Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on March 17, 2016, 10:20:22 PM
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We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.
Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.
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We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.
Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.
You expect to start a sensible discussion by saying that atheists are mewling? Really? No, thought not.
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Gods exist in human minds - god-concepts, if you prefer.
Until somebody can stump up with some evidence that gods exist external to human minds, (some) human minds are the only place where gods are to be found, thus making gods true for those who believe in them - subjectively true and not objectively true independent of what's believed about them.
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You expect to start a sensible discussion by saying that atheists are mewling? Really? No, thought not.
Any excuse eh.
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Any excuse eh.
I don't need an excuse not to waste time on a discussion which is clearly not intended to be a serious one.
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Gods exist in human minds - god-concepts, if you prefer.
Until somebody can stump up with some evidence that gods exist external to human minds, (some) human minds are the only place where gods are to be found, thus making gods true for those who believe in them - subjectively true and not objectively true independent of what's believed about them.
Do you think though that the probable non existence of God as espoused by many atheists is true for them but not everyone?
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>:(
I don't need an excuse not to waste time on a discussion which is clearly not intended to be a serious one.
It's very serious since an atheist who complains of Christians thinking God is true for everyone but thinks that the non existence of God is true for everyone is a humbug and full of the brown stuff.
So ....do you think that the non existence of God is true for you or true for everyone?
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Do you think though that the probable non existence of God as espoused by many atheists is true for them but not everyone?
Existence or non-existence are brute facts. Something either exists - actually, independently, objectively exists - or doesn't. If theism were proven the existence of a god would be a brute fact regardless of one's opinion about it. Conversely with atheism. In the absence of such definitive proof there are only opinions - reasoned ones backed up by evidence (or lack thereof), reason and logic, and then the silly ones ;)
The most we can say is what I said in my previous post - god-concepts exist in some human brains and are subjectively true for the holders of that opinion. As we know, though, many theists - not all, but likely most - are unhappy with this minimal definition and are keen to shore up their opinion with claims of objective, external truth 'out there,' even though they're to say the least a bit hazy on what 'out there' actually means.
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Existence or non-existence are brute facts. Something either exists - actually, independently, objectively exists - or doesn't. If theism were proven the existence of a god would be a brute fact regardless of one's opinion about it. Conversely with atheism. In the absence of such definitive proof there are only opinions - reasoned ones backed up by evidence (or lack thereof), reason and logic, and then the silly ones ;)
So what do you make of all this true for you stuff then?
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See #2 and #7.
Religion - theism and monotheism especially - has often been an instrument of control, oppression and subjugation. Still is, in some quarters. You don't get power over people by saying "Well it's true for me, but whatever roasts your potatoes, man." You only claim absolute authority - the power of life and death, often - by claiming that your god is independent of your own skull, i.e. is a brute fact externally and objectively true regardless of opinion.
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>:(It's very serious since an atheist who complains of Christians thinking God is true for everyone but thinks that the non existence of God is true for everyone is a humbug and full of the brown stuff.
So ....do you think that the non existence of God is true for you or true for everyone?
A serious discussion doesn't refer to the subject matter but the nature of the discussion taking place of course, but if you are going to take it seriously I'll give it a try.
I have no belief in God, see no reason to believe in God and think the likelihood of God existing to be tiny but not impossible. I understand that other people do believe in God and except their right to do so and do not consider the belief itself to be irrational or based on ignorance, only the arguments used by some to support that belief. No one should assert that their belief is true (reality) and that applies to those who have a positive belief there is no God - this is not the same as having no belief and thinking it unlikely God exists.
So ... interpret that to answer your question how you see fit and let me know.
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A serious discussion doesn't refer to the subject matter but the nature of the discussion taking place of course, but if you are going to take it seriously I'll give it a try.
I have no belief in God, see no reason to believe in God and think the likelihood of God existing to be tiny but not impossible. I understand that other people do believe in God and except their right to do so and do not consider the belief itself to be irrational or based on ignorance, only the arguments used by some to support that belief. No one should assert that their belief is true (reality) and that applies to those who have a positive belief there is no God - this is not the same as having no belief and thinking it unlikely God exists.
So ... interpret that to answer your question how you see fit and let me know.
I think Christians take it as read that their belief is not universally accepted since scripture makes it clear that God has yet to reveal himself manifestly and empirically and unmistakedly and that is in fact where most come from.
People who say that you must believe and try to ram Christianity down people's throats are virtually non existent.
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People who say that you must believe and try to ram Christianity down people's throats are virtually non existent.
Not on this forum!
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I think Christians take it as read that their belief is not universally accepted since scripture makes it clear that God has yet to reveal himself manifestly and empirically and unmistakedly and that is in fact where most come from.
People who say that you must believe and try to ram Christianity down people's throats are virtually non existent.
I think there are a noticeable number but I'd accept that what you say is true about the vast majority.
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We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.
Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.
I think that you don't understand the nature of claims.
The default position is that the claim is not true (or rather not supported), the burden is upon the claimant to support their claims if those claims are meant to be objectively true for all.
If the claim is subjective then no evidence is required.
It's not that I claim there is no God, it's simply the default.
This is nothing special to claims of God it's true for everything.
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I see, Vlad, that this is a follow-on thread to the exchange last night on the 'Why is there no verifiable evidence?' thread, so I may as well re-post here what I said to you there [in #82] - just in case you'd forgotten.
Dear me, Vlad - have you not yet learned that atheism isn't 'true' as such: it is simply a current absence of holding any beliefs in the existence of gods, largely because the proponents of these gods have offered no good reasons for thinking otherwise, although they do specialise in bad reasons (which they seemingly never tire of).
I'm sure this has been pointed out to you many times before.
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Gordon,
Thank you for putting my previous message far more succinctly than I did.
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We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.
Nobody mewls like Vlad.
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Nobody mewls like Vlad.
That would make a great T-shirt design.
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That would make a great T-shirt design.
Old Vlads never die, they just let their turds go dull.
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That would make a great T-shirt design.
Vlad went to the Bahamas and all I got was this lousy philosophical naturalism.
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Vlad, You say you are asking this seriously.
Fine. In which case you deserve an answer. So, here is mine. Make of it what you will.
I haven't a clue whether any god exists or not, but I have not yet seen any convincing arguments or evidence that one(or more than one) does exist. Hence I do not have any belief in any god(s) whatever. This is my personal position. I am quite happy to accept that others may have a belief in their particular god. They may well be right. I have no means of knowing. I simply state my personal preference of not believing until evidence accrues which will persuade me, at the very least, that their god probably exists.
I do however reserve the right to challenge any arguments that I consider suspect if I so wish, and also to challenge attitudes which consider one's beliefs to be factual or some sort of 'truth' applicable to others without either the necessary evidence, or, at the very least, some sort of intersubjective methodology which can arrive at that evidence. Also, some Christians, in particular, seem to be on a prosletysing kick which often involves so called arguments which are little more than assertions. These I am quite willing to challenge.
For my own part, I do not seek to convert others into being atheistic at all. It is entirely up to them what sort of view they take of the world. I am not in the business of trying to impose my views upon others. Indeed, in some cases, I can quite see that their views give them comfort and support, especially in times of stress.
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Mewling... nice.
I'm not sure that there is such a thing as 'truth'. Given that, there are no universal truths. But like Enki I believe that what I see as illogical, inhuman, narcissistic, damaging or unwise beliefs need challenging.
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Mewling... nice.
I'm not sure that there is such a thing as 'truth'.
Of course there is. 2+2=4
Given that, there are no universal truths.
Yes there are, for example: "a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife".
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Of course there is. 2+2=4
Yes there are, for example: "a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife".
To know that 2+2=4 would require us to know that there is nothing illusory about whatever it is that knows. I'm not sure we can know that.
My true for me for the second would be that he is also in want of a decent prenup, but hey.
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To know that 2+2=4 would require us to know that there is nothing illusory about whatever it is that knows. I'm not sure we can know that.
It's a mathematical truth. There's nothing illusory about it.
My true for me for the second would be that he is also in want of a decent prenup, but hey.
I'm not sure Jane Austen has anything to say about prenups.
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It's not mathematics that I'm suggesting is illusory, but the notion that there is an I who knows it.
If it's a universal truth then Austen applies to today's world as much as her own. Of course the single man in possessed of a fortune might equally be in want of a husband. Or in urgent need of rehab. Or a pig to shag, if he attended one of England's finest educational establishments. Depends very much on the man in question, I'd suggest.
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For me God is just a phenomena of the Unconscious. People just translate that in different ways and by so doing they are just denying the way that some do project that into the God figure or symbol. So the Unconscious is the unifying factor.
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What ever is really out there, is true for everyone, what ever that is.
Even if a God of sorts exists, doesn't mean it's one of the ones from our religions.
I don't think we know tbh.
Not really.
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What ever is really out there, is true for everyone, what ever that is.
Exactly. If there is a god out there, the fact that I do not believe it does not make it false for me, it just makes me wrong.
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Gods exist in human minds - god-concepts, if you prefer.
Do you have any evidence for this claim, Shaker?
Until somebody can stump up with some evidence that gods exist external to human minds, (some) human minds are the only place where gods are to be found, thus making gods true for those who believe in them - subjectively true and not objectively true independent of what's believed about them.
As I've said many times before, there will probably never be a time when purely naturalistic evidence will be provided for a non-natural phenomenon. That doesn't mean that belief in God is not objective.
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As I've said many times before, there will probably never be a time when purely naturalistic evidence will be provided for a non-natural phenomenon.
Which is why you were asked to provide a non-naturalistic method - which you haven't as yet.
That doesn't mean that belief in God is not objective.
It does, since all you have is your subjective opinion on the matter.
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Do you have any evidence for this claim, Shaker?
It's pretty obvious that gods exist in the human mind. For example, everybody on this board has a god concept.
As I've said many times before, there will probably never be a time when purely naturalistic evidence will be provided for a non-natural phenomenon. That doesn't mean that belief in God is not objective.
If God is objective, where's the objective evidence?
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Do you have any evidence for this claim, Shaker?
I wouldn't have thought that I would have had to (a cumbersome phrase in English to be sure, but grammatically sound), but OK. You are one of the set of members of this forum who claim a belief in a god, therefore you must presumably have some sort of concept in your mind of what it is that you claim a belief in - that is unless, of course, that you believe completely randomly and gratuitously in something of which you have no conception. In my experience, in matters religious this is very far from unusual, I can assure you.
If you want to broaden the discussion outside the paramters of this here lil' forum, I've read a great many texts over a great many years by people who claim a belief in a god or gods of some sort and of various permutations. Unless you adhere to the scenario I've just outlined - i.e. people believe completely randomly and gratuitously in something of which they have no conception - presumably you must think that in believing in X they must have some concept in mind of X however rough, ready and rudimentary.
As I've said many times before, there will probably never be a time when purely naturalistic evidence will be provided for a non-natural phenomenon.
So provide a methodology by which we can all evaluate these claims of non-natural things. You claim that you've provided such a thing elsewhere and have had other people flummoxed by it - so why not do the same here? If it's too long to type out all over again (something I fully understand), no worries - just provide a link to those forums where you claim that you've done so in times past, so that we can all have a look.
Seriously, what's the problem here? How much simpler can we make it for you?
That doesn't mean that belief in God is not objective.
A belief in God is absolutely objective - that's not the bit which is in dispute. It's the objective existence of the content of that particular belief, the referent of the statement "I believe in God", which is in dispute. And will remain so.
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It's pretty obvious that gods exist in the human mind. For example, everybody on this board has a god concept.
Ahem. A non-cognitivist (I lean in that direction myself) would quibble with this, insofar as it's not at all obvious that everyone (on this board or otherwise) actually does have a god concept that they accept or reject. You often hear it asserted that everyone has a god-concept which they either accept (believe in) or reject (don't believe in), but I'm not at all convinced that this is true. Do they? Really? On what grounds?
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Ahem. A non-cognitivist (I lean in that direction myself) would quibble with this, insofar as it's not at all obvious that everyone (on this board or otherwise) actually does have a god concept that they accept or reject. You often hear it asserted that everyone has a god-concept which they either accept (believe in) or reject (don't believe in), but I'm not at all convinced that this is true. Do they? Really? On what grounds?
So you don't have a God concept but you reject everybody elses
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So you don't have a God concept but you reject everybody elses
I don't have a God concept per se but just reject those of the people who do. They are the ones who provide the concepts and the definitions of their Gods which all emanate from their minds or the systems/religions they adhere to. Nothing of their Gods are observed beyond what is expressed by them, those expressions coming solely from their minds, and as such why I reject their claims that God is something external to their thoughts on the issue.
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We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.
Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.
You are making two separate arguments here. I have no interest whatsoever in what atheists think Christians are doing, not being an atheist.
However to make derogatory comments that are inaccurate turns the description mewling back upon you.
In the case of pagans our case is not the same as that of atheists.
My case, as a pagan, is that Christians DO consider that theirs is the only God and thus MUST be true for everyone as any other deity is false. In fact my deities have been dismissed as "false gods" (note the small "g") on more than one cccasion on this forum by more than one Christian, Ad_O immediately springs to mind.
Thus your comment about "Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone" should, in fact, read "Christians thinking that God must be true for everyone."
Quite apart from that you OP is very much a case of a Christian mewling about atheists and pagans failing to agree with your view of YOUR deity.
Pathetic!
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Ahem. A non-cognitivist (I lean in that direction myself) would quibble with this, insofar as it's not at all obvious that everyone (on this board or otherwise) actually does have a god concept that they accept or reject.
Well we all talk about God so how do we form arguments about God if we don't have a concept of what a god is?
You often hear it asserted that everyone has a god-concept which they either accept (believe in) or reject (don't believe in), but I'm not at all convinced that this is true. Do they? Really? On what grounds?
I didn't say everyone has a god concept, only the people on this board. That's all you need because Hope challenged you to show that at least one person has the god concept.
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I don't have a God concept per se
How do you know what the word means then?
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How do you know what the word means then?
Actually, that's one of the problems in discussions here - the word actually covers a lot of different and often disjoint notions.
I'd say that I don't have my own god concept that I reject but that all the god concepts I've encountered seem absurd for one reason or another.
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Dear Jeremyp,
A concept of God, an abstract idea, a general notion, yes that about sums me up, having Jesus in my life kind of makes the idea, the notion more concrete, very interesting, and yes I think you are right, we all have a notion an abstract idea of what God is, that is the big question ( for me ) what is God?
So Jeremyp, old chum, what is your concept of God, or any atheist, do you have a concept of God, the one you don't believe in.
Gonnagle.
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...or any atheist, do you have a concept of God, the one you don't believe in.
As indicated above - I have a whole menagerie of gods that I don't believe in (i.e. all the god concepts I have so far encountered).
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The bible suggests that man disbelieves and believes in God because in the beginning was God.
God made man and lived with man. Does it show any lesser a reason for the existence of God at all in our humanity?
The tower of babel is that how God became a living reality in all places through the world where different languages and ways exist. Even the lost tribes found living isolated from the rest of mankind have a belief in God.
The fact is that the belief in a god exists. But no greater belief than that in the one of the Jews.
A religion where covenants made and God has shown Abraham to have more descendants all over the world as he promised from a time it could not have actually been a forethought for any man.
Non existence of God is less likely given the evidence that mankind has always believed in his existence.
The strongest cast for God is that he was with Man in the beginning at the first creation of mankind.
You cannot argue the position because God is a reality in himself, that does not leave any doubt about that the belief in God exists and has always been with mankind. The thing is can you disprove his existence. The answer is clearly,'NO'.
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Just about all the main logical fallacies about God and belief therein crammed into one post - that must be nearly a record even for R & E.
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Dear Some Kind of Stranger, ( can I just call you Stranger )
As indicated above - I have a whole menagerie of gods that I don't believe in (i.e. all the god concepts I have so far encountered).
Yes! and this is my sticking point with atheists ( not atheism ) atheists dismiss any notion of God/gods but have they explored every notion, every idea, do atheists ever consider what God is or is not, did you read Shakers excellent post on Pantheism, did that not make you stop and think, funny thing about that thread, not a lot of atheists joined in that debate, the ones that did were short and sweet.
Atheism, yes, but atheists :o :o I know what I mean ;)
Gonnagle.
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An atheist saying they have no belief in any gods is a statement of fact about their state of belief. To say that no gods exist is an assertion which must be qualified by what is meant by gods of course.
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Dear Maeght,
Thank you, I will be on the look out for assertions ;)
Gonnagle.
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Yes! and this is my sticking point with atheists ( not atheism ) atheists dismiss any notion of God/gods but have they explored every notion, every idea, do atheists ever consider what God is or is not...
Two points here.
Firstly, no I haven't explored every notion and idea - I doubt that's even possible in one human lifetime.
Secondly, the question "do atheists ever consider what God is or is not [?]" pre-supposes that there is something to consider, other than ideas in people's minds.
For me 'god' is a label given to a loosely (very loosely) connected set of ideas - all of which, to date, I have found absurd for various reasons. What would be the purpose in trying to invent or seek out more ideas that have been, or could be, labelled 'god'?
Ideas are fine but they can be judged on their own merits, whether or not they have the label 'god' in somebody's mind.
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Dear Stranger,
Fair enough, I will leave you with a quote which I totally agree with.
Small amounts of philosophy lead to atheism, but larger amounts bring us back to God.
Francis Bacon.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Stranger,
Fair enough, I will leave you with a quote which I totally agree with.
Francis Bacon.
Gonnagle.
Nobody told Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Sartre, Russell ... ;)
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Fair enough, I will leave you with a quote which I totally agree with.
Small amounts of philosophy lead to atheism, but larger amounts bring us back to God.
Francis Bacon.
It's a bit meaningless by itself, isn't it? Just an assertion that many philosophers would dispute.
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How do you know what the word means then?
The theists set out the definition and meaning of the word God. That is their hypothesis on the issue and that word 'God', and that is what I work from - I did say "per se" with regards to this. If they set it out then there are numerous Gods because there are numerous definitions, and numerous minds that hold a definition of God.
I, therefore, don't have a concept of God that I hold as true for me, personally, but take on board the hypotheses that are presented to me and analyse and assess these for their possible merits and plausibility.
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Dear Jack, ( Hi Jack :P )
So what do you make of this definition,
A second important difference between pantheism and traditional theistic religions is that pantheists also reject the idea of God’s personhood. The pantheist God is not a personal God, the kind of entity that could have beliefs, desires, intentions, or agency. Unlike the traditional God of theism, the pantheistic God does not have a will and cannot act in or upon the universe. These are the kind of things that only a person, or a person-like entity, could do. For the pantheist, God is the non-personal divinity that pervades all existence. It is the divine Unity of the world.
Has it got merit, plausibility, have you ever contemplated this kind of God.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Some Kind of Stranger, ( can I just call you Stranger )
Yes! and this is my sticking point with atheists ( not atheism ) atheists dismiss any notion of God/gods but have they explored every notion, every idea, do atheists ever consider what God is or is not, did you read Shakers excellent post on Pantheism, did that not make you stop and think, funny thing about that thread, not a lot of atheists joined in that debate, the ones that did were short and sweet.
Atheism, yes, but atheists :o :o I know what I mean ;)
Gonnagle.
That's a bit harsh, Gonners. I'm an atheist and I don't simply dismiss the idea that any god(s) can't possibly exist. I simply have no belief in any of the particular variations that have so far been presented to me. Also, in the thread you mention, I actually did describe my generalised idea of the divine as:
some sort of conscious presence, and, in this context(i.e. the natural world) I certainly don't have feelings, and have never had feelings which suggest this at all.
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So what do you make of this definition,
A second important difference between pantheism and traditional theistic religions is that pantheists also reject the idea of God’s personhood. The pantheist God is not a personal God, the kind of entity that could have beliefs, desires, intentions, or agency. Unlike the traditional God of theism, the pantheistic God does not have a will and cannot act in or upon the universe. These are the kind of things that only a person, or a person-like entity, could do. For the pantheist, God is the non-personal divinity that pervades all existence. It is the divine Unity of the world.
Has it got merit, plausibility, have you ever contemplated this kind of God.
My reaction would be: I have no idea what "the divine Unity of the world" means. Is it the same thing as the universe or not?
If it is, then why bother calling it god?
If it isn't, then what exactly is it?
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I'm a pantheist and I see no need to throw the word 'divine' in there.
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Dear Jack, ( Hi Jack :P )
So what do you make of this definition,
A second important difference between pantheism and traditional theistic religions is that pantheists also reject the idea of God’s personhood. The pantheist God is not a personal God, the kind of entity that could have beliefs, desires, intentions, or agency. Unlike the traditional God of theism, the pantheistic God does not have a will and cannot act in or upon the universe. These are the kind of things that only a person, or a person-like entity, could do. For the pantheist, God is the non-personal divinity that pervades all existence. It is the divine Unity of the world.
Has it got merit, plausibility, have you ever contemplated this kind of God.
Gonnagle.
It's not really a definition but as it says is a comparison of two ideas or aspects of the God genre.
This just goes to show how nebulous and flexible the word God is to various people, that such extremes can be had for one word; making it meaningless.
Yes I have come across such ideas of God. Shaker did a pantheistic thread fairly recently, but the ideas of pantheism have been know to me for decades. What is said in the quote you have provided pretty much makes that God almost synonymous with the laws of physics, or at least it is an element of it.
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Actually, that's one of the problems in discussions here - the word actually covers a lot of different and often disjoint notions.
If we are are talking about God with a capital "G", I'd say that while there are many notions, they are not disjoint. The idea that God is the creator of our Universe is probably common to all, unless you are counting pantheists.
I'd say that I don't have my own god concept that I reject but that all the god concepts I've encountered seem absurd for one reason or another.
But you do have a god concept, or even many. god concepts. And so does Jack or he wouldn't know what the word means.
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So Jeremyp, old chum, what is your concept of God, or any atheist, do you have a concept of God, the one you don't believe in.
I was brought up a Christian, so the word "God" triggers the Christian concept (or one of them) of what God is, but I am also aware of other concepts of God, like the Muslim one. Intellectually, my minimal concept of God is "intelligent being that created the Universe".
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I was brought up a Christian so can relate to Jeremy's post. But pagan deities are different - I think Owlswing will agree with me - they are not necessarily that interested in normal 'God' stuff - worship, being believed in or saving people especially. Pagan ideas about creator deities are generally quite vague (in a good way) and most come down to some kind of panentheistic idea when picked apart.
My perception of how pagan deities are viewed is that they aren't giant omni-beings, but local, immediate and can take or leave humanity as they wish. I might not believe in them but they are bloody good fun for those that do.
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I was brought up a Christian so can relate to Jeremy's post. But pagan deities are different - I think Owlswing will agree with me - they are not necessarily that interested in normal 'God' stuff - worship, being believed in or saving people especially. Pagan ideas about creator deities are generally quite vague (in a good way) and most come down to some kind of panentheistic idea when picked apart.
My perception of how pagan deities are viewed is that they aren't giant omni-beings, but local, immediate and can take or leave humanity as they wish. I might not believe in them but they are bloody good fun for those that do.
My Pagan deities are like those of the Greeks, the Romans and the Norsemen. They are far more human that the Christian deity. They have human failings, human emotions.
They did not create the universe or the world, they inhabit it just as we do.
Oh, and they don't give a tinker's damn if we believe in them or not.
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If we are are talking about God with a capital "G", I'd say that while there are many notions, they are not disjoint. The idea that God is the creator of our Universe is probably common to all, unless you are counting pantheists.
What I think you mean is that there are some parts of the concepts that are common to all, like "creator of our universe"?
I'm totally sure if that is true - I've spoken to some people who claim to be Christians who don't actually seem to know themselves what their god is - or perhaps they didn't want to say.
Anyway, my original point (and I probably did not express it clearly) was that if you pick one god (say one of the YEC gods) and compare with another (more liberal version) while they may both be claimed to be creator of the universe and (possibly but not always) have all the omnis they might have very little else in common. Both versions cannot exist; they are mutually exclusive beliefs.
But you do have a god concept, or even many. god concepts. And so does Jack or he wouldn't know what the word means.
I have stored away many, yes - but what I said was I don't have my own. So the (rather trite) theist question to atheists: "what god don't you believe in" doesn't, in my case, have an answer other than all the ones I've heard of so far....
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Dear Stranger,
Trite, well thank you! but if it is all the same to you I will continue to be trite, why! because I want to know, to understand.
On this forum the amount of times I and other theists are told, what is it you don't understand about the word atheism, well news flash, I understand the word atheism it is the atheist that baffles me.
The last time I tried to have a discussion about how atheism affects the life of an atheist I realised that I was on shaky ground, I was asking them about something which is quite personal, especially those who had travelled from theism into atheism.
So for me, asking them which God/gods they don't believe in ( for me ) is interesting and furthers my understanding of the atheist.
Atheism does affect how you conduct your life, to deny this is ( in my honest opinion ) slightly dishonest, this forum and the old Beeb is littered with stories regarding how some ( I said some ) atheists have rebelled against theism, taking children out of Prayer time or school assembly which has a religious take, Christians are often accused of child indoctrination, but is this true of atheists.
So to continue, if I may!!
I would first like to thank Jeremyp for being open about his thoughts on God, I think when most atheists think on God it is the Christian definition that comes to mind.
my minimal concept of God is "intelligent being that created the Universe".
Also
The idea that God is the creator of our Universe is probably common to all
I would like to ask other atheists if they agree with Jeremyp, is your first thought of God Jeremyp's definition.
Jack Knaves replies are interesting.
This just goes to show how nebulous and flexible the word God is to various people, that such extremes can be had for one word; making it meaningless.
Yes I have come across such ideas of God. Shaker did a pantheistic thread fairly recently, but the ideas of pantheism have been know to me for decades. What is said in the quote you have provided pretty much makes that God almost synonymous with the laws of physics, or at least it is an element of it.
This was mentioned in Shakers opening post on Pantheism.
Pantheism is monistic in that it views the universe as composed of only one kind of stuff, the same stuff as modern physics, i.e. matter-energy, but chooses to call this 'God' to express a religiously reverent attitude and reaction toward it.
One of the most common objections to pantheism is linguistic; namely, that to use a word such as 'God' when actually referring to the totality of nature/the universe is both misleading to others and superfluous, since words already exist for those concepts. Arthur Schopenhauer said: "To call the world 'God' is not to explain it; it is only to enrich our language with a superfluous synonym for the word 'world'."
Paul Harrison counters this by saying that for pantheists the word 'God' — the theos in pantheos — is appropriate to use because while it is entirely different from the theos of monotheism, it fulfils the same function; it is a focal point of awe, mystery, wonderment and reverence. Explaining the world is the proper business of science; pantheism is the emotional and aesthetic reaction to that endeavour. Pantheism is predicated upon an emotional reaction to and engagement with the natural world — a nature-based spirituality:
Sorry this is the link to Shakers thread on Pantheism.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11616.0
I see a similarity when I read some atheist postings regarding science/nature, the words awe, mystery and wonderment are used, maybe not reverence, but I think a reverence for science and nature is very appropriate.
Hell! Vlads pin up boy ( sorry other pin up boy ) Prof Brian Cox loves the word miracle, the one I remember is,
It is a miracle that we are even here
You bet your ass dear Prof, it is a miracle! a Super-Natural miracle.
To end, this is my attempt to open up the discussion on what God is or is not, my attempt to understand the mind of the atheist.
Gonnagle.
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I teeter on the brink of atheism these days, Gonners, although I identify as a pantheist. I've moved from theism to whaterveritisism (how helpful are labels? not sure).
I don't understand what it is you think would make you on shaky ground when talking to the likes of me. But if you want to understand what I think it is probably best summed up as - this is most likely all there is so we'd better make the most of it. Oh, and we're not particularly important so don't get delusions of grandeur, but don't sweat it either.
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Not 'reverence'; respect. Reverence implies lesser/greater, and yes people have widely varying amounts of knowledge and understanding, but no human being is 'better' than any other. I always remember one snooty woman who, when talking of the Somali servants, said, 'But don't you think we are better than they are?'
My concept of God was always, even as a child, an invisible something with, once or twice, a voice.
Once you know that everything that humans have ever done, or thought, or said, or written has been done 100% by humans, a species which evolved from a common ancestor ape,. then it is impossible to return to a God/god/s belief, especially since scientific knowledge of every sort daily increases, removing more and more of the Goddidit-filled gaps.
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Dear Rhiannon,
You are on your own path, we all are, I have absolutely no problem with that, this religious stuff is a very personal journey, I can't be a Vlad/Corrie/Alan Burns/TW :o/Hope/Brownie Christian, I can only be a Gonnagle type Christian ( although I am right and they are all wrong, and no I have no problem with ego ::) ).
I have no problem talking to you, I suppose I am on some sort of evangelical crusade, but not to convert anyone to Christianity, just to open up a thought of God, I honestly don't understand a complete denial of God ( evidence, evidence ) a higher power, for me it is all there in art, poetry, music, nature, science, hell! the discussions we have had on this forum prove that we are all spiritual and religious creatures but I do know that I fall down when I try to define God.
So just trying to mix the two, atheists and their thoughts, if they have any on God/gods.
Gonnagle.
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Atheism does affect how you conduct your life, to deny this is ( in my honest opinion ) slightly dishonest, this forum and the old Beeb is littered with stories regarding how some ( I said some ) atheists have rebelled against theism, taking children out of Prayer time or school assembly which has a religious take, Christians are often accused of child indoctrination, but is this true of atheists.
You claim "atheism does affect how you conduct your life" and then give a very particular example of a reaction to having faith and then not having it.
Any major change in life is going to affect the way you conduct it - and changing from faith to rationality ;) is certainly a change.
If there is no transition, however, your claim becomes more problematic - some things will be different; if you don't have a faith, you are unlikely to regularly attend a place of worship, for example.
If you think there is more than that then you need to say what you think it is and support it with some evidence.
On your other points:-
I already responded to Jeremy.
On pantheism - I'm basically with Arthur Schopenhauer. I do find awe, mystery and wonderment in nature and science (and mathematics) but see no reason to have another word for it in order to express it. I guess it's a personal choice. If a pantheist's god is the universe then there is ample evidence that their 'god' exists and no faith is needed.
You bet your ass dear Prof, it is a miracle! a Super-Natural miracle.
What does "Super-Natural" mean and how do you know it's a "Super-Natural miracle"?
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Dear Stranger,
You claim "atheism does affect how you conduct your life" and then give a very particular example of a reaction to having faith and then not having it.
What!!? not sure what you are asking, there have been examples of people losing their faith and it then returning.
If you think there is more than that then you need to say what you think it is and support it with some evidence.
Evidence for what, a higher power, for me ( I stress for me ) it is the whole, the Universe, the world, Mankind, science, art, poetry, music, but more, my walk through life with Our Lord Jesus.
Super-Natural, supernatural has been done to death on this forum, it can't be proven, but Super-Natural is all around us, the things we take for granted, the sun, the moon, birth, death, the wonder and awe of nature.
A spot of wee Albert says it better than I ever can.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Gonnagle.
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Dear Susan,
Respect is a good word but I think reverence is better, it gives science and nature something more.
but no human being is 'better' than any other.
Very true, that is one of the main messages in the Gospels but Our Lord goes further, our role is to serve mankind, in serving mankind we praise God.
My concept of God was always, even as a child, an invisible something with, once or twice, a voice.
A voice! never had a voice, maybe the repeated mantra in my own head of " told you so".
a species which evolved from a common ancestor ape,.
Ape like Susan, I am almost positive I have that bit about evolution right, ape like.
Gonnagle.
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What!!? not sure what you are asking, there have been examples of people losing their faith and it then returning.
Evidence for what, a higher power, for me ( I stress for me ) it is the whole, the Universe, the world, Mankind, science, art, poetry, music, but more, my walk through life with Our Lord Jesus.
No, I was trying to ascertain how you think atheism affects how people conduct their lives in general (aside from the specific example you gave) and what evidence you had (other than specific examples).
You said
Atheism does affect how you conduct your life, to deny this is ( in my honest opinion ) slightly dishonest, this forum and the old Beeb is littered with stories regarding how some ( I said some ) atheists have rebelled against theism, taking children out of Prayer time or school assembly which has a religious take...
and I was trying to clarify.
Super-Natural, supernatural has been done to death on this forum, it can't be proven, but Super-Natural is all around us, the things we take for granted, the sun, the moon, birth, death, the wonder and awe of nature.
How is that different from natural...?
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Gonners,
I refer you to my response 54. To emphasise the point, I don't believe in any particular god, and, yes, I would generally go along with Jeremy's definition of an "intelligent being which created the universe", which to me is very similar to my own idea of "some sort of conscious presence", which I have already stated.
As regards my attitude towards the natural world, like Susan, my word would probably be respect rather than reverence, because the word 'reverence' could suggest some sort connected divinity which I certainly do not feel. I do however, at times, feel a sense of wonder and awe at the sheer complexity of natural things, but never a feeling of any divinity at all. I think the word 'miracle' may well be used in a very loose sense here to describe my emotional reaction at times to the fact that I am simply a part of this natural world, but never in the supernatural sense that you seem to see it. I can't possibly see "the sun, the moon, birth, death, the wonder and awe of nature." in any supernatural way. It seems to me to be a total prostitution of the word 'supernatural'.
However, each to their own. :)
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Gonners, I've had a belief in God - gids, all kinds - and ultimately found them all wanting.
Of course life is mysterious; I don't know what is going to happen when I step outside my front door let alone what made the universe come into being. But there's no reason to think that the answer to any of the mystery is God-shaped.
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Dear Stranger,
Ah right! well an example would be Sunday opening, Sunday I presume for atheists is just another day, another would be Bishops in the House of Lords or Christmas, just a holiday, that kind of thinking, and before I am jumped on, not all atheists might think like that, these are just examples.
Super-Natural is no different from natural, it is just my way of expressing its wonder, its awe, I tend to think that we take it for granted, it should be revered, protected, for me, it is a gift from God.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Enki,
It seems to me to be a total prostitution of the word 'supernatural'.
Then I am a whore, all nature should be regarded as Super.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
But there's no reason to think that the answer to any of the mystery is God-shaped.
I think that is the question, what is the shape of God?
Gonnagle.
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Dear Stranger,
Ah right! well an example would be Sunday opening, Sunday I presume for atheists is just another day, another would be Bishops in the House of Lords or Christmas, just a holiday, that kind of thinking, and before I am jumped on, not all atheists might think like that, these are just examples.
Super-Natural is no different from natural, it is just my way of expressing its wonder, its awe, I tend to think that we take it for granted, it should be revered, protected, for me, it is a gift from God.
Gonnagle.
To this whateverIamist Gonners, every single day - every single minute - is sacred; I don't need your religion shrinking it to one day a week.
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Dear Rhiannon,
I think that is the question, what is the shape of God?
Gonnagle.
Well no, because there's no answer to be had.
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Ah right! well an example would be Sunday opening, Sunday I presume for atheists is just another day, another would be Bishops in the House of Lords or Christmas, just a holiday, that kind of thinking, and before I am jumped on, not all atheists might think like that...
...and not all theists (especially the non-Christian type) would think Sunday special, want Bishops in the House of Lords etc..
...for me, it is a gift from God.
What is your concept of God? Who or what is the giver?
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Gonners, Alan Watts is talking to me right now ...
'Paradox as it may seem, we likewise find life meaningful only when we have seen that it is without purpose, and know 'the mystery of the universe' only when we are convinced that we know nothing about it at all.'
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Dear Rhiannon,
To this whateverIamist Gonners, every single day - every single minute - is sacred; I don't need your religion shrinking it to one day a week.
A day given over to thinking about that every single day, that every single minute, but this has been debated on other threads, it is just the thinking behind it I was trying to express.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Stranger,
What is your concept of God? Who or what is the giver?
My concept, somewhere within that Pantheist stuff but more, My Lord Jesus walks with me every single day.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
'Paradox as it may seem, we likewise find life meaningful only when we have seen that it is without purpose, and know 'the mystery of the universe' only when we are convinced that we know nothing about it at all.'
Well I agree and disagree, I think there is a purpose but but agree we know nothing at all.
Gonnagle.
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If you know nothing then how can you know there's a purpose?
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My problem with 'purpose' is that it lends itself too easily as an excuse to a life half lived - especially if 'purpose' is becomes God and an afterlife. Lose the idea that there is a 'purpose' behind life and making the most of being truly alive to the present matters a whole lot more.
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Dear Rhiannon,
When I say we know nothing it is my quiet rant against those who throw science at me, I love science but we have only scratched the surface.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Purpose? even with no God involved, leave this planet in better shape than you found it.
Gonnagle.
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My concept, somewhere within that Pantheist stuff but more, My Lord Jesus walks with me every single day.
More what?
What does "My Lord Jesus walks with me every single day" mean to you (assuming you don't think a literal 2000 old human knocks on your door for a stroll in the garden each day)?
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Dear Rhiannon,
Purpose? even with no God involved, leave this planet in better shape than you found it.
Gonnagle.
But that is a purpose I can choose to give my life, or not. I might choose to love more, learn more, live more. But it's my meaning, not yours or anyone else's. It's not the universal purpose to life.
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Dear Stranger,
What does "My Lord Jesus walks with me every single day" mean to you
In my head, never far from my thoughts.
Just wondering, do you think atheists dislike talking about how atheism affects their lives?
Gonnagle.
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Just wondering, do you think atheists dislike talking about how atheism affects their lives?
Gonnagle.
I just think it is a diificult question to answer. How does a lack of belief in something effect your life? I have never had a belief so can't compare to what life would be like if I did. The only thing I would say is perhaps a little irritation at 'religious speak', but I get the same irritation about arty talk too :-)
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The biggest difference for me now is that I feel no need to justify my beliefs any more, no emotional investment in being 'right'.
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In my head, never far from my thoughts.
You mean you think about the bible character a lot or think you are communicating with a real entity separate from yourself or something else?
Just wondering, do you think atheists dislike talking about how atheism affects their lives?
I doubt there is one answer to that - we are all individuals, you know. :)
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Dear Rhiannon,
But that is a purpose I can choose to give my life, or not. I might choose to love more, learn more, live more. But it's my meaning, not yours or anyone else's. It's not the universal purpose to life.
Then maybe it should be, see!! thing is, I agree with Dawkins in his book The God Delusion, he says something like, humans are a species evolved to judge the speed of an antelope running so they can accurately throw their spear, i.e, we are not that bright, or Einstein when he says,
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Maybe we need a universal purpose, like one day a week allocated to everyone, where there is no commerce, no capitalism, a day for quiet contemplation, we ban cars from being used, except in extreme circumstances, we walk or cycle.
But yes, the above is a pipe dream, silly Gonnagle, that is just plain daft, the above would impinge on my freedom, aye freedom, freedom to tell nature it can go F*** itself.
Gonnagle.
PS: ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Dear Enki,
Then I am a whore, all nature should be regarded as Super.
Gonnagle.
Super, yes, but not supernatural. This is surely a misappropriation of the meaning of the word. If, on the other hand, you are making up your own word "Super-Natural", I haven't a clue what that means, just as I have no idea of what your " Super-Natural miracle" actually means?
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My Pagan deities are like those of the Greeks, the Romans and the Norsemen. They are far more human that the Christian deity. They have human failings, human emotions.
They did not create the universe or the world, they inhabit it just as we do.
Oh, and they don't give a tinker's damn if we believe in them or not.
So where do you say the universe, and all things, came from then?
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Dear Stranger,
Trite, well thank you! but if it is all the same to you I will continue to be trite, why! because I want to know, to understand.
On this forum the amount of times I and other theists are told, what is it you don't understand about the word atheism, well news flash, I understand the word atheism it is the atheist that baffles me.
The last time I tried to have a discussion about how atheism affects the life of an atheist I realised that I was on shaky ground, I was asking them about something which is quite personal, especially those who had travelled from theism into atheism.
So for me, asking them which God/gods they don't believe in ( for me ) is interesting and furthers my understanding of the atheist.
Atheism does affect how you conduct your life, to deny this is ( in my honest opinion ) slightly dishonest, this forum and the old Beeb is littered with stories regarding how some ( I said some ) atheists have rebelled against theism, taking children out of Prayer time or school assembly which has a religious take, Christians are often accused of child indoctrination, but is this true of atheists.
So to continue, if I may!!
I would first like to thank Jeremyp for being open about his thoughts on God, I think when most atheists think on God it is the Christian definition that comes to mind.
Also
I would like to ask other atheists if they agree with Jeremyp, is your first thought of God Jeremyp's definition.
Jack Knaves replies are interesting.
This was mentioned in Shakers opening post on Pantheism.
Sorry this is the link to Shakers thread on Pantheism.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11616.0
I see a similarity when I read some atheist postings regarding science/nature, the words awe, mystery and wonderment are used, maybe not reverence, but I think a reverence for science and nature is very appropriate.
Hell! Vlads pin up boy ( sorry other pin up boy ) Prof Brian Cox loves the word miracle, the one I remember is,
You bet your ass dear Prof, it is a miracle! a Super-Natural miracle.
To end, this is my attempt to open up the discussion on what God is or is not, my attempt to understand the mind of the atheist.
Gonnagle.
Interesting post.
Don't know if this is going to help but as a wee lad I had what I considered at the time an awareness of my personal God. A kind of personal phone line to Mr Big. In my teens and twenties I explored this more with respect to other people and religions, namely the Christian church. It was when I came across Carl Jung and his ideas that I understood intuitively what this was and what he said was correct, but by that time I had a broad overview of many of the ideas of the Gods and so I have no real go to image or conditioned preconceived concept of God that some have that have been forged from their early years and experiences.
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Dear Stranger,
In my head, never far from my thoughts.
Just wondering, do you think atheists dislike talking about how atheism affects their lives?
Gonnagle.
I'm sure you have been told this before but all atheism means is a lack of belief in God(s). It has no agenda beyond that and therefore has no policies to apply to ones life. The various reactions of atheists to things that look to be a function of their atheism is a personal disposition of theirs not a necessary follow through from atheism per se. So atheists will take different turnings and directions based on that single position of being an atheist.
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Gonnagle,
Can you not see their hearts and minds hardening to God as the thread continues.
Belief and acceptance of Christ, is the individuals choice.
To those being saved it is the message of salvation and love.
To those lost it is simply foolishness.
When someone sits on the throne of their own lives and sees nothing but what they want to see in front of them.
Then truth is not at the heart of what they seek. It is sad, but you would do well, to know when to stop conversing with some as it only hardens their hearts. :) :(
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Gonnagle,
Can you not see their hearts and minds hardening to God as the thread continues.
Belief and acceptance of Christ, is the individuals choice.
To those being saved it is the message of salvation and love.
To those lost it is simply foolishness.
When someone sits on the throne of their own lives and sees nothing but what they want to see in front of them.
Then truth is not at the heart of what they seek. It is sad, but you would do well, to know when to stop conversing with some as it only hardens their hearts. :) :(
How is accepting Christ working out for you?
You life seems a disaster area with people dead and dying all around you.
Where is your god?
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When someone sits on the throne of their own lives and sees nothing but what they want to see in front of them.
Sound like those with religious faith....
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How is accepting Christ working out for you?
You life seems a disaster area with people dead and dying all around you.
Where is your god?
My God is here helping me through it...
The world is full of disasters and people dying. All eventually die, don't they?
Is there really any logic in saying because sad things happen it lessens Gods reality.
The fact is God exists. That truth does not lessen because of grief or sorrow. But it is heightened and it increases knowing that my loved ones will be in eternity with my Father and I. When the time comes and everyone dies, they are not lying in the grave all that time knowing about time. As they close their eyes in death they are already awake on the other side to our heavenly Father. Because whilst they decay they know nothing about the time. It is literally like falling asleep and waking up no time lapse in between. My family will all arise together at the same time and no time lapse known.
Life has been difficult but I have a promise from my heavenly Father.
King James Bible
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
New International Version
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
All things will work for my good. The truth of God is not dependent on what is happening in the world.
As a believer, what happens in my life does not affect the fact God exists. Whilst most of the world blame God for all the sad things. We really should be thankful he is real and we can know it. It makes sense that though sad things happen that good things still lie ahead. Both in this world and the next.
I have been torn at heart and laid very low at times. But rather than being the object of blame. Knowing the truth that God is real, I have someone to cling to and whom I know gives me light and reason to go on in this world.
For myself, speaking personally, God gets me through the bad times he isn't the blame for them.
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The fact is God exists.
That's a belief, not a fact.
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That's a belief, not a fact.
Had you walked in my shoes you would know it is a fact.
The thing is, if you loved truth you could know it for yourself.
When you have gone through the things my family and I, have gone through. Then and only then can you say what we claim to be fact any different.
Whilst you can claim it true for yourself, you can by no means claim it true for anyone else.
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Had you walked in my shoes you would know it is a fact.
The thing is, if you loved truth you could know it for yourself.
When you have gone through the things my family and I, have gone through. Then and only then can you say what we claim to be fact any different.
Whilst you can claim it true for yourself, you can by no means claim it true for anyone else.
Belief, not fact.
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Had you walked in my shoes you would know it is a fact.
The thing is, if you loved truth you could know it for yourself.
When you have gone through the things my family and I, have gone through. Then and only then can you say what we claim to be fact any different.
Whilst you can claim it true for yourself, you can by no means claim it true for anyone else.
If your god is what you say he is, why has your family and those around you gone through so much?
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If your god is what you say he is, why has your family and those around you gone through so much?
He does indeed seem to be, as Rhiannon observed only yesterday, a bit rubbish to say the least.
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He does indeed seem to be, as Rhiannon observed only yesterday, a bit rubbish to say the least.
Well explain remember that death and disease are part of life. That accidents happen to everyone.
So tell us why God is rubbish... Because I see eternal life, forgiveness, healing and being kept in his love as not rubbish at all.
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Well explain remember that death and disease are part of life. That accidents happen to everyone.
So tell us why God is rubbish... Because I see eternal life, forgiveness, healing and being kept in his love as not rubbish at all.
Death, disease and accidents ... could this God character have constructed a universe without these things?
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Belief and acceptance of Christ, is the individuals choice.
No its not. I can't just choose to believe in something.
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No its not. I can't just choose to believe in something.
Have you tried? Otherwise it's a self fulfilling prophecy :)
;)
🌹
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We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.
Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.
Can you come up with an argument to prove/show that god is not just speaking to/through you
That those of us here without faith will understand, without you having to reference the so-called "New Testament" which is only really a book, like the Sherlock Holmes, Narnia and LOTR books!!
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Have you tried? Otherwise it's a self fulfilling prophecy :)
;)
🌹
How can you try to believe in something exactly?
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How can you try to believe in something exactly?
You learn about it, usually a good start :D
That's what that alpha course was trying to do.
I think a person can be swayed by being involved with people who believe.
It's a bit like picking up an accent.
Its like the saying birds of a feather flock together and I think we very often pick up things from the people around us.
That can be attitudes or even beliefs.
It's a survival thing, so we fit in.
Apparently we all do it to a degree, some more than others.
I read that somewhere, that we unconsciously mimic each other.
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I reckon some do it more than others.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/7931299/Humans-subconsciously-mimic-other-accents-psychologists-claim.html
I think that sometimes people pick up on beliefs as well, depending on who they mix with.
In that sense, perhaps you can choose your beliefs.
But the ability to choose might be determined on a subconscious level.
So some can, while others can't.
( in the same way some people pick up accents really quickly and another person doesn't )
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We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.
Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.
The Existence of a "God" is true for many, their God fits the ideology of the people who believe in that God.
Does that mean that these Gods exist?
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You learn about it, usually a good start :D
That's what that alpha course was trying to do.
I think a person can be swayed by being involved with people who believe.
It's a bit like picking up an accent.
Its like the saying birds of a feather flock together and I think we very often pick up things from the people around us.
That can be attitudes or even beliefs.
It's a survival thing, so we fit in.
Apparently we all do it to a degree, some more than others.
I read that somewhere, that we unconsciously mimic each other.
The wiring of the brain can be changed by study and exposure to influences over a long period of time. This I think could make someone a believer who wasn't. I don't think that is trying to believe though exactly, but I know what you mean.
I grew up in a nonimally Christian household and am aware of the message but it means nothing to me - it doesn't chime with my way of thinking (how my brain is wired).
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The wiring of the brain can be changed by study and exposure to influences over a long period of time. This I think could make someone a believer who wasn't. I don't think that is trying to believe though exactly, but I know what you mean.
I grew up in a nonimally Christian household and am aware of the message but it means nothing to me - it doesn't chime with my way of thinking (how my brain is wired).
:) thanks Maeght interesting post 🌹
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Just wondering, do you think atheists dislike talking about how atheism affects their lives?
Do you think some theists dislike talking about their concept of god?
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Dear Stranger,
Do you think some theists dislike talking about their concept of god?
Not this one old chap ;)
Gonnagle.
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Not this one old chap ;)
Well, I did ask and I still don't have much of a clue. Like pantheism but "more" and some "walking with Jesus" but not literally (I think)....
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Dear Stranger,
Discuss or deride?
Gonnagle.
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Discuss or deride?
Is it worthy of derision? Thing is, fundamentalist types are always telling us about their versions of god but whenever I've tried to get to the bottom of what more liberal Christians actually think god is, they don't seem to want to talk about it. I've noted this on several occasions. I'm curious.
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Dear Stranger,
Liberal Christians!! I don't see myself as a "liberal" Christian, I am a back to basic type Christian, before organised Churches got its grubby hands on it.
The problem with Christianity? Christians!
Gonnagle.
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Dear Stranger,
Liberal Christians!! I don't see myself as a "liberal" Christian, I am a back to basic type Christian, before organised Churches got its grubby hands on it.
The problem with Christianity? Christians!
Gonnagle.
Care to name a few in particular Gonners?
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Death, disease and accidents ... could this God character have constructed a universe without these things?
He did, but YOU man, invited Satan into the equation and you handed yourself, your life and destiny over to someone who loves to see you suffer.
Now the bible is clear. You like Adam the first man always blame your own failings on someone else.
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Ever since man has never owned up to his own failings and being the cause of the suffering for all mankind.
The truth is in Gods garden of Eden and the World it was all SAFE till Adam ate that fruit.
God put's us right with him through faith and even that you cannot get right as a man.
So why are you so surprised that you deliberately ignore the fact you and YOU alone are responsible for your own destiny.
Like Adam, you have a choice to obey God and live or ignore him and die.
What is it with men not taking responsibility for their own actions or believing that they can ignore the truth and it will go away.
You live with the consqeuences of your actions. If you get into a car drunk and kill someone. Whose fault is the accident?
A force of nature is not an accident it is the earth in it's fallen state,. BUT you think that you somehow have an argument.
God made a good world and everything good. Read Genesis chapters 1-3. But man disobeyed and made it what it is today.
So instead of complaining about God look in the mirror. Your ancestors chose for you today and you keep on ignoring the fact you live the life you choose.
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He did, but YOU man, invited Satan into the equation and you handed yourself, your life and destiny over to someone who loves to see you suffer.
Now the bible is clear. You like Adam the first man always blame your own failings on someone else.
Ever since man has never owned up to his own failings and being the cause of the suffering for all mankind.
The truth is in Gods garden of Eden and the World it was all SAFE till Adam ate that fruit.
God put's us right with him through faith and even that you cannot get right as a man.
So why are you so surprised that you deliberately ignore the fact you and YOU alone are responsible for your own destiny.
Like Adam, you have a choice to obey God and live or ignore him and die.
What is it with men not taking responsibility for their own actions or believing that they can ignore the truth and it will go away.
You live with the consqeuences of your actions. If you get into a car drunk and kill someone. Whose fault is the accident?
A force of nature is not an accident it is the earth in it's fallen state,. BUT you think that you somehow have an argument.
God made a good world and everything good. Read Genesis chapters 1-3. But man disobeyed and made it what it is today.
So instead of complaining about God look in the mirror. Your ancestors chose for you today and you keep on ignoring the fact you live the life you choose.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You really are a character, Sassy!
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He did, but YOU man, invited Satan into the equation and you handed yourself, your life and destiny over to someone who loves to see you suffer.
Pretty sure I didn't do anything of the kind - I'm sure I would have remembered.
And then this Satan character (I use the word character advisedly) existed/s at all only due to God and can do nothing and have no influence over anyone or anything but with God's say-so - if you regard God as omnipotent, that is. Do you or don't you? Hope always dodges the question; let's see if you'll fare any better.[/quote]
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Pretty sure I didn't do anything of the kind - I'm sure I would have remembered.
And then this Satan character (I use the word character advisedly) existed/s at all only due to God and can do nothing and have no influence over anyone or anything but with God's say-so - if you regard God as omnipotent, that is. Do you or don't you? Hope always dodges the question; let's see if you'll fare any better.
She probably won't dodge it, but be prepared for some idiotic, half-baked diatribe of buybull quotations that "explain it". :D
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Pretty sure I didn't do anything of the kind - I'm sure I would have remembered.
And then this Satan character (I use the word character advisedly) existed/s at all only due to God and can do nothing and have no influence over anyone or anything but with God's say-so - if you regard God as omnipotent, that is. Do you or don't you? Hope always dodges the question; let's see if you'll fare any better.
I seem to remember, during my investigations at the British Library, somewthing about God allowing Satan to operate in the world to test people's faith in him (God) so that he9god) would know which ones to send to Hell! I will have to look up the exact references, but as they are literary and written by so-called divines and not biblical Sassy will reject them out of hand anyway!
What kind of right bastard does that?
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I seem to remember, during my investigations at the British Library, somewthing about God allowing Satan to operate in the world to test people's faith in him (God) so that he9god) would know which ones to send to Hell! I will have to look up the exact references, but as they are literary and written by so-called divines and not biblical Sassy will reject them out of hand anyway!
What kind of right bastard does that?
The imagined Christian God?
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The imagined Christian God?
Three points and a bonus mark to LJ.
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Well explain remember that death and disease are part of life. That accidents happen to everyone.
But they seem to happen to you and your loved ones far more than most of the rest of us on this board. It's almost as if your god doesn't care about you.
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But they seem to happen to you and your loved ones far more than most of the rest of us on this board. It's almost as if your god doesn't care about you.
I confess that the same thought had occurred to me. The family gene pool sounds rather negative.
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I confess that the same thought had occurred to me. The family gene pool sounds rather negative.
I think I noted somewhere that her life is a disaster area with people dead or dying all around.
I would prefer to keep my distance.
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I think I noted somewhere that her life is a disaster area with people dead or dying all around.
I would prefer to keep my distance.
You have nothing to worry about BR - her problems are nothing more than her god testing her faith and her attachement to his tyrannical rule!
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her problems are nothing more than her god testing her faith and her attachement to his tyrannical rule!
Yes but her problems seem to mostly take the form of bad things happening to her loved ones. Imagine how Sassy's friends and relations must feel going up to Heaven at the end of a debilitating and painful illness to find out that God put them through it only to test Sassy's faith.
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Yes but her problems seem to mostly take the form of bad things happening to her loved ones. Imagine how Sassy's friends and relations must feel going up to Heaven at the end of a debilitating and painful illness to find out that God put them through it only to test Sassy's faith.
Do you honestly think that the god of the Christians gives a tuppenny damn what anyone thinks about anything he does to whomsoever he pleases?
He allowed his own son to be crucified, why would he cars about anyone else? And his son was crucified for our sins, which we commit at the incitement of Satan whom the selfsame god let loose on this world to test our faith by inveigling us into sin - if you look at it in one way, Jesus died so Daddy could still have his fun playing with mere mortals because mortals think thay can sin as much as they like 'cos Jeus diesdto "take away the sins of the world" - isn't that the wording used?
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Do you honestly think that the god of the Christians gives a tuppenny damn what anyone thinks about anything he does to whomsoever he pleases?
He allowed his own son to be crucified, why would he cars about anyone else? And his son was crucified for our sins, which we commit at the incitement of Satan whom the selfsame god let loose on this world to test our faith by inveigling us into sin - if you look at it in one way, Jesus died so Daddy could still have his fun playing with mere mortals because mortals think thay can sin as much as they like 'cos Jeus diesdto "take away the sins of the world" - isn't that the wording used?
But God raised him from the dead Swing since you have invoked God as Jesus' daddy.
As for the rest of what you put......are you remembering to take the tablets before your meals and the green and white capsules after food?
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But God raised him from the dead . . .
Clearly Jesus did not know that he was to be raised from the dead. Wlse why would he ask "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Swing since you have invoked God as Jesus' daddy.
WTF does this piece of garbage mean?
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Clearly Jesus did not know that he was to be raised from the dead. Wlse why would he ask "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"
I think he may have believed it at one point but you are right to point out that he ceased to believe he would be anything but abandoned by God on the cross.
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I think I noted somewhere that her life is a disaster area with people dead or dying all around.
I would prefer to keep my distance.
Why?
Do you think it's contagious?
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Why?
Do you think it's contagious?
Depressing is more the word.
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Why?
Do you think it's contagious?
The closer you get, the more in danger it seems you are.