Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 06, 2016, 10:57:23 AM
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In answer to a request for a thread on experiences.
I summarised mine here
Re: Food for thought for Christians « Reply #175 on: April 03, 2016, 12:18:30 PM
and described it thus: What I can say, by dint of explaining my experience, is that this is unlike say liking Chopin. It has the hallmarks of being a proper encounter namely of surprise, of awareness, of new and affective information and disturbance of ego, and against personal bias.
I think the idea now is that people feel free to relate experience.
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That's not a description of your experience, though, it's your conclusion.
To "relate experience", we would need to share a description of the actual experience.
ht
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Dear Horsethorn,
The actual event, how we felt in that moment, is that what you are asking.
Gonnagle.
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That's not a description of your experience, though, it's your conclusion.
To "relate experience", we would need to share a description of the actual experience.
ht
Perhaps you can show us how it is done?
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Perhaps you can show us how it is done?
Certainly.
When I was meditating/journeying, I experienced a 'moment out of time'; approaching me from between the two boughs of a tree were a succession of goddesses - I recall Mary, Isis, Rhiannon, Freya, possibly Parvati, and others. They did not speak, but I was told that they were all the same Goddess, and everything was part of Her. I also recall a feeling of peace, and of being on the right path.
That's about as much detail as I remember of that one.
Note that I gave no conclusion, just a description of what I experienced.
Your turn.
ht
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Well, that really was a big experience Horsethorn!
Mine was a quiet one. All I can say is that I was reading something (I do remember what it was I was reading but I doubt anyone else would be interested), and suddenly everything seemed to fall into place. I was no longer uncertain and did feel quite emotional as if great weights were taken off my shoulders. It definitely changed me.
I must be honest, though, the change didn't last. The memory of the experience has always stayed with me and I go back to it in my mind which is helpful but I certainly slipped quite a bit, especially a few years afterwards.
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Dear Horsethorn,
Sorry but I am going to go all atheist on you.
1. You put meditating/journeying, do you equate meditation as some kind of journey?
2. Moment out of time, what is that?
3. They did not speak, but you were told!!
4. Feeling of peace?
5. Same Goddess, everything was part of her, who, or is that whom?
I don't dismiss your experience just trying to understand.
The only one I can loosely relate to is the feeling of peace, but mine was more of surrender, my shoulders slumped, a release of some kind.
Gonnagle.
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I have mentioned this 'experience/dream' before, but will relate it again. I don't know when it actually occurred as it has been with me as long as I can remember, which is right back to the cradle.
I was an angel up in heaven (feel free to laugh), when god, who presented as a bright white light, told me it was my turn to do my bit on earth. I protested as I didn't fancy the idea, but ended up down here anyway. No doubt I am now a fallen angel. ;D However, that experience didn't stop me losing my faith.
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Well, that really was a big experience Horsethorn!
Mine was a quiet one. All I can say is that I was reading something (I do remember what it was I was reading but I doubt anyone else would be interested), and suddenly everything seemed to fall into place. I was no longer uncertain and did feel quite emotional as if great weights were taken off my shoulders. It definitely changed me.
I must be honest, though, the change didn't last. The memory of the experience has always stayed with me and I go back to it in my mind which is helpful but I certainly slipped quite a bit, especially a few years afterwards.
Sometimes the "small" ones are more important...
ht
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Dear Horsethorn,
Sorry but I am going to go all atheist on you.
1. You put meditating/journeying, do you equate meditation as some kind of journey?
Journeying is a specific meditation technique used in core shamanism :)
2. Moment out of time, what is that?
When time seems to stop and you see everything with an abnormal clarity.
3. They did not speak, but you were told!!
Yep. The information was transferred non-verbally :)
4. Feeling of peace?
Calm, relaxed, happy, comfortable, not anxious or concerned.
5. Same Goddess, everything was part of her, who, or is that whom?
Who (or whom) doesn't matter; they are all One.
I don't dismiss your experience just trying to understand.
The only one I can loosely relate to is the feeling of peace, but mine was more of surrender, my shoulders slumped, a release of some kind.
Gonnagle.
As I said to Brownie - sometimes the "small" experiences are more important; "Bigger" experiences take a very long time to process, I've found.
ht
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I have mentioned this 'experience/dream' before, but will relate it again. I don't know when it actually occurred as it has been with me as long as I can remember, which is right back to the cradle.
I was an angel up in heaven (feel free to laugh), when god, who presented as a bright white light, told me it was my turn to do my bit on earth. I protested as I didn't fancy the idea, but ended up down here anyway. No doubt I am now a fallen angel. ;D However, that experience didn't stop me losing my faith.
It's interesting that you apply christian terminology to it, though ;)
ht
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The experiences that I have are kind of self brought on.
I feel that I can leave my body and travel to another place. I am aware that I am traveling but can't really see or feel anything. It is as though the everyday world falls away.
When I reawaken I am in a kitchen, fairly bare, just a wooden table and two chairs around it. I find different objects placed on the table every visit and sometimes a dead (before I was born) relative.
We don't talk, but we do talk (impossible to describe really). The discussion is about the object the object or objects on the table. When the relative is not there I just peruse whatever is on the table by myself.
When I return to the "real" world I find an inner peace and resolution to whatever has been on my mind although I am not sure how it has been resolved.
Very odd, but very comforting.
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Dear Horsethorn,
Calm, relaxed, happy, comfortable, not anxious or concerned.
Yes Happiness, I was going to say joy, but not joy, although anxiousness and concern did follow later.
I will try to digest the rest of your post, this journeying sounds fascinating.
Gonnagle.
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That's fascinating, Stephen. Would you say it is (or started as) some kind of guided visualisation, or is/was it a spontaneous experience?
ht
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Dear Horsethorn,
Yes Happiness, I was going to say joy, but not joy, although anxiousness and concern did follow later.
I will try to digest the rest of your post, this journeying sounds fascinating.
Gonnagle.
If you've got any questions, Gonners, just ask - you know I'm quite happy to answer.
Odd that Vlad hasn't joined in yet.
ht
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Sometimes the "small" ones are more important...
ht
When I spoke at my father's funeral, just as I did some introductory thanks to the funeral directors and the priests, I rubbed my finger on the bevelled leather of the very large bible in the crematorium. I remember that as a focus of grounding me to allow me to then talk about my father. The slight roughness, the substance of the book allowed me to know that there and then attention must be paid to my father.
Big things affect us, often in ways that we have no clue of, till the small moments clarify the meaning.
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Dear Stephen,
Excuse my French but wow, fuckin WOW :o
Gonnagle.
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That's fascinating, Stephen. Would you say it is (or started as) some kind of guided visualisation, or is/was it a spontaneous experience?
ht
Not quite sure what you mean. I wasn't shown how to do it. I just remember a series of session of peace and quite when I was taking the opportunity to think about things, when one day I just seemed to travel away. Hard to describe really. Don't know where the relative or the object came from I just kind of arrived.
When I am there, it is not like real life but not like a dream either.
Very odd.
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Dear Stephen,
Excuse my French but wow, f***** WOW :o
Gonnagle.
A wow from me too.
NS, I found your post quite moving.
Floo, you had a really sweet and innocent dream, bless. It was lovely. The nearest I've had to that is when I was a small child, I dreamed a fairy was looking at me from inside the lampshade in my room :), I woke up scared stiff.
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Stephen, fascinating post as others have said, do you mind if I ask if the objects on the table have/seem to have significance, and if so in what way?
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Oh, and while we are on here my differences of opinion with Vlad are known and long-standing but this is a lovely idea for a thread, so doff of the hat, to Vlad.
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Dear Brownie,
I have tears in my eyes, of laughter, did you asterisk my swearing :P
Gonnagle.
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Dear Brownie,
I have tears in my eyes, of laughter, did you asterisk my swearing :P
Gonnagle.
I would have had to put in a g or an apostrophe had I quoted you.
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Dear Sane,
Tell you what old son! This experience stuff is heavy, very heavy, I can totally relate to you and your Fathers funeral, my notes went totally out of the window, everything I wanted to say was there, in that place.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sane,
Tell you what old son! This experience stuff is heavy, very heavy, I can totally relate to you and your Fathers funeral, my notes went totally out of the window, everything I wanted to say was there, in that place.
Gonnagle.
Agree, Gonzo, that's why I had to give Vlad the credit for the thread. This is much more about what unifies us than the insert god figure here a bit of a dick stuff.
Just to add in my brain, I had Fatboy Slim, Death of a Salesman and Sondheim's Assassins on a mash up in my head playing about right here, right now and attention must be paid.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ub747pprmJ8
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Stephen, fascinating post as others have said, do you mind if I ask if the objects on the table have/seem to have significance, and if so in what way?
Not in any obvious way no. They tend to be mundane things. The last time I went it was a digital alarm clock!
The strangest thing is the talking but not talking part of it. Impossible to describe.
As others have said thank you for the moving tale about the funeral.
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Certainly.
When I was meditating/journeying, I experienced a 'moment out of time'; approaching me from between the two boughs of a tree were a succession of goddesses - I recall Mary, Isis, Rhiannon, Freya, possibly Parvati, and others. They did not speak, but I was told that they were all the same Goddess, and everything was part of Her. I also recall a feeling of peace, and of being on the right path.
That's about as much detail as I remember of that one.
Note that I gave no conclusion, just a description of what I experienced.
Your turn.
ht
I think Gonners has asked the questions I would have.
A profound marshalling of spiritual understanding/experience. Would you say?
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It's interesting that you apply christian terminology to it, though ;)
ht
Probably because I was brought up by Christian parents and did the 'saved' bit as a kid.
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Not in any obvious way no. They tend to be mundane things. The last time I went it was a digital alarm clock!
The strangest thing is the talking but not talking part of it. Impossible to describe.
As others have said thank you for the moving tale about the funeral.
I wonder were you to talk about each experience, if you might find some subconscious significance. I am neither a follower, or non follower of Jung, but it's often difficult to identify meaning by looking at the specific.
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Dear Horsethorn,
When time seems to stop and you see everything with an abnormal clarity.
Nope, I think I might be slightly envious, I have had times which I call little epiphanies, times when I suddenly realise I have been doing something the wrong way or when I am doing a repetitious job, digging the allotment, time goes away, and it may sound strange but me and the spade are the only thing. :o
Gonnagle.
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It doesn't sound strange to me at all Gonnagle. Cherish those experiences. I could do with a few!
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I wonder were you to talk about each experience, if you might find some subconscious significance. I am neither a follower, or non follower of Jung, but it's often difficult to identify meaning by looking at the specific.
If I were to hazard a guess I think I am talking about it to my self subconsciously.
I think the actual object is unimportant but it a metaphor for examining, feeling and thinking about the problem.
I never make a connection but I always fell that a problem has been resolved.
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Dear Horsethorn,
Nope, I think I might be slightly envious, I have had times which I call little epiphanies, times when I suddenly realise I have been doing something the wrong way or when I am doing a repetitious job, digging the allotment, time goes away, and it may sound strange but me and the spade are the only thing. :o
Gonnagle.
As Brownie says that sounds familiar, and do cherish those precious moments away from the, mostly, unimportant hustle and bustle of life.
Good luck to you :)
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Dear Brownie,
Oh I do, which leads me onto ask, Horsethorn talks of feeling happy, mine was also happy, Stephen says comforting, good feelings, something in these moments are firing the old brain positively, what?? and why?
In those digging moments I don't feel anything, I am away, but afterwards there is a sense of joy, but that could be the first cracking open of a can of lager and a sense of job well done.
Gonnagle.
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Oh, and while we are on here my differences of opinion with Vlad are known and long-standing but this is a lovely idea for a thread, so doff of the hat, to Vlad.
It's interesting - I suggested this thread to Vlad, and yet he hasn't actually joined in, despite starting it...
ht
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Not quite sure what you mean. I wasn't shown how to do it. I just remember a series of session of peace and quite when I was taking the opportunity to think about things, when one day I just seemed to travel away. Hard to describe really. Don't know where the relative or the object came from I just kind of arrived.
When I am there, it is not like real life but not like a dream either.
Very odd.
Journeying, guided visualisation et al are techniques used in various shamanic and pagan paths - usually with something rhythmic being played, such as drums or chanting - to settle the heart rate and brain function and allow the question or focus to be concentrated up, while remaining relaxed.
It's also (IMHO) similar to doing standing Chi Gung. A means of 'forgetting' the body.
If I were to hazard a guess I think I am talking about it to my self subconsciously.
I think the actual object is unimportant but it a metaphor for examining, feeling and thinking about the problem.
I never make a connection but I always fell that a problem has been resolved.
Yes, that's often how it works. Tarot is similar - it provides a "psychic mirror" for us to reflect our subconscious into manifestation.
ht
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I think Gonners has asked the questions I would have.
A profound marshalling of spiritual understanding/experience. Would you say?
Marshalling? I don't think it was quite that planned or organised :)
How about you? Are you going to describe your experience(s)?
ht
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Marshalling? I don't think it was quite that planned or organised :)
How about you? Are you going to describe your experience(s)?
ht
Certainly.
My experience starts with Sagans Cosmos and particular his idea of a cosmic community.
Very shortly after this I was given CS Lewis mere Christianity and recognised that the cosmic enthusiasm mediated through watching Sagan was a sense of the numinous.
Lewis also talks about God.God of course was for nutters and weak people or was it? That was something I had picked up unquestioningly picked up from my secular humanist roots.
God was now part of the numinous and something tied up to the Cosmos. Further reading of Lewis about God being in the dock. Awareness that God is also involved in morality. Phrase which chimes ! If you put God in the dock you find its you in the dock.
The Bible previously an old book strangely begins to become comprehensible.
Augustine's experience read, ringing words....make me a Christian but not yet.
Huge interest in what actually is the truth...Ringing words Pontius Pilate on truth.
Realisation that there is something behind Lewises and Christian writings.
Reading the bible. words that ring. Follow me and and behold I stand at the door freeze when realise that is true. Walk around in a focus on this which dissociates me from surroundings. Get a mental image of eating a pudding with no flavour as a metaphor for rejecting Christ.
Tell Jesus to take it all. Dissociation vanishes
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Certainly.
My experience starts with Sagans Cosmos and particular his idea of a cosmic community.
Very shortly after this I was given CS Lewis mere Christianity and recognised that the cosmic enthusiasm mediated through watching Sagan was a sense of the numinous.
Lewis also talks about God.God of course was for nutters and weak people or was it? That was something I had picked up unquestioningly picked up from my secular humanist roots.
God was now part of the numinous and something tied up to the Cosmos. Further reading of Lewis about God being in the dock. Awareness that God is also involved in morality. Phrase which chimes ! If you put God in the dock you find its you in the dock.
The Bible previously an old book strangely begins to become comprehensible.
Augustine's experience read, ringing words....make me a Christian but not yet.
Huge interest in what actually is the truth...Ringing words Pontius Pilate on truth.
Realisation that there is something behind Lewises and Christian writings.
Reading the bible. words that ring. Follow me and and behold I stand at the door freeze when realise that is true. Walk around in a focus on this which dissociates me from surroundings. Get a mental image of eating a pudding with no flavour as a metaphor for rejecting Christ.
Tell Jesus to take it all. Dissociation vanishes
Interesting. So your claimed 'experience' was really just a process of reasoning.
Thanks.
ht
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Interesting. So your claimed 'experience' was really just a process of reasoning.
Thanks.
ht
Not sure that is entirely fair. I think Vlad is doing a highlight version of his journey which ends with the experience.
All experience when we try and express it is mediated through a form of reason unless we express through contemporary dance.
Vlad, dressed as a faun, watches a bank of TVS, with Sagan repeating Cosmos, Chaos in a loop. He leaps at the TVS, then hides, making himself as small as possible.
Next a lion, a witch and a wardrobe (note challenge for costume dept) dance round him. The wardrobe puts on a judge's wig and the lion does a pas de trois into a dock. But SUDDENLY the Lion is replaced by the faun. It goes to swear on a large bevelled Bible but, the Bible shouts out 'not KJV but VladV'
From side stage a man wearing a sign saying I'm Augustine, me, appears with a bell but walks off while smoking a joint.
The wardrobe takes off the wig and washes its hands
(on a a screen the disembodied heads of Dennett Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris can be seen can be seen repeating 'You can't handle the truth)
There is a knock on a door at side of stage. The faun jetes to it, it opens, the faun turns to the audience, shrugs and smiles and throws them a shiny polished turd, and walks through.
Curtain.
(apologies to Vlad if this offends. It isn't meant to and I hope it comes across as not mocking of your experience. Rather just seeking to use that experiment as a piece of generalised idiocy)
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Not sure that is entirely fair. I think Vlad is doing a highlight version of his journey which ends with the experience.
Having reread it, you may be correct. Perhaps I was expecting something different, but it comes across as more of a thought process than what I would describe as an 'experience'. Maybe it's Vlad's overly sesquipedalian loquacity that is distracting me - it reads like a meta-rationalisation rather than a simple description.
All experience when we try and express it is mediated through a form of reason unless we express through contemporary dance.
Agreed - but I've tried to describe what I experienced with as little rationalisation as possible. It was quite interesting, going back to the 'source', as it were :)
ht
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Having reread it, you may be correct. Perhaps I was expecting something different, but it comes across as more of a thought process than what I would describe as an 'experience'. Maybe it's Vlad's overly sesquipedalian loquacity that is distracting me - it reads like a meta-rationalisation rather than a simple description.
Agreed - but I've tried to describe what I experienced with as little rationalisation as possible. It was quite interesting, going back to the 'source', as it were :)
ht
One person's loquacity is another's shorthand.
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This is a link to mine.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10858.75
You have to scroll down to Jacks post.
Just saves me typing it all again.
i was just a kid, not had anymore like that since..
The only other occaision which was a bit odd was when time appeared to slow down for me, was when I was involved in a motorcycle accident when I was on the back and the bike slipped on a patch of diesel as we cornered on a stretch of dual carriage way.
It was like the six million dollar man where everything seemed to happen in slow motion.
I think that slow motion thing was something the brain does under stress.
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Journeying is a specific meditation technique used in core shamanism :)
If you have any links could you send them though I would be very interested to hear more about it.
Yep. The information was transferred non-verbally :)
Same in mine. It feels a bit like talking but it isn't. Impossible to describe.
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Having reread it, you may be correct. Perhaps I was expecting something different, but it comes across as more of a thought process than what I would describe as an 'experience'. Maybe it's Vlad's overly sesquipedalian loquacity that is distracting me - it reads like a meta-rationalisation rather than a simple description.
Agreed - but I've tried to describe what I experienced with as little rationalisation as possible. It was quite interesting, going back to the 'source', as it were :)
ht
Who'd have thought it Horsethorn playing " my experience is better than your experience"............what next Horsethorn? "My experience is so great it has its own gravitational field"
Who'd have seen the critique coming?........well, I did.
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Journeying, guided visualisation et al are techniques used in various shamanic and pagan paths - usually with something rhythmic being played, such as drums or chanting - to settle the heart rate and brain function and allow the question or focus to be concentrated up, while remaining relaxed.
That is very interesting.
Recently I have discovered that if I want to go to my other place I can bring on the experience by first having a period of silence and then listening to (or playing, although I am far from perfect) a specific piece of music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvv6vLQfEw
Like you suggest it has a very rhythmic theme. Temolos is a technique on the paino of producing a trembling like sound (sorry if you already new this, didn't want to sound patronising). As you can hear it is a repetitive sound all through the piece, except for the first and last 30 seconds or so.
As the piece gets to about 1 min 30 secs I can start to feel myself dissociate from my body. By the time it gets to 2 min 30 secs I can only describe my feelings as transcendent. This then enables me to go on my journey.
It would be great to have a link to any other music/chanting etc. that you think might have a similar effect.
Very happy to give it a try and see what happens.
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This is a link to mine.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10858.75
You have to scroll down to Jacks post.
Just saves me typing it all again.
i was just a kid, not had anymore like that since..
The only other occaision which was a bit odd was when time appeared to slow down for me, was when I was involved in a motorcycle accident when I was on the back and the bike slipped on a patch of diesel as we cornered on a stretch of dual carriage way.
It was like the six million dollar man where everything seemed to happen in slow motion.
I think that slow motion thing was something the brain does under stress.
Hi, any chance of a post number?
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This is a link to mine.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10858.75
You have to scroll down to Jacks post.
Just saves me typing it all again.
i was just a kid, not had anymore like that since..
The only other occaision which was a bit odd was when time appeared to slow down for me, was when I was involved in a motorcycle accident when I was on the back and the bike slipped on a patch of diesel as we cornered on a stretch of dual carriage way.
It was like the six million dollar man where everything seemed to happen in slow motion.
I think that slow motion thing was something the brain does under stress.
Had a similar experience on a National Express coach. The windscreen shattered as we were overtaking a Lorry. I could see the pieces of glass come up the aisle in very slow motion indeed.
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Hi, any chance of a post number?
Try 113. :)
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Had a similar experience on a National Express coach. The windscreen shattered as we were overtaking a Lorry. I could see the pieces of glass come up the aisle in very slow motion indeed.
Yes apparently that one is common.
http://www.sciencefocus.com/qa/why-do-things-happen-slow-motion-when-you-have-accident
:)
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This is an interesting article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/19/science-behind-spiritual-experiences_n_4078519.html
:)
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Had a similar experience on a National Express coach. The windscreen shattered as we were overtaking a Lorry. I could see the pieces of glass come up the aisle in very slow motion indeed.
I agree. When I was in primary school (age~9) My friend was knocked down by a car (he was in hospital for a week or two) but no permanent damage was done.
I can still recall the actual instant. Which I witnessed.
It was as if it occured in slow motion. It's as though our senses are so alert that they record every detail..
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I have had several 'experiences' throughout my life, but I am going to try here to simply describe what I consider to be the first of such experiences. This happened when I was about 9/10 years old, and I am fully aware that the recollection of that experience may well have altered over time. However the fact that that 'experience' has remained with me to this day, at least, I suggest, points to the emotional power and vividness of such an 'experience'. It was during a warm late evening in Spring that it happened. It started in the most mundane way possible when I decided to go to the toilet(we had an outside toilet). Instead of going to the toilet, I walked to the bottom of our back garden, which looked onto a large enclosed rough wasteland surrounded by houses, which had once been a large allotments(during the war) but had now fallen into complete disuse. The air was still, the night was dark. I'm fairly certain there was no moon, indeed I don't even remember any stars showing so it may well have been overcast.
For some reason, unkown to me, then or now, I walked into this patch of waste ground for some distance, and sat down. I knew that I was completely alone sitting there with no particular sounds to break the silence.(it was a time before cars became the norm in our area). I think I remember the distant barking of a dog, but I could well be mistaken. I know that I could see the lights from some of the houses which were some distance from me, but, as far as I felt, I was totally isolated from any human beings, a feeling which was emphasised by the darkness which surrounded me.
The only way that I can express my feelings, which gradually and increasingly enveloped me, is that I became at one with my surroundings. I wasn't scared or emotionally excited, but had what I would now call an almost natural ambiance with my surroundings. I felt extremely relaxed and at ease with myself. It is extremely hard, if not impossible , to convey what I actually experienced. Looking back on it, the best I can do is suggest that it was as if, at that particular time, I had no need of anyone else at all. Everything seemed focused on this particular point in time, as if I was seeing myself and my surroundings with some sort of clarity which, as a young boy, I had never recognised before. It was an intensively subjective experience which I don't think I shared with anyone until I met my wife. There wasn't any feeling of a god or a pervading consciousness throughout this experience. I do remember however going back in, and my mother telling me that I had been rather a long time on the toilet.
Certain other experiences that I have had since have reinforced that first experience and each one has been a personal, never a shared, experience.
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Sounds marvellous Enki, you were living in the moment, completely experiencing it. 'Mindfulness' springs to - er - mind. I almost envy you that experience.
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Try 113. :)
Amazing. Thank you.
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I've done meditative journeying; the biggest problem that I have is a tendency to fall asleep which makes it go very squiffy, so I don't do it much.
When I've had experiences of something outside of myself I've been conscious on some level that my mind was reaching for them. The exceptions have been in times of serious stress and illness and for these reasons I don't believe either to be authentic, however much I have wanted them to be. There's a limit to how much I can lie to myself.
The experiences that do work for me are the ones out in the elements, such as the one I described in the Today thread, or the consolation that I get from being small beneath clouds and stars. And it really takes no effort - they just seem to happen.
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Dear Rhiannon and Horsethorn,
But why label/name it journeying, are you going somewhere or is it that you are going away from something?
One thing that I have noted on this little wonderful thread, age, enki's is a good example, he was very young, and I would argue that God was exactly what he was experiencing, anyway, age, Jesus tells us that we need to become like children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, I think there is something in that, inner child, as we age we become less connected.
A experience from my childhood which has stuck with me, I am a dreamer, yes! shut up Mr Kipling,
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
Anyway, as I sat and day dreamed I would put my hands together like in prayer but they would not touch and if I moved my hands slightly I could feel a force, like when you try to join two magnets together using their opposing poles, ( is that right ) I can no longer feel that force, we lose something as we age.
Or, or! I was just a strange child ::)
Gonnagle.
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Journeying is definitely going to and from, it's leaving the concrete world behind and going somewhere hidden or unseen.
The experiences I have in nature are those I've always had. I have a very vivid memory of lying in my back garden studying the structure of grass and it was as though that was all there was. As a child my animism was much stronger than now - I could sense the 'personalities' of grass and trees and flowers, and rocks and pebbles. Not so much now, although I sometimes feel it. You might say this is imaginary; most likely it is.
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You might say this is imaginary; most likely it is.
Yes; but the imaginary is also real* :)
* Subjectively, of course.
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If you have any links could you send them though I would be very interested to hear more about it.
https://www.shamanism.org/
http://shamanicdrumming.com/shamanic_journeying.html
I like the books by Sandra Ingerman, Caitlin and John Matthews, and Kenneth Meadows :)
Same in mine. It feels a bit like talking but it isn't. Impossible to describe.
Yes - but I've never wanted to call it 'telepathy'.
ht
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Who'd have thought it Horsethorn playing " my experience is better than your experience"............what next Horsethorn? "My experience is so great it has its own gravitational field"
Who'd have seen the critique coming?........well, I did.
Not even close, Vlad. It was more a case of disappointment. I've read many descriptions of mystic experiences, and after a while you get a good idea of what the commonalities are.
Why don't you tell us more about what you *felt*? And I don't mean when you were reading books.
ht
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Dear Rhiannon,
Animism, a new one for me, which brings a smile to my face, I am a bit of a animist, I often say good morning to tree's and bee's, although they are very rude, they never reply :o
Dear Horsethorn,
I like Vlads description, it sounds like a walk or a journey, he walked into Christianity, nice!
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon and Horsethorn,
But why label/name it journeying, are you going somewhere or is it that you are going away from something?
One thing that I have noted on this little wonderful thread, age, enki's is a good example, he was very young, and I would argue that God was exactly what he was experiencing, anyway, age, Jesus tells us that we need to become like children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, I think there is something in that, inner child, as we age we become less connected.
A experience from my childhood which has stuck with me, I am a dreamer, yes! shut up Mr Kipling,
Anyway, as I sat and day dreamed I would put my hands together like in prayer but they would not touch and if I moved my hands slightly I could feel a force, like when you try to join two magnets together using their opposing poles, ( is that right ) I can no longer feel that force, we lose something as we age.
Or, or! I was just a strange child ::)
Gonnagle.
My interpretation would be clearly different from yours, Gonners. You are clearly welcome to your views, but, looking back, I think it was simply a case of a young mind maturing and becoming aware of itself.
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My youngest daughter had a very nasty experience when she was about 11. She was walking up to the local church for bell ringing practise when she saw the results of an accident, which had just occurred. A biker had been struck by a car and beheaded in the process! :o The poor child was in a terrible state when she got home, and had unpleasant nightmares for a good while. :o
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Anyway, as I sat and day dreamed I would put my hands together like in prayer but they would not touch and if I moved my hands slightly I could feel a force, like when you try to join two magnets together using their opposing poles,
..if only Sparky was here, he would have a name for that! ;)
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Dear enki,
No argument from me old son, one thing I notice on this forum, it runs through the forum like a naked fat jolly person who nobody notices, the atheist shouts, God is all in your mind!! course he is, where else would he be.
Horsethorn shouts it at Floo, Floo had a Christian upbringing, so her experience is coloured Christian, Horsethorns experience is coloured pagan, mine is sometimes, the picture of Jesus meek and mild other times it is the Cross.
Atheist is coloured, well there ain't no God, just an experience, get over it, but in all my chuntering and it is!! Only my opinion, your experience was God, God with no pictures, God with no image, hell! maybe in your experience you were closer to God than I have ever been, the very essence of God. ;)
Gonnagle.
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That is very interesting.
Recently I have discovered that if I want to go to my other place I can bring on the experience by first having a period of silence and then listening to (or playing, although I am far from perfect) a specific piece of music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvv6vLQfEw
Like you suggest it has a very rhythmic theme. Temolos is a technique on the paino of producing a trembling like sound (sorry if you already new this, didn't want to sound patronising). As you can hear it is a repetitive sound all through the piece, except for the first and last 30 seconds or so.
As the piece gets to about 1 min 30 secs I can start to feel myself dissociate from my body. By the time it gets to 2 min 30 secs I can only describe my feelings as transcendent. This then enables me to go on my journey.
It would be great to have a link to any other music/chanting etc. that you think might have a similar effect.
Very happy to give it a try and see what happens.
Nice. I tend to use a recording of a simple drumming session, Buddhist or Gregorian chanting (or the crossover CD I have :) ) or a CD of Hildegard of Bingen's music, called Vision (well worth a listen!).
ht
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Dear enki,
No argument from me old son, one thing I notice on this forum, it runs through the forum like a naked fat jolly person who nobody notices, the atheist shouts, God is all in your mind!! course he is, where else would he be.
Horsethorn shouts it at Floo, Floo had a Christian upbringing, so her experience is coloured Christian, Horsethorns experience is coloured pagan, mine is sometimes, the picture of Jesus meek and mild other times it is the Cross.
Atheist is coloured, well there ain't no God, just an experience, get over it, but in all my chuntering and it is!! Only my opinion, your experience was God, God with no pictures, God with no image, hell! maybe in your experience you were closer to God than I have ever been, the very essence of God. ;)
Gonnagle.
I don't think I've ever *shouted* at Floo? :/
But yes, 'god' is a way of perceiving the world :)
ht
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I don't think I've ever *shouted* at Floo? :/
But yes, 'god' is a way of perceiving the world :)
ht
Ditto. I tend not to shout, at least I hope so. :)
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Dear enki and Horsethorn,
We all shout, but it is like that naked fat man running rampant through the forum, we don't notice it and of course, for the most, it is a very polite form of shouting.
Take a look at the Searching for God thread, thousands of shouts or and I know it is painful :o a Sass post, Voluminus Maximumis ;)
Gonnagle.
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that naked fat man running rampant through the forum
I'm getting (more) worried about what goes on in your head, Gonners...
ht
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Dear Horsethorn,
See them tumbling down, rolling along with the tumbling tumble weed :o
And don't worry, society is very safe, no one seems to want to finance my invasion of Poland :P
Gonnagle.
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but it is like that naked fat man running rampant through the forum,
Oi! Keep me out of your head if you don't mind. ;)
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I have posted before about a description of a certain type of experience in the poem Aberdeen Train by Edwin Morgan, link below. The final line always resonates with me
http://tinyurl.com/gurehqr
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Not even close, Vlad. It was more a case of disappointment. I've read many descriptions of mystic experiences, and after a while you get a good idea of what the commonalities are.
Why don't you tell us more about what you *felt*? And I don't mean when you were reading books.
ht
I was reading a book or I was using a technique or even I was holding my breathe while I had my finger up my arse.
In case you missed it or if I didn't make it clear I experienced an understanding of the meaning of the old book, an awareness of the mind behind Lewis and other writings and Jesus knocking on the door not to mention experiencing eventually the holiness of God and my separation from him........but then I don't want to end up trading experiences in a mine is bigger and better than yours which you keep unavoidably straying into.
Christianity records many experiences while people are reading although I was not reading anything when I asked Jesus to ''take it all''.
The point is though at the start of my journey the bible is an incomprehensible meaningless quaint old book as loved by nutters and at my conversion moment a profound work inspired and illuminated by a very real mind and God.
I would also like to point out that the whole thing was technique free. I'm still not big on technique myself but don't deny they have results. I also want to make it clear that I do not knock yours.
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There are many different ways these experiences can be brought about.
http://www.astralinfo.org/astral-projection-methods/
In the past I've found a variation of the Christos method effective as well as following particular threads of visualisation. Often these experiences relate to religious concepts or, at least, are described in religious terms.
But the questions is, how do these experiences actually validate any religious beliefs or viewpoints?
They are experiences inside your head, and as such can be meaningful as you are getting a different view of the "world inside your head". But, also, isn't the real world just inside our heads too? How can one distinguish what is really really out there with what you actually experience? In a way what these experiences show you is to be wary about deciding what is really "out there" and what is just a reflection/projection of yourself.
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I was reading a book or I was using a technique or even I was holding my breathe while I had my finger up my arse.
In case you missed it or if I didn't make it clear I experienced an understanding of the meaning of the old book, an awareness of the mind behind Lewis and other writings and Jesus knocking on the door not to mention experiencing eventually the holiness of God and my separation from him........but then I don't want to end up trading experiences in a mine is bigger and better than yours which you keep unavoidably straying into.
Christianity records many experiences while people are reading although I was not reading anything when I asked Jesus to ''take it all''.
The point is though at the start of my journey the bible is an incomprehensible meaningless quaint old book as loved by nutters and at my conversion moment a profound work inspired and illuminated by a very real mind and God.
I would also like to point out that the whole thing was technique free. I'm still not big on technique myself but don't deny they have results. I also want to make it clear that I do not knock yours.
Fair enough. I was hoping you'd be willing to be a bit more open about it, as others have been, but if you don't want to, then that's your choice.
It sounds like a gradual enlightenment, based on your evolving internal symbology. As you acquired the symbols and terminology, the experiential progress moved forward. I've come across a few of these, but they are by no means common.
How did it feel when you had your "awareness of the mind behind Lewis and other writings"? And "Jesus knocking on the door" and "the holiness of God and my separation from him"? Could you give some more detail about each of these?
As can be seen from other posts, technique is not necessarily required; it can happen spontaneously.
Thanks
ht
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Fair enough. I was hoping you'd be willing to be a bit more open about it, as others have been, but if you don't want to, then that's your choice.
It sounds like a gradual enlightenment, based on your evolving internal symbology. As you acquired the symbols and terminology, the experiential progress moved forward. I've come across a few of these, but they are by no means common.
How did it feel when you had your "awareness of the mind behind Lewis and other writings"? And "Jesus knocking on the door" and "the holiness of God and my separation from him"? Could you give some more detail about each of these?
As can be seen from other posts, technique is not necessarily required; it can happen spontaneously.
Thanks
ht
Alright for you Horsethorn: on discovery of the mind or God behind the religious writings excitement and exhilaration. On reading Augustine about wanting to be a Christian but later a bit negatively disturbed but vaguely.
On finally having to either open the door to Christ and surrender all life, heart and soul to him or Keep the door shut In turmoil. To have the image of life without Christ being like a pudding without taste.....the very life emptied out of me. After asking Jesus to take it all. The dissociation lifted.
And that is probably all I'd like to say since everyone should have there own experience of God
Mod: edited for clarity
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What, Horsethorn?
You've edited, Vlad's experience for clarity??
Vlad has absolutely not need to enlarge on his experience to anyone.
Why aren't you asking other posters to enlarge on their experiences.....eh, Horsethorn?
Older posters on this forum know exactly what's going-on here. And it's very, very sad.
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What, Horsethorn?
You've edited, Vlad's experience for clarity??
Vlad has absolutely not need to enlarge on his experience to anyone.
Why aren't you asking other posters to enlarge on their experiences.....eh, Horsethorn?
Older posters on this forum know exactly what's going-on here. And it's very, very sad.
What is going on?
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..if only Sparky was here, he would have a name for that! ;)
;D ;D
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I edited Vlad's comment because he had typed his comment inside the [ quote ] area around my post. It looked like I had written the whole comment.
ht
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Gonners wrote:
that naked fat man running rampant through the forum
I'm getting (more) worried about what goes on in your head, Gonners...
ht
Nicholas Parsons?
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What, Horsethorn?
You've edited, Vlad's experience for clarity??
Vlad has absolutely not need to enlarge on his experience to anyone.
Why aren't you asking other posters to enlarge on their experiences.....eh, Horsethorn?
Older posters on this forum know exactly what's going-on here. And it's very, very sad.
See my post above.
The reason I asked him for more detail was because there wasn't much detail. It was difficult to discern what was immediate and descriptive, from what was concluded afterwards.
Other people have posted about theirs before - or they were clear enough to understand.
You may note that Gonners has made comments about mine, which I have responded to, without getting upset.
Yes, older posters do know what's going on. You're trying to suggest some kind of persecution is going on. There is not.
ht
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I edited Vlad's comment because he had typed his comment inside the [ quote ] area around my post. It looked like I had written the whole comment.
ht
I can confirm Horsethorn has maintained the content I put on.
Nothing sinister here.
Sorry I posted in Horsethorn's post
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See my post above.
The reason I asked him for more detail was because there wasn't much detail. It was difficult to discern what was immediate and descriptive, from what was concluded afterwards.
Other people have posted about theirs before - or they were clear enough to understand.
You may note that Gonners has made comments about mine, which I have responded to, without getting upset.
Yes, older posters do know what's going on. You're trying to suggest some kind of persecution is going on. There is not.
ht
My mistake. But that's how it looked having not seen the original post.
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My mistake. But that's how it looked having not seen the original post.
Which doesn't really cover what you had decided was going on? What was that and why did you see this as something that referring to 'older posters' implied a pattern of behaviour?
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What, Horsethorn?
You've edited, Vlad's experience for clarity??
Vlad has absolutely not need to enlarge on his experience to anyone.
Why aren't you asking other posters to enlarge on their experiences.....eh, Horsethorn?
Older posters on this forum know exactly what's going-on here. And it's very, very sad.
Hi Sweetpea. Horsethorn is right when he says he has unwrapped my post from his. My content has been left untouched or changed.
I don't mind expanding for his sake and have previously expressed my concerns to him about his response to my post.
Many thanks for your concerns and support Sweetpea.
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Which doesn't really cover what you had decided was going on? What was that and why did you see this as something that referring to 'older posters' implied a pattern of behaviour?
If you look at reply #38 from Horsethorn to Vlad, it's rather curt.... or that's my perception.
Then, Horsethorn kept asking Vlad for more detail on his experience. Long-standing members of the forum know Horsethorn and Vlad have a 'history'. So, I saw an old pattern emerging..... again, my perception.
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Hi Sweetpea. Horsethorn is right when he says he has unwrapped my post from his. My content has been left untouched or changed.
I don't mind expanding for his sake and have previously expressed my concerns to him about his response to my post.
Many thanks for your concerns and support Sweetpea.
That's ok, Vlad. Posting personal experiences can not always be easy.... because of just that.... they are personal. I've posted mine before now and regretted it.
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The point is though at the start of my journey the bible is an incomprehensible meaningless quaint old book as loved by nutters and at my conversion moment a profound work inspired and illuminated by a very real mind and God.
I well remember my conversion to the supposed supreme significance of the Bible. I was eleven. As a good boy I had been previously sent regularly to Methodist sunday school and occasional visits to C of E. The Christian message didn't percolate very deep, though Jesus seemed an admirable guy (still does).
However, I got talking to a school friend who was a Jehovah's Witness, whose family lived in my village. I talked with them all regularly, and learned their explanation of the Bible as an unfolding drama from creation, interspersed with Christ's teaching, death and resurrection, and ending with the last judgment. As this gradually sank in, I did indeed see the Bible as "a profound [indeed, inerrant] work inspired and illuminated by a very real mind and God". The heavens truly opened to me - I seemed to view the whole panorama of human history, and was amazed that I might play some little part in it, and that I was loved. Three years later, I realised that this was a load of shite. The Bible is not inerrant and Jesus was mistaken if he ever believed he was God's Son (let alone God incarnate - of course not a JW belief). Subsequent experience of Christian cultural stuff (esp music) and reading a number of Christian commentators, has never brought me back to any kind of belief in the spiritual claims of Christianity, whether Trinitarian, Arian or anything else.
Still, I seemed to have a strong desire for 'spiritual illumination'. This took me 'eastwards'. One day, whilst I was meditating, and quietly repeating OM to myself, all perception of my surroundings dissolved, and I was pierced through with rays of light, indeed seemed to be just a part of those rays of light. I don't know how long the experience lasted, but when I came to myself in the room, there were tears pouring down my cheeks.
The difficulty with understanding such an experience comes when you think "WTF do I do now - go to an ashram in India?" No doubt the experience gave some direction to my life at the time, but it did increasingly seem to have little to do with my everyday life.
I maintained an interest in things mystical though, and became quite an adept in out-of-the-body experiences. These were very colourful. Visions of swimming freely underwater in pellucid rivers, and seeing mile-high cathedrals formed from coloured lights. One experience I remember vividly occurred during a long period of intense physical pain. I seemed to leave my body, but get stuck in a dreary attic! However, with an effort of will, I burst through the roof and soon was soaring freely over a glorious landscape of mountains and forests.
A very mundane experience of this kind occurred when I was in a toilet on a train. I'd been running to catch the train, got to the toilet, at which point the train started with a jolt, and my upright consciousness became separated from my body, which I saw collapsing over the wash basin. I came to on the floor, as my whole perceptions disintegrated in a kaleidoscope of colours. It was some time before I was "reintegrated".
But - all in the mind, my dear Watson, all in the mind.
This is a fascinating thread, though. You can probably see why I'm very sympathetic towards the views of Horsethorn (great to see him back again, btw) Rhiannon and wiggi - even though I no longer place any spiritual explanation on these phenomena.
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They are experiences inside your head, and as such can be meaningful as you are getting a different view of the "world inside your head". But, also, isn't the real world just inside our heads too? How can one distinguish what is really really out there with what you actually experience? In a way what these experiences show you is to be wary about deciding what is really "out there" and what is just a reflection/projection of yourself.
Quite so
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That's ok, Vlad. Posting personal experiences can not always be easy.... because of just that.... they are personal. I've posted mine before now and regretted it.
Yes We can expect the inevitable antitheist "Sarc-fest".
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This is a fascinating thread, though. You can probably see why I'm very sympathetic towards the views of Horsethorn (great to see him back again, btw) Rhiannon and wiggi - even though I no longer place any spiritual explanation on these phenomena.
Pants
Since this is the most mellowest of threads I can give the laid back response of "whatever floats your boat" rather than vilify you for your complete and utter Fucktardy............the obviousness of which is perhaps the only revelation which has been shared.
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Pants
Since this is the most mellowest of threads I can give the laid back response of "whatever floats your boat" rather than vilify you for your complete and utter Fucktardy............the obviousness of which is perhaps the only revelation which has been shared.
Lovely boy!
Pity you weren't able to see beyond the puerile non-sequiturs of C.S. Lewis. But then I've learned not to expect too much from you....
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Lovely boy!
Pity you weren't able to see beyond the puerile non-sequiturs of C.S. Lewis. But then I've learned not to expect too much from you....
Seeing beyond Lewis and finding views like yours presented in a twattish idiom you mean?
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Seeing beyond Lewis and finding views like yours presented in a twattish idiom you mean?
Your idiom is so wonderful!
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Your idiom is so wonderful!
Wonderful?, I took your contribution to be a pastiche parody of a contribution to a site solicited at the suggestion of Horsethorn where we thought that for once a thread could be free from the usual snipeage.
You are quite within your rights to put what you want, how you want.
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Very interesting #175.
Very modern, with lots of intellectual stuff and then a smattering of the spiritual at the end.
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I have mentioned this 'experience/dream' before, but will relate it again. I don't know when it actually occurred as it has been with me as long as I can remember, which is right back to the cradle.
I was an angel up in heaven (feel free to laugh), when god, who presented as a bright white light, told me it was my turn to do my bit on earth. I protested as I didn't fancy the idea, but ended up down here anyway. No doubt I am now a fallen angel. ;D However, that experience didn't stop me losing my faith.
Wow!!! That speaks volumes...
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The experiences that I have are kind of self brought on.
I feel that I can leave my body and travel to another place. I am aware that I am traveling but can't really see or feel anything. It is as though the everyday world falls away.
When I reawaken I am in a kitchen, fairly bare, just a wooden table and two chairs around it. I find different objects placed on the table every visit and sometimes a dead (before I was born) relative.
We don't talk, but we do talk (impossible to describe really). The discussion is about the object the object or objects on the table. When the relative is not there I just peruse whatever is on the table by myself.
When I return to the "real" world I find an inner peace and resolution to whatever has been on my mind although I am not sure how it has been resolved.
Very odd, but very comforting.
What objects have you found on the table?
And what was said about them to the presence there? If the presence wasn't always the same person then it would be useful to know anything about them; gender, age etc. and what objects relates to which presence.
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Oh, and while we are on here my differences of opinion with Vlad are known and long-standing but this is a lovely idea for a thread, so doff of the hat, to Vlad.
I did a thread asking about peoples experiences like this and I got sweet FA!!! >:( Rose threw me a bone, and I think someone else did, when they saw my thread nosedive.......
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I did a thread asking about peoples experiences like this and I got sweet FA!!! >:( Rose threw me a bone, and I think someone else did, when they saw my thread nosedive.......
Never mind JK - perhaps it is because posters here like Vlad better than you ;). Hmm, then again ??? Well actually, then again.
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What objects have you found on the table?
And what was said about them to the presence there? If the presence wasn't always the same person then it would be useful to know anything about them; gender, age etc. and what objects relates to which presence.
Random items.
A digital clock.
Spanners.
photographs,
I don't think it matters it is just an excuse to examine things i.e. whatever might be on my mind becomes an object. That way you can pick it up examine it etc.
The person has always been the same person, except for one occasion in which there were two of them.
We talk but we don't talk. Impossible to describe really.
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Dear Sweetpea,
Older posters on this forum know exactly what's going-on here. And it's very, very sad.
Not to worry, and you are not going mad, there is a tincture of truth in what you say, I also see what you are talking about ;)
Sometimes I like to go back and visit the old me, see how I have grown, am I any different, the old BBC website allows me to do this,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/NF2213235
Like you I wondered, how long has this been going on, I traced myself back to 2009, but I remember when I joined I was but a newbie, a little voice crying in the wilderness, hardly a reply to my wind swept and wonderful postings, but I did notice the old hands, more sedate on the old BBC, because moderation was very strict on there, but it was the same old posters having a dig at each other, it has been going on for a very long time, old habits die hard.
Sometimes I wonder, do they actually see it :-\ :-\
I will say this, if Horsethorn and Vlad ever met, in the flesh, so to speak, I would have to avert my eyes, I have admitted on this forum that I am slightly homophobic, Horsethorn giving Vlad deep tongue, and they would, I would need therapy.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sweetpea,
Not to worry, and you are not going mad, there is a tincture of truth in what you say, I also see what you are talking about ;)
Sometimes I like to go back and visit the old me, see how I have grown, am I any different, the old BBC website allows me to do this,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/NF2213235
Like you I wondered, how long has this been going on, I traced myself back to 2009, but I remember when I joined I was but a newbie, a little voice crying in the wilderness, hardly a reply to my wind swept and wonderful postings, but I did notice the old hands, more sedate on the old BBC, because moderation was very strict on there, but it was the same old posters having a dig at each other, it has been going on for a very long time, old habits die hard.
Sometimes I wonder, do they actually see it :-\ :-\
I will say this, if Horsethorn and Vlad ever met, in the flesh, so to speak, I would have to avert my eyes, I have admitted on this forum that I am slightly homophobic, Horsethorn giving Vlad deep tongue, and they would, I would need therapy.
Gonnagle.
What is the tincture of truth. What was ht arguing that everybody know's about?
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Dear Sane,
Don't deep think, they are old adversaries, that's all.
Gonnagle.
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I have admitted on this forum that I am slightly homophobic,
I don't think you are at all Gonners. I think like myself on a couple of issues there is a residual prejudice by the very nature of our upbringing and heritage.
To burden yourself unnecessarily with a label you do not deserve is counterproductive in my opinion.
That you have clearly thought about the issue and come to a view which clearly indicates you do not want to be homophobic and are largely acting in accordance with that view is more than enough to annul the appellation.
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I have admitted on this forum that I am slightly homophobic
I think that is an honest admission and actually very laudable.
We are a product of our past and the culture and society that shaped that past. Sometimes it is very honest to say that because of that culture I have engrained views that I'm not proud of, that are wrong. I understand those views are wrong but that is who I am.
That's how we move forward when some people accept how they might have been brought up, the culture they grew up in, weren't right - those people might not be able to change but that acceptance means they have moved themselves out of the way for those people who want to shape the future, who are able to do the right thing.
How different is the approach of gonners with the approach of Hope. Who will be seen by those in the future as supporting our moral progress, well I think it is pretty clear.
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Dear Sane,
Don't deep think, they are old adversaries, that's all.
Gonnagle.
I'm not deep thinking anything. There was no truth to Sweetpea's statement.
Edit: actually I can't say that, since I still don't know what SweetPea thought was going on?
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Yes We can expect the inevitable antitheist "Sarc-fest".
I don't believe I have ever experienced that. What was last year's line up?
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I did a thread asking about peoples experiences like this and I got sweet FA!!! >:( Rose threw me a bone, and I think someone else did, when they saw my thread nosedive.......
If it's any consolation, Vlad seems to have got sweet FA actual experiences too.
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Wonderful?, I took your contribution to be a pastiche parody of a contribution to a site solicited at the suggestion of Horsethorn where we thought that for once a thread could be free from the usual snipeage.
You are quite within your rights to put what you want, how you want.
PASTICHE?? Pastiche parody for a site of horsethorn's? What on earth are you babbling about? I can't decide whether you're just morbidly suspicious or innately vicious or both. My post was written in good faith, in accordance with the whole purport of the thread, and is as accurate a record of my own experience as I can make it - experience which in two cases (the JW one and the meditative one) I found to be absolutely profound at the time. That you choose to belittle my experience in vicious, foul-mouthed language is something which does you little credit, but also something many of us have come to expect from you. The one thing which might just restrain me from holding you in utter contempt is the fact that you really did think my post was a spoof, though I can't imagine why anyone with reasonable powers of perception would think this. Anyway, far from my having perverted your "most mellowest thread", you've truly crapped on it yourself by typing in such a vile tone of denigration to me.
There is just one thing you might do, if it is within the powers of your "Christian" conscience: just think back to the state of mind of that eleven year old boy (i.e. me) who thought that God had revealed the truths of the Bible to him....
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There is just one thing you might do, if it is within the powers of your "Christian" conscience: just think back to the state of mind of that eleven year old boy (i.e. me) who thought that God had revealed the truths of the Bible to him....
Shouldn't be much of a stretch.
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PASTICHE?? Pastiche parody for a site of horsethorn's? What on earth are you babbling about? I can't decide whether you're just morbidly suspicious or innately vicious or both. My post was written in good faith, in accordance with the whole purport of the thread, and is as accurate a record of my own experience as I can make it - experience which in two cases (the JW one and the meditative one) I found to be absolutely profound at the time. That you choose to belittle my experience in vicious, foul-mouthed language is something which does you little credit, but also something many of us have come to expect from you. The one thing which might just restrain me from holding you in utter contempt is the fact that you really did think my post was a spoof, though I can't imagine why anyone with reasonable powers of perception would think this. Anyway, far from my having perverted your "most mellowest thread", you've truly crapped on it yourself by typing in such a vile tone of denigration to me.
There is just one thing you might do, if it is within the powers of your "Christian" conscience: just think back to the state of mind of that eleven year old boy (i.e. me) who thought that God had revealed the truths of the Bible to him....
If you didn't design your response to counter points made by previous posters in order to establish asuperiority then you have my apologies.
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Random items.
A digital clock.
Spanners.
photographs,
I don't think it matters it is just an excuse to examine things i.e. whatever might be on my mind becomes an object. That way you can pick it up examine it etc.
The person has always been the same person, except for one occasion in which there were two of them.
We talk but we don't talk. Impossible to describe really.
I'm not too sure whether to pursue this but I would like more details. Though the items may seem to be mundane they are there for a reason. You didn't say if the person was male or female and their age - and you could add your attitude and demeanour to them. Also, what was said about the items - I gather your 'we talked but didn't' means that what was exchanged was more like an emotional air or atmosphere of meaning....?
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Dear Me, ( yes I often talk to myself )
So! two types of experience, Horsethorns, he was meditating, enki, it just some how happened, Horsethorn put himself in a state to receive an experience, enki did not, but a question only enki can answer, do you think you were in some kind of meditative state when you sat down in that spot.
BTW enki, I liked your telling of your experience, it reminded me of "To Kill a Mockingbird" :o
Gonnagle.
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Thinking about it, I should perhaps have suggested that Vlad put this in FSA...
I am fascinated by people's mystic/internal experiences, and my questions to Vlad were not intended in any way to be sarcastic or hostile; I was just hoping to hear more detail. I understand that people may be cautious about sharing, and I thought that by starting with mine, it would engender a similar open attitude.
I did realise that there would be a few who would pooh-pooh the descriptions, and that's fine - but I'd like to thank all those who did share (including Vlad :) ).
ht
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I never had any mystical experience; maybe that's why I am an atheist.
But it's not really true to say I never had strange experience - it happens every nght during dreaming - but because we easily categorise it as 'just a dream' it doesn't mean it doesn't count as 'experience'. A dream is a form of conscious experience that happens during sleep. Our normal waking experience is inspired moment to moment by novel sensory data out of which the brain creates a narrative of what is happening right now. During sleep we are robbed of that sensory input but the brain is still trying to create narratives, and so with nothing novel to go on, it looks to memories and random hopes and fears to create a story out of. Maybe this relates to why people who have mystical waking experience sometimes characterise it as being somewhat dreamlike in quality- perhaps it is in essence an irregular intrusion of dreamstate into wakefulness.
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I never had any mystical experience; maybe that's why I am an atheist.
Not sure that I ever have either - at least, nothing leaps immediately to mind - which is why I haven't contributed to this thread before. What counts as mystical?
Whatever experiences you may have had, to be an atheist is simply to find the claims about/arguments for gods put by others to be wholly unconvincing, surely.
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It's interesting. The experiences that I've had that have come when I've sought them I think arose solely from within my own mind. But whatever it is that makes me a pantheist - that I don't look for, it's what I've always lived with regardless of my religious beliefs at the time. In fact one of the hardest things as a church-going Christian was squashing that side of me down.
Is it mystical? Animism and pantheism feel to me to be the most natural things in the world. Mysterious is probably a better way of putting it than mystical - so much I don't know and so much I never will. And so much to try and make sense of anyway.
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Not sure that I ever have either - at least, nothing leaps immediately to mind - which is why I haven't contributed to this thread before. What counts as mystical?
Whatever experiences you may have had, to be an atheist is simply to find the claims about/arguments for gods put by others to be wholly unconvincing, surely.
Well, yes, of course that's right, although maybe it's easier to be clear headed and think logically for people like us who aren't prone to esoteric or mystical or numinous experiences in the first place; not that those phenomenonological aspects alone account for the persistence of theism into modern times. A complex beastie, theism, I think.
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Not sure that I ever have either - at least, nothing leaps immediately to mind - which is why I haven't contributed to this thread before. What counts as mystical?
Mysticism is one of those words for which there are probably many views about. One view is that it is not about seeking out experiences but stilling the mind or entering a still inner space. What arises tends to be indescribable and attempts to communicate it to others only give a sense of it, like formless, expansiveness, one-ness, overwhelming bliss, timelessness within which the individual consciousness is lost and found at the same time, a sense of enlivening and empowering. Because of its extreme nature it often gets called Heaven or God or Nirvana or Tao, Paradise, the Truth, Reality, Being, etc. Attempts to formalise it either mentally or physically tend to take one further from it. It is a mystery to be lived rather than a problem to be solved. Some example quotes:
Huang Po [9th C Ch. Zen Buddhist Master] Those who seek the truth by means of intellect and learning only get further and further from it. Not until your thoughts cease, not until you abandon seeking for something, not until your mind is as motionless as stone will you be on the right road to the Gate.
Bayazid al Bishtami [9th C Persian Sufi mystic] The contraction of hearts consists in the expansion of Self and the expansion of hearts in the contraction of Self.
Mechthild of Magdeberg [13th C German contemplative revelations] Whosoever should hold himself firmly in the pull which comes from God and follows after the light as he sees it, would come to such bliss and heavenly knowledge that no heart could contain it. Then he would be as an angel, ever lovingly united in God.
Hermes Tristmegistus [ 2nd C; Wisdom of Egypt Alchemist] The Good (or Pure Being) must be that which is devoid of all movement and all becoming, and has a motionless activity (effortless effort) that is centred within it; it lacks nothing nor is it assailed by perturbations, it is wholly filled with abundance of all that is desired. Anything that satisfied a need is called good; but the Good is that which is the source of all and satisfies all at all times.
Chuang-Tse [3rd C Taoist Authority] A motionless centre, wherefrom is seen nothing but infinity, which is neither this nor that, neither yes nor no.
Meister Eckhart [13th C German Dominican Theologian] The eye with which I see God, God sees me; my eye and God's eye is one eye, one seeing, one realising and one love.
Sri Sankaracharya [9th C Hindu Guru] How can there be knowledge or ignorance in Me who am eternal and always of the nature of Pure Conscious Being.
Sri Ramana Maharshi [d 1950 Hindu sage] The One Being the only Reality alone exists eternally. When even the ancient teacher Dakskinamurti revealed It through speechless eloquence, who else could have conveyed it by speech.
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I never had any mystical experience; maybe that's why I am an atheist.
But it's not really true to say I never had strange experience - it happens every nght during dreaming - but because we easily categorise it as 'just a dream' it doesn't mean it doesn't count as 'experience'. A dream is a form of conscious experience that happens during sleep. Our normal waking experience is inspired moment to moment by novel sensory data out of which the brain creates a narrative of what is happening right now. During sleep we are robbed of that sensory input but the brain is still trying to create narratives, and so with nothing novel to go on, it looks to memories and random hopes and fears to create a story out of. Maybe this relates to why people who have mystical waking experience sometimes characterise it as being somewhat dreamlike in quality- perhaps it is in essence an irregular intrusion of dreamstate into wakefulness.
Torridon
I think this is a very valid perception. However, I think the description "lucid dream", which perhaps originated in the literature of the occult/mysticism, is a distinction which can be drawn in the varied dream experiences we have. Certainly, some of the experiences which I alluded to in my earlier contribution to this thread, and which I would have thought of at the time as "out of the body experiences" had much more in common with 'lucid dreams' than every-night dreaming experience. The difference between OOBS and LDs seemed to be that the first were initiated in a waking state, whereas the latter occurred when I had definitely gone to sleep. But there did seem to be some element of control in both, as if I could order the succession of events to some extent. The other common feature of these two was the extraordinary clarity of colour and light in both.
However, like you I've come to regard all these as mere examples of unusual brain activity, and not indicative of anything spiritual (and that goes for one or two experiences of a 'universalist' kind which I had long ago, and which I definitely did interpret as having real spiritual import)
There remains the one rather different experience which occurred when in a train toilet, when a sudden jolt appeared to dissociate my consciousness from my body. All very matter of fact, and not in the least preceded by mental intention of any kind....
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Well, yes, of course that's right, although maybe it's easier to be clear headed and think logically for people like us who aren't prone to esoteric or mystical or numinous experiences in the first place; not that those phenomenonological aspects alone account for the persistence of theism into modern times. A complex beastie, theism, I think.
When you've been a long-term seeker after the 'miraculous', like me, it's sure a lot harder to let go of such things. However, life is a stern teacher, and if one hasn't altogether abandoned a capacity to reason, one can certainly strip away a lot of the 'wow' factors, and begin to appreciate what is actually on offer in art, music and science etc.
Still, I like to think I still possess some of Rhiannon's sense of the 'mysterious'.
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Dear Dickie,
one can certainly strip away a lot of the 'wow' factors,
The floor is yours, tell me all about stripping away the "wow".
Gonnagle.
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I never had any mystical experience; maybe that's why I am an atheist.
But it's not really true to say I never had strange experience - it happens every nght during dreaming - but because we easily categorise it as 'just a dream' it doesn't mean it doesn't count as 'experience'. A dream is a form of conscious experience that happens during sleep. Our normal waking experience is inspired moment to moment by novel sensory data out of which the brain creates a narrative of what is happening right now. During sleep we are robbed of that sensory input but the brain is still trying to create narratives, and so with nothing novel to go on, it looks to memories and random hopes and fears to create a story out of. Maybe this relates to why people who have mystical waking experience sometimes characterise it as being somewhat dreamlike in quality- perhaps it is in essence an irregular intrusion of dreamstate into wakefulness.
Highlighted part : I never really considered it before but the type of consciousness we have in our dream state, especially when we are asleep, is different, or relies on less of our wakeful state consciousness.
And memories as accessed, and as referred to, in your post would include inputs received whilst we were babies and before consciousness was at any adequate level.
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I never had any mystical experience; maybe that's why I am an atheist.
What does having mystical experiences have to do with having a faith, torri? Can't say that I've ever had any mystical experiences, yet I'm certainly not an atheist.
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What does having mystical experiences have to do with having a faith, torri? Can't say that I've ever had any mystical experiences, yet I'm certainly not an atheist.
True, but you are not a logical person either.
Perhaps your inability to reason correctly is why you are a theist?
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True, but you are not a logical person either.
Perhaps your inability to reason correctly is why you are a theist?
Keep going Be Rational. You are my real life every supposed straw man I am supposed to have made up. The person everybody around here denies exists.
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What does having mystical experiences have to do with having a faith, torri? Can't say that I've ever had any mystical experiences, yet I'm certainly not an atheist.
Really ? I recall you posting up a while back that you felt an 'evil presence' or somesuch, in Durbar Square Kathmandu and I remember thinking at the time how I'd been there so many times but I'd never had felt any such experience or presence.
Well, whatever, clearly not everyone has mystical experience, but historically there have been sufficient numbers of such people to convince others that there really is something spooky going on, there really are some unseen forces at work, forces of good and evil, say. A peasant girl has a vision of the Virgin Mary in medieval France, noone comes to her aid with medication suspecting psychosis or epileptic seizure, no, people take her experience at face value because her story resonates with what has already become part of the cultural zeitgest. Also, people having strange or irregular experiences have tended to make a noise about it, exactly because it is er, strange and irregular. People who do not have mystical experience on the other hand don't feel inspired to get up on a soapbox and shout about the fact that, er, nothing happened,
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Highlighted part : I never really considered it before but the type of consciousness we have in our dream state, especially when we are asleep, is different, or relies on less of our wakeful state consciousness.
Yes that is the point I was making. What happens when we are dreaming is just a continuation of what brains do for a living, most of the time, they are exquisitely honed for the construction of narratives and whilst we are conscious that narrative stream informs us about what is happening within us and around us, But just as we can't stop seeing faces where there are none, in rocks or clouds, say, so also the brain cannot stop creating narrative streams and whilst we are asleep there is no incoming original sensory data to construct a truly useful stream from so the brain ends up creating random stories out of fragments of memories stitched together by underlying desires and fears.
So, in a sense, understanding why we dream helps us to understand our normal waking experience. In a sense we are all dreaming all the time, only during waking hours, our dreams have novel sensory data to construct narratives from and the resulting waking narrative is faithful enough to internal and external reality, that we can take it for reality, which is what we all do, intuitively, all the time.
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When you've been a long-term seeker after the 'miraculous', like me, it's sure a lot harder to let go of such things. However, life is a stern teacher, and if one hasn't altogether abandoned a capacity to reason, one can certainly strip away a lot of the 'wow' factors, and begin to appreciate what is actually on offer in art, music and science etc.
I can relate to that, Dicky. The more I realised I wanted something to be real the more inevitable it became that I'd have to admit that it wasn't.
For me the 'wows' haven't gone away. They are just for what is though, and for what I don't know, what I'm discovering, for how things make me feel. Not for what I want to be real, not for wishful thinking. And really there's no need for any more.
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Huang Po [9th C Ch. Zen Buddhist Master] Those who seek the truth by means of intellect and learning only get further and further from it. Not until your thoughts cease, not until you abandon seeking for something, not until your mind is as motionless as stone will you be on the right road to the Gate.
This reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's left brain shutdown; remove the left brain's incessant chatter and rationalising and we are left at one with the world around us in a state of bliss, no longer separate. We cannot live for long in such state though, our success is founded upon having two very separate and different brains in constant tension with each other, the outcome of which negotiation is a better all round ability to thrive.
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Mysticism is one of those words for which there are probably many views about. One view is that it is not about seeking out experiences but stilling the mind or entering a still inner space. What arises tends to be indescribable and attempts to communicate it to others only give a sense of it, like formless, expansiveness, one-ness, overwhelming bliss, timelessness within which the individual consciousness is lost and found at the same time, a sense of enlivening and empowering.
Certainly had experiences of this nature (all too few, alas!), mostly (though not exclusively) connected with prolonged meditation, which has waxed and waned over the years but used to be pretty intensive at various stages of my life.
In Buddhist meditation they're a well-known pitfall - not that there's anything inherently wrong about such experiences (who doesn't like feeling absolutely indescribably amazing?), save that some people (perfectly naturally, for the most understandable of reasons) chase after them and think that if meditation can produce such lovely blissful experiences, as it can, then that's something to run after and make the point of meditating at all, which is just another form of attachment or clinging. This is completely contrary to the spirit of meditation and all wise teachers are alert to this: by all means enjoy the experiences as they're lovely - just don't cling on to them and make them all about meditation. They're nice, but a passing show - observe, but don't get involved.
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This reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's left brain shutdown; remove the left brain's incessant chatter and rationalising and we are left at one with the world around us in a state of bliss, no longer separate. We cannot live for long in such state though, our success is founded upon having two very separate and different brains in constant tension with each other, the outcome of which negotiation is a better all round ability to thrive.
Oneness is ok, until you become lunch.
It's not a good survival technique to wander or sit about feeling at one with the universe.
It's likely you would be, as in the food chain.
It's a luxury, being able to meditate etc, brought about by our civilisation.
Strangely enough I think it is our distance from nature that allows us to do it, like looking at a beautiful frost from the knowledge that a warm home and cuppa awaits once home.
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...
In Buddhist meditation they're a well-known pitfall - not that there's anything inherently wrong about such experiences (who doesn't like feeling absolutely indescribably amazing?), save that some people (perfectly naturally, for the most understandable of reasons) chase after them and think that if meditation can produce such lovely blissful experiences, as it can, then that's something to run after and make the point of meditating at all, which is just another form of attachment or clinging. This is completely contrary to the spirit of meditation and all wise teachers are alert to this: by all means enjoy the experiences as they're lovely - just don't cling on to them and make them all about meditation. They're nice, but a passing show - observe, but don't get involved.
What's the main event then?
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Oneness is ok, until you become lunch.
It's not a good survival technique to wander or sit about feeling at one with the universe.
It's likely you would be, as in the food chain.
It's a luxury, being able to meditate etc, brought about by our civilisation.
Strangely enough I think it is our distance from nature that allows us to do it, like looking at a beautiful frost from the knowledge that a warm home and cuppa awaits once home.
Does survival or comfort actually matter? - Only until it doesn't.
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Oneness is ok, until you become lunch.
It's not a good survival technique to wander or sit about feeling at one with the universe.
It's likely you would be, as in the food chain.
Quite.
Maybe bliss has to be momentary anyway.
That's why I don't believe in heaven; a permanent state of bliss would not be blissfull at all.
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Quite.
Maybe bliss has to be momentary anyway.
That's why I don't believe in heaven; a permanent state of bliss would not be blissfull at all.
For me the downside to heaven is the harps.....and the little clouds.
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What's the main event then?
With regard to meditation? Depends on the school. Those of a Zen bent for example say that it has no purpose - you don't sit for any reason, you simply sit in order to sit.
Wigginhall is your man for this sort of thing - he might chip in if he sees this thread and feels like it.
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Who created the word Mystical?
Are we talking about actual experiences or imaginary?
:)
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Who created the word Mystical?
Are we talking about actual experiences or imaginary?
:)
That's the question though, isn't it?
Why should one persons experience be considered valid, because it fits in with our own belief system and someone else who doesn't gets thought of as deluded and false & imaginary?
People tend to believe those people who's beliefs reinforce their own.
IMO There is no difference between someone here, who has an experience, and Mohammed or any of the other people. who get acknowledged for it. People make to much fuss about certain individuals who experience one.
It happens to millions of people.
It's so easy to dismiss experiences as imaginary that don't fit our worldview.
I think everyone does it, up to a point.
We have no way of validating which experiences are real and which ones are imaginary.
It just interesting when people share features to them.
🌹
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This reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's left brain shutdown; remove the left brain's incessant chatter and rationalising and we are left at one with the world around us in a state of bliss, no longer separate. We cannot live for long in such state though, our success is founded upon having two very separate and different brains in constant tension with each other, the outcome of which negotiation is a better all round ability to thrive.
Yes. Perhaps a harmonising of the two when negotiating the world we live in is the way forward. Spending too much time in a state of mental tension and looking for release or a paradise break in the external world doesn't always do that. If one looks at it as a right brain left brain situation perhaps starting with the right brain's bliss or joy as a basis and carrying that into left brain experiences one can enjoy or put joy into the world rather than seeking to extract it from that world.
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Certainly had experiences of this nature (all too few, alas!), mostly (though not exclusively) connected with prolonged meditation, which has waxed and waned over the years but used to be pretty intensive at various stages of my life.
In Buddhist meditation they're a well-known pitfall - not that there's anything inherently wrong about such experiences (who doesn't like feeling absolutely indescribably amazing?), save that some people (perfectly naturally, for the most understandable of reasons) chase after them and think that if meditation can produce such lovely blissful experiences, as it can, then that's something to run after and make the point of meditating at all, which is just another form of attachment or clinging. This is completely contrary to the spirit of meditation and all wise teachers are alert to this: by all means enjoy the experiences as they're lovely - just don't cling on to them and make them all about meditation. They're nice, but a passing show - observe, but don't get involved.
Yes, creating an ambition tends to be counter productive and is likely to agitate the mind, or inflate the ego. Whatever arises from inner stillness shouldn't be a source of attraction or distraction no matter how wonderful.
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Yes, creating an ambition tends to be counter productive and is likely to agitate the mind, or inflate the ego. Whatever arises from inner stillness shouldn't be a source of attraction or distraction no matter how wonderful.
Inflating the ego might help some people with a low self esteem, as long as they don't take it too far.
Sometimes it's good to remember some of our good points, instead of constantly beating our self up with our faults and mistakes :(
A little bit of wonderful is needed now and again ;)
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Inflating the ego might help some people with a low self esteem, as long as they don't take it too far.
Sometimes it's good to remember some of our good points, instead of constantly beating our self up with our faults and mistakes :(
A little bit of wonderful is needed now and again ;)
That's one of the differences between following the, so called, spiritual path and the 'worldly' path. The former sees the ego/self as the source of selfishness and leads to conflict with other egos and a spiritual or religious ego is no exception. The latter sees the ego/self as something to be cultivated and which often leads to being self centred, self righteous, self absorbed and as you have hinted, low self esteem. I suppose not much else can be expected when there appears to be a drive from early life to develop a strong ego in order to compete with other already well established egos.
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That's one of the differences between following the, so called, spiritual path and the 'worldly' path. The former sees the ego/self as the source of selfishness and leads to conflict with other egos and a spiritual or religious ego is no exception. The latter sees the ego/self as something to be cultivated and which often leads to being self centred, self righteous, self absorbed and as you have hinted, low self esteem. I suppose not much else can be expected when there appears to be a drive from early life to develop a strong ego in order to compete with other already well established egos.
The trouble is, the so called spiritual path can be as egotistical as the worldly one, sometimes more so.
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The trouble is, the so called spiritual path can be as egotistical as the worldly one, sometimes more so.
Yes, that's what I meant by 'and a spiritual or religious ego is no exception'. It makes it easy for extremists to fashion a collective religious ego to persecute the infidel.
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Yes ... but if that's what they think is right, why shouldn't they?
Both personally and as a society some kind of objectives need to be laid down. The "path" and the experiences along it may lead to heaven or hell or nowhere at all, but we're still on it.
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Yes ... but if that's what they think is right, why shouldn't they?
Both personally and as a society some kind of objectives need to be laid down. The "path" and the experiences along it may lead to heaven or hell or nowhere at all, but we're still on it.
:o because they persecute the infidel ? :o
People should be able to believe what they want, until they start hurting someone with it.
Other people " the infidel" are also allowed to believe what they do, preferably in peace.
Nasty religious nutters who stab shopkeepers just because they believe something different ( just as an example) need to be dealt with very firmly.
No amount of violence and hurting others is going to prove their POV, if anything, it discredits them.
I'm ok with egos until they start harming others.
I think you need a healthy ego to cope with life's knocks.
I think there is a balance to be had.
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Yes, Rose, Great. But obviously you are not looking at it from their pov!
As you say some kind of balance could be found.
My main point was really to Ekim - contrasting the spiritual "ego" free path from the ego led worldly path - it's not really a case of one or the other.
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Yes ... but if that's what they think is right, why shouldn't they?
Both personally and as a society some kind of objectives need to be laid down. The "path" and the experiences along it may lead to heaven or hell or nowhere at all, but we're still on it.
I would suggest that from the point of view of the mystic, your question would imply that they only think it is right. They don't know, and they export their ignorance and impose it upon others. This is the nature of the spiritual ego/self, or I guess any ego/self, it seeks to impose self will. Jihad is struggle and a mystic would see it as a personal inner struggle whereas those who have failed with the inner struggle will blame it on others and seek support from the like minded for the kind of violent outer jihad we see today and so the collective religious ego is strengthened.
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Dear Dickie,
The floor is yours, tell me all about stripping away the "wow".
Gonnagle.
Gonners
Speaking of the western religious tradition which has influenced all of us to a greater or lesser extent (even Ippy :) ), I think there are a few things which could be pared away to start with:
Jesus walked on water
Jesus fed the 5000 (and 4000)
Jesus died for our sins
Jesus rose from the dead (literally)
Jesus was God incarnate
There are other ways of looking at these assertions, if one wishes to salvage something from the Christian tradition (starting with clever coves like D.F. Strauss)
I've nothing against the courageous wandering preacher who gave a bit of a new slant on Judaism (following his precepts might indeed be a way to "have life abundantly" - Schweitzer thought so, and he lived in a fairly abundant way).
However, most believers in the Christian world today, and probably most on this board can't do without the 'carrots'. No doubt quite a few want to insist on the 'sticks' as well, because they sure want to see them pesky atheists getting what's good for 'em - for ever and ever, preferably. :)
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:o because they persecute the infidel ? :o
People should be able to believe what they want, until they start hurting someone with it.
Other people " the infidel" are also allowed to believe what they do, preferably in peace.
Nasty religious nutters who stab shopkeepers just because they believe something different ( just as an example) need to be dealt with very firmly.
No amount of violence and hurting others is going to prove their POV, if anything, it discredits them.
I'm ok with egos until they start harming others.
I think you need a healthy ego to cope with life's knocks.
I think there is a balance to be had.
Just like to say I've liked most of your comments on this thread so far.
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Certainly had experiences of this nature (all too few, alas!), mostly (though not exclusively) connected with prolonged meditation, which has waxed and waned over the years but used to be pretty intensive at various stages of my life.
In Buddhist meditation they're a well-known pitfall - not that there's anything inherently wrong about such experiences (who doesn't like feeling absolutely indescribably amazing?), save that some people (perfectly naturally, for the most understandable of reasons) chase after them and think that if meditation can produce such lovely blissful experiences, as it can, then that's something to run after and make the point of meditating at all, which is just another form of attachment or clinging. This is completely contrary to the spirit of meditation and all wise teachers are alert to this: by all means enjoy the experiences as they're lovely - just don't cling on to them and make them all about meditation. They're nice, but a passing show - observe, but don't get involved.
Hi Shaker
I got the impression from what you'd said earlier that you were something of a stranger to this sort of thing. I found your reference to 'wise teachers' a bit of a surprise too, though I knew you were more sympathetic to Buddhism than Christianity.
My disillusion with Buddhism came as a result of a number of pundits insisting that Zen was somehow the culmination of Buddhist thought and practice (I've a feeling wiggi still thinks this). Zen seems to want to do away with 'intention' altogether, ending up with saying "don't seek for enlightenment, for it will elude you". Which ends up by encouraging you "when you sit, just sit" etc.
I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as 'enlightenment' anyway, though no doubt certain 'highs' (Satoris) are available in any form of human experience (Maslow's research). However, there are a few admonitions from religious traditions which talk sense, by simply advocating that people try to purify their 'intentions': don't seek for magical powers (or power in any sense), don't seek for wonders, don't go for self-development (Yoga can often be nothing more than a vehicle for this).
However, the idea of doing away with 'intention' altogether is, I think, nonsense. Koestler analysed this brilliantly in his selection of essays "The Lotus and the Robot", where he demolished much of the gobbledegook perpetrated by Zen pundits. This hasn't stopped Zen 'dojos' being set up by the score throughout Europe, where people go to extreme lengths to practise to the letter aspects of Japanese religious culture (I've been to a few), with the most effortful 'intent' and precision, in order to learn that '"there is nothing to be gained". Better to just go for a country walk, do some gardening, fly a kite, whatever....
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Zen is complicated, but one summary of it is, 'no path'. Or, if you like, letting go. However, to let go, you might need to try first of all! Then you can stop.
I think it's true that going for a long walk can achieve the same thing, i.e. an effortless state.
This has been an enjoyable thread. I like Gonners' 'just me and the spade'. I think that experience is ace, and it has happened to me a lot. But as they say in Zen, now fuck off and wash your mouth out, and stop talking this spiritual crap.
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Zen is complicated, but one summary of it is, 'no path'. Or, if you like, letting go. However, to let go, you might need to try first of all! Then you can stop.
I think it's true that going for a long walk can achieve the same thing, i.e. an effortless state.
This has been an enjoyable thread. I like Gonners' 'just me and the spade'. I think that experience is ace, and it has happened to me a lot. But as they say in Zen, now fuck off and wash your mouth out, and stop talking this spiritual crap.
Gonners' dictum is the real McCoy. I like that aspect of Zen btw - but why the fucking Dojos?
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I've never been to a fucking dojo, although some parties were rather similar. Too old now, Dicky, I have to watch the girls go by, and remember.
Being more serious, I was mates with John Crook, who became a top guy in the Western Chan Fellowship and eventually he became a 'Dharma heir'.
Well, he was a top bloke, and far beyond anyone I knew, in his knowledge of Zen and practice of it, but all the accoutrements put me off really. Well, for me, no path.
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For me the downside to heaven is the harps.....and the little clouds.
There's also no toilets!!! :o
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Dear Dickie,
Jesus walked on water
Jesus fed the 5000 (and 4000)
Jesus died for our sins
Jesus rose from the dead (literally)
Jesus was God incarnate
AH AH AH! No that is not the "wow" I was talking about, and I am almost sure that is not what you were inferring to in your original post.
When you've been a long-term seeker after the 'miraculous', like me, it's sure a lot harder to let go of such things. However, life is a stern teacher, and if one hasn't altogether abandoned a capacity to reason, one can certainly strip away a lot of the 'wow' factors, and begin to appreciate what is actually on offer in art, music and science etc.
Jesus walked on water, did he, very tame.
Jesus fed the 5000, really, so what.
Jesus died for our Sins, now your talking, but thousands of books have been written on the subject, only a few touch the heart of the subject.
Jesus rose from the dead ( literally ) did he, well I am in the Alan Alien camp on this, with God all things are possible, but where's the "wow".
Jesus was God incarnate, was he, not for me, Son of God.
If you want to find the "wow" in the Gospels look to the Passion and the Crucifixion.
But the "wow" I took from your post was the wonder of nature, God doing what he does best, an acorn growing into a mighty Oak, a baby being born, the sun rising, the things we take for granted but are God, God doing what God does best, the mundane and the miraculous.
Gonnagle.
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Hi Shaker
I got the impression from what you'd said earlier that you were something of a stranger to this sort of thing. I found your reference to 'wise teachers' a bit of a surprise too, though I knew you were more sympathetic to Buddhism than Christianity.
Only insofar as the sort of experiences related by contributors in the earlier part of the thread don't match my own experience - there's nothing comparable where I can say "Yes, I've experienced that too, I know just what you mean."
As for being more sympathetic to Buddhism, yes, up to a point, but only up to a point. I'm not a Buddhist and don't call myself one. I know a fair bit about it and there's much about it to applaud and emulate, but that's as far as it goes. There's too much baggage that I can't swallow.
My disillusion with Buddhism came as a result of a number of pundits insisting that Zen was somehow the culmination of Buddhist thought and practice (I've a feeling wiggi still thinks this). Zen seems to want to do away with 'intention' altogether, ending up with saying "don't seek for enlightenment, for it will elude you". Which ends up by encouraging you "when you sit, just sit" etc.
Yes, some of the Zen stuff as wiggy will attest is pretty hardcore, and it's difficult for that not to start to give rise to feelings of being a bit superior.
I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as 'enlightenment' anyway
I don't know. But I do wonder.
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Dear Dickie,
AH AH AH! No that is not the "wow" I was talking about, and I am almost sure that is not what you were inferring to in your original post.
Hello Gonners
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that is the 'wow' I was talking about, and what I was implying in my original post - that is to say, assertions of the 'supernatural' from whichever religious tradition, whether Mohammed flying unaided to Jerusalem, Sadhus materialising palaces in the Himalayas or Sai Baba conjuring up a multitude of golden lingams from his stomach - or Jesus rising from the dead.
Jesus walked on water, did he, very tame.
Jesus fed the 5000, really, so what.
I'm in sympathy with the gist of your post, which is that the important parts of the gospels are not to be found in the 'miracles', and your implication that the real 'miracles' are to be found in ordinary life itself ("Life itself is the miracle of miracles" G.B.S.) However, there are of course a great many Christians in the world who think that Jesus was able to suspend the known laws of physics at will, and, indeed, if I had seen Jesus imitating a helicopter to rise without visible means of support at his Ascension, then I feel I might just have expressed a tentative "wow". Such claims are in fact extraordinary, and anyone making them needs to provide extraordinary evidence for them. However, we know that there are many of the Evangelical camp who insist that the onus is on non-believers to prove them wrong (and most of us know the phrase for that particular fallacy :) )
Jesus died for our Sins, now your talking, but thousands of books have been written on the subject, only a few touch the heart of the subject.
There are a myriad of books and a myriad of interpretations - the heart of the subject, I would suggest, is the ability of such a belief to lift a person's sense of guilt to allow them to feel 'accepted'.
Jesus rose from the dead ( literally ) did he, well I am in the Alan Alien camp on this, with God all things are possible, but where's the "wow".
Jesus was God incarnate, was he, not for me, Son of God.
And you sound to me as though you want to have your cake and eat it too :) So it seems that you'd quite like to believe this 'wow', but otherwise adopt the rather reductionist view of the world which you've outlined below.
As for 'God Incarnate' or 'Son of God' (or both), both of these depend on how you understand the phrases in the first place (or indeed what you mean by 'God'). I've certainly not much idea what is meant by 'Son of God', though I know it's been used in various ways from the ancient Hebrews onwards. Just for the record - are you some kind of Unitarian?
If you want to find the "wow" in the Gospels look to the Passion and the Crucifixion.
Can't disagree with that - I've always considered Jesus admirably courageous, as I said.
But the "wow" I took from your post was the wonder of nature, God doing what he does best, an acorn growing into a mighty Oak, a baby being born, the sun rising, the things we take for granted but are God, God doing what God does best, the mundane and the miraculous.
Agree with all of that, except that you like to pepper the phrases with 'God'. Old Dickie Dawkins wrote a book about all that (I've got it -still unread - on my shelves) "An Appetite for Wonder".