Religion and Ethics Forum

Religion and Ethics Discussion => Muslim Topic => Topic started by: Morgaine on September 14, 2015, 07:18:04 AM

Title: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Morgaine on September 14, 2015, 07:18:04 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11862220/Topless-protesters-disrupt-Muslim-conference-on-women.html
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Leonard James on September 14, 2015, 07:38:54 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11862220/Topless-protesters-disrupt-Muslim-conference-on-women.html

Blimey, that's courage! Brave girls! Whether anybody can ever do anything to stop the stupid. ignorant attitude of muslims towards their women is another matter.  :(
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Hope on September 14, 2015, 08:06:39 AM
If I understand certain forms of Islam correctly, the threat of assault in the afterlife has long existed - especially if one is a virgin.
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: The Accountant, OBE, KC on September 14, 2015, 09:26:36 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11862220/Topless-protesters-disrupt-Muslim-conference-on-women.html

Blimey, that's courage! Brave girls! Whether anybody can ever do anything to stop the stupid. ignorant attitude of muslims towards their women is another matter.  :(
All Musilims? Len, if no one has been able to do anything to stop your stupid, ignorant attitude that all muslims have a stupid ignorant attitude to women, might we conclude that it's quite hard to change the stupid, ignorant attitudes of old men?
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Outrider on September 14, 2015, 10:52:30 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11862220/Topless-protesters-disrupt-Muslim-conference-on-women.html

Blimey, that's courage! Brave girls! Whether anybody can ever do anything to stop the stupid. ignorant attitude of muslims towards their women is another matter.  :(
All Musilims? Len, if no one has been able to do anything to stop your stupid, ignorant attitude that all muslims have a stupid ignorant attitude to women, might we conclude that it's quite hard to change the stupid, ignorant attitudes of old men?

Without a doubt. Whilst it might not be exactly true that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, there's a reason the aphorism came about. Conservatism is the bastion of the elderly, reinforced by their tendency to inculcate youth with the tenet 'respect your elders', by which they mean 'your elders are definitionally right'.

Respect is due, of course, to everyone, but ideas stand on their own merits, not because of who said them. We are no more beholden to 'older and wiser' than we are to Popes and Archbishops, but the social movement against that wisdom isn't as well-supported yet - probably because all the youngsters are out drinking, smoking and enjoying themselves whilst they can as though that was... the.... point...

O.
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Leonard James on September 14, 2015, 10:55:28 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11862220/Topless-protesters-disrupt-Muslim-conference-on-women.html

Blimey, that's courage! Brave girls! Whether anybody can ever do anything to stop the stupid. ignorant attitude of muslims towards their women is another matter.  :(
All Musilims? Len, if no one has been able to do anything to stop your stupid, ignorant attitude that all muslims have a stupid ignorant attitude to women, might we conclude that it's quite hard to change the stupid, ignorant attitudes of old men?

If there are muslims that don't veil and control their women, but treat them as equals, this old man apologises to them, and suggests they try to educate those that are still locked in the past.
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: The Accountant, OBE, KC on September 14, 2015, 11:15:16 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11862220/Topless-protesters-disrupt-Muslim-conference-on-women.html

Blimey, that's courage! Brave girls! Whether anybody can ever do anything to stop the stupid. ignorant attitude of muslims towards their women is another matter.  :(
All Musilims? Len, if no one has been able to do anything to stop your stupid, ignorant attitude that all muslims have a stupid ignorant attitude to women, might we conclude that it's quite hard to change the stupid, ignorant attitudes of old men?

If there are muslims that don't veil and control their women, but treat them as equals, this old man apologises to them, and suggests they try to educate those that are still locked in the past.
"If there are muslims...."? Sounds like an another example of your ignorance Len.

How do you know they haven't been trying to educate other Muslims, the same way people on here have been trying to educate you. And yet you obviously haven't learnt anything - maybe the muslims who veil and control their women have a similar mindset to you when it comes to new information that conflicts with their long-held prejudices.
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Leonard James on September 14, 2015, 11:19:08 AM

How do you know they haven't been trying to educate other Muslims, the same way people on here have been trying to educate you. And yet you obviously haven't learnt anything - maybe the muslims who veil and control their women have a similar mindset to you when it comes to new information that conflicts with their long-held prejudices.

I'm not aware that I have any prejudices against women or anybody else. As far as I am concerned rights are equal for everybody. As are their obligations.
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: The Accountant, OBE, KC on September 14, 2015, 11:21:40 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11862220/Topless-protesters-disrupt-Muslim-conference-on-women.html

Blimey, that's courage! Brave girls! Whether anybody can ever do anything to stop the stupid. ignorant attitude of muslims towards their women is another matter.  :(
All Musilims? Len, if no one has been able to do anything to stop your stupid, ignorant attitude that all muslims have a stupid ignorant attitude to women, might we conclude that it's quite hard to change the stupid, ignorant attitudes of old men?

Without a doubt. Whilst it might not be exactly true that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, there's a reason the aphorism came about. Conservatism is the bastion of the elderly, reinforced by their tendency to inculcate youth with the tenet 'respect your elders', by which they mean 'your elders are definitionally right'.

Respect is due, of course, to everyone, but ideas stand on their own merits, not because of who said them. We are no more beholden to 'older and wiser' than we are to Popes and Archbishops, but the social movement against that wisdom isn't as well-supported yet - probably because all the youngsters are out drinking, smoking and enjoying themselves whilst they can as though that was... the.... point...

O.
Maybe. But you should also consider that quite often people change their views over time as they get older. Their extra life experience often increases their awareness of the complexities of issues or they just want different things out of life from when they were younger due to their changing circumstances and priorities. So there will always be some generational conflict about ideas because whether the ideas have merit depends on the individual's perspective - the older people probably would have argued with their younger selves.
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: The Accountant, OBE, KC on September 14, 2015, 11:30:44 AM

How do you know they haven't been trying to educate other Muslims, the same way people on here have been trying to educate you. And yet you obviously haven't learnt anything - maybe the muslims who veil and control their women have a similar mindset to you when it comes to new information that conflicts with their long-held prejudices.

I'm not aware that I have any prejudices against women or anybody else. As far as I am concerned rights are equal for everybody. As are their obligations.
The word "prejudice" covers a lot more than equal rights. It is defined as "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."

On this MB you have experienced evidence of Muslims who do not believe in veiling and controlling their women. So just wondering why you said "If there are muslims that don't veil and control their women, but treat them as equals" - why the word "if"? 

And why do you assume they are not already trying to educate other Muslims on their treatment of women?

Do you hold these views about Muslims because of prejudice against Muslims?
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Leonard James on September 14, 2015, 11:40:50 AM
The word "prejudice" covers a lot more than equal rights. It is defined as "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."

Good, that is exactly how I see it.

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On this MB you have experienced evidence of Muslims who do not believe in veiling and controlling their women. So just wondering why you said "If there are muslims that don't veil and control their women, but treat them as equals" - why the word "if"? 

To show that my remarks were not directed at them, but to the rest.

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And why do you assume they are not already trying to educate other Muslims on their treatment of women?

I have never been presented with any evidence that such is the case.  I am glad to know that I was wrong.

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Do you hold these views about Muslims because of prejudice against Muslims?

Not prejudice, but the knowledge that the wrong exists in some of them.
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: The Accountant, OBE, KC on September 14, 2015, 12:00:24 PM
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On this MB you have experienced evidence of Muslims who do not believe in veiling and controlling their women. So just wondering why you said "If there are muslims that don't veil and control their women, but treat them as equals" - why the word "if"? 

To show that my remarks were not directed at them, but to the rest.
Ah - so you're aware that there are Muslims who don't veil and control their women, but just felt like putting in a surplus "if" because of your ignorance of the use of the word "if". For future reference, you can leave out the "if" and just say what you mean i.e. that "this old man apologises to" Muslims who don't veil and control their women.
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And why do you assume they are not already trying to educate other Muslims on their treatment of women?

I have never been presented with any evidence that such is the case.  I am glad to know that I was wrong.
I have presented lots of evidence on here, information on this is easily available on the internet - so it is surprising that you keep yourself poorly informed on certain issues or have a selective memory. Maybe you should acquire a bit more information on these topics before commenting, so you appear less ignorant?

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Do you hold these views about Muslims because of prejudice against Muslims?

Not prejudice, but the knowledge that the wrong exists in some of them.
Do you hold all Muslims responsible for the wrongs of some of them?
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: jakswan on September 14, 2015, 12:23:04 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11862220/Topless-protesters-disrupt-Muslim-conference-on-women.html

Blimey, that's courage! Brave girls! Whether anybody can ever do anything to stop the stupid. ignorant attitude of muslims towards their women is another matter.  :(

Some Muslims Len!
"According to Inna Shevchenko, a spokeswoman for the feminist protest group, two fundamentalist preachers were discussing the question of “whether wives should be beaten or not” when the activists, aged 25 and 31, ripped off their Arab-style cloaks and jumped on to the stage on Saturday evening."
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Leonard James on September 14, 2015, 12:27:19 PM
Ah - so you're aware that there are Muslims who don't veil and control their women...

Only since you told me so earlier in the thread.

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but just felt like putting in a surplus "if" because of your ignorance of the use of the word "if".

Nope, as I said, I didn't know there were such muslims till you told me so.

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For future reference, you can leave out the "if" and just say what you mean i.e. that "this old man apologises to" Muslims who don't veil and control their women.

Thank you for your permission.


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I have presented lots of evidence on here, information on this is easily available on the internet - so it is surprising that you keep yourself poorly informed on certain issues or have a selective memory. Maybe you should acquire a bit more information on these topics before commenting, so you appear less ignorant?

I'm afraid old age brings with it much memory loss ... if that makes me look ignorant, I will have to bear it.

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Do you hold all Muslims responsible for the wrongs of some of them?

Of course I don't ... I'm old, but not daft yet.
Title: Re: Assault in the afterlife?
Post by: Leonard James on September 14, 2015, 12:31:07 PM


Some Muslims Len!
"According to Inna Shevchenko, a spokeswoman for the feminist protest group, two fundamentalist preachers were discussing the question of “whether wives should be beaten or not” when the activists, aged 25 and 31, ripped off their Arab-style cloaks and jumped on to the stage on Saturday evening."

Yes, so Gabby has just pointed out. I confess that I had no idea that some muslim women were allowed to dress as they please. Enlightenment marches on ... both theirs and mine!  :)