Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Étienne d'Angleterre on March 13, 2016, 08:01:17 AM
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For those that believe that this can occur, what is your strongest example to support it?
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For those that believe that this can occur, what is your strongest example to support it?
I think prayer can have a placebo effect from time to time. There is no evidence any deity is on the end of a prayer line. But just supposing there was, why doesn't it respond positively to all prayers for healing, instead of very few? Wait for the excuses made on god's behalf! ::)
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I think prayer can have a placebo effect from time to time. There is no evidence any deity is on the end of a prayer line. But just supposing there was, why doesn't it respond positively to all prayers for healing, instead of very few? Wait for the excuses made on god's behalf! ::)
I think it certainly could have an effect in that sense. I wouldn't call it prayer but I sometimes do something similar when very stressed and it seems to work. Almost as if by talking to myself I can work things through.
I am interested in hearing about all kinds of examples though.
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I refer you to the prayer thread and Alan Burns prayer requests for his very unfortunate friend Becky.
That poor lady has been put through hell for many months now. When there is a little improvement in her condition god is praised to the skies, when her condition deteriorates god isn't blamed! :o
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For those that believe that this can occur, what is your strongest example to support it?
For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.
Is anybody's behaviour that predictable? I think not.
A Christian approach to healing I would have thought is to be expectant but not have expectations.
Wholeness or healing in Christianity is in the relationship with God.
Conversations like this usually turn either to placebo effect,which can only , in methodological materialism be a scientific observation and not an ontological conclusion,or to amputation.
If God has made a universe essentially nature has a way which is acceptable to God and in which God only rarely intervenes in a way that majorly overturns that and that explains why we never see resurrections or limb restorations although a few are reported.
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For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.
Is anybody's behaviour that predictable? I think not.
A Christian approach to healing I would have thought is to be expectant but not have expectations.
Wholeness or healing in Christianity is in the relationship with God.
Conversations like this usually turn either to placebo effect,which can only , in methodological materialism be a scientific observation and not an ontological conclusion,or to amputation.
If God has made a universe essentially nature has a way which is acceptable to God and in which God only rarely intervenes in a way that majorly overturns that and that explains why we never see resurrections or limb restorations although a few are reported.
God's behaviour might be acceptable to it, but it is totally unacceptable to any reasonable person! >:(
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God's behaviour might be acceptable to it, but it is totally unacceptable to any reasonable person! >:(
By whom you mean those who want to be resurrected and have limbs grow back and never have anything but ice cream?
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For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.
Methodology, and the underlying theory, will involve limitations and constraints in terms of the details of the method used: such as what constitutes data, how these data are identified, recorded, measured etc - so how what method do you envisage would be suited to a predictable God?
If God has made a universe essentially nature has a way which is acceptable to God and in which God only rarely intervenes in a way that majorly overturns that and that explains why we never see resurrections or limb restorations although a few are reported.
Citations required. In addition, are these reports reliable?
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For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.
Is anybody's behaviour that predictable? I think not.
It would be if you're supposed to be the same yesterday, today and for ever ;)
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For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.
Is anybody's behaviour that predictable? I think not.
A Christian approach to healing I would have thought is to be expectant but not have expectations.
Wholeness or healing in Christianity is in the relationship with God.
Conversations like this usually turn either to placebo effect,which can only , in methodological materialism be a scientific observation and not an ontological conclusion,or to amputation.
If God has made a universe essentially nature has a way which is acceptable to God and in which God only rarely intervenes in a way that majorly overturns that and that explains why we never see resurrections or limb restorations although a few are reported.
I'm afraid I don't quite understand the answer you have given, but a few thoughts.
In terms of methodology I don't see why the claim part healings by prayer are not amenable to the scientific method. Either people who are prayed for get better or they don't. I accept that the scientific method could not be used to understand any supernatural element but unless the claim itself is substantiated then this is a moot point anyway.
I take it by the rest of your post that you are sceptical that God intervenes in healing as a result of prayer. Seems to be what you are saying anyway. Therefore, do you think that praying is a way to sort out your own internal thoughts and troubles in a similar way to what I suggested?
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I have this theory. ( not in the scientific sense :P )
I think that the brain is capable of all sorts of things sometimes, on an unconscious level.
It regulates our bodies and sometimes when a person is ill, everything can start packing up, kidneys etc.
The positive side is a cancer going into remission or the negative is one, being really aggressive.
Some people when the lose either a partner or a routine, it's like they give up on life, or an underlying condition takes off.
Prayer might influence the brain in some way in some people.
sometimes things appear to work and sometimes they don't.
Perhaps sometimes under some conditions, some people's bodies have an ability others don't.
Whether you can curl your tongue or not is a genetic thing ( you either can or you can't)
Maybe the ability of the unconscious brain to heal the body, is also genetic.
The ones most noticeable are the ones considered untreatable.
It would explain why it is inconsistent.
Perhaps we need to know more about the brain and what it can do.
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I have this theory. ( not in the scientific sense :P )
I think that the brain is capable of all sorts of things sometimes, on an unconscious level.
It regulates our bodies and sometimes when a person is ill, everything can start packing up, kidneys etc.
The positive side is a cancer going into remission or the negative is one being really aggressive.
Some people when the lose either a partner or a routine, it's like they give up on life, or an underlying condition takes off.
Prayer might influence the brain in some way in some people.
sometimes things appear to work and sometimes they don't.
Perhaps sometimes under some conditions, some people's bodies have an ability others don't.
Whether you can curl your tongue or not is a genetic thing ( you either can or you can't)
Maybe the ability of the unconscious brain to heal the body, is also genetic.
Everything we are is the result of our genes. Even the so-called nurture influence is entirely dependent on our genetic pattern.
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It would be if you're supposed to be the same yesterday, today and for ever ;)
Yes, God Is sovereign today, yesterday and tomorrow.
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I think it certainly could have an effect in that sense. I wouldn't call it prayer but I sometimes do something similar when very stressed and it seems to work. Almost as if by talking to myself I can work things through.
I am interested in hearing about all kinds of examples though.
That reminds me of so-called 'self-talk' which some psychotherapists recommend, that is, having a dialogue with yourself, as you mention. It does seem to work with some people, as does keeping a journal also. It seems to enable us to connect with parts of ourselves which normally lie unconscious. I don't mean 'lie' in the sense of deceit! Some Jungians have developed it into quite a complicated set of techniques, and they do it with dreams as well, so-called 'active imagination'. But you can do this with anything which strikes you in life, whether a dream or not.
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Methodology, and the underlying theory, will involve limitations and constraints in terms of the details of the method used: such as what constitutes data, how these data are identified, recorded, measured etc - so how what method do you envisage would be suited to a predictable God?
Citations required. In addition, are these reports reliable?
Yes I don't believe science can assess divine claims, and as the atheist Chomsky said it isn't very Good in the context of psychology and sociology either.
Other than that Gordon methodology is not ontology.
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I had a 'miracle' of sorts some years ago. My frozen shoulder, which had defied medical attention, was cured when I was persuaded to stand at the gate of our 'miracle' field belonging to our previous property! I am firmly of the opinion my body's own healing properties kicked in, responding to the pleasant vibes emanating from that field, no supernatural occurrence.
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It's interesting to consider what healing through prayer would prove. That god's a narcissistic wanker who only heals people in his cosy little gang? It would seem so.
Actually though it's only s particular kind of Christian that falls into that category.
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Yes, God Is sovereign today, yesterday and tomorrow.
... says you ;)
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It's interesting to consider what healing through prayer would prove. That god's a narcissistic wanker who only heals people in his cosy little gang? It would seem so.
Not even then, if you've been following the prayer thread.
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Not even then, if you've been following the prayer thread.
Which actually hands God a get out of jail free card. Because Christians can claim God did what was 'needed' without actually showing noticeable favouritism.
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Indeed.
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It's interesting to consider what healing through prayer would prove. That god's a narcissistic wanker who only heals people in his cosy little gang? It would seem so.
Actually though it's only s particular kind of Christian that falls into that category.
But it doesn't always heal its own gang. When my husband, an atheist, was desperately ill, well meaning folk offered up prayers for him. At the same time a devout Christian friend of ours was very ill too, he died, my husband survived. Our friend's family was completely screwed up as his children were still fairly young!
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Not even then, if you've been following the prayer thread.
Well that's certainly not a scientific approach Shaker.......and there may even be a wee bit of confirmation bias in there as well.
If you didn't have such caricature views you might reach the starting line of constructive conversation.
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But it doesn't always heal its own gang. When my husband, an atheist, was desperately ill, well meaning folk offered up prayers for him. At the same time a devout Christian friend of ours was very ill too, he died, my husband survived. Our friend's family was completely screwed up as his children were still fairly young!
Remember that theists with their hyperactive agency detection devices need to crowbar purpose and intentionality into the world at any cost, and so construct incredibly elaborate excuses of Byzantine proportions to 'explain' scenarios such as that which shore up their theism.
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Well that's certainly not a scientific approach Shaker.......and there may even be a wee bit of confirmation bias in there as well.
Feel free to explain - the only confirmation bias I see comes from the theists who have to explain away the manifest and at times abject failure of their prayers as part of some sort of bigger plan.
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That reminds me of so-called 'self-talk' which some psychotherapists recommend, that is, having a dialogue with yourself, as you mention. It does seem to work with some people, as does keeping a journal also. It seems to enable us to connect with parts of ourselves which normally lie unconscious. I don't mean 'lie' in the sense of deceit! Some Jungians have developed it into quite a complicated set of techniques, and they do it with dreams as well, so-called 'active imagination'. But you can do this with anything which strikes you in life, whether a dream or not.
I has definitely worked for me. I was in a very bad place with Depression last year and it was instrumental in bringing me back to normal. It is very interesting as it does feel as though you are talking to yourself but a different self if that makes any sense.
It's a technique I use a lot now for all sorts of things. I was interested to hear if this is a similar type of experience that some religious people have when praying. Are they really talking with God or their inner selves?
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Something I do when am anxious is to break things down into smaller steps, I find it makes it easier.
I think prayer can work the same way, because you are passing the future over to God to look after, and just manage the present moment yourself..
Even something as simple as a car journey, with a difficultly of parking at the end, especially if it is in unfamiliar territory.
We can only cope with the present, really.
🌹
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Yes I don't believe science can assess divine claims, and as the atheist Chomsky said it isn't very Good in the context of psychology and sociology either.
Other than that Gordon methodology is not ontology.
Then I think you believe incorrectly.
I don't see any reason why science can't assess the claims of divine occurrences. If someone claims to be able to turn water into wine at the drop of a hat, why wouldn't the scientific method be appropriate?
Again I accept that it can't go beyond that and assign a supernatural origin but it can assess the claims.
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I has definitely worked for me. I was in a very bad place with Depression last year and it was instrumental in bringing me back to normal. It is very interesting as it does feel as though you are talking to yourself but a different self if that makes any sense.
It's a technique I use a lot now for all sorts of things. I was interested to hear if this is a similar type of experience that some religious people have when praying. Are they really talking with God or their inner selves?
Sorry to hear of your troubles, Stephen, but am delighted to hear of your recovery.
I don't know if you've read (or even heard of) a book called Darkness Visible by the late William Styron. It's an account of his own bout with severe depression - it's a slender little book, beautifully written, short enough to be read in one sitting. I heartily recommend it to anyone. He notes that many people in the throes of the severest form of depression have observed a strange but interesting phenomenon, something like a second self observing the depressed self. He puts it better than I can - you'd need to read the book itself to get the gist of it.
http://goo.gl/ueY6wI
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Something I do when am anxious is to break things down into smaller steps, I find it makes it easier.
I think prayer can work the same way, because you are passing the future over to God to look after, and manage the present.
🌹
Interesting how people work in different ways isn't it. Handing the future over the some other agency wouldn't work for me as it had to be me I was addressing. I wish I could find a better way to express the other me in this that I address but it is very difficult. hence the reason I was wondering if anyone else had a similar experience.
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But it doesn't always heal its own gang. When my husband, an atheist, was desperately ill, well meaning folk offered up prayers for him. At the same time a devout Christian friend of ours was very ill too, he died, my husband survived. Our friend's family was completely screwed up as his children were still fairly young!
Again hardly a scientific treatment........and of course one that can easily be countered by raising the screwing up of families by human interaction.
The life of Jesus speaks that Christians are not spared suffering.
Again people are alighting at a caricature view of Christianity.
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Then I think you believe incorrectly.
I don't see any reason why science can't assess the claims of divine occurrences. If someone claims to be able to turn water into wine at the drop of a hat, why wouldn't the scientific method be appropriate?
Again I accept that it can't go beyond that and assign a supernatural origin but it can assess the claims.
although science can determine whether there is a healing or not in the physical sense. It has nothing to say on God.
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Sorry to hear of your troubles, Stephen, but am delighted to hear of your recovery.
I don't know if you've read (or even heard of) a book called Darkness Visible by the late William Styron. It's an account of his own bout with severe depression - it's a slender little book, beautifully written, short enough to be read in one sitting. I heartily recommend it to anyone. He notes that many people in the throes of the severest form of depression have observed a strange but interesting phenomenon, something like a second self observing the depressed self. He puts it better than I can - you'd need to read the book itself to get the gist of it.
http://goo.gl/ueY6wI
Thank you. I have just ordered it. :)
I am recovered now thanks to the excellent treatment I received.
I also now have this new technique of talking to my inner self that is a real bonus in everyday life.
I would also encourage anyone who feels that they are in a bad place to seek help. It is out there and you can get better,
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although science can determine whether there is a healing or not in the physical sense. It has nothing to say on God.
It's the theists who have plenty to say on God, attributing healings to it while curiously at the same time glossing over the non-healings.
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Interesting how people work in different ways isn't it. Handing the future over the some other agency wouldn't work for me as it had to be me I was addressing. I wish I could find a better way to express the other me in this that I address but it is very difficult. hence the reason I was wondering if anyone else had a similar experience.
Is that like the " you" living in the present, talking to a "you" that almost doesn't?
Or a "you" that is the little voice that berates yourself for not " getting it together" ?
If I'm nervous I sometimes mentally tell myself off, it's a sort of sensible me, tells off the fearful and wimpy me......
:D
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Thank you. I have just ordered it. :)
I am recovered now thanks to the excellent treatment I received.
I also now have this new technique of talking to my inner self that is a real bonus in everyday life.
I would also encourage anyone who feels that they are in a bad place to seek help. It is out there and you can get better,
Been through it too, Stephen. Glad you are feeling better.
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It's the theists who have plenty to say on God, attributing healings to it while curiously at the same time glossing over the non-healings.
No the problem here is the caricature view that anti theists hold.
You are the likes of person that tells the likes of me what I am believing.
StillI suppose it saves you the trouble of listening.
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No the problem here is the caricature view that anti theists hold.
You are the likes of person that tells the likes of me what I am believing.
StillI suppose it saves you the trouble of listening.
It's no caricature - as I said, you only have to look at the prayer thread.
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Yes I don't believe science can assess divine claims
So what method do you use to assess divine claims?
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Thank you. I have just ordered it. :)
I am recovered now thanks to the excellent treatment I received.
I also now have this new technique of talking to my inner self that is a real bonus in everyday life.
I would also encourage anyone who feels that they are in a bad place to seek help. It is out there and you can get better,
I too am glad you are feeling better :)
🌹
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So what method do you use to assess divine claims?
What method did you use to establish your ontological naturalism since you can't use methodological naturalism?
Touché aside, like science detection of the divine is instrumental. The instrument is you, the detection is the perturbations by God....and let's face it there are huge perturbations on this forum😉
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It's no caricature - as I said, you only have to look at the prayer thread.
Yes that is but one thread specifically for a type of prayer on one forum.
To give further example of how unrepresentative this forum, most atheists on here are antitheist yet in reality anti theists are a tiny minority who are just loud and get the same kind of attention as people with 100% body tattoos, I e complete.
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Yes that is but one thread specifically for a type of prayer on one forum.
To give further example of how unrepresentative this forum, most atheists on here are antitheist yet in reality anti theists are a tiny minority who are just loud and get the same kind of attention as people with 100% body tattoos, I e complete.
Same kind of attention as people with 100% body tattoos?
:o
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Yes that is but one thread specifically for a type of prayer on one forum.
Cue special pleading!
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Cue special pleading!
How?
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Is that like the " you" living in the present, talking to a "you" that almost doesn't?
Or a "you" that is the little voice that berates yourself for not " getting it together" ?
If I'm nervous I sometimes mentally tell myself off, it's a sort of sensible me, tells off the fearful and wimpy me......
:D
Much more like the first one. It is clearly me in the present talking to the real me. The fundamental me. All very odd, but it does seem to work very well.
I can see how it could easily be given some spiritual or religious interpretation. I don't ascribe it to a God or some external agent but I think I have developed or nurtured a spiritual side to me that wasn't there before.
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What method did you use to establish your ontological naturalism since you can't use methodological naturalism?
Touché aside, like science detection of the divine is instrumental. The instrument is you, the detection is the perturbations by God....and let's face it there are huge perturbations on this forum😉
Evasion not just noted but expected - in other words you don't have a clue.
Touché indeed: who are you kidding!
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although science can determine whether there is a healing or not in the physical sense. It has nothing to say on God.
We are agreed then.
So then if we used science to determine that there was a strong correlation between prayer and healings (let's say every time Pete the Preacher prays for someone an amputee grows back a limb), then what methodology would we use to determine that something divine was at play?
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How?
Your implication that petitionary prayer exists only on this forum.
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Is that like the " you" living in the present, talking to a "you" that almost doesn't?
Or a "you" that is the little voice that berates yourself for not " getting it together" ?
If I'm nervous I sometimes mentally tell myself off, it's a sort of sensible me, tells off the fearful and wimpy me......
:D
Id, ego & super ego, all seem to live, combine quite well inside our brains, well at least for most people.
Look it up on wikki and then tell me where else I should or could have looked Rose.
There are loads of things around that I don't know about, like my inability to write much without including spelling mistakes, I'm not frightened of being told this annoying fact about my spelling, there's not many of us that can do or know everything, even I don't know everything and I also know how surprising this must be to you.
Regards ippy
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I has definitely worked for me. I was in a very bad place with Depression last year and it was instrumental in bringing me back to normal. It is very interesting as it does feel as though you are talking to yourself but a different self if that makes any sense.
It's a technique I use a lot now for all sorts of things. I was interested to hear if this is a similar type of experience that some religious people have when praying. Are they really talking with God or their inner selves?
The Jungians have gone to town on this, and talk to all kinds of inner selves or 'objects'. For example, a lot of people have an inner critic, (a bit like Freud's super-ego), anyway, it is possible to fight back against its attacks and criticisms. Jung himself of course postulated a kind of inner God or Self, which is at the centre of the psyche. I'm not sure that there is a centre actually. But then the mystics tend to say that the centre is everywhere, which is cute.
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No the problem here is the caricature view that anti theists hold.
You are the likes of person that tells the likes of me what I am believing.
StillI suppose it saves you the trouble of listening.
I'm more inclined to think of myself as anti Ju Ju thing in the sky than an antitheist as religion's mythical mystical and superstition base is about as realistic as having a real Ju Ju in the sky.
ippy
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I think prayer can have a placebo effect from time to time. There is no evidence any deity is on the end of a prayer line. But just supposing there was, why doesn't it respond positively to all prayers for healing, instead of very few? Wait for the excuses made on god's behalf! ::)
Could it be that folk like you, who don't believe in the phenomenon are too busy trying to provide other, non-scientific, evidence for 'spontaneous healing' to realise that it has been prayer at work?
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I'm more inclined to think of myself as anti Ju Ju thing in the sky ...
So that is something we both agree on, ippy.
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Could it be that folk like you, who don't believe in the phenomenon are too busy trying to provide other, non-scientific, evidence for 'spontaneous healing' to realise that it has been prayer at work?
No, it couldn't. We're the ones wih a methodology for evaluating these claims, remember (and prayer comes up woefully short when put to the test). You continue to tout spontaneous healing as some grand mysterious thing, ignoring what's already known about it (linked to by me, twice, so unread, misunderstood or ignored by you) and what that raises for areas of continued research. The busy part that you refer is busily tryng to find out how the world actually works - that's what science is for and what scientists do.
I would ask what your methodology is for realising that prayer works but I know better. And now so does Stephen Taylor, who came to the forum seeking an answer to that very question and now realises that he's never going to get one.
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Could it be that folk like you, who don't believe in the phenomenon are too busy trying to provide other, non-scientific, evidence for 'spontaneous healing' to realise that it has been prayer at work?
Well then let's have:
1) a clear example of someone who has been healed directly by prayer.
2) What methodology you have used to determine that some non-natural agency was at work.
You can use the scientific method for number 1. It is the perfect tool.
No idea what you use for (2). I came out of hiding and started a thread specifically for you to enlighten us.
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Hope, didn't you have an incident of healing at your church? A young person with a fractured wrist IIRC.
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Hope, didn't you have an incident of healing at your church? A young person with a fractured wrist IIRC.
Actually I am prepared to forget point number one for now. Let us pretend that a clear link has been made between healing and prayer.
How would we know that a divine agency was at work? This is the key point for me. Hope and others like to use (a very poor version) of the scientific method to justify step 1, but even if they did how do they get to "it was God what done it", rather than we don't know how it works.
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Could it be that folk like you, who don't believe in the phenomenon are too busy trying to provide other, non-scientific, evidence for 'spontaneous healing' to realise that it has been prayer at work?
How do you know (as in having knowledge) this?
i see you are suggesting we are commiting the negative proof fallacy: we aren't, and that is your specialty.
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Actually I am prepared to forget point number one for now. Let us pretend that a clear link has been made between healing and prayer.
How would we know that a divine agency was at work? This is the key point for me. Hope and others like to use (a very poor version) of the scientific method to justify step 1, but even if they did how do they get to "it was God what done it", rather than we don't know how it works.
This interests me because my driving instructor told me that her son fractured his ankle playing football. When she took him to have a repeat X-ray a few days later it had gone. Apparently it's not unusual for the bones of young people to appear to be fractured and then tbe fracture spontaneously disappears.
I should point out that no prayer was involved in this incident.
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So that is something we both agree on, ippy.
Hope I see your old habits haven't gone away, where I posted all of the next small paragraph:
"I'm more inclined to think of myself as anti Ju Ju thing in the sky than an antitheist as religion's mythical mystical and superstition base is about as realistic as having a real Ju Ju in the sky".
Your post only included this part of my original post:
"I'm more inclined to think of myself as anti Ju Ju thing in the sky than an antitheist".
Why was that?
ippy
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This interests me because my driving instructor told me that her son fractured his ankle playing football. When she took him to have a repeat X-ray a few days later it had gone. Apparently it's not unusual for the bones of young people to appear to be fractured and then tbe fracture spontaneously disappears.
I should point out that no prayer was involved in this incident.
I was praying England would beat Wales at rugby yesterday is there any signfigance in that, it looks like I was answered?
ippy
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"...the same yesterday, today and forever."
Absolutely, but we don't know all there is to know about God's ways to begin with.
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and our children..." Deuteronomy 29:29
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"...the same yesterday, today and forever."
Absolutely, but we don't know all there is to know about God's ways to begin with.
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and our children..." Deuteronomy 29:29
A.A.Milne wrote better childrens' stories than those dedicated to your "God" ... and Alfred Noyes better poetry.
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A.A.Milne wrote better childrens' stories than those dedicated to your "God" ... and Alfred Noyes better poetry.
I hope you are not implying those writers are rubbish.
Alfred Noyes is one of my favourites.
;D
The highwayman, a childhood favourite
The Highwayman
BY ALFRED NOYES
PART ONE
The wind was a torrent of darkness among the gusty trees.
The moon was a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas.
The road was a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor,
And the highwayman came riding—
Riding—riding—
The highwayman came riding, up to the old inn-door.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/171940
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"...the same yesterday, today and forever."
Absolutely, but we don't know all there is to know about God's ways to begin with.
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and our children..." Deuteronomy 29:29
How do you know Woody and if you think you do know what have you got that would or could back it up, if you can't back up this, at the moment, asserted knowledge, why should your words on this be accepted as anything more than something you've decided to believe without, as I suspect, anything that will back it up.
All the best with your imaginary lord Woody; ever thought of taking up Ju Juism?
ippy
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Well then let's have:
1) a clear example of someone who has been healed directly by prayer.
2) What methodology you have used to determine that some non-natural agency was at work.
You can use the scientific method for number 1. It is the perfect tool.
No idea what you use for (2). I came out of hiding and started a thread specifically for you to enlighten us.
Any chance of finally getting an answer Hope?
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I hope you are not implying those writers are rubbish.
Of course not, my dear. As I said, I consider them far superior to the writers of the Bible ... in spite of their claim to "divine inspiration". :)
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Any chance of finally getting an answer Hope?
:) :) :) :)
But answer came there none!
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ippy,
I'm still waiting for you to produce a Klingon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CayMeza487M
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ippy,
I'm still waiting for you to produce a Klingon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CayMeza487M
I'm still waiting for an answer to #66. I think you have more chance of bumping into a Klingon on Blackpool prom than I do of getting an answer :(
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ippy,
I'm still waiting for you to produce a Klingon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CayMeza487M
Now there's the difference between you and me Woody Chop Chop, I'm fully aware that I'm playing the silly arse with my imaginary Star Trek and the Klingons.
ippy