Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Alan Burns on November 08, 2015, 11:13:29 PM
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A few weeks ago my wife and I were hosting a meal with two other Christian couples. A piece of Bible text we discussed was the quote from Jesus that we all have Angels in heaven. Our friend Helen seemed very moved by this reading, saying she had never come across it before.
Helen came up to us today after Mass to share something she had kept secret for twenty years. It was twenty years ago when she was diagnosed with Multiple-Sclerosis, and she recalled walking down Stockton High Street in bright sunshine thinking about the warning she had just been given that her sight might soon fail due to MS. She was looking at all the wonderful colours in the sunshine thinking soon she may never see them again in such vivid glory.
She was passing someone doing a street collection, and as she put her hand out to give a donation, the person took hold of her arm and said just one sentence: "Don't worry, your sight will never fail". Helen was so frightened by this she walked quickly away, but then retraced her steps to try to speak to this person, but when she looked the person was gone.
Helen now needs to walk with crutches due to the MS, but her sight is still intact twenty years later. Was it an angel sent to reassure her?
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Almost certainly not.
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Almost certainly not.
::)
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As I have mentioned before I had what can only have been a dream, which I had when I was a very young child. I was one of the angels in heaven, but was instructed by the deity to do a stint on earth, so here I am! ;D ;D ;D
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She was passing someone doing a street collection, and as she put her hand out to give a donation, the person took hold of her arm and said just one sentence: "Don't worry, your sight will never fail". Helen was so frightened by this she walked quickly away, but then retraced her steps to try to speak to this person, but when she looked the person was gone.
Helen now needs to walk with crutches due to the MS, but her sight is still intact twenty years later. Was it an angel sent to reassure her?
Oh dear.
We really must get used to the fact that memory is not veridical. Much of what we "remember" is a construction combining incidents which did happen with information from other sources affected by motivations and opinions.
Memories are not passive recollections stored in mental filing cabinets. They are constantly being edited, integrated with new information and experiences, revised by conflicting information and so forth. There is a mass of research findings in psychology and neuroscience about the nature and reliability of memory.
In your friend's case she may have "invented" this memory or it may be the result of incidents which really happened but which were affected by her state of mind at the time: a small set of events were perceived by her - because of her personal concerns and hopes - as being favourable in their outcome. And the interpretations she placed on them were influenced by her own motives and hopes.
However, it is real to her. But that is the nature of memory...
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I'm glad your friend finds comfort in this.
And I also wonder which charity the collection was for.
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I'm glad your friend finds comfort in this.
And I also wonder which charity the collection was for.
Gullibles Anonymous! ;D
Alan Burns will have fun with this experience of mine.
When I was 11 I decided to do some fishing. Without telling my parents, I cycled to one of the bays in my home island, and clambered onto some rocks and began fishing with my home made rod and line; a safety pin as a hook! I failed to see the tide coming in leaving the rock I was on surrounded by water, with a jump of about 4ft or so to safety. I was beginning to panic, if I had fallen into the sea I would probably have drowned as the currents in that area are very strong. Suddenly a man appeared on the rock beside me, coming from apparently nowhere. Without a word he picked me up and jumped the gap. When I turned around to thank him, he had gone! I grabbed my bike and pedalled home as fast as my legs could manage it! I didn't dare tell my parents of my escapade as that would earn me another good thrashing for total stupidity! :o
To this day I still can't work out if I imagined that man had rescued me as it seems so unreal!
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I'm glad your friend finds comfort in this.
And I also wonder which charity the collection was for.
Gullibles Anonymous! ;D
Alan Burns will have fun with this experience of mine.
When I was 11 I decided to do some fishing. Without telling my parents, I cycled to one of the bays in my home island, and clambered onto some rocks and began fishing with my home made rod and line; a safety pin as a hook! I failed to see the tide coming in leaving the rock I was on surrounded by water, with a jump of about 4ft or so to safety. I was beginning to panic, if I had fallen into the sea I would probably have drowned as the currents in that area are very strong. Suddenly a man appeared on the rock beside me, coming from apparently nowhere. Without a word he picked me up and jumped the gap. When I turned around to thank him, he had gone! I grabbed my bike and pedalled home as fast as my legs could manage it! I didn't dare tell my parents of my escapade as that would earn me another good thrashing for total stupidity! :o
To this day I still can't work out if I imagined that man had rescued me as it seems so unreal!
This reminds me of when my wife and I were stranded on a sandbank off a beach in the Algarve with the tide coming in. A young man was also stranded, and we watched as he tried to wade across holding his rucsack above his head. He soon came into difficulties and to our alarm he seemed to be getting swept out to sea. Then literally out of the blue came a man in a rowing boat, rescued the young man and took us all to dry land.
I also recall the testimony of a young Christian woman who became lost in a very dangerous place in the middle east - I can't remember where. She found herself alone in a no go area with a curfew in place and heard the sound of gunfire. She found a place to hide, but was terrified when a man came and took her hand. The man then guided her through the city to her destination, with no military in sight.
It would seem that angels may not have wings, but they were sent to help.
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Almost certainly not.
You said "Almost". Could this be a chink of hope? :)
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I'm glad your friend finds comfort in this.
And I also wonder which charity the collection was for.
Gullibles Anonymous! ;D
Alan Burns will have fun with this experience of mine.
When I was 11 I decided to do some fishing. Without telling my parents, I cycled to one of the bays in my home island, and clambered onto some rocks and began fishing with my home made rod and line; a safety pin as a hook! I failed to see the tide coming in leaving the rock I was on surrounded by water, with a jump of about 4ft or so to safety. I was beginning to panic, if I had fallen into the sea I would probably have drowned as the currents in that area are very strong. Suddenly a man appeared on the rock beside me, coming from apparently nowhere. Without a word he picked me up and jumped the gap. When I turned around to thank him, he had gone! I grabbed my bike and pedalled home as fast as my legs could manage it! I didn't dare tell my parents of my escapade as that would earn me another good thrashing for total stupidity! :o
To this day I still can't work out if I imagined that man had rescued me as it seems so unreal!
Floo, my point was that the person collecting could have commented about sight because they were collecting for a charity related to sight or possibly ageing. But if it brings someone comfort then why not?
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I'm glad your friend finds comfort in this.
And I also wonder which charity the collection was for.
She said it terrified her.
It is only in the last week that she has had the courage to speak about it, following our discussion implying that angels are real. She can't recall the charity, and did not see the person face to face, though she felt that the person may have been a gypsy.
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I'm glad your friend finds comfort in this.
And I also wonder which charity the collection was for.
She said it terrified her.
It is only in the last week that she has had the courage to speak about it, following our discussion implying that angels are real. She can't recall the charity, and did not see the person face to face, though she felt that the person may have been a gypsy.
She would have been in a state of high anxiety anyway so far more susceptible to a chance remark setting off a frightened reaction. Then her memory has added or changed details according to her feelings.
I'm assuming that now to believe it was an angel is comforting?
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I'm glad your friend finds comfort in this.
And I also wonder which charity the collection was for.
Gullibles Anonymous! ;D
Alan Burns will have fun with this experience of mine.
When I was 11 I decided to do some fishing. Without telling my parents, I cycled to one of the bays in my home island, and clambered onto some rocks and began fishing with my home made rod and line; a safety pin as a hook! I failed to see the tide coming in leaving the rock I was on surrounded by water, with a jump of about 4ft or so to safety. I was beginning to panic, if I had fallen into the sea I would probably have drowned as the currents in that area are very strong. Suddenly a man appeared on the rock beside me, coming from apparently nowhere. Without a word he picked me up and jumped the gap. When I turned around to thank him, he had gone! I grabbed my bike and pedalled home as fast as my legs could manage it! I didn't dare tell my parents of my escapade as that would earn me another good thrashing for total stupidity! :o
To this day I still can't work out if I imagined that man had rescued me as it seems so unreal!
This reminds me of when my wife and I were stranded on a sandbank off a beach in the Algarve with the tide coming in. A young man was also stranded, and we watched as he tried to wade across holding his rucsack above his head. He soon came into difficulties and to our alarm he seemed to be getting swept out to sea. Then literally out of the blue came a man in a rowing boat, rescued the young man and took us all to dry land.
I also recall the testimony of a young Christian woman who became lost in a very dangerous place in the middle east - I can't remember where. She found herself alone in a no go area with a curfew in place and heard the sound of gunfire. She found a place to hide, but was terrified when a man came and took her hand. The man then guided her through the city to her destination, with no military in sight.
It would seem that angels may not have wings, but they were sent to help.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm! I am sure there is a much more down to earth explanation! More often than not 'angels' don't put in an appearance when required!
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As I have mentioned before I had what can only have been a dream, which I had when I was a very young child. I was one of the angels in heaven, but was instructed by the deity to do a stint on earth, so here I am! ;D ;D ;D
Not the only "vision" you've had, eh?
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A few weeks ago my wife and I were hosting a meal with two other Christian couples. A piece of Bible text we discussed was the quote from Jesus that we all have Angels in heaven. Our friend Helen seemed very moved by this reading, saying she had never come across it before.
Helen came up to us today after Mass to share something she had kept secret for twenty years. It was twenty years ago when she was diagnosed with Multiple-Sclerosis, and she recalled walking down Stockton High Street in bright sunshine thinking about the warning she had just been given that her sight might soon fail due to MS. She was looking at all the wonderful colours in the sunshine thinking soon she may never see them again in such vivid glory.
She was passing someone doing a street collection, and as she put her hand out to give a donation, the person took hold of her arm and said just one sentence: "Don't worry, your sight will never fail". Helen was so frightened by this she walked quickly away, but then retraced her steps to try to speak to this person, but when she looked the person was gone.
Helen now needs to walk with crutches due to the MS, but her sight is still intact twenty years later. Was it an angel sent to reassure her?
Alan, are you familiar with the book 'Angels' by Hope Price? Hope, married to an Anglican vicar, spent four years in Rwanda as a missionary. When asked if angels still existed she felt called to investigate the question further. Her book holds wonderful accounts of visitations to people in all kinds of situations. Some were from the classical 'winged', brilliant with light angels and others, like your above account, appearing as everyday people.
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
It seems to be the fact that one minute the person is 'there' and the next they are not. If angels are energy, they appear to be able to manifest as matter and then revert back to energy.
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
You hear strains of Robbie Williams.
(Sorry)
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
It seems to be the fact that one minute the person is 'there' and the next they are not. If angels are energy, they appear to be able to manifest as matter and then revert back to energy.
Its a theory I suppose - how would you plan to test it?
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
It seems to be the fact that one minute the person is 'there' and the next they are not. If angels are energy, they appear to be able to manifest as matter and then revert back to energy.
Its a theory I suppose - how would you plan to test it?
Good question....
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The sad thing is that it doesn't give very real people credit for something kind or heroic.
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It seems to be the fact that one minute the person is 'there' and the next they are not.
Round our way that's known as walking away.
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I was being pulled out to sea by a current in the estuary at Rock in Cornwall. This chap in a motor boat came past, I managed to say, can you help us please, and he kept on going... definitely a very strange angel. We did manage to swim to where it was shallow enough to touch the bottom and got back safely.
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It seems to be the fact that one minute the person is 'there' and the next they are not.
Round our way that's known as walking away.
Ask Floo: she's the one to ask about apparitions!
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The sad thing is that it doesn't give very real people credit for something kind or heroic.
Indeed. You see it a lot with medical people being denied gratitude and credit for their phenomenal expertise and hard work, all the thanks going to baby Jesus instead.
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The sad thing is that it doesn't give very real people credit for something kind or heroic.
Indeed. You see it a lot with medical people being denied gratitude and credit for their phenomenal expertise and hard work, all the thanks going to baby Jesus instead.
Rubbish! I have rarely heard such unsubstantiated tripe, even from you.
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The sad thing is that it doesn't give very real people credit for something kind or heroic.
Indeed. You see it a lot with medical people being denied gratitude and credit for their phenomenal expertise and hard work, all the thanks going to baby Jesus instead.
Rubbish! I have rarely heard such unsubstantiated tripe, even from you.
You should spend more time hanging out on religious forums; I've heard it more times than I can remember. Probably more so from Americans than Britons.
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The sad thing is that it doesn't give very real people credit for something kind or heroic.
Indeed. You see it a lot with medical people being denied gratitude and credit for their phenomenal expertise and hard work, all the thanks going to baby Jesus instead.
Rubbish! I have rarely heard such unsubstantiated tripe, even from you.
You should spend more time hanging out on religious forums; I've heard it more times than I can remember. Probaly more so from Americans than Britons.
This one is enough, at the present. I'm surprised you seem to spend time on them, as you must if you can make such assertions as you just have. Another example of your strange obsession with religion, I suppose!
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This one is enough, at the present. I'm surprised you seem to spend time on them, as you must if you can make such assertions as you just have. Another example of your strange obsession with religion, I suppose!
I'm interested in why people believe weird things.
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This one is enough, at the present. I'm surprised you seem to spend time on them, as you must if you can make such assertions as you just have. Another example of your strange obsession with religion, I suppose!
I'm interested in why people believe weird things.
Interested? No, obsessed!
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Interested? No, obsessed!
No, simply interested.
Though given the amount of damage such people can do, it would pay more people to be more "obsessed," as you put it.
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Interested? No, obsessed!
No, simply interested.
Though given the amount of damage such people can do, it would pay more people to be more "obsessed," as you put it.
You're slipping, Shaky. Your posts are becoming less and less convincing.
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Interested? No, obsessed!
No, simply interested.
Though given the amount of damage such people can do, it would pay more people to be more "obsessed," as you put it.
You're slipping, Shaky. Your posts are becoming less and less convincing.
Only to you, and as somebody immune to rational argumentation, that's hardly a criticism.
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Interested? No, obsessed!
No, simply interested.
Though given the amount of damage such people can do, it would pay more people to be more "obsessed," as you put it.
You're slipping, Shaky. Your posts are becoming less and less convincing.
Only to you, and as somebody immune to rational argumentation, that's hardly a criticism.
As I said, less and less convincing!
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Ah, repetition, always a handy substitute for an original thought.
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Ah, repetition, always a handy substitute for an original thought.
Nothing wrong with repetition; not when it's the truth.
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Ah, repetition, always a handy substitute for an original thought.
Nothing wrong with repetition
Apart from the boredom and lack of originality. Sure, nothing wrong apart from that.
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Ah, repetition, always a handy substitute for an original thought.
Nothing wrong with repetition
Apart from the boredom and lack of originality. Sure, nothing wrong apart from that.
Sorry, but for you, I guess the truth hurts
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Sorry, but for you, I guess the truth hurts
You'd know better than I; you've just had to be told the truth about how most people celebrate Christmas, which doesn't include or involve Christianity in any way.
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Sorry, but for you, I guess the truth hurts
You'd know better than I; you've just had to be told the truth about how most people celebrate Christmas, which doesn't include or involve Christianity in any way.
You miss my point, still! It does not bother me in the least how they spend their sad festivals; as long as they are not hypocritical enough to pay lip service to Christian ways - as I suspect they all do.
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Suspect on what basis?
You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?
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Suspect on what basis?
You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?
Because they either admit to following religious aspects, or do not deny it - in case you haven't noticed. But then, you are probably too busy visiting various religious forums.
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Suspect on what basis?
You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?
Because they either admit to following religious aspects, or do not deny it - in case you haven't noticed. But then, you are probably too busy visiting various religious forums.
No, I haven't noticed atheists following religious aspects of Christmas. Which atheists and which religious aspects are they following? Specifically, I mean.
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This one is enough, at the present. I'm surprised you seem to spend time on them, as you must if you can make such assertions as you just have. Another example of your strange obsession with religion, I suppose!
I'm interested in why people believe weird things.
Agreed. Also in however small a way hoping that browsers on the net might read and think about what non-believers say.
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
The "angel" who rescued us in the Algarve may well have been a kind person just passing in his boat at the right time (but I have never come across a man in a rowing boat in the Algarve before or since). The inspired words of the angel in the opening post could not have come from an ordinary mortal. And the angel who rescued the young girl knew exactly what was needed, and somehow caused the military to disappear.
There are many such personal testimonies, as in the book mentioned by SweatPea, which seem to indicate that the angels posess qualities or inspired words beyond the scope of mere humans.
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I have a friend who is well known in NA circles as an 'angel teacher' - as it happens she's very popular with Catholics in Ireland. I think she's sincere, but it's utter nonsense - angels don't communicate through crystals or leave feathers as messages.
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
The "angel" who rescued us in the Algarve may well have been a kind person just passing in his boat at the right time (but I have never come across a man in a rowing boat in the Algarve before or since).
And?
The inspired words of the angel in the opening post could not have come from an ordinary mortal.
Why not?
There are many such personal testimonies, as in the book mentioned by SweatPea, which seem to indicate that the angels posess qualities or inspired words beyond the scope of mere humans.
That gives every show of being the reappearance of our old enemy, personal incredulity again. Ironically combined with a high degree of credulity.
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Almost certainly not.
You said "Almost". Could this be a chink of hope? :)
Not really its just that I do not claim absolute certainty much like I also say its almost certainly not magic pixies or leprechauns or any other mythical thing.
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Suspect on what basis?
You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?
Because they either admit to following religious aspects, or do not deny it - in case you haven't noticed. But then, you are probably too busy visiting various religious forums.
No, I haven't noticed atheists following religious aspects of Christmas. Which atheists and which religious aspects are they following? Specifically, I mean.
Never sent or received a Christmas card, or been to a carol service, or nativity, joined in with carols, or just enjoyed listening to them, given or received Christmas presents, said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc. Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.
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Suspect on what basis?
You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?
Because they either admit to following religious aspects, or do not deny it - in case you haven't noticed. But then, you are probably too busy visiting various religious forums.
No, I haven't noticed atheists following religious aspects of Christmas. Which atheists and which religious aspects are they following? Specifically, I mean.
Never sent or received a Christmas card, or been to a carol service, or nativity, joined in with carols, or just enjoyed listening to them, given or received Christmas presents, said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc. Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.
When the Church was in charge of Christmas it was thoroughly miserable. Their idea of celebrating was to have a midnight mass in an unheated church in the middle of winter.
But I expect they sent a good few people to meet their Maker.
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Suspect on what basis?
You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?
Because they either admit to following religious aspects, or do not deny it - in case you haven't noticed. But then, you are probably too busy visiting various religious forums.
No, I haven't noticed atheists following religious aspects of Christmas. Which atheists and which religious aspects are they following? Specifically, I mean.
Never sent or received a Christmas card, or been to a carol service, or nativity, joined in with carols, or just enjoyed listening to them, given or received Christmas presents, said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc. Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.
BA, attending nativities or carol services isn't the same thing as following them. I've attended Leyton Orient football matches but I don't follow them.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, for whatever reason Easter probably borrows the name of a pagan goddess (no other explanation being forthcoming). Well, the winter festival that most people celebrate has the name of your God in it. That's all.
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
The "angel" who rescued us in the Algarve may well have been a kind person just passing in his boat at the right time (but I have never come across a man in a rowing boat in the Algarve before or since).
And?
Whether the man in the boat was an angel or not, he was an answer to prayer. Amazing things happen when you pray, you just need a little faith to make it work.
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So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
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Never sent or received a Christmas card, or been to a carol service, or nativity, joined in with carols, or just enjoyed listening to them, given or received Christmas presents, said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc. Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.
For a start Christmas cards are a Victorian invention, personally I don't 'do' religious songs at all (Xmas or otherwise), present-giving was part of the December-held Saturnalia festival that predates Christianity, and then there are other mid-winter festivals such as the pagan one Yule, and for me anyway saying 'Merry/Happy Christmas' is just a seasonal variation of expressions such 'Hope your are well or Have a nice day'.
Christianity can do or say what it likes surrounding Christmas, apart of course from claiming that this particular holiday (or Easter for that matter) are exclusively Christian inventions: they aren't.
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Suspect on what basis?
You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?
Because they either admit to following religious aspects, or do not deny it - in case you haven't noticed. But then, you are probably too busy visiting various religious forums.
No, I haven't noticed atheists following religious aspects of Christmas. Which atheists and which religious aspects are they following? Specifically, I mean.
Never sent or received a Christmas card, or been to a carol service, or nativity, joined in with carols, or just enjoyed listening to them, given or received Christmas presents, said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc. Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.
Not sure why a christmas card aligns with the 'religious' rather than the mid winter 'seasonal' (non religious) aspect of the festival. Certainly I don't send christmas cards with any religious theme on them, and probably 80-90% of those I receive aren't religious either - focusing on non religious seasonal imagery such as robins in snow, penguins, decorated northern european trees in winter etc etc. You know the standard christmas imagery, most of which isn't religious at all.
On the other ones, yup I have been to them - but so what - I like singing choral music and I have kids so it is pretty unlikely I'd be avoiding carols or nativities. But actually I don't usually go to carol 'services' (i.e. as part of religious worship), my carol singing tends to be in carol 'concerts' (sure we sing carols but there is no other religious aspect and certainly no worship), for charity (e.g. at the railway station, in Trafalgar Square) and to elderly people in sheltered accommodation. And in no case (beyond the carol itself) is their anything religious and certainly no religious worship.
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There's nothing hypocritical about attending a religious service at Christmas or at any time as a non-believer unless you are pretending to believe when you don't.
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How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?
The "angel" who rescued us in the Algarve may well have been a kind person just passing in his boat at the right time (but I have never come across a man in a rowing boat in the Algarve before or since).
And?
Whether the man in the boat was an angel or not, he was an answer to prayer. Amazing things happen when you pray, you just need a little faith to make it work.
If that sky fairy is capable of answering prayers positively why the heck doesn't it do so every time there is a need?
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There's nothing hypocritical about attending a religious service at Christmas or at any time as a non-believer unless you are pretending to believe when you don't.
That's true.
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Whether the man in the boat was an angel or not
No reason to believe so.
he was an answer to prayer. Amazing things happen when you pray, you just need a little faith to make it work.
It has to be said that it tends to be the case that people who believe in such things suffer from a massive case of confirmation bias, interpreting any positive event as an answer to prayer but conveniently overlooking neutral or negative events.
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Never sent or received a Christmas card
Most people do this as it's a nice way of reminding people that you're thinking of them. In a lot of cases, as everyone knows, a Christmas card is the only point of contact between acquaintances once a year. As Gordon has pointed out, they were/are a Victorian invention, as with so much else about Christmas - 1843, to be precise, an idea of Henry Cole (who along with Rowland Hill had been instrumental in creating the modern postal service as we know it a few years earlier) designed to get people using the system.
or been to a carol service
Never done that.
or nativity
Or that.
joined in with carols
Or that.
or just enjoyed listening to them
Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
given or received Christmas presents
Of course - it's gift-sharing season.
said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc.
That's an expression of good wishes along the same lines as wishing someone a happy birthday on their birthday, isn't it? Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.
I was expecting a few examples of something specifically Christian about Christmas. Was that supposed to be it?
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There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.
*apologies for earlier bollocks courtesy of autocorrect.
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There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and neuroma ship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.
I wish all cards could be e-cards, as they are such a waste of paper, just to be chucked out as soon as Christmas is over.
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Yes, aside from a card to aged relatives who don't do technology they serve no purpose.
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Yes, aside from a card to aged relatives who don't do technology they serve no purpose.
Agreed.
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Never sent or received a Christmas card
Most people do this as it's a nice way of reminding people that you're thinking of them. In a lot of cases, as everyone knows, a Christmas card is the only point of contact between acquaintances once a year. As Gordon has pointed out, they were/are a Victorian invention, as with so much else about Christmas - 1843, to be precise, an idea of Henry Cole (who along with Rowland Hill had been instrumental in creating the modern postal service as we know it a few years earlier) designed to get people using the system.
or been to a carol service
Never done that.
or nativity
Or that.
joined in with carols
Or that.
or just enjoyed listening to them
Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
given or received Christmas presents
Of course - it's gift-sharing season.
said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc.
That's an expression of good wishes along the same lines as wishing someone a happy birthday on their birthday, isn't it? Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.
I was expecting a few examples of something specifically Christian about Christmas. Was that supposed to be it?
There are other examples, if I could be bothered; but if you only admit to one of the examples, you are a hypocrite. Keep digging, old son!
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Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.
For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.
Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.
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There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.
There is a hideous waste of time and energy on all things religious, but adherents 'justify' it with "it helps some people to face life".
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There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.
There is a hideous waste of time and energy on all things religious, but adherents 'justify' it with "it helps some people to face life".
Nope, not music, nor architecture are or have been a waste of time or energy.
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There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.
There is a hideous waste of time and energy on all things religious, but adherents 'justify' it with "it helps some people to face life".
Nope, not music, nor architecture are or have been a waste of time or energy.
I was, of of course, referring to the time and energy wasted on ritual behaviour rather than actual artifacts.
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There are other examples, if I could be bothered; but if you only admit to one of the examples, you are a hypocrite. Keep digging, old son!
Then be bothered with these other examples, and let's hope they're better fare than the previous feeble set, none of which were specifically Christian as you claimed.
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There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.
There is a hideous waste of time and energy on all things religious, but adherents 'justify' it with "it helps some people to face life".
Nope, not music, nor architecture are or have been a waste of time or energy.
I was, of of course, referring to the time and energy wasted on ritual behaviour rather than actual artifacts.
And what behaviour do you indulge in that others may construe as a waste of time? Or are you really perfect?
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And what behaviour do you indulge in that others may construe as a waste of time? Or are you really perfect?
Whatever I am is streets ahead of you, dear BA. ;)
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Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.
For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.
Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.
Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
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And what behaviour do you indulge in that others may construe as a waste of time? Or are you really perfect?
Whatever I am is streets ahead of you, dear BA. ;)
And how would you know that, old man? Perhaps you could elucidate?
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And how would you know that, old man? Perhaps you could elucidate?
Just be reading your posts, dear boy! :)
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Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
Not at all - writing music is a composer's job. That's what they do, for the love of music. That's why they're composers in the first place.
As the editor of The English Hymnal RVW was better placed than most to know just how many supposedly 'religious' songs - hymns and carols - are built upon entirely secular sources such as traditional European folk song, which was RVW's passion. There's at least one hymn in the aforementioned book based on a tune borrowed (or pinched) from Wagner.
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And how would you know that, old man? Perhaps you could elucidate?
Just be reading your posts, dear boy! :)
Oh well, I suppose you might consider that an answer: it answers nothing. If we judged each other by our online persona, we'd be sending for the men in white overalls.
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Oh well, I suppose you might consider that an answer: it answers nothing. If we judged each other byouronline persona, we'd be sending for the men in white overalls.
A typical, ignorant, BA-ism!
Anybody who considers somebody a lunatic simply because they have weird ideas, is a fool.
Some people are merely misguided, not mad.
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Oh well, I suppose you might consider that an answer: it answers nothing. If we judged each other byouronline persona, we'd be sending for the men in white overalls.
A typical, ignorant, BA-ism!
Anybody who considers somebody a lunatic simply because they have weird ideas, is a fool.
Some people are merely misguided, not mad.
Who said anything about "mad?" Do you ever understand anything that's said on here? And don't call me ignorant: I've learned more than you could dream of.
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Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
Total bollocks.
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Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
Total bollocks.
Excellent, intellectual, response!
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Excellent, intellectual, response!
Unlike most of your stuff! :)
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Excellent, intellectual, response!
Unlike most of your stuff! :)
I can't cope with these top-level debaters. Well, top-level in the junior school, anyway!
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Excellent, intellectual, response!
Unlike most of your stuff! :)
I can't cope with these top-level debaters.
I know, but you are not completely useless BA. At least you serve as a bad example!
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As far as the OP goes, I don't really subscribe to the idea of angels; but I keep an open mind. After all, as Shakespeare wrote, to paraphrase, "we know nothing."
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Speak for yourself. Oh, you were. Sorry - carry on.
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Speak for yourself. Oh, you were. Sorry - carry on.
Sorry, "professor" I thought you might understand, but just the usual facetious cheap-shot in return.
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Speak for yourself. Oh, you were. Sorry - carry on.
Sorry, "professor" I thought you might understand, but just the usual facetious cheap-shot in return.
Oh, I do understand perfectly. It's the standard Socratic line - "The only thing I know is that I know nothing," etc. Well, I don't buy it. It smacks of a sort of faux-pious sanctimony, a Uriah Heep-like veneer of 'umility. Not knowing everything is not the same as knowing nothing.
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Speak for yourself. Oh, you were. Sorry - carry on.
Sorry, "professor" I thought you might understand, but just the usual facetious cheap-shot in return.
Oh, I do understand perfectly. It's the standard Socratic line - "The only thing I know is that I know nothing," etc. Well, I don't buy it. It smacks of a sort of faux-pious sanctimony, a Uriah Heep-like veneer of 'umility. Not knowing everything is not the same as knowing nothing.
You really do utter the most pompous twaddle!
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Rather late in coming into this thread but there is an interesting comment concerning angels in a short booklet entitled, ‘Christ on Trial in Zimbabwe-Rhodesia’ written by a man called Tom Barlow. Set in the time of the bush war in Zimbabwe there is a passage which tells of how some freedom fighters approached a farmhouse late at night, the intention being to attack the property and kill the occupants. The farming family were Christians. But the men withdrew without pressing their attack. When asked later for the reason for their withdrawal their answer was that the farmhouse was completely surrounded by men in white standing guard over it.
"For He will command His angels concerning you, to guard you in all your ways."
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I remember when Lin and Megan Russell and even their dog were stabbed to death and Josie Russell battered so brutally and left for dead that she received brain damage.
Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
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I remember when Lin and Megan Russell and even their dog were stabbed to death and Josie Russell battered so brutally and left for dead that she received brain damage.
Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
It would be unreasonable to expect them to be on duty 24/7!
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I remember when Lin and Megan Russell and even their dog were stabbed to death and Josie Russell battered so brutally and left for dead that she received brain damage.
Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
Indeed. :(
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Billy Graham on angels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK7v2Z_SqxI
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Billy Graham on angels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK7v2Z_SqxI
The best you can say of that sort of thing is that it's every bit as much worth listening to as anything else he ever said.
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Billy Graham on angels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK7v2Z_SqxI
The best you can say of that sort of thing is that it's every bit as much worth listening to as anything else he ever said.
Don't say you're an expert on what Billy Graham said? :D :D
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Hardly, though I'm familiar with the type.
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And he has such a great family too.
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Hardly, though I'm familiar with the type.
Knowing his "type" isn't the same as knowing precisely what he said.
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"And he has such a great family too." You would be comparing his to yours then Rhi.
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Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.
For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.
Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.
Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
What a load of rubbish. They are professional composers, it is how they make their living and they are rather good at it.
Do you think a professional carpenter or architect shouldn't work on a religious building if they don't believe. Just non-sense. Maybe in your world a left wing professional actor should never play the part of a right wing politician in a film.
Actually I think Rutter finds it almost amusing that he has made his career (and his living) being commissioned to compose sacred choral music even though he isn't a believer. But that's because he is very good at it. And actually in many cases these days the commissions do not come from religious organisations at all, but from secular choirs. And without secular choirs much of sacred choral music would be dead. You will no doubt be able to hear the Faure requiem in full will be performed in choir concerts up and down the country this coming weekend, just as last weekend. And lots of people will be paying good money to enjoy those concerts. Most of the great choral works these days are never heard as part of services of religious worship, but are performed in concerts with no worship element at all.
I wonder when the last time was when it was sung, in full, actually as a requiem mass at a funeral.
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Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.
For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.
Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.
Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
What a load of rubbish. They are professional composers, it is how they make their living and they are rather good at it.
Do you think a professional carpenter or architect shouldn't work on a religious building if they don't believe. Just non-sense.
Actually I think Rutter finds it almost amusing that he has made his career (and his living) being commissioned to compose sacred choral music even though he isn't a believer. But that's because he is very good at it. And actually in many cases these days the commissions do not come from religious organisations at all, but from secular choirs. And without secular choirs much of the sacred choral music would be dead. You will no doubt be able to hear the Faure requiem in full will performed in choir concerts up and down the country this coming weekend, just as last weekend. And lots of people will be paying good money to enjoy those concerts.
I wonder when the last time was when it was sung, in full, actually as a requiem mass at a funeral.
It's rather different earning your living working in stone or wood, than composing music to celebrate Christianity - fool.
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Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.
For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.
Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.
Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
What a load of rubbish. They are professional composers, it is how they make their living and they are rather good at it.
Do you think a professional carpenter or architect shouldn't work on a religious building if they don't believe. Just non-sense.
Actually I think Rutter finds it almost amusing that he has made his career (and his living) being commissioned to compose sacred choral music even though he isn't a believer. But that's because he is very good at it. And actually in many cases these days the commissions do not come from religious organisations at all, but from secular choirs. And without secular choirs much of the sacred choral music would be dead. You will no doubt be able to hear the Faure requiem in full will performed in choir concerts up and down the country this coming weekend, just as last weekend. And lots of people will be paying good money to enjoy those concerts.
I wonder when the last time was when it was sung, in full, actually as a requiem mass at a funeral.
It's rather different earning your living working in stone or wood, than composing music to celebrate Christianity - fool.
Not really - they make their living in music rather than stone or wood.
In your world should a non believing professional stained glass artist refuse a commission to make, or restore a church window. Or a christian stained glass artist refuse a commission to make a window for a mosque.
You are, as so often, talking complete non-sense I'm afraid.
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I'm pleased that you have mentioned Gabriel Faure, Prof, because he was - at the time his sublime Requiem was composed - an avowed non-believer.
Not only that, but he was still working as a church organist, playing at La Madeleine - and continued to do so for many years.
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I'm pleased that you have mentioned Gabriel Faure, Prof, because he was - at the time his sublime Requiem was composed - an avowed non-believer.
Not only that, but he was still working as a church organist, playing at La Madeleine - and continued to do so for many years.
Vaughan Williams was an organist for a while too.
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- fool.
King James Bible
Matthew 5:22
... but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Don't say you haven't been warned ......
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I'm pleased that you have mentioned Gabriel Faure, Prof, because he was - at the time his sublime Requiem was composed - an avowed non-believer.
Not only that, but he was still working as a church organist, playing at La Madeleine - and continued to do so for many years.
What BA appears to fail to understand is that all these people are first and foremost professional musicians/composers. That is both their primary passion and also their livelihood.
And as a professional composer it isn't surprising that you may take commissions when and where they arise, but also that you may want, as a professional, to take on the challenge of taking a very well accepted and recognised musical form with extremely rigid rules (don't forget there are a tiny number of words in a standard mass or a requiem mass, plus they are always the same, and in latin) and create something new, different and relevant to the musical community. And the creativity here is entirely musical, as (as I've already indicated) the words are identical in a Haydn mass from the late 18thC and Chilcott's 'A little Jazz mass' of 2009. The distinction and the creativity lie in the music.
In fact many of the current pieces being written are specifically (often on the manuscript) not intended for liturgical worship, but for concert performance. Those two things are entirely different. And add to that the fact that they are in latin, a language very rarely used these days in worship, so they simply aren't suitable for current worship. Add to that the fact that most of these pieces require an orchestra (often relatively small, but an orchestra none the less) and a number of highly competent soloists. How many churches would be able ton rustle up this for their worship - very, very few.
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As a digital artist I have created artwork with a religious theme when asked to do so. I don't have to believe in it, anymore than I have to believe in fairies to create a picture featuring them, if asked.
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So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
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Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
When I attended Mass this morning, one of the readings was about the ten leppers who were cured, but only one returned to thank Jesus, who showed His displeasure at those who did not thank Him.
We take so many of God's gifts for granted, particularly the gift of life. If we want God to help us through life, we need to show some gratitude for what He has already given us. There is no point in God intervening if we assume that His miracles are just natural phenomena which would have occurred anyway. Faith, humility and gratitude are the keys to unlock the power of God's grace.
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So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
In which case why doesn't the flipping deity get off its lazy backside and do the business without being asked?
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As a digital artist I have created artwork with a religious theme when asked to do so. I don't have to believe in it, anymore than I have to believe in fairies to create a picture featuring them, if asked.
On a similar theme, I was in a possition to ask the pianist Jeffery Parsons about his work and I asked him which piece of music was his favorite and he said that he couldn't afford to have any favourites, so very much like you indicate Floo, it's buisness, that's how it is.
ippy
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Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
When I attended Mass this morning, one of the readings was about the ten leppers who were cured, but only one returned to thank Jesus, who showed His displeasure at those who did not thank Him.
We take so many of God's gifts for granted, particularly the gift of life. If we want God to help us through life, we need to show some gratitude for what He has already given us. There is no point in God intervening if we assume that His miracles are just natural phenomena which would have occurred anyway. Faith, humility and gratitude are the keys to unlock the power of God's grace.
Got to hand it to you Alan, you've got a really vivid immagination.
ippy
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Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
When I attended Mass this morning, one of the readings was about the ten leppers who were cured, but only one returned to thank Jesus, who showed His displeasure at those who did not thank Him.
We take so many of God's gifts for granted, particularly the gift of life. If we want God to help us through life, we need to show some gratitude for what He has already given us. There is no point in God intervening if we assume that His miracles are just natural phenomena which would have occurred anyway. Faith, humility and gratitude are the keys to unlock the power of God's grace.
Got to hand it to you Alan, you've got a really vivid immagination.
ippy
I think it is probably fair to say the people who wrote the documents which make up the Bible had extremely vivid imaginations too.
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So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
Does that only apply to believers like you?
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When I attended Mass this morning, one of the readings was about the ten leppers who were cured, but only one returned to thank Jesus, who showed His displeasure at those who did not thank Him.
Graceless of him, wasn't it, but hardly untypical. There are umpteen people, from doctors and nurses to toilet cleaners and bin men, who get on and do their jobs without expecting thanks.
There is no point in God intervening if we assume that His miracles are just natural phenomena which would have occurred anyway.
That's something that could be easily (in fact effortlessly) remedied by such an entity simply providing unambiguous evidence of its existence instead of hiding behind what gives every appearance of being a godless material world of physical forces and comprehensible laws. What's the problem?
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So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
In which case why...
Ah, the joys of intellectual repartee!
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So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
ah good old omniscience, free will which you support, thrown casually away in that post, you little Calvinist, you. There is only one way for everything to happen with this omniscience.
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Prof Davey #106
A good read - well said!
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So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
ah good old omniscience, free will which you support, thrown casually away in that post, you little Calvinist, you. There is only one way for everything to happen with this omniscience.
God sees the finished canvas which I paint with my free will.
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If god creates stuff and knows what will happen there is no free will. If there is free will, there is no omniscience. Pick one or the other but maintaining both is logically contradictory, and therefore not even wrong
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If god creates stuff and knows what will happen there is no free will. If there is free will, there is no omniscience. Pick one or the other but maintaining both is logically contradictory, and therefore not even wrong
If God exists in a timeless dimension, He will know the result of our free will action.
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If my aunt had knackers she'd be my uncle, Alan.
Throwing all these "If this ..." and "If that"s around like confetti does nothing to hide the poverty of your arguments.
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- fool.
King James Bible
Matthew 5:22
... but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Don't say you haven't been warned ......
Well, to co-opt dear Dave's line:"we're all in this together."
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Prof Davey #106
A good read - well said!
There in another angle to this too.
For those that are aficionados of classical music and, in particular, classical singing will understand there are different forms. So a good (if somewhat simplistic) distinction being between operatic and traditional choral singing. Now these are actually different in singing style and professional musicians tend to become proficient in one or the other, but rarely both. The whole tone, technique and sound generated is different. And this is linked not just to basic distinctions but the type of space in which the music is 'designed' to be performed. So an opera house has a completely different design to a church, for example - and I'm talking acoustically, not purpose.
So choral music has always been composed for choral voices that perform in a space that uses its natural reverberation and resonance to augment and enhance the sound generated from the singers. And in most cases that kind of acoustic is to be found in the natural reverberations of traditional church designs (which themselves are designed often with that in mind). So take a top choral singing group, such as the sixteen. They are just about the best around - here them in Kings College Chapel and they are spellbinding - their voices are augmented by the acoustic to fill the space with rich reverberant sound. Take them and put them in a different space - e.g. a Barbican concert hall, which has a completely different acoustic that specifically reduces much of the natural reverberation that you'd get in a church (and is designed for orchestra largely) and although they'll still sound good the richness and fullness of the sound is lost.
So music is composed to be performed in particular types of space and musicians abilities are influence by that space.
Most traditional choral music is composed to be sung in a space with significant reverberation - which is usually a church. It isn't designed to be sung in the much 'drier' acoustic of an opera house or a concert hall. And vice versa - Opera is designed to be sung in an Opera house.
And I think this has had an affect, certainly until recently, on the 'subject' of the choral music. So if you are composing music that will be sung in a church, because that's the place where it sounds best, then likely as not you'll ensure the subject matter is suitable. Indeed until pretty recently many churches wouldn't really countenance the performance of secular choral pieces within their spaces, so frankly there wasn't a great deal of point composing them with no-where for them to be performed. However recently (over the past 40-50 years) there has been a softening of that approach, with churches recognising that they can make money from secular concerts and that insisting that the music must have a sacred theme isn't really tenable. Hence the proliferation of secular choral pieces that have a traditional choral flavour but choose non sacred text.
Interestingly there have been some much earlier 'cross-over' pieces, largely sacred music written by composers more associated with the operatic genre and in an operatic rather than traditional choral style. Perhaps the most famous being the Verdi requiem, which (after a brief initial 'test' performance) received its proper premier in La Scala, an Opera house, and was then performed in similar 'concert or opera' venues in Paris and London. The music is Operatic in nature and works best in an Opera house or concert hall rather than a church.
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A few weeks ago my wife and I were hosting a meal with two other Christian couples. A piece of Bible text we discussed was the quote from Jesus that we all have Angels in heaven. Our friend Helen seemed very moved by this reading, saying she had never come across it before.
Helen came up to us today after Mass to share something she had kept secret for twenty years. It was twenty years ago when she was diagnosed with Multiple-Sclerosis, and she recalled walking down Stockton High Street in bright sunshine thinking about the warning she had just been given that her sight might soon fail due to MS. She was looking at all the wonderful colours in the sunshine thinking soon she may never see them again in such vivid glory.
She was passing someone doing a street collection, and as she put her hand out to give a donation, the person took hold of her arm and said just one sentence: "Don't worry, your sight will never fail". Helen was so frightened by this she walked quickly away, but then retraced her steps to try to speak to this person, but when she looked the person was gone.
Helen now needs to walk with crutches due to the MS, but her sight is still intact twenty years later. Was it an angel sent to reassure her?
Sometimes, the LORD, places things on our hearts and minds and we reveal them and the person understands.
I was asking God for a sign about a person I knew. Something that would happen. Whilst out that day someone put a scripture reading in my shopping trolley and I carry it in my purse ever since.
We need to remember in all things God works for good.
We need to remember he heals too. She can be healed if she wanted to be.
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We need to remember in all things God works for good.
We need to remember he heals too. She can be healed if she wanted to be.
So people are only ill because they don't want to be cured.
Such wisdom!
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Sometimes, the LORD, places things on our hearts and minds and we reveal them and the person understands.
I was asking God for a sign about a person I knew. Something that would happen. Whilst out that day someone put a scripture reading in my shopping trolley and I carry it in my purse ever since.
We need to remember in all things God works for good.
We need to remember he heals too. She can be healed if she wanted to be.
Total garbage!
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Sometimes, the LORD, places things on our hearts and minds and we reveal them and the person understands.
I was asking God for a sign about a person I knew. Something that would happen. Whilst out that day someone put a scripture reading in my shopping trolley and I carry it in my purse ever since.
We need to remember in all things God works for good.
We need to remember he heals too. She can be healed if she wanted to be.
3
ippy