Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on October 02, 2015, 04:07:04 PM
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Hi everyone,
Here is a study about mass killings being contagious.
http://us.cnn.com/2015/07/02/health/contagious-mass-killings-study/index.html
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Mass killings and school shootings spread "contagiously," a study found, where one killing or shooting increases the chances that others will occur within about two weeks.
The study, published in July the journal PLOS ONE, found evidence that school shootings and mass killings -- defined as four or more deaths -- spread "contagiously," and 20% to 30% of such killings appear to be the result of "infection." The contagion period lasts about 13 days, researchers found.
The spread they found was not dependent on location, leading researchers to believe that national media coverage of a mass shooting might play a role. On average, mass shootings occur about once every two weeks in the United States and school shootings happen about once a month, the study said.
"What we believe may be happening is national news media attention is like a 'vector' that reaches people who are vulnerable," said Sherry Towers,
Once "infected" with knowledge of a shooting from national media coverage, data shows that a person is more likely to commit a similar crime.
"When at least three people are shot, but less than four people are killed, the media reports tended be local," Towers said. These shootings that received local news coverage, but no national news coverage, did not have the same contagious effect, according to Towers.
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Cheers.
Sriram
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Mass killings in the US will continue until they change their crazy gun laws!
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Apparently he was an antitheist.
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Apparently he was an antitheist.
Source?
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Apparently he was an antitheist.
Source?
BBC and sky news.
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Apparently he was an antitheist.
Source?
BBC and sky news.
Links, please.
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Apparently he was an antitheist.
No I think he was anti-christian, or so it would appear.
But also apparently no atheist, as he is reported as saying: 'because you're a Christian you're going to see God in just about one second' - that makes no sense as a comment if you don't believe god exists. Also born out by his on-line profile where he described himself as spiritual but not religious, again something an atheist is likely to describe themselves as.
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I have just been listening to contributions from past and present BBC American correspondents. Jon Sopel says that official statistics for the period 2007-2014 show that guns were responsible for the deaths of 225,386 people; terrorism for "a handful".
So, guns are responsible for the deaths of about 30,000 people each year.
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While I think the statement guns don't kill people, people do is fairly vacuous, treating guns and terrorism as if they are similar things and talking about guns being responsible for killings is very silly.
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While I think the statement guns don't kill people, people do is fairly vacuous, treating guns and terrorism as if they are similar things and talking about guns being responsible for killings is very silly.
I think the point is to compare the relative threat of general gun ownership with the relative threat from terrorists and then look at the response of the US government to each one. We find that given the harm caused by each, the responses are disproportionate.
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A terrorist can use a gun
The idea of comparing a motivation with a way of killing is a category error
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A terrorist can use a gun
The idea of comparing a motivation with a way of killing is a category error
The category is "threats to the life and limb of American citizens". No category error.
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Huge category error since it says suicide is equivalent to cars
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Huge category error since it says suicide is equivalent to cars
Nope. There are threats to people's lives and there are ways of mitigating the threats. General gun ownership in the USA kills people. Terrorists kill people. Even if you only count the deaths from accidental discharges of firearms, there's still a massive disproportionally in the responses.
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Which makes no difference to the category error. How us a motivation like a way of killing!
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Which makes no difference to the category error.
This imaginary category error of yours is bullshit.
Try engaging with the point instead of dismissing it.
How us a motivation like a way of killing!
I wasn't talking about motivation, I was talking about two different causes of death: terrorism and accidental discharges of firearms.
Engage with the point.
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Which makes no difference to the category error.
This imaginary category error of yours is bullshit.
Try engaging with the point instead of dismissing it.
How us a motivation like a way of killing!
I wasn't talking about motivation, I was talking about two different causes of death: terrorism and accidental discharges of firearms.
Engage with the point.
I am. Causes of death such as comparing terrorism and guns would be witless. It's like saying knifes and murder are the same
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hmm, anyway the point of the OP was that these apparently random mass killings tend to inspire further acts, in clusters. Terrorism probably does the same.
I think this is basically because people are good at copying and adapting what they see other people doing. This is a key element in the rise of civilisation, and will be in its demise.
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https://publicintelligence.net/mass-shootings-mental-illness/
The Oregon shooters mother, unfit and should go to prison. Neglected to get her son mental help and bragged about all the guns he was accumulating.
To all those that read his threats on the internet and didn't bother to notify authorities, how do you feel about your inaction now? About 80% of these killers are mentally sick and people opted to ignore or look the other way, instead of getting them treated and get them on reality pills.
How the mentally ill are treated or not is where the solution is to be found. It would be interesting if somebody did a study comparing a high gun ownership nation, with very low to nill mass shootings, to the USA. How does Switzerland tackle mental health compared to the USA. Not a lot of mass shootings in gun loving Switzerland.
I have lost the last little thread of respect for Obama. Right after the shootings, before the victims were named and buried, he jumped in front of the cameras and used their slaughter to further his political agenda. That's no president, that is an opportunist and well, we know he was just the same way in his youth. Interesting that he never mentions the high gun crime in his home city of Chicago. Nope, complete silence about the daily murders. Chicago has tough gun laws and some of them were drafted by Obama. His tough gun laws have failed to stop or slow down shootings in his city. They are on the increase which is why the democrats keep silent about the failure of tough gun laws in Chicago.
You can have your little rants at the USA and it's love of guns every time an ignored mental case goes on a shooting spree but that doesn't do a bit of good when the problem is how the USA deals with mental heath.
Just read up on all the info on this latest killer. I have a feeling that if he was in Switzerland, he would have been noticed and treated before he went this far.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-chicago-gun-violence-20140823-story.html
http://www.commdiginews.com/politics-2/chicago-gun-violence-eclipses-ucsb-shooting-media-silent-18894/
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I am.
No you are not, you are trying to shut the debate down with your spurious "category error".
Causes of death such as comparing terrorism and guns would be witless.
Poisoning the well now. We should call you the new Vlad.
It's like saying knifes and murder are the same
Wrong. Terrorists are not murder, but they do cause people to die. US gun ownership is not murder but it does cause people to die.
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Johnny Canoe
It shames me that I am obliged to share the same planet as you.
I have lost the last little thread of respect for Obama. Right after the shootings, before the victims were named and buried, he jumped in front of the cameras and used their slaughter to further his political agenda.
President Obama faced America, and with courage, humanity and compassion sought an end to the insanity which cripples America.
He has no political agenda to further. His term of office ends next year, there is nowhere further that he can go. But if he can reduce the slaughter amounting to 30,000 of his countrymen each year because of their infatuation with firearms he will have done more than almost any of his predecessors.
You, on the other hand, condone the slaughter.
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Let's be clear Harrow, this president has brought nothing forward. What he did do in Chicago has failed as gun killings are rising. He uses these killings to for his own politics, that's it. He has refused to ever mention the out of control gun killings in his own home city. Tell me why is that Harrow? He can't even wait for the victims to be named and buried before he makes this tragedy political. Shame on him and shame on you for going along with his self serving agenda. An agenda that has made Chicago with his gun laws, a complete and total FAILURE Harrow!! And shame on you for writing that I approve of that slaughter. What makes you blatantly lie about me that way? Because I call out the president's motives and tactics and failed laws in his own city, you believe that I approve of that slaughter? You could be a real politician, lawyer or car salesman there Mr. Harrow, because you so full of your own crap.
Rose,
I never said that all mentally disturbed people are potential mass killers. The fact is 80% of these killers in the USA have been mentally ill and anybody that ignores this fact is hiding their head in the sand. You tell me why the gun loving Swiss don't have these killing sprees and the USA does. I would suggest you look at the way their societies work and the way mental health is prioritized by the governments and the peoples themselves. Tell me why this mentally ill fellow was allowed to go without treatment? Why were his parents so negligent, and all that knew him. Tell me what is it with the society in the USA that people read his threats on the internet and nobody notified authorities?
I have always been clear that the USA needs more gun control but I will not ignore the mental health issue of it. And Harrow, as your blessed Obama was furthering his agenda so very quickly after the shootings, guess what? He brought up the link to MENTAL HEALTH.
Just a couple weeks ago a young man murdered his friend and his friend's little girl in a small town south of me. The man attempted suicide latter in jail and just a few days ago had come out of his coma. They don't know the extent of his brain damage yet. You tell me Rose that that murderer has no mental issues that were a factor in his killings.
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http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/040213-650124-chicago-dead-last-in-federal-gun-prosecutions.htm
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Well Rose I did mention his negligent parents. Cut the sexist accusation crap, this is serious ok? His mom, whom he shared a one bedroom apartment with, had been BRAGGING about all the guns her mentally sick son had collected.
You still want to ignore the fact that mental illness is a key factor in these killings. That's a mistake Rose, even that idiot president realizes the role mental health has in this. And I put it to you that there is a big difference between European society and the American's. It boils down to how mental health is looked after and prioritized. Tell me Rose, how can an American read the killers threats and not bother to notify police? When the killer warned everybody in the Northwest not to go to school that day, NOBODY that read the threats called the police. How is that Rose? It has nothing to do with your childish reference to the OK corral, this is serious. If I came across threats, you better believe I would be the first to call the authorities. Not so in the USA, they would rather ignore or look the other way than getting involved.
For real Rose, I just betcha gun loving Switzerland has mental health at a much higher priority than the USA.
Don't ignore the mental health issue to these killing sprees, 80% of these killers had known mental illness. That's percentage is just to high to pretend outrage at my mentioning that serious and sobering fact. Oh and I just heard that the killer wasn't shot by the police. He committed suicide and wanted to take Christians down with him. Does that not sound mentally sick?
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A terrorist can use a gun
The idea of comparing a motivation with a way of killing is a category error
Politicians have policies that deal with issues, gun control and terrorism both can be categorised as issues.
There is no category error.
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Johnny Canoe
It shames me that I am obliged to share the same planet as you.
I have lost the last little thread of respect for Obama. Right after the shootings, before the victims were named and buried, he jumped in front of the cameras and used their slaughter to further his political agenda.
President Obama faced America, and with courage, humanity and compassion sought an end to the insanity which cripples America.
He has no political agenda to further. His term of office ends next year, there is nowhere further that he can go. But if he can reduce the slaughter amounting to 30,000 of his countrymen each year because of their infatuation with firearms he will have done more than almost any of his predecessors.
You, on the other hand, condone the slaughter.
Obama is a good man and President. I just hope one of the Republican right-wing, gun toting, religious nutters doesn't win the presidential election next year. :o If that happens the whole world will be in danger, imo!
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Rose, we do have the same freedom of speech as in the States; obviously things can't be said in print media or in the workplace but what people say in pubs and online especially is very different.
My feeling is that because we are such a small place geographically we've long ago learned that tolerance and getting along helps society to function far better than fracturing off from each other. In the States there are some places that are still geographically isolated and that are stuck in the 50s or beyond. They really haven't kept up with the modern world at all. And because of the net, that mindset is now able to reach beyond those closed communities and affect others.
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UK free speech.
http://findlaw.co.uk/law/government/constitutional_law/fundamental_rights/500150.html
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I'm not convinced its so different. Whatever, the States needs to look at how to bring some of its more, erm, traditional communities into the 21st century.
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I think that there are limits to free speech in the USA. In 1919, a Supreme Court justice, Oliver Wendell Holmes famously said:
The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.
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I think that there are limits to free speech in the USA. In 1919, a Supreme Court justice, Oliver Wendell Holmes famously said:
The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU
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He can't even wait for the victims to be named and buried before he makes this tragedy political. Shame on him and shame on you for going along with his self serving agenda.
People are dying from being shot every day in the USA. And all you want to do is shut down the conversation about stopping it by crying "political". Shame on you.
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Saying that mass killings are contagious, suggests that the root cause behind many of the mass killings that have occurred - mental ill-health - is contagious. Does anyone seriously believe that?
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Saying that mass killings are contagious, suggests that the root cause behind many of the mass killings that have occurred - mental ill-health - is contagious. Does anyone seriously believe that?
But some of people suffering from a personality defect will latch onto the mass killing agenda, as it will hit the headlines.
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Where's the outrage over the millions of unborn babies that are killed every year? Now that's mass killing.
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Where's the outrage over the millions of unborn babies that are killed every year?
News to me.
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Where's the outrage over the millions of unborn babies that are killed every year? Now that's mass killing.
Most abortions take place in the first few weeks well before a foetus is viable. Far better to abort an unwanted pregnancy than give birth to a child who is not welcome in a family. If only that poor child Baby Peter had been aborted he would have been spared a lot of pain.
There are some crazy loons who say that the deity sends babies, if that is the case why doesn't it send them to people who want them, not those that don't?
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Where's the outrage over the millions of unborn babies that are killed every year? Now that's mass killing.
Most abortions take place in the first few weeks well before a foetus is viable. Far better to abort an unwanted pregnancy than give birth to a child who is not welcome in a family. If only that poor child Baby Peter had been aborted he would have been spared a lot of pain.
There are some crazy loons who say that the deity sends babies, if that is the case why doesn't it send them to people who want them, not those that don't?
Then of course there are the foetuses that get aborted naturally or miscarried.
There are probably more of those than are realised.
I miscarried my second pregnancy at thirteen weeks gestation.
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Where's the outrage over the millions of unborn babies that are killed every year? Now that's mass killing.
So we should imprison the women who have abortions. That would be justice, wouldn't it?
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I suggest, if people want to discuss the rights and wrongs of abortion, we start another thread to avoid derailing this one, which is about born people shooting other born people.
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Gun sales are up after the shooting, so expect more of the same.
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Where's the outrage over the millions of unborn babies that are killed every year? Now that's mass killing.
Most abortions take place in the first few weeks well before a foetus is viable. Far better to abort an unwanted pregnancy than give birth to a child who is not welcome in a family. If only that poor child Baby Peter had been aborted he would have been spared a lot of pain.
There are some crazy loons who say that the deity sends babies, if that is the case why doesn't it send them to people who want them, not those that don't?
Then of course there are the foetuses that get aborted naturally or miscarried.
There are probably more of those than are realised.
Lots of people get run over by cars too.
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They do indeed. And?
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Lots of people get run over by cars too.
It's a good time of the year for red herrings, 2Corrie.
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They do indeed. And?
I wonder how many people get run over for absolutely no fault of their own?
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They do indeed. And?
I wonder how many people get run over for absolutely no fault of their own?
Lots, I'd imagine.
Still at a loss as to the relevance. Nobody seems equipped to say.
So it goes ???
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Lots, I'd imagine.
I suspect that it isn't that large a proportion. Many pedestrians get run down because they try to cross the road at inappropriate places.
Still at a loss as to the relevance. Nobody seems equipped to say.
So it goes ???
I suspect that 2C was trying to contrast the fact that no child who is aborted - be that naturally or otherwise - is aborted because of something they have done; they are 100% blameless. Against this is the fact that the majority of pedestrian deaths will have at least some degree of blame attached to the pedestrian (see point above)
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I don't give two shiny ones what you suspect; what do you or don't you know?
I don't know of any child who is aborted. Interested to see your evidence of same (which I already know won't be forthcoming).
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I don't give two shiny ones what you suspect; what do you or don't you know?
I don't know of any child who is aborted. Interested to see your evidence of same (which I already know won't be forthcoming).
Linguistically, a child is any human being under a given age (often depending on the culture). In many cultures, ours included, that definition can be applied to any human being from the time of conception. I appreciate that there are those who prefer the biological terms foetus and embryo - terms that are often used euphemistically - or the biological explanation that a child is an entity than can exist separate to its mother (by which definition we ought probably to refer to human beings up to 2, perhaps even 5, as something other than a child)
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Linguistically, a child is any human being under a given age (often depending on the culture). In many cultures, ours included, that definition can be applied to any human being from the time of conception.
It's remarkable how often Christians' arguments descend to dictionary definition wars.
Surely the point is not whether a foetus that may not even have a central nervous system yet can be defined as a child under some circumstances, but whether it is an autonomous human being with a conscious.
Anyway, what bout the guns.
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Still at a loss as to the relevance. Nobody seems equipped to say.
Cars are large lumps of metal, that, in the hands of an idiot, can kill lots of people. In the USA, they have recognised this and so people who want to drive cars have to pass a test and be licensed. If they demonstrate serious incompetence when in control of a car, they can lose their licence. Furthermore, it is necessary to carry insurance if you want to drive your car on a public road.
It is insane that similar regulations are not in force for the possession and carrying of firearms.
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...but whether it is an autonomous human being with a conscious.
By this argument, we oughtn't to be referring to someone as a child until they are about 10!! assuming that we regard them as having a conscious at the point that they can be deemed to be responsible for their actions.
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...but whether it is an autonomous human being with a conscious.
By this argument, we oughtn't to be referring to someone as a child until they are about 10!! assuming that we regard them as having a conscious at the point that they can be deemed to be responsible for their actions.
You are missing the point. It's not about labels.
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You are missing the point. It's not about labels.
And you are making that same mistake - labelling human beings dependent on their age/posssession of a conscience/autonomity
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You are missing the point. It's not about labels.
And you are making that same mistake - labelling human beings dependent on their age/posssession of a conscience/autonomity
Nope.
I'm talking about properties of humans. You are talking about labels.
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In case you missed the subtlety the point I was making was that comparing miscarriages to abortion is like comparing car accidents to shootings.
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In case you missed the subtlety the point I was making was that comparing miscarriages to abortion is like comparing car accidents to shootings.
What is your point in the context of this latest mass shooting?