of the same sex - ooooh no, bad thing, they might get bullied. Well the bullying stops when social attitudes change and you don't get that without having people in the vanguard of changing society for the better. With the possible exception of a very few very elderly racists still hiding out somewhere, you don't see people arguing against couples of different ethnic backgrounds having children in case the kids get bullied. We've moved on and got better than that.
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So you are privy to all of their opinions, are you?
Are you having even greater difficulties tonight with comprehension of what's actually been written than normal? I never mentioned anything about being privy to the opinions of all transgender people; I'm pointing to the fact that - to use the example of mental health as employed earlier by Hope - when high-profile people such as Stephen Fry, Alistair Campbell, Ruby Wax, Carrie Fisher and so forth speak out about a particular issue, it gets the issue into general circulation and can often embolden non-celebrity people - the average Joe in the street in other words - to discuss it, whether with friends and family or their doctor or all of the above. That's why we regularly have public health campaigns such as the relatively recent Be Clear On Cancer incentive. It gives issues such as these an airing and gets people talking.
There is an argument that highlighting their situation exposes them to ridicule and even to the danger of abuse, and worse, from our resident Neanderthals.
It's an argument I'd love to see you substantiate with evidence. It's the same feeble non-argument as often employed about kids with two parents of the same sex - ooooh no, bad thing, they might get bullied. Well the bullying stops when social attitudes change and you don't get that without having people in the vanguard of changing society for the better. With the possible exception of a very few very elderly racists still hiding out somewhere, you don't see people arguing against couples of different ethnic backgrounds having children in case the kids get bullied. We've moved on and got better than that.
You portray yourself as some kind of liberal-minded free thinking, friend of the oppressed. You are a charlatan. You also espouse the dissolute, war monger and acerbic, Mr. Nasty, Hitchens, and his like - which is the real you, as we all know.
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In view of the way in which BA has sidetracked my Transgender thread (and thanks to Prof D for trying to get it back on track, I thought I'd start this thread where the issue of talking about conditions and illnesses in public can be helpful. Perhaps the Mods could transfer the posts that BA put on the TG thread (and others associated with them to here as a way of kick-streting this thread.
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In view of the way in which BA has sidetracked my Transgender thread (and thanks to Prof D for trying to get it back on track, I thought I'd start this thread where the issue of talking about conditions and illnesses in public can be helpful. Perhaps the Mods could transfer the posts that BA put on the TG thread (and others associated with them to here as a way of kick-streting this thread.
I don't think it was just down to me. It takes at least two to side-track a thread. My recent thread was side-tracked to the extent of 120 irrelevant posts. That's life. What's stopping you bringing it back on topic yourself? And if it continues to be side-tracked, then maybe people just aren't interested.
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I think all this is a very personal thing. Why do they have to air it all in public?
Because publicising the condition and the situation normalises it, and normalising it removes the stigma.
The media attention the issue is getting recently is because it's depicted/seen as 'strange' or 'odd' and therefore other people's lives are worthy of attention purely because they are being lived differently.
Once the stigma is removed, by exposure, then everyone can just accept that it happens and move on, leaving people to live the lives they want to live so long as they aren't interfering with anyone else's.
O.
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I don't think it was just down to me.
Yes, it pretty much was and always is.
It takes at least two to side-track a thread.
Doubtless; but when you make (deliberately?) provocative and asinine statements (i.e. that trans people shouldn't discuss trans issues in public) people are going to push back.
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Apologies, Hope, I'd not seen this thread before I posted in the previous one...
I think all this is a very personal thing. Why do they have to air it all in public?
Because publicising the condition and the situation normalises it, and normalising it removes the stigma.
The media attention the issue is getting recently is because it's depicted/seen as 'strange' or 'odd' and therefore other people's lives are worthy of attention purely because they are being lived differently.
Once the stigma is removed, by exposure, then everyone can just accept that it happens and move on, leaving people to live the lives they want to live so long as they aren't interfering with anyone else's.
O.
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I don't think it was just down to me. It takes at least two to side-track a thread. My recent thread was side-tracked to the extent of 120 irrelevant posts. That's life. What's stopping you bringing it back on topic yourself? And if it continues to be side-tracked, then maybe people just aren't interested.
Before you derail this thread as well, BA, I'll just point out that I was busy for much of yesterday; as a result, I didn't have the opportunity to spend as much time here as some others. Hence, I wasn't able to re-rail the previous thread until you and Shaker had had a good ding-dong between yourselves.
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Moderator:
I will shortly add posts to this thread that have been moved from the Transgender thread: this is never ideal of course, and as far as possible these will be the posts about the public discussion of sensitive issues, and I'd hope that this thread won't get side-tracked into other matters.
Hope to add these posts within the next few minues.
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I don't think it was just down to me. It takes at least two to side-track a thread. My recent thread was side-tracked to the extent of 120 irrelevant posts. That's life. What's stopping you bringing it back on topic yourself? And if it continues to be side-tracked, then maybe people just aren't interested.
Before you derail this thread as well, BA, I'll just point out that I was busy for much of yesterday; as a result, I didn't have the opportunity to spend as much time here as some others. Hence, I wasn't able to re-rail the previous thread until you and Shaker had had a good ding-dong between yourselves.
Try and understand: I cannot commit the awful sin of derailing on my own. It takes two, or more, so why single me out? Answer that, please.
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Try and understand: I cannot commit the awful sin of derailing on my own. It takes two, or more, so why single me out? Answer that, please.
Final response on this issue, BA, before this gets any further derailed. You initiated the derail and Shaker, quite legitimately questioned your position. You then decided to push your opinion which then had to be challenged. After 2 or 3 such exchanges, it all began to get a bit farcical, with you clearly failing to understand simple information. As I say, that is the last I want to hear about this issue on this thread. If you wish to discuss whether your opinion has any validity, perhaps you would start a separate thread ('Talking Therapies - a bad idea', perhaps).
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Try and understand: I cannot commit the awful sin of derailing on my own. It takes two, or more, so why single me out? Answer that, please.
Final response on this issue, BA, before this gets any further derailed. You initiated the derail and Shaker, quite legitimately questioned your position. You then decided to push your opinion which then had to be challenged. After 2 or 3 such exchanges, it all began to get a bit farcical, with you clearly failing to understand simple information. As I say, that is the last I want to hear about this issue on this thread. If you wish to discuss whether your opinion has any validity, perhaps you would start a separate thread ('Talking Therapies - a bad idea', perhaps).
Always me, never Shaker, or anyone else to blame. IT TAKES TWO Can't you get that?
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Moderator:
I've just added a bunch of posts from Transgender to here, which are the best fit I can manage with what this thread is about.
I note the posts preceding this about derails - so could we please move from derails to what this thread is supposed to be about!
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What's silly, exactly, about not only being fine with but actively and positively wanting to see transgender issues made more visible in the public arena with a view to its helping people thus affected?
Oh dear! Silly because you are simply trying to make an argument where there is none, only a difference of emphasis.
Well, you're the one who started this subject.
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Well, you're the one who started this subject.
Susan, can we try not to encourage people who are looking to derail the thread. Ta.
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If people are helped by talking about their angst in public, then what is the problem with that for crying out loud? No one is being forced to discuss their problems with others in public if they don't wish to do so!