Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Pagan Topic => Topic started by: Rhiannon on October 01, 2015, 08:35:49 AM
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I don't know if Matt will agree with me, but perhaps the biggest thing in my pagan practice is being in tune with the seasons. Because of how I live and the things I do I'm very aware of when the May is out, the rose hips ripen, when orb web spiders appear. As the energies of nature change I find myself doing the same - I don't push myself so much in Winter as I do in Spring and summer.
Of course you don't gave to be a pagan to live this way. But when discussing my practice with others this for me the biggest pay-off I guess - a sense of connection and balance.
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I suspect that we would all benefit from being in tune with our chronobiological rhythms especially the circadian rhythm. Civilising processes like shift work and artificial light make it difficult.
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Indeed.
The academic calendar for school children doesn't help either. The longest term is the one up to Christmas and the two weeks before breakup are a whirlwind of activity, right when things should be winding down in order to fight off the inevitable winter bugs. We shouldn't have our most active period at the darkest time of the year.
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Yes, and you can add the seasonal affective disorder (SAD) which quite a number of people suffer from.
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As the basis of my practice of my belief is the Wheel of the Year I would have to say that the seasons and their changes are the very basic building blocks of my life.
It is not always easy to prevent oneself becoming a "fairweather" pagan when your Imbolc ritual is being held in the Moon Circle at Avebury and there is two or three feet of snow on the ground! Especially when the preceding Yule ritual six weeks earlier was held on top of a hill in a howling rainstorm.
This year it was my turn to write the Autumn Equinox ritual! This was not the easiest of things to do, trying to find something new to say, some new way to celebrate the landmark, when you have already done eight rituals and it does not exactly curry favour with the HPs if you repeat someone else's work!
However, the best part of observing and celebrating the seasons is to watch them pass in parade past the window of my room and to marvel at the Gaia's inventiveness and skill, her mindnumbing palette of colours, and her, sometimes, sheer bitchery at providing a sudden rainstorm just as I have put the duvet cover, pillowcases and sheets out on the line in brilliant sunshine to dry!
All part of life's rich pattern I suppose.
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I don't know if Matt will agree with me, but perhaps the biggest thing in my pagan practice is being in tune with the seasons. Because of how I live and the things I do I'm very aware of when the May is out, the rose hips ripen, when orb web spiders appear. As the energies of nature change I find myself doing the same - I don't push myself so much in Winter as I do in Spring and summer.
Of course you don't gave to be a pagan to live this way. But when discussing my practice with others this for me the biggest pay-off I guess - a sense of connection and balance.
I think one of the things that can keep you connected to the seasons is being a gardener.
My dad has always been a gardener and as a child I was much more aware of the growing season and what was available when.
I'm not a gardener and I am very much aware that I am disconnected from nature in many ways, because I can get any veg at any time or even frozen.
The only time I notice is if some items get more expensive.
I wonder if in a way if I have lost something in our modern life where we can have everything just when we want it and whether years ago the seasons were much more real and perhaps there was a greater appreciation of the things that were only available when they were in season.
Years ago people "live" the seasons, not sure all of us do now.
Perhaps we take to much for granted now, and are more distant from it.
🌹
I do not think that there is much of a "perhaps" about it.
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I don't know if Matt will agree with me, but perhaps the biggest thing in my pagan practice is being in tune with the seasons. Because of how I live and the things I do I'm very aware of when the May is out, the rose hips ripen, when orb web spiders appear. As the energies of nature change I find myself doing the same - I don't push myself so much in Winter as I do in Spring and summer.
Of course you don't gave to be a pagan to live this way. But when discussing my practice with others this for me the biggest pay-off I guess - a sense of connection and balance.
A very great deal of this matches my own life experience. Apart from a few years living near the Great Wen back in the 1990s I've lived in the countryside my entire life - being immersed in the seasons, stopping to pay attention to the natural world, are as fundamental to me as anything has ever been. There would scarcely be a life worthy of the name without it, for me. In many ways I live as 21st century life as any urbanite - laptop, smartphone and all the rest of it - but I go out of my way to keep my roots in nature constantly well nourished. I don't see anything difficult about this; the great 19th-early 20th century nature writers such as Richard Jeffries and W. H. Hudson are heroes of mine, but so are Richard Mabey and Robert MacFarlane today. Obviously I have the advantage of living a rural life; I'm not saying it would be the same for anybody living in the middle of Leeds or Bristol. Perhaps (I don't know) if you're brought up in such an environment you're less likely to feel such an intimate connection to land, landscape and nature anyway. I can't imagine I'd be the same person I am if I'd been raised in Leicester as opposed to rural Leicestershire. Many who live in cities and the larger towns can still have "access" to nature by getting in the car (or better still, on a bike), but with the aforementioned exception of three years down south, all my life it's been a case simply of putting on my coat, selecting my favourite stick and stepping out of the front door.
Every so often atheists get asked what religion they would adopt if they had to choose one. Many say Buddhism for obvious reasons; it's non-theistic, has much about it to admire, the Theravada tradition especially (unlike, say, Tibetan Buddhism) has relatively little with which a sceptical, rational Westerner can argue ... many don't even consider it a religion at all. For me the best things about it - vegetarianism; meditation and so forth - are things I've pursued for other reasons for many years without taking on board any of the other specifically Buddhist baggage. I'm not one and don't call myself one. If I had to choose then some sort of pagan path would be the obvious choice - a path with nature (and English nature at that) at the very centre of it makes the most sense to me by inclination. I don't think I can see what an overlay of religion or spirituality would add to what I already do and have done all my life, but that's just me and could, of course, possibly change in future. I can't, and therefore don't, call myself a pagan any more than a Buddhist as I'm not entitled to without adhering to a whole raft of other beliefs worthy of the name. But it's undoubtedly where my sympathies lie.
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I don't know if Matt will agree with me, but perhaps the biggest thing in my pagan practice is being in tune with the seasons. Because of how I live and the things I do I'm very aware of when the May is out, the rose hips ripen, when orb web spiders appear. As the energies of nature change I find myself doing the same - I don't push myself so much in Winter as I do in Spring and summer.
Of course you don't gave to be a pagan to live this way. But when discussing my practice with others this for me the biggest pay-off I guess - a sense of connection and balance.
A very great deal of this matches my own life experience. Apart from a few years living near the Great Wen back in the 1990s I've lived in the countryside my entire life - being immersed in the seasons, stopping to pay attention to the natural world, are as fundamental to me as anything has ever been. There would scarcely be a life worthy of the name without it, for me. In many ways I live as 21st century life as any urbanite - laptop, smartphone and all the rest of it - but I go out of my way to keep my roots in nature constantly well nourished. I don't see anything difficult about this; the great 19th-early 20th century nature writers such as Richard Jeffries and W. H. Hudson are heroes of mine, but so are Richard Mabey and Robert MacFarlane today. Obviously I have the advantage of living a rural life; I'm not saying it would be the same for anybody living in the middle of Leeds or Bristol. Perhaps (I don't know) if you're brought up in such an environment you're less likely to feel such an intimate connection to land, landscape and nature anyway. I can't imagine I'd be the same person I am if I'd been raised in Leicester as opposed to rural Leicestershire. Many who live in cities and the larger towns can still have "access" to nature by getting in the car (or better still, on a bike), but with the aforementioned exception of three years down south, all my life it's been a case simply of putting on my coat, selecting my favourite stick and stepping out of the front door.
Every so often atheists get asked what religion they would adopt if they had to choose one. Many say Buddhism for obvious reasons; it's non-theistic, has much about it to admire, the Theravada tradition especially (unlike, say, Tibetan Buddhism) has relatively little with which a sceptical, rational Westerner can argue ... many don't even consider it a religion at all. For me the best things about it - vegetarianism; meditation and so forth - are things I've pursued for other reasons for many years without taking on board any of the other specifically Buddhist baggage. I'm not one and don't call myself one. If I had to choose then some sort of pagan path would be the obvious choice - a path with nature (and English nature at that) at the very centre of it makes the most sense to me by inclination. I don't think I can see what an overlay of religion or spirituality would add to what I already do and have done all my life, but that's just me and could, of course, possibly change in future. I can't, and therefore don't, call myself a pagan any more than a Buddhist as I'm not entitled to without adhering to a whole raft of other beliefs worthy of the name. But it's undoubtedly where my sympathies lie.
Sorry ol' buddy but a fair few Pagans would count you as one of their own.
Paganism is such a broad church that the details of that belief will vary from person to person - the only difference between your opinions and mine are that you do not recognise the creator and designer of the countryside as a diety, except perhaps the Gaia - Mother Earth.
In just about everything else you posted above - you are pagan.
Welcome to the club!
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I'm sceptical but thanks all the same ;)
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Just to note I really liked Shaker's post and I was about to say it is too long to put in best bits but I think I will pop it in when I am not on the moby. That said I have almost nothing in common with it. This talk of nature makes me itchy, give me a bar anyday.
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Just to note I really liked Shaker's post and I was about to say it is too long to put in best bits but I think I will pop it in when I am not on the moby. That said I have almost nothing in common with it. This talk of nature makes me itchy, give me a bar anyday.
Without nature there would be nothing to drink in the bar - not even water.
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Unless of course I am a brain in a vat imagining a bar.
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Dear Thread,
Must be tough being a pagan in Scotland, did we actually have a summer :P :P
Dear Sane,
See those boxes outside the pub, you know, the ones on the windowsill, the colourful things inside them are called flowers ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
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Much more interested in the thing called beer.
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto
Presumably this is why you can be found gazing into your glass of beer.........
;)
yep unsubstantiated claims do make me want to drink
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Dear Rose,
You are assuming that the beer stays in the glass long enough to gaze into!!
Gonnagle.
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I don't know if Matt will agree with me, but perhaps the biggest thing in my pagan practice is being in tune with the seasons. Because of how I live and the things I do I'm very aware of when the May is out, the rose hips ripen, when orb web spiders appear. As the energies of nature change I find myself doing the same - I don't push myself so much in Winter as I do in Spring and summer.
Of course you don't gave to be a pagan to live this way. But when discussing my practice with others this for me the biggest pay-off I guess - a sense of connection and balance.
A very great deal of this matches my own life experience. Apart from a few years living near the Great Wen back in the 1990s I've lived in the countryside my entire life - being immersed in the seasons, stopping to pay attention to the natural world, are as fundamental to me as anything has ever been. There would scarcely be a life worthy of the name without it, for me. In many ways I live as 21st century life as any urbanite - laptop, smartphone and all the rest of it - but I go out of my way to keep my roots in nature constantly well nourished. I don't see anything difficult about this; the great 19th-early 20th century nature writers such as Richard Jeffries and W. H. Hudson are heroes of mine, but so are Richard Mabey and Robert MacFarlane today. Obviously I have the advantage of living a rural life; I'm not saying it would be the same for anybody living in the middle of Leeds or Bristol. Perhaps (I don't know) if you're brought up in such an environment you're less likely to feel such an intimate connection to land, landscape and nature anyway. I can't imagine I'd be the same person I am if I'd been raised in Leicester as opposed to rural Leicestershire. Many who live in cities and the larger towns can still have "access" to nature by getting in the car (or better still, on a bike), but with the aforementioned exception of three years down south, all my life it's been a case simply of putting on my coat, selecting my favourite stick and stepping out of the front door.
Every so often atheists get asked what religion they would adopt if they had to choose one. Many say Buddhism for obvious reasons; it's non-theistic, has much about it to admire, the Theravada tradition especially (unlike, say, Tibetan Buddhism) has relatively little with which a sceptical, rational Westerner can argue ... many don't even consider it a religion at all. For me the best things about it - vegetarianism; meditation and so forth - are things I've pursued for other reasons for many years without taking on board any of the other specifically Buddhist baggage. I'm not one and don't call myself one. If I had to choose then some sort of pagan path would be the obvious choice - a path with nature (and English nature at that) at the very centre of it makes the most sense to me by inclination. I don't think I can see what an overlay of religion or spirituality would add to what I already do and have done all my life, but that's just me and could, of course, possibly change in future. I can't, and therefore don't, call myself a pagan any more than a Buddhist as I'm not entitled to without adhering to a whole raft of other beliefs worthy of the name. But it's undoubtedly where my sympathies lie.
It's interesting because in some way we've arrived at a similar place, but by different routes. I didn't grow up in the country, as you know, but in East London suburbia with a family who hadn't engaged much with nature. I think I was about seven when I insisted on buying a pocket bird spotter's guide with boxes to tick, and I was hooked on knowing the names of things, learning to identify one species from another. More books came my way - old wildflower guides that I inherited, the classic Reader's Digest Book of British Birds with those amazing illustrations - and I tried to find as much as I could in the manicured park across the road.
Nature won't leave us be, thankfully, and it turned up in my back garden, much to the annoyance of my grandmother who declared that the dog rose behind my swing was 'a weed' and who made my dad mow the lawn I'd begged him to let grow long. Although I spent much of my time socialising in London, I knew I wasn't meant to be there and by the time I was twenty living in town made me quite unhappy.
This is partly why I've been so interested in finding out about my ancestry, as though there might be an echo of them in my love for nature and countryside. I've discovered just in my maternal side two rural communities, one going back to the 1600s, both forced off the land by Enclosure, both ending up in the East End, apart from the poor man who died in the workhouse some half an hour from where I, his so many times great granddaughter, now call home.
The veneer of spirituality on nature is an interesting concept - for me nature is the spirituality, and is increasingly so every day. A woman from another faith once apparently said she had no inclination to make a window into men's souls; certainly as a pagan I feel I have no right to call who is and isn't entitled to give themselves that label. Not that you feel the need anyway, but I think your 'pagan' identity would in many ways be more authentic than the plastic-fairy-and-a-bag-of-crystals kind.
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Well I am shocked! :o Two actual pagans bringing me into the fold!
ETA: Nearly Sane did me the honour of putting my earlier overlong ramblings on the 'Forum best bits' section where Gonnagle wondered what I meant by specifying English nature (rather than nature in general). Rather than derail the thread by answering the question there I thought I'd do so here.
I was specific about English nature not because I mean any disservice to the starker, craggier landscapes of Wales (where I've spent a lot of time) or Scotland but simply because, given my upbringing, it's the English landscape that I automatically think of when I think of nature. It's like word association - nature means England, even my native East Midlands specifically. There are several very (and justly) celebrated explorers and nature writers - Doughty; Wilfred Thesiger; T.E. Lawrence; Edward Abbey, those sorts of people - who fell in love with deserts. By innate temperament, taste, preference, inclination, whatever you care to call it, that's not the sort of landscape to which I would respond as they did, since my tastes run to what I suppose you might call a very European landscape - bosomy fields and valleys, rivers, lakes, woods and the like. Green places, green because of rain in abundance (which I adore), another reason why a desert landscape is the least congenial.
Throw into the mix the fact that - for unknown reasons - all my life I've been fascinated by the Anglo-Saxon era, even to the extent (because I'm fascinated by languages) of trying to learn Old English, without stellar success. It's just something which has always drawn me. Why, I couldn't say for a million pounds; I just know that it does.
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I can't grow veg particularly well. Fruit, yes. And herbs, which pretty much take care of themselves anyway.
In my dreams my next home will be blessed with mature fruit trees. And its own mixed native hedge of course - elder, hazel, field maple, hawthorn and blackthorn threaded through with old-man's-beard, woodbine and bramble.
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Thanks, Rose. Step one is getting this place sold - can't do a thing til that happens. <sigh>.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10911509/7-things-paganism-can-teach-the-modern-man.html
One pagans POV
A very good article.
This is a concise look at what modern paganism is and stands for. Unfortunately it will be summarily dismissed by the other lot as "He would say that wouldn't he" addressed to both then author of the article and myself.
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto
I am sorry NS but I cannot see anything in the link that connects it to Paganism.
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto
I am sorry NS but I cannot see anything in the link that connects it to
Paganism.
The article Rose linked to mentioned Emoto as if there was no controversy about his work.
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Not a typical pagan pov IME, although his work has some value if treated as art and not science.
Eta I meant Emoto. The article itself is ok if a bit lightweight - but in a newspaper it would be.
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Well I am shocked! :o Two actual pagans bringing me into the fold!
ETA: Nearly Sane did me the honour of putting my earlier overlong ramblings on the 'Forum best bits' section where Gonnagle wondered what I meant by specifying English nature (rather than nature in general). Rather than derail the thread by answering the question there I thought I'd do so here.
I was specific about English nature not because I mean any disservice to the starker, craggier landscapes of Wales (where I've spent a lot of time) or Scotland but simply because, given my upbringing, it's the English landscape that I automatically think of when I think of nature. It's like word association - nature means England, even my native East Midlands specifically. There are several very (and justly) celebrated explorers and nature writers - Doughty; Wilfred Thesiger; T.E. Lawrence; Edward Abbey, those sorts of people - who fell in love with deserts. By innate temperament, taste, preference, inclination, whatever you care to call it, that's not the sort of landscape to which I would respond as they did, since my tastes run to what I suppose you might call a very European landscape - bosomy fields and valleys, rivers, lakes, woods and the like. Green places, green because of rain in abundance (which I adore), another reason why a desert landscape is the least congenial.
Throw into the mix the fact that - for unknown reasons - all my life I've been fascinated by the Anglo-Saxon era, even to the extent (because I'm fascinated by languages) of trying to learn Old English, without stellar success. It's just something which has always drawn me. Why, I couldn't say for a million pounds; I just know that it does.
Shaker, what a pleasure it has been to read your posts on this thread. One of those occasions when someone you feel you've known for years genuinely suprises you. I have far more in common with you than I dared imagine.
I know precisely what you mean by English nature and, for my own part, the particular connections one can feel is something I have contemplated a great deal. It's partly a professional interest as I am in the business of nature/science communication, specifically with geological heritage. And if I had to 'pick one', a religion that is, it would be a form of paganism.
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Thanks very much :)
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I've read some of Shaker's lengthier posts on NGLr and he does have a gift in the way he expresses himself.
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CMG, a couple of questions:
".... the only difference between your opinions and mine are that you do not recognise the creator and designer of the countryside as a diety, except perhaps the Gaia - Mother Earth."
1. Who do you recognise as the deity creator and designer of the countryside?
2. I asked Jez once about Gaia but she wasn't impressed and totally dismissed her. So, why do you think that was?
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For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:
In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.
Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?
I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.
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For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:
In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.
Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?
I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.
I'm glad you are still here Sweetpea :)
It's nice when we can all share our different ideas.
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For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:
In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.
Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?
I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.
I'm glad you are still here Sweetpea :)
It's nice when we can all share our different ideas.
Thanks, Rose, I agree.
I was really tired the other evening.... and rather grumpy!! Haha....
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For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:
In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.
Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?
I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.
Personally, no. I once had someone who is into the LoA tell me my anxiety around my kids getting sick (which they did a lot, ambulance and hospital style) had manifested their illnesses. This I think is complete (not to mention disgusting) bullshit. It's actually quite important to make the distinction for anyone with a spiritual life and anxiety that our random thoughts do not create anything, even if they become compulsive. It's not uncommon for OCD to take on a spiritual form, saying the right prayers or Bible passage or blessing to keep everyone safe.
Intent is about changing you. If you want to get the girl/guy from accounts then having the intent that you will is likely to make you more confident and so more attractive - if you are prepared to take a risk and make a move. Nothing just shows up.
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For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:
In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.
Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?
I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.
I'm glad you are still here Sweetpea :)
It's nice when we can all share our different ideas.
Thanks, Rose, I agree.
I was really tired the other evening.... and rather grumpy!! Haha....
Im glad you are still here, too. <hug>
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CMG, a couple of questions:
".... the only difference between your opinions and mine are that you do not recognise the creator and designer of the countryside as a diety, except perhaps the Gaia - Mother Earth."
1. Who do you recognise as the deity creator and designer of the countryside?
2. I asked Jez once about Gaia but she wasn't impressed and totally dismissed her. So, why do you think that was?
1. I don't. The Gaia is not a deity - she is Mother Earth. I do not believe that the world was created by any deity. I have no idea where, when, how or by whom or by what the Earth was created. My deities are, where nature is concerned, within nature, the deities are nature and nature is the deities.
2. Ah yes! Jez! She was the person on the Beeb, who, like Rhi on here, I referred, as a mark of my respect for her knowledge of matters Pagan and pagan, to as Lady Jezreel. She rejected the title in print on the Beeb and then, a couple of years down the line, when we met at Avebury where I was doing a ritual with my Coven, she lambasted me as a sexist, arrogant, chauvanistic pig whose attitudes to women as demonstrated by my addressing her as Lady Jezreel should forever deny me the right to call myself Pagan or witch. We never spoke again - she ignored my posts on the Beeb and I hers. In fact I think that she was the only person ever to be ejected and barred from the Glitter Room.
Her take on matters related to paganism were almost Dianic at times and I never did find out why she had such an aversion to referring to the Gaia.
If you want a really knowledgable answer to your questions relating to matters Pagan I suggest you ask JC - he is the fount of all knowledge on the subject, knowing far better than either the Lady Rhi or I; so much so I am amazed he hasn't posted on this thread yet! (Said very very tongue in cheek!)
Or has he, I tend to ignore him these days on medical advice as his demonstrations of Christian anti-Pagan bias to the oint of hatred tend to send my blood-pressure into the stratosphere.
If you would like to ask more specific questions I will always try to answer them, but I do not profess to have all the answers, very few of them in fact, but to have someone to talk to who isn't going to use the answers given as a basis for prolonged piss-taking will be fun.
I should point out - as has been posted here both by myself and Rhi, - pagan's paths tend to be highly personal and individual, Rhi's paganism and my own are very very different so any answers or opinions that I give will be valid only foir me and not, in most cases, for pagans generally.
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Matt's knowledge of Wicca, wicca and ceremonial stuff will always be streets ahead of mine. It's not something I have really ever gone into in any depth. But like Matt, I'm always happy to answer questions.
The thing with Gaia that I think some have issues with - the whole 'Mother Earth' thing - is that for centuries much of our culture has had a 'Heavenly Father' as a counterpoint, with its implied sense of one being superior to the other. Of course Matt doesn't have that view in the slightest, but I suspect that is what bothers many people.
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Well I am shocked! :o Two actual pagans bringing me into the fold!
ETA: Nearly Sane did me the honour of putting my earlier overlong ramblings on the 'Forum best bits' section where Gonnagle wondered what I meant by specifying English nature (rather than nature in general). Rather than derail the thread by answering the question there I thought I'd do so here.
I was specific about English nature not because I mean any disservice to the starker, craggier landscapes of Wales (where I've spent a lot of time) or Scotland but simply because, given my upbringing, it's the English landscape that I automatically think of when I think of nature. It's like word association - nature means England, even my native East Midlands specifically. There are several very (and justly) celebrated explorers and nature writers - Doughty; Wilfred Thesiger; T.E. Lawrence; Edward Abbey, those sorts of people - who fell in love with deserts. By innate temperament, taste, preference, inclination, whatever you care to call it, that's not the sort of landscape to which I would respond as they did, since my tastes run to what I suppose you might call a very European landscape - bosomy fields and valleys, rivers, lakes, woods and the like. Green places, green because of rain in abundance (which I adore), another reason why a desert landscape is the least congenial.
Throw into the mix the fact that - for unknown reasons - all my life I've been fascinated by the Anglo-Saxon era, even to the extent (because I'm fascinated by languages) of trying to learn Old English, without stellar success. It's just something which has always drawn me. Why, I couldn't say for a million pounds; I just know that it does.
Shaker, what a pleasure it has been to read your posts on this thread. One of those occasions when someone you feel you've known for years genuinely suprises you. I have far more in common with you than I dared imagine.
I know precisely what you mean by English nature and, for my own part, the particular connections one can feel is something I have contemplated a great deal. It's partly a professional interest as I am in the business of nature/science communication, specifically with geological heritage. And if I had to 'pick one', a religion that is, it would be a form of paganism.
Shaker, if such a thing as a 'pagan fold' exists, neither Matt nor myself would dream of bringing you into it. But if you wanted to come in you'd be welcome. Samuel too.
Yes, I get exactly what you mean by a fascination with things past without knowing why. For me it's been a mix of English folklore and folk religion, and various periods from our past, including the Anglo-Saxon. And like both you and Samuel the idea of English nature makes sense to me - soft, undulating, enfolding. I used to holiday a lot in the Med in my teens and always loved coming back to green and rain. Is there anywhere else on earth that gets mizzle?
Samuel and I have talked in the past about a sense of geological place. As an East Anglian, even if just by adoption, I find places with big stone rather unsettling - I'm used to living on flint and clay. And even though my part of it is gently hilly rather than flat, I love having big, big skies.
Sometimes people on this forum say that they are leaving because they feel we have said all that is to be said to each other. I just don't understand that; there are always things to say and to learn here. I for one have learned so much, made some good friends, and had such enjoyable conversation; over the past week or so I think we've had some of the best yet and it's been a pleasure to be a part of it.
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Thank you, CMG and Rhiannon for your replies; and Rhiannon for your affection.... it is reciprocated, even if we do have our differences.
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Shaker
Shaker, if such a thing as a 'pagan fold' exists, neither Matt nor myself would dream of bringing you into it. But if you wanted to come in you'd be welcome.
This is one of the mainstays of Paganism - IN MOST CASES - not all!
As you will probably read in other posts on the subject proselytising is, again in most cases, frowned upon if not actually banned. In a personalised religion such as paganism it is virtually impossible to ban anything; thus, as Rhi states above, we could not "bring you into the pagan fold". It is usual that any pagan will attempt to answer any question put to them relating to their beliefs, but with certain provisos.
1 - Any answer given will be that of the speaker only. Ask 100 pagans/witches (NB not all pagans are witches (I am - Rhi, as far as I know, is not), but the vast majority of witches are pagan) the same question and the individual nature of the religion will result in 100 different answers all of which will be as valid as the next - as with everyone else you need to make up your own mind from all the answers you get.
2 - If said pagan does not have an answer for you they will usually try to put you in touch with someone that they think can give you an answer - but 1 above will still apply.
3 - If they can think of no other person who is likely to be able to help, they will probably give you the names of several books that might help and/or the names of several authors whose body of work you could investigate. You should, in this instance, understand that, if your request is made face-to-face and in the company of other pagans there is likely to be a, possibly fierce, argument as to whether any particular author is the right one on the subject.
The major difference between paganism and most other "organised" religions, I do not need to list them for a veteran poster like you, you know which ones I mean, is that you make up your own mind, no-one will force any view upon you, if they try to do so they are not, IMO, true pagans.
The above is why the adherents of the "organised" religions delight in denegrating us pagans as following a pick-and-mix religion, while, of course, we pagans reject the "one-size-fits all" religions.
Oh, and while I am at it, on the subject of books, you might come across a book entitled "The Witch's Bible" authored by Janet and Stewart Farrar. It is NOT, in the Christian sense of the word, a bible. It gives information regarding beliefs (mostly based loosely upon Alexandrian Wicca), rituals, etc - thus being a bible only in the sense of the word meaning "book".
Should you choose to investigate your own personal pagan path, you can explore no-one else's, of course, you will find that it does not lead straight to Hell; take your journey along your path one step at a time in the sure and certain knowledge that you can turn and leave the path at anytime you wish to do so without any negative comeback from the deities who will have watched you with interest. If you do choose to explore - travel well and with an open mind.
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I'm so against people telling me what to do I can't even embrace wicca as I find it too restrictive. But that's just my inner teenager probably.
Not because I think they'll teach anyone anything, but because they are a glorious mix of art, folklore and direct personal experience, I recommend the Spirit of the Hare and The Ogham Sketchbook by Karen Cater.
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Thank you, CMG and Rhiannon for your replies; and Rhiannon for your affection.... it is reciprocated, even if we do have our differences.
We go back a long way - I'd hate for us to fall out. I'm really happy for you that you are finding such fulfilment in your spiritual path now.
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I'm so against people telling me what to do I can't even embrace wicca as I find it too restrictive. But that's just my inner teenager probably.
Not because I think they'll teach anyone anything, but because they are a glorious mix of art, folklore and direct personal experience, I recommend the Spirit of the Hare and The Ogham Sketchbook by Karen Cater.
I would suggest a "Search" on Books - Subject: Paganism and Books - Subject; Modern Witchcraft - these should result in enough reading matter to last several lifetimes.
One word of advice - if the book is published by Llewellyn (an American publisher of a lot of books on the craft) keep in the forefront of your mind that Americans practice both paganism and witchcraft in, sometimes, vastly different ways to those practised in the UK. They, Americans, cannot resist "improving" anything that they take up from anywhere outside the US, including Christianity - nowhere else but the US could have spawned the obscenity that is the Westboro Baptist Church.
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I'm getting so woolly I'm not sure I like suggesting that anyone does anything.
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I'm getting so woolly I'm not sure I like suggesting that anyone does anything.
Wooly?
Rubbish!
Your comments and staements of your beliefs on this thread are as clear as could be. They have to be, otherwise this ol' fogey would never have understood them!
Bright Blessings, Sister Rhi!
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Blessed be, Matt. :)
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I think I may be on this sub-forum considerably more often than I have hitherto been. Goodness knows it can do with an injection :)
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Dearest Mother Earth,
Did something just happen. :(
Dear God,
You know that saying, the one about " stop the world I want to get off " well I have changed my mind, it just got interesting.
Gonnagle.
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I think I may be on this sub-forum considerably more often than I have hitherto been. Goodness knows it can do with an injection :)
That's welcome. Our pagan discussions became infrequent a while back because of the constant derails.
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Dearest Mother Earth,
Did something just happen. :(
Dear God,
You know that saying, the one about " stop the world I want to get off " well I have changed my mind, it just got interesting.
Gonnagle.
It has, hasn't it? :)
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I think I may be on this sub-forum considerably more often than I have hitherto been. Goodness knows it can do with an injection :)
Too true! And unpleasantly so.
It does not help, of course that, unlike on the old Beeb, there are only three pagans, all of different paths, on the entire forum and when posts are made, as Rhi has said, they are usually immediately attacked from all directions, or, if not attacked then certainly and royally taken the piss out of.
Take the usual comments:
"Tree-huggers" - this epithet was coined for the "New-Age" eco-warriors who tried to fight the growing destruction of the landscape by chaining themselves to trees. These were mostly not pagan but a few were and thus were tarred with the same brush.
"Naked dancing" - Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wiccans are required, by their originators Gerald B Gardner and Alex Sanders, to perform their rituals "sky-clad", naked, on the ground that the energy to be raised in the circle was impeded by clothing worn by those raising the energy. This requirement had more to do with the lechery of naturist Gardner than any other reason.
Working sky-clad at 9 or 10 o'clock at night during May, June, July and August might be OK, but the rest of the year it is very hard to concentrate on the raising of energy and focus on the job that that energy is being raised to perform when your personal bits are threatening to turn to ice.
"Orgies" - supposedly held 'in the woods', sometimes called the greenwood wedding, this is a hang-over from the description of a Sabbat (held on the eight points of the Wheel of the Year - Imbolc, February 1st; Spring/Vernal Equinox, March 21rd/23rd; Beltaine (or Beltane), April 30th/May 1st; Summer Solstice, June 21st; Lughnasadh (pronounced Loo-nassa), August 1st; Autumn Equinox, September 21st; Samhain (pronounced Sah-wane), October 31st; and Yule/Winter Solstice, December 21st.) held to mark the Spring Equinox. 'Supposedly' because the only evidence for these orgies comes from the torture obtained confessions during the Burning Times (q v).
"The Burning Times" - a name used to define the time of the major witch-hunts of te 14th to 17th centuries. The name is inappropriate in England as burning was the Catholic Church's punishment for heresy and witches in England, a Protestant country, were prosecuted for maleficium, causing harm by magic and those convicted were hanged.
NO - modern witchcraft is not a continuation of a craft that has survived since pre-Chritian times. This is a fallacy created by Margaret A Murray and picked up by Gardner when he created Wicca. There is little or no evidence that those persecuted as witches were witches at all, most were entirely innocent, the old women, widows, the senile, the poor, the outcasts, easy targets to be blamed for a village's misfortunes - no-body dared blame the Christian god.
As I think I might have stated previously - not all pagans are witches - I am reasonably sure that neither Rhi nor Horsethorn are witches and I have no intention of asking them and neither would I "out" them if I did - but most witches are pagans.
I hope that this information will help to dispel soem of the misinformation propagated by the Chr . . . , by our detractors.
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Who is the third? Horsethorn? I haven't seen him around for ages
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Much more interested in the thing called beer.
This time of the year produces many things that can be turned into (sometimes) pleasant alcoholic drinks, if you can be patient. Still quite a lot of blackberries around for wine, and soon the sloes will be ready, for wine - if you like doing things the hard way - or sloe gin if you like things easy. I quite get off on the process of making wine, but don't end up drinking much of it myself. I tend to give it away to friends, who I certainly shouldn't be encouraging into getting rat-arsed.
Bad year for fungi down in the SW, though. A few shaggy parasols and shaggy ink-caps, and the odd puff-ball. But I did see a couple of Amanita Phalloides, and felt strangely tempted to experiment (not on myself, but I can think of a few deserving causes)
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My spiced blackberry brandy is legendary among me and a few other people. I've yet to find an ailment it doesn't cure, or at least stop you caring about.
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My spiced blackberry brandy is legendary among me and a few other people. I've yet to find an ailment it doesn't cure, or at least stop you caring about.
I still want to try some of that :)
Used to make my own wine - very enjoyable drinking the finished product but I did get tired of the tremendous faff involved with the sterilisation of everything, etc. I've always said I'd have a go at brewing my own ale, which is less complicated.
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That's why fruit brandies are so good - really easy.
Will put the recipe up on the recipe sticky later.
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Much more interested in the thing called beer.
This time of the year produces many things that can be turned into (sometimes) pleasant alcoholic drinks, if you can be patient. Still quite a lot of blackberries around for wine, and soon the sloes will be ready, for wine - if you like doing things the hard way - or sloe gin if you like things easy. I quite get off on the process of making wine, but don't end up drinking much of it myself. I tend to give it away to friends, who I certainly shouldn't be encouraging into getting rat-arsed.
Bad year for fungi down in the SW, though. A few shaggy parasols and shaggy ink-caps, and the odd puff-ball. But I did see a couple of Amanita Phalloides, and felt strangely tempted to experiment (not on myself, but I can think of a few deserving causes)
Honey is available all year round for the production of the earliest alcholic drink known to man - mead!
Not, however, recommended for a diabetic such as myself! DAMMIT!
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Much more interested in the thing called beer.
This time of the year produces many things that can be turned into (sometimes) pleasant alcoholic drinks, if you can be patient. Still quite a lot of blackberries around for wine, and soon the sloes will be ready, for wine - if you like doing things the hard way - or sloe gin if you like things easy. I quite get off on the process of making wine, but don't end up drinking much of it myself. I tend to give it away to friends, who I certainly shouldn't be encouraging into getting rat-arsed.
Bad year for fungi down in the SW, though. A few shaggy parasols and shaggy ink-caps, and the odd puff-ball. But I did see a couple of Amanita Phalloides, and felt strangely tempted to experiment (not on myself, but I can think of a few deserving causes)
Honey is available all year round for the production of the earliest alcholic drink known to man - mead!
Not, however, recommended for a diabetic such as myself! DAMMIT!
It's worrying how many people are diabetic nowadays, I suppose tests are more accurate.
Far too many.
I was 51 when I was diagnosed with teenage onset diabetes! Go figure.
More people are being diagniosed and one of the most widespead causes is obesity. A waist measurement of 37 inches (if you are male) and 31.5 inches (if female) and a blood sugar level check might be a good idea - see your doctor.
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I was enjoying reading this thread. Rhi was it you that struggle with growing veggies? Don't ever give up, try zucchini, it will grow in most conditions and is a big producer. Just look up what conditions your veggie choice needs. Soil, light, heavy feeder or light, what pests to watch for.
Rose, start with something tough and looks great. Zonal geraniums(pelargonium) with the wild storms in my area they are a must for me.
I'm in the middle of putting my yard to bed but this was what it looked like this summer but as you can see Rose, I use a lot of geraniums
And hello to you dearest matty.
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/JohnCm_bucket/P1020693_zpsh1dwekhc.jpg
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/JohnCm_bucket/P1020692_zpsrvogqgcm.jpg
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/JohnCm_bucket/P1020695_zpslvto11zq.jpg
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/JohnCm_bucket/P1020707_zpsjzppeya3.jpg
I enjoy all seasons, even in at -25 I will bundle up and head down the hill at night and walk the river path. But I never stop growing plants. My begonias for customers next spring will be seeded in my basement as soon as the seeds get here from South Carolina. Thankfully they shipped them just before they got hit with all the terrible flooding.
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I thought I'd give this thread a revival given the quality of the writing and the interesting points of view here.
It's been a strange winter so far and time is running out for a 'proper' one to arrive - only a handful of hard frosts and no snow except for one blizzard that didn't settle. But so wet which makes walking on the muddy fields incredibly slippy due to the clay. There's definitely something unsettling about not having a winter in which coats and scarves have been necessary. There have been bonuses though - evenings spent at least partly outside under the stars at a time of year that would normally be far too cold for one.
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I thought I'd give this thread a revival given the quality of the writing and the interesting points of view here.
It's been a strange winter so far and time is running out for a 'proper' one to arrive - only a handful of hard frosts and no snow except for one blizzard that didn't settle. But so wet which makes walking on the muddy fields incredibly slippy due to the clay. There's definitely something unsettling about not having a winter in which coats and scarves have been necessary. There have been bonuses though - evenings spent at least partly outside under the stars at a time of year that would normally be far too cold for one.
I'm glad that this thread has been revived - I've enjoyed it very much and, I hope, had something to contribute to it.
While people think of winter covering December to February, the image of a cold, snowy Christmas can mislead - January and February are typically the coldest months of the year (it can of course snow significantly well into April, and I'm referring to the East Midlands here and not Scotland), hence snowdrops (clue is in the name) appearing in February.
I think it was in Watership Down that Richard Adams said that what humans enjoy about winter is not the winter itself but being able to insulate themselves from it - hence the pleasure (to me and like-minded people) of winter overcoats, woolly hats, scarves, gloves and wellies. I'm a confirmed winter lover and actively embrace harsh weather - a mild winter seems wrong, unfitting, out of place; winter is supposed to be cold and gloomy. Even the majority of people who I would say dislike winter and can't wait for it to be over recognise this and are themselves apt to moan about an unseasonably mild winter.
Near at hand on a small foothill of my to-read mountain is a wonderful book called The Seasons: A Celebration of the English Year by Nick Groom*. It's an unapologetically England-centric examination of the English seasons, English weather and associated traditions, mythology and folklore. The ominous thing about is that, being a 2013 book, it's written very much with the shadow of climate change hovering over it and an elegaic tone - Groom's idea in writing the books seems to have been to erect a memorial for a set of clearly-defined seasons and the traditions associated with them, both probably doomed to disappear for ever, and soon.
Sad stuff :(
* http://goo.gl/bxexey
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I thought I'd give this thread a revival given the quality of the writing and the interesting points of view here.
It's been a strange winter so far and time is running out for a 'proper' one to arrive - only a handful of hard frosts and no snow except for one blizzard that didn't settle. But so wet which makes walking on the muddy fields incredibly slippy due to the clay. There's definitely something unsettling about not having a winter in which coats and scarves have been necessary. There have been bonuses though - evenings spent at least partly outside under the stars at a time of year that would normally be far too cold for one.
It has been incredibly mild recently. Mild enough for me to visit some friends at another coven and to work skyclad, in January no less.
When the wind gets up it can, however, be quite nippy even when wrapped up for the Arctic!
Looking at this thread I wonder if Shaker is JC's fourth Pagan?
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It has been incredibly mild recently. Mild enough for me to visit some friends at another coven and to work skyclad, in January no less.
When the wind gets up it can, however, be quite nippy even when wrapped up for the Arctic!
Looking at this thread I wonder if Shaker is JC's fourth Pagan?
We're unlikely ever to find out!
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Dear Season Lovers,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrZKZlJV4S8
Why, because this is a nice thread, a sharing thread.
Put yer headphones on and enjoy.
Gonnagle.
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#70 Shaker,
I agree so much - like you I love winter (I expect that one reason I love autumn so much too is because winter is heading in) - insulating ourselves is definitely a part of it but so is being exposed to it - it reminds us of our place in things. A winter such as this might be an anomaly - but it may well not be.
Much of the contemporary British nature writing has an elegiac quality to it. And that on folklore too... We seem to be waking up to what we are losing, not just as climate change looms but in the ways the countryside is being destroyed and plundered. We can't imagine what birdsong must have sounded like to John Clare's ears because our farmland birds have plummeted so far in number. I heard a single skylark today - imagine what a sky full of them sounded like.
Where I live three village pubs have closed in the past few months. Each of them offered open mic nights for folk music. Each of them offered their own unique village events. What fills the vacuum now that they've gone? If we sneer at the Morris dancers and the Molly Men who will step up to carry on these traditions once the current generation dies out - maybe some will take the view that it doesn't matter.
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Just thinking...this reflects very much the discussion on the sacredness thread. If people can't see that some things are sacred (meaning to be treated with care and not taken for granted) - daisies, earthworms, hawthorn, sparrows, winter - then there is a very real danger of losing so much that we'll go long before the last 'weeds' have perished. And really will we deserve any different?
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I hate it when farmers remove hedges altogether, hedges support variety.
They are also the 'highways' by which species move from one territory or feeding ground to another.
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Just thinking...this reflects very much the discussion on the sacredness thread. If people can't see that some things are sacred (meaning to be treated with care and not taken for granted) - daisies, earthworms, hawthorn, sparrows, winter - then there is a very real danger of losing so much that we'll go long before the last 'weeds' have perished. And really will we deserve any different?
What is a weed? A plant growing somewhere where someone doesn't want it to grow!
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What is a weed? A plant growing somewhere where someone doesn't want it to grow!
Got it in one.
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Just to note I really liked Shaker's post and I was about to say it is too long to put in best bits but I think I will pop it in when I am not on the moby. That said I have almost nothing in common with it. This talk of nature makes me itchy, give me a bar anyday.
And where would you like the bar put.... ;D
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Dear Thread,
Must be tough being a pagan in Scotland, did we actually have a summer :P :P
Dear Sane,
See those boxes outside the pub, you know, the ones on the windowsill, the colourful things inside them are called flowers ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
They don't even know what fruit and veg is.
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Well I am shocked! :o Two actual pagans bringing me into the fold!
ETA: Nearly Sane did me the honour of putting my earlier overlong ramblings on the 'Forum best bits' section where Gonnagle wondered what I meant by specifying English nature (rather than nature in general). Rather than derail the thread by answering the question there I thought I'd do so here.
I was specific about English nature not because I mean any disservice to the starker, craggier landscapes of Wales (where I've spent a lot of time) or Scotland but simply because, given my upbringing, it's the English landscape that I automatically think of when I think of nature. It's like word association - nature means England, even my native East Midlands specifically. There are several very (and justly) celebrated explorers and nature writers - Doughty; Wilfred Thesiger; T.E. Lawrence; Edward Abbey, those sorts of people - who fell in love with deserts. By innate temperament, taste, preference, inclination, whatever you care to call it, that's not the sort of landscape to which I would respond as they did, since my tastes run to what I suppose you might call a very European landscape - bosomy fields and valleys, rivers, lakes, woods and the like. Green places, green because of rain in abundance (which I adore), another reason why a desert landscape is the least congenial.
Throw into the mix the fact that - for unknown reasons - all my life I've been fascinated by the Anglo-Saxon era, even to the extent (because I'm fascinated by languages) of trying to learn Old English, without stellar success. It's just something which has always drawn me. Why, I couldn't say for a million pounds; I just know that it does.
Shaker, you always come across as a hard atheist but your showing your soft fluffy side. A few more steps and you could find yourself in the pagan/New Age camp.
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Shaker, you always come across as a hard atheist but your showing your soft fluffy side. A few more steps and you could find yourself in the pagan/New Age camp.
I'd be surprised to say the least but Owly did say (in #8) that there would be a few pagans who would classify me as such!
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I think I may be on this sub-forum considerably more often than I have hitherto been. Goodness knows it can do with an injection :)
One step closer.....
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Few pagans take kindly to being called a) New Age or b) fluffy. ;)
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Few pagans take kindly to being called a) New Age or b) fluffy. ;)
Well this raises the question what is a pagan?
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Well this raises the question what is a pagan?
That's hard to answer, but 'not New Age' is a correct answer.
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Well this raises the question what is a pagan?
I don't know about Rhiannon, biut I for one, am fed up with being asked this question, on this forum as well as other places, explaining what my pagan belief is and getting the piss right royally taken out of what I have said.
I hold my beliefs as strongly as do the Chrsitian fundamentalists of various stripes on here. They get irate, to varying degrees, if someone takes the piss out of what they believe but feel perfectly entitled, because, presumably, theirs is the one true faith/deity, to trash mine.
Sorry JK, but you are going to have to look elsewhere for an answer to your question.
All I will say is that, if Rhiannon answers, her viewpoint will be vastly different to mine for, although we both tread Pagan paths, they are entirely different from each other..
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I'd be surprised to say the least but Owly did say (in #8) that there would be a few pagans who would classify me as such!
I would be interested to hear what gods they think you believe in.
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I would be interested to hear what gods they think you believe in.
It wss not a matter of "what gods" Shaker believed or believes in.
It was much more about his attitude to the natural world and his place in and attitude to it.
There are many pagans who have no affiliation to any deity. The Gaia (Mother Earth) and all that that concept includes is their only 'deity'.
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I would be interested to hear what gods they think you believe in.
My understanding is that not all paganism is inherently or necessarily theistic.
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My understanding is that not all paganism is inherently or necessarily theistic.
see #92
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I would be interested to hear what gods they think you believe in.
Joining in also to say that paganism isn't necessarily theistic. You may remember The Stranger who posted here and who is both a shaman and an atheist. I'm a pantheist and don't have a personal god as such.
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I don't know about Rhiannon, biut I for one, am fed up with being asked this question, on this forum as well as other places, explaining what my pagan belief is and getting the piss right royally taken out of what I have said.
I hold my beliefs as strongly as do the Chrsitian fundamentalists of various stripes on here. They get irate, to varying degrees, if someone takes the piss out of what they believe but feel perfectly entitled, because, presumably, theirs is the one true faith/deity, to trash mine.
Sorry JK, but you are going to have to look elsewhere for an answer to your question.
All I will say is that, if Rhiannon answers, her viewpoint will be vastly different to mine for, although we both tread Pagan paths, they are entirely different from each other..
Someone said that many pagans would consider Shaker as one of them so they must be working by some criterion. I only asked because the discussion led that way.
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Someone said that many pagans would consider Shaker as one of them so they must be working by some criterion. I only asked because the discussion led that way.
I was the one who made that comment.
Many pagans work, like Rhiannon, with no deity.
They like Rhiannon work with the natural world around them. I am not one of them
It is people, like Rhiannon, who are non-theistic Pagans, who would have recognised a fellow-feeling by reading the post to which my comment was a reply. The post from Shaker was one that could easily have been made by a non-theistic Pagan.
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For many - not all - paganism is about relationship to the natural world. Heathenry isn't necessarily but most paths have some kind of nature spirituality at their heart. And paganism isn't a path of beliefs necessarily - certainly not for me - but a path of experiences.
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I was the one who made that comment.
Many pagans work, like Rhiannon, with no deity.
They like Rhiannon work with the natural world around them. I am not one of them
It is people, like Rhiannon, who are non-theistic Pagans, who would have recognised a fellow-feeling by reading the post to which my comment was a reply. The post from Shaker was one that could easily have been made by a non-theistic Pagan.
It's interesting to consider whether pantheism is a non-theist path. I don't identify as atheist but am I a theist? Good question.
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Joining in also to say that paganism isn't necessarily theistic. You may remember The Stranger who posted here and who is both a shaman and an atheist. I'm a pantheist and don't have a personal god as such.
Sounds to me from the posts above that paganism is all the rest that vaguely feel something spiritual (or a connection to nature) about life that aren't associated with some monotheistic religion or some such......? A rag bag of individuals.
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Sounds to me from the posts above that paganism is all the rest that vaguely feel something spiritual (or a connection to nature) about life that aren't associated with some monotheistic religion or some such......? A rag bag of individuals.
Well, 'rag bag' implies cast-offs or scraps, and pagans aren't that.
There are some paths that are clearly definable that you could say are religious in character. Others are driven by individual spiritual experiences, typically of the natural world. It's about taking responsibility for one's own spiritual wellbeing. Of course you could argue that all religion is about that, but many pagans follow a path without structure and have to find ways to make things work.
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It's interesting to consider whether pantheism is a non-theist path. I don't identify as atheist but am I a theist? Good question.
That's a good question.
I think pantheism came from Spinoza's philosophy and then retrospectively applied to the peoples beliefs in the past, but I may be wrong. But it kind of mushes God up with the stuff of the universe and leaves It 'faceless'.
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That's a good question.
I think pantheism came from Spinoza's philosophy and then retrospectively applied to the peoples beliefs in the past, but I may be wrong. But it kind of mushes God up with the stuff of the universe and leaves It 'faceless'.
I don't know - I can't say I've thought about it much except that when I look at the sky or earth or sea I think of it all as being god. I'm not sure why but I think it comes back to this concept if sacredness that was discussed elsewhere a while back. I see nature/ the universe as sacred so I see it as god... Except that doesn't really mean God as people usually think of deity.
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Well, 'rag bag' implies cast-offs or scraps, and pagans aren't that.
There are some paths that are clearly definable that you could say are religious in character. Others are driven by individual spiritual experiences, typically of the natural world. It's about taking responsibility for one's own spiritual wellbeing. Of course you could argue that all religion is about that, but many pagans follow a path without structure and have to find ways to make things work.
What I meant was that if it wasn't in a certain class or group then it was placed outside it with all the rest of similar ideas. So if a class was created for just apples and oranges then all the other fruits, a plethora of different types and sizes, would be outside that. Paganism is like a fruit salad....?
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I don't know - I can't say I've thought about it much except that when I look at the sky or earth or sea I think of it all as being god. I'm not sure why but I think it comes back to this concept if sacredness that was discussed elsewhere a while back. I see nature/ the universe as sacred so I see it as god... Except that doesn't really mean God as people usually think of deity.
I think some people would see you as being an old spirit, if you know what I mean, if you have that kind of connection with the fundamental aspect of the world.
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What I meant was that if it wasn't in a certain class or group then it was placed outside it with all the rest of similar ideas. So if a class was created for just apples and oranges then all the other fruits, a plethora of different types and sizes, would be outside that. Paganism is like a fruit salad....?
I see. It probably works best if you think of it as an umbrella term really. I *personally* think a sense of place is important, so for me paganism reflects my own landscape, seasons, myths, folklore, history and culture. But that's just me.
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Joining in also to say that paganism isn't necessarily theistic. You may remember The Stranger who posted here and who is both a shaman and an atheist. I'm a pantheist and don't have a personal god as such.
OIC! I had always thought that gods were involved in paganism. My apologies.
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I see. It probably works best if you think of it as an umbrella term really. I *personally* think a sense of place is important, so for me paganism reflects my own landscape, seasons, myths, folklore, history and culture. But that's just me.
"Umbrella Term"!
Oy Vey! Ain't that the truth?
JK, it has come to be that just about anyone who is not part of one of the mainstream religions, and I include in that Sikh, Hindu, Ba'hai, Buddhism, etc. and infinitum, or atheist is lumped together as Pagan. Goddess help us it now even covers those who identify as Jedi and Sith and the Flying Spaghetti God!
There is a saying about both witches and Pagans (I'm both) that if you ask one hundred pagans or one hundred witches the same question you are likely to get one hundred and fifty different answers and each is going to be as valid as the next. Paganism is THAT diverse.
To answer your question as to what is paganism I can answer only for myself. I have, as previously stated, detailed what I believe and in what I believe only to have the Fundamentalist Christian Mafia attack from all sides, including Finland and Canada as well as the UK telling me that what I believe is NOT Paganism.
What they mean, of course, is that what I believe is not what THEY believe Paganism is. Paganism as you can see from Rhiannon's posts, a very personal belief, it is one that Christians do not understand because, as you have seen from Rhiannon’s posts, it is a very personal path and not one that has a Book of Thoughtless Obedience to tell you exactly what to do and how to do it and who to do it to.
Paganism is a path that recognises the diversity of humanity, that recognises that, in religion, "one size fits all" is rubbish.
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OIC! I had always thought that gods were involved in paganism. My apologies.
Gods, Goddesses, both are parts of the paths of some Pagans.
My Coven has a God and a Goddess as its guardian deities. We will, on ocassion, call upon other deities, male and female, in times of need when a specific form of aid or assistance is needed or desired.
Like I said, no one size fits all - no deities fits Rhiannon, male and female deities fits Owlswing.
Are you confused yet?
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Gods, Goddesses, both are parts of the paths of some Pagans.
My Coven has a God and a Goddess as its guardian deities. We will, on ocassion, call upon other deities, male and female, in times of need when a specific form of aid or assistance is needed or desired.
Like I said, no one size fits all - no deities fits Rhiannon, male and female deities fits Owlswing.
Are you confused yet?
Nope! I now know that paganism doesn't necessarily involve gods. :)
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Nope! I now know that paganism doesn't necessarily involve gods. :)
That is the impoirtant word in this case - necessarily!
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That is the impoirtant word in this case - necessarily!
Good! Since there is zero proof that any 'gods' exist, the non-god pagans would seem to me to think more logically than their confederates.
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It's interesting to consider whether pantheism is a non-theist path. I don't identify as atheist but am I a theist? Good question.
Reminds me of a thread about pantheism that I've been meaning to start ...
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Reminds me of a thread about pantheism that I've been meaning to start ...
Should be interesting. :)
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I'll marshal my resources then (and try to decide where's the best place to put it) :)
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Good! Since there is zero proof that any 'gods' exist, the non-god pagans would seem to me to think more logically than their confederates.
For me it's not about logic but about experience. Do I really experience a personal deity? No I don't. Thought I did once but it doesn't feel like it was ever real.
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Good! Since there is zero proof that any 'gods' exist, the non-god pagans would seem to me to think more logically than their confederates.
Since when was logic a factor in any religion.
If you're going to start denigrating/dismissing my beliefs on the grounds of the non-existence of the deities, whose existence I have stated many times is a matter of faith/belief and beyond proof my participation in this conversation ends here.
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For me it's not about logic but about experience. Do I really experience a personal deity? No I don't. Thought I did once but it doesn't feel like it was ever real.
But it probably did at the time. My own experience was real, but due to my upbringing I misinterpreted the cause of it.
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Since when was logic a factor in any religion.
Surely you don't think that no believer has a logical argument for his/her belief?
If you're going to start denigrating/dismissing my beliefs on the grounds of the non-existence of the deities, whose existence I have stated many times is a matter of faith/belief and beyond proof my participation in this conversation ends here.
I don't denigrate your belief, and I fully understand the pressure to believe that some people feel. Furthermore, I laud your admission that it is beyond proof.
However the very fact that so many different "beyond proof" gods/divinities are believed in, supports the logical conclusion that they are nothing more than human inventions.
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Surely you don't think that no believer has a logical argument for his/her belief?
I don't denigrate your belief, and I fully understand the pressure to believe that some people feel. Furthermore, I laud your admission that it is beyond proof.
However the very fact that so many different "beyond proof" gods/divinities are believed in, supports the logical conclusion that they are nothing more than human inventions.
I don't think Matt's ever claimed that his deities are 'beyond proof'.
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I don't think Matt's ever claimed that his deities are 'beyond proof'.
I don't know who Matt is, but my response was to Owlswing who certainly did state it if you care to read the post completely. Or have I misunderstood again?
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I don't know who Matt is, but my response was to Owlswing who certainly did state it if you care to read the post completely. Or have I misunderstood again?
My fault entirely, Len. Skim reading and multitasking.
Matt and Owlswing are the same chap.
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My fault entirely, Len. Skim reading and multitasking.
Matt and Owlswing are the same chap.
I confess to getting confused when any name other than the forum one is used. Shaker is the only one I'm sure of, but there are so many Steve's around that even then it's not reliable!
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I don't think Matt's ever claimed that his deities are 'beyond proof'.
Quote - whose existence I have stated many times is a matter of faith/belief and beyond proof my participation in this conversation ends here. - Unquote
Sorry Rhi but I am of the opinion that the only 'proof' of the existence of deity in personal experience of deity. I have had my experiences, as you have stated that you have, which have given me the faith to believe that my deities exist.
I cannot 'prove' it any more than Hope or Sassy or Ad_O or Leonard James can 'prove' their beliefs.
LJ dismisses my belief as 'not logical' - nowhere have I claimed my belief to be logical. If I must accept that his beliefs are correct then, equally, he should accept mine as we neither of us can prove fact one!
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I don't know who Matt is, but my response was to Owlswing who certainly did state it if you care to read the post completely. Or have I misunderstood again?
When I first joined this forum I went under the name of 'Matthew Hopkins' - I am a practicing witch (if i practice long enough I might actually get good at it) and to post under the name of the Witchfinder General appealed to my sense of humour.
As time went on the joke lost its humour, for me anyway, and I reverted to the moniker I used on the Beeb after the Recondite Revenant got me barred (he hacked into my computer) of CMG_KCMG_GCMG. This was a Service joke aimed at senior (and usually senile) officers, it is a 'military only' Honour bestowed by Her Maj and stands for Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George, Knight Commander etc and Knight Grand Commander etc. Except that the lower ranks refer to it as Call Me God; Kindly Call Me God and God Calls Me God.
The humour of that palled after while and I went back to my original Beeb forum name of Owlswing.
Unlike certain other posters here who change their names more often than they change their underwear I have no intention of changing mine again until it is changed by force of circumstances to Deceased.
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LJ dismisses my belief as 'not logical' - nowhere have I claimed my belief to be logical. If I must accept that his beliefs are correct then, equally, he should accept mine as we neither of us can prove fact one!
Neither of us have to accept the other's belief ... I am simply claiming mine as more logical than yours.
Believing something exists without any proof opens the door to an infinite number of beliefs, no matter how idiotic they may be.
That is why I maintain it is more logical to believe that none of them exist, and that they are all products of the human imagination.
The fact that neither of us can prove what we believe is neither here nor there, but I am sure you can see that logic is on my side.
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This recondite revenant character sounds like your Moriarty :o
I was cyberstalked by him too back in the day. A seriously toxic and damaged individual.
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I was cyberstalked by him too back in the day. A seriously toxic and damaged individual.
That description is a serious understatement.
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I was nosey.
Looks like it was someone Jez vaguely knew called Richard.
If I read that correctly.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBCRenegades/search/messages?p=recondite+revenant&fr=uh3_groups_vert_gs
No, this blokes name was not Richard except when the surname Head was added.
And, whilst on the subject of this post, Jez and I are not on the best of terms as she dismissed me, in front of a huge crowd of Pagans and witches gathered at Aveburyfor a Summer Solstice ritual, as a "neolithic sexist relic" because, trying to acknowledge, on the Beeb R and E Forum, her expertise in a certain area of Paganism, I forget which, it was a very long time ago, I referred to her as the Lady Jezreel!
She has never spoken to me since.
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Dear Owlswing,
"neolithic sexist relic"
That sounds like a compliment to me ;) ;)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Owlswing,
That sounds like a compliment to me ;) ;)
Gonnagle.
Funny you should say that, Gonners.
Several persons present, both male and female, expressed similar sentiments at the time. ::)
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"Umbrella Term"!
Oy Vey! Ain't that the truth?
JK, it has come to be that just about anyone who is not part of one of the mainstream religions, and I include in that Sikh, Hindu, Ba'hai, Buddhism, etc. and infinitum, or atheist is lumped together as Pagan. Goddess help us it now even covers those who identify as Jedi and Sith and the Flying Spaghetti God!
There is a saying about both witches and Pagans (I'm both) that if you ask one hundred pagans or one hundred witches the same question you are likely to get one hundred and fifty different answers and each is going to be as valid as the next. Paganism is THAT diverse.
To answer your question as to what is paganism I can answer only for myself. I have, as previously stated, detailed what I believe and in what I believe only to have the Fundamentalist Christian Mafia attack from all sides, including Finland and Canada as well as the UK telling me that what I believe is NOT Paganism.
What they mean, of course, is that what I believe is not what THEY believe Paganism is. Paganism as you can see from Rhiannon's posts, a very personal belief, it is one that Christians do not understand because, as you have seen from Rhiannon’s posts, it is a very personal path and not one that has a Book of Thoughtless Obedience to tell you exactly what to do and how to do it and who to do it to.
Paganism is a path that recognises the diversity of humanity, that recognises that, in religion, "one size fits all" is rubbish.
If it is that nebulous and fluid how do you know that you are a pagan if there are no clear guidelines on what a pagan is?
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If it is that nebulous and fluid how do you know that you are a pagan if there are no clear guidelines on what a pagan is?
It is actually quite simple.
You look at the world and its religions, starting, in all probability, with that of your parents, and sometimes you get to point where you start to question that religion, its beliefs, its rules, its rituals (all church services are forms of ritual), and its attitudes to people, to other religions, to nature, to everything that it stands for.
Sometimes you find that there is nothing in the religion with which you fundamentally disagree - brilliant, happy, happy, days, carry on regardless.
If there is something that you find yourself at odds with, for instance - why are all the people running the ritual, the clergy, male and why are the wearing dresses?
Presumably the first people you will address this question to is your parents - if their answer satisfies you, move on to the next question. If all your questions are satisfactorily answered - again, happy days.
If not you move on to the Clergy and the library and try to find answers there.
If you do not find the answers you start looking at religions other than that in which you were raised. Some find what they want in the organised religions, others do not; of these last some will become atheist or anti-theist, some will investigate the non-organised religions - most of which are deemed pagan by the organised religions.
Paganism is the home of those who reject the philosophies of organised religion but equally reject the dogma of atheism. This is why modern paganism, neo-paganism is such a personal belief/religion. Some pagans do not call paganism a religion at all, mainly because of the connotation with all that they have rejected.
Yes, we are seen as the clowns of the religious world; fine, so be it, if you don’t like it reject it and us, but don't take the piss as, during our journey to paganism, we have, most of us, learned how to take the piss back and believe me the adherents of the organised religions and atheism do not like that and will always deny that they have ever taken the piss at all!
You don't believe me? Read these pages, but do it with an open mind.
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For me it was finding out that the things that speak to me also speak to other people, and a good many of those identify as pagan.
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It is actually quite simple.
You look at the world and its religions, starting, in all probability, with that of your parents, and sometimes you get to point where you start to question that religion, its beliefs, its rules, its rituals (all church services are forms of ritual), and its attitudes to people, to other religions, to nature, to everything that it stands for.
Sometimes you find that there is nothing in the religion with which you fundamentally disagree - brilliant, happy, happy, days, carry on regardless.
If there is something that you find yourself at odds with, for instance - why are all the people running the ritual, the clergy, male and why are the wearing dresses?
Presumably the first people you will address this question to is your parents - if their answer satisfies you, move on to the next question. If all your questions are satisfactorily answered - again, happy days.
If not you move on to the Clergy and the library and try to find answers there.
If you do not find the answers you start looking at religions other than that in which you were raised. Some find what they want in the organised religions, others do not; of these last some will become atheist or anti-theist, some will investigate the non-organised religions - most of which are deemed pagan by the organised religions.
Paganism is the home of those who reject the philosophies of organised religion but equally reject the dogma of atheism. This is why modern paganism, neo-paganism is such a personal belief/religion. Some pagans do not call paganism a religion at all, mainly because of the connotation with all that they have rejected.
I found it much simpler than that. Once I saw the contradictions in the religion I was brought up in, it became clear to me that nobody knows anything about what caused the universe, despite the colourful claims made by so many.
The mysterious 'something' that brought everything into existence remains a mystery, in spite of the best efforts of science so far.
Whatever it is (or was) is either unable to reveal itself, or chooses not to ... and is therefore a matter of indifference to us.
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I found it much simpler than that. Once I saw the contradictions in the religion I was brought up in, it became clear to me that nobody knows anything about what caused the universe, despite the colourful claims made by so many.
The mysterious 'something' that brought everything into existence remains a mystery, in spite of the best efforts of science so far.
Whatever it is (or was) is either unable to reveal itself, or chooses not to ... and is therefore a matter of indifference to us.
You are, of course, entitled to your interpretation of reality, as I am mine, it is just that we have decided to take different conclusions from the available evidence.
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If it is that nebulous and fluid how do you know that you are a pagan if there are no clear guidelines on what a pagan is?
Loth as I am to start getting into hard and fast definitions here but I would also say that there surely has to be some element of the natural world being a focal point of reverence. I don't know enough about Wicca to be able to say if this is the case for Owlswing but I'm pretty confident that Rhiannon would agree with this much.
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Loth as I am to start getting into hard and fast definitions here but I would also say that there surely has to be some element of the natural world being a focal point of reverance. I don't know enough about Wicca to be able to say if this is the case for Owlswing but I'm pretty confident that Rhiannon would agree with this much.
Wicca is not so much about the belief as the practice. How ritual is performed, what is done when, as set out by Gardner and Valiente. I am not a Gardnerian and therefore, according to the Gardnerians, I am not allowed to call myself a Wiccan , but I can call myself a wiccan.
Snobbery to the nth degree. Wiccans/Gardnerians and, to a lesser extent, Alexandrians consider themselves the aristocracy of neo-paganism.
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Wicca is not so much about the belief as the practice. How ritual is performed, what is done when, as set out by Gardner and Valiente. I am not a Gardnerian and therefore, according to the garnerians, I am not allowed to call myself a Wiccan , but I can call myself a wiccan.
Snobbery to the nth degree. Wiccans/Gardnerians and, to a lesser extent, Alexandrians consider themselves the aristocracy of neo-paganism.
Splitters ;D
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Loth as I am to start getting into hard and fast definitions here but I would also say that there surely has to be some element of the natural world being a focal point of reverence. I don't know enough about Wicca to be able to say if this is the case for Owlswing but I'm pretty confident that Rhiannon would agree with this much.
This is what it means to me, certainly; but then a path like Heathenry is very deity-focused. Some say that paganism means a path followed by indigenous people, but Wicca isn't that and neither is whatever woolly thing I do. So maybe it's either, or both.
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This is what it means to me, certainly; but then a path like Heathenry is very deity-focused. Some say that paganism means a path followed by indigenous people, but Wicca isn't that and neither is whatever woolly thing I do. So maybe it's either, or both.
True. The sort of books on paganism that I've read because I've been most interested in and atrracted to them have been the ones that treat nature as the focus of a pagan path, rather than deities and the ritualistic angle, so there's inevitably bias in that direction.
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Well, Doreen Valiente's most famous book is on natural magic. A lot of Wiccans do use nature in their rituals and paths. Druidry is very nature-focused because of the animistic aspect.
I couldn't find a path that hit the spot for me, or even a book, although plenty sparked off ideas. It's why for me it really is experiential and nothing else. I had to carve it out for myself pretty much.
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True. The sort of books on paganism that I've read because I've been most interested in and atrracted to them have been the ones that treat nature as the focus of a pagan path, rather than deities and the ritualistic angle, so there's inevitably bias in that direction.
It is possible to find a path that is 'nature', a path that is 'deities', or a path that is both.
Mine is both, but not exclusively so. The four quarters called to ritual are the elements and spirits of the most powerful forces in nature, Earth, Air, Fire and Water, all of which are necessary to life but are equally capable of destroying all life.
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It is actually quite simple.
You look at the world and its religions, starting, in all probability, with that of your parents, and sometimes you get to point where you start to question that religion, its beliefs, its rules, its rituals (all church services are forms of ritual), and its attitudes to people, to other religions, to nature, to everything that it stands for.
Sometimes you find that there is nothing in the religion with which you fundamentally disagree - brilliant, happy, happy, days, carry on regardless.
If there is something that you find yourself at odds with, for instance - why are all the people running the ritual, the clergy, male and why are the wearing dresses?
Presumably the first people you will address this question to is your parents - if their answer satisfies you, move on to the next question. If all your questions are satisfactorily answered - again, happy days.
If not you move on to the Clergy and the library and try to find answers there.
If you do not find the answers you start looking at religions other than that in which you were raised. Some find what they want in the organised religions, others do not; of these last some will become atheist or anti-theist, some will investigate the non-organised religions - most of which are deemed pagan by the organised religions.
Paganism is the home of those who reject the philosophies of organised religion but equally reject the dogma of atheism. This is why modern paganism, neo-paganism is such a personal belief/religion. Some pagans do not call paganism a religion at all, mainly because of the connotation with all that they have rejected.
Yes, we are seen as the clowns of the religious world; fine, so be it, if you don’t like it reject it and us, but don't take the piss as, during our journey to paganism, we have, most of us, learned how to take the piss back and believe me the adherents of the organised religions and atheism do not like that and will always deny that they have ever taken the piss at all!
You don't believe me? Read these pages, but do it with an open mind.
So that would include the New Agers and others, but when I mentioned this before I was shot down. So do the New Agers and the like count as pagans?
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Loth as I am to start getting into hard and fast definitions here but I would also say that there surely has to be some element of the natural world being a focal point of reverence. I don't know enough about Wicca to be able to say if this is the case for Owlswing but I'm pretty confident that Rhiannon would agree with this much.
Well yes, we are physical beings in a physical universe so it would follow that the answer to 'Whatever' would include this aspect. From my psychological perspective this shows itself in what is known as projection and peoples' connection with the world is of this form and is keenly felt by them, hence their reverence for it.
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So that would include the New Agers and others, but when I mentioned this before I was shot down. So do the New Agers and the like count as pagans?
Not necessarily - go to Stonehenge for the Summer Solstice and watch those who gather there. You will soon be able to separate the pagans from the New Agers.
The New Agers are the ones who turn up already pissed and stoned out of what is left of their brains; if the are not they are laden with the necessities to become so or more so and will continue becoming more and more stoned and drunk as dawn approaches.
The Druids will begin the Solstice ritiual to the accompaniment of New Agers screaming abuse at all and sundry, vomiting everywhere and over anyone who doesn't move out of the way fast enough and pissing on the stones destrotying a 4,500+ year old monument with uric acid.
And now they are complaining bitterly that National Heritage, who are reponsible for the upkeep of the moinument, want all drugs and alcohol banned from this years celebrations. The New Agers will of course, claim that their human rights are being abused some wanker lawyer/judge will say that they have to be allowed their noxious substances and alcohol and more damage will be done to a national monument in two days than has been done in thousands of years!
So NO! New Agers are NOT pagans by any definition that I or any pagan I know would recognise.
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Not necessarily - go to Stonehenge for the Summer Solstice and watch those who gather there. You will soon be able to separate the pagans from the New Agers.
The New Agers are the ones who turn up already pissed and stoned out of what is left of their brains; if the are not they are laden with the necessities to become so or more so and will continue becoming more and more stoned and drunk as dawn approaches.
The Druids will begin the Solstice ritiual to the accompaniment of New Agers screaming abuse at all and sundry, vomiting everywhere and over anyone who doesn't move out of the way fast enough and pissing on the stones destrotying a 4,500+ year old monument with uric acid.
And now they are complaining bitterly that National Heritage, who are reponsible for the upkeep of the moinument, want all drugs and alcohol banned from this years celebrations. The New Agers will of course, claim that their human rights are being abused some wanker lawyer/judge will say that they have to be allowed their noxious substances and alcohol and more damage will be done to a national monument in two days than has been done in thousands of years!
So NO! New Agers are NOT pagans by any definition that I or any pagan I know would recognise.
But your reductive definition of #135 would include them regardless of what you say above. You may not like them but they are, by your reasoning of #135, pagan.
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But your reductive definition of #135 would include them regardless of what you say above. You may not like them but they are, by your reasoning of #135, pagan.
No, because apart from, as Rhi pointed out, the Christian New Agers, most have no religious affiliation whatsoever, not to deities, not nature, well unless by nature you mean weed and the makings of alcohol. And flower power.
But I know you are not going to let this go, so you just believe what you want. Everybody else does.
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No, because apart from, as Rhi pointed out, the Christian New Agers, most have no religious affiliation whatsoever, not to deities, not nature, well unless by nature you mean weed and the makings of alcohol. And flower power.
But I know you are not going to let this go, so you just believe what you want. Everybody else does.
There's more to the New Agers than getting high which they don't do. They are into crystals and stuff, and reiki (not sure how it is spelt) and psychic stuff...
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Alright. Not only misinterpreted their origin but also their meaning. The pagans knew they pointed to something but ultimately the were ignorant of their true meaning. Their origin is God and they also point to God. Using Christmas as an example again, midwinter and the subsequent increasing of the sun points to the uncreated light, Christ. This is to understand it correctly. The goes for the Resurrection and the time of year we celebrate that. These all point to the one true God, to Christ himself.
This is interesting and unfortunate. Interesting as a way of understanding the seasons from a Christian perspective, unfortunate that you insist that it is the only valid perspective available.
More 'true for you' nonsense spoiling another discussion
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It's interesting to note the link between the fact that churches face east and the element of sun worship in that.
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It's interesting to note the link between the fact that churches face east and the element of sun worship in that.
...and the halos, and all the imagery referring to light. "The sun is good. The sun is warm and brings forth life" basically underpins a shed load of our religious thinking.
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Driving home after school in daylight - bliss.
The mornings will soon catch up. And as it's easter it doesn't much matter when I get up over the next couple of days.
Come the end of summer I'll be welcoming the darker evenings again and the promise of the cold bleakness of winter. But for now, the fresh light of Spring is more than welcome.
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Driving home after school in daylight - bliss.
The mornings will soon catch up. And as it's easter it doesn't much matter when I get up over the next couple of days.
Come the end of summer I'll be welcoming the darker evenings again and the promise of the cold bleakness of winter. But for now, the fresh light of Spring is more than welcome.
Yes, I've already got a load of seedlings potted up to plant out in a couple of weeks time, and more stuff to be sown. It's wonderful to see everything moving again. (but not the weeds!) :)
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Yes, round here cowslips shoot up all over the place. Lovely to spot them, and the May blossom budding.
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Come the end of summer I'll be welcoming the darker evenings again and the promise of the cold bleakness of winter.
Ah yes, that's a certain time of year that I look forward every year. I've noticed for many a year now that there's always one particular day - not a specific date but one day, whenever it may fall; it's always some time in autumn - when there's a distinct nip in the air, not mere coolness but actual cold, and what Emily Dickinson called "a certain slant of light" around dusk as the nights start to draw in and you can see and feel and know winter to be on the way again. I wait for it and mark it every year.
Love it. A long way off yet, unfortunately, but there we go.
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I like the autumn too Shaker.
Unlike many on here, I enjoy dark mornings and don't particularly like light evenings. I feel more cosy in the dark.
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Ah yes, that's a certain time of year that I look forward every year. I've noticed for many a year now that there's always one particular day - not a specific date but one day, whenever it may fall; it's always some time in autumn - when there's a distinct nip in the air, not mere coolness but actual cold, and what Emily Dickinson called "a certain slant of light" around dusk as the nights start to draw in and you can see and feel and know winter to be on the way again. I wait for it and mark it every year.
Love it. A long way off yet, unfortunately, but there we go.
I like the turn of the year at both ends. In spring there is a certain point, a day where the sun will shine through new green leaves and yet it isn't warm; instead it is as fresh as a bucket of water pouring over you. And that, for me, means Spring has fully arrived.
The sad thing is though that it doesn't last. All too soon the spring flowers will give way to summer's riot which is finished by July and replaced by dust and heat that I long to end, although stealing out under the stars on a warm night has its attractions. The beautiful thing about Autumn is that it heralds a long season of darkness, drama and bleak, bleak landscape; here we are at Easter and the trees still aren't green, we are still looking at greyness, still lighting the woodburner.
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All too soon the spring flowers will give way to summer's riot which is finished by July and replaced by dust and heat that I long to end, although stealing out under the stars on a warm night has its attractions.
Very much so. Hot summers in England are hateful, not just for being hot - I've been to arid desert countries and felt more comfortable - but because they're both hot and humid, and I happen to live in a central part of the realm which often catches the worst of the heat and humidity. The only saving grace is that the end of such days is the best thing about them - light until late and wonderful for sitting on a comfy reclining chair out of doors with a book and a bottle of something nice and a lamp until it gets too dark to read and then you can watch the bats doing their Battle of Britain re-enactment over the garden and the stars beyond. I've never quite slept out in the garden on such nights yet, but have been very close to it.
Very much thinking that all this belongs on the 'Seasons' thread over on the Pagan sub-forum :)
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We get bats here too. I once went bat watching in a forest one night, organised by the NT; whilst it was fun falling over tree roots and swearing, picking up one bat on the bat detector was somewhat of an anti-climax. I did ponder the logistics of offering bat expeditions in my own back garden, complete with cheese and wine and decent toilets.
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We get bats here too. I once went bat watching in a forest one night, organised by the NT; whilst it was fun falling over tree roots and swearing, picking up one bat on the bat detector was somewhat of an anti-climax.
I was going to get a bat detector myself; but a small expensive box that sounds like a dolphin was a budget-wrecker too far.
I did ponder the logistics of offering bat expeditions in my own back garden, complete with cheese and wine and decent toilets.
Ker-chinggggg!