Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on October 16, 2015, 04:03:49 PM
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Hi everyone,
Here is a video about Michael Shermer...the skeptic... and his analysis of an astrologer. Watch it fully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbwrCfj7VMg
Cheers.
Sriram
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Michael Shermer
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Michael Shermer
Yes...that's right. Sorry. Corrected!
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https://marcalandimartino.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/the-curious-case-of-shermer-vs-armstrong/
LOL.
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I can't watch the clip because I'm on the train, but if anybody is claiming that astrology is anything other than complete bollocks then they are (as a person I can unfortunately overhear in the buffet car puts it) talking complete shit.
Astrology is utter bollocks. End of story.
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I think Shermer really couldn't find any thing to fault. Sadly, instead of concluding it positively he just ended it abruptly.
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I think Shermer really couldn't find any thing to fault. Sadly, instead of concluding it positively he just ended it abruptly.
You need to read Jackwan's link. Shermer was not in control.
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I think Shermer really couldn't find any thing to fault. Sadly, instead of concluding it positively he just ended it abruptly.
You need to read Jackwan's link. Shermer was not in control.
I have read the link. He talks about some cameramen not having the time or some such. Rubbish! And he does not question the percentage of hits vs misses shown in the video in any case.
And they keep saying there is no scientific study!! ::) The one by Shermer is a scientific study, for heavens sake!! They can just continue on the same lines.
A skeptic wanting to show things in the right light wouldn't allow such matters as cameramen wanting to go home.... to get the better of him. He could have easily made another video later and concluded properly without releasing the first one.
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And here is Derren Brown producing an reading with an accuracy rating of 82%.
https://youtu.be/2bCjzLij54k
So that makes astrology 5% less 'accurate' than just giving everyone the same piece of paper.
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Astrology is utter bollocks. End of story.
It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon. This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.
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It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon.
Was it really? Got any evidence of that?
This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.
Does this influence obey the inverse square law?
If so, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by the Earth.
If not, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by all the other bodies in the Universe.
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It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon.
Was it really? Got any evidence of that?
This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.
Does this influence obey the inverse square law?
If so, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by the Earth.
If not, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by all the other bodies in the Universe.
I think I read it in an old psychology book years ago, but I cannot quote the reference as I do not remember.
But here is a BBC article that suggests the full moon has an effect on people and animals.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131029-does-a-full-moon-make-people-mad
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I think I read it in an old psychology book years ago, but I cannot quote the reference as I do not remember.
But here is a BBC article that suggests the full moon has an effect on people and animals.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131029-does-a-full-moon-make-people-mad
Read it again. It actually says no effect can be found.
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Astrology is utter bollocks. End of story.
It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon. This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.
It was also well known that women suffered mental problems because they had uteruses. This was also plain wrong, but lots of people knew it.
Several meta-analyses of the various studies on the so-called 'Lunar Effect' have concluded that it's a myth.
Even if it weren't, the moon is orders of magnitude closer to the Earth than the stars that make up the Western astrological 'houses', let alone those in the (conflicting) Chinese arrangement, so you couldn't necessarily deduce an astrological effect from the lunar.
O.
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It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon.
Was it really? Got any evidence of that?
This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.
Does this influence obey the inverse square law?
If so, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by the Earth.
If not, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by all the other bodies in the Universe.
I think I read it in an old psychology book years ago, but I cannot quote the reference as I do not remember.
But here is a BBC article that suggests the full moon has an effect on people and animals.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131029-does-a-full-moon-make-people-mad
The BBC article is gloriously inconclusive. It states that a meta analysis of published results found no effect but suggests that, for example, police reports may be due to confirmation bias - it's the full moon so we'll but more policemen on duty and the larger number of policemen make more arrests. Of course it's the full moon that does this, not the increased police activity.
I must look up the animal biting study - but a suggestion here is that it not animals themselves which are affected but parasites whose life cycle is determined by the lunar cycle.
In many years of reading psychology textbooks, journals and conference reports, I cannot recall reading anything suggesting that there is evidence to support human behaviour being affected by lunar cycles. I suspect that it was the empirical research of Victorians like Bram Stoker who helped to create the concept of the "lunatic".
You may find the following abstract from a short paper in a respected psychology journal of value:
Perceptual and Motor Skills, 1970, 30, 827-830.
THE MOON AND MENTAL ILLNESS: A FAILURE TO CONFIRM THE TRANSYLVANIA EFFECT
J. L. SHAPIRO, D.L. STREINER, A. L. GRAY, NANCY L. WILLIAMS, AND CONNIE SOBLE
Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital, Hamilton, Ontario
Summary.-The Transylvania effect-the notion that certain patient behavior coincides with moon phases-was carefully tested during a 3-month summer period in 1969. Three non-reactive measures were employed and no significant results were found on any of them. It was concluded that a meaningful correlation between the moon phase and acting out behavior of mental patients did not exist and, therefore, did not explain many unresolved problems
in the area.
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Skepticism has become a habit. Many people can't seem to help it any more. They just enjoy being skeptical.
Many things that were earlier considered as wacko or related to the supernatural or superstition or blind belief... are now being accepted and even promoted. Yoga and meditations come to mind immediately. The merits of many traditional systems such as Ayurveda and Acupuncture are now being realized.
Maybe astrology will also join the ranks of the above systems in course of time.
The shoe is on the other foot. The same 'upstream' battle that science had to wage against religions is now being waged by many ancient systems of knowledge against the skeptics. It'll all even out eventually IMO.
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Rose,
I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Like many other discoveries and forms of knowledge we have acquired over the centuries such as medicine, genetics, psychology, geology, evolution, engineering and so on...which help us in many ways but do not contradict faith....similarly there are other fields of knowledge such as astrology, knowledge of the biofield and so on which though ancient, are now being rediscovered and understood in modern parlance.
What is the problem with that?
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Rose,
I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Like many other discoveries and forms of knowledge we have acquired over the centuries such as medicine, genetics, psychology, geology, evolution, engineering and so on...which help us in many ways but do not contradict faith....similarly there are other fields of knowledge such as astrology, knowledge of the biofield and so on which though ancient, are now being rediscovered and understood in modern parlance.
What is the problem with that?
Don't forget to add fairies and leprechauns to your list.
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Skepticism has become a habit. Many people can't seem to help it any more. They just enjoy being skeptical.
No, skepticism is a validated method - don't accept anything until it's been supported by sufficient evidence.
Many things that were earlier considered as wacko or related to the supernatural or superstition or blind belief... are now being accepted and even promoted.
Only with significant qualifications or by Deepak Chopra-style whack-jobs.
Yoga and meditations come to mind immediately.
Yoga is a reasonably good, low-impact exercise form, but there's nothing to back any further claims than that. Meditation, mindfulness, just forms of 'take a moment to calm yourself' - neither rocket-science nor mysticism.
Maybe astrology will also join the ranks of the above systems in course of time.
Or, on the other hand, maybe the complete lack of any reliable evidence for the past few thousand years will be a clue that there's nothing in it.
The shoe is on the other foot. The same 'upstream' battle that science had to wage against religions is now being waged by many ancient systems of knowledge against the skeptics. It'll all even out eventually IMO.
We can but hope.
O.
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Skepticism has become a habit. Many people can't seem to help it any more. They just enjoy being skeptical.
And the same can be said about its polar opposite condition: credulity. Some people enjoy being credulous.
The merits of many traditional systems such as Ayurveda and Acupuncture are now being realized.
These "merits" are, however, greatly outweighed by their failures.
As far as acupuncture is concerned, Cochrane reviews (the formal results of evidence-based medical trials) find little support for the claims of its proponents and suggest that positive results are due to the placebo effect.
And as for ayurveda, there is still a need for patients to believe that many of its treatments will be successful, but - given the long history of its "guess and test" methodology - how many millions of corpses, over the ages, bear witness to its failures? There is, today, concern over substances like mercury sometimes found in its potions.
Maybe astrology will also join the ranks of the above systems in course of time.
And what explanation can be given to the effect of a star for which the only evidence that it actually exists is light which left it thousands of years ago?
The shoe is on the other foot. The same 'upstream' battle that science had to wage against religions is now being waged by many ancient systems of knowledge against the skeptics. It'll all even out eventually IMO.
You wish.
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O, just a point about mindfulness and meditation - they aren't about 'taking a moment to calm yourself'. Nor are they woo of course. The point with mindfulness and meditation is to meet things as they are, not distract yourself from them or find ways to ignore them. Wiggs and Shaker are both far more seasoned meditators than I but believe me, there's more to it than just listening to some nice music and taking a few deep breaths.
Will you do me a favour? Buy or borrow Teach Us To Sit Still by the novelist Tim Parks.
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I think astrology is garbage.
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Which is why we shouldn't be discussing it alongside stuff that isn't.
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Which is why we shouldn't be discussing it alongside stuff that isn't.
Like what?
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O, just a point about mindfulness and meditation - they aren't about 'taking a moment to calm yourself'. Nor are they woo of course. The point with mindfulness and meditation is to meet things as they are, not distract yourself from them or find ways to ignore them. Wiggs and Shaker are both far more seasoned meditators than I but believe me, there's more to it than just listening to some nice music and taking a few deep breaths.
Will you do me a favour? Buy or borrow Teach Us To Sit Still by the novelist Tim Parks.
Actually, mindfulness and meditation really is just about taking that moment out. Once you've taken that moment, shed the seemingly important demands and pressures, that's when you can focus on what's actually important. I'm not meaning to denigrate its usefulness or utility, I was just attempting to strip away the woo from it.
I'll add Parks to the seemingly endless list :)
O.
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O, just a point about mindfulness and meditation - they aren't about 'taking a moment to calm yourself'. Nor are they woo of course. The point with mindfulness and meditation is to meet things as they are, not distract yourself from them or find ways to ignore them. Wiggs and Shaker are both far more seasoned meditators than I but believe me, there's more to it than just listening to some nice music and taking a few deep breaths.
Will you do me a favour? Buy or borrow Teach Us To Sit Still by the novelist Tim Parks.
Actually, mindfulness and meditation really is just about taking that moment out. Once you've taken that moment, shed the seemingly important demands and pressures, that's when you can focus on what's actually important. I'm not meaning to denigrate its usefulness or utility, I was just attempting to strip away the woo from it.
I'll add Parks to the seemingly endless list :)
O.
Not really. I could sit here with a cup of herbal tea and some nice music, breathe deeply and within five minutes I'll be made extremely anxious by letting my thoughts run. Meditation is about learning how to meet those thoughts - which very often aren't important and don't reflect reality - with kindness and clarity. Mindfulness is slightly different and is a re focussing of the mind's attention, to the present moment. This can be through mindful action, mindful listening or looking, as well as through mindful awareness of the body.
It's all available in secular form. No woo to see here.
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Dear Floo,
Well you would, you being a Capricorn. ::)
Gonnagle.
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I am for meditation, that is biblical meditation. And biblical meditation is absolutely not the meditation you will learn in a yoga class. That Hindu based meditation is leading many Christians away from what scripture teaches.
Here is what biblical meditation is and is not.
http://stronginfaith.org/article.php?page=19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZgsXeZ31X4
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Sriram
Not everyone believes in using something like Astrology to determine things in their life, some prefer to work things out for themselves.
Astrology isn't something I personally believe in, but even if you could "prove" it was true 100% and really worked, I still wouldn't use it to make my life decisions.
Rose,
You are free to live as you want Rose. No one is asking you to use astrology. Secondly, just because astrology could be valid...does not mean everyone is going to use it for everything. I don't...though I know it is valid.
Astrology is about influences...just as the weather affects us, solar flares affect us, the moon affects tides, melting ice in Antarctica affects the temperature in UK....and so on.
Its also about predetermination and how initial conditions affect future events. There are very complex mathematical calculations (in Vedic astrology) involved and they can be surprisingly accurate.
Here are some Science Daily articles about how time of birth can affect personality and moods in later life.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141018205411.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101205202510.htm
And they are just scratching the surface here! There is lot more.
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Astrology is the tool of the manipulator, and the charlatan con-man. This thread is not worthy of sensible discussioin
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Dear Floo,
Well you would, you being a Capricorn. ::)
Gonnagle.
I am NOT a Capricorn, you got that WRONG!
I don't suppose astrology is any worse than the stuff the fundies/Biblical literalists believe.
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Astrology is the tool of the manipulator, and the charlatan con-man. This thread is not worthy of sensible discussioin
It is because sometimes such things frighten people. Some Christians vamp up the evil demon aspect and it creates a kind of superstitious fear.
Have you any evidence that Christians" vamp it up." And why specifically Christians?
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Dear Floo,
Well you would, you being a Capricorn. ::)
Gonnagle.
I am NOT a Capricorn, you got that WRONG!
I don't suppose astrology is any worse than the stuff the fundies/Biblical literalist believe.
Nah I reckon Floo is either Taurus or Leo ;)
Probably Taurus lol
Aquarius, actually! ;D
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What is attributed to those of us who are born under the sign of Aquarius, I have no idea?
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What is attributed to those of us who are born under the sign of Aquarius, I have no idea?
For a laugh
Taken from here
http://www.cafeastrology.com/articles/aquariuswomanlove.html
(A word of advice if you're trying to get to grips with the Aquarius woman - don't. You can't bottle the four winds in a jar, or tie down the clouds. So don't try. Don't pin her down to a stereotype because she will more than likely buck all expectations and be exactly what you do not expect her to be. More than anything, she is the ultimate non-conformist.
Aquarius is an air sign, but unlike her other light-hearted zodiac sisters, an Aquarius woman is no gentle breeze or dreamy zephyr. She is a tempest filled with an inner force and power, which can be a little scary when you first come into contact with her. Hold on tight and go along for the ride. If you pass through the eye of the storm, you will find a smart, independent, and most of all, original woman at the heart of the hurricane.
Many Aquarians have a visionary, grand, and humanitarian approach to life.
Bursting with brilliant ideas and sizzling with intelligence, some famous Aquarius women include Zsa Zsa Gabor, Virginia Woolf, Germaine Greer, and Oprah Winfrey.)
Xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Four winds in a jar, the heart of a hurricane, that can be kinda scary?
Not a stereotype, nonconformist.
Is that you, Floo?
;D
It seems a bit accurate, WOW! ;D
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Hi everyone,
Actually the western zodiac system using the sun sign is pretty broad.
In the Vedic system 27 stellar groups (nakshatras) are used which are further divided into 4 sections (padas). So...any individual can be born in one of 108 divisions. A horoscope for any individual is cast based on the moon in one of the 108 divisions at the time of birth.....and sun and other planets in different houses.
The calculations are very complicated and if cast correctly, can be surprisingly accurate.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Skepticism has become a habit. Many people can't seem to help it any more. They just enjoy being skeptical.
No.
We enjoy having evidence that a claim is true. That's all there is to it.
Many things that were earlier considered as wacko or related to the supernatural or superstition or blind belief... are now being accepted and even promoted. Yoga and meditations come to mind immediately. The merits of many traditional systems such as Ayurveda and Acupuncture are now being realised.
That depends on your expectations. None of the above are anything more than placebo in respect of healing properties.
Maybe astrology will also join the ranks of the above systems in course of time.
It already has, firmly in the pseudoscience section.
The shoe is on the other foot. The same 'upstream' battle that science had to wage against religions is now being waged by many ancient systems of knowledge against the skeptics. It'll all even out eventually IMO.
You seem to be somewhat deluded.
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The calculations are very complicated and if cast correctly, can be surprisingly accurate.
How do you cast a calculation? Let me guess if its not accurate the cast was wrong, if it is accurate then woo woo it works.
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Shermer could take a bigger sample size and try out a similar experiment. Problem is that if there is a possibility of the results going against their perceptions and mindsets, most people are likely to abandon such projects! :D
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Shermer could take a bigger sample size and try out a similar experiment. Problem is that if there is a possibility of the results going against their perceptions and mindsets, most people are likely to abandon such projects! :D
A conspiracy, get the tin foil ready got some hats to make.
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Yes...Rose. A personal horoscope is bound to be more accurate than the monthly zodiac one. Also as I have mentioned above, the western (Greek) system has only 12 divisions and takes the position of the Sun at any time. The sun being relatively slow, the changes in position for different children born at different times are likely to be very minor.
The Hindu (Vedic) system has 108 divisions and take into account the position of the moon for casting the horoscope. The moon moves from one section (pada) to the other within 6 hours and therefore there is likely to be greater accuracy while casting the horoscope.
I can't understand why you are so apologetic and embarrassed about believing in astrology. Is it just because Jakswan will make a caustic remark?! Oh..you're better than that surely! :)
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Accurate in what way Sriram?
Predicting the future or giving you an accurate account of a persons personality?
My friend claims to be psychic and does tarot readings but most of it is based on random/general traits which can be said about us all e.g. moody, calm, hyper etc naturally she tends to believe in anything or everything and is as mad as a box of frogs ;D Sound familiar? ::)
It might look nice on paper but like most of your posts lacks any credible scientific evidence to back it up. It appears all these 'experts' you call upon are peddling these things for cash or writing a book about them for the more gullible/desperate amongst us
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I remember the resident astrologer on the TV TIMes(anyone remember Tivvy, the mascot by the way?) giving a reading for John F. Kennedy suggesting that the signs were very much in his favour and that he would become an outstanding president, especially in his second term, which he would win. I think it was about two weeks later that he was assassinated. Didn't see that one coming did he/she?
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I am just too young for tivvy but found this
http://www.45cat.com/record/tf636
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One I read accurately predicted Chris Martin sitting from Gwynnie Paltrow. Wow that one was a shock.
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I am just too young for tivvy but found this
http://www.45cat.com/record/tf636
Thanks, Nearly. Brought back memories. My Dad made a Tivvy for our youngest son out of an old sock, some black wool, pipe cleaners and some bits of plastic. (He was very creative with his hands.) I've still got it, and it rests on top of a book case. I happened to see it while reading this thread, and that brought the case of the TV TIMES astrologer to mind.
Sorry for the diversion, folks.
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Yes...Rose. A personal horoscope is bound to be more accurate than the monthly zodiac one. Also as I have mentioned above, the western (Greek) system has only 12 divisions and takes the position of the Sun at any time. The sun being relatively slow, the changes in position for different children born at different times are likely to be very minor.
The Hindu (Vedic) system has 108 divisions and take into account the position of the moon for casting the horoscope. The moon moves from one section (pada) to the other within 6 hours and therefore there is likely to be greater accuracy while casting the horoscope.
I can't understand why you are so apologetic and embarrassed about believing in astrology. Is it just because Jakswan will make a caustic remark?! Oh..you're better than that surely! :)
Sriram, it's all bollocks. What on Earth makes you think that the Moon's position relative to the nearby stars of the Milky Way could have any effect on the personality of somebody born on Earth.
You really should try to engage your brain.
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The thing is people can read something entirely random and find meaning in it. eg The I Ching "works" along similar lines. It is not the moon or yarrow sticks actually affecting anything, but your interpretation of an essentially random set of words in a way that applies to you.
A bit like Boroughs's "cut up" works. or a lot of music, poetry or modern art.
Making "sense" of an essentially meaningless random universe is one of our "talents" - an evolved survival tactic.
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Hi everyone,
I guess we have to wait for Shermer to conduct more such trials and prove that astrology does have some merit.
Don't try to reason out every thing. We don't know enough about the world to be able to logically work everything out....and the world may not even fit into our human logic. It could be completely non-logical.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Hi everyone,
I guess we have to wait for Shermer to conduct more such trials and prove that astrology does have some merit.
Don't try to reason out every thing. We don't know enough about the world to be able to logically work everything out....and the world may not even fit into our human logic. It could be completely non-logical.
Cheers.
Sriram
Hi everyone,
Don't listen to anyone that is deluded so much that they start a post with 'hi everyone'.
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Don't try to reason out every thing. We don't know enough about the world to be able to logically work everything out....and the world may not even fit into our human logic. It could be completely non-logical.
Intellectual copout.
Of course everything is logical. The universe is governed by the laws of physics. I am prepared to accept that there are physical properties that we have yet to discover but ultimately everything is explicable according to the logic of physics.
As a matter of interest, what is so special about birth that makes it so important for astrology? What specific properties does a woman's body possess which makes the child she is carrying impervious to the cosmic influences which will start to direct the child when it is born? Does the amniotic fluid protect the child?
If so, what is in the fluid which is so potent - after all it is mainly water? Could it be urea? If someone is born in, say, a submarine, should his or her horoscope only be cast when the submarine comes to the surface?
What is the specific emission from the star or planet which determines the life plan of the child? Given the inverse-square law, why doesn't the influence of the sun (a star) totally swamp all other stellar and planetary influences, which will be infinitesimally small in comparison?
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Dear Harrowby,
The universe is governed by the laws of physics.
Is it. :o :o Physics is a man made word.
And, and!! I think this question was asked way back on the old Beeb, us/man is made up of something like 70% water, does the moon affect us?
Gonnagle.
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I guess we have to wait for Shermer to conduct more such trials and prove that astrology does have some merit.
Or we could just review all the current evidence, and the previous trials, and conclude that there's no merit in it whatsoever, whilst acknowledging the excellent use of the Forer Effect that's manifested in most of the astrology columns out there.
Don't try to reason out every thing. We don't know enough about the world to be able to logically work everything out....
So we shouldn't try to work anything out? We should accept any old assertions? No, how about, try to reason out whatever you can, and what you can't reason yet... work out how.
and the world may not even fit into our human logic.
It might not, but it's been pretty reliable so far.
It could be completely non-logical.
And yet water still flows downhill pretty consistently...
O.
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Dear Harrowby,
The universe is governed by the laws of physics.
Is it. :o :o Physics is a man made word.
So what?
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet
William Shakespeare
Romeo and Juliet Act II, Scene II
Take away the name, the concepts and their effects still remain.
And, and!! I think this question was asked way back on the old Beeb, us/man is made up of something like 70% water, does the moon affect us?
Gonnagle.
And how does the moon affect us? I assume you are referring to the effect on open areas of sea water of the moon's gravitational force.
Just how - at the moment of our birth - does the gravitational force exerted by the moon determine our future?
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Anyone seen the thread on 'Spooky action at a distance'..yet?!
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Anyone seen the thread on 'Spooky action at a distance'..yet?!
Yes. It's just yet another one of your woo filled wank fests where you frantically try to get your superstitious bollocks to jizz all over science.
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Hi everyone,
I guess we have to wait for Shermer to conduct more such trials and prove that astrology does have some merit.
No we don't. We already know that astrology has no merit.
the world may not even fit into our human logic. It could be completely non-logical.
Well from what we have found out about it so far, that is unlikely to be the case.
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Dear Harrowby,
The universe is governed by the laws of physics.
Is it. :o :o Physics is a man made word.
So what? "Tree" is a man made word, but that doesn't mean trees are man made.
I think this question was asked way back on the old Beeb, us/man is made up of something like 70% water, does the moon affect us?
What makes you think water is magically influenced by the Moon?
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So, if I want to know the future, who should I consult? An astrologer, or a clairvoyant, or a faker?
It's very telling I think that the real astrologers and clairvoyants aren't up in arms about all the fakers stealing their trade.
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So, if I want to know the future, who should I consult? An astrologer, or a clairvoyant, or a faker?
It's very telling I think that the real astrologers and clairvoyants aren't up in arms about all the fakers stealing their trade.
Not that it fundamentally changes the point, but is that actually fakers, or did you mean fakirs?
O.
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Dear Jeremyp,
So what? "Tree" is a man made word, but that doesn't mean trees are man made.
HELLO!!
Now! do I have a point, curse my lack of education ( I do blame mini skirts, they had a profound effect on my education ) anyway, our Sane ( he of the high intellect ) sent me a post all about ( well actually I can't remember what it was all about ) but the post reminded me that man is just a speck in the great scheme of things, long before man even walked this earth we had trees, gravity, water going downhill, my point ( I think ) did we have pyhsics :o :o
Gonnagle.
PS: This post in no way validates the sanity of the said poster.
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I agree with J P simply because he's right.
Where astrology shows and proves itself, all at the same time, to be absolute bollocks is in the case of identical twins; do I need to spell it all out, it's so obvious I shouldn't need to.
ippy
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No it's not obvious - please spell it out ... I'm happy to see it as bollocks but how do identical twins fit in?
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Dear Jeremyp,
So what? "Tree" is a man made word, but that doesn't mean trees are man made.
HELLO!!
Now! do I have a point, curse my lack of education ( I do blame mini skirts, they had a profound effect on my education ) anyway, our Sane ( he of the high intellect ) sent me a post all about ( well actually I can't remember what it was all about ) but the post reminded me that man is just a speck in the great scheme of things, long before man even walked this earth we had trees, gravity, water going downhill, my point ( I think ) did we have pyhsics :o :o
Gonnagle.
PS: This post in no way validates the sanity of the said poster.
To paraphrase jeremyp, "physics" is a man made word but that doesn't mean that physics (or the phenomena that give rise to the concept of physics) is man made.
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Dear Jeremyp,
So what? "Tree" is a man made word, but that doesn't mean trees are man made.
HELLO!!
Now! do I have a point, curse my lack of education ( I do blame mini skirts, they had a profound effect on my education ) anyway, our Sane ( he of the high intellect ) sent me a post all about ( well actually I can't remember what it was all about ) but the post reminded me that man is just a speck in the great scheme of things, long before man even walked this earth we had trees, gravity, water going downhill, my point ( I think ) did we have pyhsics :o :o
Gonnagle.
PS: This post in no way validates the sanity of the said poster.
To paraphrase jeremyp, "physics" is a man made word but that doesn't mean that physics (or the phenomena that give rise to the concept of physics) is man made.
Though in a sense it is. I don't think we know what the real laws of nature are, we've merely constructed a model that our psychology can handle.
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No it's not obvious - please spell it out ... I'm happy to see it as bollocks but how do identical twins fit in?
Oh dear, the clue is in the word, "identical", identical twins, knock knock, identical lives? Knock diddy knock knock, is anyone in?
ippy
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If you are saying that (according to astrology) they should have identical lives because they are born at the same time, then that would apply to any twins, genetic similarity having nothing to do with it.
And in any case, twins, identical or not , are not born at exactly the same time. I'd expect astrologists (I myself not being familiar with any of it) to say that their lives would follow similar courses with some differences - which would usually be a correct prediction. Also they are not the same person, whatever predictions or analysis provided, assuming it is the same, would be understood differently by each.
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And in any case, twins, identical or not , are not born at exactly the same time. I'd expect astrologists (I myself not being familiar with any of it) to say that their lives would follow similar courses with some differences - which would usually be a correct prediction.
Would it now?
Anyway, why is it the moment of birth that is important. What is the difference between "about to be born" and "just born". Astrologers are effectively claiming that some unspecified effect travels from each of the planets - unaffected by distance - through 100 miles of atmosphere and the walls of the building in which the mother is giving birth, but her uterus is possessed of some magical property that stops this influence from getting to the baby until after it is born.
Honestly, astrology is bollocks.
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And in any case, twins, identical or not , are not born at exactly the same time. I'd expect astrologists (I myself not being familiar with any of it) to say that their lives would follow similar courses with some differences - which would usually be a correct prediction.
Would it now?
Anyway, why is it the moment of birth that is important. What is the difference between "about to be born" and "just born". Astrologers are effectively claiming that some unspecified effect travels from each of the planets - unaffected by distance - through 100 miles of atmosphere and the walls of the building in which the mother is giving birth, but her uterus is possessed of some magical property that stops this influence from getting to the baby until after it is born.
Honestly, astrology is bollocks.
What about if it's a rainy day J P, I noticed you didn't have anything to say about that.
ippy
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And in any case, twins, identical or not , are not born at exactly the same time. I'd expect astrologists (I myself not being familiar with any of it) to say that their lives would follow similar courses with some differences - which would usually be a correct prediction.
Would it now?
Anyway, why is it the moment of birth that is important. What is the difference between "about to be born" and "just born". Astrologers are effectively claiming that some unspecified effect travels from each of the planets - unaffected by distance - through 100 miles of atmosphere and the walls of the building in which the mother is giving birth, but her uterus is possessed of some magical property that stops this influence from getting to the baby until after it is born.
Honestly, astrology is bollocks.
Of-course it is. But it's wrong to think that astrologers and their ilk are stupid. They have made a good living from the general public for thousands of years. From analysis of chicken innards to receiving communications from aliens in far star systems, only the idiots would provide predictions or propose a system or mechanisms that are properly testable. In the same way as for religion, to look into why people still follow them you need to look to the psychology of the followers, not the daft psychical explanations.
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Dear Giant,
Though in a sense it is. I don't think we know what the real laws of nature are, we've merely constructed a model that our psychology can handle.
Course it is, Godidit, and we in our feeble attempts to explain why or how use physics.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Giant,
Though in a sense it is. I don't think we know what the real laws of nature are, we've merely constructed a model that our psychology can handle.
Course it is, Godidit, and we in our feeble attempts to explain why or how use physics.
Gonnagle.
Course it is, Godidit, and we in our feeble attempts to explain why or how use physics.
I hope I'm not asking too much, Gonners, but could you re-state this using English?
I recall, many years ago, hearing someone make a convincing case for God being the laws of physics.
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Dear Giant,
Though in a sense it is. I don't think we know what the real laws of nature are, we've merely constructed a model that our psychology can handle.
Course it is, Godidit, and we in our feeble attempts to explain why or how use physics.
Gonnagle.
I really don't think we need to denigrate our attempts to understand the Universe.
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Dear Jeremyp,
I really don't think we need to denigrate our attempts to understand the Universe.
Course not, we are all knowing, bit like God.
Gonnagle ( one step away from Sainthood )
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Dear Jeremyp,
I really don't think we need to denigrate our attempts to understand the Universe.
Course not, we are all knowing, bit like God.
Nor do we need a false dichotomy. There is a continuum between feeble and all knowing.
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Hi everyone,
I agree that astrology is not always 100% reliable because lot depends on interpretation, time of birth recorded and some other individual factors. But then...we know of many doctors who make wrong diagnosis even with all modern equipment available!
As I have said earlier...all science is not physics and many branches of science are not exact or precise sciences....like biology, psychology etc. Astrology is also one such. Not believing in it is fine...there is no compulsion to believe in anything.... you don't even need to believe in modern medicine for that matter...(as some people tend to say!).
Lot depends on interpretation. Just to give an example...one person is said to have a horoscope very similar to Nehru (India's first PM). His kin were very proud and expected him to become the PM or something. But they found that he lost his wife early, had to give up his family wealth, had only one daughter who also got widowed early, got cheated by people he believed in and so on. All things that Nehru went through!
While on this subject....I also want to mention here about another form of predictions available in some places in India...called the Nadi Jyotish. This is not strictly astrology (about position of planets). It is about ones entire life details recorded in ancient palm leaves.
Some traditional families in certain small towns in South India have with them ancient palm leaves written centuries ago in ancient tamil. If you visit the person he will take your thumb impression and find the suitable palm leaf. He will read out to you what is written in the leaf and even record it on a CD. The reading will contain all details about you, you life, future and even time and manner of death. He will thereafter give the palm leaf to you since it is of no use to him.
I have not tried it myself...but you will find hundreds of westerners making a beeline for such readings in recent years. Many of them find it uncanny and almost miraculous.
The obvious question is...are all 7 billion peoples lives recorded? No! There are only a few thousand leaves available....but it is said that anyone destined to visit and ask for their palm leaf ...their leaf will be available.
Just for information. Have fun! :D
Anyway, I hope Shermer keeps up the good work!
Cheers.
Sriram
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Hi everyone,
I agree that astrology is not always 100% reliable
A stopped clock is right twice a day. That's the kind of reliability that astrology has.
because lot depends on interpretation, time of birth recorded and some other individual factors.
The only factors that matter are that astrology is bollocks.
I notice you haven't answered any of my previous questions about how it works. Here's two of them, I hope you will give them some thought.
1. What is so special about passing through the birth canal? Does the mother's womb have some protective layer that makes babies immune to the effects of the planets while inside?
2. Does the influence of the planets obey the inverse square law? If so, why doesn't the Earth drown out the effects of everything else? If not, why don't the effects of all the other planets in the galaxy drown out our own solar system?
Here's a new one for you:
3. If it is the Moon's position that counts, why don't horoscopes cycle on a 25 hour basis?
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Jeremyp,
I have already said that we cannot reason it out. Just as we can't reason out parallel universes existing just inches from us...seven dimensions wrapped around a String....'time' moving backwards....or bodies interacting instantaneously across billions of miles....so also we cannot reason out astrology.
I have already said all this, for heaven's sake.....jeremyp!
Maybe the influence is through the biofield. Maybe everything in the universe has a 'energy field' of some kind that interacts and influences everything else.
We can only try to conduct trials like Shermer has and see if future events and... more importantly...past events and personal characteristics... are correctly told from the horoscope. Future events can sometimes be wrongly predicted but past events and personal characteristics are often correct. Necessary checks and controls can be introduced while testing.
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Hi everyone,
I agree that astrology is not always 100% reliable because lot depends on interpretation, time of birth recorded and some other individual factors. But then...we know of many doctors who make wrong diagnosis even with all modern equipment available!
As I have said earlier...all science is not physics and many branches of science are not exact or precise sciences....like biology, psychology etc. Astrology is also one such. Not believing in it is fine...there is no compulsion to believe in anything.... you don't even need to believe in modern medicine for that matter...(as some people tend to say!).
Lot depends on interpretation. Just to give an example...one person is said to have a horoscope very similar to Nehru (India's first PM). His kin were very proud and expected him to become the PM or something. But they found that he lost his wife early, had to give up his family wealth, had only one daughter who also got widowed early, got cheated by people he believed in and so on. All things that Nehru went through!
While on this subject....I also want to mention here about another form of predictions available in some places in India...called the Nadi Jyotish. This is not strictly astrology (about position of planets). It is about ones entire life details recorded in ancient palm leaves.
Some traditional families in certain small towns in South India have with them ancient palm leaves written centuries ago in ancient tamil. If you visit the person he will take your thumb impression and find the suitable palm leaf. He will read out to you what is written in the leaf and even record it on a CD. The reading will contain all details about you, you life, future and even time and manner of death. He will thereafter give the palm leaf to you since it is of no use to him.
I have not tried it myself...but you will find hundreds of westerners making a beeline for such readings in recent years. Many of them find it uncanny and almost miraculous.
The obvious question is...are all 7 billion peoples lives recorded? No! There are only a few thousand leaves available....but it is said that anyone destined to visit and ask for their palm leaf ...their leaf will be available.
Just for information. Have fun! :D
Anyway, I hope Shermer keeps up the good work!
Cheers.
Sriram
An old army saying that will stand forever "Bullshit baffles brains".
Of course lots of westerners go for that stuff, look at how many westerners are still hold religious beliefs, there will always be gullible people, it looks like gullibility's a built in part of the human brain we'll have to live with.
I would think being an astrologer handing any old bollocks to the gullible has to be lucrative and I don't blame them for taking it up and hope they don't start to believe in the rubbish they're handing out.
ippy
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Jeremyp,
I have already said that we cannot reason it out.
You mean you can't reason it out. I can, and the reasoning lead me to the inevitable conclusion that it is bollocks.
I have already said all this, for heaven's sake.....jeremyp!
And I keep saying that astrology is bollocks, clearly with good reason unlike you.
Maybe the influence is through the biofield. Maybe everything in the universe has a 'energy field' of some kind that interacts and influences everything else.
If that is the case, then the relative positions of nearby astronomical bodies would have little effect.
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Lot depends on interpretation. Just to give an example...one person is said to have a horoscope very similar to Nehru (India's first PM). His kin were very proud and expected him to become the PM or something. But they found that he lost his wife early, had to give up his family wealth, had only one daughter who also got widowed early, got cheated by people he believed in and so on. All things that Nehru went through!
And if the astrologer had had a clerical mixup and sent the horoscope to the wrong person, that person also would have found things in common with Nehru.
This is often done of course. Why bother to write a new heap of bullshit if you can just recycle a heap you wrote 5 years ago. They're all just as accurate whoever you apply them to.
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I believe that (Godwin's Law alert) Hitler was a great believer in astrology. His horoscopes served him very well ...
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Didn't Nancy Reagan have an astrologer?
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I really don't think we need to denigrate our attempts to understand the Universe.
Considering we only have a lump of meat to do it with, I don't think we need be ashamed of not being up to it.
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I really don't think we need to denigrate our attempts to understand the Universe.
Considering we only have a lump of meat to do it with, I don't think we need be ashamed of not being up to it.
We seem to be pretty much up to it....
... well some of us are.
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Jeremyp,
I have already said that we cannot reason it out. Just as we can't reason out parallel universes existing just inches from us...seven dimensions wrapped around a String....'time' moving backwards....or bodies interacting instantaneously across billions of miles....so also we cannot reason out astrology.
I have already said all this, for heaven's sake.....jeremyp!
Maybe the influence is through the biofield. Maybe everything in the universe has a 'energy field' of some kind that interacts and influences everything else.
We can only try to conduct trials like Shermer has and see if future events and... more importantly...past events and personal characteristics... are correctly told from the horoscope. Future events can sometimes be wrongly predicted but past events and personal characteristics are often correct. Necessary checks and controls can be introduced while testing.
We don't need to reason it out. Astrology doesn't work - we don't need to know what the theoretical mechanisms of it are, because they actually fail to achieve anything.
When studied, astrological predictions proved to be no more nor less accurate than randomly assigning predictions to people. Horoscopes from popular journals proved to be equally applicable to people of any 'star sign', and 'personalised' predictions were in such general language that their 'hit rate' was equally as high when given to random people as it was when given to the people for whom it was intended.
It doesn't matter that 'no-one knows how it works' because we already know it doesn't work.
O.
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Well...that's not what one would conclude from the Shermer video in the OP.
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I agree that astrology is not always 100% reliable
...
No, it is 100% unreliable
If some characteristics of a person appear to be correct, they are simply coincidentally so.
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Well...that's not what one would conclude from the Shermer video in the OP.
Yes it is. You just have to ask yourself the right question. The question is, how could the same results be achieved without doing any astrology?
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Well...that's not what one would conclude from the Shermer video in the OP.
Sriram have you considered, palmistry, phrenology, reading the tea leaves at the bottom of your cup, tarot and what if they don't agree?
Full moon tonight, I've found the golfing shoes have a better grip when I'm up on the roof howling, look forward to seeing you.
ippy