Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on August 29, 2015, 02:06:17 PM
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Hi everyone,
Some time back..Floo had posted on the Christian board that she had experienced a dramatic cure (my words) for her frozen shoulder when she went into her field (agricultural field I mean) one day. I understand that the field was known for such cures and that many people would request to be allowed to walk into the field to experience such 'magical' cures for their ailments.
In my opinion, this kind of cure is due to the biofield (aura) that surrounds all of us like a magnetic field. If the flow of energy in this field is hindered in any way it can result in ailments. If the flow of energy is corrected it can cure ailments miraculously. This phenomenon is not 'supernatural' but is a very natural phenomenon that science is not yet aware of.
Most faith healings and placing of hands and other such treatments such as pranic healing, reiki and even acupuncture.....are built around this phenomenon of the biofield. It is called Prana in Hinduism, Chi in China and Ki in Japan.
I wish Floo would elaborate here about her experience and let us know what exactly happened to her and to others she has seen. It is important that we don't shy away from such abnormal experiences. It could lead us to new and exciting discoveries....and perhaps help scientists to identify new ways of treating ailments.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Our previous property had a field, where two weeks after we moved there in 1997 an Irish couple on a walking tour of our area claimed to have seen the Virgin Mary and been cured of their ailments. The man's frozen shoulder and the woman's cataract. My husband and I were highly sceptical, to put it mildly. However, after the now defunct 'News of the World' printed the story, even though we refused to give that horrible rag an interview, our pilgrims started to arrive and our rural lane became like a mini Lourdes for a time! We had visitors from all over the UK, Ireland and even some from the US! Other sightings of Mary were reported and cures claimed. On May 17th 1997 I saw, for a second or two, an image which looked like the picture book version of Mary, I am sure the woman looked nothing like that in reality, I am convinced my mind was playing tricks!
Some years later I had a very painful frozen shoulder, which the medics weren't managing to sort out. Someone suggested I should see if our field could 'cure' it, for a laugh I gave it a go. Within five minutes my shoulder seemed easier, and by the next day it was completely better, I have had no trouble with it since then. I am convinced that my body's own healing mechanisms kicked in, nothing supernatural.
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She has been seen in tree stumps from time to time and several years ago the face of Christ appeared on somebody's grilled cheese.
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Our previous property had a field, where two weeks after we moved there in 1997 an Irish couple on a walking tour of our area claimed to have seen the Virgin Mary and been cured of their ailments. The man's frozen shoulder and the woman's cataract. My husband and I were highly sceptical, to put it mildly. However, after the now defunct 'News of the World' printed the story, even though we refused to give that horrible rag an interview, our pilgrims started to arrive and our rural lane became like a mini Lourdes for a time! We had visitors from all over the UK, Ireland and even some from the US! Other sightings of Mary were reported and cures claimed. On May 17th 1997 I saw, for a second or two, an image which looked like the picture book version of Mary, I am sure the woman looked nothing like that in reality, I am convinced my mind was playing tricks!
Some years later I had a very painful frozen shoulder, which the medics weren't managing to sort out. Someone suggested I should see if our field could 'cure' it, for a laugh I gave it a go. Within five minutes my shoulder seemed easier, and by the next day it was completely better, I have had no trouble with it since then. I am convinced that my body's own healing mechanisms kicked in, nothing supernatural.
Thanks a lot Floo, for elaborating. It is important that we don't put our own spin on such experiences based on our own beliefs and disbeliefs. We should take the experience on face value and respect the fact that some thing unusual has happened.
That is how we can move forward, make new discoveries and learn new things.
What Floo has said is not the only experience of its kind. There are many such experiences world over, across cultural barriers....and many people who bring about such cures through faith healing and such other.
Whether the figure Floo saw was actually Virgin Mary is not the important thing because we will never know. Our mind is the means to our experiences...so reality and mental phenomena are connected. But it would be a mistake to dismiss it away as just imagination.
Floo....I am surprised you have not followed up on this phenomenon and tried to have more such experiences by visiting the place more often. It could have opened up a whole new world to you and your family.
Cheers.
Sriram
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She has been seen in tree stumps from time to time and several years ago the face of Christ appeared on somebody's grilled cheese.
That guy's face, resembling the image on the Turin Shroud, appeared on the stone fireplace of our previous property in 2005!
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Our previous property had a field, where two weeks after we moved there in 1997 an Irish couple on a walking tour of our area claimed to have seen the Virgin Mary and been cured of their ailments. The man's frozen shoulder and the woman's cataract. My husband and I were highly sceptical, to put it mildly. However, after the now defunct 'News of the World' printed the story, even though we refused to give that horrible rag an interview, our pilgrims started to arrive and our rural lane became like a mini Lourdes for a time! We had visitors from all over the UK, Ireland and even some from the US! Other sightings of Mary were reported and cures claimed. On May 17th 1997 I saw, for a second or two, an image which looked like the picture book version of Mary, I am sure the woman looked nothing like that in reality, I am convinced my mind was playing tricks!
Some years later I had a very painful frozen shoulder, which the medics weren't managing to sort out. Someone suggested I should see if our field could 'cure' it, for a laugh I gave it a go. Within five minutes my shoulder seemed easier, and by the next day it was completely better, I have had no trouble with it since then. I am convinced that my body's own healing mechanisms kicked in, nothing supernatural.
Thanks a lot Floo, for elaborating. It is important that we don't put our own spin on such experiences based on our own beliefs and disbeliefs. We should take the experience on face value and respect the fact that some thing unusual has happened.
That is how we can move forward, make new discoveries and learn new things.
What Floo has said is not the only experience of its kind. There are many such experiences world over, across cultural barriers....and many people who bring about such cures through faith healing and such other.
Whether the figure Floo saw was actually Virgin Mary is not the important thing because we will never know. Our mind is the means to our experiences...so reality and mental phenomena are connected. But it would be a mistake to dismiss it away as just imagination.
Floo....I am surprised you have not followed up on this phenomenon and tried to have more such experiences by visiting the place more often. It could have opened up a whole new world to you and your family.
Cheers.
Sriram
I am quite sure there is a very natural explanation for the unusual!
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Thanks a lot Floo, for elaborating. It is important that we don't put our own spin on such experiences based on our own beliefs and disbeliefs. We should take the experience on face value and respect the fact that some thing unusual has happened.
That is how we can move forward, make new discoveries and learn new things.
What Floo has said is not the only experience of its kind. There are many such experiences world over, across cultural barriers....and many people who bring about such cures through faith healing and such other.
Whether the figure Floo saw was actually Virgin Mary is not the important thing because we will never know. Our mind is the means to our experiences...so reality and mental phenomena are connected. But it would be a mistake to dismiss it away as just imagination.
Floo....I am surprised you have not followed up on this phenomenon and tried to have more such experiences by visiting the place more often. It could have opened up a whole new world to you and your family.
Cheers.
Sriram
I am quite sure there is a very natural explanation for the unusual!
That's precisely what I am saying too. But what exactly is 'natural' and what its boundaries are... is debatable. The mind is still a mystery. Its unlikely that we will be able to fix clear limits and categorize all phenomena any time soon.
As a friend I would suggest that you don't stay within your comfort zone and try to visit the place again. I am sure it'll help you in more ways than one.
Maybe some others on here could also visit the place and experience it for themselves, if it is not very far from their home.
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My personal view is that there is a lot which is natural but that we don't yet have the capacity to study or measure, so it gets dismissed as woo.
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My personal view is that there is a lot which is natural but that we don't yet have the capacity to study or measure, so it gets dismissed as woo.
Yes....but natural phenomena can also be quite extraordinary and 'magical'. It need not all be mundane. There is a difference between 'natural' and 'ordinary'.
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Our previous property had a field, where two weeks after we moved there in 1997 an Irish couple on a walking tour of our area claimed to have seen the Virgin Mary and been cured of their ailments. The man's frozen shoulder and the woman's cataract. My husband and I were highly sceptical, to put it mildly. However, after the now defunct 'News of the World' printed the story, even though we refused to give that horrible rag an interview, our pilgrims started to arrive and our rural lane became like a mini Lourdes for a time! We had visitors from all over the UK, Ireland and even some from the US! Other sightings of Mary were reported and cures claimed. On May 17th 1997 I saw, for a second or two, an image which looked like the picture book version of Mary, I am sure the woman looked nothing like that in reality, I am convinced my mind was playing tricks!
Some years later I had a very painful frozen shoulder, which the medics weren't managing to sort out. Someone suggested I should see if our field could 'cure' it, for a laugh I gave it a go. Within five minutes my shoulder seemed easier, and by the next day it was completely better, I have had no trouble with it since then. I am convinced that my body's own healing mechanisms kicked in, nothing supernatural.
I thought that you were atheist?
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She has been seen in tree stumps from time to time and several years ago the face of Christ appeared on somebody's grilled cheese.
Apparently WH Auden's face has been sighted on a scrotum.
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She has been seen in tree stumps from time to time and several years ago the face of Christ appeared on somebody's grilled cheese.
Apparently WH Auden's face has been sighted on a scrotum.
That happened on a regular basis while he was alive.
Allegedly.
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Our previous property had a field, where two weeks after we moved there in 1997 an Irish couple on a walking tour of our area claimed to have seen the Virgin Mary and been cured of their ailments. The man's frozen shoulder and the woman's cataract. My husband and I were highly sceptical, to put it mildly. However, after the now defunct 'News of the World' printed the story, even though we refused to give that horrible rag an interview, our pilgrims started to arrive and our rural lane became like a mini Lourdes for a time! We had visitors from all over the UK, Ireland and even some from the US! Other sightings of Mary were reported and cures claimed. On May 17th 1997 I saw, for a second or two, an image which looked like the picture book version of Mary, I am sure the woman looked nothing like that in reality, I am convinced my mind was playing tricks!
Some years later I had a very painful frozen shoulder, which the medics weren't managing to sort out. Someone suggested I should see if our field could 'cure' it, for a laugh I gave it a go. Within five minutes my shoulder seemed easier, and by the next day it was completely better, I have had no trouble with it since then. I am convinced that my body's own healing mechanisms kicked in, nothing supernatural.
I thought that you were atheist?
Are atheists somehow exempt from having odd experiences?
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Why have no Christians commented on this thread I wonder?! Maybe some of them could visit the place, if they or their kin happen to have some chronic ailments.
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Our previous property had a field, where two weeks after we moved there in 1997 an Irish couple on a walking tour of our area claimed to have seen the Virgin Mary and been cured of their ailments. . . On May 17th 1997 I saw, for a second or two, an image which looked like the picture book version of Mary, I am sure the woman looked nothing like that in reality, I am convinced my mind was playing tricks!
Some years later I had a very painful frozen shoulder, which the medics weren't managing to sort out. Someone suggested I should see if our field could 'cure' it, for a laugh I gave it a go. Within five minutes my shoulder seemed easier, and by the next day it was completely better, I have had no trouble with it since then. I am convinced that my body's own healing mechanisms kicked in, nothing supernatural.
I thought that you were atheist?
Are atheists somehow exempt from having odd experiences?
Floo has stated that she only experienced this becasue she tried to test the validity of the claim that the Virgin was present oin the field and found that the promised cure was achieved.
To attribute the cure of her malaise to the Virgin and be an atheist is, to my mind, hypocritical.
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Yes....but natural phenomena can also be quite extraordinary and 'magical'. It need not all be mundane. There is a difference between 'natural' and 'ordinary'.
In 1992, many of the inhabitants of Tansen, a town in Nepal claimed to have seen an image of Christ on the cross in the sky. Apparently, it was a completely clear day, so no weird cloud formations could be blamed; the majority of them would never have seen a picture of Christ on the cross - the nearest thing they would have seen would have been an empty cross had they had reason to visit the mission hospital in the town, and furthermore, that majority were self-confessed Hindus.
http://bit.ly/1LDb7Gf
I appreciate that this is from a Catholic media outlet; I used to have a copy of the article from the Gorkhapatra, the Nepali language national newspaper of the time, but doubt whether anyone here would be able to read it, even if I could find it. Oddly enough, it didn't make it into The Rising Nepal - the Gorkhapatra's English-language sister paper.
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Why have no Christians commented on this thread I wonder?! Maybe some of them could visit the place, if they or their kin happen to have some chronic ailments.
Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury until 2012, has spoken about the idea of 'thin places', a Celtic Christian concept that teaches that physical locations exist in which God's presence is more accessible than elsewhere, places where heaven and earth seem to touch, where the line between holy and human meet for a moment. Often in hilly/mountainous country, Floo's field might have been one of these.
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Why have no Christians commented on this thread I wonder?! Maybe some of them could visit the place, if they or their kin happen to have some chronic ailments.
Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury until 2012, has spoken about the idea of 'thin places', a Celtic Christian concept that teaches that physical locations exist in which God's presence is more accessible than elsewhere, places where heaven and earth seem to touch, where the line between holy and human meet for a moment. Often in hilly/mountainous country, Floo's field might have been one of these.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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I appreciate that this is from a Catholic media outlet ...
No chance of bias or special interest there, thank goodness.
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Why have no Christians commented on this thread I wonder?! Maybe some of them could visit the place, if they or their kin happen to have some chronic ailments.
Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury until 2012, has spoken about the idea of 'thin places', a Celtic Christian concept that teaches that physical locations exist in which God's presence is more accessible than elsewhere, places where heaven and earth seem to touch, where the line between holy and human meet for a moment. Often in hilly/mountainous country, Floo's field might have been one of these.
Rather like the portkeys that Harry Potter and friends use to travel from one place to another.
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Dear Hope,
Thin places.
Genesis 32.
Places where you can be nearer to God, I think this is also a pagan thing, could be one reason why so many Christian Churches are built on old pagan sites.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Hope,
Thin places.
Genesis 32.
Places where you can be nearer to God, I think this is also a pagan thing, could be one reason why so many Christian Churches are built on old pagan sites.
Gonnagle.
It seems to have rather more to do with one religion trying to supplant earlier ones - there's a well-known letter from some Pope or other instructing one of his lackeys to build chapels on the site of pagan places of worship.
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Dear Shaker,
And of course that could be another reason. ???
The spirit of Hitchen is alive and well. ;)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Hope,
Thin places.
Genesis 32.
Places where you can be nearer to God, I think this is also a pagan thing, could be one reason why so many Christian Churches are built on old pagan sites.
Gonnagle.
It seems to have rather more to do with one religion trying to supplant earlier ones - there's a well-known letter from some Pope or other instructing one of his lackeys to build chapels on the site of pagan places of worship.
Damn. The naturally para-scientific and socialist British working man being ridden roughshod by foreign globalist commercial interests again.
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Dear Hope,
Thin places.
Genesis 32.
Places where you can be nearer to God, I think this is also a pagan thing, could be one reason why so many Christian Churches are built on old pagan sites.
Gonnagle.
Personally I think of Babbity's as a thin place
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Dear Sane,
AYE!! Definitely. ;D
And I am beginning to think you have hollow legs. ;)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sane,
AYE!! Definitely. ;D
And I am beginning to think you have hollow legs. ;)
Gonnagle.
John and I went on to Bar Gandolfi for another couple
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Dear Sane,
1. I am getting to old.
2. I am a lightweight.
I will go with number one. :P
Gonnagle.
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No chance of bias or special interest there, thank goodness.
No, Shaker, because - as was pointed out in the article - the reports came from Hindu witnesses. In fact, at the time (possibly still the case today) there was no resident Catholic population in the town.
Furthermore, it was reported in the national Nepali-language newspaper of the time, a paper that was and remains very pro-Hindu and anti-Christian.
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What's wrong with all of you? Why are you discussing rumors, news reports and so on.....from Nepal that too?! Here we have a real life case directly from the horse's mouth! Its happened in Floo's property, she has herself experienced it and whats more, she is a confirmed atheist.
Why not discuss this case.... or some of you visit her field? If I had been in the UK I would have seized this chance for a first hand experience. You guys keep asking for evidence...well...here's your evidence. Why not go and check for yourselves?!
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What's wrong with all of you? Why are you discussing rumors, news reports and so on.....from Nepal that too?! Here we have a real life case directly from the horse's mouth! Its happened in Floo's property, she has herself experienced it and whats more, she is a confirmed atheist.
Why not discuss this case.... or some of you visit her field? If I had been in the UK I would have seized this chance for a first hand experience. You guys keep asking for evidence...well...here's your evidence. Why not go and check for yourselves?!
Oh for heaven's sake Sriram, I have stated my sceptism, and also the people who bought the place three years ago wouldn't be thrilled to have a load of 'pilgrims' turning up at the field!
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To Matty,
Now read this very slowly. PAY ATTENTION! floo is agnostic! She has never claimed to be an atheist.
Sriram, as a Christian I'll tell ya this, Mary is not appearing anywhere on earth and Christ is NOT putting His face on Dicky Dawkin's grilled cheese.
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What's wrong with all of you? Why are you discussing rumors, news reports and so on.....from Nepal that too?! Here we have a real life case directly from the horse's mouth! Its happened in Floo's property, she has herself experienced it and whats more, she is a confirmed atheist.
Why not discuss this case.... or some of you visit her field? If I had been in the UK I would have seized this chance for a first hand experience. You guys keep asking for evidence...well...here's your evidence. Why not go and check for yourselves?!
Oh for heaven's sake Sriram, I have stated my sceptism, and also the people who bought the place three years ago wouldn't be thrilled to have a load of 'pilgrims' turning up at the field!
Your scepticism is a mindset. Its a programming. You should work on it. :)
You yourself have stated that the cure did happen (which is pretty honest of you, I must say). This in fact, proves that your scepticism is something you yourself cannot help. Its not for want of evidence....but is in spite of your own experience. You are virtually trapped in your own scepticism.
Its like hating someone or being immensely attracted to someone in spite of all evidence and all argument against it. We often become blind due to strong mindsets for or against something.
The owners might or might not object. But people who want evidence could try.
What's the use of people merely sitting here and yakking on and on about proof and evidence and bible bashing all the time when something like this is happening right in front of you?!!!
The religious folk on here have also been surprisingly reticent on this. Too much like the real thing I suppose. Probably they feel more comfortable talking about 2000 year old events and miracles rather than real ones of today. If Jesus really comes they would probably chase him away. They might prefer the imaginary one to the real one. ;)
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Dear Sriram,
Yeah!! You tell em! They pesky Christians are a crazy mixed up lot.
Problem is for the proddys its the whole Virgin Mary thing and the Tim's, well they need it verified by some kind of papal certificate.
Gonnagle.
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What's wrong with all of you? Why are you discussing rumors, news reports and so on.....from Nepal that too?! Here we have a real life case directly from the horse's mouth! Its happened in Floo's property, she has herself experienced it and whats more, she is a confirmed atheist.
Well, I thought it might be useful to have a second example of eye-witness reportage of this kind of event, Sriram.
Why not discuss this case.... or some of you visit her field? If I had been in the UK I would have seized this chance for a first hand experience. You guys keep asking for evidence...well...here's your evidence. Why not go and check for yourselves?!
As far as I'm aware, Sri, Floo has never told 'us' (and she also recounted it some years ago on a different forum I used to be a member of) where this event took place. I believe that someone on that other forum asked her the location, but that she was not forthcoming.
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She has been seen in tree stumps from time to time and several years ago the face of Christ appeared on somebody's grilled cheese.
That guy's face, resembling the image on the Turin Shroud, appeared on the stone fireplace of our previous property in 2005!
Cover the whole of your face with coloured powder, and then wrap a white sheet round your head in the form of the top part of a shroud. When you take it off I can assure you it will look nothing like you, as the face will be much wider and fatter than yours ... certainly not long and thin as is the reputed imprint of Jesus's head.
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Your scepticism is a mindset. Its a programming.
Well, Sriram, I can't speak for Floo. But I can tell you that for me skepticism is far from being a mindset. It evolved during my 20s and came as a huge relief from the constant, incessant, non-stop programming which occurred during my infancy, childhood and adolescence.
Such is the influence of family, church, religion-based primary school ... and so on. That is programming.
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Such is the influence of family, church, religion-based primary school ... and so on. That is programming.
So how would you explain - on the programmming/scepticism continuum - those who grow up in an atheist family and context decide, in later life, to change to a religious mindset?
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To Matty,
Now read this very slowly. PAY ATTENTION! floo is agnostic! She has never claimed to be an atheist.
YAWN! BORING!
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Well yes, it was so much more fun for you to think floo is an atheist and in your view a hypocrite. Sometimes the facts are a yawn and are boring to children that like to make stuff up in their little heads.
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What's wrong with all of you? Why are you discussing rumors, news reports and so on.....from Nepal that too?! Here we have a real life case directly from the horse's mouth! Its happened in Floo's property, she has herself experienced it and whats more, she is a confirmed atheist.
Well, I thought it might be useful to have a second example of eye-witness reportage of this kind of event, Sriram.
Why not discuss this case.... or some of you visit her field? If I had been in the UK I would have seized this chance for a first hand experience. You guys keep asking for evidence...well...here's your evidence. Why not go and check for yourselves?!
As far as I'm aware, Sri, Floo has never told 'us' (and she also recounted it some years ago on a different forum I used to be a member of) where this event took place. I believe that someone on that other forum asked her the location, but that she was not forthcoming.
The fact that Floo has talked about it is to her credit. Most atheists would have kept quiet.
My point is that atheists keep asking for evidence and still never bother to discuss or investigate such matters. They are happy living in their comfort zone and prefer that their mindset is not disturbed.
Similarly, many religious people find such incidents as 'too near home' and get scared. They prefer the miracles in the books to the real ones.
All these are mindset problems and are not easily resolved. No one likes strange new things infringing on their deeply embedded ideas.
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Such is the influence of family, church, religion-based primary school ... and so on. That is programming.
So how would you explain - on the programmming/scepticism continuum - those who grow up in an atheist family and context decide, in later life, to change to a religious mindset?
Coming from you, Hope, this is a stupid question.
Are you so full of religious bile that you cannot accept that people have free choices as to what they choose to believe?
Write out 100 times:
Atheist does not mean anti-gods, it means without gods.
I do not object to people believing in a king of the fairies in the sky. On occasions -weddings, funerals, Remembrance Days - I will quietly accompany them to the edifices in which they talk to themselves. I respect their right to do so. I do not judge them. I will keep silent and ... at worst ... regard it as an hour out of my life which I won't get back.
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Try standing on one leg while whistling the Marseillaise it's a really good cure for believing in bollocks.
ippy
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Well yes, it was so much more fun for you to think floo is an atheist and in your view a hypocrite. Sometimes the facts are a yawn and are boring to children that like to make stuff up in their little heads.
Much better than people whose monotonous repetition of pathetic so-called humourous insults created by opinionated big-heads who couldn't come up with a FACT if their lives depended upon it.
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I am surprised this thread is still going! ::)
For the record I am an AGNOSTIC. I don't believe the gods worshipped by humans exist except in the human mind. It is just possible a deity exists in another dimension somewhere.
Yes I have had some very weird experiences which some would consider 'supernatural' since birth. The ones we encountered in our previous property were beyond weird. However, as I have said many, many times before I am of the opinion there is an explanation for everything, which has nothing to do with unseen entities. I prefer to put my faith in science than religion.
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I prefer to put my faith in science than religion.
But there is no such dichotomy, Floo. A belief in one doesn't preclude a faith in the other.
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Try standing on one leg while whistling the Marseillaise it's a really good cure for believing in bollocks.
I think it will depend on whether one is male or female, ippy ;)
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I prefer to put my faith in science than religion.
But there is no such dichotomy, Floo. A belief in one doesn't preclude a faith in the other.
I am aware of that. However, where I am concerned, I have managed very well without a religion all these years, when I did have a faith it certainly wasn't a good experience. Until a deity, should it exist, reveals itself to the whole world in a way which cannot be denied by even the most hidebound atheists, I am more than content to regard humans as the gods of this world.
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I am more than content to regard humans as the gods of this world.
Sorry Floo. I think nature has a lot to say about that.
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Until a deity, should it exist, reveals itself to the whole world in a way which cannot be denied by even the most hidebound atheists, ...
You've made this type of comment before, but I think that we will always have those for whom anything will be able to be denied. As I've asked before, but you've never answered other than to suggest ways that have already occurred, what way of the deity 'reveal[ing] itself to the whole world' would satisfy you?
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Hi Sriram,
In response to your post 42:
The fact that Floo has talked about it is to her credit. Most atheists would have kept quiet.
An interesting assumption. I can assure you that I wouldn't.
My point is that atheists keep asking for evidence and still never bother to discuss or investigate such matters. They are happy living in their comfort zone and prefer that their mindset is not disturbed.
Complete bunkum in my case, Sriram. Many years ago, I and three others decided to investigate strange happenings which appeared in the local press. This involved visiting locations, interviewing people, and, in one particular case, spending the night in a working men's club which had previously been a local jail where people had died. We investigated a number of strange happenings over a period of roughly three years. May I also remind you that my father was a spiritualist, and I have attended quite a few spiritualist meetings in the past.
All these are mindset problems and are not easily resolved. No one likes strange new things infringing on their deeply embedded ideas.
It appears to me, as it often does, that it is you who have the mindset problem. You seem to have already made up your mind about 'miracles' when you suggested that Christians would rather talk about '2000 year old events and miracles rather than real ones of today.' Well, pardon me, Sriram, but I would rather go where the evidence leads, rather than make the assumption that there are 'real' miracles today.
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...but I would rather go where the evidence leads, rather than make the assumption that there are 'real' miracles today.
I can think of several people, medics included, who would also 'rather go where the evidence leads', which is why they believe that 'real' miracles occur today.
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...but I would rather go where the evidence leads, rather than make the assumption that there are 'real' miracles today.
I can think of several people, medics included, who would also 'rather go where the evidence leads', which is why they believe that 'real' miracles occur today.
Do any of them have the method for establishing the supernatural that you have been asked for so many times, or are they just relying on their incredulity?
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...but I would rather go where the evidence leads, rather than make the assumption that there are 'real' miracles today.
I can think of several people, medics included, who would also 'rather go where the evidence leads', which is why they believe that 'real' miracles occur today.
Do any of them have the method for establishing the supernatural that you have been asked for so many times, or are they just relying on their incredulity?
Nearly.
When an argument against it being supernatural has been reduced to just being a statement of philosophical naturalism.......I think we are there.
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...but I would rather go where the evidence leads, rather than make the assumption that there are 'real' miracles today.
I can think of several people, medics included, who would also 'rather go where the evidence leads', which is why they believe that 'real' miracles occur today.
Do any of them have the method for establishing the supernatural that you have been asked for so many times, or are they just relying on their incredulity?
Nearly.
When an argument against it being supernatural has been reduced to just being a statement of philosophical naturalism.......I think we are there.
Except it isn't that, and being reduced, as you are again, to lying about what people say, is just ludicrous. I am not making a claim about philosophical anything , that is why my post has the word methodology in it. Hope is making a philosophical claim and a methodological one as well with his talk of evidence. He, as with you never provide a methodology for your philosophical supernaturalistic claims, but you seem to hide that by misrepresenting what is being said. Why is it you think lying is acceptable? Why do you do you like so frequently?
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...but I would rather go where the evidence leads, rather than make the assumption that there are 'real' miracles today.
I can think of several people, medics included, who would also 'rather go where the evidence leads', which is why they believe that 'real' miracles occur today.
Then let them go where the evidence leads and produce their dissertations in respected peer reviewed outlets so that everyone can study their evidence in detail and hopefully replicate the 'miracles' that they are supposed to believe in.
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...but I would rather go where the evidence leads, rather than make the assumption that there are 'real' miracles today.
I can think of several people, medics included, who would also 'rather go where the evidence leads', which is why they believe that 'real' miracles occur today.
Do any of them have the method for establishing the supernatural that you have been asked for so many times, or are they just relying on their incredulity?
Nearly.
When an argument against it being supernatural has been reduced to just being a statement of philosophical naturalism.......I think we are there.
Except it isn't that, and being reduced, as you are again, to lying about what people say, is just ludicrous. I am not making a claim about philosophical anything , that is why my post has the word methodology in it. Hope is making a philosophical claim and a methodological one as well with his talk of evidence. He, as with you never provide a methodology for your philosophical supernaturalistic claims, but you seem to hide that by misrepresenting what is being said. Why is it you think lying is acceptable? Why do you do you like so frequently?
And I think you are just being slyly disingenuous.
You know that the one established methodology, science, backs up science and no other argument.....and yet you and everybody else makes arguments.
In other words you and others think that by mentioning the ''method'' or ''methodology'' you have cunningly exposed any claim.
Science is a methodology................................ so what?
That's almost as bad as Shaker claiming that someone who believes there is more than the natural is not only not allowed to use science but is morally wrong if they seek to do so.............Handwaving, it's all handwaving.
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Most modern "miracles" are people or animals who/that were expected to die and did not, they made a full recovery.
This recovery is attributed to a deity, a god, whichever one the speaker believes in.
In most cases it has nothing to do with any deity, not even mine, but to the tireless and expert care of medical professionals of one grade or trade or another, to years and years of learning, training and practice.
And, of course, all their undertaking of this learning and training and practice is put down to them being driven to do these things by their god (the speaker's), because without that drive the speaker opines, the medics would possibly have turned out to be sewing machine mechanics, anything but the accomplished medical professionals that they are.
A case of total disrespect.
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In what way is asking for method for a claim, disingenuous or otherwisem? You and Hope make claims and posit evidence. I merely ask how judge those claims. I have asked on here and the BBC for years and nothing from those I have asked.
I have been open about that and at no point have taken the position that such a methodology would be impossible. In addition. I have often posted that the methodology of science will never address an ought argument. Perhaps instead of lying continually about what people said, if you took time to read it you could actually engage with the discussion.
So given that can you help Hope out with a methodology for his claims?
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In what way is asking for method for a claim, disingenuous or otherwisem? You and Hope make claims and posit evidence. I merely ask how judge those claims. I have asked on here and the BBC for years and nothing from those I have asked.
I have been open about that and at no point have taken the position that such a methodology would be impossible. In addition. I have often posted that the methodology of science will never address an ought argument. Perhaps instead of lying continually about what people said, if you took time to read it you could actually engage with the discussion.
So given that can you help Hope out with a methodology for his claims?
Just a repeat of what's been going down Nearly.
Plus I think we want to know what you mean by saying you want a method or methodology.
And why the supernatural out of all the other things which don't have a methodology should be a target of your special pleading.
And why you convert history into science when yer antitheists on here are challenged on what are points of history.
A means of judging whether naturalistic methodology covers a situation has been provided to you ....and is continually met by you with a ''provide methodology please''. I have also stated that certain claims can be judged using rational means and logic. Other than that, this supernatural or God business doesn't just stop at the establishing of facts, there is the commitment to it being.....or not being so ''knowledge,or awareness or understanding can only ultimately be by being personally involved in a way not required by mere methodologies.
Your methodology bit is the ultimate red herring IMO.
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Most modern "miracles" are people or animals who/that were expected to die and did not, they made a full recovery....
In most cases it has nothing to do with any deity, not even mine, but to the tireless and expert care of medical professionals of one grade or trade or another, to years and years of learning, training and practice.
Of course, many of such events are dubbed 'spontaneous healings' by those who do not accept miracles (including some religious folk) purely because the tireless and expert care of medical professionals of one grade or trade or another, to years and years of learning, training and practice
you refer to, has produced no outcome other than expectation of death. That is why they aren't treated as ordinary recovery stats by hospitals.
And, of course, all their undertaking of this learning and training and practice is put down to them being driven to do these things by their god (the speaker's), because without that drive the speaker opines, the medics would possibly have turned out to be sewing machine mechanics, anything but the accomplished medical professionals that they are.
A case of total disrespect.
Matt, can you explain to me how someone explaining that their skills in medicine, the law, agriculture, whatever, ... are God-given is 'total disrespect'?
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Until a deity, should it exist, reveals itself to the whole world in a way which cannot be denied by even the most hidebound atheists, ...
You've made this type of comment before, but I think that we will always have those for whom anything will be able to be denied. As I've asked before, but you've never answered other than to suggest ways that have already occurred, what way of the deity 'reveal[ing] itself to the whole world' would satisfy you?
If it was omnipotent I am sure it could think of a way which would be undeniable to anyone! Mind you, if the deity exists, it doesn't seem to be very accomplished, if its screw ups are anything to go by!
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Then let them go where the evidence leads and produce their dissertations in respected peer reviewed outlets so that everyone can study their evidence in detail and hopefully replicate the 'miracles' that they are supposed to believe in.
I know of several who have written articles and other material for peer-reviewed outlets, all of whom have been told that the outlet will happily publish provided that the authors get permission from the institutions where the events occurred for the material to be published, on the grounds that the information is 'owned' by the institution (something that doesn't apply with other similar documentation to my knowledge). This has, in some cases, been despite the patient giving permission for their doctor-patient confidentiality to be waived.
As for replicating miracles, surely that is logically and scientifically impossible, since a miracle is something that happens outside of the normal. Mind you, many doctors with a faith would say that they and their colleagues perform and replicate miracles day after day, not least because no two patients ever present identically.
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Until a deity, should it exist, reveals itself to the whole world in a way which cannot be denied by even the most hidebound atheists, ...
You've made this type of comment before, but I think that we will always have those for whom anything will be able to be denied. As I've asked before, but you've never answered other than to suggest ways that have already occurred, what way of the deity 'reveal[ing] itself to the whole world' would satisfy you?
If it was omnipotent I am sure it could think of a way which would be undeniable to anyone! Mind you, if the deity exists, it doesn't seem to be very accomplished, if its screw ups are anything to go by!
And having been....as you say, a God of this earth, why would you want to hand over any of your power or authority.
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If it was omnipotent I am sure it could think of a way which would be undeniable to anyone!
So, you are again arguing for humanity as robot.
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If I make a claim about evidence then I need a method to determine whether it works. You seem to understand the methodology of science,and how it works, I want something that works for an assumption of the supernatural, can you provide one? If not then any claim to evidence is specious.
Again as I pointed out in my last post, I don't think science works for oughts so I am not making special pleading. Again can I suggest you read posts rather than reply to stuff you are making up in your head.
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If it was omnipotent I am sure it could think of a way which would be undeniable to anyone!
So, you are again arguing for humanity as robot.
No, having a means to convince someone of a fact does not make them a robot. If Satan exists, it would have incontrovertible knowledge of God's existence but would not portrayed as a robot
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If I make a claim about evidence then I need a method to determine whether it works. You seem to understand the methodology of science,and how it works, I want something that works for an assumption of the supernatural, can you provide one? If not then any claim to evidence is specious.
Again as I pointed out in my last post, I don't think science works for oughts so I am not making special pleading. Again can I suggest you read posts rather than reply to stuff you are making up in your head.
I don't think anybody fits your description of ASSUMING THE SUPERNATURAL. I think that is but a much loved characture and false justification for ''ducking''.
Again a more accurate model is of those for whom faith in philosophical naturalism is not enough to explain/accommodate their experience. In other words those who will use the naturalistic method until it's exhaustion. Let's not forget it's not just the supernatural where science exhausts it's capacity for explanation.
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No, having a means to convince someone of a fact does not make them a robot. If Satan exists, it would have incontrovertible knowledge of God's existence but would not portrayed as a robot
But if proof was incontrovertible where would our freewill be? Where would the need for brains as complex as ours be?
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Then let them go where the evidence leads and produce their dissertations in respected peer reviewed outlets so that everyone can study their evidence in detail and hopefully replicate the 'miracles' that they are supposed to believe in.
I know of several who have written articles and other material for peer-reviewed outlets, all of whom have been told that the outlet will happily publish provided that the authors get permission from the institutions where the events occurred for the material to be published, on the grounds that the information is 'owned' by the institution (something that doesn't apply with other similar documentation to my knowledge). This has, in some cases, been despite the patient giving permission for their doctor-patient confidentiality to be waived.
As for replicating miracles, surely that is logically and scientifically impossible, since a miracle is something that happens outside of the normal. Mind you, many doctors with a faith would say that they and their colleagues perform and replicate miracles day after day, not least because no two patients ever present identically.
There are plenty of occurrences which seem to happen outside the norm, Hope. Often this depends on the amount and quality of the evidence available at the time. Placebo and nocebo effects, for instance, are now fairly widely accepted because of a wide range of studies which give evidence of these effects.
However, if you really want to claim that 'miracles' actually take place then I suggest that hard evidence is essential, and they have to be examined using scientific methodology. Failing that, then some other methodology has to be used which can be convincing enough to identify and explain these 'miracles'. Belief is a poor substitute for such a methodology.
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Until a deity, should it exist, reveals itself to the whole world in a way which cannot be denied by even the most hidebound atheists, ...
You've made this type of comment before, but I think that we will always have those for whom anything will be able to be denied. As I've asked before, but you've never answered other than to suggest ways that have already occurred, what way of the deity 'reveal[ing] itself to the whole world' would satisfy you?
If it was omnipotent I am sure it could think of a way which would be undeniable to anyone! Mind you, if the deity exists, it doesn't seem to be very accomplished, if its screw ups are anything to go by!
And having been....as you say, a God of this earth, why would you want to hand over any of your power or authority.
Did I say anything about handing over anything? If the deity really does exist, and is a quarter as bad as the Bible portrays it to be, we should be doing everything in our power to exterminate the evil entity
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No, having a means to convince someone of a fact does not make them a robot. If Satan exists, it would have incontrovertible knowledge of God's existence but would not portrayed as a robot
But if proof was incontrovertible where would our freewill be? Where would the need for brains as complex as ours be?
Incontrovertible proof of facts has nothing to do with any concept about free will. Free will is related to action not belief. Are you saying that if there is such a thing as Satan it has no fee will and a non complex brain.
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If I make a claim about evidence then I need a method to determine whether it works. You seem to understand the methodology of science,and how it works, I want something that works for an assumption of the supernatural, can you provide one? If not then any claim to evidence is specious.
Again as I pointed out in my last post, I don't think science works for oughts so I am not making special pleading. Again can I suggest you read posts rather than reply to stuff you are making up in your head.
I don't think anybody fits your description of ASSUMING THE SUPERNATURAL. I think that is but a much loved characture and false justification for ''ducking''.
Again a more accurate model is of those for whom faith in philosophical naturalism is not enough to explain/accommodate their experience. In other words those who will use the naturalistic method until it's exhaustion. Let's not forget it's not just the supernatural where science exhausts it's capacity for explanation.
Oh dear, more misrepresentation about people claiming science explains everything which I have never said, and twice in the the last two posts explicitly disagreed with. For the 3rd time in 3 posts stop making shite up.
As to the assumption. Of supernatural, it's implicit in a methodology and is implicit in some of the stuff you post with showing no understanding of it.
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If the deity really does exist, and is a quarter as bad as the Bible portrays it to be, we should be doing everything in our power to exterminate the evil entity
Floo, if I'd had a £1 for every time you made a post along these lines without ever producing evidence to back up your claim, I'd be a very rich guy by now. ;)
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If the deity really does exist, and is a quarter as bad as the Bible portrays it to be, we should be doing everything in our power to exterminate the evil entity
Floo, if I'd had a £1 for every time you made a post along these lines without ever producing evidence to back up your claim, I'd be a very rich guy by now. ;)
Except Floo's post here is a statement of opinion about her reading of the bible and the character of the god portrayed into. It's not a claim about evidence. Btw any chance of a methodology to evaluate supernatural claims?
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Except Floo's post here is a statement of opinion about her reading of the bible and the character of the god portrayed into. It's not a claim about evidence.
So, are you suggesting that opinion doesn't have to have supporting evidence?
Btw any chance of a methodology to evaluate supernatural claims?
Cracked record time again. As has been said by a number of people, the methodology required to evaluate supernatural claims includes supernatural elements (such as the acknowledgement that they can exist), in the same way as the methodology for evaluating purely natural claims involves natural elements. I have to admit to having never considered whether purely physical claims can be evaluated by the supernatural methodology. All I would say is that they deal with many different aspects of reality.
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Hi everyone,
Some time back..Floo had posted on the Christian board that she had experienced a dramatic cure (my words) for her frozen shoulder when she went into her field (agricultural field I mean) one day. I understand that the field was known for such cures and that many people would request to be allowed to walk into the field to experience such 'magical' cures for their ailments.
In my opinion, this kind of cure is due to the biofield (aura) that surrounds all of us like a magnetic field. If the flow of energy in this field is hindered in any way it can result in ailments. If the flow of energy is corrected it can cure ailments miraculously. This phenomenon is not 'supernatural' but is a very natural phenomenon that science is not yet aware of.
Most faith healings and placing of hands and other such treatments such as pranic healing, reiki and even acupuncture.....are built around this phenomenon of the biofield. It is called Prana in Hinduism, Chi in China and Ki in Japan.
I wish Floo would elaborate here about her experience and let us know what exactly happened to her and to others she has seen. It is important that we don't shy away from such abnormal experiences. It could lead us to new and exciting discoveries....and perhaps help scientists to identify new ways of treating ailments.
Cheers.
Sriram
Sriram, I agree it's all about 'energy' (where's Nick Marks... haha). The healing takes place because there is a shift in the field of energy (biofield, as you say). If you know anything about acupuncture it works because the 'block' in the flow of energy which has caused the ailment, is released and the energy (chi) is able to flow, once more.
Re Floo's field: in natural healing speak, the vortex of energy displaying within the field works by unblocking the blocked energy within the recipient. It will literally be similar to standing in the radiation of a sun treatment cubicle, which is used in the treatment of skin problems.
Just to add: Visions of Jesus were seen a few years ago at Broadway Tower, a folly near Broadway, UK, Whether any healings took place at the time, I don't know.
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Woo overload!
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Woo overload!
So be it.... but have a look, yourself, Shaker at how Acupuncture, Reiki etc, works.
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Except Floo's post here is a statement of opinion about her reading of the bible and the character of the god portrayed into. It's not a claim about evidence.
So, are you suggesting that opinion doesn't have to have supporting evidence?
Btw any chance of a methodology to evaluate supernatural claims?
Cracked record time again. As has been said by a number of people, the methodology required to evaluate supernatural claims includes supernatural elements (such as the acknowledgement that they can exist), in the same way as the methodology for evaluating purely natural claims involves natural elements. I have to admit to having never considered whether purely physical claims can be evaluated by the supernatural methodology. All I would say is that they deal with many different aspects of reality.
Does my opinion that Marmite is lovely need evidence? How about that I think Osborne is a chancer? You could ask why you think such things but I think it is as usual with you a misuse of evidence.
And I may be being a cracked record but that is because yet again there is a failure to answer. How do you evaluate supernatural elements? How does it work when we do not seem to have any method to determine what would be such an element?
Is it just that you have no understanding of what a method is?
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Woo overload!
So be it.... but have a look, yourself, Shaker at how Acupuncture, Reiki etc, works.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/26/acupuncture-sceptics-proof-effective-nhs
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Woo overload!
So be it.... but have a look, yourself, Shaker at how Acupuncture, Reiki etc, works.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/26/acupuncture-sceptics-proof-effective-nhs
Can't remember where but I heard something about it has been tried on animals with some success.
No I can't verify that.
ippy
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If the deity really does exist, and is a quarter as bad as the Bible portrays it to be, we should be doing everything in our power to exterminate the evil entity
Floo, if I'd had a £1 for every time you made a post along these lines without ever producing evidence to back up your claim, I'd be a very rich guy by now. ;)
I don't have to produce any evidence, it is you that has to produce evidence for your fanciful belief system, which you fail to do.
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If the deity really does exist, and is a quarter as bad as the Bible portrays it to be, we should be doing everything in our power to exterminate the evil entity
Floo, if I'd had a £1 for every time you made a post along these lines without ever producing evidence to back up your claim, I'd be a very rich guy by now. ;)
And if I had a pound for every time you made an assertion without ever producing evidence, I'd be considerably richer than you.
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About Acupuncture....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150721134820.htm
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In animal models, acupuncture appears to impact the same biologic pathways ramped up by pain and stress, analogous to what drugs do in humans. Georgetown University Medical Center (GUMC) researchers say their animal study, published online in Endocrinology, provides the strongest evidence to date on the mechanism of this ancient Chinese therapy in chronic stress.
"The benefits of acupuncture are well known by those who use it, but such proof is anecdotal. This research, the culmination of a number of studies, demonstrates how acupuncture might work in the human body to reduce stress and pain, and, potentially, depression," says the study's senior investigator,
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Another link......
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150819120750.htm
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Patients with hypertension treated with acupuncture experienced drops in their blood pressure that lasted up to a month and a half, researchers have found. This work is the first to scientifically confirm that this ancient Chinese practice is beneficial in treating mild to moderate hypertension, and it indicates that regular use could help people control their blood pressure and lessen their risk of stroke and heart disease.
"By using Western scientific rigor to validate an ancient Eastern therapy, we feel we have integrated Chinese and Western medicine and provided a beneficial guideline for treating a disease that affects millions in the U.S."
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If the deity really does exist, and is a quarter as bad as the Bible portrays it to be, we should be doing everything in our power to exterminate the evil entity
Floo, if I'd had a £1 for every time you made a post along these lines without ever producing evidence to back up your claim, I'd be a very rich guy by now. ;)
And if I had a pound for every time you made an assertion without ever producing evidence, I'd be considerably richer than you.
... and if I had a pound for every time that Hope had done so while invoking some logical fallacy or other, usually the appeal to ignorance, I'd be richer than both of you put together.
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Well Shaker, so now we know you are poorer than dirt poor. Have another cookie and then get a job! (snork)
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Just to add: Visions of Jesus were seen a few years ago at Broadway Tower, a folly near Broadway, UK, Whether any healings took place at the time, I don't know.
I live a few miles from Broadway Tower. First I've ever heard of this.
Wasn't being put around by Max Clifford, was it? He isn't using his weekend cottage at the moment.
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And if I had a pound for every time you made an assertion without ever producing evidence, I'd be considerably richer than you.
... and if I had a pound for every time that Hope had done so while invoking some logical fallacy or other, usually the appeal to ignorance, I'd be richer than both of you put together.
Actually, no you wouldn't, since the occasions in which Hope makes an assertion without producing evidence but with invoking a logical fallacy is necessarily a subset of the occasions in which Hope simply makes an assertion without producing evidence.
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That's taking stone-faced, humourless pedantry to a nadir previously only ever observed in Hope.