Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Khatru on February 20, 2016, 11:38:32 AM
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Believers seem to be so sure that their beliefs are correct while all the other belief systems are wrong. However, that certainty invariably comes down to an accident of birth.
People born in Saudi Arabia will tell us how great the Quran is. Whereas it's odds-on that those born in India will be singing the praises of Shiva.
There's no getting away from the fact, that for the vast majority of believers, parentage,culture and country of birth dictate just what their belief is.
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Believers seem to be so sure that their beliefs are correct while all the other belief systems are wrong. However, that certainty invariably comes down to an accident of birth.
People born in Saudi Arabia will tell us how great the Quran is. Whereas it's odds-on that those born in India will be singing the praises of Shiva.
There's no getting away from the fact, that for the vast majority of believers, parentage,culture and country of birth dictate just what their belief is.
Yes, that's right!
I once asked a vicar ( he was a believer) if he was born elsewhere whether he would have believed as he does.
He said probably not, but he hoped he would have believed in Christianity once he discovered it.
So I think quite a few believers realise that had they been born in another culture their beliefs would have been different.
Even within Christianity beliefs vary based on culture and location.
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Believers seem to be so sure that their beliefs are correct while all the other belief systems are wrong. However, that certainty invariably comes down to an accident of birth.
People born in Saudi Arabia will tell us how great the Quran is. Whereas it's odds-on that those born in India will be singing the praises of Shiva.
There's no getting away from the fact, that for the vast majority of believers, parentage,culture and country of birth dictate just what their belief is.
This is obviously true. But regardless of that, most humans have today developed values that are almost identical. So...whatever forces have been working to bring together humanity have managed to do a good job!
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This is obviously true. But regardless of that, most humans have today developed values that are almost identical. So...whatever forces have been working to bring together humanity have managed to do a good job!
Well yes, almost identical until I eat a steak n kidney pie 😉 ;)
( which contains cow)
🌹
Not everywhere shares more than basic values, some not even that. I think we have a tendency to assume others share our values, but do they?
The forces haven't done that good a job while half the world seems to be stoning or beheading the other half.
How many values do we share with Isis for example? Or a culture where men have more than one wife?
The forces don't seem to be doing that well, IMO.
If you want to see the difference in values just join one of those groups on Facebook and see the values expressed on there, it's international.
It makes me realise how different our values can actually be, and how much my values are a product of how I was brought up, and my location.
I want to say we share a common humanity, around the world, but do we?
People wouldn't get hurt like they do, if we did, surely?
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Do you realize how different people were just about 100-200 years ago? More so 1000-2000 years ago. Think about it.
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Do you realize how different people were just about 100-200 years ago? More so 1000-2000 years ago. Think about it.
Sriram
It's too big a world to do that.
100-200 years ago in the uk they were sending children to work in factories, and in some places in the world they still are and children are no better off today.
You can only do what you are saying in some countries where they have improved their standard of living.
Some places have gone backwards.
:(
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Also for all I know there might have been a civilisation 2000 years ago that had better values than many modern day ones.
The past doesn't mean they were more barbaric, necessarily.
People haven't changed that much, they can still be pretty awful. ( or good )
The greatest change is in technology and our ability to communicate and gain knowledge.
We, the human animal, hasn't changed, our setting and influences have changed.
In some places.
I don't have Victorian attitudes because I wasn't brought up then.
It's what I'm subjected to that has changed, I haven't physically changed or evolved.
Someone from 2000+ years ago, brought up in my setting, would not be different to any other 21st century person.
Put any of us back to grow up 2000 years ago, and we'd blend in, no difference.
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I think culture has quite a lot to do with belief, but not everything.
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Chances are that children born to godless atheists, will probably grow up to be godless. Floo doesn't count cause she sent her girls to Sunday school, as every good agnostic parent should do.
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Chances are that children born to godless atheists, will probably grow up to be godless. Floo doesn't count cause she sent her girls to Sunday school, as every good agnostic parent should do.
WRONG! ::) We didn't send our kids to church or Sunday School. My husband and I let them decide for themselves about religion, even though we were unbelievers. They opted to attend, it was their choice! My husband and I wished our parents had given us the choice instead of forcing it on us! >:(
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I agree wholeheartedly with the opening post.
Rose, I have often wondered about women having more than one husband at the same time, polyandry or polyamory (each well off financially of course and not all living under the same roof); a woman could have one husband for stability, one for extravagant evenings out and occasional weekends away, and the other for....well I've forgotten, but it was something interesting.
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Chances are that children born to godless atheists, will probably grow up to be godless. Floo doesn't count cause she sent her girls to Sunday school, as every good agnostic parent should do.
We're all godless Woody, get used to it.
ippy
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Believers seem to be so sure that their beliefs are correct while all the other belief systems are wrong. However, that certainty invariably comes down to an accident of birth.
People born in Saudi Arabia will tell us how great the Quran is. Whereas it's odds-on that those born in India will be singing the praises of Shiva.
There's no getting away from the fact, that for the vast majority of believers, parentage,culture and country of birth dictate just what their belief is.
Is that why there are more Christians in China or India than there are in somewhere like the UK?
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This is obviously true. But regardless of that, most humans have today developed values that are almost identical. So...whatever forces have been working to bring together humanity have managed to do a good job!
Having lived an worked outside of the UK for about 1/6th of my life, I'm not sure that I'd go as far as that, Sri. Values in the sub-continent remain very dfferent to values in the West, or the Far East.
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We, the human animal, hasn't changed, our setting and influences have changed.
I'm not so sure. 1st Century Judaism placed a huge emphasis on the family and its centrality to society: it is why Jesus spoke out against the people (especially the leaders) who flt that they could avoid paying to support their elders by arguing that they were giving that money to the God.
Whilst I would agree that the West has made huge strides forward in some aspects of life (eg education and human rights), I believe that it has made huge strides backwards in other areas, such as human rights and our treatment of the elderly.
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Whilst I would agree that the West has made huge strides forward in some aspects of life (eg education and human rights), I believe that it has made huge strides backwards in other areas, such as human rights and our treatment of the elderly.
Have human rights gone forwards or backwards or what?
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I'm not so sure. 1st Century Judaism placed a huge emphasis on the family and its centrality to society: it is why Jesus spoke out against the people (especially the leaders) who flt that they could avoid paying to support their elders by arguing that they were giving that money to the God.
Whilst I would agree that the West has made huge strides forward in some aspects of life (eg education and human rights), I believe that it has made huge strides backwards in other areas, such as human rights and our treatment of the elderly.
Progress is usually achieved by forward and backward steps, and as long as the forward ones overreach the backward, we will progress.
What we still need to realise is that our 'family' consists of the whole human race, not numerous groups squabbling among themselves about who is right or wrong.
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Progress is usually achieved by forward and backward steps, and as long as the forward ones overreach the backward, we will progress.
What we still need to realise is that our 'family' consists of the whole human race, not numerous groups squabbling among themselves about who is right or wrong.
The philosopher John gray thinks progress is an illusion of much secular humanism based on Christian thinking.
He cites Mans appalling attitude to nature and the environment
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This is obviously true. But regardless of that, most humans have today developed values that are almost identical. So...whatever forces have been working to bring together humanity have managed to do a good job!
We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that, to a biologist, humans are remarkable for their homogeneity, it seems we have a very narrow gene pool. So our separation over time and geography has led to a diversity of cultures, but underlying human nature is fairly homogenous, hence today we see a diversity of superficial beliefs and practices but a commonality of underlying values.
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We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that, to a biologist, humans are remarkable for their homogeneity, it seems we have a very narrow gene pool. So our separation over time and geography has led to a diversity of cultures, but underlying human nature is fairly homogenous, hence today we see a diversity of superficial beliefs and practices but a commonality of underlying values.
Yes...but our genes seem to get influenced remarkably by our environment. People have been so much separated geographically that they developed different cultures and different sense of identity. Geography, language, race and physical proximity are the major factors that probably kept people together.
Religions are the first and most powerful institution that broke these natural barriers and brought about a sense of identity removed from the above factors. Even today...religions bind people together with a sense of unity across the world.
Side by side a secular philosophy/spirituality is also developing that is making people more tolerant and less suspicious of other religions. This will lead to a greater integration among people of different religions in the days to come.
Its working out quite well, as I see it.
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The philosopher John gray thinks progress is an illusion of much secular humanism based on Christian thinking.
He cites Mans appalling attitude to nature and the environment
Well, at last we seem to be waking up to the damage we are doing.
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Have human rights gone forwards or backwards or what?
I think they've gone forwards in some ways, and backwards in others. For instance, where does the UNDHR talk about the idea that someone can be accused of a hate crime, on the grounds that someone else finds their opinions offensive?
Where, in the UNDHR, is the idea that privacy trumps public need to know mentioned?
Where is the way in which both communism and capitalism (perhaps even capitunism ;)) believe that they can prioritise the benefits of individuals and groups over those of others mentioned in the UNDHR?
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... but a commonality of underlying values.
Including some pretty horrendous ones. Greed, corruption, selfishness, violence, xenophobia - all spring to mind.
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What we still need to realise is that our 'family' consists of the whole human race, not numerous groups squabbling among themselves about who is right or wrong.
This is only partly true, Len. Whilst the whole human race is very important, there are areas of that whole for which we - as individuals and societies - have especial responsibilities. It is understandable that some developing antions regard the West as hypocritical when they see some of the ways we treat our own citizens whilst telling them how to treat their citizens.
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This is only partly true, Len. Whilst the whole human race is very important, there are areas of that whole for which we - as individuals and societies - have especial responsibilities. It is understandable that some developing antions regard the West as hypocritical when they see some of the ways we treat our own citizens whilst telling them how to treat their citizens.
And they are right!
Nevertheless, until everyone has the sense to see that we are all brother humans, we will get nowhere.
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Including some pretty horrendous ones. Greed, corruption, selfishness, violence, xenophobia - all spring to mind.
Yes I think that is right. Whilst we can point to ways in which many human societies are becoming more tolerant and civilised, I rather think that is mostly in the veneer; underlying human nature, be it good or bad, does not change in such short timescales as we measure civilisations in.
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Is that why there are more Christians in China or India than there are in somewhere like the UK?
There are more Christians in China and India simply because those two countries have the world's largest populations.
Not only are there more Christians in China and India, there are also more Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, policemen, doctors, nurses, electricians, plumbers, etc.
What you just said doesn't change a thing and the vast majority of believers on this planet will have their faith for no other reason than they were born into their particular culture.
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There are more Christians in China and India simply because those two countries have the world's largest populations.
Not only are there more Christians in China and India, there are also more Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, policemen, doctors, nurses, electricians, plumbers, etc.
What you just said doesn't change a thing and the vast majority of believers on this planet will have their faith for no other reason than they were born into their particular culture.
No doubt that our birth determines our religions as also our race, our language, culture, upbringing etc. However, there are two ways to view this fact depending on our basic premise about life in general.
1. If we think of life as an accident and all spirituality and religions as just human constructs with no fundamental connection to reality....then our birth is an accident and the cultures in which we are born also become an accident....and the religions we are influenced by are also an accident. Nothing profound about our beliefs.
2. If on the other hand, we think of life as having a spiritual base with physical life as just an external manifestation of internal forces...then our birth is not an accident. Life is predetermined and our destiny is chalked out beforehand. We are only watching and experiencing life like we watch a movie. In this situation, our birth and the religions that we are born to adopt are most suitable for our spiritual development. This includes those situations in which we choose to change our beliefs subsequently. We will naturally and automatically gravitate towards those situations and experiences that will help us develop further. We have no choice.
So...saying that our birth determines our religions doesn't say much by itself. Lot depends on what our basic understanding of life is.
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No doubt that our birth determines our religions as also our race, our language, culture, upbringing etc. However, there are two ways to view this fact depending on our basic premise about life in general.
1. If we think of life as an accident and all spirituality and religions as just human constructs with no fundamental connection to reality....then our birth is an accident and the cultures in which we are born also become an accident....and the religions we are influenced by are also an accident. Nothing profound about our beliefs.
2. If on the other hand, we think of life as having a spiritual base with physical life as just an external manifestation of internal forces...then our birth is not an accident. Life is predetermined and our destiny is chalked our beforehand. We are only watching and experiencing life like we watch a movie. In this situation, our birth and the religions that we are born to adopt are most suitable for our spiritual development. This includes the situations in which we choose to change our beliefs subsequently. We will naturally and automatically gravitate towards those situations and experiences that will help us develop further. We have no choice.
So...saying that our birth determines our religions doesn't say much by itself. Lot depends on what our basic understanding of life is.
All the evidence available so far points to your number one understanding as correct.
There is no evidence for number two, except the wishful thinking of those who won't accept number one.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the opening post.
Rose, I have often wondered about women having more than one husband at the same time, polyandry or polyamory (each well off financially of course and not all living under the same roof); a woman could have one husband for stability, one for extravagant evenings out and occasional weekends away, and the other for....well I've forgotten, but it was something interesting.
;D
As long as they all wash their own socks ;)
I have drawers full of men's odd socks as it is. ( that's with one hubby)
I think my washing machine eats them, or each pair has a dissolvable one.
I think it's a conspiracy by the sock manufacturers.
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All the evidence available so far points to your number one understanding as correct.
There is no evidence for number two, except the wishful thinking of those who won't accept number one.
Len...no it doesn't. There is plenty of evidence for number 2.
But we may not agree on what constitutes 'evidence'.....that's a problem we have to live with. :)
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No doubt that our birth determines our religions as also our race, our language, culture, upbringing etc. However, there are two ways to view this fact depending on our basic premise about life in general.
1. If we think of life as an accident and all spirituality and religions as just human constructs with no fundamental connection to reality....then our birth is an accident and the cultures in which we are born also become an accident....and the religions we are influenced by are also an accident. Nothing profound about our beliefs.
2. If on the other hand, we think of life as having a spiritual base with physical life as just an external manifestation of internal forces...then our birth is not an accident. Life is predetermined and our destiny is chalked out beforehand. We are only watching and experiencing life like we watch a movie. In this situation, our birth and the religions that we are born to adopt are most suitable for our spiritual development. This includes those situations in which we choose to change our beliefs subsequently. We will naturally and automatically gravitate towards those situations and experiences that will help us develop further. We have no choice.
So...saying that our birth determines our religions doesn't say much by itself. Lot depends on what our basic understanding of life is.
I fully accept that people will change their beliefs from one religion to another. However, that remains very much the exception rather than being the rule.
As for life/destiny being predetermined. Please feel free to provide scientifically verifiable evidence - just one piece of evidence is fine - it will be enough to destroy atheism.
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I fully accept that people will change their beliefs from one religion to another. However, that remains very much the exception rather than being the rule.
As for life/destiny being predetermined. Please feel free to provide scientifically verifiable evidence - just one piece of evidence is fine - it will be enough to destroy atheism.
Not sure I agree with you.
For some people their religion is more fixed but for a growing number of people, they are set free from the restrictions that western religions put on them.
I think Hinduism is much freer on what you can believe so it's much easier to evolve your beliefs and make that change.
I think that's why Sriram doesn't see it as the exception to the rule.
A person is always changing in Hinduism as its a journey, sometimes even with different stages of life and different outlooks.
I'm sure Sriram will set me right, if I'm wrong.
I suspect from a Hindu perspective, change isn't the exception to the rule, because it can absorb other wisdoms easily.
🌹
Also are we all not sharing certain stages of life together?
For example childhood, student/ single, marriage /children , old age
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/p/fourstages.htm
Not quite the same, but our lives ( unless we consciously choose to do different) are predetermined up to a point. None of which will destroy atheism, but it is one small bit of evidence.
Also some of the ideas about predestination and time come out of the wonderings about how things are and science. What is the " present" for example? And it's relationship to the past and future.
If they can enquire about multiverses etc time is not constant is it? It's the speed of light that's the constant?!?
I wouldn't rule out your destiny just yet, not in a multiverse that has multiple yous.
;)
🌹😉
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Not sure I agree with you.
For some people their religion is more fixed but for a growing number of people, they are set free from the restrictions that western religions put on them.
I think Hinduism is much freer on what you can believe so it's much easier to evolve your beliefs and make that change.
I think that's why Sriram doesn't see it as the exception to the rule.
A person is always changing in Hinduism as its a journey, sometimes even with different stages of life and different outlooks.
I'm sure Sriram will set me right, if I'm wrong.
I suspect from a Hindu perspective, change isn't the exception to the rule, because it can absorb other wisdoms easily.
🌹
Also are we all not sharing certain stages of life together?
For example childhood, student/ single, marriage /children , old age
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/p/fourstages.htm
Not quite the same, but our lives ( unless we consciously choose to do different) are predetermined up to a point. None of which will destroy atheism, but it is one small bit of evidence.
Also some of the ideas about predestination and time come out of the wonderings about how things are and science. What is the " present" for example? And it's relationship to the past and future.
If they can enquire about multiverses etc time is not constant is it? It's the speed of light that's the constant?!?
I wouldn't rule out your destiny just yet, not in a multiverse that has multiple yous.
;)
🌹😉
I think that here in the west we've reached a tipping point where people being born into a religious household are in the minority. The prevailing non-believing secularism is what makes us magnificently godless. So much so that people born in Western and Northern Europe are far more likely to be free from superstition and mumbo jumbo.
That pretty much holds with my original point in that people adopt the faith (or in this case, non-faith) of the parents/culture they're born into.
Not sure about the whole cosmology thing. That's one for the cosmologists, astro and quantum physicists.
Having said that, I'll still take science over religion. Science can be worked out and questions are welcomed. It's about evidence and a sound methodology - a transparent process where people can see tangible results and the working out behind it - you don't have to "accept it on faith"
Contrast that with religion which is based on emotional appeal, authority, fear, etc. It's all based on "accepting it on faith" and as for seeing the working out behind it - well, you can't do that because there isn't any.
Returning to cosmology...we've all heard of Dark Matter/Dark Energy:
We don't know what they are, perhaps the study of recently discovered gravitational ripples will provide answers. So, at this point in time they remain provisional hypotheses used to explain observed phenomena.
Because this is science, nobody is required to believe them on pain of eternal torture. What's more, if someone comes up with a better hypothesis which has been based on further observations, Dark matter/Dark Energy may get kicked into touch.
When does anything analogous ever happen in religion?
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Khatru,
What you say is true of only the Abrahamic religions.....not religions in general. Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism are not as rigid as these religions (as Rose mentions). There is considerable room for lateral thinking and personal choice. Many philosophies in these religions are actually atheistic.
Samkhya is atheistic. So are Jainism and Buddhism. Even Vedanta and Yoga do not talk of a personal God. All these are about personal development.
I have mentioned many times about different paths that we can choose to follow.
Maybe that's why many people in the west have chosen to follow Indian religions in recent years/decades....or developed western equivalents to these religions/philosophies.
And these Indian religions are not mutually exclusive with science. There is nothing in them that conflicts with science and its discoveries. They are not about God or the supernatural.
They just attempt to explain different aspects of the human personality and try to shift focus from the external material world... to the inner consciousness.
Lot of importance is given to the mind and Consciousness and they are not treated as just byproducts of the brain. That is essentially the difference between Indian philosophies/religions and material philosophies (science)....nothing more.
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For the weak this is true but for the few strong that arise they can usually break free. Lesser mortals just modify what they find to the best of their ability and hope it won't offend.
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Khatru,
What you say is true of only the Abrahamic religions.....not religions in general. Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism are not as rigid as these religions (as Rose mentions). There is considerable room for lateral thinking and personal choice. Many philosophies in these religions are actually atheistic.
Samkhya is atheistic. So are Jainism and Buddhism. Even Vedanta and Yoga do not talk of a personal God. All these are about personal development.
I have mentioned many times about different paths that we can choose to follow.
Maybe that's why many people in the west have chosen to follow Indian religions in recent years/decades....or developed western equivalents to these religions/philosophies.
And these Indian religions are not mutually exclusive with science. There is nothing in them that conflicts with science and its discoveries. They are not about God or the supernatural.
They just attempt to explain different aspects of the human personality and try to shift focus from the external material world... to the inner consciousness.
Lot of importance is given to the mind and Consciousness and they are not treated as just byproducts of the brain. That is essentially the difference between Indian philosophies/religions and material philosophies (science)....nothing more.
Fair enough, there's more to religion than the Abrahamic myths and superstition.
Not that I'm about to become a Sikh - after all, I know little of the Asian myths but I do find their belief systems far more preferable to Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
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Fair enough, there's more to religion than the Abrahamic myths and superstition.
Not that I'm about to become a Sikh - after all, I know little of the Asian myths but I do find their belief systems far more preferable to Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
There are hundreds of myths and stories in Hinduism. But most of us treat them as moral lessons and not as literally true stories. The philosophy that's at the base of Hinduism and other Indian religions is the guide.