Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Muslim Topic => Topic started by: trippymonkey on October 15, 2015, 09:40:56 AM
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ok
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This stuff is really scary
I have been reading a lot of stuff about Islam and the way it is going over the last year or so and it seems to me that things can only get worse. Peaceful co existence seems to be impossible.
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This stuff is really scary
I have been reading a lot of stuff about Islam and the way it is going over the last year or so and it seems to me that things can only get worse. Peaceful co existence seems to be impossible.
And if you were to read the KKK or the Westboro Baptists as the be all and end all of Christianity, you'd be equally as worried about them, and rightfully so. The difference - at the moment - is that the fundamentalist Christians don't yet have control of a military force or an economy. Just as the moderates, secularists and atheists maintain a degree of control over the ultra-Christian idiots, so the moderate Muslims and secularists and atheists will exert a degree of control over the fundamentalists because as they are exposed to other options the barbarity of their primitive philosophy will drive away all but the most rabid.
It will take time and there will be struggles and deaths along the way, no doubt.
O.
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I feel the same when I listen to Republican presidential debates.
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This stuff is really scary
I have been reading a lot of stuff about Islam and the way it is going over the last year or so and it seems to me that things can only get worse. Peaceful co existence seems to be impossible.
If things become polarized, and I'm talking about the Muslims in the west, then we could see moderate Muslims here being pressurised by the situation to take some stance against where they live.....? In situations like this they would have to chose where their loyalties lie.
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Jack ALL Muslims' loyalties lie with Islam & the Middle East. It says so in The Quran itself.
ALL non-Muslims are lesser people than the lowest Muslim.
Keep shtum until you're 'big' enough to take over your area & either convert all else to Islam, force them to pay the Jizya tax ALL non-Muslims would pay, leave or die.
And what's the recent news about that girl who was found with bomb making paper-work on her, or some other stuff & got away with it because SHE APOLOGISED ?!?!? WTF ??????
Nick
And all Christians support slavery and stoning non-virgins, because it says so in their holy book, right...
O.
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Jack ALL Muslims' loyalties lie with Islam & the Middle East. It says so in The Quran itself.
ALL non-Muslims are lesser people than the lowest Muslim.
Keep shtum until you're 'big' enough to take over your area & either convert all else to Islam, force them to pay the Jizya tax ALL non-Muslims would pay, leave or die.
Nick
Interesting beliefs you have about "ALL" Muslims. What do you believe having loyalty to Islam and the Middle East means in terms of actual behaviours?
Oh, I see you went on to explain what that means to you in terms of behaviour. You sound just like the people (some of them are Muslim) who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
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You sound just like the people (some of them are Muslim) who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
Are you by any chance accusing trippy of being a Nazi or of having sypathy for nazi values!
The term "world-wide Jewish conspiracy" is straight out of Mein Kampf!
As I see it - IS Islam and Nazism are identical - one is and the other was seeking world domination under their particular philosphies. Both are equally obnoxious - one of the few differences is that IS skips the concentration camp and goes straight to the executions and uses rather older fashioned methods of execution.
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You sound just like the people (some of them are Muslim) who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
Are you by any chance accusing trippy of being a Nazi or of having sypathy for nazi values!
Ok. Feel free to believe that I said trippy has sympathy for Nazi values towards Jews - far be it for me to spoil your enjoyment on this Message Board by asking you not to misrepresent people's posts. Many misrepresentations I think have more comedic value if left uncorrected.
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You sound just like the people (some of them are Muslim) who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
Are you by any chance accusing trippy of being a Nazi or of having sypathy for nazi values!
Ok. Feel free to believe that I said trippy has sympathy for Nazi values towards Jews - far be it for me to spoil your enjoyment on this Message Board by asking you not to misrepresent people's posts. Many misrepresentations I think have more comedic value if left uncorrected.
NO misrepresentation was made - I note that you carefully edited out this part of my post:
The term "world-wide Jewish conspiracy" is straight out of Mein Kampf!
YOU used it, and I am asking you to justify its use in connection with trippy's comments.
I find absolutely nothing "comedic" about either Nazism or the IS form of Islam or, for that matter, any form of anti-Semitism.
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You sound just like the people (some of them are Muslim) who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
Are you by any chance accusing trippy of being a Nazi or of having sypathy for nazi values!
Ok. Feel free to believe that I said trippy has sympathy for Nazi values towards Jews - far be it for me to spoil your enjoyment on this Message Board by asking you not to misrepresent people's posts. Many misrepresentations I think have more comedic value if left uncorrected.
NO misrepresentation was made - I note that you carefully edited out this part of my post:
The term "world-wide Jewish conspiracy" is straight out of Mein Kampf!
YOU used it, and I am asking you to justify its use in connection with trippy's comments.
I find absolutely nothing "comedic" about either Nazism or the IS form of Islam or, for that matter, any form of anti-Semitism.
A misrepresentation was made - I did not say Trippy thought there was a world-wide Jewish conspiracy. I said he sounds like the people who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy when he talks about "ALL Muslims' loyalties lie with Islam & the Middle East. It says so in The Quran itself.
ALL non-Muslims are lesser people than the lowest Muslim.
Keep shtum until you're 'big' enough to take over your area & either convert all else to Islam, force them to pay the Jizya tax ALL non-Muslims would pay, leave or die."
I am afraid you are not paying me enough to give you lessons on the English language - consult an English teacher if you want clarification. So like I said, you feel free to misrepresent me. Oh and also feel free to keep insisting that you are not misrepresenting me if it makes you happy.
Also, you probably should consult the English teacher you hire about the difference in wording between finding misrepresentations comedic and finding Nazism comedic - it might help you to reduce the number of times you make a fool of your self on this Message Board.
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ALL non-Muslims are lesser people than the lowest Muslim.
YOU WISH!
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ALL non-Muslims are lesser people than the lowest Muslim.
YOU WISH!
Trippy made that statement, not me :)
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What about the west, Pope, price of butter though.
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Jack ALL Muslims' loyalties lie with Islam & the Middle East. It says so in The Quran itself.
ALL non-Muslims are lesser people than the lowest Muslim.
Keep shtum until you're 'big' enough to take over your area & either convert all else to Islam, force them to pay the Jizya tax ALL non-Muslims would pay, leave or die.
Nick
Interesting beliefs you have about "ALL" Muslims. What do you believe having loyalty to Islam and the Middle East means in terms of actual behaviours?
Oh, I see you went on to explain what that means to you in terms of behaviour. You sound just like the people (some of them are Muslim) who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
Gabriella, how loyal are Muslims to what the Koran says? Is it blind obedience? If it says kill a certain group etc. will they take that as an injunction from Allah?
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Jack ALL Muslims' loyalties lie with Islam & the Middle East. It says so in The Quran itself.
ALL non-Muslims are lesser people than the lowest Muslim.
Keep shtum until you're 'big' enough to take over your area & either convert all else to Islam, force them to pay the Jizya tax ALL non-Muslims would pay, leave or die.
Nick
Interesting beliefs you have about "ALL" Muslims. What do you believe having loyalty to Islam and the Middle East means in terms of actual behaviours?
Oh, I see you went on to explain what that means to you in terms of behaviour. You sound just like the people (some of them are Muslim) who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
Gabriella, how loyal are Muslims to what the Koran says? Is it blind obedience? If it says kill a certain group etc. will they take that as an injunction from Allah?
Firstly Muslims don't all act as one entity - they are individuals - so I can't be a spokesperson for all billion plus Muslims in the world.
Secondly, does the Quran say kill a certain group? What group is that? As I said, there are over a billion Muslims in the world so once you have worked out which group they are supposed to kill, please let me know. Last time I looked in various conflict-ridden countries there were some Muslims killing other Muslims - does that give you the impression that the Quran tells Muslims to kill Muslims? Is that the group you are referring to?
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Jack ALL Muslims' loyalties lie with Islam & the Middle East. It says so in The Quran itself.
ALL non-Muslims are lesser people than the lowest Muslim.
Keep shtum until you're 'big' enough to take over your area & either convert all else to Islam, force them to pay the Jizya tax ALL non-Muslims would pay, leave or die.
Nick
Interesting beliefs you have about "ALL" Muslims. What do you believe having loyalty to Islam and the Middle East means in terms of actual behaviours?
Oh, I see you went on to explain what that means to you in terms of behaviour. You sound just like the people (some of them are Muslim) who think there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
Gabriella, how loyal are Muslims to what the Koran says? Is it blind obedience? If it says kill a certain group etc. will they take that as an injunction from Allah?
Firstly Muslims don't all act as one entity - they are individuals - so I can't be a spokesperson for all billion plus Muslims in the world.
Secondly, does the Quran say kill a certain group? What group is that? As I said, there are over a billion Muslims in the world so once you have worked out which group they are supposed to kill, please let me know. Last time I looked in various conflict-ridden countries there were some Muslims killing other Muslims - does that give you the impression that the Quran tells Muslims to kill Muslims? Is that the group you are referring to?
You've focused on the wrong bit. I was mainly asking how loyal are Muslims to what the Quran says. Is it the gospel truth to them and what it says goes without question? So if it says hop on one leg for a minute on the hour for each hour of some specific afternoon they will do this without question, no ifs no buts?
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There's both an irony and an issue with the idea of gospel truth here - it implies that statements are not contextual and interpreted and have some basic meaning that is not at all interpretable
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There's both an irony and an issue with the idea of gospel truth here - it implies that statements are not contextual and interpreted and have some basic meaning that is not at all interpretable
It depends on how plain the instruction is. The context is how the person perceives the world they have grown up in and the interpretation will be based on this and their personal experience. I was, however, thinking of those instructions which are pretty plain in their meaning. I believe Muslims are told to pray 5 times a day so the question is do all Muslims do this regardless because it is in the Koran, or do they waiver this on a whim....?
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There is no clear instruction in the Quran to pray 5 times a day - that is based on interpretation and what Prophet Mohamed is believed to have practised.
A lot of Shia Muslims pray 3 times a day.
Muslims don't all act the same way - some will be more observant than others of rules e.g. about avoiding intoxicants, or avoiding paying or receiving interest, or avoiding gambling.... or avoiding murdering people.
Some members of a Muslim community who feel they have been oppressed and driven from their homes may unilaterally declare war on their perceived oppressors, while others might think this is a decision to be made only by the leader of that Muslim community, as was done (according to my understanding of Quranic verses) in the time of Prophet Mohamed against the tribes who had expelled the Muslims from Mecca and tried to kill Prophet Mohamed, forcing him to flee and set up a community elsewhere. The Quran talks about fighting those who fight you, but if the enemy inclines to peace, Muslims should also incline towards peace. As NS said, the verses in the Quran also have to be looked at in the context of the events believed to be taking place at the time the verses were revealed.
I have no idea how many Muslims today feel they have been attacked and feel they need to fight back, but haven't noticed a large Muslim army on the attack - IS numbers fighting in the ME are in the thousands, but estimates have ranged from 31,500 to 200,000 depending on who you ask (and who knows if the person making the estimate has a WMD type agenda). That still isn't much for a post-invasion civil war, in an area where there is sectarianism, corruption, and lots of young unemployed men with access to weapons that were abandoned by the Iraqi army, and access to cash from oil sales to buy more weapons and pay more fighters, out of the millions of Muslims in that very volatile region and the billion Muslims world-wide.
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The Westboro Baptist Church think Kim Davis is categorically wrong, is she? What is the correct interpretation of scripture? Even easier, pray tell about how you objectively interpret this post;
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BTW G Here's something to think about Islam's view of homosexuality.
Just in case you didn't know, of course ?!!?!? ;) ;) ::)
http://www.islamawareness.net/Homosexuality/homo.html
MMM They might be liars too. Oh No !!! They've put Quranic quotes in too AAAGGGHHHH
Nick
Yes - this is the usual approach I have come across in religions - that people are required to control their behaviour (whether it is homosexual or heterosexual sexual behaviour or any other behaviour) in line with what they think is morally acceptable to god. And if they find it hard to refrain from behaviours that they want to do, it is a moral test. I usually take that approach to drinking alcohol or if I am attracted to someone I shouldn't be, given that I am married, lots of behaviours and thoughts in fact.
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BTW G Here's something to think about Islam's view of homosexuality.
Just in case you didn't know, of course ?!!?!? ;) ;) ::)
http://www.islamawareness.net/Homosexuality/homo.html
MMM They might be liars too. Oh No !!! They've put Quranic quotes in too AAAGGGHHHH
Nick
Yes - this is the usual approach I have come across in religions - that people are required to control their behaviour (whether it is homosexual or heterosexual sexual behaviour or any other behaviour) in line with what they think is morally acceptable to god. And if they find it hard to refrain from behaviours that they want to do, it is a moral test. I usually take that approach to drinking alcohol or if I am attracted to someone I shouldn't be, given that I am married, lots of behaviours and thoughts in fact.
Do the Muslims believe in original sin?
I ask because I do wonder sometimes if the Muslims consider why someone has a certain sexual orientation, and who they blame for this as Allah made them did It not, and you usually blame the maker not the product if it goes 'wrong'? I guess the idea of freewill and all that might be a factor here for Muslims as it is for Christians.
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NOPE No Original Sin in Islam. There's Hadith, so-called saying of their prophet, rubbishing the idea.
SO..... it bring up other 'mysteries' then like your idea of the Maker having faulty goods.
Christians may well then go on about Free Will but if your orientation seems 'fixed' .......
Isn't it all open to interpretation though?
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YES & this is why you can never really argue a point on these boards as nothing seems perfectly set in stone. ;) ::)
A is not always A !!!
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www.lbc.co.uk/iain-dales-two-extraordinary-calls-on-gay-muslims-118408
Diverse views.
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Totally agree & very sorry to hear about your friend & that awful Mosque blast in Pakistan.
Thanks for your honesty too. :)
Honesty? What about? My beliefs?
It's not a big deal but just curious about what you are referring to, or why it's surprising that I would be honest whereby you thought you would comment on it, as there is not much point caring about what other people think of me whereby I would not be honest, especially on a small anonymous forum like this one.
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BTW G Here's something to think about Islam's view of homosexuality.
Just in case you didn't know, of course ?!!?!? ;) ;) ::)
http://www.islamawareness.net/Homosexuality/homo.html
MMM They might be liars too. Oh No !!! They've put Quranic quotes in too AAAGGGHHHH
Nick
Yes - this is the usual approach I have come across in religions - that people are required to control their behaviour (whether it is homosexual or heterosexual sexual behaviour or any other behaviour) in line with what they think is morally acceptable to god. And if they find it hard to refrain from behaviours that they want to do, it is a moral test. I usually take that approach to drinking alcohol or if I am attracted to someone I shouldn't be, given that I am married, lots of behaviours and thoughts in fact.
Do the Muslims believe in original sin?
I ask because I do wonder sometimes if the Muslims consider why someone has a certain sexual orientation, and who they blame for this as Allah made them did It not, and you usually blame the maker not the product if it goes 'wrong'? I guess the idea of freewill and all that might be a factor here for Muslims as it is for Christians.
No - my understanding is there is no Original Sin concept. Each individual is accountable for their own thoughts, actions, and intentions during their life.
Each individual Muslim will therefore wonder their own individual thoughts about why people have feelings and desires that they cannot always express or act upon. My understanding of the concept in Islam is that it is a test, to see if there is patience and thankfulness even in the face adversity. Obviously there will be some people who resent that concept of a test, and others who don't.
Some people find hardship can bring out benefits or strengths or resilience.
Obviously I can only speak about the problems I have faced, not other people's problems - they will have to find their own way to deal with their problems as they think best and bear the consequences, whatever they might be in terms of the society they are in. And for those who believe in god, they will probably also feel they will ultimately be held accountable by god's justice/ mercy, which they probably will feel they do not understand but have faith in it nevertheless.
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You've been less, shall we say, on the defence of Islam recently.
No I haven't. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
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BTW G Here's something to think about Islam's view of homosexuality.
Just in case you didn't know, of course ?!!?!? ;) ;) ::)
http://www.islamawareness.net/Homosexuality/homo.html
MMM They might be liars too. Oh No !!! They've put Quranic quotes in too AAAGGGHHHH
Nick
Yes - this is the usual approach I have come across in religions - that people are required to control their behaviour (whether it is homosexual or heterosexual sexual behaviour or any other behaviour) in line with what they think is morally acceptable to god. And if they find it hard to refrain from behaviours that they want to do, it is a moral test. I usually take that approach to drinking alcohol or if I am attracted to someone I shouldn't be, given that I am married, lots of behaviours and thoughts in fact.
Do the Muslims believe in original sin?
I ask because I do wonder sometimes if the Muslims consider why someone has a certain sexual orientation, and who they blame for this as Allah made them did It not, and you usually blame the maker not the product if it goes 'wrong'? I guess the idea of freewill and all that might be a factor here for Muslims as it is for Christians.
No - my understanding is there is no Original Sin concept. Each individual is accountable for their own thoughts, actions, and intentions during their life.
Each individual Muslim will therefore wonder their own individual thoughts about why people have feelings and desires that they cannot always express or act upon. My understanding of the concept in Islam is that it is a test, to see if there is patience and thankfulness even in the face adversity. Obviously there will be some people who resent that concept of a test, and others who don't.
Some people find hardship can bring out benefits or strengths or resilience.
Obviously I can only speak about the problems I have faced, not other people's problems - they will have to find their own way to deal with their problems as they think best and bear the consequences, whatever they might be in terms of the society they are in. And for those who believe in god, they will probably also feel they will ultimately be held accountable by god's justice/ mercy, which they probably will feel they do not understand but have faith in it nevertheless.
But that doesn't explain why people are different in their attitude and conduct. You must be aware of things you feel etc. and which you have no or little control over them? You didn't choose to be born or find yourself with these elements that shape your life. Or does Islam assume all people are born the same, no psychological differences, all with the same strengths and weaknesses?