Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: floo on April 16, 2016, 12:17:19 PM
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There has been some discussion about children and religion on another thread, which is off topic, so I thought I would start a new one.
I am of the opinion that whilst parents can share their beliefs with their children, they should allow them to make up their own minds on the topic, as there is no evidence to support any religious belief system.
As I have said before, my husband and I felt very strongly about letting our children decide for themselves about religion, we did not force our lack of belief on them. We knew how damaging it was to us that our childhoods had been spoilt by the 'you must be 'saved', or burn in hell', abusive dogma. >:(
Our daughters are moderate, non Biblical literalist Christians, and jolly decent people, of whom we are very proud. :) The daughters, who have children, are bringing them up the same way and letting them decide for themselves.
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There has been some discussion about children and religion on another thread, which is off topic, so I thought I would start a new one.
I am of the opinion that whilst parents can share their beliefs with their children, they should allow them to make up their own minds on the topic, as there is no evidence to support any religious belief system.
As I have said before, my husband and I felt very strongly about letting our children decide for themselves about religion, we did not force our lack of belief on them. We knew how damaging it was to us that our childhoods had been spoilt by the 'you must be 'saved', or burn in hell', abusive dogma. >:(
Our daughters are moderate, non Biblical literalist Christians, and jolly decent people, of whom we are very proud. :) The daughters, who have children, are bringing them up the same way and letting them decide for themselves.
I am not at all sure that the primary target of your remarks, Christianity, as a whole, deserves the description "child abuse" to be applied to the teaching of that religion, BUT, as one instance, I do believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs regarding medical intervention most assuredly do deserve said description.
A child will grow to adulthoiod and wisdom and, should it wish to, can dump the beliefs of its parents, as you, Floo, did.
A child denied a blood transfusion does not have that ability.
Extreme as I know it is I believe that if a JW family refuse medical treatment and the child dies, criminal charges should be brought.
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We have discussed this so often, Owlswing and floo. I'm glad you came up with something new Owlswing and note we have no JWs on this forum - I have absolutely nothing against them in this free society in which we live, except what you say about children and blood transfusions and I believe the law takes care of that when it comes up in A&E.
Other than that, I've nothing to say that I haven't said before on previous threads.
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I'm glad you came up with something new Owlswing and note we have no JWs on this forum - I have absolutely nothing against them in this free society in which we live, except what you say about children and blood transfusions and I believe the law takes care of that when it comes up in A&E.
Unfortunately this may not be the case. If the A & E staff have such a dilemma (hippocratic oath v religious belief) it, i f I remember correctly - and I will be happy if someone corrects me - usually has to be the courts that decides the outcome and - again I will be happy if someone corrects me - I am not sure that the courts always decide in favour of the medical people's position.
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Unfortunately this may not be the case. If the A & E staff have such a dilemma (hippocratic oath v religious belief) it, i f I remember correctly - and I will be happy if someone corrects me - usually has to be the courts that decides the outcome and - again I will be happy if someone corrects me - I am not sure that the courts always decide in favour of the medical people's position.
Further to the above:
http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/HealthProfessionals/Clinical-law-updates/Adults-who-refuse-blood-transfusion-in-emergency-circumstances.aspx
http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/HealthProfessionals/Clinical-law-updates/Young-person-refusing-blood-transfusion.aspx
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I read both with interest Owlswing, thank you. So it seems a ''young person'' can be forced to have a blood transfusion against their express wishes in order to save their life. I didn't know that and assumed that anyone over 16 could decide for themselves what medical treatment they would accept and not accept.
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I read both with interest Owlswing, thank you. So it seems a ''young person'' can be forced to have a blood transfusion against their express wishes in order to save their life. I didn't know that and assumed that anyone over 16 could decide for themselves what medical treatment they would accept and not accept.
I couldn't find the article but I seem to remember a couple of cases where teenage JW's wishes have been overruled on the grounds of undue or unacceptable pressure from parents or church leaders being applied or where their 'maturity' has been called into question.
I also seem to remember that in America there is a legal precedent that allows a court to give, I think the expression is, 'discretionary adulthood' to persons under the American legal age of maturity.
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I think the JW cult is evil! >:(
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I am of the opinion that whilst parents can share their beliefs with their children, they should allow them to make up their own minds on the topic, as there is no evidence to support any religious belief system.
This is not only the opinion of pretty well all Christian parents (if not parents of other religions - but there are other reasons for this), it also mirrors the instructions that Christ gave in the first place. The famous saying that God has no grand-children sums this up very well.
Previously, I mentioned that this doesn't seem to apply to other religions since it seems that many of them believe that if you are born in a certain part of the world or into a 'believing' family you are automatically a Muslim/Sikh/Hindu/etc. Ironically, within the Christian context, whilst this was very likely true of some Christian denominations in the past (and still today in respect to one particular denomination), more recently it has been the other wayy round - the child has assumed their religious status from their parents - hence the huge number of people who tick 'Christian' on a census or survey form - because they think that growing up in a Christian family (or even nation) makes them a Christian.
As I have said before, my husband and I felt very strongly about letting our children decide for themselves about religion, we did not force our lack of belief on them. We knew how damaging it was to us that our childhoods had been spoilt by the 'you must be 'saved', or burn in hell', abusive dogma. >:(
I suppose that I was like your children, brought up in a Christian family where it was made exceedingly clear (by a clergyman of all people! ;)) that once we reached a point in our lives when we could think for ourselves (and I get the feeling that Mum and Dad regarded that as about 7 years old) we couldn't hang on their spiritual coat-tails, but had to make up our own minds. In fact, with the possible exception of one family I know here in S. Wales, I think that you are the only person I know who wasn't brought up in that understanding, Floo.
Obviously, most Christian parents will bring theiur children up to at least understand the idea of salvation and their need of it, and I don't see anything wrong with it - it is certainly not abusive in any way at all. We all know, once we are even fairly young, that we do things wrong and that we need to sek forgiveness and 'salvation' even if that is only reconciliation with the person we have wronged.
Our daughters are moderate, non Biblical literalist Christians, and jolly decent people, of whom we are very proud. :) The daughters, who have children, are bringing them up the same way and letting them decide for themselves.
What, may I ask, is a 'non Biblical literalist Christian', Floo? Are you saying that they are evangelicals, are they 'high', as opposed to 'low' from a theological perspective; or are you saying that they don't believe anything that the Bible says?
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I think the JW cult is evil! >:(
In what specific ways? Or is your condemnation all-embracing of the JW belief.
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I think the JW cult is evil! >:(
Evil? or just wrong? If the former, in what way?
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Evil? or just wrong? If the former, in what way?
Their willingness to allow their childtren to die un-necessarily?
Seems a good definition of evil to me. The god that they worship must be just as evil to allow them to do so.
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The blood issue is a very big one for us and when a case gets into the papers, or is portrayed in drama on TV, it hits home. However most of us go through life without ever having a blood transfusion and Jehovah's Witnesses are the same. I doubt if they dwell on it that much, no doubt they pray that they or their loved ones never need one and leave it up to God.
It all seems very strange to us but all religions are odd to the outsider. JWs would undoubtedly say there is more to them that refusing blood products. That's certainly true - their attitude towards higher education is one but maybe that's for another thread.
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My dad's brother and his wife are JWs. They are somewhat eccentric to say the least and the JWs give them a sense of community and acceptance outside of our family. I'm not knocking it.
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Religion can cause otherwise intelligent people to act like morons.
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So can being a football supporter.
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So can being a football supporter.
I don't think so. Intelligent supporters of any sport conduct themselves intelligently. Those supporters that don't are morons anyway! :)
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No, Lennie, football supporters will often act out of character in the heat of the moment or to gain an edge for their team. Away from football they will be perfectly reasonable.
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Religion can cause otherwise intelligent people to act like morons.
How does something that is a creation of humans cause this? Surely it's just that intelligent people often act like morons.
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No, Lennie, football supporters will often act out of character in the heat of the moment or to gain an edge for their team. Away from football they will be perfectly reasonable.
I take your word on that because I know nothing about football supporters. I find it rather sad.
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How does something that is a creation of humans cause this? Surely it's just that intelligent people often act like morons.
Yes, I suppose so. It is unfortunate that religion can cause it.
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There are alternatives to blood nowadays, I think.
Also if it is taken out of the hands of the Jehovah Witness parents, they are not held to blame in their community, so in some ways could be a bit of a relief.
Children naturally join in the parents community, so you can't really bring them up differently or seperately.
Some disapprove of children joining a religious community but the alternative is worse.
Excluding a child from parts of your life in an attempt not to teach them religion, strikes me as cruel.
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Religion can cause otherwise intelligent people to act like morons.
It can also cause otherwise intelligent - as well as those less endowed with said intelligence - to act as incredibly idiotic and self-ignoring people in attempts to save the lives of fellow human beings.
Len, its time you stopped stereotyping people of faith, because your claim can be equally applied to those with no religious belief. The important word in your post is 'can'; this doesn't mean 'does'.
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[quote author=Rose link=topic=11903.msg606930#msg606930 date=146096095
Children naturally join in the parents community, so you can't really bring them up differently or seperately.
Some disapprove of children joining a religious community but the alternative is worse.
Excluding a child from parts of your life in an attempt not to teach them religion, strikes me as cruel.
[/quote]
I'd never thought of it in that way before Rose, probably because it isn't something that has affected me personally. However you are right, it would be cruel to exclude children and have a 'secret' bit of life where they aren't welcome. I daresay the best solution to that is to let them join in with age-appropriate activities if they want to (most churches have those), and not force them to do so if they aren't interested.
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It can also cause otherwise intelligent - as well as those less endowed with said intelligence - to act as incredibly idiotic and self-ignoring people in attempts to save the lives of fellow human beings.
Len, its time you stopped stereotyping people of faith, because your claim can be equally applied to those with no religious belief. The important word in your post is 'can'; this doesn't mean 'does'.
True ... but I just want to point out that religious beliefs can prompt some people to treat others cruelly, which they otherwise wouldn't have done. I speak from experience having been on the receiving end.
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It can also cause otherwise intelligent - as well as those less endowed with said intelligence - to act as incredibly idiotic and self-ignoring people in attempts to save the lives of fellow human beings.
Len, its time you stopped stereotyping people of faith, because your claim can be equally applied to those with no religious belief. The important word in your post is 'can'; this doesn't mean 'does'.
I would agree.
I think if Len replaced religion with strong ideology then I would probably agree with him.
Once the ability to use reasoned arguments is replaced with dogma and arguments from authority is when you have the issue.
It just happens that you are a good example of the religious version re your views about homosexuals.
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True ... but I just want to point out that religious beliefs can prompt some people to treat others cruelly, which they otherwise wouldn't have done. I speak from experience having been on the receiving end.
Yeh but from my POV cruel mocking has come from non believers...........and justified with the same words as you use here.
If any atheist does so out of revenge then what does that say about professing atheism?
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The same thing that it does when the religious do it - people can act like dickheads.
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Yeh but from my POV cruel mocking has come from non believers...........and justified with the same words as you use here.
If any atheist does so out of revenge then what does that say about professing atheism?
Nothing, but it reflects badly on the atheist concerned.
Atheism, unlike religion, doesn't teach a way of life ... it is just a disbelief in the gods that do.
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As I have said before, my husband and I felt very strongly about letting our children decide for themselves about religion, we did not force our lack of belief on them. We knew how damaging it was to us that our childhoods had been spoilt by the 'you must be 'saved', or burn in hell', abusive dogma. >:(
In addition to what I've said about this paragraph previously, it would be interesting to know how you allowed your children todecide for themselves - did you talk to them about Christianity or religion as a whole? Or did you just assume that they'd hear stuff at school or from friends?
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Atheism, unlike religion, doesn't teach a way of life ... it is just a disbelief in the gods that do.
Yet, non-belief in a God is, in its own way, a way of life. An atheist's understanding of the world is based on a totally different set of ideas to someone of faith.
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Yet, non-belief in a God is, in its own way, a way of life. An atheist's understanding of the world is based on a totally different set of ideas to someone of faith.
No.
The only thing you are safe in assuming about someone who says that they are an atheist is that they do not have a belief in any God. For specific views on any particular subject you would have to ask the individual atheist.
e.g. my views on homosexuality seem to be close to those of Brownie and a million miles away from those of you and Spud, yet all three of you call yourselves Christians and I call myself an agnostic atheist.
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No.
The only thing you are safe in assuming about someone who says that they are an atheist is that they do not have a belief in any God. For specific views on any particular subject you would have to ask the individual atheist.
But by not having a belief in a God, an atheist's understanding of the universe is necessarily very different to that of someone of faith. I appreciate that atheists don't want to acknowledge that they have an 'atheist' way of life, but its an unavoidable logic progession.
By the way, what is an agnostic atheist? Either you don't have a belief in a God and are an atheist; or you are unsure whether there is one or not, and hence an agnostic.
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By the way, what is an agnostic atheist? Either you don't have a belief in a God and are an atheist; or you are unsure whether there is one or not, and hence an agnostic.
Atheism and agnosticism are discrete terms relating to discrete concepts - namely belief and knowledge (the lack of both, in this specific instance).
This relies on T. H. Huxley's original definition of agnosticism as a method, rather than the modern bastardisation of the term to mean no more than uncertainty.
https://goo.gl/Cxedso
http://goo.gl/HsDLF1
http://goo.gl/kQZQG9
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Yet, non-belief in a God is, in its own way, a way of life. An atheist's understanding of the world is based on a totally different set of ideas to someone of faith.
How? My approach to life is to help people if I can and do as little harm as possible to the environment. How does that differ from yours?
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How? My approach to life is to help people if I can and do as little harm as possible to the environment. How does that differ from yours?
I suppose the term atheist can convey an innocuous sort of chap just spreading a little happiness as he goes by. However experience of this forum gives a different picture.
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Atheism and agnosticism are discrete terms relating to discrete concepts - namely belief and knowledge (the lack of both, in this specific instance).
This relies on T. H. Huxley's original definition of agnosticism as a method, rather than the modern bastardisation of the term to mean no more than uncertainty.
https://goo.gl/Cxedso
http://goo.gl/HsDLF1
http://goo.gl/kQZQG9
What would you call someone who doesn't know but knows it isn't God?
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I suppose the term atheist can convey an innocuous sort of chap just spreading a little happiness as he goes by. However experience of this forum gives a different picture.
Of course it does, because people are people regardless of what they believe (or don't believe) ... and people come in all forms, depending entirely on what they draw in the genetic lottery.
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What would you call someone who doesn't know but knows it isn't God?
Intelligent.
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Thanks for those links, Shaker. I was particularly interested in ''Freethinker'' which I will peruse at leisure.
The definition of agnostic atheist is what I thought it to be:
Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.
I understand that position very well and may have labelled myself in that way twenty-five years ago, had I thought of the label! I have a much respected close relative who is an agnostic atheist.
(I'll be back later with more opinions, for what they're worth, on Children and Religion, something I've been thinking about but need to precis my thoughts.)
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But by not having a belief in a God, an atheist's understanding of the universe is necessarily very different to that of someone of faith. I appreciate that atheists don't want to acknowledge that they have an 'atheist' way of life, but its an unavoidable logic progession.
By the way, what is an agnostic atheist? Either you don't have a belief in a God and are an atheist; or you are unsure whether there is one or not, and hence an agnostic.
What is an 'atheist' way of life?
I am an atheist and I have a way of life. I assume that other atheists also have a way of life.
What we need to know from you is how you can tell what someone's way of life is, if the only information you have about them is that they are an atheist?
Regarding agnostic atheist I see Shaker and Brownie have already addressed this, so hopefully you are now clear on it.
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What is an 'atheist' way of life?
I am an atheist and I have a way of life. I assume that other atheists also have a way of life.
What we need to know from you is how you can tell what someone's way of life is, if the only information you have about them is that they are an atheist?
In keeping with the topic of this thread I assume that you have discussed atheism with you children at some point? Did you tell them that there was an atheist way of life?
Regarding agnostic atheist I see Shaker and Brownie have already addressed this, so hopefully you are now clear on it.
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An atheist way of life is one that doesn't follow the rituals and live by the religious year.
Although I'm not an Atheist, I would say much of my life is an "atheist way of life."
My Christian friends life is punctuated with seasons and the bible is followed seasonally and she regularly attends church.
An atheist could follow it and give up things for lent, but is there any point? Other than giving to charity and joining in a religious community.
An atheist lifestyle doesn't put religion or I should say God in its priorities, whereas a religious one does.
A Muslim prays so many times a day, no atheist is going to bother :)
Well if they did, I'd wonder why :)
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A Muslim prays so many times a day, no atheist is going to bother :)
Well if they did, I'd wonder why :)
Atheists don't pray, they don't have anything to pray to!
I'm assuming that by 'pray' you mean addressing some god or other.
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Atheists don't pray, they don't have anything to pray to!
I'm assuming that by 'pray' you mean addressing some god or other.
Yes.
:)
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But by not having a belief in a God, an atheist's understanding of the universe is necessarily very different to that of someone of faith. I appreciate that atheists don't want to acknowledge that they have an 'atheist' way of life, but its an unavoidable logic progession.
By the way, what is an agnostic atheist? Either you don't have a belief in a God and are an atheist; or you are unsure whether there is one or not, and hence an agnostic.
You've been told this before, and often, but you seem determined to portray atheism as a belief system that is somehow akin to a religion: it isn't, and is simply an absence of belief in all and any Gods. The agnostic element indicates no more than that the absence of said belief isn't made on the basis of claiming knowledge, and in my case is primarily because the notion of 'God' is incoherent and meaningless and all the arguments offered by 'believers' are inherently fallacious.
Put simply, in terms of my outlook, my lack of belief in Gods has exactly the same impact as my lack of belief that Glasgow will shortly be overrun by flying purple kangaroos: both are ridiculous notions that, as things stand, have no merit to start with and, so, they can be dismissed as being fanciful fantasy that only the highly credulous would give house-room to.
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An atheist way of life is one that doesn't follow the rituals and live by the religious year.
Although I'm not an Atheist, I would say much of my life is an "atheist way of life."
My Christian friends life is punctuated with seasons and the bible is followed seasonally and she regularly attends church.
An atheist could follow it and give up things for lent, but is there any point? Other than giving to charity and joining in a religious community.
Certainly there is a point to fasting and giving things up. I do it. It helps me stay in shape, reminds me that I was lucky to be born at the time and place that I was. plus when you can have the things again, you appreciate them more.
My point is that you couldn't have known whether I have periods of denying myself things by only knowing that I am an atheist.
An atheist lifestyle doesn't put religion or I should say God in its priorities, whereas a religious one does.
But what does that mean in practice? What does it tell you about how an atheist lives their life.
A Muslim prays so many times a day, no atheist is going to bother :)
Well if they did, I'd wonder why :)
If you think that atheists don't follow rituals then I suggest you come along with me on a Tuesday evening to meditation classes run by Buddhists. You will find lot's of people who follow rituals, the seasons, and whilst not exactly praying, they are in very deep contemplation. Lot's of them would identify as atheists, even some of the Buddhists, although they normally refer to themselves more as non-theists.
And then you can probably find atheists who do absolutely non of those things.
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And then you can probably find atheists who do absolutely non of those things.
Like me, for example! :)
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It can also cause otherwise intelligent - as well as those less endowed with said intelligence - to act as incredibly idiotic and self-ignoring people in attempts to save the lives of fellow human beings.
Len, its time you stopped stereotyping people of faith, because your claim can be equally applied to those with no religious belief. The important word in your post is 'can'; this doesn't mean 'does'.
What do you mean by, 'save the lives of other human beings'?
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I didn't know you had to believe in God to work for the Red Cross.
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I didn't know you had to believe in God to work for the Red Cross.
Or other charities.
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Oh yes but I was particularly thinking of the Red Cross because they do go to places where lives need saving.
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Oh yes but I was particularly thinking of the Red Cross because they do go to places where lives need saving.
Like Medicine Sans Frontiers.
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Yup, an excellent organisation.