Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: BashfulAnthony on November 10, 2015, 06:15:20 PM
-
"Government plans to relax Sunday trading laws in England and Wales have been put on hold, after SNP opposition meant it faced defeat in the Commons.
The SNP had said it would vote against the changes amid fears it could drive down Scottish workers' wages."
Excellent. The SNP has shown good sense
-
"Government plans to relax Sunday trading laws in England and Wales have been put on hold, after SNP opposition meant it faced defeat in the Commons.
The SNP had said it would vote against the changes amid fears it could drive down Scottish workers' wages."
Excellent. The SNP has shown good sense
But the SNP are not doing it to support superstition and belief in magic and fairies. They are doing it to protect the earnibgs of their voters who do work on Sundays.
-
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.
Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.
-
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.
Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.
But there are Tory backbenchers who will not support it. If they only abstain the Government may well lose its majority.
-
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.
Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.
A number of Tories have indicated they would vote against a relaxing of trading laws. As the proposed regulations would have been applicable in England and Wales only, the SNP has been convinced by shopworkers' union Usdaw that retailers would pay for the extra hours by cutting wages across the UK - including those of Scottish workers currently being paid premium wages for Sunday work. They are likely correct. So the SNP are, in their view, protecting Scottish workers.
.
-
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.
Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.
A number of Tories have indicated they would vote against a relaxing of trading laws. As the proposed regulations would have been applicable in England and Wales only, the SNP has been convinced by shopworkers' union Usdaw that retailers would pay for the extra hours by cutting wages across the UK - including those of Scottish workers currently being paid premium wages for Sunday work. They are likely correct. So the SNP are, in their view, protecting Scottish workers.
.
Yes I just read that in the BBC report. It strikes me as wrong in many ways. If Scottish workers get premium wages for working on a Sunday, there's no logical reason why that would stop just because the rest of the country gets the same rules. The commercial reasons would be the same in England.
-
The SNP are using every possible chance they get to show that they can and will screw up anything so that they can get England to grant them independance to get rid of them.
-
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.
Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.
A number of Tories have indicated they would vote against a relaxing of trading laws. As the proposed regulations would have been applicable in England and Wales only, the SNP has been convinced by shopworkers' union Usdaw that retailers would pay for the extra hours by cutting wages across the UK - including those of Scottish workers currently being paid premium wages for Sunday work. They are likely correct. So the SNP are, in their view, protecting Scottish workers.
.
Yes I just read that in the BBC report. It strikes me as wrong in many ways. If Scottish workers get premium wages for working on a Sunday, there's no logical reason why that would stop just because the rest of the country gets the same rules. The commercial reasons would be the same in England.
If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere. Why would they allow Scotland any privileges? That's what the SNP think anyway.
-
I suspect there are politics at play here, with the SNP perhaps seeing the opportunity to make their presence felt.
The idea that wages would be driven down here in Scotland implies that Sunday trading UK-wide would be marginal profit-wise, and if introduced down south might generate losses due to premium Sunday wage rates. This seems odd to me, since based on anecdotal experience (mine) on a typical Sunday the local Tesco in Milngavie is fairly busy at 8.30am (it opens at 8am) and is still reasonably busy at 9.30pm (it closes at 10pm on Sundays).
I wonder if it might be more the case that USDAW don't like it, because it would be a major change to shopping in England & Wales, and the SNP (who clearly are comfortable with the concept) see an opportunity to play politics in support of their agenda.
-
It is strangely satisfying how this coalesces (or maybe coagulates) two long running threads we have discussed on here, on Sunday trading and influence of SNP MPs on English and Welsh issues.
-
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.
Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.
But there are Tory backbenchers who will not support it. If they only abstain the Government may well lose its majority.
But there will also be Labour MPs who vote in favour no doubt.
-
If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere. Why would they allow Scotland any privileges? That's what the SNP think anyway.
But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
-
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.
Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.
But there are Tory backbenchers who will not support it. If they only abstain the Government may well lose its majority.
But there will also be Labour MPs who vote in favour no doubt.
But Cameron thought not, and that's why he has put it on ice.
-
If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere. Why would they allow Scotland any privileges? That's what the SNP think anyway.
But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
Indeed and it seems rather bizarre that the SNP would block something in England that the are completely comfortable with in Scotland and it an accepted part of the landscape.
-
If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere. Why would they allow Scotland any privileges? That's what the SNP think anyway.
But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
-
If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere. Why would they allow Scotland any privileges? That's what the SNP think anyway.
But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But shops in England will only open for extended hours if it makes commercial sense so to do.
-
If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere. Why would they allow Scotland any privileges? That's what the SNP think anyway.
But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But shops in England will only open for extended hours if it makes commercial sense so to do.
Who knows? Tesco, for example, are losing money, and may try anything to try and recover, including extra hours at low rates of pay.
-
If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere. Why would they allow Scotland any privileges? That's what the SNP think anyway.
But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But shops in England will only open for extended hours if it makes commercial sense so to do.
Who knows? Tesco, for example, are losing money, and may try anything to try and recover, including extra hours at low rates of pay.
But that would only work if the extra hours improve their position - losing even more money by opening even longer makes no commercial sense.
-
If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere. Why would they allow Scotland any privileges? That's what the SNP think anyway.
But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But shops in England will only open for extended hours if it makes commercial sense so to do.
Who knows? Tesco, for example, are losing money, and may try anything to try and recover, including extra hours at low rates of pay.
But that would only work if the extra hours improve their position - losing even more money by opening even longer makes no commercial sense.
Maybe, but that, apparently, is what Usdaw thinks, and the SNP seem to agree.
-
"Government plans to relax Sunday trading laws in England and Wales have been put on hold, after SNP opposition meant it faced defeat in the Commons.
The SNP had said it would vote against the changes amid fears it could drive down Scottish workers' wages."
Excellent. The SNP has shown good sense
But the SNP are not doing it to support superstition and belief in magic and fairies.
Fairies have got nothing to do with Sunday opening.
You're allowed to open Harrowby towers gift and Estate farm shop anyway. Why so grumpy?
-
If we assume that the number and location of major supermarkets is planned in relation to local population demand, as is the undoubtedly the case both in Scotland and in England & Wales, then bearing in mind that there have been no Sunday trading restrictions for years here it is the case that where I live there are now more larger supermarkets than 5 years ago - a large Waitrose has just opened that is with a mile or so of large Asda and Tesco supermarkets and they all open as normal on Sundays.
This seems to go against the idea that extended Sunday opening somehow isn't profitable since, if so, and since we are told premium pay rates apply in Scotland, then surely by now we'd have seen the major retailers operate reduced Sunday hours in their large supermarkets here in Scotland for commercial reasons - and they haven't.
For some reason extended Sunday opening oddly seems controversial in England & Wales, hence the previous threads on this, but normal here - so I'm suspicious that this is more about politics (both Usdaw and SNP) than it is about commercial concerns: I suspect this cost excuse is a red-herring.
-
I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But if there are extra costs, the retailers are already bearing them in Scotland. Why wouldn't they also bear them in England?
-
...
But that would only work if the extra hours improve their position - losing even more money by opening even longer makes no commercial sense.
If they don't open longer and their competitors do, then they will lose more money than by opening longer. All the direct competitors need to cover similar hours otherwise some of their business will go to the competition.
People are not going to buy more stuff because the shops are open, but will change when or where they buy it. Thus longer hours mean higher costs for, essentially, the same income.
Still, there are plenty of supermarkets around that open 24 hours Mon-Sat, so presumably it can work commercially when you are keeping staff in, restocking and so forth anyway with customers increasingly using self-checkout systems.
Maybe they could all just raise their prices... ?
-
They are doing it to protect the earnibgs of their voters who do work on Sundays.
So, they have been making some of the same arguments as groups such as the Keep Sunday Special Campaign have been since Thatcher introduced her original idea back in the 1980s.
-
The idea that wages would be driven down here in Scotland implies that Sunday trading UK-wide would be marginal profit-wise, and if introduced down south might generate losses due to premium Sunday wage rates. This seems odd to me, since based on anecdotal experience (mine) on a typical Sunday the local Tesco in Milngavie is fairly busy at 8.30am (it opens at 8am) and is still reasonably busy at 9.30pm (it closes at 10pm on Sundays).
Gordon, I think that there is another issue all tied up with this - online shopping. It appears to be growing quite dramatically, year on year, thus putting pressure on 'High-Street'-based shopping. Remember that the later have to pay Business Rates whilst purely online companies have a far lower BR burden.
(I've just started a new thread on this latter matter)
-
The idea that wages would be driven down here in Scotland implies that Sunday trading UK-wide would be marginal profit-wise, and if introduced down south might generate losses due to premium Sunday wage rates. This seems odd to me, since based on anecdotal experience (mine) on a typical Sunday the local Tesco in Milngavie is fairly busy at 8.30am (it opens at 8am) and is still reasonably busy at 9.30pm (it closes at 10pm on Sundays).
Gordon, I think that there is another issue all tied up with this - online shopping. It appears to be growing quite dramatically, year on year, thus putting pressure on 'High-Street'-based shopping. Remember that the later have to pay Business Rates whilst purely online companies have a far lower BR burden.
(I've just started a new thread on this latter matter)
Perhaps, but on-line shopping applies to Scotland too but here at least the large supermarkets here aren't constrained. However, and I'm not sure when internet shopping started to increase in popularity, the option of 'normal' hours on a Sunday has been the case here for years now and I don't recall the challenge of internet shopping ever being raised as justification.
Seems to me, as I said on previous threads on this, that there is a 'Sunday is special' tradition/mentality in England & Wales that acts as a constraint on shopping and employment choices - last time I visited Tesco on a Sunday evening to do a weekly shop (we sometimes do this) there was an notable absence of frightened horses!
-
They are doing it to protect the earnibgs of their voters who do work on Sundays.
So, they have been making some of the same arguments as groups such as the Keep Sunday Special Campaign have been since Thatcher introduced her original idea back in the 1980s.
?????
I don't follow. Please explain.
-
"Government plans to relax Sunday trading laws in England and Wales have been put on hold, after SNP opposition meant it faced defeat in the Commons.
The SNP had said it would vote against the changes amid fears it could drive down Scottish workers' wages."
Excellent. The SNP has shown good sense
The SNP are merely using an opportunity to sabotage Cameron's EVEL plan.
Nothing more. It has nothing to do with "good sense."
The slightest hint that an "English" legislation will affect so much as a blade of grass north of the border and they will do it again ... and again ...
But the SNP are not doing it to support superstition and belief in magic and fairies.
Fairies have got nothing to do with Sunday opening.
You're allowed to open Harrowby towers gift and Estate farm shop anyway. Why so grumpy?
Indeed, and all the illegal immigrants that I employ at rates below the national minimum wage are made to double their output on Sundays for half their usual pay.
If we could leave the EU, the United Nations and the human race, I could make them work even harder.
And I certainly won't let them have Sundays off so that they can go to those funny buildings decorated with stylised erect penises so that they can join other people talking to themselves.
-
Perhaps, but on-line shopping applies to Scotland too but here at least the large supermarkets here aren't constrained. However, and I'm not sure when internet shopping started to increase in popularity, the option of 'normal' hours on a Sunday has been the case here for years now and I don't recall the challenge of internet shopping ever being raised as justification.
I have, but only over the last 3 or 4 years and only as one of a number of justifications.
-
The SNP are merely using an opportunity to sabotage Cameron's EVEL plan.
Yet this particular plan isn't even part of the EVEL category as it impacts on Wales as well.
-
The SNP are merely using an opportunity to sabotage Cameron's EVEL plan.
Yet this particular plan isn't even part of the EVEL category as it impacts on Wales as well.
So?
-
Perhaps, but on-line shopping applies to Scotland too but here at least the large supermarkets here aren't constrained. However, and I'm not sure when internet shopping started to increase in popularity, the option of 'normal' hours on a Sunday has been the case here for years now and I don't recall the challenge of internet shopping ever being raised as justification.
I have, but only over the last 3 or 4 years and only as one of a number of justifications.
What are the other justifications for restrictions, since for obvious reasons they don't get much coverage in the Scottish media since they don't apply here?
-
What are the other justifications for restrictions, since for obvious reasons they don't get much coverage in the Scottish media since they don't apply here?
The most common is work/family balance, whilst I have recently heard reference to the idea that 7-day working actually requires more regular replacement of equipment; in some cases, the relative shortage of custom on a Sunday has been given as a justification - especially within the context of High Streets.
-
What are the other justifications for restrictions, since for obvious reasons they don't get much coverage in the Scottish media since they don't apply here?
The most common is work/family balance, whilst I have recently heard reference to the idea that 7-day working actually requires more regular replacement of equipment; in some cases, the relative shortage of custom on a Sunday has been given as a justification - especially within the context of High Streets.
Who defines what work/family balance should be?
I'd have thought that being prescriptive about when reasonable people can shop by deliberately restricting trading is little more than unwarranted interference when a quick trip north of the border would confirm that the absence of Sunday trading restrictions is unremarkable and that there have been no dire consequences leading to demands to re-impose restrictions here.
Seems to me that the opposition to this (apart from the SNP, who I suspect are playing politics) is primarily based on the fear of change and attachment the argument from tradition that Sunday is 'special', and of course in this context 'special' is used as code for 'no change': who else gets to define 'special'?
-
Who defines what work/family balance should be?
I'd have thought that being prescriptive about when reasonable people can shop by deliberately restricting trading is little more than unwarranted interference when a quick trip north of the border would confirm that the absence of Sunday trading restrictions is unremarkable and that there have been no dire consequences leading to demands to re-impose restrictions here.
Seems to me that the opposition to this (apart from the SNP, who I suspect are playing politics) is primarily based on the fear of change and attachment the argument from tradition that Sunday is 'special', and of course in this context 'special' is used as code for 'no change': who else gets to define 'special'?
Spot on in every respect.
-
What are the other justifications for restrictions, since for obvious reasons they don't get much coverage in the Scottish media since they don't apply here?
The most common is work/family balance, whilst I have recently heard reference to the idea that 7-day working actually requires more regular replacement of equipment; in some cases, the relative shortage of custom on a Sunday has been given as a justification - especially within the context of High Streets.
Who defines what work/family balance should be?
I'd have thought that being prescriptive about when reasonable people can shop by deliberately restricting trading is little more than unwarranted interference when a quick trip north of the border would confirm that the absence of Sunday trading restrictions is unremarkable and that there have been no dire consequences leading to demands to re-impose restrictions here.
Seems to me that the opposition to this (apart from the SNP, who I suspect are playing politics) is primarily based on the fear of change and attachment the argument from tradition that Sunday is 'special', and of course in this context 'special' is used as code for 'no change': who else gets to define 'special'?
The work/life balance debate is a bit of a red herring to me, or perhaps better considered to be less black and white. Sure extended opening may (and I emphasise may) detrimentally affect a small number of people - i.e. those asked to work additional hours. But there will be others who are working for whom extra hours on a Sunday (rather than being limited to just 6 which is disruptive yet not a full working day) enhances flexibility and improves work/life balance.
And of course there are many more people for whom being better able to fit shopping around their busy lives, rather than their busy lives around the shop opening hours will improve work/life balance.
-
It's odd how the SNP are being vilified for this, and the fact that the Tories can't get their bill through the Commons via their own MPs is being ignored. Oppositions parties oppose, and governments pass bills, unless they can't.
Weren't the SNP also angry that the Scotland Bill has not included control over tax credits?
-
Seems to me that the opposition to this (apart from the SNP, who I suspect are playing politics) is primarily based on the fear of change and attachment the argument from tradition that Sunday is 'special', and of course in this context 'special' is used as code for 'no change': who else gets to define 'special'?
Yet we have had no big outcry from churches or other religious organisations, Gordon. The chief 'culprits' are Trades Unions and politicians.
-
Seems to me that the opposition to this (apart from the SNP, who I suspect are playing politics) is primarily based on the fear of change and attachment the argument from tradition that Sunday is 'special', and of course in this context 'special' is used as code for 'no change': who else gets to define 'special'?
Yet we have had no big outcry from churches or other religious organisations, Gordon. The chief 'culprits' are Trades Unions and politicians.
Which is exactly the point I was making earlier: this is mainly about politics.
-
Is there anyone here who won't buy things on a Sunday, if necessary?
-
Perhaps, but on-line shopping applies to Scotland too but here at least the large supermarkets here aren't constrained. However, and I'm not sure when internet shopping started to increase in popularity, the option of 'normal' hours on a Sunday has been the case here for years now and I don't recall the challenge of internet shopping ever being raised as justification.
I have, but only over the last 3 or 4 years and only as one of a number of justifications.
What are the other justifications for restrictions, since for obvious reasons they don't get much coverage in the Scottish media since they don't apply here?
According to the SNP spokesman on the Jeremy Vine show, yesterday, it's about the idea that if Sunday trading were more widespread it would somehow lower the wages paid - presumably because Sunday would be treated as any other working day.
His statement suggested that the SNP were in favour Sunday Trading in principle, but that they wanted a wage guarantee from the government somehow, despite the fact that so far as I can see there is no such safeguard in the Scottish trading laws for Sunday.
It was, blatantly, just an excuse by the SNP for an opportunity to be seen to be opposing the Tory government feeding into the horribly over-used phrase he was spouting about how the SNP were the 'effective opposition' at Westminster. Blatant politicking at the expense of workers and consumers, something the SNP had typically been avoiding up until now.
O.
-
Well, blatant politicking has been going on for a long time, hasn't it? Cameron's speech after the referendum was totally blatant, ditto the recent Scotland Bill.
I am trying to understand the USDAW argument, but it's complicated. The elephant in the room is the Tory rebellion but hush, hush, much easier to blame the Scots.
-
Is there anyone here who won't buy things on a Sunday, if necessary?
I don't suppose there are; but there are plenty of shops open to do so.
-
Well, blatant politicking has been going on for a long time, hasn't it? Cameron's speech after the referendum was totally blatant, ditto the recent Scotland Bill.
Absolutely. I'm not surprised it's happening, I'm only slightly disappointed that the SNP have stooped to the level quite so quickly.
I am trying to understand the USDAW argument, but it's complicated.
I don't think it's complicated, I think it's ideological bollocks. The point they actually want to make is 'we have an opportunity to stick it to the Tory scum because they have a partial split in their ranks and a very small majority', much as the SNP are. Their excuse is just fatuous crap to try to hide that. Unions should be standing up for their workers when they need to and working with employers when they need to, and the rest of the time they should be just invisible. Too often it seems like the unions are trying to justify their existence in a culture where, broadly, we have employment rights in place.
The elephant in the room is the Tory rebellion but hush, hush, much easier to blame the Scots
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
O.
-
Well, blatant politicking has been going on for a long time, hasn't it? Cameron's speech after the referendum was totally blatant, ditto the recent Scotland Bill.
Absolutely. I'm not surprised it's happening, I'm only slightly disappointed that the SNP have stooped to the level quite so quickly.
I am trying to understand the USDAW argument, but it's complicated.
I don't think it's complicated, I think it's ideological bollocks. The point they actually want to make is 'we have an opportunity to stick it to the Tory scum because they have a partial split in their ranks and a very small majority', much as the SNP are. Their excuse is just fatuous crap to try to hide that. Unions should be standing up for their workers when they need to and working with employers when they need to, and the rest of the time they should be just invisible. Too often it seems like the unions are trying to justify their existence in a culture where, broadly, we have employment rights in place.
The elephant in the room is the Tory rebellion but hush, hush, much easier to blame the Scots
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
O.
Why just the Bishops? What about all the other unelected mob? Just an expression of your bias again.
-
Which other unelected mob?
-
Which other unelected mob?
The Lords, generally, of course.
-
Which other unelected mob?
The Lords, generally, of course.
That issue could be solved long overdue root-and-branch reform.
-
Which other unelected mob?
The Lords, generally, of course.
That issue could be solved long overdue root-and-branch reform.
Which isn't going to happen whilst Dave is in charge. The best you get from him is lip-servce.
-
Why just the Bishops? What about all the other unelected mob? Just an expression of your bias again.
I think you might have mistaken the point I intended. I'm in favour of revoking the idea of inherited or politically appointed seats in the upper chamber as a whole.
Specifically, though, in a multi-cultural society, to reserve seats for representatives of a specific sect of a specific religion is unjustifiable - even if I were to accept that there should be reserved places for representatives of religion, to have them all be Anglican is out of keeping with the broader society.
O.
-
Outrider wrote:
I don't think it's complicated, I think it's ideological bollocks. The point they actually want to make is 'we have an opportunity to stick it to the Tory scum because they have a partial split in their ranks and a very small majority', much as the SNP are. Their excuse is just fatuous crap to try to hide that. Unions should be standing up for their workers when they need to and working with employers when they need to, and the rest of the time they should be just invisible. Too often it seems like the unions are trying to justify their existence in a culture where, broadly, we have employment rights in place.
That seems harsh to me. They are defending their members, which is their raison d'etre. Presumably, USDAW members are opposed to increased Sunday working.
The complicated bit is the relation to Scotland, where there is already Sunday trading.
-
Outrider wrote:
I don't think it's complicated, I think it's ideological bollocks. The point they actually want to make is 'we have an opportunity to stick it to the Tory scum because they have a partial split in their ranks and a very small majority', much as the SNP are. Their excuse is just fatuous crap to try to hide that. Unions should be standing up for their workers when they need to and working with employers when they need to, and the rest of the time they should be just invisible. Too often it seems like the unions are trying to justify their existence in a culture where, broadly, we have employment rights in place.
That seems harsh to me. They are defending their members, which is their raison d'etre. Presumably, USDAW members are opposed to increased Sunday working.
The complicated bit is the relation to Scotland, where there is already Sunday trading.
But unless USDAW also support reducing opening hours in Scotland their response lacks coherence or credibility. You cannot easily argue that longer opening hours are good in Scotland but would be bad in England.
-
It's odd how the SNP are being vilified for this, and the fact that the Tories can't get their bill through the Commons via their own MPs is being ignored. Oppositions parties oppose, and governments pass bills, unless they can't.
Not really strange at all. The Tory MPs are representing the country where this measure will take effect. They are also not the party in power in a country that already has no restrictions.
Weren't the SNP also angry that the Scotland Bill has not included control over tax credits?
Since that affects Scotland, it is a more legitimate thing for the SNP to stick their oar in over.
-
But unless USDAW also support reducing opening hours in Scotland their response lacks coherence or credibility. You cannot easily argue that longer opening hours are good in Scotland but would be bad in England.
PD, since this is a devolved issue as far as Scotland (but not Wales) is concerned, I assume that USDAW and some other unions are addressing this particular piece of England and Wales legislation, rather than trying at this stage to overthrow an existing piece of Scottish legislation.
-
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
On that argument, there ought to be no public holidays or festivals, since all the ones we have are, in one way or another, related to belief-systems - be it the Marxist May1st festival, Doshain/Deepavali, Eid, Samhain, Easter, ...
-
But unless USDAW also support reducing opening hours in Scotland their response lacks coherence or credibility. You cannot easily argue that longer opening hours are good in Scotland but would be bad in England.
PD, since this is a devolved issue as far as Scotland (but not Wales) is concerned, I assume that USDAW and some other unions are addressing this particular piece of England and Wales legislation, rather than trying at this stage to overthrow an existing piece of Scottish legislation.
I can't see any prospect of the SNP implementing regressive Sunday trading legislation here, especially since the option of unrestricted Sunday opening for large supermarkets is the well-established norm here to the extent that it isn't an issue at all: in fact the large Asda in Clydebank (10 minutes drive from here) is open 24/7 inc. Sundays.
Nobody is forced to shop on Sunday or is prevented from doing whatever else they can legally choose to do with their Sunday, so since this is so unremarkable here I'm struggling to see why it should be such a thorny problem in England & Wales.
-
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
On that argument, there ought to be no public holidays or festivals, since all the ones we have are, in one way or another, related to belief-systems - be it the Marxist May1st festival, Doshain/Deepavali, Eid, Samhain, Easter, ...
Well, no, most of those are congregated around seasonal variations: Spring, midwinter etc. I'd agree, though, that we could stand to spread the public holidays out a little.
The reason I don't like the idea of Keep Sunday Special is that there are a great many people from those others faiths for whom Sunday is irrelevant but another day of the week is not. Some see Fridays as important, some Saturdays - a law that entitles people to designate their own 'sacred' day would be far more accommodating and 'user' friendly than a blanket, Christianity oriented 'Sunday for all'.
O.
-
a law that entitles people to designate their own 'sacred' day would be far more accommodating and 'user' friendly than a blanket, Christianity oriented 'Sunday for all'.
But it would end up that everybody's sacred day was the same. Wouldn't it. Some tit who had his sacred day on another day would be sending you e mails and expecting a response. Traffic would rumble, planes would buzz overhead.
Lot's of opportunities for social cohesion lost.
-
a law that entitles people to designate their own 'sacred' day would be far more accommodating and 'user' friendly than a blanket, Christianity oriented 'Sunday for all'.
But it would end up that everybody's sacred day was the same. Wouldn't it. Some tit who had his sacred day on another day would be sending you e mails and expecting a response. Traffic would rumble, planes would buzz overhead.
Lot's of opportunities for social cohesion lost.
They rumble and buzz now: on any day, including Sundays, the airports, hospitals and power stations etc whether or not some think Sunday is sacred.
I wonder what the reaction would be if someone suggested, as part of keeping Sunday special, that Heathrow and Gatwick airports should be limited to 6 hours trading on a Sunday so as to be compatible with the restrictions on Sunday shopping - apart from those living under airport flightpaths I somehow suspect we'd hear cries of 'Nanny State' and complaints about unjustified interference and constraints on reasonable activity.
The current England & Wales situation seems daft to me since there is ample confirmation from here that there is no problem.
-
But it would end up that everybody's sacred day was the same. Wouldn't it. Some tit who had his sacred day on another day would be sending you e mails and expecting a response. Traffic would rumble, planes would buzz overhead.
I have colleagues who don't work the five day week, I have colleagues who take holidays, somehow we muddle through. On the other hand, I work Monday to Friday, and unfortunately so do almost all the banks, insurance companies, government departments etc. Makes it difficult to make appointments for anything without using up holidays I would otherwise use for socially cohering.
Lot's of opportunities for social cohesion lost.
Not really, people will spread their days out to suit themselves, providers will see their traffic balance over the week rather than peaking on particular days, people will be able to tailor their studies, work and social life to suit themselves, transport infrastructure will be less compressed... seems like a good idea to me.
O.
-
But it would end up that everybody's sacred day was the same. Wouldn't it. Some tit who had his sacred day on another day would be sending you e mails and expecting a response. Traffic would rumble, planes would buzz overhead.
I have colleagues who don't work the five day week, I have colleagues who take holidays, somehow we muddle through. On the other hand, I work Monday to Friday, and unfortunately so do almost all the banks, insurance companies, government departments etc. Makes it difficult to make appointments for anything without using up holidays I would otherwise use for socially cohering.
Lot's of opportunities for social cohesion lost.
Not really, people will spread their days out to suit themselves, providers will see their traffic balance over the week rather than peaking on particular days, people will be able to tailor their studies, work and social life to suit themselves, transport infrastructure will be less compressed... seems like a good idea to me.
O.
No, it'll just feel like being on nightshift. You have the hours off but everybody else will be buzzing about being busy. You ask anybody who has done it.
In terms of use and wear and tear everything will be expected to be working twenty four seven.
-
No, it'll just feel like being on nightshift. You have the hours off but everybody else will be buzzing about being busy. You ask anybody who has done it.
I've done nights, hated it, couldn't get it to work for me, but I know other people that swear by it. Horses for courses.
In terms of use and wear and tear everything will be expected to be working twenty four seven.
People will have to have redundancy or planned downtime, but then many, many industries manage perfectly well with that already. A significant portion of the manufacturing plants up and down the country operate 24/7, emergency services, the military, oil-platforms... you build redundancy into your system and perform maintenance on a rolling basis, it's fairly standard.
O.
-
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
On that argument, there ought to be no public holidays or festivals, since all the ones we have are, in one way or another, related to belief-systems
No they aren't. The two May bank holidays and New Year's Day are secular.
be it the Marxist May1st festival
You just have to be joking.
-
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
Yeah, let's make all the days the same. ::) No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.
-
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
Yeah, let's make all the days the same. ::) No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.
While this might in your mind make for hand-wringing rhetoric, you know as well as anyone does (or should, if they want to be qualified to talk on the subject) that extending Sunday trading hours (as in Scotland) doesn't mean that nobody rests; it means that different people have different days off.
-
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
Yeah, let's make all the days the same. ::) No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.
Please don't lie.
You know as well as anybody that not having Sunday special does not mean that people will have no days off. It simply means they don't have to choose Saturday and Sunday if they don't want to.
-
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
Yeah, let's make all the days the same. ::) No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.
Please don't lie.
You know as well as anybody that not having Sunday special does not mean that people will have no days off. It simply means they don't have to choose Saturday and Sunday if they don't want to.
And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.
-
And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.
So called Sunday pay is extra because it recognises the fact that you would be working on your normal day off. If I had designated Tuesday and Wednesday as my "weekend" my employer would still have to pay me extra if he wanted me come in to work then.
-
Dear World,
The ones who are pro Sunday opening, you have all been conned.
For evidence I give you Norway ( or is it Sweden ).
Less working hours all round.
More time for everyone to stop and stare.
Just me but this 24/7 stuff is so Victorian, everyone scrabbling to put food on the table, no time to stop and stare.
Gonnagle.
-
True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.
Yeah, let's make all the days the same. ::) No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.
Have I, for a moment, suggested anything to remove the provisions of the working time directive? No, I've suggested a liberalisation of the law so that people can choose which day of the week they wish to have as 'special' for them.
O.
-
And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.
A given individual worker might lose out, perhaps, but there is no reason that overtime payments would be affected. What would happen, with a more even and balanced working week, is that people who currently struggle to get a job would have more options.
One individual loses an opportunity for a bonus payment, someone else gets onto the working ladder in the first place - it's a trade-off, yes, but it gives workers and consumers added flexibility in their lives, which is something that money can't buy.
O.
-
And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.
So called Sunday pay is extra because it recognises the fact that you would be working on your normal day off. If I had designated Tuesday and Wednesday as my "weekend" my employer would still have to pay me extra if he wanted me come in to work then.
Well, in my contract I get payed double on a Sunday because it's a Sunday, regardless of how many hours I've worked that week and if I've already done six days I get payed triple.
-
But you live in Finland.
-
Outrider wrote:
I don't think it's complicated, I think it's ideological bollocks. The point they actually want to make is 'we have an opportunity to stick it to the Tory scum because they have a partial split in their ranks and a very small majority', much as the SNP are. Their excuse is just fatuous crap to try to hide that. Unions should be standing up for their workers when they need to and working with employers when they need to, and the rest of the time they should be just invisible. Too often it seems like the unions are trying to justify their existence in a culture where, broadly, we have employment rights in place.
That seems harsh to me. They are defending their members, which is their raison d'etre. Presumably, USDAW members are opposed to increased Sunday working.
The complicated bit is the relation to Scotland, where there is already Sunday trading.
Apologies, that wasn't quite as clear as I thought it was: the SNP's actions are purely political manouevring. USDAW's motives are less obviously a problem, though I think there's still an element of 'spite the Tories' to it - if they genuinely had this worry they'd be pressing the SNP to enact protective legislation as well.
O.
-
And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.
A given individual worker might lose out, perhaps, but there is no reason that overtime payments would be affected. What would happen, with a more even and balanced working week, is that people who currently struggle to get a job would have more options.
One individual loses an opportunity for a bonus payment, someone else gets onto the working ladder in the first place - it's a trade-off, yes, but it gives workers and consumers added flexibility in their lives, which is something that money can't buy.
O.
OK, but why not do away with overtime? Your businesses would probably employ more that way than relying on Sunday trading.
-
OK, but why not do away with overtime? Your businesses would probably employ more that way than relying on Sunday trading.
Some companies will find overtime useful for occasional peaks, some will find it costly and will want to increase their base employment - I don't think a one-size-fits-all imposed position would be advisable.
O.
-
I quite like the idea of "equal" days with everyone able to choose which days they worked, but: it is obviously unworkable for schools, and that will have a knock-on effect on everything and everyone else.
-
So much for extended Sunday trading hours for England then.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35771252
-
Nobody is forced to shop on Sunday or is prevented from doing whatever else they can legally choose to do with their Sunday, so since this is so unremarkable here I'm struggling to see why it should be such a thorny problem in England & Wales.
Whilst no-one is faoced to shop on a Sunday, many are forced to work on such a day. One of the reasons why the SNP voted against the Government's proposal was that they feared that UK-wide Sunday-trading would drag wages down across the board.
-
The reason I don't like the idea of Keep Sunday Special is that there are a great many people from those others faiths for whom Sunday is irrelevant but another day of the week is not. Some see Fridays as important, some Saturdays - a law that entitles people to designate their own 'sacred' day would be far more accommodating and 'user' friendly than a blanket, Christianity oriented 'Sunday for all'.
O.
Ironically, that is what the Keep Sunday Special campaign has been arguing for some years, O. That one day a week ought to kept special - and individuals can choose that day which suits their belief system.
-
So much for extended Sunday trading hours for England then.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35771252
For now. It will be back (given the narrowness of the defeat), and in the none too distant future at that.
-
No they aren't. The two May bank holidays and New Year's Day are secular.
Are you suggesting that the Whitsun [Late May] Bank Holiday secular? As for the early May Bank Holiday, that was introduced to celebrate the birthday of the USSR. Historically, it probably originated as a Roman festival honoring the beginning of the summer season (in the northern hemisphere).
Nothing secular about that.
Regarding New Year's Day, I still find it difficult to remember that it is a Bank Holiday.
-
Whilst no-one is faoced to shop on a Sunday, many are forced to work on such a day. One of the reasons why the SNP voted against the Government's proposal was that they feared that UK-wide Sunday-trading would drag wages down across the board.
In which case why don't the SNP, who control the Scottish parliament repeal the law in Scotland, which currently allows shops to open just as long as they like whether they are large or small.
This is classic policiticing from the SNP and deeply depressing. If you have any understanding of Scotland (as I do) you'd understand that the world hasn't fallen apart because Morrisons are able to open from 8am until 8am (if they choose and their are people who wish to shop during those hours and staff wanting to work), there has been no moral panic - everything works fine.
And if it is good enough for Scotland, why not for England.
So I can shop on line and have my order fulfilled by someone working on a Sunday whenever I make that final click, yet I cannot go into a physical shop - nonsense.
And if you are going to be have to work on a Sunday, surely it is better to work a full day rather than be restricted to working just six hours, which seems the worst possible situation - having you Sunday disrupted by having to work, but not being allowed to work a full working day, which of course would mean additional time off at some other time.
-
Are you suggesting that the Whitsun [Late May] Bank Holiday secular?
Unfortunately Hope, Pentecost this year is on 15th May which would make the non-secular late bank holiday (Whit Monday) due on 16th May.
When is the late May bank holiday actually due this year?
The last Monday in May.
That would be 30th May I believe.
Whit Monday is observed in some countries but not the UK, in fact has been like that for around 50 years now, you really do need to keep up with the times. ::)
Regarding New Year's Day, I still find it difficult to remember that it is a Bank Holiday.
Given the above, I'm not surprised.
-
As for the early May Bank Holiday, that was introduced to celebrate the birthday of the USSR.
Was it not introduced to celebrate intentional workers day which pre-dates the birthday of the USSR?
Historically, it probably originated as a Roman festival honoring the beginning of the summer season (in the northern hemisphere).
Nothing secular about that.
Not relevant as that was not the reason it was introduced to the UK as a Bank Holiday I would suggest.
-
Whilst no-one is faoced to shop on a Sunday, many are forced to work on such a day. One of the reasons why the SNP voted against the Government's proposal was that they feared that UK-wide Sunday-trading would drag wages down across the board.
It's maybe worth considering who gains from the current restrictions on Sunday trading - ONLINE companies!
Have the SNP perhaps forgotten to declare an interest in Amazon? :o :o
-
Was it not introduced to celebrate intentional workers day which pre-dates the birthday of the USSR?
It was introduced in the UK in 1977(?) and I can't say that I ever remember it being sold as the UK's equivalent of Labour Day. Much fuss was made about its being something related to the Soviet Union.
Not relevant as that was not the reason it was introduced to the UK as a Bank Holiday I would suggest.
But interesting.
-
Unfortunately Hope, Pentecost this year is on 15th May which would make the non-secular late bank holiday (Whit Monday) due on 16th May.
When is the late May bank holiday actually due this year?
The last Monday in May.
That would be 30th May I believe.
Whit Monday is observed in some countries but not the UK, in fact has been like that for around 50 years now, you really do need to keep up with the times. ::)
Sorry, Seb, but perhaps you need to keep up with history. The May Bank Holiday was historically asociated with Whitsun - and some calendars still call it that. It was only moved by a week or two when the May Day Holiday was introduced in the 70s; no-one was too keen on two Bank Holidays so close to each other.
Given the above, I'm not surprised.
Not really, it only started in England in the 70s, and having lived outside of the UK for 10 years of my life, it never really got imprinted into my life.
-
It's maybe worth considering who gains from the current restrictions on Sunday trading - ONLINE companies!
Have the SNP perhaps forgotten to declare an interest in Amazon? :o :o
This is true.
I can order something on Saturday and it is delivered on Sunday!
It took me by surprise as I assumed I would have to wait until Monday, but no.
-
This is true.
I can order something on Saturday and it is delivered on Sunday!
It took me by surprise as I assumed I would have to wait until Monday, but no.
Yup, same - I had something delivered a couple of Sundays ago and that's not the first time. And jolly nice it was too.
It's the nonsense of the situation as it stands - you can buy on a Sunday; you can have it delivered on a Sunday, but you can't shop after 4/5:00pm if the building is above a certain size - which will ensure that a relaxation of Sunday trading laws is inevitable. It's the British way to do the right thing only once all other options have been exhausted but we get there in the end. It hasn't been defeated so much as temporarily delayed for a few years - irritating, yes, annoying, certainly, but you need only look at the pace of progress on equalising the age of consent and on equal marriage for example to see why the issue will be revisited and put right. Liberalising measures aimed at maximising personal freedom always keep on coming round till the right thing is done. It will be back on the agenda soon enough.
-
Yup, same - I had something delivered a couple of Sundays ago and that's not the first time. And jolly nice it was too.
It's the nonsense of the situation as it stands - you can buy on a Sunday; you can have it delivered on a Sunday, but you can't shop after 4/5:00pm if the building is above a certain size - which will ensure that a relaxation of Sunday trading laws is inevitable. It's the British way to do the right thing only once all other options have been exhausted but we get there in the end. It hasn't been defeated so much as temporarily delayed for a few years - irritating, yes, annoying, certainly, but you need only look at the pace of progress on equalising the age of consent and on equal marriage for example to see why the issue will be revisited and put right. Liberalising measures aimed at maximising personal freedom always keep on coming round till the right thing is done. It will be back on the agenda soon enough.
Exactly, as there must be lots of Sunday workers.
The orders are being picked and despatched, and delivered.
-
Very irritated by this for the reasons detailed above. Utter nonsense.
-
As I've said before, the restrictions in England and Wales seem daft in this day and age, but perhaps there is more of 'Sunday is special' mindset involved elsewhere in the UK (which raises the issue of who defines 'special'). It is ironic that Scottish MPs have been involved in preventing the easing of these restrictions elsewhere in the UK, albeit for domestic political reasons rather than worries about adults outwith Scotland being allowed to shop for longer over the weekend.
For example, my local Tesco supermarket in Milngavie is open from 8am-10pm every Sunday, including the upcoming Easter weekend, and the even bigger Tesco Extra (about 15 minutes drive) is open 24 hours including Sundays - this is just routine here and isn't contentious.
-
Very irritated by this for the reasons detailed above. Utter nonsense.
I agree.
Having spent a lot of time in Scotland over the past years their approach is so much more sensible and civilised. And what it does is it allows people with busy lives (which is many of us) to fit the need for shopping around our desire to be doing other stuff, for example family and friends time. Currently you end up doing the reverse, having to fit the rest of your life around the need to shop.
-
Sorry, Seb, but perhaps you need to keep up with history. The May Bank Holiday was historically asociated with Whitsun - and some calendars still call it that. It was only moved by a week or two when the May Day Holiday was introduced in the 70s; no-one was too keen on two Bank Holidays so close to each other.
Sorry, Hope but the non-secular Whitsun holiday is still practised in some countries on the correct date - just not in the UK.
The late Spring bank holiday in the UK is taken on the last Monday in May (with a few secular exceptions).
Sometimes it will coincide with Whitsun, but mostly it doesn't.
It was changed over 50 years ago from actually being Whitsun to not being Whitsun.
It was not moved because of the introduction of the International Workers day holiday (that was in 1978, introduced by Michael Foot IIRC.)
It was officially moved in fact in 1971 under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971, and that was following a trail period from 1965 to 1970.
So 13 or 7 years (depending on how pedantic you want to be) before the early spring holiday was introduced in fact.
Unfortunately, Hope perhaps it is you who needs to keep up with history?
-
I agree.
Having spent a lot of time in Scotland over the past years their approach is so much more sensible and civilised. And what it does is it allows people with busy lives (which is many of us) to fit the need for shopping around our desire to be doing other stuff, for example family and friends time. Currently you end up doing the reverse, having to fit the rest of your life around the need to shop.
Yet they choose to intervene in legislation that:
A/ Does not affect Scotland.
B/ Puts English and Welch Sunday trading laws closer to Scottish laws.
Ms Sturgeon is playing a very devious game.
-
Yup, same - I had something delivered a couple of Sundays ago and that's not the first time. And jolly nice it was too.
It's the nonsense of the situation as it stands - you can buy on a Sunday; you can have it delivered on a Sunday, but you can't shop after 4/5:00pm if the building is above a certain size - which will ensure that a relaxation of Sunday trading laws is inevitable. It's the British way to do the right thing only once all other options have been exhausted but we get there in the end. It hasn't been defeated so much as temporarily delayed for a few years - irritating, yes, annoying, certainly, but you need only look at the pace of progress on equalising the age of consent and on equal marriage for example to see why the issue will be revisited and put right. Liberalising measures aimed at maximising personal freedom always keep on coming round till the right thing is done. It will be back on the agenda soon enough.
But I think even a great Conservative like yourself would recognise that in your afore mentioned examples there was no question of conflict with other people's freedoms and wages as there is here.
-
But I think even a great Conservative like yourself
Nope; wrong chap.
Definitely the wrong chap.
Outstandingly the wrong chap.
Egregiously the wrong chap.
I think you're thinking of somebody else.
in your afore mentioned examples there was no question of conflict with other people's freedoms and wages as there is here.
They don't seem to think that that's the case in Scotland - why England?
-
Ms Sturgeon is playing a very devious game.
Not really causes people in Scotland to smile and people in rUK anger, classic divide and rule play.
-
What I did find interesting is that in all the discussions I hear on the matter, not a single word referring to religion was brought up. It was always a spokesperson from USDAW agin a spokesperson for big business!
-
What I did find interesting is that in all the discussions I hear on the matter, not a single word referring to religion was brought up. It was always a spokesperson from USDAW agin a spokesperson for big business!
That's because most politicians are smart enough to know that using religion as the reason for trying to block Sunday trading will generate both derision and the unchallengable repost as to why the 95% of the population who don't attend church on a Sunday should be dictated to by the 5% who do.
So they use all sorts of other excuses for opposing, but undoubtedly the real reason (although they won't say it) is because they are religious and don't think we should be shopping on a Sundayfrom religious reasons.
-
What I did find interesting is that in all the discussions I hear on the matter, not a single word referring to religion was brought up. It was always a spokesperson from USDAW agin a spokesperson for big business!
Religion should have nothing to do with the matter.
-
Religion should have nothing to do with the matter.
But it does of course. Do you think that there would be the same people trying to restrict opening if the day with restricted opening was a Wednesday. Those genuinely campaigning on the basis of workers rights would of course, but do you really think the hardline Christian Tories who swung the vote last week would have - of course not, they wouldn't have given a stuff.
-
But it does of course. Do you think that there would be the same people trying to restrict opening if the day with restricted opening was a Wednesday. Those genuinely campaigning on the basis of workers rights would of course, but do you really think the hardline Christian Tories who swung the vote last week would have - of course not, they wouldn't have given a stuff.
Obviously, historically it was to do with religion and the church still have a view on the subject, but I think today there are other more important factors.
For example the unions imagine that they can force a better deal for their workers (clearly oblivious to the fact that if shops are open less people will shop online more) and of course our friends the SNP who presumably think that if they annoy us enough we might decide to get rid of them.
-
Obviously, historically it was to do with religion and the church still have a view on the subject, but I think today there are other more important factors.
For example the unions imagine that they can force a better deal for their workers (clearly oblivious to the fact that if shops are open less people will shop online more) and of course our friends the SNP who presumably think that if they annoy us enough we might decide to get rid of them.
But do you really think that the uber-hard right Christian MP Peter Bone (teller for the No's last week) is at the forefront of blocking extended Sunday trading because of workers' rights. Of course he isn't. There remains a rump who oppose because they are Christians and they don't believe we should be shopping on a Sunday for religious reasons.
-
But do you really think that the uber-hard right Christian MP Peter Bone (teller for the No's last week) is at the forefront of blocking extended Sunday trading because of workers' rights. Of course he isn't. There remains a rump who oppose because they are Christians and they don't believe we should be shopping on a Sunday for religious reasons.
It would be interesting to know just how many of those 27 dissenters are uber-hard right in the first place. I suspect that at least some would regard themselves as mainstream - in other words, neither left or right - other than the fact that, by definition, Christianity (and therefore potentially Christians) is pretty radical.
-
But do you really think that the uber-hard right Christian MP Peter Bone (teller for the No's last week) is at the forefront of blocking extended Sunday trading because of workers' rights. Of course he isn't. There remains a rump who oppose because they are Christians and they don't believe we should be shopping on a Sunday for religious reasons.
Yes, there is a smattering of God Squad withing the Conservative party and with a small majority they have power, but Labour decided to keep their union paymasters happy by opposing, and Nicolas mob decided to be complete arses.
-
Just to say that normally Mrs G does the weekly shop when the local Tesco opens on Sunday mornings at 8am, which I realise is before the main supermarkets open 'down south'.
Today she didn't though, since the youngest grandchild wasn't well overnight: he stayed here overnight and is fine now - and is back home with his parents (hooray!), so Mrs G has just gone off to Tesco to do the weekly shop (it closes at 10pm).
I'm struggling to see why this would be seen as being problematic if we lived in Gloucester instead of in Glasgow.
-
Just to say that normally Mrs G does the weekly shop when the local Tesco opens on Sunday mornings at 8am, which I realise is before the main supermarkets open 'down south'.
Today she didn't though, since the youngest grandchild wasn't well overnight: he stayed here overnight and is fine now - and is back home with his parents (hooray!), so Mrs G has just gone off to Tesco to do the weekly shop (it closes at 10pm).
I'm struggling to see why this would be seen as being problematic if we lived in Gloucester instead of in Glasgow.
Hi Gordon,
I don't think many people on this side of the border would see that as problematic at all . . . .
Unfortunately, a bunch of troublemakers from your side of the border have 'stuck their oar in' and prevented that from happening here.
-
I wasn't in favour of the SNP votes but then Cameron could have amended the legislation to give the same protection on wages as exist in Scotland and that would have made the SNP's position untenable.
-
I wasn't in favour of the SNP votes but then Cameron could have amended the legislation to give the same protection on wages as exist in Scotland and that would have made the SNP's position untenable.
My theory is that they are just trying to make themselves as objectionable as possible in the hope that they would get another referendum. They certainly make a good case for EVEL.
-
My theory is that they are just trying to make themselves as objectionable as possible in the hope that they would get another referendum. They certainly make a good case for EVEL.
Which might well be the case, but they made a specific argument that would have been dealt with by giving greater protection to worker's wages on Sundays, the ones that already exist in Scotland.
-
Which might well be the case, but they made a specific argument that would have been dealt with by giving greater protection to worker's wages on Sundays, the ones that already exist in Scotland.
I think there are two points there:
1/ How does blocking legislation that affects England and Wales protect Scottish wages?
2/ How does forcing people to shop online help anyone in the traditional retail sector?
-
Hi Gordon,
I don't think many people on this side of the border would see that as problematic at all . . . .
Unfortunately, a bunch of troublemakers from your side of the border have 'stuck their oar in' and prevented that from happening here.
They did so though because of domestic concerns that the Tory government could have addressed, and even then some Tories voted against. Presumably, if the Tories were really keen on removing restrictions, they could have done this under different legislation where EVEL could have applied.
-
I think there are two points there:
1/ How does blocking legislation that affects England and Wales protect Scottish wages?
Because the major supermarkets are UK-wide so if this went ahead in rUK but without Sunday enhanced pay outside Scotland there is the risk of the 'rush to the bottom mentality' that could reduce pay here - and here is where the SNP support is.
-
I think there are two points there:
1/ How does blocking legislation that affects England and Wales protect Scottish wages?
2/ How does forcing people to shop online help anyone in the traditional retail sector?
The argument was whether you agree with it that the same legislation on wage support should have been applied. I would have expected people engaging with the argument to have followed it.
-
They did so though because of domestic concerns that the Tory government could have addressed, and even then some Tories voted against. Presumably, if the Tories were really keen on removing restrictions, they could have done this under different legislation where EVEL could have applied.
I'm not sure that that was an option, I'm sure that if they could have got the law changed without all the problems, they would have done so. There was always the possibility of dissenters, so with a small majority it was always going to be on a knife-edge.
If the SNP had abstained or if Labour had allowed a free vote the result have been different and we would have gained the same rights as your mother. ;)
-
I'm not sure that that was an option, I'm sure that if they could have got the law changed without all the problems, they would have done so. There was always the possibility of dissenters, so with a small majority it was always going to be on a knife-edge.
If the SNP had abstained or if Labour had allowed a free vote the result have been different and we would have gained the same rights as your mother. ;)
There is existing legislation on this in Scotland, are you really saying it is beyond the wit of the Tory govt to copy some homework. The SNP were undoubtedly playing politics, so we're the Tories in wanting less protection for workers than exists in Scotland.
-
Because the major supermarkets are UK-wide so if this went ahead in rUK but without Sunday enhanced pay outside Scotland there is the risk of the 'rush to the bottom mentality' that could reduce pay here - and here is where the SNP support is.
That sounds like control freakery in the extreme! The idea that you should be able to influence the wages of a small sector of your workers by intervening in the politics of another country?
The major supermarkets are under great competitive pressure at the moment and the hypothetical possibility of reduced pay (unlikely with the new living wage) is the last thing their employees should be worrying about.
-
There is existing legislation on this in Scotland, are you really saying it is beyond the wit of the Tory govt to copy some homework. The SNP were undoubtedly playing politics, so we're the Tories in wanting less protection for workers than exists in Scotland.
I'm just saying that if there had been an easy way of doing it I'm sure they would have done it.
But at least we agree that the SNP were just playing politics.
-
I'm just saying that if there had been an easy way of doing it I'm sure they would have done it.
But at least we agree that the SNP were just playing politics.
No, you are asserting it and giving the Tory govt some bizarre free pass, which can of course be easily disproved if you look at them filibustering on Friday to talk out time for Caroline Lucas' bill.
To say govt can't pass a law similar to one that already exists means you are calling them dangerously incompetent in terms of their ability to carry out on of their main key competencies.
-
I'm not sure that that was an option, I'm sure that if they could have got the law changed without all the problems, they would have done so. There was always the possibility of dissenters, so with a small majority it was always going to be on a knife-edge.
If the SNP had abstained or if Labour had allowed a free vote the result have been different and we would have gained the same rights as your mother. ;)
My mother?
-
My mother?
I'm so sorry Gordon, I'm afraid I mis-read your earlier post.
I meant of course your good lady.
-
That sounds like control freakery in the extreme! The idea that you should be able to influence the wages of a small sector of your workers by intervening in the politics of another country?
The Tories tried do to this under UK-wide legislation and on that basis the SNP are doing what they were elected to do, which is to look after the interests of the people of Scotland, and as they are entitled to do as elected Westminster MPs.
I'd have thought the far bigger issue was the decision of the Labour party to oppose this. After all there is only one Labour MP from Scotland and I'd be very surprised if it really were were the case that the majority of Labour MP's in England and Wales had major issues with Sunday trading - so the political machinations of Labour MPs representing the areas that would have been affected has had a far greater impact on the voting numbers than the SNP had.
The reality is that the Tories mismanaged this: aside from using UK-wide legislation when they knew they had home-grown rebels on this, and never mind the risk of SNP opposition, did they really expect support from the SNP so soon before the Holyrood election when the Tories are so unpopular here - 'SNP help Tory party reduce wages for Scottish shopworkers' wouldn't make a good headline for the SNP.
-
I'm so sorry Gordon, I'm afraid I mis-read your earlier post.
I meant of course your good lady.
No problem :)