Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Jack Knave on September 14, 2015, 01:27:37 PM
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Obviously, this thread is aimed at people who have a faith and a belief.
Usually it is asked why do you believe in your God/gods, which then elicits chapter and verse of some kind or some academic verbiage, but I think the more appropriate question should be what is your personal and direct experience of your God/gods which would then substantiate your beliefs for yourself in some kind of 'solid' manner.
I say direct because you can't include the social acceptance and 'love' of what eventually became your brethren and fellow believers. It has to be a one to one personal experience with your God/gods, not some communal, day-to-day social activity.
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I say direct because you can't include the social acceptance and 'love' of what eventually became your brethren and fellow believers. It has to be a one to one personal experience with your God/gods, not some communal, day-to-day social activity.
Why not? For some people - particularly, I'm thinking, those of the animist persuasion, or pantheists - God is not a distinct entity, it's an embodiment of life and living: love from the community is God's love.
Don't get me wrong, that's not my belief, but I think you're dismissing some people's 'experience' because it doesn't fit a preconception you already have.
O.
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One question JK, which is there may be those who are no longer theists who might feel they 'experienced' God(s) previously but then decided, for whatever reason, that was incorrect, surely their 'testimony' might also be interesting?
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Dear Jack Knave,
Where to start.
1. In a prayer answered ( but Gonnagle God does not answer prayers ).
2. In a meeting of two souls ( but Gonnagle we don't have souls ).
3. In a quiet moment.
4. Those times when you awake, smile and say, ha no work today and fall back into the land of nod.
5. In a pub where the atmosphere is just perfect.
6. When my brothers are laughing at me for something daft I have said or done ( which is often ).
7. The time just before sleep overtakes you and you are thinking weird but happy thoughts.
9. In a eureka moment, when the penny finally drops.
10. In a Vlad versus Shaker thread, or a Shaker versus Bashers thread, or a Wigginhall joke which you finally get and laugh because the joke is on you, or a Nearlysane post when you say, bugger I never thought of that.
Gonnagle.
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One question JK, which is there may be those who are no longer theists who might feel they 'experienced' God(s) previously but then decided, for whatever reason, that was incorrect, surely their 'testimony' might also be interesting?
I think it might prove even more interesting. Certainly people like Richard Holloway and Bart D Ehrman, who both ,at one point in their lives, received the whole evangelical God-wallop, make fascinating reading.
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Pity you set rules on what's allowed here. There have been many times I would get to church, the parson starts preaching and the message seems directed right at me. Sometimes for humbling, sometimes for building up and encouraging. And there have been times that the message was so direct, one would think the Parson had prior knowledge of what I dealt with that week, but he didn't. God uses people that way all the time. Even though you don't want it allowed, I opt to only share the one you won't allow. Why? Because it is very much a personal experience of God and saying it isn't or it can't be used here, rubs me the wrong way. And so that's all I'm going to argue for here on your, can't use this as a personal experience of your God, thread.
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Pity you set rules on what's allowed here. There have been many times I would get to church, the parson starts preaching and the message seems directed right at me. Sometimes for humbling, sometimes for building up and encouraging. And there have been times that the message was so direct, one would think the Parson had prior knowledge of what I dealt with that week, but he didn't. God uses people that way all the time. Even though you don't want it allowed, I opt to only share the one you won't allow. Why? Because it is very much a personal experience of God and saying it isn't or it can't be used here, rubs me the wrong way. And so that's all I'm going to argue for here on your, can't use this as a personal experience of your God, thread.
You need to see a Derren Brown program, where he gave some very personal information to several people. Each one thought he had understood them perfectly, and they could not believe he knew so much about them.
It turned out that he had given the same information to every person, and they all interpreted it as being very personal.
We share many things in common, and if thee language used is generic, we simply make it fit.
I expect many people in your church thought the same thing.
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You need to see a Derren Brown program, where he gave some very personal information to several people. Each one thought he had understood them perfectly, and they could not believe he knew so much about them.
It turned out that he had given the same information to every person, and they all interpreted it as being very personal.
We share many things in common, and if thee language used is generic, we simply make it fit.
I expect many people in your church thought the same thing.
I was going to use the example of astrology, but yeah, same thing ;)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertram_Forer
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Pity you set rules on what's allowed here. There have been many times I would get to church, the parson starts preaching and the message seems directed right at me. Sometimes for humbling, sometimes for building up and encouraging. And there have been times that the message was so direct, one would think the Parson had prior knowledge of what I dealt with that week, but he didn't. God uses people that way all the time. Even though you don't want it allowed, I opt to only share the one you won't allow. Why? Because it is very much a personal experience of God and saying it isn't or it can't be used here, rubs me the wrong way. And so that's all I'm going to argue for here on your, can't use this as a personal experience of your God, thread.
You need to see a Derren Brown program, where he gave some very personal information to several people. Each one thought he had understood them perfectly, and they could not believe he knew so much about them.
It turned out that he had given the same information to every person, and they all interpreted it as being very personal.
We share many things in common, and if thee language used is generic, we simply make it fit.
I expect many people in your church thought the same thing.
I believe it's called the Forer Effect, the tendency for people to interpret generic information as meaningful.
O.
-
Obviously, this thread is aimed at people who have a faith and a belief.
Usually it is asked why do you believe in your God/gods, which then elicits chapter and verse of some kind or some academic verbiage, but I think the more appropriate question should be what is your personal and direct experience of your God/gods which would then substantiate your beliefs for yourself in some kind of 'solid' manner.
I say direct because you can't include the social acceptance and 'love' of what eventually became your brethren and fellow believers. It has to be a one to one personal experience with your God/gods, not some communal, day-to-day social activity.
Are you a Charismatic then?
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I say direct because you can't include the social acceptance and 'love' of what eventually became your brethren and fellow believers. It has to be a one to one personal experience with your God/gods, not some communal, day-to-day social activity.
Why not? For some people - particularly, I'm thinking, those of the animist persuasion, or pantheists - God is not a distinct entity, it's an embodiment of life and living: love from the community is God's love.
Don't get me wrong, that's not my belief, but I think you're dismissing some people's 'experience' because it doesn't fit a preconception you already have.
O.
As I am a Pagan, I feel that you have put my point of view on the subject rather well
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I say direct because you can't include the social acceptance and 'love' of what eventually became your brethren and fellow believers. It has to be a one to one personal experience with your God/gods, not some communal, day-to-day social activity.
Why not? For some people - particularly, I'm thinking, those of the animist persuasion, or pantheists - God is not a distinct entity, it's an embodiment of life and living: love from the community is God's love.
Don't get me wrong, that's not my belief, but I think you're dismissing some people's 'experience' because it doesn't fit a preconception you already have.
O.
That just shows how easy it is to make the term God mean anything. But I take your point.
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One question JK, which is there may be those who are no longer theists who might feel they 'experienced' God(s) previously but then decided, for whatever reason, that was incorrect, surely their 'testimony' might also be interesting?
As you say they felt something. I would never deny them that. But if God has been excluded as a cause then it is now a psychological issue, is it not?
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Dear Jack Knave,
Where to start.
1. In a prayer answered ( but Gonnagle God does not answer prayers ).
2. In a meeting of two souls ( but Gonnagle we don't have souls ).
3. In a quiet moment.
4. Those times when you awake, smile and say, ha no work today and fall back into the land of nod.
5. In a pub where the atmosphere is just perfect.
6. When my brothers are laughing at me for something daft I have said or done ( which is often ).
7. The time just before sleep overtakes you and you are thinking weird but happy thoughts.
9. In a eureka moment, when the penny finally drops.
10. In a Vlad versus Shaker thread, or a Shaker versus Bashers thread, or a Wigginhall joke which you finally get and laugh because the joke is on you, or a Nearlysane post when you say, bugger I never thought of that.
Gonnagle.
????????????
I was looking for personal testimonies.
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One question JK, which is there may be those who are no longer theists who might feel they 'experienced' God(s) previously but then decided, for whatever reason, that was incorrect, surely their 'testimony' might also be interesting?
As you say they felt something. I would never deny them that. But if God has been excluded as a cause then it is now a psychological issue, is it not?
Quite possibly but surely their experience of that would be informative
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Pity you set rules on what's allowed here. There have been many times I would get to church, the parson starts preaching and the message seems directed right at me. Sometimes for humbling, sometimes for building up and encouraging. And there have been times that the message was so direct, one would think the Parson had prior knowledge of what I dealt with that week, but he didn't. God uses people that way all the time. Even though you don't want it allowed, I opt to only share the one you won't allow. Why? Because it is very much a personal experience of God and saying it isn't or it can't be used here, rubs me the wrong way. And so that's all I'm going to argue for here on your, can't use this as a personal experience of your God, thread.
But what you describe happens to many people in different situations - even to me many times on earthly matters.
I have this magic with books. I'm pondering on something I can't figure out, I go into a library etc and get directly guided to a shelf, then a book and the first page I open at has what I'm looking for, all within a handful of seconds. This has happened to me on numerous occasions. This is not God because the issue is an earthly one and has nothing to do with religion either.
So do you have a direct experience of your God?
-
Obviously, this thread is aimed at people who have a faith and a belief.
Usually it is asked why do you believe in your God/gods, which then elicits chapter and verse of some kind or some academic verbiage, but I think the more appropriate question should be what is your personal and direct experience of your God/gods which would then substantiate your beliefs for yourself in some kind of 'solid' manner.
I say direct because you can't include the social acceptance and 'love' of what eventually became your brethren and fellow believers. It has to be a one to one personal experience with your God/gods, not some communal, day-to-day social activity.
Are you a Charismatic then?
What do you mean? I don't understand the context here.
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Oh I see. Not really. I just find it strange that people believe in God, and their particular faith, without having a direct personal experience of their God, but instead give the examples that JC has aired of basically communal acceptance and love, and getting the right pet talk when needed.
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One question JK, which is there may be those who are no longer theists who might feel they 'experienced' God(s) previously but then decided, for whatever reason, that was incorrect, surely their 'testimony' might also be interesting?
As you say they felt something. I would never deny them that. But if God has been excluded as a cause then it is now a psychological issue, is it not?
Quite possibly but surely their experience of that would be informative
Informative of what?
Isn't that the purpose of some fields of psychology to find some reason or framework for such experiences?
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You need to see a Derren Brown program, where he gave some very personal information to several people. Each one thought he had understood them perfectly, and they could not believe he knew so much about them.
It turned out that he had given the same information to every person, and they all interpreted it as being very personal.
We share many things in common, and if thee language used is generic, we simply make it fit.
I expect many people in your church thought the same thing.
I was going to use the example of astrology, but yeah, same thing ;)
Jane Goldman did a very interesting piece on this in regards to psychic mediumship. A woman gave a reading - even saying that the subject had a friend called Sue that she was worried about - and got a hit rate of about 83%. But when she showed the reading to other friends who weren't the subject of the reading their hit rate was about the same - and many of them had a friend called Sue that they were worried about.
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I'm a sort of pantheist animist I guess - I can't pigeon-hole it easily - and my experiences go back to childhood when I would experience everything from grass to the moon to snow as having some kind of 'spark' to it.
I come from a Christian family and was brought up as a non churchgoer but nevertheless with a quite strict moral Christian code, very Catholic-flavoured. During my late teens through my twenties I began to have a sense of what I thought was God's presence in my life. Most of the time it felt like a sweetness, like knowing you are loved. Sometimes the presence faded but I knew it was still there. When I lost my faith that sense of presence went. It was as though a light bulb had been switched off, it was that sudden.
Although it was traumatic and un-sought-for it allowed me to reconnect with the pantheist/animist/pagan side of me that I'd felt compelled to squash down when I'd started to go to church and learned that believing God is in a sunset was 'pagan' and therefore unacceptable. I'm much happier as a result.
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One question JK, which is there may be those who are no longer theists who might feel they 'experienced' God(s) previously but then decided, for whatever reason, that was incorrect, surely their 'testimony' might also be interesting?
I think it might prove even more interesting. Certainly people like Richard Holloway and Bart D Ehrman, who both ,at one point in their lives, received the whole evangelical God-wallop, make fascinating reading.
Apparently according to an article he contributed to the Scotsman. He became an agnostic very soon after his ordination but continued to rise up the ranks to become a Bishop. He was therefore the Anthony Blunt of the Episcopalian church.....and yes Dicky, Anthony Blunt is cockney rhyming slang.
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Dear Jack Knave,
Where to start.
1. In a prayer answered ( but Gonnagle God does not answer prayers ).
2. In a meeting of two souls ( but Gonnagle we don't have souls ).
3. In a quiet moment.
4. Those times when you awake, smile and say, ha no work today and fall back into the land of nod.
5. In a pub where the atmosphere is just perfect.
6. When my brothers are laughing at me for something daft I have said or done ( which is often ).
7. The time just before sleep overtakes you and you are thinking weird but happy thoughts.
9. In a eureka moment, when the penny finally drops.
10. In a Vlad versus Shaker thread, or a Shaker versus Bashers thread, or a Wigginhall joke which you finally get and laugh because the joke is on you, or a Nearlysane post when you say, bugger I never thought of that.
Gonnagle.
????????????
I was looking for personal testimonies.
I have given mine about three times on this board. I found there was something greater than us through the cosmic wonder of Carl Sagan and God and Christ in Christians and the works of CS Lewis and revelations 3:20.
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I have given mine about three times on this board. I found there was something greater than us through the cosmic wonder of Carl Sagan and God and Christ in Christians and the works of CS Lewis and revelations 3:20.
Bloody hell ::)
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Obviously, this thread is aimed at people who have a faith and a belief.
Usually it is asked why do you believe in your God/gods, which then elicits chapter and verse of some kind or some academic verbiage, but I think the more appropriate question should be what is your personal and direct experience of your God/gods which would then substantiate your beliefs for yourself in some kind of 'solid' manner.
I say direct because you can't include the social acceptance and 'love' of what eventually became your brethren and fellow believers. It has to be a one to one personal experience with your God/gods, not some communal, day-to-day social activity.
Are you a Charismatic then?
What do you mean? I don't understand the context here.
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Oh I see. Not really. I just find it strange that people believe in God, and their particular faith, without having a direct personal experience of their God, but instead give the examples that JC has aired of basically communal acceptance and love, and getting the right pet talk when needed.
The problem with experiences is that they are subjective; how does a person judge the source of those experiences for instance. Experience has to be evaluated. An evangelical would use the Bible as the yardstick for any experience. I have had experiences which I might ascribe to God but my faith is not founded upon them. I mentioned Charismatics as there is a tendency for those at the extreme to exalt experience over the word of God; not a good idea imho.
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That just shows how easy it is to make the term God mean anything. But I take your point.
That's part of the problem when it come to discussions about religion - there are so many varying depictions and understandings of the idea. Some might be inclined to suggest that it's down to the lack of any definitive evidence, leading to a plethora of cultural and personal influences on an otherwise nebulous concept.
O.
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Dearest Mater,
Thing is, over the years most Christians on this and the BBC forum have all shared their experiences only to have them stuck under the microscope and examined by amateur head shrinks, so I see where you might find it difficult for some to share.
Gonnagle.
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And us non-believers get told we're selfish/our lives are meaningless/we are off to the burny-burny place.
Perhaps we should all just stick to discussing football, recipes and puppies.
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Dear Jack Knave,
Where to start.
1. In a prayer answered ( but Gonnagle God does not answer prayers ).
2. In a meeting of two souls ( but Gonnagle we don't have souls ).
3. In a quiet moment.
4. Those times when you awake, smile and say, ha no work today and fall back into the land of nod.
5. In a pub where the atmosphere is just perfect.
6. When my brothers are laughing at me for something daft I have said or done ( which is often ).
7. The time just before sleep overtakes you and you are thinking weird but happy thoughts.
9. In a eureka moment, when the penny finally drops.
10. In a Vlad versus Shaker thread, or a Shaker versus Bashers thread, or a Wigginhall joke which you finally get and laugh because the joke is on you, or a Nearlysane post when you say, bugger I never thought of that.
Gonnagle.
????????????
I was looking for personal testimonies.
I have given mine about three times on this board. I found there was something greater than us through the cosmic wonder of Carl Sagan and God and Christ in Christians and the works of CS Lewis and revelations 3:20.
I must have missed them.
Those are not personal, direct encounters with your God, though. As I said I was hoping for personal testimonies of encounters with one's God.
Please note that Rev.3:20 is addressed to the Laodicea church not to any old body. To understand and get 3:20 into context you have to read the whole letter to them.
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My experience of God was very real and personal. I confess I never heard him speak, but he always helped me and answered my prayers, sometimes positively and other times negatively because that was what was best for me. I felt his presence often in many deeply beautiful moments.
The rest you already know.
-
Obviously, this thread is aimed at people who have a faith and a belief.
Usually it is asked why do you believe in your God/gods, which then elicits chapter and verse of some kind or some academic verbiage, but I think the more appropriate question should be what is your personal and direct experience of your God/gods which would then substantiate your beliefs for yourself in some kind of 'solid' manner.
I say direct because you can't include the social acceptance and 'love' of what eventually became your brethren and fellow believers. It has to be a one to one personal experience with your God/gods, not some communal, day-to-day social activity.
Are you a Charismatic then?
What do you mean? I don't understand the context here.
-------------
Oh I see. Not really. I just find it strange that people believe in God, and their particular faith, without having a direct personal experience of their God, but instead give the examples that JC has aired of basically communal acceptance and love, and getting the right pet talk when needed.
The problem with experiences is that they are subjective; how does a person judge the source of those experiences for instance. Experience has to be evaluated. An evangelical would use the Bible as the yardstick for any experience. I have had experiences which I might ascribe to God but my faith is not founded upon them. I mentioned Charismatics as there is a tendency for those at the extreme to exalt experience over the word of God; not a good idea imho.
So what is your faith founded on, then? How do you know that what you believe is true; and all that it says and claims, if you haven't had a fundamental experience of it itself?
Yes, experiences are subjective but without experiences how do we judge and make any assessments of anything? One can't just sit in an armchair, in closed off room, and ponder about what life is all about without experiencing the world around you. That is how we create some idea of what meaning is by having experiences of the world. How can one have a faith of a God and not have had an experience of that God directly? That would be like pondering how sand feels without ever feeling it but just trying to guess at it.
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Dearest Mater,
Thing is, over the years most Christians on this and the BBC forum have all shared their experiences only to have them stuck under the microscope and examined by amateur head shrinks, so I see where you might find it difficult for some to share.
Gonnagle.
Thank you for sharing that, Gonny.
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My experience of God was very real and personal. I confess I never heard him speak, but he always helped me and answered my prayers, sometimes positively and other times negatively because that was what was best for me. I felt his presence often in many deeply beautiful moments.
The rest you already know.
So what made you become an atheist?
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So what is your faith founded on, then? How do you know that what you believe is true; and all that it says and claims, if you haven't had a fundamental experience of it itself?
Yes, experiences are subjective but without experiences how do we judge and make any assessments of anything? One can't just sit in an armchair, in closed off room, and ponder about what life is all about without experiencing the world around you. That is how we create some idea of what meaning is by having experiences of the world. How can one have a faith of a God and not have had an experience of that God directly? That would be like pondering how sand feels without ever feeling it but just trying to guess at it.
My walk with God is very much experiential, but my faith is not built on experience. My faith is built upon Christ and the word of God, which I have found to be trustworthy. Like I said before experience has to have a yardstick by which it can be measured. Relying solely on experience imo leaves one open to deception - after all it is said the Satan manifests as a being of light.
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My experience of God was very real and personal. I confess I never heard him speak, but he always helped me and answered my prayers, sometimes positively and other times negatively because that was what was best for me. I felt his presence often in many deeply beautiful moments.
The rest you already know.
So what made you become an atheist?
The recognition of the cruelty of the prey/predator system. I didn't understand how a God of love could have created such a heartless and vicious form of life. I prayed to God many times to make me understand why it was so, but received no reply. My faith began to dwindle, and I finally realised that I had been taken in by the whole story.
For a while I was devastated and disorientated, but gradually everything became clear and fell into place. That was indeed a wonderful experience.
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I don't have the answer to why God allows bad things to happen, no Christian has that answer. What I do have is faith and I have seen so much good come as a result of bad. I saw Americans come together like never before after the terrorist attacks on 9/11. I also believe I will have that answer when I've passed on.
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II saw Americans come together like never before after the terrorist attacks on 9/11.
That's true.
Then they invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.
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If you let humanism be your guide and stand up for others as you think is right, I think that is what matters.
Rather than your personal take on reality.
A kind heart counts for much IMO, what you believe, less so.
😀
I have only a sketchy idea of what "humanism" means, but have no need to know more. My personal take on reality is that we should live our lives respecting and helping others if we can, and damaging the environment as little as possible. That is sufficient for me.
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You sound like a humanist.
😀
"Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over established doctrine or faith (fideism)."
That describes me, except that I include empathy towards other species, i.e., not causing them unnecessary pain or suffering if it can be avoided.
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You sound like a humanist.
😀
"Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over established doctrine or faith (fideism)."
That describes me, except that I include empathy towards other species, i.e., not causing them unnecessary pain or suffering if it can be avoided.
Lots of people do include other species 😉
But it is not included in the description of humanism ... and as I consider it essential, I am excluded from that group.
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What varies is where you draw the line. A humanist can also eat meat and is not doomed to be a vegan.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat if it is obtained by humane methods.
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What varies is where you draw the line. A humanist can also eat meat and is not doomed to be a vegan.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat if it is obtained by humane methods.
If I kill someone painlessly, can I eat them?
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What varies is where you draw the line. A humanist can also eat meat and is not doomed to be a vegan.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat if it is obtained by humane methods.
If I kill someone painlessly, can I eat them?
Legally, no, and there is a small degree of justification for that from medical grounds with the possibility of various conditions being communicable.
Morally - rather depends on how voluntary that painless death was. From an ethical perspective, for me, it's just mean once you're dead.
O.
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What varies is where you draw the line. A humanist can also eat meat and is not doomed to be a vegan.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat if it is obtained by humane methods.
If I kill someone painlessly, can I eat them?
Only if they have agreed with it! ;)
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If I kill someone painlessly, can I eat them?
Legally, no, and there is a small degree of justification for that from medical grounds with the possibility of various conditions being communicable.
Morally - rather depends on how voluntary that painless death was. From an ethical perspective, for me, it's just mean once you're dead.
O.
Of course, we could get a volunteer to allow me to eat them, other than if I go to The Restaurant at The End of The Universe, that won't apply with other animals.
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What varies is where you draw the line. A humanist can also eat meat and is not doomed to be a vegan.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat if it is obtained by humane methods.
If I kill someone painlessly, can I eat them?
Painless for you or them.
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What varies is where you draw the line. A humanist can also eat meat and is not doomed to be a vegan.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat if it is obtained by humane methods.
If I kill someone painlessly, can I eat them?
I dunno ... could you? :)
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One question JK, which is there may be those who are no longer theists who might feel they 'experienced' God(s) previously but then decided, for whatever reason, that was incorrect, surely their 'testimony' might also be interesting?
I think it might prove even more interesting. Certainly people like Richard Holloway and Bart D Ehrman, who both ,at one point in their lives, received the whole evangelical God-wallop, make fascinating reading.
Apparently according to an article he contributed to the Scotsman. He became an agnostic very soon after his ordination but continued to rise up the ranks to become a Bishop. He was therefore the Anthony Blunt of the Episcopalian church.....and yes Dicky, Anthony Blunt is cockney rhyming slang.
An Anthony Blunt? Na- more a San Manuel, Bueno Martir - as in the novel by Unamuno.
To quote your hero, C.S. Lewis, "I think I can know a good man when I meet him - I'm certain I know a good man when I read him" (One of Lewis' dictums I actually agree with). And according to that maxim, paradoxically, I'm pretty certain that Holloway is a good man, whereas I'd not give such a wholehearted judgment about C.S. Lewis.
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It's surely a deadly riposte to those who argue that personal experience is an argument for God. I'm not sure how many theists do make this argument, and some are content to say that they have such experiences, without translating it into an objective state of affairs.
But then people who don't, must also count, and as NS said, those who once did, but now don't, also. The argument is feeble.
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I would just like to say that of all the many people I have met, Richard Holloway impressed me as simply good and loving. If we all be such Blunts this world would be a much better place.
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I would just like to say that of all the many people I have met, Richard Holloway impressed me as simply good and loving. If we all be such Blunts this world would be a much better place.
No, He was an agnostic very shortly after ordination but went on with the charade rising to become a Bishop for goodness sake.
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It's surely a deadly riposte to those who argue that personal experience is an argument for God. I'm not sure how many theists do make this argument, and some are content to say that they have such experiences, without translating it into an objective state of affairs.
But then people who don't, must also count, and as NS said, those who once did, but now don't, also. The argument is feeble.
And then there are those who like to play at the objective game, yet when it comes to the crunch, would fall back on their personal experience regardless:
http://youtu.be/2C3T17aKPCI
It's as if they start with their conclusion...
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So what is your faith founded on, then? How do you know that what you believe is true; and all that it says and claims, if you haven't had a fundamental experience of it itself?
Yes, experiences are subjective but without experiences how do we judge and make any assessments of anything? One can't just sit in an armchair, in closed off room, and ponder about what life is all about without experiencing the world around you. That is how we create some idea of what meaning is by having experiences of the world. How can one have a faith of a God and not have had an experience of that God directly? That would be like pondering how sand feels without ever feeling it but just trying to guess at it.
My walk with God is very much experiential, but my faith is not built on experience. My faith is built upon Christ and the word of God, which I have found to be trustworthy. Like I said before experience has to have a yardstick by which it can be measured. Relying solely on experience imo leaves one open to deception - after all it is said the Satan manifests as a being of light.
But like experience judging that some book is trustworthy needs personal experience in judging such material, and hence your yardstick. How have you judged that your word of God is trustworthy?
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My experience of God was very real and personal. I confess I never heard him speak, but he always helped me and answered my prayers, sometimes positively and other times negatively because that was what was best for me. I felt his presence often in many deeply beautiful moments.
The rest you already know.
So what made you become an atheist?
The recognition of the cruelty of the prey/predator system. I didn't understand how a God of love could have created such a heartless and vicious form of life. I prayed to God many times to make me understand why it was so, but received no reply. My faith began to dwindle, and I finally realised that I had been taken in by the whole story.
For a while I was devastated and disorientated, but gradually everything became clear and fell into place. That was indeed a wonderful experience.
And yet what you said in your initial post above has been thrown aside, and yet you had positive experiences of 'something'; experiences that can't surely be ignored, Leonard? Experiences that need some form of explanation.
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And yet what you said in your initial post above has been thrown aside, and yet you had positive experiences of 'something'; experiences that can't surely be ignored, Leonard? Experiences that need some form of explanation.
The explanation is simple, JK. I just misinterpreted the experiences as God's presence, when in fact they were the natural awe that we feel at deeply beautiful moments, like listening to wonderful music or seeing a fantastic sunset. My childhood indoctrination in Christianity was the reason for my misinterpreting.
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I would just like to say that of all the many people I have met, Richard Holloway impressed me as simply good and loving. If we all be such Blunts this world would be a much better place.
No, He was an agnostic very shortly after ordination but went on with the charade rising to become a Bishop for goodness sake.
Because he knew that reflected the experience of many of those he was ministering to. As Ian Hislop once said, it's a feature of Anglicanism to sit in the pew one week and think, 'this is all shit' and the next, 'this is all there is'. I've known Anglicans whose faith is more Holloway than Carey. Are you saying that the church shouldn't cater for them through having priests and bishops that reflect their beliefs and experiences?
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It's surely a deadly riposte to those who argue that personal experience is an argument for God. I'm not sure how many theists do make this argument, and some are content to say that they have such experiences, without translating it into an objective state of affairs.
But then people who don't, must also count, and as NS said, those who once did, but now don't, also. The argument is feeble.
And then there are those who like to play at the objective game, yet when it comes to the crunch, would fall back on their personal experience regardless:
http://youtu.be/2C3T17aKPCI
It's as if they start with their conclusion...
If you hadn't noticed the OP specifically asked for posters personal experience.
It says nothing about trying to convince others of the validity of their personal experience.
Do you have another setting other than mock?
Have YOU got anything of value to this thread? Or are you just going to mock people?
How about you get back in bed and then get out the right side this time.
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I would just like to say that of all the many people I have met, Richard Holloway impressed me as simply good and loving. If we all be such Blunts this world would be a much better place.
No, He was an agnostic very shortly after ordination but went on with the charade rising to become a Bishop for goodness sake.
For goodness sake being the operative words. He did good, you witter on and do nothing.
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Do you have another setting other than mock?
Have you got one other than whine?
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Do you have another setting other than mock?
Have you got one other than whine?
Auntie Rose seems to see it as her place to correct 'naughty' posters, since when did she become a MOD? ;D ;D ;D
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I've the same right as anyone else to stand up for myself and defend my own POV.
If only it ended there.
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I've the same right as anyone else to stand up for myself and defend my own POV.
If only it ended there.
It would if you didn't create so much mileage over everything.
You do like to butt in and stir.
Oh really? And who butted in and started threatening to squeal to the mods about a recent thread of Keith Maitland's because even though Keith had merely found a passage of writing for which he was soliciting comments from those interested, you decided people were encouraging him to commit suicide?
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If Andy hadn't sarcastically included a link to one of my posts to mock, he wouldn't be getting this response.
I think there are some crossed wires here. If you're talking about the link I posted on the "food for thought" thread, I was actually linking to one of my own posts.
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Do you have another setting other than mock?
Have you got one other than whine?
Auntie Rose seems to see it as her place to correct 'naughty' posters, since when did she become a MOD? ;D ;D ;D
I've the same right as anyone else to stand up for myself and defend my own POV.
I give as good as I get!
Oh! I forgot!
Only "some" posters are allowed to do that and get away with it.
It's ok for certain members to gang up on individuals but not ok when those individuals give as good as they get.
If Andy hadn't sarcastically included a link to one of my posts to mock, he wouldn't be getting this response.
Presumably he is a big boy and doesn't need coddling by Auntie Floo.
Temper, temper, Rose! ;D ;D ;D
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If Andy hadn't sarcastically included a link to one of my posts to mock, he wouldn't be getting this response.
I think there are some crossed wires here. If you're talking about the link I posted on the "food for thought" thread, I was actually linking to one of my own posts.
I think you owe Andy an apology, Rose.
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If Andy hadn't sarcastically included a link to one of my posts to mock, he wouldn't be getting this response.
I think there are some crossed wires here. If you're talking about the link I posted on the "food for thought" thread, I was actually linking to one of my own posts.
I think you owe Andy an apology, Rose.
Na, no need. It happens, though even if I was referring to her OP of that thread, I don't see where the mockery would be.
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That's gracious of you.
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I would just like to say that of all the many people I have met, Richard Holloway impressed me as simply good and loving. If we all be such Blunts this world would be a much better place.
No, He was an agnostic very shortly after ordination but went on with the charade rising to become a Bishop for goodness sake.
For goodness sake being the operative words. He did good, you witter on and do nothing.
You haven't got a clue what I do when I'm not on here.
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I would just like to say that of all the many people I have met, Richard Holloway impressed me as simply good and loving. If we all be such Blunts this world would be a much better place.
No, He was an agnostic very shortly after ordination but went on with the charade rising to become a Bishop for goodness sake.
For goodness sake being the operative words. He did good, you witter on and do nothing.
You haven't got a clue what I do when I'm not on here.
If I had to guess...........
http://calendarcustoms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/IMG_7900.jpg
;)
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It's surely a deadly riposte to those who argue that personal experience is an argument for God. I'm not sure how many theists do make this argument, and some are content to say that they have such experiences, without translating it into an objective state of affairs.
But then people who don't, must also count, and as NS said, those who once did, but now don't, also. The argument is feeble.
And then there are those who like to play at the objective game, yet when it comes to the crunch, would fall back on their personal experience regardless:
http://youtu.be/2C3T17aKPCI
It's as if they start with their conclusion...
If you hadn't noticed the OP specifically asked for posters personal experience.
It says nothing about trying to convince others of the validity of their personal experience.
Do you have another setting other than mock?
Have YOU got anything of value to this thread? Or are you just going to mock people?
Exactly, Rose. The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing. And sadly many atheist have tried to misuse the threads purpose.
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You haven't got a clue what I do when I'm not on here.
Does it involve lots of green ink?
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It's surely a deadly riposte to those who argue that personal experience is an argument for God. I'm not sure how many theists do make this argument, and some are content to say that they have such experiences, without translating it into an objective state of affairs.
But then people who don't, must also count, and as NS said, those who once did, but now don't, also. The argument is feeble.
And then there are those who like to play at the objective game, yet when it comes to the crunch, would fall back on their personal experience regardless:
http://youtu.be/2C3T17aKPCI
It's as if they start with their conclusion...
If you hadn't noticed the OP specifically asked for posters personal experience.
It says nothing about trying to convince others of the validity of their personal experience.
Do you have another setting other than mock?
Have YOU got anything of value to this thread? Or are you just going to mock people?
Exactly, Rose. The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing. And sadly many atheist have tried to misuse the threads purpose.
I've given you a brief account of my experience . If you want me to elaborate just ask.
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The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing.
I think the reason for that JK, is fairly obvious.
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It's surely a deadly riposte to those who argue that personal experience is an argument for God. I'm not sure how many theists do make this argument, and some are content to say that they have such experiences, without translating it into an objective state of affairs.
But then people who don't, must also count, and as NS said, those who once did, but now don't, also. The argument is feeble.
And then there are those who like to play at the objective game, yet when it comes to the crunch, would fall back on their personal experience regardless:
http://youtu.be/2C3T17aKPCI
It's as if they start with their conclusion...
If you hadn't noticed the OP specifically asked for posters personal experience.
It says nothing about trying to convince others of the validity of their personal experience.
Do you have another setting other than mock?
Have YOU got anything of value to this thread? Or are you just going to mock people?
Exactly, Rose. The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing. And sadly many atheist have tried to misuse the threads purpose.
I've given you a brief account of my experience . If you want me to elaborate just ask.
As Outrider pointed out in reply #1, which I had not considered and would not personally include in the class of being God, are those who see God more in the community psyche and its connection which is the idea I have of where you are more likely to be situated. I was hoping to hear from those more in the monotheistic, and perhaps gods/spirits, arena. Sadly, their testimonies have been disappointingly non-existent.
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The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing.
I think the reason for that JK, is fairly obvious.
I had hoped for some testimonies but it is now looking as likely as the second coming.
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The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing.
I think the reason for that JK, is fairly obvious.
I had hoped for some testimonies but it is now looking as likely as the second coming.
With a tentative reference to my own experiences (whose authenticity I have long since rejected), I note that they were dependent on reading about the religion in question first, and as such the experiences were no doubt influenced by the kind of reading I was subjecting myself to. I wonder if there are any authenticated 'spiritual' experiences of people who had the mystical zap first, before they ever were able to read up and decide what it was that had happened to them?
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People still have experiences though, doesn't always matter about culture or distance or even belief. The only thing that often differs is the interpretation.
From infancy we begin unconsciously to learn the culture and beliefs of our environment, and though we are not aware of it this can undoubtedly cause such experiences.
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People still have experiences though, doesn't always matter about culture or distance or even belief. The only thing that often differs is the interpretation.
From infancy we begin unconsciously to learn the culture and beliefs of our environment, and though we are not aware of it this can undoubtedly cause such experiences.
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I'm not sure that it can cause the experience, necessarily, I think the experiences are a phenomenon in their own right. What it may well do is create the framework in which that experience is interpreted, leading some to a religious understanding, some to presume alien abduction or ghost manifestation or just 'something odd'.
O.
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I'm not sure that it can cause the experience, necessarily, I think the experiences are a phenomenon in their own right. What it may well do is create the framework in which that experience is interpreted, leading some to a religious understanding, some to presume alien abduction or ghost manifestation or just 'something odd'.
O.
I stand corrected! The experiences are the brain's own product, but the interpretation of them is the result of nature/nurture.
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The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing.
I think the reason for that JK, is fairly obvious.
I had hoped for some testimonies but it is now looking as likely as the second coming.
With a tentative reference to my own experiences (whose authenticity I have long since rejected), I note that they were dependent on reading about the religion in question first, and as such the experiences were no doubt influenced by the kind of reading I was subjecting myself to. I wonder if there are any authenticated 'spiritual' experiences of people who had the mystical zap first, before they ever were able to read up and decide what it was that had happened to them?
I'm more interested in the detail than whether it was caused by this or that.
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These are a couple of recent things I've experienced as a pagan, JK.
One was going through a very worrying time - for some reason I hadn't walked the land for a while as I usually do. I decided to take a walk one day and Tit felt like the land rose up to meet me, I could 'hear' the land, the trees and the stones saying, why didn't you come sooner, we are here, we are always here.
Another thing happened just yesterday. I regularly walk past a brook where some tall willows grow and one came down earlier this year. The farmer had taken away most of the branches but left the stump lying across the brook like a bridge; it sprouted new growth and by the end of the summer this was a few feet high. Last week for whatever reason this growth was flailed; jagged stems and branches litter around and the trunk itself has splinters all along it. To me this feels like a desecration every bit as much as the vandalism of a church. Yesterday I felt that the willow wanted me to take some cuttings (as I'd done earlier in the year when it first came down) so that something good could arise from it, so I stopped to pick off some new growth that had been missed by the flail and I've put them in a couple of pots. At some point I'll go back to the site with some bird seed in exchange.
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These are a couple of recent things I've experienced as a pagan, JK.
One was going through a very worrying time - for some reason I hadn't walked the land for a while as I usually do. I decided to take a walk one day and Tit felt like the land rose up to meet me, I could 'hear' the land, the trees and the stones saying, why didn't you come sooner, we are here, we are always here.
Another thing happened just yesterday. I regularly walk past a brook where some tall willows grow and one came down earlier this year. The farmer had taken away most of the branches but left the stump lying across the brook like a bridge; it sprouted new growth and by the end of the summer this was a few feet high. Last week for whatever reason this growth was flailed; jagged stems and branches litter around and the trunk itself has splinters all along it. To me this feels like a desecration every bit as much as the vandalism of a church. Yesterday I felt that the willow wanted me to take some cuttings (as I'd done earlier in the year when it first came down) so that something good could arise from it, so I stopped to pick off some new growth that had been missed by the flail and I've put them in a couple of pots. At some point I'll go back to the site with some bird seed in exchange.
Ok. As I had not really considered the more open and pluralistic idea of a deity two questions follow from this. 1) How do you see your 'God' i.e. some form of a definition and 2) how does this experience then confirm, relate, explain and/or reinforce your belief in your 'God'.
Please note that my thread question was about something that happened prior to conversion, or what ever, so really it should be about what led to you becoming a pagan - you may have done this as I have the idea it was a more gradual process for you(?). But I'll take the above accounts if they add something to your overall beliefs.
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My experience was a nice little chat with " something" odd at about age 12.
Who came and sat on my bed in the night and seemed to review my life. ( mentally it was like a video being played through your head at very high speed, so you get just tiny glimpses).
Sort of along the lines of sleep paralysis but without the sleep, or the paralysis.
It was a nice experience and is surprisingly common if you look on the Internet.
Never had anything like that again though.
I wanted to introduce him to my mother, because I thought he was pretty cool but he said no, I shouted for her, he vanished instantly ( she was in the bedroom next door).
My mother freaked at the time and got my father to check all the windows and doors and wanted to call the police, because she thought it was a real man who had somehow gotten in.
About ten years ago she told me she was worried because, before I shouted, she had heard " voices" assumed the other voice was my radio.
It was weird.
But it was a very positive and nice experience, so no probs.
I just don't believe all this negative judgmental hell stuff, religions sometimes spout.
IF ( and it's a big if ) it was real, It was wonderful and not at all judgmental.
:)
I have no idea what that was though, but he weighed something, because I felt him sit on my bed.
I wasn't into religion either at 12, I wondered if he'd got the wrong house.
He had a sense of humour too.
But he never introduced himself or explained why he was there.
Did you 'see' him? or did you only hear him and 'felt' his weight.
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Jack, I don't view my paganism as something I converted to, but something I returned to. It much more reflects the beliefs and experiences that I had as a child than Christianity did, even though that is how I was raised. So the experiences I've just described reflect how I live my life, how I always have done.
I view 'God' as the living energy in all things - you can call it spirit, Tao, chi, whatever - but also creation itself is. I also think that isn't how everyone experiences God and that we need sometimes to put human ideas onto it/him/her to aid our understanding. I also think the energy of a place affects this, hence the differing deities across the world, even within the same religion. Personally I think focussed energy/minds makes these deities discernible. If you look at the myths of different cultures there are goddesses and gods who are often quite human-like in their stories, and there are archetypes that can be worked with as a way to understanding. Hence my username.
I know you are interested in archetypes; you mind find the Druid Animal Oracle interesting from a psychological point of view.
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Jack, I don't view my paganism as something I converted to, but something I returned to. It much more reflects the beliefs and experiences that I had as a child than Christianity did, even though that is how I was raised. So the experiences I've just described reflect how I live my life, how I always have done.
I view 'God' as the living energy in all things - you can call it spirit, Tao, chi, whatever - but also creation itself is. I also think that isn't how everyone experiences God and that we need sometimes to put human ideas onto it/him/her to aid our understanding. I also think the energy of a place affects this, hence the differing deities across the world, even within the same religion. Personally I think focussed energy/minds makes these deities discernible. If you look at the myths of different cultures there are goddesses and gods who are often quite human-like in their stories, and there are archetypes that can be worked with as a way to understanding. Hence my username.
I know you are interested in archetypes; you mind find the Druid Animal Oracle interesting from a psychological point of view.
Can I assume then that the experiences you had as a child were similar to the ones you have mentioned? At what point did you relate these to paganism; was it in your adulthood after your childhood experiences or did you realise they were pagan as a child?
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Yes, the experiences were very similar.
I didn't really know what paganism was; I did relate my interests and experiences together (eg natural history, folklore, archaeology). None of these are things that my family are especially interested by. In my teens I saw a Wiccan on TV and I felt very drawn to what she was talking about, but I had no way of getting in touch with her or anyone like her. Later I felt the need for structure and I went to Christianity because that was what I knew. I always felt drawn towards mysticism and the experiences in nature continued, but I was told in no uncertain terms that they were unacceptably 'pagan' and 'pagan' was drummed into me as something to be feared.
Around this time I started using the net and joined a forum on which there was a hedgewitch posting. Although alarmed by 'pagan' I felt very drawn to what she described; when I lost my faith I eventually got in touch with her to ask for help and she pointed me in the direction of some resources. Although I had to unlearn my fears around paganism, it still felt like a homecoming and now I feel authentically me; as a Christian I often felt anxious about not getting it right, which I don't any more.
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Rose, I've read quite a few similar accounts, usually from people who describe themselves as 'non religious' or 'non spiritual'.
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Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.
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Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.
I don't.
But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.
With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation, but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)
Another explainable one is faces in pictures of nature, which could be the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.
But not all experiences.
Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.
Not sure it's always the answer.
:)
And I am sure it is. :)
I think the NDE is similar for many different people because the brain starved of oxygen reacts in similar ways regardless of culture or religion, the tunnel effect being one of them.
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Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.
I don't.
But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.
With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation, but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)
Another explainable one is faces in pictures of nature, which could be the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.
But not all experiences.
Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.
Not sure it's always the answer.
:)
Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?
ippy
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My experience was a nice little chat with " something" odd at about age 12.
Who came and sat on my bed in the night and seemed to review my life. ( mentally it was like a video being played through your head at very high speed, so you get just tiny glimpses).
Sort of along the lines of sleep paralysis but without the sleep, or the paralysis.
It was a nice experience and is surprisingly common if you look on the Internet.
Never had anything like that again though.
I wanted to introduce him to my mother, because I thought he was pretty cool but he said no, I shouted for her, he vanished instantly ( she was in the bedroom next door).
My mother freaked at the time and got my father to check all the windows and doors and wanted to call the police, because she thought it was a real man who had somehow gotten in.
About ten years ago she told me she was worried because, before I shouted, she had heard " voices" assumed the other voice was my radio.
It was weird.
But it was a very positive and nice experience, so no probs.
I just don't believe all this negative judgmental hell stuff, religions sometimes spout.
IF ( and it's a big if ) it was real, It was wonderful and not at all judgmental.
:)
I have no idea what that was though, but he weighed something, because I felt him sit on my bed.
I wasn't into religion either at 12, I wondered if he'd got the wrong house.
He had a sense of humour too.
But he never introduced himself or explained why he was there.
Did you 'see' him? or did you only hear him and 'felt' his weight.
No I saw him too.
Judging by the description of the experience I would guess the emotional content of it was fairly good, not scary or fearful?
And I assume your father found all the windows and doors were securely closed?
The video thing sounds familiar. What was on the video, was it just you life to date or was there other material on it? Have you pondered on what he said?
Did it help you in away? Do you know why it occurred, as it doesn't happen to everyone? Has anything over the years shown this to be useful or given credence to it?
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Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.
I don't.
But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.
With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation, but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)
Another explainable one is faces in pictures of nature, which could be the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.
But not all experiences.
Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.
Not sure it's always the answer.
:)
Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?
ippy
Why would Christians dream of Gnostic, Alchemic and paganesque type symbolisms?
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I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
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Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.
I don't.
But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.
With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation, but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)
Another explainable one is faces in pictures of nature, which could be the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.
But not all experiences.
Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.
Not sure it's always the answer.
:)
Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?
ippy
Why would Christians dream of Gnostic, Alchemic and paganesque type symbolisms?
They're all supposed religious figures of one kind or another, come to that never heard of visa versa with a Muslim, say he or she saw Mary.
ippy
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I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.
Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).
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Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.
I don't.
But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.
With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation, but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)
Another explainable one is faces in pictures of nature, which could be the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.
But not all experiences.
Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.
Not sure it's always the answer.
:)
Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?
ippy
Why would Christians dream of Gnostic, Alchemic and paganesque type symbolisms?
They're all supposed religious figures of one kind or another, come to that never heard of visa versa with a Muslim, say he or she saw Mary.
ippy
Sorry, I forgot to say that they had no knowledge of such things and so could not have occurred from things they had consciously acquired.
I was also going to say, but I can't for the life of me find the quote, that when Jung went to Africa around the 1920's he asked about their dreams. Some had Greek god figures in them and when Jung inquired if they knew what they were they said they hadn't a clue. How could such a thing come about if they had never had any previous conscious encounter with the myths?
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Sorry, I forgot to say that they had no knowledge of such things and so could not have occurred from things they had consciously acquired.
I was also going to say, but I can't for the life of me find the quote, that when Jung went to Africa around the 1920's he asked about their dreams. Some had Greek god figures in them and when Jung inquired if they knew what they were they said they hadn't a clue. How could such a thing come about if they had never had any previous conscious encounter with the myths?
I doubt very much that they were talking about Greek god figures. They just dreamed about things that Jung interpreted as Greek gods.
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Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.
I don't.
But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.
With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation, but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)
Another explainable one is faces in pictures of nature, which could be the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.
But not all experiences.
Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.
Not sure it's always the answer.
:)
Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?
ippy
Why would Christians dream of Gnostic, Alchemic and paganesque type symbolisms?
They're all supposed religious figures of one kind or another, come to that never heard of visa versa with a Muslim, say he or she saw Mary.
ippy
Sorry, I forgot to say that they had no knowledge of such things and so could not have occurred from things they had consciously acquired.
I was also going to say, but I can't for the life of me find the quote, that when Jung went to Africa around the 1920's he asked about their dreams. Some had Greek god figures in them and when Jung inquired if they knew what they were they said they hadn't a clue. How could such a thing come about if they had never had any previous conscious encounter with the myths?
In other words these visions are all in the mind, if there were any truth/reality, in this religion/visions stuff there would be cross pollination, the fact there isn't?
ippy
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I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.
Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).
I can tell you my wife and I had a good laugh about it.
I'm looking forward to seeing my working partner soon to find out why he thought breeze blocks would be strong enough; he should know better than that?
My wife has her A levels in psychology, my niece is a Dr of psychology and so between them they say the current thinking on this subject is that crudly it's the brain clearing it's self of unwanted rubbish, I have no idea, except dreams like that are not a bother to me in fact they're rather funny.
ippy
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Whenever I dream of being 'at home' I'm never in this house, I'm in the house that I lived in ten years ago. Which speaks volumes about my life.
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Whenever I dream of being 'at home' I'm never in this house, I'm in the house that I lived in ten years ago. Which speaks volumes about my life.
Strangely true for me, but the house I grew up in.
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I don't remember having dreamed anything since childhood. I presume that I do dream, it seems universal, but I don't remember any of them.
Wonder what that means?
O.
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Maybe you are dreaming that you don't dream and just haven't woken up?
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I often wake up and think, wow, that was funny/interesting, must remember that, before promptly forgetting it. The ones I remember have an emotional intensity to them that stays with me long after waking.
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I don't remember having dreamed anything since childhood. I presume that I do dream, it seems universal, but I don't remember any of them.
Wonder what that means?
O.
IIRC you only remember a dream if you wake up (for whatever reason) while you're in one of those 15-minute periods of REM or dreaming sleep that recur every 90 minutes or so as long as you're asleep. In other words, you have to wake up while you're still dreaming to remember the dream. It seems odd in the extreme that you say you can't remember any of your dreams since childhood. Are you sure? Not at all?
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IIRC you only remember a dream if you wake up (for whatever reason) while you're in one of those 15-minute periods of REM or dreaming sleep that recur every 90 minutes or so as long as you're asleep. In other words, you have to wake up while you're still dreaming to remember the dream. It seems odd in the extreme that you say you can't remember any of your dreams since childhood. Are you sure? Not at all?
I occasionally wake up with the sensation that I've woken up from a dream - not often - but not what the content of the dream was.
O.
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Re the OP:
Well, Jack, I'm with Gonners and Rose in that Christians here haven't come forward with their accounts of their relationship with God because it is so personal. But I can see you are genuine with your enquiry and so will share some of my experiences.
Having started out a Christian, I wondered away and into new age philosophy. Here everything was wonderful and 'we are gods'. Huge red flag. This was the lie told to Eve in the garden of Eden. At the same time I was drawn to pantheism which (my own belief, now) is all part of the deception. Lucifer will do anything to draw folk away from the knowledge of the true Creator, Ahayah (God).
At some point, I met someone online that was a great help in showing me how I had been deceived. Then I had a dream that I was in a lake, and standing at the edge was Jesus and three others that I seemed to know were some of the disciples but I didn't know which ones. Jesus held out his hand to me and pulled me out of the water. In the distance was a huge white mansion that appeared to be glowing, radiantly. All very symbolic. I woke the next morning and knew something had changed.
Another account, perhaps more about faith. Many years ago, I was walking home alone and about to be confronted by a group of drunkard youths. I offered up a silent prayer and just surrendered. Almost immediately a rush of wind entered through the top of my head and exited through the area of my chest in the direction of the youths. It was a split second action and I most certainly felt and almost heard the 'whoosh'. To my relief, the group of lads turned in another direction. I haven't experienced anything like that before or since, but it was very real at the time.
(If you have any questions, I have to go out now - grandchild- minding and probably won't be able to get back to you until sometime over the weekend.)
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I don't remember having dreamed anything since childhood. I presume that I do dream, it seems universal, but I don't remember any of them.
Wonder what that means?
O.
It means you're probably suffering from memory loss, anything to help that's my nature.
ippy
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I don't remember having dreamed anything since childhood. I presume that I do dream, it seems universal, but I don't remember any of them.
Wonder what that means?
O.
It means you're probably suffering from memory loss, anything to help that's my nature.
ippy
I think someone told me that once before... maybe I dreamed it?
O.
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I don't remember having dreamed anything since childhood. I presume that I do dream, it seems universal, but I don't remember any of them.
Wonder what that means?
O.
It means you're probably suffering from memory loss, anything to help that's my nature.
ippy
I think someone told me that once before... maybe I dreamed it?
O.
No that's not right, you wouldn't have remembered if it was in a dream, you must have remembered it from elsewhere.
ippy
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I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.
Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).
I can tell you my wife and I had a good laugh about it.
I'm looking forward to seeing my working partner soon to find out why he thought breeze blocks would be strong enough; he should know better than that?
My wife has her A levels in psychology, my niece is a Dr of psychology and so between them they say the current thinking on this subject is that crudly it's the brain clearing it's self of unwanted rubbish, I have no idea, except dreams like that are not a bother to me in fact they're rather funny.
ippy
Laughter is a sign of shallowness and fear. Like those ignorant sorts who laugh at people who read books and educate themselves but really they laugh because they feel threatened.
The fact that you had to show off that some of your family had psychology qualifications says it all as this is a defence mechanism of the flight reflex.
You keep on laughing, Ippy. ;D
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I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.
Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).
I can tell you my wife and I had a good laugh about it.
I'm looking forward to seeing my working partner soon to find out why he thought breeze blocks would be strong enough; he should know better than that?
My wife has her A levels in psychology, my niece is a Dr of psychology and so between them they say the current thinking on this subject is that crudly it's the brain clearing it's self of unwanted rubbish, I have no idea, except dreams like that are not a bother to me in fact they're rather funny.
ippy
Laughter is a sign of shallowness and fear. Like those ignorant sorts who laugh at people who read books and educate themselves but really they laugh because they feel threatened.
The fact that you had to show off that some of your family had psychology qualifications says it all as this is a defence mechanism of the flight reflex.
You keep on laughing, Ippy. ;D
Strange post?
ippy
-
Re the OP:
Well, Jack, I'm with Gonners and Rose in that Christians here haven't come forward with their accounts of their relationship with God because it is so personal. But I can see you are genuine with your enquiry and so will share some of my experiences.
Having started out a Christian, I wondered away and into new age philosophy. Here everything was wonderful and 'we are gods'. Huge red flag. This was the lie told to Eve in the garden of Eden. At the same time I was drawn to pantheism which (my own belief, now) is all part of the deception. Lucifer will do anything to draw folk away from the knowledge of the true Creator, Ahayah (God).
At some point, I met someone online that was a great help in showing me how I had been deceived. Then I had a dream that I was in a lake, and standing at the edge was Jesus and three others that I seemed to know were some of the disciples but I didn't know which ones. Jesus held out his hand to me and pulled me out of the water. In the distance was a huge white mansion that appeared to be glowing, radiantly. All very symbolic. I woke the next morning and knew something had changed.
Another account, perhaps more about faith. Many years ago, I was walking home alone and about to be confronted by a group of drunkard youths. I offered up a silent prayer and just surrendered. Almost immediately a rush of wind entered through the top of my head and exited through the area of my chest in the direction of the youths. It was a split second action and I most certainly felt and almost heard the 'whoosh'. To my relief, the group of lads turned in another direction. I haven't experienced anything like that before or since, but it was very real at the time.
(If you have any questions, I have to go out now - grandchild- minding and probably won't be able to get back to you until sometime over the weekend.)
From what I gather you aren't a Christian and yet you didn't finish off the Jesus dream and what you thought had changed. If you are not a Christian what did you make of this dream?
Also, what I'm looking for is the personal event that makes people believe what they believe - their outlook on life that takes their God or 'God' to be real. Why do you hold the beliefs you do; what personal experience has given you the internal proof for this?
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My experience was a nice little chat with " something" odd at about age 12.
Who came and sat on my bed in the night and seemed to review my life. ( mentally it was like a video being played through your head at very high speed, so you get just tiny glimpses).
Sort of along the lines of sleep paralysis but without the sleep, or the paralysis.
It was a nice experience and is surprisingly common if you look on the Internet.
Never had anything like that again though.
I wanted to introduce him to my mother, because I thought he was pretty cool but he said no, I shouted for her, he vanished instantly ( she was in the bedroom next door).
My mother freaked at the time and got my father to check all the windows and doors and wanted to call the police, because she thought it was a real man who had somehow gotten in.
About ten years ago she told me she was worried because, before I shouted, she had heard " voices" assumed the other voice was my radio.
It was weird.
But it was a very positive and nice experience, so no probs.
I just don't believe all this negative judgmental hell stuff, religions sometimes spout.
IF ( and it's a big if ) it was real, It was wonderful and not at all judgmental.
:)
I have no idea what that was though, but he weighed something, because I felt him sit on my bed.
I wasn't into religion either at 12, I wondered if he'd got the wrong house.
He had a sense of humour too.
But he never introduced himself or explained why he was there.
Did you 'see' him? or did you only hear him and 'felt' his weight.
No I saw him too.
Judging by the description of the experience I would guess the emotional content of it was fairly good, not scary or fearful?
And I assume your father found all the windows and doors were securely closed?
The video thing sounds familiar. What was on the video, was it just you life to date or was there other material on it? Have you pondered on what he said?
Did it help you in away? Do you know why it occurred, as it doesn't happen to everyone? Has anything over the years shown this to be useful or given credence to it?
Hi Jack
I feel it was a pleasant experience.
Yes all the doors and windows were securely closed.
The video thing I've come across since ( nowadays we have the Internet ) in Judaism.
The only thing is Jewish Angels seem to be spirit only and don't have a body although they seem to do the video bit.
I wouldn't have read about it before the days of the Internet I had no contact with Jews. I lived in the sticks, in deepest Somerset.
The images flashing by appeared to be my future, I remember feeling relief that one day I would get married and be happily married. I also remember being disappointed I wouldn't see a UFO ( which sounds funny, but I was more into space and science fiction and at 12 wanted to see one).
It made me feel justified in binning the whole concept of hell, and also I feel people being exclusive in religion and excluding others have no real authorisation.
I have no idea why it happened, it was a bit like being a human filing cabinet 😉
I think it has made me a universalist.
I think the things that really matter are things like, being a caring person, being kind, being honest, being fair.
I don't think it matters what you believe, I think it's what you do and how you behave.
I think what is out there is too wonderful to discriminate in such an unfair way.
I accept it could all just originate in my brain as could all religious experiences, however when people discuss religion it's always there.
I think it has helped me, a lot.
I think it has influenced my philosophy of life, sort of.
:)
I feel sometimes I should make a bigger effort to be a better person less selfish perhaps, I feel I have a responsibility to try harder.
its easier to say, than do though.
:)
Just a thought, the impression of your reaction to your experience reminds me of the type of response someone has after a near death experience....?
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I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.
Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).
I can tell you my wife and I had a good laugh about it.
I'm looking forward to seeing my working partner soon to find out why he thought breeze blocks would be strong enough; he should know better than that?
My wife has her A levels in psychology, my niece is a Dr of psychology and so between them they say the current thinking on this subject is that crudly it's the brain clearing it's self of unwanted rubbish, I have no idea, except dreams like that are not a bother to me in fact they're rather funny.
ippy
Laughter is a sign of shallowness and fear. Like those ignorant sorts who laugh at people who read books and educate themselves but really they laugh because they feel threatened.
The fact that you had to show off that some of your family had psychology qualifications says it all as this is a defence mechanism of the flight reflex.
You keep on laughing, Ippy. ;D
Strange post?
ippy
I wouldn't expect someone of your simple 'down the pub' laughing manner to understand it.
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I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.
Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).
I can tell you my wife and I had a good laugh about it.
I'm looking forward to seeing my working partner soon to find out why he thought breeze blocks would be strong enough; he should know better than that?
My wife has her A levels in psychology, my niece is a Dr of psychology and so between them they say the current thinking on this subject is that crudly it's the brain clearing it's self of unwanted rubbish, I have no idea, except dreams like that are not a bother to me in fact they're rather funny.
ippy
Laughter is a sign of shallowness and fear. Like those ignorant sorts who laugh at people who read books and educate themselves but really they laugh because they feel threatened.
The fact that you had to show off that some of your family had psychology qualifications says it all as this is a defence mechanism of the flight reflex.
You keep on laughing, Ippy. ;D
Strange post?
ippy
I wouldn't expect someone of your simple 'down the pub' laughing manner to understand it.
If were simple and went to the pub or if I went somewhere, anywhere else and had a laugh, it would still, now be two rather strange posts.
ippy
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Laughter is a sign of shallowness and fear.
Eeeeh, you learn summat new every day. Round our way it's always been a sign of being amused by something, which is to say, finding something humorous.
Education is a marvelous thing.
-
I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.
Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).
I can tell you my wife and I had a good laugh about it.
I'm looking forward to seeing my working partner soon to find out why he thought breeze blocks would be strong enough; he should know better than that?
My wife has her A levels in psychology, my niece is a Dr of psychology and so between them they say the current thinking on this subject is that crudly it's the brain clearing it's self of unwanted rubbish, I have no idea, except dreams like that are not a bother to me in fact they're rather funny.
ippy
Laughter is a sign of shallowness and fear. Like those ignorant sorts who laugh at people who read books and educate themselves but really they laugh because they feel threatened.
The fact that you had to show off that some of your family had psychology qualifications says it all as this is a defence mechanism of the flight reflex.
You keep on laughing, Ippy. ;D
Strange post?
ippy
I wouldn't expect someone of your simple 'down the pub' laughing manner to understand it.
If were simple and went to the pub or if I went somewhere, anywhere else and had a laugh, it would still, now be two rather strange posts.
ippy
You're still missing my point, which doesn't surprise me.
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Laughter is a sign of shallowness and fear.
Eeeeh, you learn summat new every day. Round our way it's always been a sign of being amused by something, which is to say, finding something humorous.
Education is a marvelous thing.
That doesn't explain why we laugh, the root cause of it. Different cultures find different thing funny so it isn't the joke per se that is causing it.
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I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.
When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up?
Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.
Imagination.
ippy
P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?
Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.
Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).
I can tell you my wife and I had a good laugh about it.
I'm looking forward to seeing my working partner soon to find out why he thought breeze blocks would be strong enough; he should know better than that?
My wife has her A levels in psychology, my niece is a Dr of psychology and so between them they say the current thinking on this subject is that crudly it's the brain clearing it's self of unwanted rubbish, I have no idea, except dreams like that are not a bother to me in fact they're rather funny.
ippy
Laughter is a sign of shallowness and fear. Like those ignorant sorts who laugh at people who read books and educate themselves but really they laugh because they feel threatened.
The fact that you had to show off that some of your family had psychology qualifications says it all as this is a defence mechanism of the flight reflex.
You keep on laughing, Ippy. ;D
Strange post?
ippy
I wouldn't expect someone of your simple 'down the pub' laughing manner to understand it.
If were simple and went to the pub or if I went somewhere, anywhere else and had a laugh, it would still, now be two rather strange posts.
ippy
You're still missing my point, which doesn't surprise me.
Three somewhat strange posts.
ippy
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Re the OP:
Well, Jack, I'm with Gonners and Rose in that Christians here haven't come forward with their accounts of their relationship with God because it is so personal. But I can see you are genuine with your enquiry and so will share some of my experiences.
Having started out a Christian, I wondered away and into new age philosophy. Here everything was wonderful and 'we are gods'. Huge red flag. This was the lie told to Eve in the garden of Eden. At the same time I was drawn to pantheism which (my own belief, now) is all part of the deception. Lucifer will do anything to draw folk away from the knowledge of the true Creator, Ahayah (God).
At some point, I met someone online that was a great help in showing me how I had been deceived. Then I had a dream that I was in a lake, and standing at the edge was Jesus and three others that I seemed to know were some of the disciples but I didn't know which ones. Jesus held out his hand to me and pulled me out of the water. In the distance was a huge white mansion that appeared to be glowing, radiantly. All very symbolic. I woke the next morning and knew something had changed.
Another account, perhaps more about faith. Many years ago, I was walking home alone and about to be confronted by a group of drunkard youths. I offered up a silent prayer and just surrendered. Almost immediately a rush of wind entered through the top of my head and exited through the area of my chest in the direction of the youths. It was a split second action and I most certainly felt and almost heard the 'whoosh'. To my relief, the group of lads turned in another direction. I haven't experienced anything like that before or since, but it was very real at the time.
(If you have any questions, I have to go out now - grandchild- minding and probably won't be able to get back to you until sometime over the weekend.)
I'd have put money on someone 'showing you where you'd been led astray' Sweeatpea. If you want to know where the evil leading you astray is, look to them; the ideas they have passed onto you lead to persecution of pagans throughout society. I've encountered enough of them in everyday life and on the Internet -including this forum - to know the damage they do; they are up there with the worst of Christian persecutors of gay people. They work through fear. They do more damage to perfectly innocent people than you can imagine.
Although I'm not New Age I've hung out with enough who are to know that the idea they believe 'we are all gods' is pure fiction. They do often believe that we are all spiritual beings enjoying a physical existence, but that's virtually indistinguishable from the idea of an immortal soul housed in a physical body. But then you still like plenty of New Age things, if I recall correctly from your posts - chakras, quantum stuff, crop circles... why, if it is satanic?
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You're still missing my point, which doesn't surprise me.
Three somewhat strange posts.
ippy
Ok, let me put it this way. I'm glad your dreams are keeping you amused and entertained because something has to, even though you don't understand them and they are not intended to be jokes.
I gather that some zoos put TV's in the monkey houses because though the monkeys don't understand what is being shown it keeps them amused and they find them entertaining. Is that clear, Ippy?
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You're still missing my point, which doesn't surprise me.
Three somewhat strange posts.
ippy
Ok, let me put it this way. I'm glad your dreams are keeping you amused and entertained because something has to, even though you don't understand them and they are not intended to be jokes.
I gather that some zoos put TV's in the monkey houses because though the monkeys don't understand what is being shown it keeps them amused and they find them entertaining. Is that clear, Ippy?
Did the one in your cage keep you amused? ;D
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You're still missing my point, which doesn't surprise me.
Three somewhat strange posts.
ippy
Ok, let me put it this way. I'm glad your dreams are keeping you amused and entertained because something has to, even though you don't understand them and they are not intended to be jokes.
I gather that some zoos put TV's in the monkey houses because though the monkeys don't understand what is being shown it keeps them amused and they find them entertaining. Is that clear, Ippy?
Did the one in your cage keep you amused? ;D
Five.
ippy.
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Re the OP:
Well, Jack, I'm with Gonners and Rose in that Christians here haven't come forward with their accounts of their relationship with God because it is so personal. But I can see you are genuine with your enquiry and so will share some of my experiences.
Having started out a Christian, I wondered away and into new age philosophy. Here everything was wonderful and 'we are gods'. Huge red flag. This was the lie told to Eve in the garden of Eden. At the same time I was drawn to pantheism which (my own belief, now) is all part of the deception. Lucifer will do anything to draw folk away from the knowledge of the true Creator, Ahayah (God).
At some point, I met someone online that was a great help in showing me how I had been deceived. Then I had a dream that I was in a lake, and standing at the edge was Jesus and three others that I seemed to know were some of the disciples but I didn't know which ones. Jesus held out his hand to me and pulled me out of the water. In the distance was a huge white mansion that appeared to be glowing, radiantly. All very symbolic. I woke the next morning and knew something had changed.
Another account, perhaps more about faith. Many years ago, I was walking home alone and about to be confronted by a group of drunkard youths. I offered up a silent prayer and just surrendered. Almost immediately a rush of wind entered through the top of my head and exited through the area of my chest in the direction of the youths. It was a split second action and I most certainly felt and almost heard the 'whoosh'. To my relief, the group of lads turned in another direction. I haven't experienced anything like that before or since, but it was very real at the time.
(If you have any questions, I have to go out now - grandchild- minding and probably won't be able to get back to you until sometime over the weekend.)
From what I gather you aren't a Christian and yet you didn't finish off the Jesus dream and what you thought had changed. If you are not a Christian what did you make of this dream?
Also, what I'm looking for is the personal event that makes people believe what they believe - their outlook on life that takes their God or 'God' to be real. Why do you hold the beliefs you do; what personal experience has given you the internal proof for this?
Due to what I mentioned in my comment, it could be said I'm a 'born again'. This has all happened relatively recently, so perhaps that's what has caused the confusion. There wasn't any more to the 'Jesus' dream. What did it mean? Well, I'm no expert on interpreting dreams but I thought the water connection could be significant as a form of baptism. What had changed? That's something I can't put into words, it was like an awakening and everything suddenly became very clear. Up until then, I would read my Bible and the text was just 'words', now the passages are leaping out at me and resonating in a way they never have before.
I believe there is a Creator and His Creation:
Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning (that’s TIME) God (that’s FORCE) created (that’s ACTION) the heavens (that’s SPACE) and the earth (that’s MATTER). In the first verse of the bible, God said plainly what man didn’t catalogue until the 19th century. All that exists in the universe can be contained in 5 categories: TIME; FORCE; ACTION; SPACE & MATTER, in that sequence.
Throughout my teens I was poorly and latterly hospitialised. During that time I gained great comfort and inner strength from my relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It most certainly guided me through some dark times.
This is going to enable some cognitive dissonance, I'm sure, and so I'll leave it there, for now.
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Re the OP:
Well, Jack, I'm with Gonners and Rose in that Christians here haven't come forward with their accounts of their relationship with God because it is so personal. But I can see you are genuine with your enquiry and so will share some of my experiences.
Having started out a Christian, I wondered away and into new age philosophy. Here everything was wonderful and 'we are gods'. Huge red flag. This was the lie told to Eve in the garden of Eden. At the same time I was drawn to pantheism which (my own belief, now) is all part of the deception. Lucifer will do anything to draw folk away from the knowledge of the true Creator, Ahayah (God).
At some point, I met someone online that was a great help in showing me how I had been deceived. Then I had a dream that I was in a lake, and standing at the edge was Jesus and three others that I seemed to know were some of the disciples but I didn't know which ones. Jesus held out his hand to me and pulled me out of the water. In the distance was a huge white mansion that appeared to be glowing, radiantly. All very symbolic. I woke the next morning and knew something had changed.
Another account, perhaps more about faith. Many years ago, I was walking home alone and about to be confronted by a group of drunkard youths. I offered up a silent prayer and just surrendered. Almost immediately a rush of wind entered through the top of my head and exited through the area of my chest in the direction of the youths. It was a split second action and I most certainly felt and almost heard the 'whoosh'. To my relief, the group of lads turned in another direction. I haven't experienced anything like that before or since, but it was very real at the time.
(If you have any questions, I have to go out now - grandchild- minding and probably won't be able to get back to you until sometime over the weekend.)
I'd have put money on someone 'showing you where you'd been led astray' Sweeatpea. If you want to know where the evil leading you astray is, look to them; the ideas they have passed onto you lead to persecution of pagans throughout society. I've encountered enough of them in everyday life and on the Internet -including this forum - to know the damage they do; they are up there with the worst of Christian persecutors of gay people. They work through fear. They do more damage to perfectly innocent people than you can imagine.
Although I'm not New Age I've hung out with enough who are to know that the idea they believe 'we are all gods' is pure fiction. They do often believe that we are all spiritual beings enjoying a physical existence, but that's virtually indistinguishable from the idea of an immortal soul housed in a physical body. But then you still like plenty of New Age things, if I recall correctly from your posts - chakras, quantum stuff, crop circles... why, if it is satanic?
New age is very seductive in it's teaching - and that's the idea; people become hypnotised by the subliminal messages. 'Source consciousness' and 'Christ consciousness' are all counterfeit states. All the new agers I knew were good folk and wouldn't wish any ill to anyone. But there are always extremists, as it were, in these types of groups.
I will say, I've never come across anyone that believed they were gods but that is one of the core beliefs - we are creators - all tied in with the law of attraction. I still believe we are spiritual beings; and we're certainly experiencing being human.
I love my quantum research, so I'll continue with that; and yes, there are chakras but I won't be focussing on them as before. Crop circles - well, there's a little fun!
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But that doesn't make either New Age or paganism 'satanic'; nor does it make its adherents 'led astray by lucifer'. It isn't the path for you and that's fine, but there's no such thing as a One True Way. And even the most tenuous link between paganism and satanism leads to persecution of pagans, even today. My daughter's too afraid to be 'out' at school. We aren't free to be ourselves and yet we harm nobody.
The 'co-creator' stuff - not a fan. The LoA isn't just shit, it's damaging shit - 'magical thinking' in CBT, it's bad for anxiety and especially OCD.
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Five?
:o
Five strange posts from the same source Rose.
ippy
P S Source, of course, if you knew the trouble I have with spelling, It's a wonder I don't do this kind of faux pas a lot more often, I can assure you it wont be my last mistake with spelling.
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The conventional explanation from spiritual types that I've heard for an experience like yours, Rose, is that it is an angel visitation. A friend of mine is well-known in NA circles as an angel 'teacher' and she's massively popular with Roman Catholics, especially from the Rep of Ireland.
Mind you, I had the strangest conversation with an Irish Catholic estate agent I met randomly the other day. Too personal to recount here though.
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Rose, please share your experience.... I have had visitations myself, usually when I've been going through hard times.
It's rather ironic, but I feel I'm the one being attacked here. Jack asked for experiences and I've given mine, but I'd never criticize another's.
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Five?
:o
Five strange posts from the same sauce Rose.
ippy
Sauce? Lol
The thing is Ippy's all our knowledge of "God" or " otherworldly things" comes from human experience and recorded human experience.
Human experience is subjective and I'm not asking you to " believe " mine, it's just Jack asked why we saw things as we do.
Our own subjective experiences tend to feel true when we are confronted by others subjective experiences.
Mine is not a "Christian " one.
There was some more to it, but I'm concerned that it might not sit well with Christians on here.
It has never bothered me and I'm now nearly 58, but I know the reaction I got from my now ordained friend 😉
Some of the way I see things comes because I don't accept a Christian perspective.
I'm not asking people to believe it, but it would have been fun for me to share my reasoning, but am concerned I might overtake Rhiannon in the Satanic stakes if I do.
😄
I was driving over the Vosges mountains just before sunrise a few years back my wife and I decided to stop driving and have our breakfast, got the folding chairs sorted out the cornflakes, had the tea on the go as dawn broke, it was one of those spiritual moments for the pair of us devoted atheists, as we looked out there were dozens of small islands, mountain tops, showing through the clouds with the morning sun in the background it was certainly one of those 'wow' in capital letters moments.
This was a truly lovely memorable moment perhaps you can tell me why you might think there had to be some third party involved when seeing something so obviously beautiful but easily explained and equally easy to understand why it appeared as it did.
This is the kind of thing that confounds me about people that have mythically, superstition based and magical beliefs, why the third party? What does it do and why bother with the idea in the first place?
We all have human experiences, over the years I've never thought about third parties nor is there anything that would support the idea that there is in fact a third party of any kind, why make one up?
====
If you have another read of the rather strange posts coming from Jack as you call him, how would you reply and I don't think there is any forum rule that all posts have to be answered.
ippy
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Rose, please share your experience.... I have had visitations myself, usually when I've been going through hard times.
It's rather ironic, but I feel I'm the one being attacked here. Jack asked for experiences and I've given mine, but I'd never criticize another's.
You don't see calling the beliefs of others 'satanic' deceptions or 'led by lucifer' as critical or offensive?
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Five?
:o
You may well be shocked, most chimps can hardly count to four!
Though he hasn't reach a level where he can understand what I'm saying or suggesting.
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Re the OP:
Well, Jack, I'm with Gonners and Rose in that Christians here haven't come forward with their accounts of their relationship with God because it is so personal. But I can see you are genuine with your enquiry and so will share some of my experiences.
Having started out a Christian, I wondered away and into new age philosophy. Here everything was wonderful and 'we are gods'. Huge red flag. This was the lie told to Eve in the garden of Eden. At the same time I was drawn to pantheism which (my own belief, now) is all part of the deception. Lucifer will do anything to draw folk away from the knowledge of the true Creator, Ahayah (God).
At some point, I met someone online that was a great help in showing me how I had been deceived. Then I had a dream that I was in a lake, and standing at the edge was Jesus and three others that I seemed to know were some of the disciples but I didn't know which ones. Jesus held out his hand to me and pulled me out of the water. In the distance was a huge white mansion that appeared to be glowing, radiantly. All very symbolic. I woke the next morning and knew something had changed.
Another account, perhaps more about faith. Many years ago, I was walking home alone and about to be confronted by a group of drunkard youths. I offered up a silent prayer and just surrendered. Almost immediately a rush of wind entered through the top of my head and exited through the area of my chest in the direction of the youths. It was a split second action and I most certainly felt and almost heard the 'whoosh'. To my relief, the group of lads turned in another direction. I haven't experienced anything like that before or since, but it was very real at the time.
(If you have any questions, I have to go out now - grandchild- minding and probably won't be able to get back to you until sometime over the weekend.)
From what I gather you aren't a Christian and yet you didn't finish off the Jesus dream and what you thought had changed. If you are not a Christian what did you make of this dream?
Also, what I'm looking for is the personal event that makes people believe what they believe - their outlook on life that takes their God or 'God' to be real. Why do you hold the beliefs you do; what personal experience has given you the internal proof for this?
Due to what I mentioned in my comment, it could be said I'm a 'born again'. This has all happened relatively recently, so perhaps that's what has caused the confusion. There wasn't any more to the 'Jesus' dream. What did it mean? Well, I'm no expert on interpreting dreams but I thought the water connection could be significant as a form of baptism. What had changed? That's something I can't put into words, it was like an awakening and everything suddenly became very clear. Up until then, I would read my Bible and the text was just 'words', now the passages are leaping out at me and resonating in a way they never have before.
I believe there is a Creator and His Creation:
Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning (that’s TIME) God (that’s FORCE) created (that’s ACTION) the heavens (that’s SPACE) and the earth (that’s MATTER). In the first verse of the bible, God said plainly what man didn’t catalogue until the 19th century. All that exists in the universe can be contained in 5 categories: TIME; FORCE; ACTION; SPACE & MATTER, in that sequence.
Throughout my teens I was poorly and latterly hospitialised. During that time I gained great comfort and inner strength from my relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It most certainly guided me through some dark times.
This is going to enable some cognitive dissonance, I'm sure, and so I'll leave it there, for now.
Reading the dream again it does sound positive and encouraging.
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I have seen people on this forum mention this before, one of my posts on this thread has disappeared. Was this phenomena ever looked into?
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Rose where you have said:
"The thing is Ippy's all our knowledge of "God" or " otherworldly things comes from human experience and recorded human experience".
======
We all have "human experiences", as you call them Rose; in what possible way can any one gain any knowledge about something/anything you refer to as god or any other, "otherworldly things"?
I would say there is virtually zero chance that there is anything that either you or anyone else could imagine or find to demonstrate any kind of credibility in these so called experiences you have referred to?
I suppose in this country none of us can avoid these religion ideas of a supposed god, so anything like these spiritual moments, we all have, are so intense at times it does make most of us wonder where they have come from; it make me suppose we don't know exactly how at the moment and for others that have heard about the god idea, attribute these feelings to this god idea, instead of the rational we don't know yet.
There isn't any knowledge of this god idea simply because there has never been any solid rational evidence that
supports the idea, (try to not give if you can, an Alan Burns get out of trouble free excuse as an answer to this).
ippy
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Rose, please share your experience.... I have had visitations myself, usually when I've been going through hard times.
It's rather ironic, but I feel I'm the one being attacked here. Jack asked for experiences and I've given mine, but I'd never criticize another's.
Ok
I missed two bits out.
I described in post 131 that I felt disappointed because my future didn't seem to include seeing a UFO.
It's sounds really daft, but I was into that sort of thing at the time.
He picked up on it, and showed me "something else" that made me ecstatically happy and I remember this really strong feeling of love washing over me, but he told me I wouldn't be allowed to remember it and I really wanted to, and he said no.
That's when I really wanted him to meet my mother.
The other bit I didn't mention, was that when I saw him first, at the very beginning his eyes were slightly a dull red. ( like very dim light in the pupils)
I was scared initially but he said not to be afraid and I wasn't. What I did do, and this sounds really silly, was ask him if he was Dracula as at the time I think it was the only thing I could think of.
He started laughing and as he sat on my bed said, " no I'm not him".
I looked away and started to wonder what it was all about and when I looked back he still was having a giggle to himself,about my response.
Then he seemed to realise he had come for some reason and then held out his hand over my body, and that's when I saw that sort of mental video.
The experience has affected how I view religion, altogether really.
In the experience he never mentioned God or religion at all, never told me I had to be or do anything. The only firm connection with religion I really feel was when he showed me something and that incredible sense of love.
I don't think I would have have got that, if I hadn't been so disappointed.
I have absolutely no idea what his purpose was and he didn't sit and explain that.
As a non christened child with non religious parents who went to a very narrow minded church school, it influenced me to feel justified in rejecting all the judgmental and small universe ideas that were given out.
I figured at the time the love was unconditional and whatever lies behind religion is not small, mean minded or judgemental, as many Christians in my past suggested.
He never said I had to believe in God or be someone I wasn't or join a religion, so I came to the conclusion that quite a few religious people don't actually know what they are on about.
The bible and every other religious book is only about other people's experiences, IMO.
Given the choice, I think whatever that was, was much more knowledgable than no end of experts from various religious groups.
So that's why I'm a universalist at heart , because the only thing that would make me ecstatically happy would be, if whatever lies behind religion was non judgmental and very very fair and non discriminatory.
If the video showed you your future did it all come true? Did any parts not come true? How detailed was it?
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Ippy perhaps I worded that badly.
All our supposed knowledge of God/gods/beliefs comes from subjective human experience and is recorded in books like the bible or other religious books.
You could also add that God is just a mere word. People, who have had these unusual experiences for eons, have collectively pooled these phenomena together and developed words to captivate them in terms and notions that the social tribe can share and express. As you have said these experiences impress upon us a dynamic and meaningful significance and a vitality that signal that they are the source of life itself.
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If the video showed you your future did it all come true? Did any parts not come true? How detailed was it?
See post 131.
It was extremely fast.
To be honest, there isn't much more I can tell you about it.
OK. I did reread 131 and all it said was about a happy marriage, which is fairly standard as most people are concerned with such a basic need or wish. I was just wondering if there was anything specific and non-standard in there.
Rhetorical question really. If it went so fast how do you know it was about your future? That would imply that it was an emotional value-judgement than a recognisable depiction of events(?).
The only thing comparable with your experience (but a lot more merger) was in my teens when I was pondering life and the future, lying in bed at night, a voice called out my name. It was so real I looked up to see who was there, even though I knew no one was in the room......that's it. :-[
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Ippy perhaps I worded that badly.
All our supposed knowledge of God/gods/beliefs comes from subjective human experience and is recorded in books like the bible or other religious books.
Books such as the bible, have nothing that can establish if they're anything more than just another one of many, man made books.
I could have written a book, not a very good one, yes I know, declaring all sorts of happenings.
How about: I pulled the plug on my T V one night, the T V came on, on its own, without being plugged in and started to admonish all of the people that don't worship the "Star Trek" philosophical directives, portrayed in every other Trekki program and it started to instruct you this is the truth according to "The Star Trek Script"; I very much doubt you'd believe a word of what it is telling you or take any of it up, plus where would there be anything written or said, like this, about "Star Trek" being the truth that would hold up to investigation?
Likewise the bibles, magical, mystical and superstition content doesn't hold up to investigation Rose.
ippy
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Ippy perhaps I worded that badly.
All our supposed knowledge of God/gods/beliefs comes from subjective human experience and is recorded in books like the bible or other religious books.
Books such as the bible, have nothing that can establish if they're anything more than just another one of many, man made books.
I could have written a book, not a very good one, yes I know, declaring all sorts of happenings.
How about: I pulled the plug on my T V one night, the T V came on, on its own, without being plugged in and started to admonish all of the people that don't worship the "Star Trek" philosophical directives, portrayed in every other Trekki program and it started to instruct you this is the truth according to "The Star Trek Script"; I very much doubt you'd believe a word of what it is telling you or take any of it up, plus where would there be anything written or said, like this, about "Star Trek" being the truth that would hold up to investigation?
Likewise the bibles, magical, mystical and superstition content doesn't hold up to investigation Rose.
ippy
why don't you just say, you don't believe in anything that doesn't have a rational and provable source?
It's shorter.
I've tried to answer Jacks question, nobody has to accept it.
It's a very personal account and relates subjectively to me.
I'm not an atheist, and am never going to be one.
What's so good about the irrational? (short enough)?
ippy
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I'm not an atheist, and am never going to be one.
Nobody can foretell the future, Rose. You are happy in your belief world at the moment, but something may one day remove the veil from your eyes! :)
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What's so good about not having a spiritual side?
Nothing! I would consider life very barren without it.
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All too often (at least on the Internet ) being an Athiest seems synonymous with being closed and narrow minded and seeing any deviation of opinion as "irrational "
I don't aim to close my mind in that fashion.
It would be like wearing shackles.
Sometimes it's not so much about believing something but of being able to keep an open mind about a variety of things.
:(
Atheists at least on the Internet, don't seem to be able to do that.
Everyone is different I suppose. Not everyone is cut out to be an atheist.
The idea of being an atheist does nothing for me.
You make it sound like a choice. It's not a choice
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No, it isn't.
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Rose you posted this:
"All too often (at least on the Internet ) being an Athiest seems synonymous with being closed and narrow minded and seeing any deviation of opinion as "irrational ".
What is rational about believing in any unsupported idea?
ippy
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If it's not a choice then why are atheists apparently trying to force it on everyone else?
We are not trying to force it on others. We are trying to get you to see FOR YOURSELF that without you knowing it, your ability to reason has been misled by culture and/or religious teaching into reaching a false conclusion.
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If it's not a choice then why are atheists apparently trying to force it on everyone else?
We are not trying to force it on others. We are trying to get you to see FOR YOURSELF that without you knowing it, your ability to reason has been misled by culture and/or religious teaching into reaching a false conclusion.
Is that your business, Len? Rose hasn't tried to get you to believe her version of events and she isn't claiming 'true for you'. Any reason why you can't just let her be?
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If it's not a choice then why are atheists apparently trying to force it on everyone else?
We are not trying to force it on others. We are trying to get you to see FOR YOURSELF that without you knowing it, your ability to reason has been misled by culture and/or religious teaching into reaching a false conclusion.
Is that your business, Len? Rose hasn't tried to get you to believe her version of events and she isn't claiming 'true for you'. Any reason why you can't just let her be?
I don't like to see people conned, and religion is one of the biggest con tricks on this earth.
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But Rose isn't religious and she isn't talking about religious belief, but a personal experience.
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But Rose isn't religious and she isn't talking about religious belief, but a personal experience.
OK, then it's a personal experience engendered by a cultural belief. :)
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But Rose isn't religious and she isn't talking about religious belief, but a personal experience.
OK, then it's a personal experience engendered by a cultural belief. :)
Possibly. But that isn't a religious con.
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If it's not a choice then why are atheists apparently trying to force it on everyone else?
We are not trying to force it on others. We are trying to get you to see FOR YOURSELF that without you knowing it, your ability to reason has been misled by culture and/or religious teaching into reaching a false conclusion.
What do you mean ''we'' Len. You just point score and loudly assert.
IMHO.
I have not been misled by my culture which was ''Secular British''.
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But Rose isn't religious and she isn't talking about religious belief, but a personal experience.
OK, then it's a personal experience engendered by a cultural belief. :)
Possibly. But that isn't a religious con.
Cultural cons are just as bad as religious ones.
The real problem is the credulity of some people, and whilst I realise there isn't much we can do about genetic causes, I will still try to combat environmental influence!
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No, it's not a con, its just a subjective experience that hurts nobody and that may or may not arise from stuff within our culture (not religion btw, nothing in Rose' story fits with conventional religious dogma). What harm does it do?
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If it's not a choice then why are atheists apparently trying to force it on everyone else?
Religion scares us. It's as simple as that - religion makes/supports/allows people with good intentions do some quite horrific things. God doesn't, we don't believe in gods, and Satan doesn't, because we still don't believe in gods.
Of course, there are any number of atheists who aren't scared of religion's potential to engender abuse, but you don't hear from them because they have nothing in their atheism to communicate to anyone else.
Presumably they came to that conclusion themselves, and seem to think everyone else ought to make that choice.
We've come to that realisation and we'd like to help other people realise that truth. Most of us aren't ideological anti-theist (sorry Vlad) but as a practical anti-religious tactic, the most effective method is to ensure that religions get fewer recruits, and the best way to achieve that is to help people to realise that religions are just fairy tales with pointy hats.
If you really don't think it's a choice, what is the point?
Because if you can expose people to enough information and get them to understand then that inability to choose belief will give their faith no defence against reality.
It's one thing to put your own POV as an atheist, but that isn't what happens.
I think it normally is.
O.
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No, it's not a con, its just a subjective experience that hurts nobody and that may or may not arise from stuff within our culture (not religion btw, nothing in Rose' story fits with conventional religious dogma). What harm does it do?
More to the point .. what good does it do?
Surely it is better to just accept not knowing than to put your own (or cultural/religious) interpretation on an experience.
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But Rose isn't religious and she isn't talking about religious belief, but a personal experience.
OK, then it's a personal experience engendered by a cultural belief. :)
Possibly. But that isn't a religious con.
Cultural cons are just as bad as religious ones.
The real problem is the credulity of some people, and whilst I realise there isn't much we can do about genetic causes
Ah, thus speaks the master race.
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No, it's not a con, its just a subjective experience that hurts nobody and that may or may not arise from stuff within our culture (not religion btw, nothing in Rose' story fits with conventional religious dogma). What harm does it do?
More to the point .. what good does it do?
Surely it is better to just accept not knowing than to put your own (or cultural/religious) interpretation on an experience.
My paganism is a mix of experience and not knowing. I can't read a book on paganism that has anything along the lines of 'we believe that...' My culture is a part of what I am and I see no need to jettison it when it works quite well for me.
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Ah, thus speaks the master race.
It is entirely possible that somewhere in the future medical science will find a way to reduce the genetic inclination to be credulous.
It would be nice if humans could be immune to believing nonsense. We could still have all our romantic myths, but not be daft enough to believe them true.
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If it's not a choice then why are atheists apparently trying to force it on everyone else?
Religion scares us. It's as simple as that - religion makes/supports/allows people with good intentions do some quite horrific things. God doesn't, we don't believe in gods, and Satan doesn't, because we still don't believe in gods.
Of course, there are any number of atheists who aren't scared of religion's potential to engender abuse, but you don't hear from them because they have nothing in their atheism to communicate to anyone else.
Presumably they came to that conclusion themselves, and seem to think everyone else ought to make that choice.
We've come to that realisation and we'd like to help other people realise that truth. Most of us aren't ideological anti-theist (sorry Vlad) but as a practical anti-religious tactic, the most effective method is to ensure that religions get fewer recruits, and the best way to achieve that is to help people to realise that religions are just fairy tales with pointy hats.
If you really don't think it's a choice, what is the point?
Because if you can expose people to enough information and get them to understand then that inability to choose belief will give their faith no defence against reality.
It's one thing to put your own POV as an atheist, but that isn't what happens.
I think it normally is.
O.
So you aren't a secularist then?
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Ah, thus speaks the master race.
It is entirely possible that somewhere in the future medical science will find a way to reduce the genetic inclination to be credulous.
It would be nice if humans could be immune to believing nonsense. We could still have all our romantic myths, but not be daft enough to believe them true.
Do we understand the implications of that? What if exploring things you regard as only for the 'credulous' leads to greater understanding and discovery?
And what would the end of mysticism mean for human creativity?
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No, it's not a con, its just a subjective experience that hurts nobody and that may or may not arise from stuff within our culture (not religion btw, nothing in Rose' story fits with conventional religious dogma). What harm does it do?
More to the point .. what good does it do?
Surely it is better to just accept not knowing than to put your own (or cultural/religious) interpretation on an experience.
My paganism is a mix of experience and not knowing. I can't read a book on paganism that has anything along the lines of 'we believe that...' My culture is a part of what I am and I see no need to jettison it when it works quite well for me.
"It works quite well for me" can produce some abhorrent behaviour.
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Ah, thus speaks the master race.
It is entirely possible that somewhere in the future medical science will find a way to reduce the genetic inclination to be credulous. .
Ah, but Len, more people, including perhaps yourself, would then be able to see through your claim that you are trying to make believers see the truth for themselves and see that you are merely a loud asserter.
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No, it's not a con, its just a subjective experience that hurts nobody and that may or may not arise from stuff within our culture (not religion btw, nothing in Rose' story fits with conventional religious dogma). What harm does it do?
More to the point .. what good does it do?
Surely it is better to just accept not knowing than to put your own (or cultural/religious) interpretation on an experience.
My paganism is a mix of experience and not knowing. I can't read a book on paganism that has anything along the lines of 'we believe that...' My culture is a part of what I am and I see no need to jettison it when it works quite well for me.
"It works quite well for me" can produce some abhorrent behaviour.
But that isn't confined to religion or spirituality. Terrorising people worked quite well for the Krays. If you want to end abhorrent behaviour, wipe out humanity.
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Do we understand the implications of that? What if exploring things you regard as only for the 'credulous' leads to greater understanding and discovery?
Hypothesising is perfectly distinguishable from credulity.
And what would the end of mysticism mean for human creativity?
It wouldn't affect creativity, it would just mean accepting mysticism as romantic conjecture.
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But that isn't confined to religion or spirituality. Terrorising people worked quite well for the Krays. If you want to end abhorrent behaviour, wipe out humanity.
That's a bit drastic! :)
We can only try to teach people from infancy the Golden Rule.
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If it's not a choice then why are atheists apparently trying to force it on everyone else?
Religion scares us. It's as simple as that - religion makes/supports/allows people with good intentions do some quite horrific things. God doesn't, we don't believe in gods, and Satan doesn't, because we still don't believe in gods.
Of course, there are any number of atheists who aren't scared of religion's potential to engender abuse, but you don't hear from them because they have nothing in their atheism to communicate to anyone else.
Presumably they came to that conclusion themselves, and seem to think everyone else ought to make that choice.
We've come to that realisation and we'd like to help other people realise that truth. Most of us aren't ideological anti-theist (sorry Vlad) but as a practical anti-religious tactic, the most effective method is to ensure that religions get fewer recruits, and the best way to achieve that is to help people to realise that religions are just fairy tales with pointy hats.
If you really don't think it's a choice, what is the point?
Because if you can expose people to enough information and get them to understand then that inability to choose belief will give their faith no defence against reality.
It's one thing to put your own POV as an atheist, but that isn't what happens.
I think it normally is.
O.
So you aren't a secularist then?
Personally, yes, I am. On principle, because I think that you can't fight for peoples' rights and freedoms by trampling on other peoples' rights and freedoms, and pragmatically because I think that banning religions will feed into the 'besieged victim' mentality that entrenches the worst elements of the authoritarian nature of religious politics.
O.
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No, it's not a con, its just a subjective experience that hurts nobody and that may or may not arise from stuff within our culture (not religion btw, nothing in Rose' story fits with conventional religious dogma). What harm does it do?
More to the point .. what good does it do?
Surely it is better to just accept not knowing than to put your own (or cultural/religious) interpretation on an experience.
My paganism is a mix of experience and not knowing. I can't read a book on paganism that has anything along the lines of 'we believe that...' My culture is a part of what I am and I see no need to jettison it when it works quite well for me.
Put your paganism to one side for a period of time and see if it makes any difference; I very much doubt it will, if you did.
Ah well back to my lollipopism.
ippy
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Rose you posted this:
"All too often (at least on the Internet ) being an Athiest seems synonymous with being closed and narrow minded and seeing any deviation of opinion as "irrational ".
What is rational about believing in any unsupported idea?
ippy
It's not the believing, because no one has to believe anything, it's the unwillingness to explore different answers or look into different things.
Nothing wrong with exploring/looking for diferent answers, surely the answers that have some kind of backing, are better than those without or close to zero backing? Couldn't this view be filed under common sense?
ippy
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Rose you posted this:
"All too often (at least on the Internet ) being an Athiest seems synonymous with being closed and narrow minded and seeing any deviation of opinion as "irrational ".
What is rational about believing in any unsupported idea?
ippy
It's not the believing, because no one has to believe anything, it's the unwillingness to explore different answers or look into different things.
Nothing wrong with exploring/looking for diferent answers, surely the answers that have some kind of backing, are better than those without or close to zero backing? Couldn't this view be filed under common sense?
ippy
It depends who backs them
The consensus of Rednecks is often mistaken for common sense.
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Dear Outrider,
We've come to that realisation and we'd like to help other people realise that truth. Most of us aren't ideological anti-theist (sorry Vlad) but as a practical anti-religious tactic, the most effective method is to ensure that religions get fewer recruits, and the best way to achieve that is to help people to realise that religions are just fairy tales with pointy hats.
Boy! you need a heavy dose of Armstrong, try finding out about your subject before you brand it fairytales and pointy hats.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Outrider,
We've come to that realisation and we'd like to help other people realise that truth. Most of us aren't ideological anti-theist (sorry Vlad) but as a practical anti-religious tactic, the most effective method is to ensure that religions get fewer recruits, and the best way to achieve that is to help people to realise that religions are just fairy tales with pointy hats.
Boy! you need a heavy dose of Armstrong, try finding out about your subject before you brand it fairytales and pointy hats.
Gonnagle.
It's about 50 50% here in the UK and rising but unfortunately for your lot Gonners.
Looks like the taste for fairy tales is on it's way out at least it is here in the UK.
ippy
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Rose you posted this:
"All too often (at least on the Internet ) being an Athiest seems synonymous with being closed and narrow minded and seeing any deviation of opinion as "irrational ".
What is rational about believing in any unsupported idea?
ippy
It's not the believing, because no one has to believe anything, it's the unwillingness to explore different answers or look into different things.
Nothing wrong with exploring/looking for diferent answers, surely the answers that have some kind of backing, are better than those without or close to zero backing? Couldn't this view be filed under common sense?
ippy
It depends who backs them
The consensus of Rednecks is often mistaken for common sense.
Is that what your Tarot cards are telling you Vladicus, surely your horoscope's more accurate than Tarot cards?
ippy
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Rose you posted this:
"All too often (at least on the Internet ) being an Athiest seems synonymous with being closed and narrow minded and seeing any deviation of opinion as "irrational ".
What is rational about believing in any unsupported idea?
ippy
It's not the believing, because no one has to believe anything, it's the unwillingness to explore different answers or look into different things.
Nothing wrong with exploring/looking for diferent answers, surely the answers that have some kind of backing, are better than those without or close to zero backing? Couldn't this view be filed under common sense?
ippy
It depends who backs them
The consensus of Rednecks is often mistaken for common sense.
Is that what your Tarot cards are telling you Vladicus, surely your horoscope's more accurate than Tarot cards?
ippy
I don't do Tarot or Horoscopes. You are being deliberately offensive.
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Rose you posted this:
"All too often (at least on the Internet ) being an Athiest seems synonymous with being closed and narrow minded and seeing any deviation of opinion as "irrational ".
What is rational about believing in any unsupported idea?
ippy
It's not the believing, because no one has to believe anything, it's the unwillingness to explore different answers or look into different things.
Nothing wrong with exploring/looking for diferent answers, surely the answers that have some kind of backing, are better than those without or close to zero backing? Couldn't this view be filed under common sense?
ippy
It depends who backs them
The consensus of Rednecks is often mistaken for common sense.
Is that what your Tarot cards are telling you Vladicus, surely your horoscope's more accurate than Tarot cards?
ippy
I don't do Tarot or Horoscopes. You are being deliberately offensive.
What was that one about casting stones? Wasn't it supposed to be, although nobody knows for certain, a chippy of some sort, a redneck, said it.
ippy
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Dear Outrider,
We've come to that realisation and we'd like to help other people realise that truth. Most of us aren't ideological anti-theist (sorry Vlad) but as a practical anti-religious tactic, the most effective method is to ensure that religions get fewer recruits, and the best way to achieve that is to help people to realise that religions are just fairy tales with pointy hats.
Boy! you need a heavy dose of Armstrong, try finding out about your subject before you brand it fairytales and pointy hats.
Gonnagle.
Now come on, Gonners, be grateful to O for wanting to help us little people see the truth...one true wayism seems to be the in thing.
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Dear Outrider,
We've come to that realisation and we'd like to help other people realise that truth. Most of us aren't ideological anti-theist (sorry Vlad) but as a practical anti-religious tactic, the most effective method is to ensure that religions get fewer recruits, and the best way to achieve that is to help people to realise that religions are just fairy tales with pointy hats.
Boy! you need a heavy dose of Armstrong, try finding out about your subject before you brand it fairytales and pointy hats.
Gonnagle.
I have learnt about religion, and it's all fairy tales and pointy hats, regardless of whether there's actually a god behind them on not.
Whether the idea of god constitutes a fairy tale... it's a myth, I strongly suspect, just as the Roman gods and the Norse gods and the Babylonian, Sumerian, Inca, Aztec and who knows how many other mythos' gods were. That might fall into the same class as fairy tales, but it would be uncharitable to classify them all as fairy tales, but formalised religion - that's fairy tale all the way.
O.
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Does Armstrong say otherwise?
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Dear Rhiannon, ( and I think I am also answering Dear Outriders post )
I think I can bypass Armstrong's strong credentials as she is without a doubt the most well informed and unbiased writer on religion of this century.
Her writings on the subject of Mythos and logos, her studies regarding mythos, it goes much deeper than the description of fairytale, in fact if I have understood properly mythos was as valuable a way of thinking as logos ( logical thinking ).
(please remember that this is my way of explaining, I am not a well educated man, handsome and wind swept, just not educated ).
A typical example would be The Book of Job, a terrific myth that not only tells you of a mans trials and tribulations but that this story is timeless, it happens again and again.
And please Outrider I might be thick but even I know we can disregard God and the Devil playing games with Job.
These Myths had a purpose, to take you out of yourself, to teach, to inform, to make you actually think about life and what it was all about.
Oh and in case ippy is lurking, all myths not just Biblical.
Armstrong also states that over time the term myth has been modernised, into what Outrider now classes as a fairytale, but through intensive research of greats such as Socrates, Plato, Buddha, Confucius, she has shown that myth thinking was invaluable.
Logos was 2+2=, Mythos was how we lead our lives, how we treat our fellowman.
Hope the above helps, but maybe there is on the forum someone more scholarly than me who can explain better.
Not fairytales Outrider but there may have been some pointy hats.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon, ( and I think I am also answering Dear Outriders post )
I think I can bypass Armstrong's strong credentials as she is without a doubt the most well informed and unbiased writer on religion of this century.
Her writings on the subject of Mythos and logos, her studies regarding mythos, it goes much deeper than the description of fairytale, in fact if I have understood properly mythos was as valuable a way of thinking as logos ( logical thinking ).
(please remember that this is my way of explaining, I am not a well educated man, handsome and wind swept, just not educated ).
A typical example would be The Book of Job, a terrific myth that not only tells you of a mans trials and tribulations but that this story is timeless, it happens again and again.
And please Outrider I might be thick but even I know we can disregard God and the Devil playing games with Job.
These Myths had a purpose, to take you out of yourself, to teach, to inform, to make you actually think about life and what it was all about.
Oh and in case ippy is lurking, all myths not just Biblical.
Armstrong also states that over time the term myth has been modernised, into what Outrider now classes as a fairytale, but through intensive research of greats such as Socrates, Plato, Buddha, Confucius, she has shown that myth thinking was invaluable.
Logos was 2+2=, Mythos was how we lead our lives, how we treat our fellowman.
Hope the above helps, but maybe there is on the forum someone more scholarly than me who can explain better.
Not fairytales Outrider but there may have been some pointy hats.
Gonnagle.
The power of myth/parables/fable to convey concepts and allegories is fine, I'm more than happy to accept that idea, and the very real possibility that the Bible was intended in that fashion - that's what I was calling 'myth'.
Religion, though, is the fairy-tale version - the version where Alice really went down the rabbit-hole, the version where Cinderalla's pumpkin changed back at midnight but her glass slipper didn't, the version where Jesus really walked on water... that's fairy tale, that's just Lord of the Rings with less research and (marginally?) more adherents.
I can accept that there are some beneficial ideas in the Bible, as a work, I just don't think it's a history, and religion (as opposed to faith) does. Religion scares me, generally speaking faith doesn't.
O.
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Dear Outrider,
Stuck on the miracles, like most atheists on here, Jesus, focus on the man, his message.
To paraphrase Einstein, no myth was a powerful as the life of Jesus ( or words to that effect ).
Gonnagle.
-
Dear Rhiannon, ( and I think I am also answering Dear Outriders post )
I think I can bypass Armstrong's strong credentials as she is without a doubt the most well informed and unbiased writer on religion of this century.
Her writings on the subject of Mythos and logos, her studies regarding mythos, it goes much deeper than the description of fairytale, in fact if I have understood properly mythos was as valuable a way of thinking as logos ( logical thinking ).
(please remember that this is my way of explaining, I am not a well educated man, handsome and wind swept, just not educated ).
A typical example would be The Book of Job, a terrific myth that not only tells you of a mans trials and tribulations but that this story is timeless, it happens again and again.
And please Outrider I might be thick but even I know we can disregard God and the Devil playing games with Job.
These Myths had a purpose, to take you out of yourself, to teach, to inform, to make you actually think about life and what it was all about.
Oh and in case ippy is lurking, all myths not just Biblical.
Armstrong also states that over time the term myth has been modernised, into what Outrider now classes as a fairytale, but through intensive research of greats such as Socrates, Plato, Buddha, Confucius, she has shown that myth thinking was invaluable.
Logos was 2+2=, Mythos was how we lead our lives, how we treat our fellowman.
Hope the above helps, but maybe there is on the forum someone more scholarly than me who can explain better.
Not fairytales Outrider but there may have been some pointy hats.
Gonnagle.
The power of myth/parables/fable to convey concepts and allegories is fine, I'm more than happy to accept that idea, and the very real possibility that the Bible was intended in that fashion - that's what I was calling 'myth'.
Religion, though, is the fairy-tale version - the version where Alice really went down the rabbit-hole, the version where Cinderalla's pumpkin changed back at midnight but her glass slipper didn't, the version where Jesus really walked on water... that's fairy tale, that's just Lord of the Rings with less research and (marginally?) more adherents.
I can accept that there are some beneficial ideas in the Bible, as a work, I just don't think it's a history, and religion (as opposed to faith) does. Religion scares me, generally speaking faith doesn't.
O.
Fairy tales - the real thing mind, not Disney Princess - belong very firmly with myths and fables. Clarissa Pinkola Estes is an expert on the archetypes found in fairy tales and how they relate to patterns in our lives.
I don't think your idea that you can 'help' people become atheist is much of a runner - for starters it sounds so patronising that I want to chew my own fist off with embarrassment - but I do take your point about religion being frightening. You should be cheered by the emergence of the new spiritualities that adopt a live and let live attitude to life, as well as secular adoption of spiritual practices such as yoga and mindfulness meditation.
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Dear Outrider,
Stuck on the miracles, like most atheists on here, Jesus, focus on the man, his message.
To paraphrase Einstein, no myth was a powerful as the life of Jesus ( or words to that effect ).
Gonnagle.
That's fine, Gonners, you want the ethics and ideas to stand out, and I hope I've made it clear in the past that I think there's a great deal of creditable ethical output in the New Testament.
However, not all people who claim to be Christian tow that line, not all are prepared to take the messages and leave the myth alone.
It's not that I'm 'hung up on the miracles', particularly, it's just that I have no problem with people claiming there's the basis of some solid morality in their.
O.
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Fairy tales - the real thing mind, not Disney Princess - belong very firmly with myths and fables. Clarissa Pinkola Estes is an expert on the archetypes found in fairy tales and how they relate to patterns in our lives.
I shall add her to my ever-increasing reading list :)
I don't think your idea that you can 'help' people become atheist is much of a runner - for starters it sounds so patronising that I want to chew my own fist off with embarrassment
In the main I'm not hopeful myself - if people have grown up to believe these sorts of things then their thought patterns have already been shaped to avoid putting importance on evidence anyway. All we can hope is that we're putting the questions out for coming generations to make up their own minds with all the options in front of them.
but I do take your point about religion being frightening. You should be cheered by the emergence of the new spiritualities that adopt a live and let live attitude to life, as well as secular adoption of spiritual practices such as yoga and mindfulness meditation.
And I sound patronising :) Meditation has its place, I suppose, though I've never really felt the need for it. Just the idea of describing anything as 'spiritual' makes me cringe a little, it's a term that just comes across as meaningless.
Secularism from a social a political standpoint has to be the practical way forward, I think, and that includes allowing people to be 'spiritual' if that's their wont - 'so long as ye harm none...' as the pagans would have it, I believe.
O.
[/quote]
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'So long as ye harm none' is Wiccan - but it's the same as my maxim, 'do as you would be done by. I also have a wishful thought that 'what goes around comes around'.
O, you seem to want to help me to stop being a theist, which is patronising; I have no intention of offering to 'help you to be spiritual', but given that it seems likely that a need for some kind of spirituality is hard-wired in many of us a loose, tolerant, personal version is better than an organised religion with its demands for special treatment, dogma and tribalism?
There's a lot of evidence (the real kind) of the benefits of mindfulness meditation for health, both mental and physical. I did a link elsewhere a couple of days ago but if you want to look at the evidence of the benefits of it from a secular point of view you could look at the work of Jon Kabat Zinn, Mark Williams and Danny Penman. Yoga will keep you flexible like nothing else.
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'So long as ye harm none' is Wiccan - but it's the same as my maxim, 'do as you would be done by. I also have a wishful thought that 'what goes around comes around'.
My bad.
O, you seem to want to help me to stop being a theist, which is patronising; I have no intention of offering to 'help you to be spiritual', but given that it seems likely that a need for some kind of spirituality is hard-wired in many of us a loose, tolerant, personal version is better than an organised religion with its demands for special treatment, dogma and tribalism?
I'm not sure I want anyone to stop being a theist, per se, I want the theists to stop being part of formalised religious structures. On a practical basis I don't think theists will simply give up the structures of their religion, but I do think that with information in the public domain they will struggle more and more to recruit newcomers.
I'd suggest that it's something of a step from the evidence for an in-built inclination towards 'spirituality' to the presumption that there is therefore a need for spirituality, as the many, many perfectly happy and healthy people with no real spirituality can attest to.
There's a lot of evidence (the real kind) of the benefits of mindfulness meditation for health, both mental and physical. I did a link elsewhere a couple of days ago but if you want to look at the evidence of the benefits of it from a secular point of view you could look at the work of Jon Kabat Zinn, Mark Williams and Danny Penman.
Rest, relaxation, hobbies, these are all shown to have beneficial mental and physical effects - I wonder if anyone's reviewed whether these 'spiritual' practices have any more effect than those component parts. Which is not intended to devalue them, just to perhaps 'demystify' them.
Yoga will keep you flexible like nothing else.
Well, not like nothing else - fifteen years of Ju Jitsu gave me a stretching routine that's probably as good as anything short of circus shows and Olympic gymnastics :)
O.
[/quote]
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There's nothing mystical about mindfulness. I'm a veteran of intensive CBT and TA and rest, relaxation, self-care and hobbies are indeed part of the prescription for recovery both for physical and mental pain. The difference with mindfulness is that it teaches you to accept things as they are by becoming aware. No chanting, no looking for anything, no woo, just awareness of the breath, the body, our surroundings, movement, others, acceptance.
It's clear we don't all have an in-built need for the numinous, but some of us do, and going for that outside of formal religion strikes me as a good thing.
I don't need anything to be flexible - I'm hypermobile.
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If it's not a choice then why are atheists apparently trying to force it on everyone else?
We are not trying to force it on others. We are trying to get you to see FOR YOURSELF that without you knowing it, your ability to reason has been misled by culture and/or religious teaching into reaching a false conclusion.
Leonard, Rose's position is based on her personal experiences. You can't get someone to negate their experiences - only by bullying and peer pressure - because regardless of the validity of the explanation of the perceived events of that experience the judgement-value of what they understood by it can't be removed, just as you can't remove the way you feel, or change to being not you.
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No, it's not a con, its just a subjective experience that hurts nobody and that may or may not arise from stuff within our culture (not religion btw, nothing in Rose' story fits with conventional religious dogma). What harm does it do?
More to the point .. what good does it do?
Surely it is better to just accept not knowing than to put your own (or cultural/religious) interpretation on an experience.
The interpretation is what they feel they are being told or revealed about their own lives, about who they are. The true interpretation is NOT some explanation about it being about this religion or that, or this symbolism and some other. The actual figures, or what not, in the event is pretty much neither here nor there.
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Ah, thus speaks the master race.
It is entirely possible that somewhere in the future medical science will find a way to reduce the genetic inclination to be credulous.
It would be nice if humans could be immune to believing nonsense. We could still have all our romantic myths, but not be daft enough to believe them true.
You mean kill imagination. Have fun with that!!!
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You mean kill imagination.
No, not given the universe of difference between "This is imaginary; I know it to be so perfectly well but it is fun, can help creatively and may lead to real and true insights" and "This is true; this is real; this really happened ... despite the utter absence of evidence for it."
Artistic works are born of imagination, but the people who recognise that are those who are the most likely to point out to you that people may very well argue about but don't persecute, torture, maim and kill each other over a preference for Patience Strong over Geoffrey Hill.
There are reasons for that.
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You mean kill imagination.
No, not given the universe of difference between "This is imaginary; I know it to be so perfectly well but it is fun, can help creatively and may lead to real and true insights" and "This is true; this is real; this really happened ... despite the utter absence of evidence for it."
Artistic works are born of imagination, but the people who recognise that are those who are the most likely to point out to you that people may very well argue about but don't persecute, torture, maim and kill each other over a preference for Patience Strong over Geoffrey Hill.
There are reasons for that.
I was really referencing Leonard's use of genetic engineering to remove our imagination. He used the word 'credulous' but these are just words and in reality the functions are entwined and if it was possible to remove our credulous side it would affect our other creative functions as well.
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You mean kill imagination. Have fun with that!!!
No, I don't mean kill the imagination ... I mean get rid of the inclination to believe imagined things are true, i.e., supernatural gods.
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You mean kill imagination. Have fun with that!!!
No, I don't mean kill the imagination ... I mean get rid of the inclination to believe imagined things are true, i.e., supernatural gods.
Len, don't you see you are saying you know what is good for us with every bit as much certainty in your own rightness as the most fundamentalist Christian who wants us to see the light? There's no difference, no tolerance.
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You mean kill imagination. Have fun with that!!!
No, I don't mean kill the imagination ... I mean get rid of the inclination to believe imagined things are true, i.e., supernatural gods.
Len, don't you see you are saying you know what is good for us with every bit as much certainty in your own rightness as the most fundamentalist Christian who wants us to see the light? There's no difference, no tolerance.
Rhi how would you go about convinvcing people like Len/ippy that these supernatural things really exist and somehow have some sort of interplay with our lives.
Don't forget to keep it simple just in case your answer goes 40 feet over my head, (why 40 feet)?
ippy
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You mean kill imagination. Have fun with that!!!
No, I don't mean kill the imagination ... I mean get rid of the inclination to believe imagined things are true, i.e., supernatural gods.
Len, don't you see you are saying you know what is good for us with every bit as much certainty in your own rightness as the most fundamentalist Christian who wants us to see the light? There's no difference, no tolerance.
Rhi how would you go about convinvcing people like Len/ippy that these supernatural things really exist and somehow have some sort of interplay with our lives.
Don't forget to keep it simple just in case your answer goes 40 feet over my head, (why 40 feet)?
ippy
I have zero interest in convincing you of anything. But I don't expect you, Len or anyone else to tell me what is best for me, not least because there is no evidence that you are correct that it would be in my best interests, or anyone else's, not to have any kind of belief or spiritual practice.
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You mean kill imagination. Have fun with that!!!
No, I don't mean kill the imagination ... I mean get rid of the inclination to believe imagined things are true, i.e., supernatural gods.
Len, don't you see you are saying you know what is good for us with every bit as much certainty in your own rightness as the most fundamentalist Christian who wants us to see the light? There's no difference, no tolerance.
Rhi how would you go about convincing people like Len/ippy that these supernatural things really exist and somehow have some sort of interplay with our lives.
Don't forget to keep it simple just in case your answer goes 40 feet over my head, (why 40 feet)?
ippy
I have zero interest in convincing you of anything. But I don't expect you, Len or anyone else to tell me what is best for me, not least because there is no evidence that you are correct that it would be in my best interests, or anyone else's, not to have any kind of belief or spiritual practice.
Proving a negative, well, I don't know about that?
I don't want you to convince me of anything but it might do some good for you; if you asked yourself how you can, or could justify/explain or find a convincing way of substantiating that there is anything in these beliefs you hold.
ippy
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Ok, here's a positive. Prove being an atheist is better for me and my wellbeing.
As for the rest, you're trying to tell me what is best for me through telling me what to think. Been there, done that, when I had this thing called 'religion'.
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If one is the type of atheist that thinks all beliefs in gods are detrimental to cogent thought, then it is axiomatic that being an atheist is better. It isn't a question of demonstrating it.
Thankfully, for me, I find such veneration of the simple lack of belief to be as ridiculous as wearing white after Labor Day.
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I had to laugh at ippy's 'it might be some good for you'. Reminds me of the last JW I spoke to. Such missionary zeal! Do you have any tracts to read?
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Dearest Auntie,
Kill imagination, kill science.
What a weird lot you atheists are.
Gonnagle.
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Ok, here's a positive. Prove being an atheist is better for me and my wellbeing.
As for the rest, you're trying to tell me what is best for me through telling me what to think. Been there, done that, when I had this thing called 'religion'.
So you're not a pagan?
If you are a pagan how do you know that there's anything in it how do you manage to convince yourself?
Going by your response although there is no way of substantiating there is anything in this pagan belief of yours, you're going to believe in paganism anyway, yes I suppose that would make sense?
I see atheism as the default position, give me anything logical, rational or provable, why wouldn't I listen; trumps any superstition, myth or performances of magical tricks.
By the way I don't believe in atheism it's not a belief.
I'm sure you're are really decent person probably a very good neighbour and all of that sort of thing, it's only your ideas where we part company it doesn't mean that I'm thinking of you as a bad person, or do I wish any kind of ill on you, this is a discussion forum.
I think there has been at least a couple of times I've posted and you pointed me correctly to aspects I hadn't thought of and I've altered my view because you were making sense, even so I still find these types of belief, in as kind a way as I can put it, very much off centre and it's impossible to substantiate any of them being anywhere near the centre ground, nor do they have any factual elements that might hold them up.
If you can find anything that fully substantiates these ideas, I'll join you.
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You mean kill imagination. Have fun with that!!!
No, I don't mean kill the imagination ... I mean get rid of the inclination to believe imagined things are true, i.e., supernatural gods.
But the two are linked and convoluted, they function complementarily, so if you kill one you kill the other.
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Dearest Auntie,
Kill imagination, kill science.
What a weird lot you atheists are.
Gonnagle.
Einstein said something similar!