Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Khatru on February 23, 2016, 10:22:32 AM
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I've heard Christians say that, having been superceded by the NT, the OT is redundant and its laws, rules and edicts are no longer applicable.
Apparently this is due to God/Jesus and some kind of sado-masochistic death/blood fixation.
Anyway. If, as I'm told, the OT laws are old hat, then what of the Ten Commandments? Have they also expired?
Before answering that question, can someone please confirm which list of Ten Commandments is the relevant list? The list from Exodus 20 or the list from Exodus 34?
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If you genuinely seek the answer to this then you could study Romans 7 and Galatians 3 xxx
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If you genuinely seek the answer to this then you could study Romans 7 and Galatians 3 xxx
So, if you're a true believer the twenty commandments are null and void.
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Christ said, "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven..." Matthew 5:17
Oh and about your failed contradiction, you seem unable to grasp that the second time Moses went up the mountain, was because the people had turned to paganism and in anger he smashed the first list. Well every time I put up a list, by the time I go to get what's on it, I've added and taken away. Yup, God had some more things for Moses and the people after their turn to paganism.
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Well every time I put up a list, by the time I go to get what's on it, I've added and taken away. Yup, God had some more things for Moses and the people after their turn to paganism.
So God got the list wrong the first time.
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Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them
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We're back on the "Bold type = right" roundabout again, kids!
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Christ said, "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven..." Matthew 5:17
So, you can still break the commandments and make it into heaven?
What about the "Honour thy father and mother" commandment? What if you father is Josef Fritzl? I'm sure you remember him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case
Do you honestly believe that Fritzl's daughters should still honour that man? If you do then your sense of morality, is pretty degenerate.
Oh and about your failed contradiction, you seem unable to grasp that the second time Moses went up the mountain, was because the people had turned to paganism and in anger he smashed the first list. Well every time I put up a list, by the time I go to get what's on it, I've added and taken away. Yup, God had some more things for Moses and the people after their turn to paganism.
Looks like God got it wrong.
"The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke."
Exodus 34:1
Except that the words on this second set were different from the first. This was despite the Lord of Hosts saying he would write the same words.
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We're back on the "Bold type = right" roundabout again, kids!
I feel it is fitting to highlight the word of God, to distinguish it from that of us mere mortals.
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I feel it is fitting to highlight the word of God, to distinguish it from that of us mere mortals.
Humans created the idea of a deity NOT the other way around, imo! Humans are the BIG CHEESE!
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I've heard Christians say that, having been superceded by the NT, the OT is redundant and its laws, rules and edicts are no longer applicable.
Apparently this is due to God/Jesus and some kind of sado-masochistic death/blood fixation.
Anyway. If, as I'm told, the OT laws are old hat, then what of the Ten Commandments? Have they also expired?
Before answering that question, can someone please confirm which list of Ten Commandments is the relevant list? The list from Exodus 20 or the list from Exodus 34?
I've never heard it said the ten commandments are redundant. We are taught that the OT should be read in the light of the knowledge exponated in the NT. Jesus added another commandment, to love one another. The ten commandments are great, common sense too. If we all treated others as we would like to be treated (my interpretation of 'loving one another'), there would be no problems!
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Humans created the idea of a deity ....
The contents of this forum aptly demonstrate that the Christian God does not relate to the human ways of thinking, hence very unlikely to have been created by humans.
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The contents of this forum aptly demonstrate that the Christian God does not relate to the human ways of thinking, hence very unlikely to have been created by humans.
Explain?
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The contents of this forum aptly demonstrate that the Christian God does not relate to the human ways of thinking, hence very unlikely to have been created by humans.
The contents of the forum demonstrate nothing of the sort, ::) the very opposite in fact, the Christian god is a very human fantasy, imo!
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I feel it is fitting to highlight the word of God, to distinguish it from that of us mere mortals.
Surely bynits very nature alone, the word of such an all powerful entity as the supreme cosmic mega being would be easily distinguishable from that of man?
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Jeremy,
Not at all, my lists weren't wrong either. But the people opted to turn to paganism and there were some additions in order. God didn't get it wrong, the people did.
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Khatru, the ten commandments are general. Most kids do honour their parents. No of course they shouldn't honour a parent, like Josef Fritzl, who abuses them - though it can take a while for them not to, because children naturally think parents are right until they start to think for themselves, and abused children are brainwashed by their abuser.
Yes people who have broken commandments get to Heaven. We've all broken commandments! Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and resolve not to commit them again but we are likely to do something else. Heaven is not full of people who've never done anything wrong in their lives.
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This sort of thread always draws the nut jobs out of the woodwork.
Sad lot all of em.
ippy
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Khatru, the ten commandments are general. Most kids do honour their parents. No of course they shouldn't honour a parent, like Josef Fritzl, who abuses them - though it can take a while for them not to, because children naturally think parents are right until they start to think for themselves, and abused children are brainwashed by their abuser.
Yes people who have broken commandments get to Heaven. We've all broken commandments! Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and resolve not to commit them again but we are likely to do something else. Heaven is not full of people who've never done anything wrong in their lives.
But it's full of people who've chosen the right god to worship?
Any belief system that ranks a paedophile who has raped innocent children the same as a newborn baby drawing its first breath has a problem. I use the term "ranked" to describe the fact that in a Christian's eyes, both newborn baby and paedophile are heading to hell unless they adopt "Christian truths"
Here's a scenario.........
Ten years down the line, our newborn baby is now a child who has fallen into the clutches of our paedophile. He tortures and rapes her while all the time she screams for him to stop. In the darkness of the room she is locked in, she prays to the Bible god to free her from this pain and suffering.
Sadly, no escape is forthcoming and month later, when the paedophile has tired of his captive, he explains that he is going to kill her. Yet again, she prays to the Bible god and yet again their is no answer. In her final, dying breath, she curses the god of the Bible.
The years roll on and our paedophile has enjoyed the company of many more children. Now they lie buried in unmarked graves while their families pray for their childrens safe return to this god who doesn't answer.
Then in later years and on his deathbed, the paedophile sees the error of his ways and prays to the Bible god pleading for mercy and forgiveness.
Just think how when you get to heaven you can stand beside the ex-paedophile and watch that little girl scream as she burns. What a day of rejoicing that will be, for in God's eyes she has earned her trip to hell and he has earned eternal reward.
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Any belief system that ranks a paedophile who has raped innocent children the same as a newborn baby drawing its first breath has a problem. I use the term "ranked" to describe the fact that in a Christian's eyes, both newborn baby and paedophile are heading to hell unless they adopt "Christian truths"
The idea that good people who aren't 'saved' will go to hell, yet a paedophile who converts will go to heaven is evil! >:(
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I have to make it clear that I do not believe good people, at any rate people who try their best, who are non believers, are damned. I've said this before, non believers and those of different faiths are, imo, ''saved'', for want of a better word (it isn't a word I generally use). I don't need anyone else to back me up on this but it is a fact that many Christians feel the same way.
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I don't need anyone else to back me up on this but it is a fact that many Christians feel the same way.
It is true that many people believe it, but there is no specific support given for the idea in Jesus' teaching.
Interestingly, what there is in his teaching is that people who claim to be his followers aren't necessarily going to be recognised as such by him on the Day of Judgement - and the suggestion that some who such 'followers' disqualify may be recognised.
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Any belief system that ranks a paedophile who has raped innocent children the same as a newborn baby drawing its first breath has a problem. I use the term "ranked" to describe the fact that in a Christian's eyes, both newborn baby and paedophile are heading to hell unless they adopt "Christian truths"
Oddly enough, your premise doesn't match Jesus' teaching, Floo. There may be those who call themselves Christians who believe this, in the same way that there are those who regard themselves as Christians who believe other things that don't match Jesus' teaching, but then there are Labour and Tory politicians who promulgate ideas that aren't generally regarded as Labour or Tory ideas.
The idea that good people who aren't 'saved' will go to hell, yet a paedophile who converts will go to heaven is evil! >:(
You seem to miss out a rather important element of this process - Floo. A paedophile might well be found guilty of the particular crime they had been charged with, and may well become a Christian (or Muslim, or whatever) whilst in prison, but what is that 'conversion' based on? Is it 'If I convert everything will be wiped clean, regardless of my attitude to my crime', or 'I acknowledge that I have committed a crime and that I have been punished justly. I am sorry for that crime and want to start over'? To go back to previous posts I've made here and elsewhere, the important point is the Day of Judgement when we face the deity and he either acknowledges or doesn't an individual's claim to being a disciple.
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"This sort of thread always draws the nut jobs out of the woodwork"
Oh how true ippy. You are here and this confirms that your statement is an absolute fact. Amazing that you actually produced a post that isn't like staring at a blank sheet of paper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0cZK1c0wpE
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It is true that many people believe it, but there is no specific support given for the idea in Jesus' teaching.
Interestingly, what there is in his teaching is that people who claim to be his followers aren't necessarily going to be recognised as such by him on the Day of Judgement - and the suggestion that some who such 'followers' disqualify may be recognised.
I think there is
"Which of those two did the will of his father?” They said unto Him, “The first.” Jesus said unto them, “Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots go into the Kingdom of God before you."
;)
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I couldn't help thinking that maybe the harlots and publicans (what's wrong with being a publican? :D), might be believers.
At the end of the day, only God can really judge a person. We certainly can't, only their actions.
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I couldn't help thinking that maybe the harlots and publicans (what's wrong with being a publican? :D), might be believers.
At the end of the day, only God can really judge a person. We certainly can't, only their actions.
:)
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I have to make it clear that I do not believe good people, at any rate people who try their best, who are non believers, are damned. I've said this before, non believers and those of different faiths are, imo, ''saved'', for want of a better word (it isn't a word I generally use). I don't need anyone else to back me up on this but it is a fact that many Christians feel the same way.
Sadly there are all-too-many Christians who believe that no matter how good a life you lead, you're damned unless you accept Jesus as the son of the universal cosmic mega being.
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Some Khatru but they are in the minority. We meet them on forums like this. In everyday life we rarely come across them unless we show some interest, then it pours out. People in the UK are, generally, moderate and shy away from extremism of any kind.
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Jeremy,
Not at all, my lists weren't wrong either. But the people opted to turn to paganism and there were some additions in order. God didn't get it wrong, the people did.
God gave Moses a list, then he gave Moses a different list. What explanation is there other than he got it wrong the first time?
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God gave Moses a list, then he gave Moses a different list. What explanation is there other than he got it wrong the first time?
In what way do the two sets differ?
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According to this link, it is only one theory that the other commandments were as a result of the golden calf.
http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/2252/why-are-the-ten-commandments-in-exodus-34-different
This one that they had different authors
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_Decalogue
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I couldn't help thinking that maybe the harlots and publicans (what's wrong with being a publican? :D)
What's wrong with being a harlot? ;)
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Not sure if this is true or not but I got it from the wiki link on Ten Commandments.
( my link in the post above)
" Adultery
Originally this commandment forbade male Israelites to have sexual intercourse with the wife of another Israelite, though Israelite men were not forbidden to have sexual intercourse with the slaves belonging to their own household. Sexual intercourse between an Israelite man, even if he was married, and an unmarried or unbetrothed woman was not considered as adultery.[103] This concept of adultery stems from the economic aspect of Israelite marriage, as adultery constituted a violation of the husband's exclusive right to his wife, whereas the wife, as the husband's possession, had no such right.[104]"
Interpretation of that commandment has changed, to become more acceptable.
:o :o
>:( >:(
>:(
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This is an odd commandment
20 You can save the life of a first-born donkey[d] by sacrificing a lamb; if you don’t, you must break the donkey’s neck. You must save every first-born son.
:o
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+34&version=CEV
That's from the second set.
( you can actually save the life of a first born donkey by not killing anything, including by not breaking its neck) ???
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Oddly enough, your premise doesn't match Jesus' teaching, Floo. There may be those who call themselves Christians who believe this, in the same way that there are those who regard themselves as Christians who believe other things that don't match Jesus' teaching, but then there are Labour and Tory politicians who promulgate ideas that aren't generally regarded as Labour or Tory ideas.
You seem to miss out a rather important element of this process - Floo. A paedophile might well be found guilty of the particular crime they had been charged with, and may well become a Christian (or Muslim, or whatever) whilst in prison, but what is that 'conversion' based on? Is it 'If I convert everything will be wiped clean, regardless of my attitude to my crime', or 'I acknowledge that I have committed a crime and that I have been punished justly. I am sorry for that crime and want to start over'? To go back to previous posts I've made here and elsewhere, the important point is the Day of Judgement when we face the deity and he either acknowledges or doesn't an individual's claim to being a disciple.
I was not referring to what Jesus was supposed to have said, which none of us know if it is accurately reported. I was referring to the way in which some extreme Christians interpret his sayings, coming up with a very unpleasant dogma indeed.
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I was not referring to what Jesus was supposed to have said, which none of us know if it is accurately reported. I was referring to the way in which some extreme Christians interpret his sayings, coming up with a very unpleasant dogma indeed.
But you always couch the post in terms of 'Christians' without the qualifying adjective that you use above. Sadly, this seems to be a trait of most of the board, and I include myself.
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Yes, there is a tendency to lump all Christians together and we're all different. Most of us are moderate.
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Yes, there is a tendency to lump all Christians together and we're all different. Most of us are moderate.
Which is good to know, but per #21 Hope seems to think that this moderation has no support in Jesus's alleged teaching.
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Moderate Christianity isn't backed up by the Bible - Evangelical Christianity is. Some Evangelicals are of a more liberal bent (Steve Chalke for example) but a problem faced by moderates when debating with others both within and without Christianity is that all they have to back up their arguments are their own thoughts and feelings, whereas the more hardline have it written down in black and white.
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Moderate Christianity isn't backed up by the Bible - Evangelical Christianity is. Some Evangelicals are of a more liberal bent (Steve Chalke for example) but a problem faced by moderates when debating with others both within and without Christianity is that all they have to back up their arguments are their own thoughts and feelings, whereas the more hardline have it written down in black and white.
And how are you defining 'Moderate' Christianity and 'Evangelical' Christianity, Rhi?
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Moderate Christianity isn't backed up by the Bible - Evangelical Christianity is. Some Evangelicals are of a more liberal bent (Steve Chalke for example) but a problem faced by moderates when debating with others both within and without Christianity is that all they have to back up their arguments are their own thoughts and feelings, whereas the more hardline have it written down in black and white.
Yes, this is interesting, since the Reformation really brought in the idea of sola scriptura, which many Protestant churches accept, i.e. that scripture is authoritative. I suppose it leads to the question of interpretation, although you do get the idea of 'self-authentication' also in Protestantism. There is also 'prima scriptura', which I think is more Anglican, where scripture is important, but so is tradition and experience.
But I doubt if anyone really adheres to scripture 100%, there is always some cherry-picking.
Incidentally, I think that in the Bible, a publican is a tax-collector.
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But I doubt if anyone really adheres to scripture 100%, there is always some cherry-picking.
I don't remember the title off the top of my head but a few years ago some American chap wrote a book about his experiment of trying to spend a year living according the laws of the Old Testament, insofar as he was able to within the limits of the laws of the land (which instantly knocks out shedloads). It was funny in parts, but of course in the end utter insanity.
Incidentally, I think that in the Bible, a publican is a tax-collector.
Well they're obviously a bunch of complete bastards.
No problem with harlots, though.
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Some Khatru but they are in the minority. We meet them on forums like this. In everyday life we rarely come across them unless we show some interest, then it pours out. People in the UK are, generally, moderate and shy away from extremism of any kind.
I accept that we don't have the rabid Christian fundies as found in the USA.
We may have moderate Christians but there's nothing moderate about the slaughter the Bible god has in store for humanity at some later date. As a moderate do you have a problem with that?
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I accept that we don't have the rabid Christian fundies as found in the USA.
We may have moderate Christians but there's nothing moderate about the slaughter the Bible god has in store for humanity at some later date. As a moderate do you have a problem with that?
Ah, you should have met freeminer.
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I've heard Christians say that, having been superceded by the NT, the OT is redundant and its laws, rules and edicts are no longer applicable.
Which Christians...names and quotes please.
Apparently this is due to God/Jesus and some kind of sado-masochistic death/blood fixation.
Apparently not...nothing apparent about anything you have written so far. Tell me where you copied and pasted it from. LOL.
Anyway. If, as I'm told, the OT laws are old hat, then what of the Ten Commandments? Have they also expired?
The 10 commandments are the law and teachings of the Prophets.
King James Bible
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Try reading the bible... could stop you making such magnificent blunders...
Before answering that question, can someone please confirm which list of Ten Commandments is the relevant list? The list from Exodus 20 or the list from Exodus 34?
What's the difference?
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
How about you stop asking questions which show you have no knowledge of the bible or what Christ taught and Christians believe. I think you make it all up yourself. I also think you sound very kid like. Does your mother know you post on forums? ;D
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How about you stop asking questions which show you have no knowledge of the bible or what Christ taught and Christians believe. I think you make it all up yourself.
Don't kid yourself that many other Christians agree with you about "what Christ taught" and what they believe. Ler's see how many jump to support your post. :)
I also think you sound very kid like. Does your mother know you post on forums? ;D
Is that the way Jesus taught you to behave, or did you make it up yourself?
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Don't kid yourself that many other Christians agree with you about "what Christ taught" and what they believe. Ler's see how many jump to support your post. :)
Is that the way Jesus taught you to behave, or did you make it up yourself?
I get the impression not too many Christians on this forum see it the way of Sass, now there is a surprise! ;D
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How about you stop asking questions which show you have no knowledge of the bible or what Christ taught and Christians believe. I think you make it all up yourself. I also think you sound very kid like. Does your mother know you post on forums? ;D
I know your ju-ju can't stand up to questions which is why you can't handle being asked them.
Calm down, Sass.
Haven't you got a ceiling light you need to mutter to?
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Don't kid yourself that many other Christians agree with you about "what Christ taught" and what they believe. Ler's see how many jump to support your post. :)
Is that the way Jesus taught you to behave, or did you make it up yourself?
Look how far you have fallen Leonard,
When shown to have no real knowledge of God and Christianity you stoop to such as the atheist.
But I have done nothing wrong. I have shown over and over again the truth of the bible in Christs own words.
We both know that. Good luck with your sarcasm and false accusations not even your reputation will hold up against God.,Christ and the truth of scripture.
As you come to near the end of your life, you become more distant from your own built up assurity of no God.
But the truth shows that there is a God and you are not strong enough to resist the truth that foolish self belief
will not protect you from judgment. Think on Leonard,. you may live to well over 100 but you are starting to waiver
in your unbelief. It shows...
Attacking me won't strengthen your position it will dwindle every one of your self assurance mechanisms away.
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I know your ju-ju can't stand up to questions which is why you can't handle being asked them.
Calm down, Sass.
Haven't you got a ceiling light you need to mutter to?
Is that it????? Do you really believe you can write anything that does not make me laugh at you and not with you?
It is a true saying... Give the person enough rope and they will hang themselves/..
Silly Billy's need to realise that though ip numbers / checks can be hidden the service provider can be contacted on the ip address and the persons name and address be found.
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Sass you talk twaddle, and I very much doubt if Jesus would be proud of the way you put unbelievers off Christianity in the way you do!
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Sass you talk twaddle, and I very much doubt if Jesus would be proud of the way you put unbelievers off Christianity in the way you do!
Christ, unlike yourself know a true Christian cannot be put off Christianity.
Just as true Christians know when the truth offends those doing wrong.
I guess you are the perfect example of those who throw stones and yet live in a glass house.
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;D
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Christ, unlike yourself know a true Christian cannot be put off Christianity.
Just as true Christians know when the truth offends those doing wrong.
I guess you are the perfect example of those who throw stones and yet live in a glass house.
Nice deployment of the No True Scotsman fallacy there, shame about the random, free association writing.
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Think on Leonard,. you may live to well over 100 but you are starting to waiver
in your unbelief. It shows...
I'm afraid that is just wishful thinking on your part, Sass. You are one of the posters on here that has made my disbelief in "God" stronger.
Attacking me won't strengthen your position it will dwindle every one of your self assurance mechanisms away.
I don't attack you, Sass, it is your hopelessly indoctrinated views I attack. I think you are probably a much nicer person than your posts paint you.
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Is that it????? Do you really believe you can write anything that does not make me laugh at you and not with you?
It is a true saying... Give the person enough rope and they will hang themselves/..
Silly Billy's need to realise that though ip numbers / checks can be hidden the service provider can be contacted on the ip address and the persons name and address be found.
Please go easy on those economy brain cells - they are not your friend.
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Please go easy on those economy brain cells - they are not your friend.
I only have half a brain cell, but it is the expensive branded designer version, not the cheap economy, breaks as soon as you fit it, type. ;D ;D ;D
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I'm afraid that is just wishful thinking on your part, Sass. You are one of the posters on here that has made my disbelief in "God" stronger.
So, you're not that different from Sass then, Len. You, but also others here, have made my belief in God stronger simply by dint of the weaknesses within your rguments
I don't attack you, Sass, it is your hopelessly indoctrinated views I attack. I think you are probably a much nicer person than your posts paint you.
Often your, and others posts also indicate a seriously indoctrinated understanding, Len. In a way, that is the problem - we have all, in one way or another, been indoctrinated - by parental/peer/societal pressure.
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So, you're not that different from Sass then, Len. You, but also others here, have made my belief in God stronger simply by dint of the weaknesses within your rguments
We (atheists that is) don't make arguments as such; we simply rebut yours, which is easy for the most part because they tend to be either fallacious or empty.
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We (atheists that is) don't make arguments as such;
Not all atheists are as gutless as that Nodrog, If I were an atheist I'd be dissociating myself from yer brand of ''Yeller''.
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we simply rebut yours,
I think that every theists who has debated with you Gordon has left with the same Butt as they went in with.....and your butt in a sling.
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Not all atheists are as gutless as that Nodrog, If I were an atheist I'd be dissociating myself from yer brand of ''Yeller''.
Hope seems to be referring to arguments that we atheists have apparently made: I'm just pointing out that kicking various versions of theobabble into touch isn't really making an argument. If anything it is akin to shooting fish in a barrel.