Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rhiannon on August 25, 2015, 06:33:39 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34039534
The biggest concerns for young women are self harm, eating disorders and poor mental health.
Why is it that so many young women are harassed to the point where they feel shame and/or change how they dress? And what on earth is going on where 39% of respondents to the survey have been in the receiving end of negative comments about their appearance in the week the survey was taken?
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Why is it that so many young women are harassed to the point where they feel shame and/or change how they dress?
What do you mean by "so many"? The article doesn't say that three quarters of girls have been harassed, only that three quarters of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of being harassed that they change their behaviour because of it.
And what on earth is going on where 39% of respondents to the survey have been in the receiving end of negative comments about their appearance in the week the survey was taken?
Couldn't begin to tell you if that is a high or a low figure. How negative do the comments have to be? Would "you look like you've been dragged through a hedge backwards" count as a negative comment about their appearance? I only ask because that was a phrase I heard quite a lot in my teens, usually from my teachers.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34039534
The biggest concerns for young women are self harm, eating disorders and poor mental health.
Why is it that so many young women are harassed to the point where they feel shame and/or change how they dress? And what on earth is going on where 39% of respondents to the survey have been in the receiving end of negative comments about their appearance in the week the survey was taken?
Hardly surprising when they live their lives bombarded by the media with adverts on how to look more beautiful, how to dress, how to live, how to eat, what make-up to use, etc., all of them promoted by big business using beautiful model girls.
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Why is it that so many young women are harassed to the point where they feel shame and/or change how they dress?
What do you mean by "so many"? The article doesn't say that three quarters of girls have been harassed, only that three quarters of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of being harassed that they change their behaviour because of it.
And what on earth is going on where 39% of respondents to the survey have been in the receiving end of negative comments about their appearance in the week the survey was taken?
Couldn't begin to tell you if that is a high or a low figure. How negative do the comments have to be? Would "you look like you've been dragged through a hedge backwards" count as a negative comment about their appearance? I only ask because that was a phrase I heard quite a lot in my teens, usually from my teachers.
Ok, let's say 25% are paranoid about the harassment. That's leaving g us with a half of young women affected by genuine harassment.
How many adults had negative comments about their appearance in a comparable period? Comments from a superior at work would be harassment yet it's ok for teachers to put kids down?
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Ok, let's say 25% are paranoid about the harassment. That's leaving g us with a half of young women affected by genuine harassment.
That's a number you have pulled out of your arse. Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid. The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it. We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.
How many adults had negative comments about their appearance in a comparable period?
I told you I have no idea. That's the problem, we don't know if it's a big number or not.
Comments from a superior at work would be harassment yet it's ok for teachers to put kids down?
I gave you an example of a negative comment. I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.
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As a female poster I find your comment offensive.
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There is a whole, very large, industry which devotes itself to the activity of making women feel bad about themselves.
It is called fashion.
Girls on the verge of womanhood are particularly susceptible to its malign influences. They perceive fashion as an instrument in the process of conformity and belonging. They are - too often - not able to resit its blandishments and be themselves.
School uniforms might be seen as an antidote to its influence, but even these are adjusted, distorted as far as possible to be peceived as fashionable.
In a similar way, they perceive the activities displayed in mainstream pornography as indicating normal sexual practice. Many of these activities show aggression towards women.
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There is a whole, very large, industry which devotes itself to the activity of making women feel bad about themselves.
It is called fashion.
Girls on the verge of womanhood are particularly susceptible to its malign influences. They perceive fashion as an instrument in the process of conformity and belonging. They are - too often - not able to resit its blandishments and be themselves.
School uniforms might be seen as an antidote to its influence, but even these are adjusted, distorted as far as possible to be peceived as fashionable.
In a similar way, they perceive the activities displayed in mainstream pornography as indicating normal sexual practice. Many of these activities show aggression towards women.
So far my girls are both oblivious to fashion, to the extent that my eldest sends me out to buy stuff for school trips etc because she knows I will come back with something vaguely cool enough. The body image thing is a whole other topic though. From year 6 they are taught in school to count calories and being fat is stigmatised. So far I think my girls have been ok and we talk about dieting, eating disorders, airbrushing in magazines and fat shaming a lot, but quite a few of their friends have 'fasting days' or just don't eat at all during the school day, even though they aren't at all overweight.
I've posted on here before about the harassment my eldest got from a classmate last year. Forcing/tricking girls into viewing porn, making rape jokes, asking girls if they'd like to be raped...how normal this is I don't know but the school has now banned the use of smartphones. Still, she regularly gets asked what her bra size is etc.
To answer Jeremy's point, yes, the figures aren't clear cut and I did arbitrarily say maybe a third of those with anxiety about sexual harassment were anxious through paranoia rather than with real cause. But something is going very wrong if young girls are feeling like this. I suspect that social media, smartphones etc are making harassment both easier and more acceptable.
As for negative comments, as you rightly point out HH this is a terribly delicate age and 'joking' comments from family or sarcasm from teachers goes deeper than it should. But again we have social media where people say things that they wouldn't dream of face to face. And teenagers can be incredibly cruel. Many of them of course will see celebrities being trashed in the media for putting on weight or having cellulite, and such unkindness becomes normalised.
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Ok, let's say 25% are paranoid about the harassment. That's leaving g us with a half of young women affected by genuine harassment.
That's a number you have pulled out of your arse. Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid. The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it. We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.
How many adults had negative comments about their appearance in a comparable period?
I told you I have no idea. That's the problem, we don't know if it's a big number or not.
Comments from a superior at work would be harassment yet it's ok for teachers to put kids down?
I gave you an example of a negative comment. I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.
I will give you, JeremyP, an example of a negative comment - you, JeremyP are are an unpleasant mysogynistic arse!
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That's a number you have pulled out of your arse. Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid. The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it. We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.
Yet you don't think to ask "why are they anxious in the first place?"?
I gave you an example of a negative comment. I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.
But neither you nor I, as men, are in the position where our entire lives (as is the case for girls these days) have been a constant exposure to expectations on physical appearance, so it's difficult for us to figure how much of an impact even seemingly innocuous comments will have.
O.
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Jeremy actually read the article Matty and you have as usual resorted to your childish name calling. How about being grown up and tell us where Jeremy is wrong in his understanding of the article and wrong in his questions to Rhi?
Well I have gotten the sense over the years from my sisters and nieces that it is was other girls the same age that were the greatest harassers and critics towards each other.
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As a female poster I find your comment offensive.
In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower? I'm just telling you what the survey really says.
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Jeremy actually read the article Matty and you have as usual resorted to your childish name calling. How about being grown up and tell us where Jeremy is wrong in his understanding of the article and wrong in his questions to Rhi?
Well I have gotten the sense over the years from my sisters and nieces that it is was other girls the same age that were the greatest harassers and critics towards each other.
Childish name calling?
Hmm, at least I vary the names I call people according to the way I view their opinions and comments - you on tge other hand are incapable of using any other negative comment but "witch".
Considering your frequently posted comments about the community in whch you live I am not surprised that "it is was (sic) other girls the same age that were the greatest harassers and critics towards each other" as the brand of Christianity you broadcast on this Forum probably keeps the sexes separated in case they learn that sex between the sexes might be as big a sin as between the same sex but is just as much fun.
Go back to your milk and cookies - you are not ready for grown up food yet and it will soon be time for your nappy, sorry, diaper, change and nap!
When you wake up - get off my back!
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As a female poster I find your comment offensive.
In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower? I'm just telling you what the survey really says.
Yes, in the most unpleasant and mysogynistic way possible!
What is that sound of hoofbeats? Oh, it is the 7th Cavalry (JC) gallopping to your defence!
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That's a number you have pulled out of your arse. Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid. The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it. We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.
Yet you don't think to ask "why are they anxious in the first place?"?
I don't need to, it's because they have either experienced sexual harassment or been told there is a pretty good chance that they will be sexually harassed at some point. I do not know what the split is nor does Rhiannon and the article she linked to does not tell us, in spite of her assertions.
I gave you an example of a negative comment. I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.
But neither you nor I, as men, are in the position where our entire lives (as is the case for girls these days) have been a constant exposure to expectations on physical appearance, so it's difficult for us to figure how much of an impact even seemingly innocuous comments will have.
This is true, but it doesn't alter the fact that Rhiannon is extrapolating conclusions that cannot be justified from the story she posted. Over 40% of girls say they have been subject to negative remarks in the last week. Fine, but that doesn't tell us anything about how bad those remarks were. It also doesn't tell us the context of the remarks.
Pretty much the only thing the survey tells us is that girls concerns about dangers to their mental wellbeing have changed over the years.
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In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower? I'm just telling you what the survey really says.
Yes, in the most unpleasant and mysogynistic way possible!
Why is pointing out that somebody has read too much into a story misogynistic? If you made the same post, I wouldn't have replied in any particularly different way, even though you are not female.
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As a female poster I find your comment offensive.
In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower? I'm just telling you what the survey really says.
Don't patronise me. Your sense of entitlement doesn't give you the right to tell me what I can and can't find offensive. I object to you telling me I've 'pulled things out of my arse'. If you think that is acceptable for you as a man to say to a woman you are seriously deluded.
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Sexual harassment is WRONG and girls, in particular, should be encouraged to make a stand if they are targeted in this way.
Children, girls and boys, need to be brought up to be themselves, NOT slavish followers of whatever fashion is prevalent at the time.
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That's a number you have pulled out of your arse. Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid. The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it. We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.
Yet you don't think to ask "why are they anxious in the first place?"?
I gave you an example of a negative comment. I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.
But neither you nor I, as men, are in the position where our entire lives (as is the case for girls these days) have been a constant exposure to expectations on physical appearance, so it's difficult for us to figure how much of an impact even seemingly innocuous comments will have.
O.
Yes, that's the point I made earlier. Puberty and adolescence are just those ages where a comment meant as a joke can hurt to the quick. And with the best will in the world it's not a time when kids look their best either generally - spots, greasy hair, braces, body shape changes.
It's important too to note that it isn't just boys/men who make inappropriate comments. The most hurtful ones I'm aware of my daughter getting have been from other girls and always are around weight and body issues, even though my daughter's not actually overweight.
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In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower? I'm just telling you what the survey really says.
Yes, in the most unpleasant and mysogynistic way possible!
Why is pointing out that somebody has read too much into a story misogynistic? If you made the same post, I wouldn't have replied in any particularly different way, even though you are not female.
I answer your points re the survey in the second half of post #7.
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As a female poster I find your comment offensive.
In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower? I'm just telling you what the survey really says.
Don't patronise me. Your sense of entitlement doesn't give you the right to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.
I didn't say you couldn't be offended, I asked you why it was offensive to you.
I object to you telling me I've 'pulled things out of my arse'.
That's a colloquial way of saying you made it up. I use it all the time to all sorts of people who make things up.
If you think that is acceptable for you as a man to say to a woman you are seriously deluded.
Are you serious? I'm not allowed to claim you made something up using colourful language just because you are a woman?
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Feel free to tell me I'm making up shit, or I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but you don't have to refer to my body, do you? Do you have any idea what that feels like?
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I am not following in detail the 'discussion' between Rhiannon and jeremyp but I cannot see what is wrong with the pulling out of your arse comment being used specifically to a woman. It isn't specific, it's a generic turn of phrase. It is not a reference to anyone's actual body.
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I am not following in detail the 'discussion' between Rhiannon and jeremyp but I cannot see what is wrong with the pulling out of your arse comment being used specifically to a woman. It isn't specific, it's a generic turn of phrase. It is not a reference to anyone's actual body.
But I do. And I'm the one it was aimed at. Do you think you have the right to tell me if I can be offended or not as well?
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No. But then neither does your offense justify anything. It isn't a comment about your body. It is simply a mocking phrase commonly used to state that the person has no justification for the statement. You may certainly take offence but your reasons for it that you have given are not justified. Do you think I don't have a right to point that out?
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Americanised but still relevant
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pull%20it%20out%20of%20my%20ass
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No, but I think you are wrong. But as O pointed out, neither you nor Jeremy grew up as women, did you?
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Americanised but still relevant
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pull%20it%20out%20of%20my%20ass
So because something is in a dictionary how I felt reading that post last night becomes irrelevant. For fucks sake. Do you know what, all us women should just shut the fuck up every time someone makes a crass comment because when we try to stand up for ourselves it just gets worse. I think I'll leave you to it because you seriously haven't a clue.
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No, but I think you are wrong. But as O pointed out, neither you nor Jeremy grew up as women, did you?
Ooooo! I don't know about that sweetheart! (said in a Frankie Howerd or Kenneth Williams voice!)
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No, but I think you are wrong. But as O pointed out, neither you nor Jeremy grew up as women, did you?
And? I am taking any position on the main point of the thread so Outrider's point is irrelevant here. If you think I am wrong, explain why? It is as I have linked to a common expression though usually uses ass rather than arse? Are you saying that jeremyp could use this expression to johnny canoe and it would be OK?
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I haven't said anything about you having to shut up, so please stop with the strawman. That you were upset, I am sorry for but it doesn't make you right. Simply taking offence does not mean the other person intended to offend or that you are in the right.
There would be people who would take offence at a woman posting on a public forum; should I give credence to their view because they take offence?
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Feel free to tell me I'm making up shit, or I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but you don't have to refer to my body, do you? Do you have any idea what that feels like?
Rhiannon, it has nothing to do with your body specifically. It's a general colloquial term that means "you made it up". It's no more body shaming than saying "you've really put your foot in it" or "cut your nose off to spite your face".
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pull+it+out+of+my+ass
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First, let's get off the pointing at the evil America and admit that London and Paris are fashion hubs.
To Matty, well sorry but a monkey on a rock could put out better posts than you.
To Rhi, have you not shared my sister's experience? Each one has always made comments about how their worst critics were other girls. And guess what? One of my nieces has been bullied by the same group of three girls since grade 6. They are all now 15 years old. That's her hell, going to school and running into that group. What brightens her day is when a friend will tell her this boy or that boy likes her.
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First, let's get off the pointing at the evil America and admit that London and Paris are fashion hubs.
No way!
As long as you keep slagging off Britain I will keep slagging off that cess-pit to the south of you!
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Silly Matty,
I love the UK. I have no tolerance for some who gleefully attack the USA, acting like they have a superior society on their little island. Fact is that everything you attack them for can be found on your island or someplace in your EU. The American fashion industry is a fun target for the likes of you. Gleefully looking down you pointy nose and blaming for some of the woes women face. Yet the truth is that industry usually follows the leads of your London and your Paris. Yet you won't address that truth because it means bringing some blame right home to your little island. You refuse to see the picture. But thankfully a monkey on a rock can see the whole picture and knows the difference between your chicken shit and chicken salad. Thanks again LBJ for those words you left us with.
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Silly Matty,
I love the UK. I have no tolerance for some who gleefully attack the USA, acting like they have a superior society on their little island. Fact is that everything you attack them for can be found on your island or someplace in your EU. The American fashion industry is a fun target for the likes of you. Gleefully looking down you pointy nose and blaming for some of the woes women face. Yet the truth is that industry usually follows the leads of your London and your Paris. Yet you won't address that truth because it means bringing some blame right home to your little island. You refuse to see the picture. But thankfully a monkey on a rock can see the whole picture and knows the difference between your chicken shit and chicken salad. Thanks again LBJ for those words you left us with.
YAWN! BORING!
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Silly Matty,
I love the UK. I have no tolerance for some who gleefully attack the USA, acting like they have a superior society on their little island. Fact is that everything you attack them for can be found on your island or someplace in your EU. The American fashion industry is a fun target for the likes of you. Gleefully looking down you pointy nose and blaming for some of the woes women face. Yet the truth is that industry usually follows the leads of your London and your Paris. Yet you won't address that truth because it means bringing some blame right home to your little island. You refuse to see the picture. But thankfully a monkey on a rock can see the whole picture and knows the difference between your chicken shit and chicken salad. Thanks again LBJ for those words you left us with.
YAWN! BORING!
Agreed! It looks like the 'monkey on the rock' has now usurped the position of 'to funny you'. A new toy for JC to play with. :)
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Silly Matty,
I love the UK. I have no tolerance for some who gleefully attack the USA, acting like they have a superior society on their little island. Fact is that everything you attack them for can be found on your island or someplace in your EU. The American fashion industry is a fun target for the likes of you. Gleefully looking down you pointy nose and blaming for some of the woes women face. Yet the truth is that industry usually follows the leads of your London and your Paris. Yet you won't address that truth because it means bringing some blame right home to your little island. You refuse to see the picture. But thankfully a monkey on a rock can see the whole picture and knows the difference between your chicken shit and chicken salad. Thanks again LBJ for those words you left us with.
Except, JC, fashion does not necessarily mean simply haute couture.
Fashion refers to all kinds of social influences, trends and activities which take hold of and begin to determine the behaviour of people. I'll give you two examples - and both of these have originated from the USA.
1 The use of internet-based social messaging systems such as Facebook and Twitter which can be used by inadequate individuals to secretly bully other people.
2 The fashion - for that is what it is - of treating the removal of pubic hair as normal. This is a practice which has been created by the pornography industry: because people in porn have no pubic hair (to give the punters a better view) teenage girls (and boys) believe it to be the norm for all people. People who retain their pubic (and other body hair) are weird and unhygienic.
These are the sorts of fashion influence this thread is concerned with, not Paris and London. And these fashion influences affect the ways in which teenage girls are forced to present themselves.
Why don't you ask your monkey on its rock for advice on the content of your contributions before you post them? It is possible you wouldn't end up looking too funny.
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Silly Matty,
I love the UK. I have no tolerance for some who gleefully attack the USA, acting like they have a superior society on their little island. Fact is that everything you attack them for can be found on your island or someplace in your EU. The American fashion industry is a fun target for the likes of you. Gleefully looking down you pointy nose and blaming for some of the woes women face. Yet the truth is that industry usually follows the leads of your London and your Paris. Yet you won't address that truth because it means bringing some blame right home to your little island. You refuse to see the picture. But thankfully a monkey on a rock can see the whole picture and knows the difference between your chicken shit and chicken salad. Thanks again LBJ for those words you left us with.
We are superior in the fact that we don't worship the gun in the way the Americans do, and our Police aren't routinely armed.
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Why don't you ask your monkey on its rock for advice on the content of your contributions before you post them? It is possible you wouldn't end up looking too funny.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Spot on!
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Why don't you ask your monkey on its rock for advice on the content of your contributions before you post them? It is possible you wouldn't end up looking too funny.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Spot on!
Wot LJ said!
8)
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Oh no way Harrow, and any monkey on a rock would agree with me. I would like you name some of your hairy English supermodels please. Perhaps name a few hairy legged and hairy arm pit ladies in Paris making a living being a supermodel for the Frence fashion industry. Cause any warm blooded monkey on a rock would love to know them.
Oh and I just bet, and I'm sure you actually know this, your little island has quite a big smut/porn/pervert industry going. Again a silly Brit looking down their noses and blaming America cause they haven't the spine to examine the guilt of their Europe.
Leo, yes, I know why those monkeys down your way stay safe high up that rock. Now have a cookie and shuffle out into that great Spanish sunshine.
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Oh and I just bet, and I'm sure you actually know this, your little island has quite a big smut/porn/pervert industry going.
Hear hear! :)
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Oh no way Harrow, and any monkey on a rock would agree with me. I would like you name some of your hairy English supermodels please. Perhaps name a few hairy legged and hairy arm pit ladies in Paris making a living being a supermodel for the Frence fashion industry. Cause any warm blooded monkey on a rock would love to know them.
Oh and I just bet, and I'm sure you actually know this, your little island has quite a big smut/porn/pervert industry going. Again a silly Brit looking down their noses and blaming America cause they haven't the spine to examine the guilt of their Europe.
Leo, yes, I know why those monkeys down your way stay safe high up that rock. Now have a cookie and shuffle out into that great Spanish sunshine.
Does the nurse know you've been at the computer again? She specifically asked the monkey not to let you near it.
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So nobody wants to acknowledge the damage the European fashion industry has done to women? I'm so shocked! Can you at least agree that we can blame you English for tweed? And let's all blame Morocco for those stupid babouches? I know the monkeys sitting on rocks would agree to that. Cause they're smart.
Shaker, no surprise about your love for the smut industry. That's what keeps you pretending that you are happy down in your basement.
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Can you at least agree that we can blame you English for tweed?
That's Scottish ::)
Shaker, no surprise about your love for the smut industry. That's what keeps you pretending that you are happy down in your basement.
Don't actually have a 'basement' (I assume you mean cellar). Few modern houses do.
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So nobody wants to acknowledge the damage the European fashion industry has done to women?
But Johnny, this thread wasn't about the fashion industry. It was about the effect of trends in behaviour which are taken up by a lot of people - a rather different meaning of fashion. Silly you, too funny!
I'll bet you believe, that, when they are doing ..... it ..... women wear high heel shoes. The shoes complement their lack of body hair.
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Silly Shaker, Tweed spread like an STD because of the English, not the Scots. It was the English upper class prancing around in it, strutting like love sick peacocks . Good modern homes have basements, homes built on the cheap or on old bogs or on sand or old garbage dumps or areas where everything grows moldy quick (wink). Too funny you. Interesting you claiming to live in a modern home. You are ok with destroying animal habitat for the comfort of your butt? Na, I think you love animals more than your butt and live in an old house with a dirt basement. All modern homes of any value have big fully developed basement over here in my area of the New World.
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Silly Shaker, Tweed spread like an STD because of the English, not the Scots. It was the English upper class prancing around in it, strutting like love sick peacocks.
Tweed was or is a Scottish invention, not English as you claimed. It's true that it was widely worn by English aristocracy for shooting, but that too typically took place in Scotland, grouse moorland being somewhat sketchy down Hampshire way.
This is my country and I know its geography - you don't.
Too funny you.
I had a feeling you might say that.