Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Rhiannon on November 07, 2015, 02:45:49 PM
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Recently PD and I were discussing the collection that takes place as part of a church service. When this takes place it is blessed at the altar as an offering. Flowers on an altar are an offering - I think pretty much every tradition has this in some form. In pagan ritual cakes and ale is shared and some left as an offering. I take a pocketful of bird seed out when I walk and scatter it as an offering.
Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
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Recently PD and I were discussing the collection that takes place as part of a church service. When this takes place it is blessed at the altar as an offering. Flowers on an altar are an offering - I think pretty much every tradition has this in some form. In pagan ritual cakes and ale is shared and some left as an offering. I take a pocketful of bird seed out when I walk and scatter it as an offering.
Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
In addition to the offerings of cake and ale to the Coven's guardian deities, our Coven leaves an offering of salt and honey to the 'spirits of place'.
Our Covenstead is on hill where once stood a monastery whose Abbot was murdered and there is also a cemetary for the monks of the monastery and the spirits of these monks are, at the beginning of ritual, offered salt and honey as thanks for them allowing us to hold our rituals without interference.
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That's rather nice. :)
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That's rather nice. :)
Thank you.
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
I believe so. Take your example of bird seed - whatever you call it and whoever does it for whatever reason, that's a small, compassionate act of kindness that does good to giver and receiver alike. It's a practical act of concrete good for the birds - the sort of act that a non-theist is more likely to engage in, offerings to gods being a little more ... well, less immediately obviously appreciated, shall we say.
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
I believe so. Take your example of bird seed - whatever you call it and whoever does it for whatever reason, that's a small, compassionate act of kindness that does good to giver and receiver alike. It's a practical act of concrete good for the birds - the sort of act that a non-theist is more likely to engage in, offerings to gods being a little more ... well, less immediately obviously appreciated, shall we say.
When it is pissing down with rain twenty minutes before ritual and bright sunshine two minutes before and during ritual . . .
And our Coven are not fair-weather Pagans - in the last twelve years we have only cancelled two rituals and those only because for one cars couldn't get up the hill even with snow chains and the other because Avebury was completely cut off by snow.
Not a bad record even if I do say so myself.
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Recently PD and I were discussing the collection that takes place as part of a church service. When this takes place it is blessed at the altar as an offering.
Never ever attended a church where the offering is 'blessed', Rhi. Thanked for and the givers blessed, perhaps; prayer that the leaders responsible for the money's use would use it wisely, definitely. The money blessed, no.
Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
I suppose it depends on what you understand the giving of offerings to be. Is it some sort of tax, or is it some sort of sign of gratitude. I recently gave my wife an 'offering' of a sizeable bunch of flowers to show my gratitude for her support and care for me over the last couple of weeks.
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It's a practical act of concrete good for the birds - the sort of act that a non-theist is more likely to engage in, offerings to gods being a little more ... well, less immediately obviously appreciated, shall we say.
I'd disagree, Shaker: money that is given within our offering for specific parts of our church's ministry is often used within hours - to help a homeless person raise a bond for accommodation; to provide a poor family with food from our food bank; to provide someone with much-needed counselling - be that psychological or regarding debt-relief or substance-abuse advice.
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
Religion was providing welfare and practical help years before Governments or secular societies. in our own secular society welfare is frowned on.
I would like to see an antitheist on this site compose a letter announcing that chaplain services are to be withdrawn and replaced by counsellors working on Dawkinsian principles........or don't you have the guts?
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
I believe so. Take your example of bird seed - whatever you call it and whoever does it for whatever reason, that's a small, compassionate act of kindness that does good to giver and receiver alike. It's a practical act of concrete good for the birds - the sort of act that a non-theist is more likely to engage in, offerings to gods being a little more ... well, less immediately obviously appreciated, shall we say.
Yes, it's an act of gratitude. It's not necessary to be grateful to anything, just for it.
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
Religion was providing welfare and practical help years before Governments or secular societies.
Just not very widely or well.
in our own secular society welfare is frowned on.
By Tories, certainly, but that's the kind of people they are and always have been.
I would like to see an antitheist on this site compose a letter announcing that chaplain services are to be withdrawn and replaced by counsellors working on Dawkinsian principles........or don't you have the guts?
I would like you to get some sort of help for your condition but that's not going to happen either.
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
Religion was providing welfare and practical help years before Governments or secular societies.
Just not very widely or well.
in our own secular society welfare is frowned on.
By Tories, certainly, but that's the kind of people they are and always have been.
I would like to see an antitheist on this site compose a letter announcing that chaplain services are to be withdrawn and replaced by counsellors working on Dawkinsian principles........or don't you have the guts?
I would like you to get some sort of help for your condition but that's not going to happen either.
That's not true, Shaker. Whatever it's failings or shortcomings, the Church, and Church people, have always done huge amounts for the poor and needy.
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That's not true, Shaker. Whatever it's failings or shortcomings, the Church, and Church people, have always done huge amounts for the poor and needy.
I'm not quibbling about that in the least; I meant not on the same scale as any welfare state as we know it, since no church has the resources, the organisational and management skills, the bureaucracy as any government.
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I don't know if it is a failing of paganism or not, that we don't have any resources at our disposal to organise anything. PD was saying recently that he can't understand why charities have to advertise their religion; maybe it's better that pagans just give to and work through secular organisations.
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.
As a Pagan I disagree.
We have nothing to fear from our deities. They do not threaten us with any kind of punishment for anything we do,
The only "punishment" that most pagans recognise is karma and that is not inflicted by the deities.
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.
As a Pagan I disagree.
We have nothing to fear from our deities. They do not threaten us with any kind of punishment for anything we do,
The only "punishment" that most pagans recognise is karma and that is not inflicted by the deities.
But atheists say that God is an invention. So why invent something that may punish you? Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.
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But atheists say that God is an invention. So why invent something that may punish you? Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.
Human psychology is vastly more complex, tortuous and mysterious than you seem willing to acknowledge. What if a punitive deity is in fact an externalisation of what Freud called the supergo, the conscience?
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But atheists say that God is an invention. So why invent something that may punish you? Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.
Human psychology is vastly more complex, tortuous and mysterious than you seem willing to acknowledge. What if a punitive deity is in fact an externalisation of what Freud called the supergo, the conscience?
Freud was over-rated. And he got that bit badly wrong, as with much of what he said: see,
io9.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost- 1055800815
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
Religion was providing welfare and practical help years before Governments or secular societies.
Just not very widely or well.
Sorry, Shaker - regarding width of provision, you can't get much wider than the ruling class at one end and the poorest of the poor at the other. As for the issue of quality, not only did they provide terminal care, they provided a lot of care based on Islamic medical principles and other herbal treatments some of which remain in use today. It was also often the religious bodies who specialised in developing medical practice.
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But atheists say that God is an invention. So why invent something that may punish you? Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.
Human psychology is vastly more complex, tortuous and mysterious than you seem willing to acknowledge. What if a punitive deity is in fact an externalisation of what Freud called the supergo, the conscience?
Freud was over-rated. And he got that bit badly wrong, as with much of what he said: see,
io9.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost- 1055800815
So there's no such thing as conscience?
Dead link, by the way.
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But atheists say that God is an invention. So why invent something that may punish you? Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.
Human psychology is vastly more complex, tortuous and mysterious than you seem willing to acknowledge. What if a punitive deity is in fact an externalisation of what Freud called the supergo, the conscience?
Freud was over-rated. And he got that bit badly wrong, as with much of what he said: see,
io9.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost- 1055800815
So there's no such thing as conscience?
Read the link. But I did say, "much" of what he said was wrong.
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Read the link.
I would have done if it had worked.
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
Precisely, Shaker, because God is not a remote entity but a being who is intimately involved in everyday life. So, monies in the offering are a means of thanking God for his generosity to us in so many ways - life, health, education, forgiveness, roof over one's head, etc., and given so that those blessings can be shared with others who don't necessarily share in those in the same way as we do. It isn't either/or; its both/and.
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
Precisely, Shaker, because God is not a remote entity but a being who is intimately involved in everyday life.
Evidence needed.
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Is there something more nuanced going on widen we regard something as an offering?
I mean, when does a donation become an offering? My initial thought is that it is more about the effect on the giver if it's an offering. Perhaps a token gesture of sacrifice / giving, for no other reason than it is good practice?
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Yes, I agree - a donation can be an offering, but not necessarily so, and there are other ways to offer.
For the big festivals at the parish church in my village, the women - yes, it is still the women - turn out en masse and clean, scrub and polish, and fill the church with flowers. That is an offering.
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Yes, I agree - a donation can be an offering, but not necessarily so, and there are other ways to offer.
For the big festivals at the parish church in my village, the women - yes, it is still the women - turn out en masse and clean, scrub and polish, and fill the church with flowers. That is an offering.
That's superb; and when they ought to be at home, in the kitchen. Just joking!! ;)
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
Precisely, Shaker, because God is not a remote entity but a being who is intimately involved in everyday life. So, monies in the offering are a means of thanking God for his generosity to us in so many ways - life, health, education, forgiveness, roof over one's head, etc., and given so that those blessings can be shared with others who don't necessarily share in those in the same way as we do. It isn't either/or; its both/and.
You're off with the never has been and very doubtful it ever will be, again, twist that how you like Hope, you do know exactly what is meant.
ippy
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So, monies in the offering are a means of thanking God for his generosity to us in so many ways - life, health, education, forgiveness, roof over one's head
God never gave me any of those thing. Why should I thank him?
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God never gave me any of those thing. ...
Is your evidence for this statement incontovertible?
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You're off with the never has been and very doubtful it ever will be, again, twist that how you like Hope, you do know exactly what is meant.
ippy
I'm learning from you, ippy
and of course I 'know exactly what is meant', which is why I disagreed with it and gave my understanding.
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God never gave me any of those thing. ...
Is your evidence for this statement incontovertible?
Of course it is.
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One of the simplest offerings, that actually works, is spreading manure around the plants you want to flourish and looking after them.
It's a sort of offering :)
As is tending any garden, even time can be an offering.
I found this link and thought it interesting. :)
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usoh&c=earth&id=14028
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One of the simplest offerings, that actually works, is spreading manure around the plants you want to flourish and looking after them.
Exactly - my uncle used to put tons of well-rotted manure on his rhubarb.
Which I always found peculiar, as I prefer custard.
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One of the simplest offerings, that actually works, is spreading manure around the plants you want to flourish and looking after them.
Exactly - my uncle used to put tons of well-rotted manure on his rhubarb.
Which I always found peculiar, as I prefer custard.
I like this type of comment.
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One of the simplest offerings, that actually works, is spreading manure around the plants you want to flourish and looking after them.
Exactly - my uncle used to put tons of well-rotted manure on his rhubarb.
Which I always found peculiar, as I prefer custard.
:P :-*
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.
As a Pagan I disagree.
We have nothing to fear from our deities. They do not threaten us with any kind of punishment for anything we do,
The only "punishment" that most pagans recognise is karma and that is not inflicted by the deities.
I'm not sure how you pagans see or understand your gods?
Don't they or haven't they set how things will be in this universe thereby setting the tone in which you function? Therefore, they govern how things proceed and as such what you have to deal with in your life or existence in this world and the next, or whatever way you pagans perceive things.
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One of the simplest offerings, that actually works, is spreading manure around the plants you want to flourish and looking after them.
It's a sort of offering :)
As is tending any garden, even time can be an offering.
I found this link and thought it interesting. :)
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usoh&c=earth&id=14028
Rose, I have a hell of a job saying manure.
ippy
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Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.
Precisely, Shaker, because God is not a remote entity but a being who is intimately involved in everyday life. So, monies in the offering are a means of thanking God for his generosity to us in so many ways - life, health, education, forgiveness, roof over one's head, etc., and given so that those blessings can be shared with others who don't necessarily share in those in the same way as we do. It isn't either/or; its both/and.
So what about those who don't have these things, does God hate them?
So your equation is if you are rich then God loves you.
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You're off with the never has been and very doubtful it ever will be, again, twist that how you like Hope, you do know exactly what is meant.
ippy
I'm learning from you, ippy
and of course I 'know exactly what is meant', which is why I disagreed with it and gave my understanding.
Nothing so much about your understanding, as you know you were begging for proof/evidence that there isn't a he, she or it magic maker in the sky, now thats for you to establish that there is; well neither you nor anyone else has managed to prove this whatever it is that you refer to as god actually exists, the long, long wait.
ippy
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.
As a Pagan I disagree.
We have nothing to fear from our deities. They do not threaten us with any kind of punishment for anything we do,
The only "punishment" that most pagans recognise is karma and that is not inflicted by the deities.
I'm not sure how you pagans see or understand your gods?
Don't they or haven't they set how things will be in this universe thereby setting the tone in which you function? Therefore, they govern how things proceed and as such what you have to deal with in your life or existence in this world and the next, or whatever way you pagans perceive things.
How have they set how things will be in this universe?
I have read nothing to show that they have done so. The deities of my Pagan path are those who have an affinity to the various natural things in the world, animals, weather, day and night etc.
I do not, and do not know any Pagan who does, think or believe that the Pagan deities created this world or the universe. Who did? I haven't a clue, but what I do know is that I find the idea of the whole kit and caboodle being created in six days by one entity highly unlikely.
OK - my beliefs have been dismissed as simplistic, they may well be, but they are far more logical to me than those of Christianity.
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Nothing so much about your understanding, as you know you were begging for proof/evidence that there isn't a he, she or it magic maker in the sky, now thats for you to establish that there is; well neither you nor anyone else has managed to prove this whatever it is that you refer to as god actually exists, the long, long wait.
ippy
Begging for it because so many people, yourself included, have made categorical assertions to that effect, and wanted to know whether they had any evidence to support those assertions. If they haven't, it seems a bit hypocritical of them, in view of the accusations they lay against some here.
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Nothing so much about your understanding, as you know you were begging for proof/evidence that there isn't a he, she or it magic maker in the sky, now thats for you to establish that there is; well neither you nor anyone else has managed to prove this whatever it is that you refer to as god actually exists, the long, long wait.
ippy
Begging for it because so many people, yourself included, have made categorical assertions to that effect, and wanted to know whether they had any evidence to support those assertions. If they haven't, it seems a bit hypocritical of them, in view of the accusations they lay against some here.
Like most sensible people I don't believe in the existance of Unicorns, nor do I expect Unicornists to expect me to prove to them that Unicorns do not in fact exist nor would there be any point spending precious time trying to do so and unfortunatly for Unicornists, in addition to that it's a fact that there is no viable evidence to be found anywhere that would prove that Unicorns do exist.
As well as the above wouldn't you expect Hope? If someone, anyone was to find some completley incontrovertable evidence of their existance it would be one of the most spectacular news events ever; now since this has never happened nor is it likely, it's pretty safe to say that there is no such thing as a Unicorn, ditto religions.
ippy
Substitute any religion of your choice Hope, for Unicorns, as above.
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
I didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
I didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
Will you never grow out of your infantile addiction to silly talk of magic and the like. It is so very hackneyed. Do try harder!
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
I didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
Will you never grow out of your infantile addiction to silly talk of magic and the like. It is so very hackneyed. Do try harder!
You haven't B A, so why should I?
ippy
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
I didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
Will you never grow out of your infantile addiction to silly talk of magic and the like. It is so very hackneyed. Do try harder!
You haven't B A, so why should I?
ippy
And please quote any post I have ever spoken in terms of unicorns and fairies and magic-makers, etc.
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
I didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
Will you never grow out of your infantile addiction to silly talk of magic and the like. It is so very hackneyed. Do try harder!
You haven't B A, so why should I?
ippy
And please quote any post I have ever spoken in terms of unicorns and fairies and magic-makers, etc.
You talk about god, jesus, coming back from the dead, walking on water as though they are real? what's the difference?
There's no more evidence for one than the other.
Mind you, Star Trek, well?
ippy
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
ill you never grow out of your infantile addiction to silly talk of magic and the like. It is so very hackneyed. Do try harder!
You haven't B A, so why should I?
ippy
And please quote any post I have ever spoken in terms of unicorns and fairies and magic-makers, etc.
You talk about god, jesus, coming back from the dead, walking on water as though they are real? what's the difference?
There's no more evidence for one than the other.
Mind you, Star Trek, well?
ippy
Ippy, your post is pathetic! And "Jesus" is a proper noun, and requires a capital letter.
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
I didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
Will you never grow out of your infantile addiction to silly talk of magic and the like. It is so very hackneyed. Do try harder!
You haven't B A, so why should I?
ippy
And please quote any post I have ever spoken in terms of unicorns and fairies and magic-makers, etc.
You talk about god, jesus, coming back from the dead, walking on water as though they are real? what's the difference?
There's no more evidence for one than the other.
Mind you, Star Trek, well?
ippy
Ippy, your post is pathetic!
So unlike Hope you've come up with some evidence that could support your outlandish religious beliefs then?
ippy
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.
As a Pagan I disagree.
We have nothing to fear from our deities. They do not threaten us with any kind of punishment for anything we do,
The only "punishment" that most pagans recognise is karma and that is not inflicted by the deities.
I'm not sure how you pagans see or understand your gods?
Don't they or haven't they set how things will be in this universe thereby setting the tone in which you function? Therefore, they govern how things proceed and as such what you have to deal with in your life or existence in this world and the next, or whatever way you pagans perceive things.
How have they set how things will be in this universe?
I have read nothing to show that they have done so. The deities of my Pagan path are those who have an affinity to the various natural things in the world, animals, weather, day and night etc.
I do not, and do not know any Pagan who does, think or believe that the Pagan deities created this world or the universe. Who did? I haven't a clue, but what I do know is that I find the idea of the whole kit and caboodle being created in six days by one entity highly unlikely.
OK - my beliefs have been dismissed as simplistic, they may well be, but they are far more logical to me than those of Christianity.
Highlighted line : That just sounds like psychological projection. It says more about you than about the bigger cosmological picture, what deities could be or are, and the meaning of life.
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Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?
No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.
As a Pagan I disagree.
We have nothing to fear from our deities. They do not threaten us with any kind of punishment for anything we do,
The only "punishment" that most pagans recognise is karma and that is not inflicted by the deities.
I'm not sure how you pagans see or understand your gods?
Don't they or haven't they set how things will be in this universe thereby setting the tone in which you function? Therefore, they govern how things proceed and as such what you have to deal with in your life or existence in this world and the next, or whatever way you pagans perceive things.
How have they set how things will be in this universe?
I have read nothing to show that they have done so. The deities of my Pagan path are those who have an affinity to the various natural things in the world, animals, weather, day and night etc.
I do not, and do not know any Pagan who does, think or believe that the Pagan deities created this world or the universe. Who did? I haven't a clue, but what I do know is that I find the idea of the whole kit and caboodle being created in six days by one entity highly unlikely.
OK - my beliefs have been dismissed as simplistic, they may well be, but they are far more logical to me than those of Christianity.
Highlighted line : That just sounds like psychological projection. It says more about you than about the bigger cosmological picture, what deities could be or are, and the meaning of life.
Don't tell me! I only follow what the Celts and Greeks and Romans saw as the basis for their deities.
I have no interest in the ins and outs, rights and wrongs, that anyone else sees in my beliefs because they are just that MY beliefs.
Disect them any way you like, put whatever labels you care to upon them, dismiss them, deny them, insult them, whatever!
You asked me question and I answered it - if you are going to turn it into some kind of deep philosophical discussion or whatever go ahead - for me it will change nothing. I make no claims for my beliefs that I expect anyone else to accept.
I am not eiither christiam or muslim - I do not work the way that they do.
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So unlike Hope you've come up with some evidence that could support your outlandish religious beliefs then?
The evidence is plentiful, it's just that you are so blinkered and closed-minded that you cannot appreciate it.
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
I didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
He's starting in on the Fairies now! FFS Ippy keep your small-minded bigotry to yourself. What did the Fairies ever do to you?! Nothing, so why don't you just leave them alone?
sheesh
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Hope makes claims for God that aren't made for unicorns.
Tbh I wouldn't have let my girls read books about Hope's god, they'd have got some very funny ideas about parenting. They liked the unicorn ones though.
I didn't intend any offence to Unicorns or Unicornists.
I don't know that much about Unicorns but amongst the other things he claims, he persistently requests for proof of the existence of his god idea as well, I'm only trying to point out to him the futile nature of these requests of his, I just happened to use Unicorns, I could just as well have chosen Fairies.
I can't make out why he isn't receiving, it never sinks in, well it hasn't yet.
The last post of his that I was trying to reply to, is telling me I'm making assertions, if that's so where and when was this proof of the existence of his god idea announced? I must have missed it.
ippy
If I had chosen Star Trek would that have been Treckrilidge?
He's starting in on the Fairies now! FFS Ippy keep your small-minded bigotry to yourself. What did the Fairies ever do to you?! Nothing, so why don't you just leave them alone?
sheesh
In Floo's defence (unusual for me) it was not he who brought up fairies; it follows on for another interminable argument that stated that there was no more proof for the christian god than there was for fairies and all the arguments put up by Hope and Sassy and others as proofs of the existence of their god were equally applicable to fairies and unicorns.
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Which is fine except unicorns and fairies aren't supposed to have created the world.
Comparison with other gods would be more appropriate.
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Which is fine except unicorns and fairies aren't supposed to have created the world.
Comparison with other gods would be more appropriate.
"Supposed!"
There is no PROOF that they didn't!
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Which is fine except unicorns and fairies aren't supposed to have created the world.
Comparison with other gods would be more appropriate.
"Supposed!"
There is no PROOF that they didn't!
You've been around Hope too long - that's his standard shtick.
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No, I've read the books and they clearly say that unicorns can do things with Rose quartz and heal with their shiny horns. Nothing about creating the world.
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I saw a documentary once where Tom Cruise had to save a unicorns life... I seem to remember unicorns having some sort of power over light and darkness, in a literal and supernatural sense. I can't quite remember what the conclusions were but Tim Curry was angry about it.
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That's heresy.
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I saw a documentary once where Tom Cruise had to save a unicorns life... I seem to remember unicorns having some sort of power over light and darkness, in a literal and supernatural sense. I can't quite remember what the conclusions were but Tim Curry was angry about it.
The film was called "Legend" - Tim Curry as Darkness! 1980 something I think! can't be bothered to Google it, but it was before TC's attachment to Scientology!
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Obviously matty isn't a real witch. Just google the wiccan creation story or the lady of infinite love.
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Obviously matty isn't a real witch. Just google the wiccan creation story or the lady of infinite love.
You wouldn't know a real witch is she crashed her besom into you!
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Sure I do dear matty.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fq5lwRF-KGQ/T3sxUo4aQ_I/AAAAAAAAAkk/stwiKL9j144/s1600/funny-photos-1.jpg
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I could just do with a good besom: the number of leaves round here is terrible!
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Sure I do dear matty.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fq5lwRF-KGQ/T3sxUo4aQ_I/AAAAAAAAAkk/stwiKL9j144/s1600/funny-photos-1.jpg
If you think that a real witch looks like that you are sillier than even I thought you were.