Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: 2Corrie on October 11, 2015, 09:12:49 PM
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What would the Bereans have made of these scriptures?
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.7You love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Psalm 45:6-7, compare with:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14
The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3 (who did John the baptist prepare the way for?)
I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14And he shall be as a sanctuary; but a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a trap and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isaiah 8:13-14. Who is this rock of offense according to the apostle Peter?
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him (from Ps 2)
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I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!
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What would the Bereans have made of these scriptures?
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.7You love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Psalm 45:6-7, compare with:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14
The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3 (who did John the baptist prepare the way for?)
I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14And he shall be as a sanctuary; but a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a trap and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isaiah 8:13-14. Who is this rock of offense according to the apostle Peter?
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him (from Ps 2)
Good scriptures 2 Corrie a very good post for Christians a blessing for others a prophecy of doom.
~TW~
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;D ;D ;D
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MMM Can't see anything there about Jesus turning 'His' people into Christians either.
Yes, He was rejected by the far greater majority of Jews as not fulfilling ALL the criteria for The Messiah who was to deliver them from the Romans ??!?!!?
Nick
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Using the historical method Jesus didn't say he was god, so not sure how the OT fits.
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I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!
And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah, Floo?
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MMM Can't see anything there about Jesus turning 'His' people into Christians either.
Well, the term 'Christian' was only given to the followers of Christ by the people of Antioch in the mid-40s AD, as a form of abuse, Nick - so obviously even the early Church wouldn't have used the term.
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What would the Bereans have made of these scriptures?
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6
His name shall called Son of God (The mighty God) because he not the Son of any God but the one true God. And we know God spoke through him. Deuteronomy 18:18 God was actually there with Christ so yes Where Christ was God was with him. He is the Prince of Peace and the Everlasting Father was with him.
So we Know that Thomas saying " My Lord and My God was him acknowledging God being with Christ there and then.
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.7You love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Psalm 45:6-7, compare with:
King James Bible
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
As you can see Christ anointed by God.
It is comfirmed in Acts 10:38
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14
For the Kingdom of God is within you.
It cannot be destroyed because it is a Spiritual Kingdom. That is built on truth and Spirit.
The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3 (who did John the baptist prepare the way for?)
Deuteronomy 18:18. They prepared the way for the Messiah whom God would be with and speak through. So they prepared the way for CHRIST and they knew God would be with Christ as he was with Moses speaking directly to them through his words.
I baptise with water. But he who comes after me is greater than I, and will baptise with the Holy Spirit.
I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son so whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have eternal life.
God sent his son to die and without God saving us that way then we would have no saviour at all.
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14And he shall be as a sanctuary; but a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a trap and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isaiah 8:13-14. Who is this rock of offense according to the apostle Peter?
They builders rejected the most important stone.
Through the Jews came the PROMISE of the Messiah.
King James Bible
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him (from Ps 2)
Summing up the words of Christ best spell it out...
John 17King James Version (KJV)
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
As you can see both Christ and God together during his ministry. Eternal life is know the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ who the ONLY TRUE GOD, sent.
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Using the historical method Jesus didn't say he was god, so not sure how the OT fits.
But using the literary method - which is of course the equivalent to the OT - he is recorded as having done so.
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Rose could you provide the details please,==One of the criteria for being "the Messiah" was that he ushered in a period of world peace.
where do you get this from.
~TW~
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What would the Bereans have made of these scriptures?
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.7You love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Psalm 45:6-7, compare with:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14
The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3 (who did John the baptist prepare the way for?)
I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14And he shall be as a sanctuary; but a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a trap and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isaiah 8:13-14. Who is this rock of offense according to the apostle Peter?
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him (from Ps 2)
I see that the weather report says there's another wet weekend coming up.
ippy
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Rose could you provide the details please,==One of the criteria for being "the Messiah" was that he ushered in a period of world peace.
where do you get this from.
~TW~
It is one of Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith. See wikipedia article on Messiah
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Rose could you provide the details please,==One of the criteria for being "the Messiah" was that he ushered in a period of world peace.
where do you get this from.
~TW~
It is one of Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith. See wikipedia article on Messiah
Hope I am not interested in what Maimonide says or wikipedia But I do take notice of what my Lord has to say
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
~TW~
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;D ;D ;D
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TW
Sounds a right ....... Please insert offensive detail as appropriate !!!
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TW
Sounds a right ....... Please insert offensive detail as appropriate !!!
It is better to laugh at such garbage than use naughty words, imo.
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Rose if you are going to start post/thread,please pick a subject you know something about.
~TW~
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Rose if you are going to start post/thread,please pick a subject you know something about.
~TW~
I think what you mean is "agree with me all the time and there will be no problem".
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Rose if you are going to start post/thread,please pick a subject you know something about.
~TW~
Take your own advice, you just make it up as you go along! ;D ;D ;D
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Rose if you are going to start post/thread,please pick a subject you know something about.
~TW~
Re posted for TW
I do know something about it, because I went and found out what the Jews expected of a Messiah.
I'm not going to accept Christian theology uncritically unlike many Christians.
Nor am I going to be intimidated by Christians who believe in their own theology more than anything else and who would like to silence me.
Probably because they haven't been taught how to answer real questions.
There is no reason why I should accept anyone's theology.
Not all Christians accept all of each other's theology anyway.
If you expect me to couch my questions safely within your own theology then you are going to be out of luck.
so rose then you must accept your facts ;D are in a muddle you have told a third temple is required and you do not know why,you have told us the jews need to return to Israel and you do not know why.
And in the last book of the bible which is a blessing for those that understand it {like me}------ 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Also one group of jews are are called a synagogue of Satan-----! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Strange these people were Jews but Jesus says they are not,did you ask your Jewish friends why then also we read ,all Israel is not Israel.------It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.Romans 9:6.
So Rose a third temple !no :) do a bit more study or should I say start again.
~TW~
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Using the historical method Jesus didn't say he was god, so not sure how the OT fits.
But using the literary method - which is of course the equivalent to the OT - he is recorded as having done so.
I don't know what that method is, please expand.
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
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MMM Can't see anything there about Jesus turning 'His' people into Christians either.
Yes, He was rejected by the far greater majority of Jews as not fulfilling ALL the criteria for The Messiah who was to deliver them from the Romans ??!?!!?
Nick
One of the criteria for being "the Messiah" was that he ushered in a period of world peace.
No one has managed that one yet, although many have claimed to be.
Xxxxxxxxx
The Messiah was supposed to
Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple
Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel
Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."
Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one: "G-d will be King over all the world—on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One"
If a candidate fails one he fails them all.
We are certainly seeing some like Isaiah 43 coming to fruition. Then considering that a thousand years are like a day or a watch in the night in the Lord's eyes why not give Him a few more minutes to completely fulfil the others?
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You cannot be sure you have any of the words uttered by Jesus.
You also have what men wrote down as hearsay.
It could all be made up fantasy and you have no way to rule this out.
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You cannot be sure you have any of the words uttered by Jesus.
You also have what men wrote down as hearsay.
It could all be made up fantasy and you have no way to rule this out.
Make that your prayer.
~TW~
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You have no idea if Jesus said any of what is attributed to him in the gospels.
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;D
;D ;D ;D
I'm begining to think there might be something in this devil idea, there seems to be something very much like it stalking around this forum.
ippy
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You have no idea if Jesus said any of what is attributed to him in the gospels.
Make that your prayer.
~TW~
Modify message
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You cannot be sure you have any of the words uttered by Jesus.
You also have what men wrote down as hearsay.
It could all be made up fantasy and you have no way to rule this out.
Make that your prayer.
~TW~
Don't let BR rattle you Tw__even some very highly intelligent people follow your religion nonsense, not just you.
ippy
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You cannot be sure you have any of the words uttered by Jesus.
You also have what men wrote down as hearsay.
It could all be made up fantasy and you have no way to rule this out.
Make that your prayer.
~TW~
I never pray for obvious reasons.
Do you accept that you too only have words written by others that CLAIM they are the words of Jesus?
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You cannot be sure you have any of the words uttered by Jesus.
You also have what men wrote down as hearsay.
It could all be made up fantasy and you have no way to rule this out.
Make that your prayer.
~TW~
I never pray for obvious reasons.
Do you accept that you too only have words written by others that CLAIM they are the words of Jesus?
Absolutely yes, I am not like you,heaven forbid plus I also go on personnel experience for example the new birth.And much more.
~TW~
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You cannot be sure you have any of the words uttered by Jesus.
You also have what men wrote down as hearsay.
It could all be made up fantasy and you have no way to rule this out.
Make that your prayer.
~TW~
I never pray for obvious reasons.
Do you accept that you too only have words written by others that CLAIM they are the words of Jesus?
Absolutely yes, I am not like you,heaven forbid plus I also go on personnel experience for example the new birth.And much more.
~TW~
You only go on what you want to be true!
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You cannot be sure you have any of the words uttered by Jesus.
You also have what men wrote down as hearsay.
It could all be made up fantasy and you have no way to rule this out.
Make that your prayer.
~TW~
I never pray for obvious reasons.
Do you accept that you too only have words written by others that CLAIM they are the words of Jesus?
Absolutely yes, I am not like you,heaven forbid plus I also go on personnel experience for example the new birth.And much more.
~TW~
Personal experience of what?
What new birth, this is all just riddles.
Do you accept that the words you attribute to Jesus were actually written by men. You cannot be sure the words were ever said by Jesus.
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I do know something about it, because I went and found out what the Jews expected of a Messiah.
I'm not going to accept Christian theology uncritically unlike many Christians.
Similarly, others aren't going to accept your interpretation of theology - how ever much you might have investigated it - uncritically. Especially when it doesn't ring true with what we have discovered in conversation and discussion with followers of whichever faith you have chosen to refer to.
Nor am I going to be intimidated by Christians who believe in their own theology more than anything else and who would like to silence me.
That isn't a problem, so long as you are happy to be challenged and questioned on your own understandings and claims.
Probably because they haven't been taught how to answer real questions.
It could possibly also be that they haven't been taught how to answer poor questions.
There is no reason why I should accept anyone's theology.
Not sure that anyone is suggesting that you have to.
Not all Christians accept all of each other's theology anyway.
Yet there are core doctrines that all Christians agree on.
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MMMM
When Christians THEMSELVES cannot agree on ALL THINGS then why should any of us NON-Christians pay you any attention whatsoever ???? ;) ;)
And there ARE some rather nasty elements creeping in & around these forums BTW
Come On, be predictable, someone ?!!??! ;) ;) ::) ::)
Nick
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MMMM
When Christians THEMSELVES cannot agree on ALL THINGS then why should any of us NON-Christians pay you any attention whatsoever ???? ;) ;)
And there ARE some rather nasty elements creeping in & around these forums BTW
Come On, be predictable, someone ?!!??! ;) ;) ::) ::)
Nick
Ah but only the fundies/Biblical literalists have the TRUTH ;D
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OMG (literally)
YES
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MMMM
When Christians THEMSELVES cannot agree on ALL THINGS then why should any of us NON-Christians pay you any attention whatsoever ???? ;) ;)
Is this the attitude you take to politics, or history, or science, Nick?
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I am willing to bet that if it could ever be proved, without a shadow of a doubt, there was no deity or afterlife some would still believe there was!
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H
Religion has its split groups & always has had.
When we have some on here that try to make others believe the same badly thought out & poorly explained issues, what should WE do???
Politics - YES
History - NO
Science - NO
H, you're a good guy, I can tell that easily from your posts & I'm sure we'd all have great conversations if we ever met.
Nick
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Rose I take my information from scripture the links you sent were what men say/hearsay,I prefer what Jesus says.
~TW~
You cannot be sure you have any of the words uttered by Jesus.
You also have what men wrote down as hearsay.
It could all be made up fantasy and you have no way to rule this out.
Make that your prayer.
~TW~
I never pray for obvious reasons.
Do you accept that you too only have words written by others that CLAIM they are the words of Jesus?
Absolutely yes, I am not like you,heaven forbid plus I also go on personnel experience for example the new birth.And much more.
~TW~
Personal experience of what?
What new birth, this is all just riddles.
Do you accept that the words you attribute to Jesus were actually written by men. You cannot be sure the words were ever said by Jesus.
You really are a plonker/dipstick prove to me he never said it.
~TW~
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TW
You really are a plonker/dipstick prove to me he never said it.
Logic is lost on you.
Only an idiot would ask for negative proof.
Do you understand the burden of proof?
I don't know why I ask really, as clearly you cannot.
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TW
You really are a plonker/dipstick prove to me he never said it.
Logic is lost on you.
Only an idiot would ask for negative proof.
Do you understand the burden of proof?
I don't know why I ask really, as clearly you cannot.
I repeat you are a pratt no one can say Jesus said this or that unless that person was there.But because I was not there does not prove he never said it.I know you would love to settle there,but so many other things are also on the line,you are simply an atheist /evolutionist who is standing up for his end,but that is your choice,now allow me to experience my life and Gods involvement in my life,so you know nothing of this not my problem,your problem is who is right and at the moment the odds favour me.
~TW~
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One of the biggest prats on this forum is you TW!
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Talking about garbage and making things up floo. You are the bomb!
I have to save this masterpiece of yours.
"Lord,
Thank goodness you know me,
because I don't always know myself!
I suppose there is a purpose to the menopause,
forgive me when I fail to see it"
Keep them floo! You are amazing!
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Talking about garbage and making things up floo. You are the bomb!
I have to save this masterpiece of yours.
"Lord,
Thank goodness you know me,
because I don't always know myself!
I suppose there is a purpose to the menopause,
forgive me when I fail to see it"
Keep them floo! You are amazing!
Nice one, jc. Keep it up: hypocrites of this type should be exposed.
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I don't know what that method is, please expand.
It's what the historical method is often based on.
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H, you're a good guy, I can tell that easily from your posts & I'm sure we'd all have great conversations if we ever met.
Nick
I suspect we'd enjoy talking things India and subcontinent
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I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!
And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah, Floo?
Bumped for Floo's benefit.
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I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!
It's not even an opinion, Floo, they pretty much admit as much in the gospels.
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Then who exactly are we supposed to 'believe' here ????
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Then who exactly are we supposed to 'believe' here ????
About what?
Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.
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Then who exactly are we supposed to 'believe' here ????
About what?
Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.
Surely they only have an interest in 'pretending' if they already believe it? I don't understand your statement.
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Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.
In fact that is probably about as far from the truth that one can get. Folk like you have a far greater need for Jesus to be shown not to be the Messiah than Christians have for the opposite.
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I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!
It's not even an opinion, Floo, they pretty much admit as much in the gospels.
jeremy, perhaps you can provide us with the answer to the qestion that Foll raised but has been unable/unwilling to answer. Namely "And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah?"
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Then who exactly are we supposed to 'believe' here ????
God, and His revelation to us.
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Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.
In fact that is probably about as far from the truth that one can get.
Well considering how you are stretching the truth beyond breaking point in your desperation to show that you are right, (you in the generic "you Christians" sense), I don't think you have a leg to stand on.
Folk like you have a far greater need for Jesus to be shown not to be the Messiah than Christians have for the opposite.
Nah. In fact, given that the gospel writers clearly knew the OT (in Septuagint form at least), I think it is inevitable that the Jesus of the gospels would resemble the Messiah at some level, simply because that is the message they wanted to transmit.
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Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.
In fact that is probably about as far from the truth that one can get. Folk like you have a far greater need for Jesus to be shown not to be the Messiah than Christians have for the opposite.
Why?
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Why?
See NS's post #59, for one thing. Secondly, there is sufficient evidence within the Old Testament to show that, whatever the Jews understood, their Scriptures were pointing to the messiahship of Jesus. You need somehow to prove that the various passages that point towards Jesus the Christ don't point to it.
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Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.
In fact that is probably about as far from the truth that one can get.
Well considering how you are stretching the truth beyond breaking point in your desperation to show that you are right, (you in the generic "you Christians" sense), I don't think you have a leg to stand on.
Folk like you have a far greater need for Jesus to be shown not to be the Messiah than Christians have for the opposite.
Nah. In fact, given that the gospel writers clearly knew the OT (in Septuagint form at least), I think it is inevitable that the Jesus of the gospels would resemble the Messiah at some level, simply because that is the message they wanted to transmit.
They even managed to make sure he was born and died at the right time, amazing.
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Nah. In fact, given that the gospel writers clearly knew the OT (in Septuagint form at least), I think it is inevitable that the Jesus of the gospels would resemble the Messiah at some level, simply because that is the message they wanted to transmit.
So, answer the question that I've already asked Floo, and recently asked of you: "And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah?"
Until we know what you think the profile of 'messiah' was that existed at the time, we will have wait to give any response to your points.
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Sorry but just how little do Christians 'need', the word really IS need as well, to believe in Jesus as any kind of Messiah????
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I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!
And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah, Floo?
Bumped for Floo's benefit.
The profile was no doubt whatever they wanted it to be, just like the deity and Jesus is whatever it suits a believer to believe about them!
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I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!
And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah, Floo?
Bumped for Floo's benefit.
The profile was no doubt whatever they wanted it to be, just like the deity and Jesus is whatever it suits a believer to believe about them!
The Messiah in Judaism is a great political leader still to come.
Well actually, it is not. "Messiah" means "anointed one" — literally anointed — which is basically a King. David and Solomon were both messiahs. There have been many messiahs in Jewish history.
There is obviously a special messiah still to come, prophesied in the Jewish Bible. Some of the predictions are quite specific. For example the messiah will rebuild the temple. Well that happened in the 6th century BCE. Of course, as it has since been demolished again, I guess there is still an opportunity for a Messiah, although the Muslims might have some objections. Clearly Jesus failed here. In fact, at the time he lived there was no need to rebuild the Temple as there already was one.
It is also prophesied that the Messiah will restore Israel and initiate a World government in Jerusalem. Well, that is not going to happen and Jesus failed to come close to it too.
Oh, yes and the Messiah is of the line of David, which Jesus may have been as long as you discount the virgin birth.
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I don't know what that method is, please expand.
It's what the historical method is often based on.
No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.
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I don't know what that method is, please expand.
It's what the historical method is often based on.
No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.
I agree, especially as they were written down years later and therefore it would be impossible to remember word for word what he is supposed to have said. Besides which, the eye witnesses could well have put their spin on the 'quotes'!
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I don't know what that method is, please expand.
It's what the historical method is often based on.
No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.
I agree, especially as they were written down years later and therefore it would be impossible to remember word for word what he is supposed to have said. Besides which, the eye witnesses could well have put their spin on the 'quotes'!
It seems that Hope-along is cherry picking his methods.
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MMM Can't see anything there about Jesus turning 'His' people into Christians either.
Yes, He was rejected by the far greater majority of Jews as not fulfilling ALL the criteria for The Messiah who was to deliver them from the Romans ??!?!!?
Nick
One of the criteria for being "the Messiah" was that he ushered in a period of world peace.
No one has managed that one yet, although many have claimed to be.
Xxxxxxxxx
The Messiah was supposed to
Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple
Ezekiel 37:26-28King James Version (KJV)
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
The temple are the people of God who have accepted Christ and have been baptised with the Holy Spirit.
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Kingdom of God is within you. The body of believe is the Temple now where God dwells..
Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel
Isaiah 43:5-6King James Version (KJV)
5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
Didn't this already happen.
Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."
Isaiah 2:4King James Version (KJV)
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I guess the many countries where Christ has been accepted this has happened.
But no one is lost unless they do not accept Christ.
It says among the nations.
Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one: "G-d will be King over all the world—on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One"
Zechariah 14:9King James Version (KJV)
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
As you can see Rose it has been altered in your version.
If a candidate fails one he fails them all.
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I don't know what that method is, please expand.
It's what the historical method is often based on.
No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.
Interested to have you substantiate that comment with some names.
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I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!
And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah, Floo?
Bumped for Floo's benefit.
The profile was no doubt whatever they wanted it to be, just like the deity and Jesus is whatever it suits a believer to believe about them!
The Messiah in Judaism is a great political leader still to come.
Well actually, it is not. "Messiah" means "anointed one" — literally anointed — which is basically a King. David and Solomon were both messiahs. There have been many messiahs in Jewish history.
There is obviously a special messiah still to come, prophesied in the Jewish Bible. Some of the predictions are quite specific. For example the messiah will rebuild the temple. Well that happened in the 6th century BCE. Of course, as it has since been demolished again, I guess there is still an opportunity for a Messiah, although the Muslims might have some objections. Clearly Jesus failed here. In fact, at the time he lived there was no need to rebuild the Temple as there already was one.
It is also prophesied that the Messiah will restore Israel and initiate a World government in Jerusalem. Well, that is not going to happen and Jesus failed to come close to it too.
Oh, yes and the Messiah is of the line of David, which Jesus may have been as long as you discount the virgin birth.
But as our Lord says, the Jews completely misunderstood the law and the prophets.
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I don't know what that method is, please expand.
It's what the historical method is often based on.
No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.
Interested to have you substantiate that comment with some names.
Bart Ehrman, I've heard him state this a few times at debates and as I recall his opponent has never challenged this view.
It looks like Hope has accepted what I claimed so maybe take his word for it, he lies a lot but he is a Christian.