Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Khatru on March 08, 2016, 10:58:45 AM
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Going by what I've heard Christians say, the attitude of their god towards his children when they misinterpret his mixed messages is "Fuck them - they disobeyed".
Picture a room full of children whose parents tell them to stay put in the room while they go out for a few hours leaving them unattended. Upon their return, over 90% of those children have disobeyed their parents and have left the room to go and play on the dual carriageway.
When the parents get back, the kids are out there in the road, in terrible pain and suffering horrific injuries as the cars repeatedly hit them.
You see, these kids are immortal and they cannot die. They are destined to spend eternity in pain and agony as metal tears into flesh and bone. Yet despite their screams, their supposedly loving parents say "Fuck them - it's their fault".
If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.
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If the creation story is true, it would appear that god deliberately created humans and their nature so it could enjoy watching their suffering for as long as it pleased it to do so! >:(
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I've never come across Christians who think or talk like that Khatru. On the contrary, they usually make allowances for people and try to see the good in everyone, regardless of what they do.
It might be a good idea to widen your circle of acquaintance somewhat.
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I've never come across Christians who think or talk like that Khatru. On the contrary, they usually make allowances for people and try to see the good in everyone, regardless of what they do.
It might be a good idea to widen your circle of acquaintance somewhat.
I have met some Christians like the ones you describe, which include my own three girls. :) Sadly I have met all too many of the other sort who just love condemning those who don't see it their way to hell. >:( There are a few of them on R&E!
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Oh don't make such a fuss it's only a nativity play, the children enjoy the beginings of their indoctrination into thinking they will be recieving love from this mysterious god figure.
That's where it often starts
ippy
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I've never come across Christians who think or talk like that Khatru. On the contrary, they usually make allowances for people and try to see the good in everyone, regardless of what they do.
Here's one who thinks/talks just like that....
Like you get a choice...LOL... That's right you had a choice and unless you make the right one that is where people go... :(
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I have met some Christians like the ones you describe, which include my own three girls. :) Sadly I am met all too many of the other sort who just love condemning those who don't see it their way to hell. >:( There are a few of them on R&E!
You haven't met the ones on R&E floo. Forums are infamous for bringing the extremists out of the woodwork and for people saying whatever they feel like saying.
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Well you haven't, neither have I. I haven't met you or Shaker or anyone else on here either, nor have you met me.
To reiterate, forums bring out the worst in people and all the extremists come out of the woodwork because they can say things on the internet that they would not say in real life.
If you wander into most of the churches in your vicinity you will not come across the same attitudes that you encounter on forums.
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Khatru,
Your purpose for being on R&E is to attack the Christian faith and God. That is what your life is about, that is what your atheism has given you, so I take your OP with that in mind. Your post singling out Sass is pathetic, considering your mission here.
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Well you haven't, neither have I. I haven't met you or Shaker or anyone else on here either, nor have you met me.
To reiterate, forums bring out the worst in people and all the extremists come out of the woodwork because they can say things on the internet that they would not say in real life.
If you wander into most of the churches in your vicinity you will not come across the same attitudes that you encounter on forums.
I have encountered those attitudes all too frequently in real life unfortunately!
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Khatru,
Your purpose for being on R&E is to attack the Christian faith and God. That is what your life is about, that is what your atheism has given you, so I take your OP with that in mind. Your post singling out Sass is pathetic, considering your mission here.
Spoken like someone who cannot refute my post.
You need to choose a better god to worship. Have you thought of Satan?
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Spoken like someone who cannot refute my post.
You need to choose a better god to worship. Have you thought of Satan?
;D Satan cannot be any worse! ;D
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;D Satan cannot be any worse! ;D
He kills a lot less people than the Bible god does!
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I have encountered those attitudes all too frequently in real life unfortunately!
Recently?
I too have occasionally encountered such attitudes but did not stick around! In order to encounter them now I would have to seek out an obscure church or become closer acquainted with people who give out leaflets, and sometimes speak, in shopping centres. I choose not to, did my investigations a long time ago and know that flavour of Christianity is not for me. I'll go so far as to say it isn't right but that is my opinion, I believe in free speech and freedom of religious expression so wouldn't gag anyone. However no-one has the right to instill fear into children and youngsters. Nowadays, the law protects the vulnerable in that regard - as far as it can.
It is unlikely you will come across fundamentalist evangelical preaching very often in real life, floo. If you do you have the choice to reject it. It is quite tempting to get involved and ask questions though, there is a certain fascination! I used to be like that but cannot imagine being so tempted now.
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Oh don't make such a fuss it's only a nativity play, the children enjoy the beginings of their indoctrination into thinking they will be recieving love from this mysterious god figure.
That's where it often starts
ippy
Oh No, more manger danger cobblers.
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Oh No, more manger danger cobblers.
Probably where your indoctrination into religion started, like loads of children before you.
Of course it's harmless, it's only a nativity play, I must be imagining things.
ippy
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Probably where your indoctrination into religion started, like loads of children before you.
Of course it's harmless, it's only a nativity play, I must be imagining things.
ippy
Yes, I think you are.
Children often enjoy the dressing up and the whole Christmas thing, it teaches them about what Christmas and the Christmas story is about.
A bit like them having fun at Easter by creating Easter cards and eggs and learning what is behind Easter for a lot of people.
It doesn't ' make' them anything.
It just gives them a break from the normal mundane things.
It could also be fun for them to explore the other side of things ( Yule logs, Christmas trees, Santa, Easter eggs, fluffy chicks, Easter bunnies.
Why not?
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Never had nativity plays at my primary school thank goodness - no tea towels for me.
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Never had nativity plays at my primary school thank goodness - no tea towels for me.
That's a shame.
My two had nativity plays and their school was secular. They enjoyed it, it didn't make them Christian.
I think to much fuss is made about it, the children just enjoy the dressing up and tinsel.
i used to get lumbered with the majority being something like a tree ( although what a forest is doing in a stable, I have no idea,) it did give everyone an opportunity to join in.
I see no harm at all in sharing with children what some of our festivals mean, and what's behind them.
It's just a part of our history.
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Going by what I've heard Christians say, the attitude of their god towards his children when they misinterpret his mixed messages is "Fuck them - they disobeyed".
For one thing, what mixed messages would those be, Khat? For a second, the Gospel story would seem to be more to do with 'OK, they stuffed up, so I'll give them a way to rebuild the relationship that they have broken' - somewhat the opposite of what you seem to want the message to be.
If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.
I suspect that not only do most believers not even accept your imitial premis, but then also acknowledge God's wish for damage caused by disobedience to be repairable. Thankfully, most of us aren't like you - if I was, I think I might have done away with myself by now.
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Going by what I've heard Christians say, the attitude of their god towards his children when they misinterpret his mixed messages is "Fuck them - they disobeyed".
Picture a room full of children whose parents tell them to stay put in the room while they go out for a few hours leaving them unattended. Upon their return, over 90% of those children have disobeyed their parents and have left the room to go and play on the dual carriageway.
When the parents get back, the kids are out there in the road, in terrible pain and suffering horrific injuries as the cars repeatedly hit them.
You see, these kids are immortal and they cannot die. They are destined to spend eternity in pain and agony as metal tears into flesh and bone. Yet despite their screams, their supposedly loving parents say "Fuck them - it's their fault".
If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.
God steps in and saves people from the consequences of their disobedience, which he takes on Himself.
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Yes, I think you are.
Children often enjoy the dressing up and the whole Christmas thing, it teaches them about what Christmas and the Christmas story is about.
A bit like them having fun at Easter by creating Easter cards and eggs and learning what is behind Easter for a lot of people.
It doesn't ' make' them anything.
It just gives them a break from the normal mundane things.
It could also be fun for them to explore the other side of things ( Yule logs, Christmas trees, Santa, Easter eggs, fluffy chicks, Easter bunnies.
Why not?
Of course you're right Rose no really sophisticated religious organisation would even consider such a thing as gently drawing in new candidates in any way they can, or develop various ways doing so by trial and error probably over the last couple of thousand years, I must be one of those conspiracy theorists, after all nativity plays are only a bit of fun for the children of the next generation.
ippy
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If the creation story is true, it would appear that god deliberately created humans and their nature so it could enjoy watching their suffering for as long as it pleased it to do so! >:(
I think the important word in Floo's post is the very first word. If, contrary to her supposition, the Creation story is a theological treatment of the purpose of the human species, then the nature of that god changes dramatically. I realise that Floo's opinion is coloured by the way she was brought up, and therefore differs - possibly in the extreme - from my opinion and that of many other Christians on the matter - so I think that we need to be careful that we don't assume an extreme understanding to be the mainstream understanding.
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Spoken like someone who cannot refute my post.
Khat, it is hard to refute a post when it has so little content. All it is is aimless and uneducated ramblings. I had thought of using the adjective 'mendacious', but that would have implied a sense of purpose, which seems to be sadly lacking in many of your posts.
You need to choose a better god to worship. Have you thought of Satan?
You are welkcome t choose Satan, but having seen the effects he has on people, I'd steer well clear of him.
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I think the important word in Floo's post is the very first word. If, contrary to her supposition, the Creation story is a theological treatment of the purpose of the human species, then the nature of that god changes dramatically. I realise that Floo's opinion is coloured by the way she was brought up, and therefore differs - possibly in the extreme - from my opinion and that of many other Christians on the matter - so I think that we need to be careful that we don't assume an extreme understanding to be the mainstream understanding.
Oh for crying out loud Hope, my opinion is NOTHING to do with my upbringing, but the reading of the Bible, which I continue to do! It was when I actually read that book from cover to cover, and not the selected verses from my childhood that I realised much of it was a fairy story with no credibility.
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Of course you're right Rose no really sophisticated religious organisation would even consider such a thing as gently drawing in new candidates in any way they can, or develop various ways doing so by trial and error probably over the last couple of thousand years, I must be one of those conspiracy theorists, after all nativity plays are only a bit of fun for the children of the next generation.
ippy
Yes they are, because at primary school age they are hardly candidates, especially if parents are non religious.
Having a nativity play isn't going to turn someone into a Christian, too much fuss is made of it.
I took my two to church and Sunday school at primary school age, they loved the whole Christmas atmosphere and the whole magical Christmas thing, with angels etc.
They were the ones that wanted to go, because they wanted to know what it was all about, so rather than explain I took them and they loved it.
When they wanted to stop going as they got older, it was ok.
No problems.
I now have two adults sons who are both atheist, the joining in and fun they had even going to church,at that early age didn't make them Christians.
So a few isolated nativity plays at a young age, isn't going to have a massive influence.
What does seem to have a bigger influence is if the parents force children to attend church when they don't want to go, and coax them into belief.
Its the home life, that does it IMO, not a random nativity play at Christmas.
Lots of parents who want a traditional nativity play in school don't do so because they believe in it, but because they enjoyed it when they were at school and they want their own child to experience it.
It's more of a tradition.
I think people take it far to seriously.
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Going by what I've heard Christians say, the attitude of their god towards his children when they misinterpret his mixed messages is "Fuck them - they disobeyed".
Picture a room full of children whose parents tell them to stay put in the room while they go out for a few hours leaving them unattended. Upon their return, over 90% of those children have disobeyed their parents and have left the room to go and play on the dual carriageway.
When the parents get back, the kids are out there in the road, in terrible pain and suffering horrific injuries as the cars repeatedly hit them.
You see, these kids are immortal and they cannot die. They are destined to spend eternity in pain and agony as metal tears into flesh and bone. Yet despite their screams, their supposedly loving parents say "Fuck them - it's their fault".
If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.
I am a believer and think what a load of old rubbish. Glad I am not an atheist. I would never want to be held responsible for having written such a piece of garbage showing complete ignorance toward God, the bible and Christianity.
What a useless piece of writing. Nothing in it represents anything to with God, his love and his children.
What worries me is a person could write such junk and such utter hateful things in the first instance.
All false assumption and absolutely nothing by means of evidence.
What I would say it refrain from writing till you know what you are talking about.
:o
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I am a believer and think what a load of old rubbish. Glad I am not an atheist. I would never want to be held responsible for having written such a piece of garbage showing complete ignorance toward God, the bible and Christianity.
What a useless piece of writing. Nothing in it represents anything to with God, his love and his children.
What worries me is a person could write such junk and such utter hateful things in the first instance.
All false assumption and absolutely nothing by means of evidence.
What I would say it refrain from writing till you know what you are talking about.
:o
Oh Sass, you are HILARIOUS, many of us consider your offerings are garbage! ;D
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For one thing, what mixed messages would those be, Khat?
Those that appear in the contradictions found throughout the Bible. The ones that you often try to explain away as only being understandable to those who read the proper translation.
Question: Are we judged by our faith?
Answer: For by grace are ye saved through faith....not of works.
Ephesians 2:8,9
Or.....
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:12
For a second, the Gospel story would seem to be more to do with 'OK, they stuffed up, so I'll give them a way to rebuild the relationship that they have broken' - somewhat the opposite of what you seem to want the message to be.
You're missing the point of my post which was that Christians will always blame mankind - even if their god tortures them for all eternity, it's always the fault of humans.
If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.
What's telling is that not one believer has tackled the issue head-on and stated whether the parents or children are at fault. No doubt they don't like what it is their beliefs are showing them up to be.
I suspect that not only do most believers not even accept your imitial premis, but then also acknowledge God's wish for damage caused by disobedience to be repairable. Thankfully, most of us aren't like you - if I was, I think I might have done away with myself by now.
Your god wants to save people from himself?
Tell me, how many will he end up saving in the long run? Impossible to answer, I know. Tell me this then. How do the numbers of those that your god saves from himself stack up against those your god fails to save?
Not good is it?
Your god wants to save humanity from himself but what kind of omniscient, omnipotent deity can't even get what he wants?
Perhaps a deity that doesn't even exist.
If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.
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Oh No, more manger danger cobblers.
Whoops! Nearly missed this.
I'll just take this opportunity to say that "The War on Christmas" doesn't actually exist.
X'mas still means plenty to billions of people who don't buy into Jesus and the Christian ju-ju. Yeah, I know, there are also plenty of people who happen to think that X'mas without Jesus is not X'mas. Of course, they're out of touch .
There are even people who are so deeply entrenched in their mumbo jumbo that they can't even be altruistic without their Jesus fellow. Of course, they're not just out of touch - they're dicks.
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Khat, it is hard to refute a post when it has so little content. All it is is aimless and uneducated ramblings. I had thought of using the adjective 'mendacious', but that would have implied a sense of purpose, which seems to be sadly lacking in many of your posts.
Say what you like, Hope but the fact remains that not one believer (I know there aren't many of you) has dared to face up to the point I raised. That says it all really.
You are welkcome t choose Satan, but having seen the effects he has on people, I'd steer well clear of him.
Someone somewhere has tallied up all the deaths in the Bible that have been attributed to the Bible god. Then they carried out the same exercise but this time they counted up all the deaths attributed to Satan.
Care to hazard a guess at how the body count figures stack up?
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I am a believer and think what a load of old rubbish. Glad I am not an atheist. I would never want to be held responsible for having written such a piece of garbage showing complete ignorance toward God, the bible and Christianity.
What a useless piece of writing. Nothing in it represents anything to with God, his love and his children.
What worries me is a person could write such junk and such utter hateful things in the first instance.
All false assumption and absolutely nothing by means of evidence.
What I would say it refrain from writing till you know what you are talking about.
:o
Oh look! Here's another believer who runs away from the issue.
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Yes they are, because at primary school age they are hardly candidates, especially if parents are non religious.
Having a nativity play isn't going to turn someone into a Christian, too much fuss is made of it.
I took my two to church and Sunday school at primary school age, they loved the whole Christmas atmosphere and the whole magical Christmas thing, with angels etc.
They were the ones that wanted to go, because they wanted to know what it was all about, so rather than explain I took them and they loved it.
When they wanted to stop going as they got older, it was ok.
No problems.
I now have two adults sons who are both atheist, the joining in and fun they had even going to church,at that early age didn't make them Christians.
So a few isolated nativity plays at a young age, isn't going to have a massive influence.
What does seem to have a bigger influence is if the parents force children to attend church when they don't want to go, and coax them into belief.
Its the home life, that does it IMO, not a random nativity play at Christmas.
Lots of parents who want a traditional nativity play in school don't do so because they believe in it, but because they enjoyed it when they were at school and they want their own child to experience it.
It's more of a tradition.
I think people take it far to seriously.
Of course you're right Rose no really sophisticated religious organisation would even consider such a thing as gently drawing in new candidates in any way they can, or develop various ways doing so by trial and error probably over the last couple of thousand years, I must be one of those conspiracy theorists, after all nativity plays are only a bit of fun for the children of the next generation.
As you can see I didn't even hint nativity on it's own.
My two boys are not atheists, they don't even consider meaningless beliefs, they just have no place in their lives for them, what would they need religion for or have any use for it anyway?
I didn't withdraw my children from any school areas when they were there, the youngest one was pressured to go and wave a flag at Betty when she was opening something at Liverpool St station, London, he said that he didn't want to go, my wife spoke to the teacher about it and he didn't go and that was about the only bit where we didn't actually withdraw him from flag waving, we only backed him up.
ippy
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Oh for crying out loud Hope, my opinion is NOTHING to do with my upbringing, but the reading of the Bible, which I continue to do! It was when I actually read that book from cover to cover, and not the selected verses from my childhood that I realised much of it was a fairy story with no credibility.
Yet you still seem to reference certain passages that scholars and believers have long believed to be theological or poetic - oe whatever - as if they are historical. I would suggest that this pattern of interpretation has a great deal to do with your childhood upbringing.
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Say what you like, Hope but the fact remains that not one believer (I know there aren't many of you) has dared to face up to the point I raised. That says it all really.
And that point would be ...?
Someone somewhere has tallied up all the deaths in the Bible that have been attributed to the Bible god. Then they carried out the same exercise but this time they counted up all the deaths attributed to Satan.
Care to hazard a guess at how the body count figures stack up?
Not sure; last time I heard this kind of stat. being quoted (which was probably 30 or 40 years ago) it was somewhere in the region of 1000 to 1 (Satan : God)
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Yet you still seem to reference certain passages that scholars and believers have long believed to be theological or poetic - oe whatever - as if they are historical. I would suggest that this pattern of interpretation has a great deal to do with your childhood upbringing.
You can suggest what you like, but we will have to agree to differ!
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Of course you're right Rose no really sophisticated religious organisation would even consider such a thing as gently drawing in new candidates in any way they can, or develop various ways doing so by trial and error probably over the last couple of thousand years, I must be one of those conspiracy theorists, after all nativity plays are only a bit of fun for the children of the next generation.
As you can see I didn't even hint nativity on it's own.
My two boys are not atheists, they don't even consider meaningless beliefs, they just have no place in their lives for them, what would they need religion for or have any use for it anyway?
I didn't withdraw my children from any school areas when they were there, the youngest one was pressured to go and wave a flag at Betty when she was opening something at Liverpool St station, London, he said that he didn't want to go, my wife spoke to the teacher about it and he didn't go and that was about the only bit where we didn't actually withdraw him from flag waving, we only backed him up.
ippy
I think gently trying to draw in new candidates isn't working, and hasn't for quite a while.
I'm not going to be concerned about the odd nativity play.
How do you know your boys haven't even considered what you consider meaningless beliefs?
Mine just rejected them, probably because some Christians can behave a bit strangely sometimes, which doesn't help their case.