Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Sriram on February 26, 2016, 01:02:57 PM
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Hi everyone,
Here is an article from CNN about FLDS and Willie Jessop who has changed sides and is now the prime witness for the prosecution.
http://us.cnn.com/2016/02/25/us/jessop-flds-warren-jeffs-short-creek/index.html
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As "Thug Willie," he defended his prophet with pit-bull ferocity. But by the time we meet in a fourth-floor hallway at the Sandra Day O'Connor federal courthouse, Willie Jessop has changed sides. He's the star government witness, testifying on behalf of outsiders he once considered his enemies.
He carries himself like a man determined to unburden his conscience even if it means turning against everyone and everything he once believed in.
Jessop spent more than a decade as security chief and spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a polygamous sect that split from the mainstream Mormon church at the turn of the last century. As head of the "God Squad," he was perhaps the highest profile FLDS member -- with the exception of its prophet, Warren Jeffs.
At the civil trial, expected to go to the jury next week, the government is alleging that the FLDS runs Jessop's hometown like a theocracy, controlling virtually every aspect of life in Hildale, Utah, and its neighbor, Colorado City, Arizona.
Jessop's split from his church began in 2011 when authorities in Texas slipped him an audiotape of Jeffs sexually assaulting a 12-year-old girl in an FLDS temple.
The tape brought Jessop's world crashing down. He could no longer brush aside the investigations and sex charges as evidence of the government's religious persecution. He couldn't heed or protect a spiritual leader he considers a pervert. So he spoke out.
"People feel betrayed that their marriage was based on a fraud," Jessop says. "Here is somebody who says he speaks for God, and you find out he didn't. How do you deal with that?"
Many people leave with a heavy feeling of betrayal, Jessop says. "They're asking, 'Why did God let this guy do this to us? We trusted God.' Well, no we didn't. We trusted Warren."
Over the years, as men left or were driven off, women and children routinely were shuffled around.
"They've lost their identity; Warren Jeffs took away even their identity," Jessop says. "Do you go by your mother's name, your father's name, your church name? Who are you?"
"This indictment is not about religion," said U.S. Attorney John Huber in Salt Lake. "This indictment is about fraud."
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For information
Cheers.
Sriram
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So what's new? Pretty well all religions are a fraud.
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Why is this even on the Christian thread :o anyone here break bread with the Mormons ?
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I agree that there is nothing new about this, they are a horrible lot!
I can't help feeling a bit sorry for the mainstream LDS church who seem to be decent people but tend to be lumped together, in the minds of the ignorant at least, with the polygamous breakaway sects.
Just seen 2Corrie's post. The LDS do consider themselves to be a Christian group Corrie though I know many other Christians don't think so (my opinion: I don't know or particularly care). If enough posters feel strongly enough I suppose this thread could be moved to the Religion and Ethics bit. I'm happy enough for it to stay here.
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He probably wasn't wearing his magic underwear.
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Sad, reading this stuff, Sriram. Such sects are so lost.... and a million miles away from the teaching and Truth of Yeshua.
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Sad, reading this stuff, Sriram. Such sects are so lost.... and a million miles away from the teaching and Truth of Yeshua.
But of course they say exactly the same about you.
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Mormons do not believe that everyone else will be damned. That may have been taught at one time but certainly isn't part of their teaching now.
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Why is this even on the Christian thread :o anyone here break bread with the Mormons ?
Like it or not, Corrie, they are as much Christians as you are. They follow their interpretation of what the Bible teaches just as you do. You Christians are a motley crew! :)
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But of course they say exactly the same about you.
Knew I shouldn't have come on 'ere.... I'm in 'nap' mode!
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Knew I shouldn't have come on 'ere.... I'm in 'nap' mode!
It's true though, SP.
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Like it or not, Corrie, they are as much Christians as you are. They follow their interpretation of what the Bible teaches just as you do. You Christians are a motley crew! :)
Actually, Len, they don't follow "their interpretation of what the Bible teaches just as you do". They follow ther interpretation of the Book of Mormon which, save for mentioning Jesus at a couple of points, is as close to the BhavadGita as it is the Bible.
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Actually, Len, they don't follow "their interpretation of what the Bible teaches just as you do". They follow ther interpretation of the Book of Mormon which, save for mentioning Jesus at a couple of points, is as close to the BhavadGita as it is the Bible.
Look here :-
https://www.mormon.org/what-do-mormons-believe
This plainly states that they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, and therefore they are Christians.
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Actually, Len, they don't follow "their interpretation of what the Bible teaches just as you do". They follow ther interpretation of the Book of Mormon which, save for mentioning Jesus at a couple of points, is as close to the BhavadGita as it is the Bible.
Couple of points?
The number of references to Jesus clocks in at a little under 4,000. I'd love to know how many references there are to Jesus in the Bhagavad Gita [sic]. Given that the Gita was composed between two and five centuries before the alleged era of Jesus none would be a fair bet, but then, there's always the retro-fitting of prophecy, isn't there? ::)
They regard themselves as Christians believing in/following a Christian religion. That you don't recognise them as such is an irrelevance - they doubtless say about you what you say about them. That's Christianity for you - the one true faith of thirty-odd thousand denominations based on a story its alleged central figure couldn't get straight.
Pretty shoddy work for the so-called Almighty, I'd say - two thousand years of witless No True Scotsmanism. Poor show.
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The True Scotsman are known by the Lord ;D
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The True Scotsman are known by the Lord ;D
But that's what they all say, sunshine ;)
That's why religion - not universally; monotheism has always been the worst offender - has been one long round of "No, I'm Spartacus", only with even more swords than the film. And a far greater willingness to use them.
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I agree that there is nothing new about this, they are a horrible lot!
I can't help feeling a bit sorry for the mainstream LDS church who seem to be decent people but tend to be lumped together, in the minds of the ignorant at least, with the polygamous breakaway sects.
Just seen 2Corrie's post. The LDS do consider themselves to be a Christian group Corrie though I know many other Christians don't think so (my opinion: I don't know or particularly care). If enough posters feel strongly enough I suppose this thread could be moved to the Religion and Ethics bit. I'm happy enough for it to stay here.
why don't you care? Aren't we to contend for the faith :(
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Why is this even on the Christian thread :o anyone here break bread with the Mormons ?
Jesus probably would have.
He did things like that ;
The equivalent in his day, was the Samaritans.
;D
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The True Scotsman are known by the Lord ;D
Not this one!
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why don't you care? Aren't we to contend for the faith :(
I didn't say that I don't care about anything, I do not care about whether or not the LDS are true Christians. There's no point, imho.
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A bit more working together for the common good, and a lot less wibble about real believers v. false ones and one-true-wayism, and we'd have been living in a different world these past couple of millennia.
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I didn't say that I don't care about anything, I do not care about whether or not the LDS are true Christians. There's no point, imho.
👍🏻💐
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Thanks Rose. I'll put them in water before I go to bed.
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Christians, collectively, do more harm to Christianity than atheists can ever do.
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Sad, reading this stuff, Sriram. Such sects are so lost.... and a million miles away from the teaching and Truth of Yeshua.
There is NO evidence that any dogma, doctrine, sect or cult has the 'truth' including Christianity.
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There is NO evidence that any dogma, doctrine, sect or cult has the 'truth' including Christianity.
People blinkered by their religion can't see that.
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the Book of Mormon which, save for mentioning Jesus at a couple of points
What research did you do to come to that statement, Hope?
Let me guess, you were once half way up a foothill in Nepal when you over heard one farmer say to another 'See that Book of Mormon, it only mentions Jesus at a couple of points........'
I hope you put more effort into ensuring that the bible is accurate! ::)
2 Ne 31:10
And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
2 Ne. 25:19
For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Alma 5:44
For I am called to speak after this manner, according to the holy order of God, which is in Christ Jesus; yea, I am commanded to stand and testify unto this people the things which have been spoken by our fathers concerning the things which are to come.
2 Ne. 10:3
Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.
Alma 11:44
ow, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
..and there's more, lots more!
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3,925 references rather than "a couple of points." If we're being picky ;)
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What research did you do to come to that statement, Hope?
Let me guess, you were once half way up a foothill in Nepal when you over heard one farmer say to another 'See that Book of Mormon, it only mentions Jesus at a couple of points........'
Discussions with visiting Mormons in my own house, reading 20 or 25 books that deal with sects and cults, reading the Book of Mormon itself (though it took me some time as it either put me to sleep or had me writing notes in the margin)
I hope you put more effort into ensuring that the bible is accurate! ::)
I've probably spend many times more time studying the context and background, lt alone the text of the Bible, Seb, so I've certainly done that.
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3,925 references rather than "a couple of points." If we're being picky ;)
But references can be misleading, and none of the references in the Book of Mormon refer to him as God.
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Discussions with visiting Mormons in my own house, reading 20 or 25 books that deal with sects and cults, reading the Book of Mormon itself (though it took me some time as it either put me to sleep or had me writing notes in the margin)
I've probably spend many times more time studying the context and background, lt alone the text of the Bible, Seb, so I've certainly done that.
How can you ensure that Bible is accurate when there is no evidence to support its accuracy?
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Discussions with visiting Mormons in my own house, reading 20 or 25 books that deal with sects and cults, reading the Book of Mormon itself (though it took me some time as it either put me to sleep or had me writing notes in the margin)
Mark Twain did of course famously describe the Book of Mormon as "chloroform in print."
Nevertheless, the ever-witty Mr Clemens aside, the question persists as to why you think that a book you claim to have read (and made notes on - I hope they didn't disappear) mentions Jesus only at "a couple of points" when the actual number of references is almost 4,000, a few of these having been quoted by Sebastian Toe earlier.
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But references can be misleading, and none of the references in the Book of Mormon refer to him as God.
Did I just see a goalpost being moved ever so slightly?
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I do believe you did :D
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So because they mention Jesus Christ, they are Christian. That's too funny, and very stunted.
Now get educated.
http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952801
http://www.bible-truth.org/arelds.htm
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So because they mention Jesus Christ, they are Christian.
No - because of how they regard Jesus, not merely because they mention him.
Now get educated.
http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952801
http://www.bible-truth.org/arelds.htm
One lot of people with batty beliefs disagrees with another bunch of people with slightly different but no less batty beliefs. Stop the presses ::)
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If you actually compared the Jesus of the Bible to the Jesus of the Mormon church you wouldn't make such stunted mistakes, Shaker. Even their dead prophet Hinckley admitted that their Christ is not the same Christ as mine.
http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/mormonism.htm
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m04aa.html
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If you actually compared the Jesus of the Bible to the Jesus of the Mormon church you wouldn't make such stunted mistakes, Shaker. Even their dead prophet Hinckley admitted that their Christ is not the same Christ as mine.
http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/mormonism.htm
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m04aa.html
So what? That doesn't make you right and them wrong.
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I found this on the 'net, actually from the LDS church:
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/what-mormons-believe-about-jesus-christ
Seems much the same as other Christian beliefs.
However I also read that LDS believe Jesus was the product of God the Father - in the flesh - who had relations with a woman, his ''Goddess''. I don't know how true that is, it wasn't from 'the horse's mouth'.
I do know LDS differ from other Christians in their idea of God the Father, whom they believe was a mortal at one time.
So who knows? It would be good if we had a LDS poster on here, to answer our questions. There were a couple of really nice ones on the old BBC board (Katherine and Christian), but that was many years ago.
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But references can be misleading, and none of the references in the Book of Mormon refer to him as God.
As noted, that goalpost suddenly flashed a few miles to another pitch. But even here you're wrong, since the preface to the BOM does refer to him as 'one with the Father and the HG, one God', and there is another reference (the incident where the brother of Jared sees the hand of God (literally), where a voice from the skies says "I am the Father and the Son").
This is of course a case where we see the usual religious twistings and turnings to explain away the discrepancy - which traditional Christian Trinitarians also have to employ, since the Bible is by no means consistent on the question of the divinity of Christ (hence elaborate doctrines such as kenosis and the like).
However, since the BOM does quite virtually verbatim from the KJV at a number of points, and a version of the Sermon on the Mount is preached by Jesus to the 'Americans', the Mormons' Jesus has enough in common with the one of the older tradition to make the Mormons' claim that they are 'Christian' seem plausible.
Doesn't make their loopy beliefs any more convincing, or alter the fact that Joseph Smith was a skilled conman who ended up believing his own lies.
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What a very stunted argument you have Shaker. If the Jesus of the Bible is very different from the one the Mormons use, then I know the Mormon church is not Christian.
Did you even know that for most of the Mormon history, they rejected the name Christian. They didn't want it until they decided that if they used that name they would be more accepted and it would also help in their proselytizing.
Just do a little research Shaker and stop thinking out of your butt. Or just look at the comparison charts.
http://standupforthetruth.com/hot-topics/mormonism/
http://www.kc-cofc.org/39th/IBS/Tracts/bom1.htm
You could go around telling everybody that you are a good person, that doesn't prove that you are. What does the Mormon church preach, and is it in opposition to the Bible? Yes it is. The fact is you haven't a clue what they preach and you are willing to believe they are Christian cause they say so. Well they use to not say so.
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I copied the above links and read them, OMW. Both are from very biased, anti-Mormon sites. I reiterate that we can only get the truth about what LDS believe from LDS themselves.
It seems pointless to write something in order to tear down the belief of another, particularly when they do no harm. There's no reason why we cannot peacefully coexist.
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... or alter the fact that Joseph Smith was a skilled conman who ended up believing his own lies.
The sad thing being that he was clever enough to get a lot of other people to believe them. :(
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But references can be misleading, and none of the references in the Book of Mormon refer to him as God.
and you can say this because of all of your studying of the BoM?
Discussions with visiting Mormons in my own house, reading 20 or 25 books that deal with sects and cults, reading the Book of Mormon itself (though it took me some time as it either put me to sleep or had me writing notes in the margin)
I've probably spend many times more time studying the context and background, lt alone the text of the Bible, Seb, so I've certainly done that.
However despite all of that you seem to have missed some bits?
2 Nephi 26
[12] And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;
3 Nephi 5
[20] I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi. I have reason to bless my God and my Savior Jesus Christ, that he brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, (and no one knew it save it were himself and those whom he brought out of that land) and that he hath given me and my people so much knowledge unto the salvation of our souls.
3 Nephi 19
[18] And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.
Mormon 3
[21] And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God.
Ether 3
[14] Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
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Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God. It regards him as a human being.
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Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God. It regards him as a human being.
... which is itself a belief held by some denominations/groupings of religious believers you'd recognise as Christian, yes? Doubtless there's a term for it - there usually is.
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Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God. It regards him as a human being.
exactly like some Christians.
Your point?
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Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God. It regards him as a human being.
However, your original statement was "...the Book of Mormon which, save for mentioning Jesus at a couple of points". It does help if we just stick to the question of truth or untruth of statements made.
As for what mainstream Mormonism actually teaches, that is something different again - as you've rightly pointed out. Their general attitude to Christ is not the same as that of mainstream Trinitarian Christianity - even though there are some definitive statements in Joe Smith's concoction which expressly support the Trinitarian view (the Bible is just as fluid in this matter). There may even be some branch of the Mormon faith which does hold such views - I'm not sure about the FLDS' attitude toward such matters, though polygamy is certainly practised in the backwoods of Utah, and the odious Warren Jeffs has been convincingly shown to have been involved in all kinds of vile practices (as this thread suggests). His involvement in enforcing the marriage of Elissa Wall* makes harrowing reading.
There seems to have been a tendency to evoke a number of Old Testament beliefs and practices in even mainstream Mormonism, and the daughter of the revered Hugh Nibley claims to have resuscitated childhood memories of sexual abuse by her father, who seemed to be re-enacting some ritual relating to the Abraham and Isaac episode.
*Stolen Innocence by Elissa Wall
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Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God. It regards him as a human being.
Which he was.
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So because they mention Jesus Christ, they are Christian. That's too funny, and very stunted.
Now get educated.
http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952801
http://www.bible-truth.org/arelds.htm
You use the word Christian by way of reference to those who are most successful at imitating the personality of Jesus. I use the word to cover all those who believe in the imagined divinity of Jesus and who call themselves Christian
Of course, who cares what Jesus was supposed to have done? What matters is what people opt to do with their Christianity.
Christians appear to be wholly unable to assimilate this. I can pretty much guarantee that a Christian will post again to one of us that so-and-so (usually a Catholic but sometimes a Mormon and sometimes Hitler) isn't/wasn't a true Christian.
You know what? I have no interest whatsoever in what people who call themselves Christians believe, say or do as long as it has no impact on my life. Remember - a true/real Christian isn't whatever hypothetical person you happen to refer to - it's the Christians I encounter in real life.
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http://us.cnn.com/2016/03/07/us/flds-justice-department-warren-jeffs/index.html
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These are dark days for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the reclusive polygamous sect led by imprisoned prophet Warren Jeffs.
The U.S. Justice Department dealt a double blow to FLDS leadership on Monday:
In Phoenix, a federal jury found that church leaders controlled the municipal governments of two cities that discriminated against nonbelievers.
And in Salt Lake City, a federal magistrate ordered Jeffs' brother, Lyle, the so-called bishop of the two towns, to remain behind bars as he awaits trial in an alleged food stamp swindle and money laundering scheme.
Amos Guiora, a law professor at the University of Utah who has written extensively about the FLDS, called Monday's court developments significant, but he added that they should not be considered the beginning of the end for the FLDS.
"It signals that we are not going to tolerate intolerance," Guiora said. "We're not going to tolerate crimes committed in the name of religion."
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http://us.cnn.com/2016/03/07/us/flds-justice-department-warren-jeffs/index.html
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These are dark days for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the reclusive polygamous sect led by imprisoned prophet Warren Jeffs.
The U.S. Justice Department dealt a double blow to FLDS leadership on Monday:
In Phoenix, a federal jury found that church leaders controlled the municipal governments of two cities that discriminated against nonbelievers.
And in Salt Lake City, a federal magistrate ordered Jeffs' brother, Lyle, the so-called bishop of the two towns, to remain behind bars as he awaits trial in an alleged food stamp swindle and money laundering scheme.
Amos Guiora, a law professor at the University of Utah who has written extensively about the FLDS, called Monday's court developments significant, but he added that they should not be considered the beginning of the end for the FLDS.
"It signals that we are not going to tolerate intolerance," Guiora said. "We're not going to tolerate crimes committed in the name of religion."
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Looks like it's end times indeed for this particular Christian sect.