Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Samuel on December 01, 2015, 02:37:23 PM
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I was wondering what everybody thought of the idea of salvation, in its broadest sense.
Personally I've always found the idea that we need to be 'saved' quite compelling. This is usually in the frame of understanding it within a Christian view but taking it as a purely mythological 'truth'... if that makes sense. All religions typically include some notion that human failing is inevitable and that we must strive to overcome it. I dislike ideas that suggest we are somehow wholly corrupt and without any goodness at all, but it seems undeniable to me that, if we were being marked, a teacher would write 'could do better'.
I suppose in that way I've always seen the religious idea of 'salvation' to be about hope for a better world. The specific religious baggage and doctrine that comes with it often clouds the issue and makes it less relevant, less accessible. Which is a shame.
what does everyone else think?
...this has given me an idea for another thread
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hmm .. this is something I've never understood. Saved from what?
.. and what is it like once you are "saved"?
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Ah, bugger. That was going to be my point too - the concept of salvation, at least in a religious context, surely relies on being saved from some particular thing or state. What in a secular context would this be? Or can a non-religious concept of salvation dispense with it?
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Even when I believed there was a God, the idea of salvationseemed a daft idea. Saved from what? Why? By what? :)
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Even when I believed there was a God, the idea of salvationseemed a daft idea. Saved from what? Why? By what? :)
If nothing else, saved from yourself! Have you never done any wrong to any other person, or living thing? Are you free from all wrong-doing and nastiness, of any sort, whether it be in word, thought, or deed If so, I recommend you for a sainthood!
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If nothing else, saved from yourself! Have you never done any wrong to any other person, or living thing? Are you free from all wrong-doing and nastiness, of any sort, whether it be in word, thought, or deed If so, I recommend you for a sainthood!
That's not the case for anybody who has ever drawn breath; however, the remedy for that is surely mindfulness or awareness rather than the self-dramatising idea that you need to be "saved from yourself."
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If nothing else, saved from yourself! Have you never done any wrong to any other person, or living thing? Are you free from all wrong-doing and nastiness, of any sort, whether it be in word, thought, or deed If so, I recommend you for a sainthood!
But I take full responsibility for all such things that I have done in my life. If there's "saving" to be done, or reparation to be made, I sort that out myself. Never have I waited for someone else to do it for me.
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But I take full responsibility for all such things that I have done in my life. If there's "saving" to be done, or reparation to be made, I sort that out myself. Nwever have I waited for someone else to do it for me.
Completely agree. Religious notions of salvation from without strike me as exercises in buck-passing. Whatever we do wrong, we do to a real person, to a someone (or even to a non-human animal). It's to those to whom we have to apologise and make whatever amends and restitution we can.
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But I take full responsibility for all such things that I have done in my life. If there's "saving" to be done, or reparation to be made, I sort that out myself. Never have I waited for someone else to do it for me.
You can never make reparation for all your misdeeds because you never know when your time is coming; so there bound to be unpleasantness left unaccounted for.
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And that's just how it has to be.
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Completely agree. Religious notions of salvation from without strike me as exercises in buck-passing. Whatever we do wrong, we do to a real person, to a someone (or even to a non-human animal). It's to those to whom we have to apologise and make whatever amends and restitution we can.
I also agree completely with you and Susan on this, and am amazed that anyone with such a cherry-picking attitude to the scriptures can find any justification for the belief that Jesus came to earth as some sort of patent remedy for guilty consciences. In the instance of our stubborn friend's peculiar selection of beliefs, it seems something very much plucked out of nowhere - and dependent on nothing more than such sentiments as "I believe it because I choose to believe it".
The idea of Christ as a 'sacrifice for our sins' - expanded on in the letters of Paul and John's gospel - depends in its origins so much on Old Testament ideas of the Paschal Lamb and the scapegoat. Didn't somebody say they rejected the Old Testament - or is this another case of "I reject it except where I don't reject it" - or in the case of the Gospels "I accept and trust them except where I don't accept and trust them"? (And if you don't believe me, I've got a certificate from Neasden Polytechnic to prove I'm right) :)
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And that's just how it has to be.
Usual atheist rationalisation of the misdeeds of your life. Too bad, eh? A great way to be, to dismiss responsibility for your actions so you don't have to worry about any of your nastiness. Why do I bother to expect anything else?
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Usual atheist rationalisation of the misdeeds of your life. Too bad, eh? A great way to be, to dismiss responsibility for your actions so you don't have to worry about any of your nastiness. Why do I bother to expect anything else?
Except that both Susan and I (and latterly Dicky) have explicitly said that we have to take responsibility for whatever we do wrong. There's no alternative.
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You can never make reparation for all your misdeeds because you never know when your time is coming; so there bound to be unpleasantness left unaccounted for.
Well, at nearly 80, and knowing that sooner or later something's going to bring my life to an end - for a start, new bovine tissue aortic valves are given ten years, and I've had more than two already!, I think I'll manage to cope!! -
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And that's just how it has to be.
Exactly. It can be a very bitter pill to swallow for some people. And indeed, some people's lives can be crippled by guilt. That's hard, but humans can be very forgiving in themselves, and the John Profumo route is a worthy one to follow, if you feel you've done something dastardly. Of course, sometimes religious beliefs simply create unnecessary guilt in the first place....
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Exactly. It can be a very bitter pill to swallow for some people. And indeed, some people's lives can be crippled by guilt. That's hard, but humans can be very forgiving in themselves, and the John Profumo route is a worthy one to follow, if you feel you've done something dastardly. Of course, sometimes religious beliefs simply create unnecessary guilt in the first place....
Indeed - lovely post.
To me the brevity and uncertainty of life and the finality of death make it all the more, not less, important not only to make amends for past wrongs but to endeavour to live in such a way as to make future contrition unnecessary. There is no option to defer the grand righting of wrongs to some highly dubious (to say the very least) future state and shuffle off all my wrongs onto some equally dubious figure. That would be a prime example of what Sartre called mauvaise foi, or bad faith - inauthenticity.
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One needs to apologise to those one has wronged and try to make reparation. But no way does one need to apologise to the deity, assuming it exists and was responsible for creating humans. Its cock ups are responsible for human nature!
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Saved from myself? Which therefore immediately goes down the route that it is only not myself that can behave well. What an amount of self loathing is that! What hatred of humanity! What skulking Uriah Heepness!
ETA: I should have realised that it would be Bashful Uriah touting that.
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Saved from myself? Which therefore immediately goes down the route that it is only not myself that can behave well. What an amount of What skulking Uriah Heepness!
ETA: I should have realised that it would be Bashful Uriah touting that.
Sounds like a guilty conscience blurting out there!
"...self loathing...hatred of humanity!" Over-the-top, big time!
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Sounds like a guilty conscience blurting out there!
Of course it does, to you, Uriah.
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Of course it does, to you, Uriah.
Keep your hair on, fella. It seems to me, that if your persona on here is anything to go by, you would have a huge amount to make amends for.
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Keep your hair on, fella. It seems to me, that if your persona on here is anything to go by, you would have a huge amount to make amends for.
As any good Uriah would say - good to see you are really getting into this character, keep up the good work, I'm quite impressed at your sticking to the brief.
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As any good Uriah would say - good to see you are really getting into this character, keep up the good work, I'm quite impressed at your sticking to the brief.
Someone who needs to take a look at himself, I think!
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Someone who needs to take a look at himself, I think!
Shiny, Shiny mirror
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Shiny, Shiny mirror
Don't know what that means. Probably nothing, like so many of your posts!
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Ah, bugger. That was going to be my point too - the concept of salvation, at least in a religious context, surely relies on being saved from some particular thing or state. What in a secular context would this be? Or can a non-religious concept of salvation dispense with it?
I suppose I view ithe concept of salvation rather obliquely. That is I ignore the face valaue religious claims. I am interested in what lurks behind or below it.
Salvation is a 'big' idea and there is value in big ideas in helping us talk about problems or challenges. Turning it into an issue of the individual, i.e. Salvation from one's self, kind of undermines that potential.
What could it be in a secular sense?... Climate change? Something like that? I guess I'm thinking of salvation as simply a linguistic device. Something that provides a slightly different framework within which to think about an issue.
Maybe it's like that coversation we had recently about sacredness. Perhaps the idea of salvation just appeals to me, or speaks to me, helps me think or whatever, but it doesn't work for everyone. Dunno.
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Salvation, I like to look at these kind of problems, at a deeper intellectual level than I would in my normal every day life and it's not very easy to sum up salvation it's a deeply complicated subject.
Perhaps salvation could best be summed up as a complete load of old bollocks, yes I think that's a fair summary of this surprisingly deep and difficult subject.
Salvation, a head shakingly daft, empty concept.
ippy
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Salvation, I like to look at these kind of problems, at a deeper intellectual level than I would in my normal every day life and it's not very easy to sum up salvation it's a deeply complicated subject.
Perhaps salvation could best be summed up as a complete load of old bollocks, yes I think that's a fair summary of this surprisingly deep and difficult subject.
Salvation, a head shakingly daft, empty concept.
ippy
That's why it appeals to you: after all, you are here on the thread. If you think so of the concept, then ignore it, eh?
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I suppose I view ithe concept of salvation rather obliquely. That is I ignore the face valaue religious claims. I am interested in what lurks behind or below it.
Salvation is a 'big' idea and there is value in big ideas in helping us talk about problems or challenges. Turning it into an issue of the individual, i.e. Salvation from one's self, kind of undermines that potential.
What could it be in a secular sense?... Climate change? Something like that? I guess I'm thinking of salvation as simply a linguistic device. Something that provides a slightly different framework within which to think about an issue.
Maybe it's like that coversation we had recently about sacredness. Perhaps the idea of salvation just appeals to me, or speaks to me, helps me think or whatever, but it doesn't work for everyone. Dunno.
When I lost my faith the biggest liberation for me was realising that we save ourselves. And what that means to me is that instead of relying on God to get me out of the shit, I have to do it for myself. Maybe with the help of others sometimes. I don't think it's so much about 'could do better' as 'we can do this'.
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I'm not keen on the idea of salvation because of what it actually does, as an idea.
It allows you to be controlled by other human beings.
Look how the idea of salvation is thought to rest in other people's hands, how people end up thinking they have to go to church, believe certain things, support some power structure.
( to Christians here, you might see it better if you look at something like the JW, but it applies across the board)
The whole thing gives authority over you, to someone else.
If someone tries to live a good life, and does a few things wrong, they shouldn't have to constantly have to beat themselves up over it.
This guilt thing, and the idea of salvation together form a sort of emotional blackmail.
If there is a creator out there, and ultimately it's about love, no one needs another person to intercede on their behalf.
People try and insert themselves between you and the creator. If it exists, IMO you don't need that.
There is an assumption that a creator expects you to be perfect.
But we evolved/were created imperfect, maybe for a reason :o
Perhaps a creator would expect you to do the best you can, with what you've got.
???
I don't think much of the concept of salvation tbh, it always looks like emotional manipulation on behalf of groups or individuals.
Nothing to do with any creator IMO.
I'm with others here when they say they ( and me) have to make amends to people they have hurt.
If they can't, sending them on a guilt trip, does nothing for me at all.
It's an attempt to control them IMO .
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Indeed - lovely post.
To me the brevity and uncertainty of life and the finality of death make it all the more, not less, important not only to make amends for past wrongs but to endeavour to live in such a way as to make future contrition unnecessary. There is no option to defer the grand righting of wrongs to some highly dubious (to say the very least) future state and shuffle off all my wrongs onto some equally dubious figure. That would be a prime example of what Sartre called mauvaise foi, or bad faith - inauthenticity.
Well, thank you. And I agree with every word of yours. I'm sure neither of us can think of anyone blatantly exhibiting mauvaise foi around here, can we? ;)
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In Jungian terms salvation could be described as becoming more conscious and integrating those aspects and gifts that remain in the unconscious that never became fully integrated into one's personality and character when one was growing up - some things in our early years just have to be left for a later date.
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I may have mentioned this before, JK, but The Deptford Trilogy by Robertson Davies is a picaresque mystery story with heavy Jungian influences including one character going through Jungian analysis. You might enjoy it.
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I don't know if JK is interested but I am, so thanks for reminding me to check it out ;)
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I don't know if JK is interested but I am, so thanks for reminding me to check it out ;)
I don't read novels only things that provide me with information or ideas in some form or other.
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I don't read novels only things that provide me with... ...ideas in some form or other.
It's that what a good novel does?
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It's that what a good novel does?
It isn't specific in providing such things, only in a round about way or undercurrent, which means there's lots of superfluous waffle and chit-chat which I hate. They usually pose questions with no real substantial discourse towards some form of an answer. I like books focused on a topic or subject and provide in depth discussive analysis.
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hmm .. this is something I've never understood. Saved from what?
Saved from God's wrath on the day of judgment.
.. and what is it like once you are "saved"?
Well, you know you won't face God's wrath when you die, so it's rather good.
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Saved from God's wrath on the day of judgment.
Well, you know you won't face God's wrath when you die, so it's rather good.
You have no evidence to support those statements! ::)
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You have no evidence to support those statements! ::)
It's the kind of thing that initially looks like Tolkeinian fantasy but let's dig a little deeper. It should be treated as fanciful nonsense but rarely is by those who oppose it who find it abhorrent. Abhorrent enough to twist the part about dying in and through one's own sins....to be in one's own place to twist the claim into God being some giant pulling the legs of little innocent insects.
Of course at the base of it the unreasonable level of outrage that shouldn't be cause if there was absolutely no quiet doubt that there might be something in it.....is really due to the claims questioning the moral goodness that the ego perceives of itself.......in the absence of actual evidence.
If there was nothing in it.....why the reaction it gets?
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It's the kind of thing that initially looks like Tolkeinian fantasy but let's dig a little deeper. It should be treated as fanciful nonsense but rarely is by those who oppose it who find it abhorrent. Abhorrent enough to twist the part about dying in and through one's own sins....to be in one's own place to twist the claim into God being some giant pulling the legs of little innocent insects.
Of course at the base of it the unreasonable level of outrage that shouldn't be cause if there was absolutely no quiet doubt that there might be something in it.....is really due to the claims questioning the moral goodness that the ego perceives of itself.......in the absence of actual evidence.
If there was nothing in it.....why the reaction it gets?
Because unfortunately a lot of gullible people take it seriously!
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Because unfortunately a lot of gullible people take it seriously!
No........... because people's egos are outraged by the message that they are not quite what they are cracked up to be.
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No........... because people's egos are outraged by the message that they are not quite what they are cracked up to be.
No, Floo was definitely right ;)
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Because unfortunately a lot of gullible people take it seriously!
An an equally large number of gullible people fail to take it seriously. Take religion out of the equation, and the idea that the human race is in need of salvation - from the global economic divide; the climate change tsunami that is likely to hit the world in the next few decades (if not sooner); the terrorist threats divide; etc. - is no less a valid issue. I realise that we in the West like to minimise the matter, but that is no better than hiding our proverbial heads in the sand.
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An an equally large number of gullible people fail to take it seriously.
What gullibility is involved in not accepting an entirely unevidenced let alone unproven concept?
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What gullibility is involved in not accepting an entirely unevidenced let alone unproven concept?
Good question!
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What gullibility is involved in not accepting an entirely unevidenced let alone unproven concept?
So you are saying the global predicament for humanity is completely unevidenced.
That individual acquisitive materialism has no contribution to the global solution?
That no matter how we try to improve ourselves individually we always seem to fall short or we blame others who have fallen shorter.
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So you are saying the global predicament for humanity is completely unevidenced.
That individual acquisitive materialism has no contribution to the global solution?
That no matter how we try to improve ourselves individually we always seem to fall short or we blame others who have fallen shorter.
No. I'm saying that the idea that humanity qua humanity has something to be saved from, of which it stands in need of outside (i.e. other than human) assistance, is twaddle.
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No. I'm saying that the idea that humanity qua humanity has something to be saved from, of which it stands in need of outside (i.e. other than human) assistance, is twaddle.
Shaker breaks into Ethel Merman mode and starts singing ''Everything's coming up roses''.
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I think most people know they are not perfect, but they are reluctant to allow others to use their weaknesses, to tell them what to think and believe.
Which is what Christianity is trying to do with its message of fallen man/woman.
People won't accept that.
It's not their egos, but the manipulation many object to.
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I think most people know they are not perfect, but they are reluctant to allow others to use their weaknesses, to tell them what to think and believe.
Which is what Christianity is trying to do with its message of fallen man/woman.
People won't accept that.
It's not their egos, but the manipulation many object to.
But the truth is people allow themselves to be manipulated all the time by advertisers, politicians, society etc. so there must be something more at stake when it comes to religion.......ego.
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But the truth is people allow themselves to be manipulated all the time by advertisers, politicians, society etc. so there must be something more at stake when it comes to religion.......ego.
Some people are manipulated by their religious faith and can't think for themselves! ::)
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Some people are manipulated by their religious faith and can't think for themselves! ::)
I can see the same thing in secular society....and as that's bigger than religious society.....is far more widespread.
In other words because the majority are secular humanist....that must be the reservoir for sheepish behaviour.
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I can see the same thing in secular society....and as that's bigger than religious society.....is far more widespread.
In other words because the majority are secular humanist....that must be the reservoir for sheepish behaviour.
I can think for myself thanks!
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But the truth is people allow themselves to be manipulated all the time by advertisers, politicians, society etc. so there must be something more at stake when it comes to religion.......ego.
Right on cue for - “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”
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Right on cue for - “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”
A meaningless phrase!
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Right on cue for - “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”
It's a bit like claiming you are proud and egotistical because you won't join the Mormons or other group.
It's about people trying to gain control of your mind and when you resist them, they then say you are doing so because you are egotistical and refuse to see what God is really like.
It's an obnoxious technique which isn't used by advertising or politicians.
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A meaningless phrase!
It's christianeze. Designed to make people feel excluded and certain Christians display that pride and ego they reckon they don't have ;)
Christianeze is a secret language to make Christian egotists feel they are an
elite ;)
All part of the manipulation techniques.
They hope to woo you using the fear of rejection.
Won't work though, as Keith's latest thread shows.
To many individuals on here that are not bothered by social inclusion at any price
;)
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But Christianity goes further and says we are 'fallen' for wanting things that are either harmless, or actually good for us.
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But Christianity goes further and says we are 'fallen' for wanting things that are either harmless, or actually good for us.
Congratulations you win todays prize for the caricature of Christianity which paints it in the worst light.
Antitheists you have been shown up......Not bad for a paganism which reckons it is at peace with all and doesn't wish to proselytise or ram it's own goodness down anybodies throats.
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Congratulations you win todays prize for the caricature of Christianity which paints it in the worst light.
Antitheists you have been shown up......Not bad for a paganism which reckons it is at peace with all and doesn't wish to proselytise or ram it's own goodness down anybodies throats.
So rather than counter my statement with a decent argument you settle for a personal attack.
Whatever.
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Congratulations you win todays prize for the caricature of Christianity which paints it in the worst light.
Antitheists you have been shown up......Not bad for a paganism which reckons it is at peace with all and doesn't wish to proselytise or ram it's own goodness down anybodies throats.
Brilliant work, Vlad. Stunning, really. You were handed the perfect opportunity to take Rhiannon's #58 and say: "Actually, I disagree with that assessment of yours, and here are my reasons why ..." and instead we get another swivel-eyed rant about anti-theists.
Exceptional work, Vlad. No, really.
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Christianeze
feel excluded
secret language
Christian egotists
elite
manipulation
fear of rejection
That's one humdinger of a hate on you got Rose. Merry CHRISTmas.
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It is true though, MHMMaM. I have experienced the same. Let me say that I am a believer but before I was I met and mixed with some quite extreme Christians who were very nice but would convey all the sentiments that you have listed, were often quite insensitive and tactless, single minded and somewhat complacent. There was also something of a glassy stare. I was a grown up but sometimes felt confused. I was much happier later, in a more mainstream setting which was more human and - for want of a better word - "normal".
I have also come across those attitudes on forums, I tend to ignore most of it or talk about something else of a lighthearted nature, but I've heard of people being accused of arrogance and defiance because they don't believe: they don't believe because they can't believe, it isn't a question of deliberately not believing. It can be off putting, certainly scary for younger people and those of a sensitive nature. Not everyone has a gift for evangelism, some definitely should keep schtum.
(Btw, I noted your nickname and feel very sorry that the mods have removed your vocal cords. They should be prosecuted. )
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Sounds like you met and mixed with humans Brownie. I have a customer and the first few times talking to her, she just had a dazed and glassy stare. But now she just yatters on and on with me about perennials. That list is not my experience in a conservative Christian church and my family. Though I will admit that dad had to go after a couple fellas fresh out of Bible college that were so on fire they were turning people off and annoying some in the congregation. Dad never thought twice about dumping a bit of water on their fire and letting them just smolder.
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:)
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Some people are manipulated by their religious faith and can't think for themselves! ::)
And the leader of your religious faith loves you,and think you will be spending eternity with him,and when you get there you will hate him.
~TW~
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Handy hint: Floo doesn't have one ;)
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And the leader of your religious faith loves you,and think you will be spending eternity with him,and when you get there you will hate him.
~TW~
How do you know?
No one can judge how another person can love, not even you!
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How do you know?
He doesn't.
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He doesn't.
I know, but the trouble is, he doesn't know that ;)
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And the leader of your religious faith loves you,and think you will be spending eternity with him,and when you get there you will hate him.
~TW~
I suspect you would be joining me in hell as you bring Christianity into disrepute with your nastiness!
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I suspect you would be joining me in hell as you bring Christianity into disrepute with your nastiness!
Nastiness no facts yes,mind you if was in hell with you I could remind you each day what a pratt you were, now that would be hell for you. :)
~TW~
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Some people are manipulated by their religious faith and can't think for themselves! ::)
Some people are manipulated by commercial organisations and can't think for themselves, others aren't. Floo. Is it the people's fault or the organisations' fault?
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Nastiness no facts yes,mind you if was in hell with you I could remind you each day what a pratt you were, now that would be hell for you. :)
~TW~
Your Christian loving kindness pours out of your rear end, so one needs to wear a clothes peg on one's nose when reading your posts! ;D ;D ;D
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Your Christian loving kindness pours out of your rear end, so one needs to wear a clothes peg on one's nose when reading your posts! ;D ;D ;D
At least his posts have a fragrance, indicating life; many of yours are so poorly thought out that they don't even have that, Floo.
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At least his posts have a fragrance, indicating life
His (always obnoxious and usually incoherent, so mercifully few) posts have a fragrance but fragrance doesn't equal life since after an August day or two a dead rat is pretty fragrant.
Although bacteria and maggots are indicative of life, so if that's the comparison you had in mind, I shan't argue ;)
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At least his posts have a fragrance, indicating life; many of yours are so poorly thought out that they don't even have that, Floo.
YOU ARE JOKING! ::)
My dear Hope, I don't think your posts are very well thought out either, otherwise you wouldn't make the statements you do!
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Hell floo you want it God says you can have it.You cant hide floo except in Jesus and he is not your master.Your post's reject Jesus and his word and you and your friends have a master called the deceiver and he has done a fine job on you.
~TW~
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Hell floo you want it God says you can have it.You cant hide floo except in Jesus and he is not your master.Your post's reject Jesus and his word and you and your friends have a master called the deceiver and he has done a fine job on you.
~TW~
Your comments get crazier each time you post, maybe you should see a doctor, you appear to have some serious problems!