Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Owlswing on February 09, 2016, 04:56:57 PM
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Moderator:
This post of Owlswing's has been used as on OP for a thread of posts from the Seasons thread (Pagan Board) that comprised an off-topic discussion on Christian Tradition.
Good evening Lady Rhi
This is the main fault with Christians - they are convinced - to the nth degree, that the bible IS fact and its entirety and with no exceptions!
Yet they still cannot agree on where Christ's tomb was and still cannot find it.
There is no record of a census requiring all Jews to return to their place of birth in 0CE, but according to the Christians, this is becasue the records have been lost, not becase they never existed.
I am amazed that no Christian has yet stood up in a criminal court and plead 'Not Guilty by reason of the fact that the bible says that it is OK to do what I did' to some crime or other.
One of the biggest problem I have is that, even when their strongly held beliefs are proved to be wrong they are convinced that it is the proof that is in error and not their beliefs and their bible.
BB
)O(
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Good evening Lady Rhi
This is the main fault with Christians - they are convinced - to the nth degree, that the bible IS fact and its entirety and with no exceptions!
Yet they still cannot agree on where Christ's tomb was and still cannot find it.
There is no record of a census requiring all Jews to return to their place of birth in 0CE, but according to the Christians, this is becasue the records have been lost, not becase they never existed.
I am amazed that no Christian has yet stood up in a criminal court and plead 'Not Guilty by reason of the fact that the bible says that it is OK to do what I did' to some crime or other.
One of the biggest problem I have is that, even when their strongly held beliefs are proved to be wrong they are convinced that it is the proof that is in error and not their beliefs and their bible.
BB
)O(
Never heard of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre then?
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If so, at least I have an argument. You haven't given one so far except pagans (mis)interpreted the seasons before Christianity. That means naught though. There have always been believers in the true God since Adam and Eve.
Are you one of those who thinks the world is 6000 years old?
What you are doing is what all dictators do - rewrite history to put themselves in a good light and create a narrative into times past to give themselves legitimacy.
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Are you one of those who thinks the world is 6000 years old?
What you are doing is what all dictators do - rewrite history to put themselves in a good light and create a narrative into times past to give themselves legitimacy.
I'm not a young earther, no. Anyway, my original point was that being Christian and a new ager are contradictory. You can't be both without falling into some sort of semi-paganism. The Apostle had the pagans sussed in his epistle to the Romans.
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Never heard of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre then?
yes but . . .
The tomb of Jesus may refer to any place where it is believed that Jesus was entombed.
Places that have been proposed as the location of such a tomb include:
Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem
Garden Tomb, discovered in the 19th century outside the old city of Jerusalem
Talpiot Tomb, rock-cut tomb in the East Talpiot neighborhood, five kilometers south of the Old City in East Jerusalem
Roza Bal, the reputed tomb of Jesus in Kashmir
OK - Ad_O, which one is the "real" one and who and on what authority decides which is the "real" one.
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The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the true cross and tomb having been found by St. Helena, mother of the holy emperor Constantine. God revealed the place to her in a vision or dream.
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The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the true cross and tomb having been found by St. Helena, mother of the holy emperor Constantine. God revealed the place to her in a vision or dream.
I might actually have believed you were it not for the last sentence above!
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I might actually have believed you were it not for the last sentence above!
The authenticity of the site of the Church was proven by a miracle which happenned when St. Helena found the true cross.
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The authenticity of the site of the Church was proven by a miracle which happenned when St. Helena found the true cross.
Miracle - another way of describing a witch's spell when performed by Christ (before or after crucufixtion) - same thing, different name, same procedure, different assisting deity, but still a witch's spell.
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The authenticity of the site of the Church was proven by a miracle which happenned when St. Helena found the true cross.
That's just a story.
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Miracle - another way of describing a witch's spell when performed by Christ (before or after crucufixtion) - same thing, different name, same procedure, different assisting deity, but still a witch's spell.
Nope. Two completely different things.
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Nope. Two completely different things.
Not to any non Christian. What you are doing is called special pleading.
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That's just a story.
It is what happened.
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Not to any non Christian. What you are doing is called special pleading.
Not at all. You don't have to be a Christian to know the difference between a spell and a miracle. A spell is a form of words supposed to have magic power. A miracle is an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
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It is what happened.
You keep telling yourself that. Can you point to any contemporary accounts that verify that she found the true cross? Nope.
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Not at all. You don't have to be a Christian to see the difference between a spell and a miracle.
They are both magic. The difference is only that Christians approve of one and not the other.
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You keep telling yourself that. Can you point to any contemporary accounts that verify that she found the true cross? Nope.
Eusebius of Caesarea.
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It is what happened.
Prove it.
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Nope. Two completely different things.
The same, using one's own inate power of will to make a change in the physical world with either the assistance or aquiescence of a deity - Christ's miracles and his god and a witch and his/hers.
Exactly the same thing!
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The same, using one's own inate power of will to make a change in the physical world with either the assistance or aquiescence of a deity - Christ's miracles and his god and a witch and his/hers.
Exactly the same thing!
No. You're obviously an idiot.
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No. You're obviously an idiot.
And you're obviously constitutionally incapable of constructing a reasoned argument.
Bald assertion - plenty of that.
Faith masquerading as fact - tons of it.
Inability to tell the difference between rational argument based upon evidence and mere assertion - by the yard.
But an actual argument - not a chance.
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They are both magic. The difference is only that Christians approve of one and not the other.
Here you go Jeremy .... an opportunity to witness what the Eastern Church classes as a miracle ..... http://www.holyfire.org/eng/
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Here you go Jeremy .... an opportunity to witness what the Eastern Church classes as a miracle ..... http://www.holyfire.org/eng/
They are gullible enough to believe anything that backs up their idiotic beliefs. :)
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Moderator:
As noted in the OP, this thread comprises posts that were originally in the Seasons thread (Pagan Board) but were off-topic there and, as such, have been split into this new thread.
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Eusebius of Caesarea.
That verify that she found the True Cross, not just a cross (or three).
What tests did she do to make sure she had the right one? Please avoid talking about miracles, because, if anything, miracles are an indication of fiction.
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That verify that she found the True Cross, not just a cross (or three).
What tests did she do to make sure she had the right one? Please avoid talking about miracles, because, if anything, miracles are an indication of fiction.
You can't say that. That would be like asking you to prove that 2+2=4 without using mathematics. It would make no sense. The miracle was the proof, a corpse rose when the cross was held over it.
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Just because something is a tradition within a church doesn't mean it has any basis in reality.
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You can't say that.
I just did.
That would be like asking you to prove that 2+2=4 without using mathematics.
No it wouldn't. Mathematics exists and is a tried and tested method.
It would make no sense. The miracle was the proof, a corpse rose when the cross was held over it.
The miracle was fictional. Dead people don't come alive.
Did she find any real evidence? Was there a sign attached to the cross à la Bible account? Are there any eye witness accounts? Eusebius wasn't there was he.
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The miracle was fictional. Dead people don't come alive.
The miracle was real.
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The miracle was real.
No it wasn't.
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No it wasn't.
Yes it was. End of!
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The miracle was real.
We're really getting into backing away smiling territory now.
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Yes it was. End of!
You have got to be the most pig-headed and blind wing-nut on this forum.
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Yes it was. End of!
No it wasn't.
That's the end of.
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We're really getting into backing away smiling territory now.
Backing? I'm bloody running as fast as I can and as far away from Ad_O as I can get in case someone thinks that I know who he is and locks me up for being so stupid as to be associated with him and his hysterical nonsense.
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You have got to be the most pig-headed and blind wing-nut on this forum.
And you have to be the biggest tosser. So go away. I've never seen anyone with such a big chip on their shoulder and you really don't like anyone thinking that you're wrong. You're a joke (after all, you're a pagan) and everyone here knows it.
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Ever wondered how differently your life would have panned out if you'd had more oxygen at birth, ad_o?
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Ever wondered how differently your life would have panned out if you'd had more oxygen at birth, ad_o?
No. I obviously had plenty when I was born, unlike you.
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No. I obviously had plenty when I was born, unlike you.
Given your maladapted, indeed downright warped personality and the intellectual hobbling which leaves you unable to form a coherent and reasoned argument (yet long on gullibility, as your regular religion-hopping demonstrates, and always of the authoritarian and blindly dogmatic kind), I'd say it's anything but obvious.
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Given your maladapted, indeed downright warped personality and the intellectual hobbling which leaves you unable to form a coherent and reasoned argument (yet long on gullibility, as your regular religion-hopping demonstrates, and always of the authoritarian and blindly dogmatic kind), I'd say it's anything but obvious.
Oh it's obvious, just like the dick on your head.
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The way you post indicates that you have an inferiority complex, which I have to say is fully justified.
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Shakes,
Given your maladapted, indeed downright warped personality and the intellectual hobbling which leaves you unable to form a coherent and reasoned argument (yet long on gullibility, as your regular religion-hopping demonstrates, and always of the authoritarian and blindly dogmatic kind), I'd say it's anything but obvious.
The curious thing about a-o is that there is an intelligence at work - he's a sort of TW with proper sentences - and he's constructed an entire worldview that clearly makes sense to him, albeit that it's batshit crazy from top to bottom for the rest of us. It makes him unreachable I think with any sort of reason - no matter what, he'll point to his faith belief as the better answer (he told me that European countries are secular because of the "Deformation" for example) - so the intrusion of any kind of reality just cannot compute.
It's an odd spectacle, and I find it a little bit unsettling seen close up.
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he told me that European countries are secular because of the "Deformation" for example)
And yet this is the same Europe that he insists is Christian ...
It's an odd spectacle, and I find a little bit unsettling seen close up.
Very odd indeed :o
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The miracle was real.
Yeh right! ::)
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The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the true cross and tomb having been found by St. Helena, mother of the holy emperor Constantine. God revealed the place to her in a vision or dream.
Did God reveal the true holy foreskin to her as well? There were several hundred of those in circulation around Europe at one time, as well as many more of bits of the true cross.
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Did God reveal the true holy foreskin to her as well? There were several hundred of those in circulation around Europe at one time, as well as many more of bits of the true cross.
;D
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Dicky,
Did God reveal the true holy foreskin to her as well?
Definitely - haven't you heard? She had a tip off.
I'll get me coat...
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Dicky,
Definitely - haven't you heard? She had a tip off.
I'll get me coat...
OH DEAR! ;D ;D ;D
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Did God reveal the true holy foreskin to her as well? There were several hundred of those in circulation around Europe at one time, as well as many more of bits of the true cross.
Most was Protestant exaggeration. For instance, if you added up all the pieces of the true cross in existence you would have no more than a part of a beam of wood.
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And yet this is the same Europe that he insists is Christian ...
Very odd indeed :o
You have to forget modern secular governments but yes, they are the result of the Reformation (or Deformation, as I call it) and things like Luther's two kingdom doctrines. The soul of Europe, however, is indeed Christian. Neither is Europe just Protestant of Catholic Europe or western. Large parts of it are Orthodox. If only Theodosius were to come back from the dead.
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The miracle was real.
Nah.
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a-o,
You have to forget modern secular governments but yes, they are the result of the Reformation (or Deformation, as I call it) and things like Luther's two kingdom doctrines. The soul of Europe, however, is indeed Christian. Neither is Europe just Protestant of Catholic Europe or western. Large parts of it are Orthodox. If only Theodosius were to come back from the dead.
Europe has a "soul"?
Presumably you mean by that something like "much of European culture is influenced by Christianity", which is true. It's also true that much of European culture has been influenced by pre-Christian beliefs and by post-Christian beliefs. Why then pick one moment in time - ie, when Christianity was the predominant cultural influence - and determine that's the one true determinant of what Europe is?
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You have to forget modern secular governments but yes, they are the result of the Reformation (or Deformation, as I call it) and things like Luther's two kingdom doctrines. The soul of Europe, however, is indeed Christian. Neither is Europe just Protestant of Catholic Europe or western. Large parts of it are Orthodox. If only Theodosius were to come back from the dead.
The soul of Europe is secular. If you look at the broad brush of history, Christian Europe will be seen to be a short theological interlude between the Greco-Roman period and the Enlightenment.
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And you have to be the biggest tosser. So go away. I've never seen anyone with such a big chip on their shoulder and you really don't like anyone thinking that you're wrong. You're a joke (after all, you're a pagan) and everyone here knows it.
I have seen someone with a chip on his shoulder that is bigger than the entire cross of the criucifiction - you!
If you think my being pagan is a joke, you obvu=iously do not rrad the posts about yourself.
Go on, start a poll about who is the bigger joke, you or me. I will abide by the result, but would you? I doubt it!
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It is what happened.
You witnessed this yourself then?
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Not at all. You don't have to be a Christian to know the difference between a spell and a miracle. A spell is a form of words supposed to have magic power. A miracle is an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
What are prayers but words aimed at achieving supernatural things.
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The soul of Europe is secular. If you look at the broad brush of history, Christian Europe will be seen to be a short theological interlude between the Greco-Roman period and the Enlightenment.
If you look at history Christian Europe will be seen?
Sounds like fallacious wishing to me.
This is the dawning of the age of the neotenised numptie not mankind's forward march.
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What are prayers but words aimed at achieving supernatural things.
The difference is that the power is not in the words themselves, unlike a spell. With a miracle the supernatural event is the work of God alone.
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a-o,
The difference is that the power is not in the words themselves, unlike a spell. With a miracle the supernatural event is the work of God alone.
Which makes a kind of sense I suppose provided you've decided that there is a "God" in the first place - it's basically the same argument the Polynesian islanders made about the supplications they made to appease their volcano god. Why though would a god who knows what's best and who wants to do it only decide to do the right think provided his adherents ask for it on their knees and in the approved manner?
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The difference is that the power is not in the words themselves, unlike a spell. With a miracle the supernatural event is the work of God alone.
Which means that you don't understand what witches believe about spells.
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The difference is that the power is not in the words themselves, unlike a spell. With a miracle the supernatural event is the work of God alone.
Via Christ - our dieties work via the witch.
Of course the real difference is that witches don't claim to be supernatural beings.
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Via Christ - our dieties work via the witch.
Which is another way the two differ; as you say 'our deites work via the witch' whereas the Christian deity works through his disciples - cutting out the middleman/woman.
Of course the real difference is that witches don't claim to be supernatural beings.
Nor do Christians.
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Via Christ - our dieties work via the witch.
Of course the real difference is that witches don't claim to be supernatural beings.
Christ is God.
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Christ is God.
No, you're thinking of Eric Clapton.
Easy mistake to make though - beard, etc.
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Shakes,
No, you're thinking of Eric Clapton.
Easy mistake to make though - beard, etc.
Is Eric a dab hand at serving tapas to 5,000 fans too then?
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Shakes,
Is Eric a dab hand at serving tapas to 5,000 fans too then?
He moves in mysterious ways, man.
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No, you're thinking of Eric Clapton.
You're entitled to your opinion, Shakes, but it helps to have some evidence to support that opinion. I also notice that, as you can't respond to the substance of the post, you have to create a red-herring.
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You're entitled to your opinion, Shakes, but it helps to have some evidence to support that opinion.
That never stopped you before!
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That never stopped you before!
Sorry, I'd forgotten that you don't believe that documentation should be regarded as evidence, BR.
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You're entitled to your opinion, Shakes, but it helps to have some evidence to support that opinion. I also notice that, as you can't respond to the substance of the post, you have to create a red-herring.
That is a good one coming from you Hope, as you have no evidence to support your opinions on matters of faith! ::)
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Hope,
Sorry, I'd forgotten that you don't believe that documentation should be regarded as evidence, BR.
Hope balls up No. 5 - the straw man.
Of course "documentation" can be evidence. My driving licence for example is evidence that I have passed my driving test. A Harry Potter book on the other hand is not evidence that people can fly on broomsticks.
Your problem remains explaining why the bible should be considered more akin to the former than to the latter.
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You're entitled to your opinion, Shakes, but it helps to have some evidence to support that opinion.
As has already been pointed out ...
I also notice that, as you can't respond to the substance of the post, you have to create a red-herring.
There isn't any substance to the post in question. It's just the same old same old - more dreary, boring flat assertion unsupported by a scrap of evidence, of precisely the same kind we see here day in and day out.
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Sorry, I'd forgotten that you don't believe that documentation should be regarded as evidence, BR.
Still avoiding the documentation of Cronus eating his six children, I see.
As it happens I have documentation for my belief:
http://goo.gl/TYXjgH
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Sorry, I'd forgotten that you don't believe that documentation should be regarded as evidence, BR.
That's right. You do not understand logic or rational reasoning.
The document is evidence of what they believed, not of what actually happened.
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Still avoiding the documentation of Cronus eating his six children, I see.
As it happens I have documentation for my belief:
http://goo.gl/TYXjgH
Not to mention what he did to his dad.
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Sorry, I'd forgotten that you don't believe that documentation should be regarded as evidence, BR.
Another fallacy there Hope: who here has claimed that documentation can't be evidence?
Documentation is certainly evidence that something has been documented but it isn't necessarily evidence that the claims as documented are a true and accurate record of events or circumstances, and especially so where there may be bias involved given the attendant risks of mistakes or lies.
For example, it is know that what was documented by some police officers involved in the Hillsborough disaster wasn't accurate and involved both mistakes and lies. So I'll ask again, without much expectation of a sensible answer, how have you excluded the risks of mistakes or lies in the NT documentation?
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So I'll ask again, without much expectation of a sensible answer
You're catching on, Gordon ;D
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You're catching on, Gordon ;D
I suspect we know the answer is that he CANNOT rule out mistakes or lies. He just likes to assume they are true.
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Which is another way the two differ; as you say 'our deites work via the witch' whereas the Christian deity works through his disciples - cutting out the middleman/woman.
Of course the real difference is that witches don't claim to be supernatural beings.
Nor do Christians.
The subject under discussion in the above quotes was "miracles" not "prayer".
The miracles were performed by what Christians refer to as a supernatural being - Christ.