Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: JP on April 27, 2016, 08:40:54 PM
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A topic for discussion on Twitter. #regressive left
Empowered by the election of Corbyn, who I would wager is not unsympathetic to many of the views expressed, however he is between the proverbial rock and a hard place probably agreeing with some of those views which are are amongst other things, pretty nasty or paranoid, or both, but also needing to remain popular and middle of the road to the general populace if he ever has any chance of election.
Not that I believe he has a chance but heyho.
The recent election for the position of president of the NUS, won by a person whose campaigns have included Why Is My Curriculum White, opposes the government's Prevent counter-extremism strategy and is co-author of a blog for a Friends of Palestine campaign group which claimed that "the University of Birmingham is something of a Zionist outpost in British Higher Education".
Here's me thinking the position was one for a person who would represent students.
Add to this the events of the last few days regarding the labour MP for Bradford West who seems more concerned about Israel than representing her constituents, hmmm, but on second thoughts, perhaps she is representing them.
As for the ecomomy, if the regressive left ever made it to No 10 we would be the next Venezuela, a socialist paradise.
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It may be just me but things like "I would wager" and "probably" never inspire much confidence in the evidential rigour of an argument.
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It's the resurgence of the Loony Left - just what the Right have been praying for - for years.
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The NUS has been dominated by bell end politics for decades.
More importantly, the influx of RSL/Militant Tendency/ Socialist Party types into the Labour Party is cause for grave concern. Neil Kinnock to his great credit managed to expel their leaders and disempower their supporters (if you want to know what they were like just ask Frank Field MP), and in doing so made Labour electable. Corbyn iMHO has just made Labour unelectable again, because under our voting system (which Labour fought so hard to maintain), hundreds of Dave Sparts in Inner City City seats pile up wasted votes, it's the sixty or so marginals who determine who wins (and now that the Lib Dems are gone, the Tories are changing the boundaries to suit themselves).
As for yet another silly kid getting involved in "jokes" that backfire, it's fair to say that nobody ever seems to learn from other peoples mistakes.
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It may be just me but things like "I would wager" and "probably" never inspire much confidence in the evidential rigour of an argument.
It's an opinion as much as an argument. It is certainly not intended to be the result of an academic paper up for peer review.
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Socialists in a socialist party?
Whatever next ::)
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It's an opinion as much as an argument.
In which case I can invoke Hitchens's First Law (or Hitchens's Razor) and leave it at that.
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Socialists with ideological inconsistency. Liberals (socialists) who typically speak out against illiberal ideas such as misogyny, homophobia, blasphemy laws and so on suddenly prostitute themselves as they realise votes can be gained by ignoring these liberal poilices at will.
No debate from these people, as safe spaces mean thay can simply no platform anyone who does not fit their regressive agenda and when protesting they are deemed to be "activists", while anyone who disagrees with their warped thinking are extreme right wing.
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In which case I can invoke Hitchens's First Law (or Hitchens's Razor) and leave it at that.
Okay, so we won't be seeing any further contributions to this thread then.
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Okay, so we won't be seeing any further contributions to this thread then.
Not to bare assertion (even if fobbed off as 'opinion,' as though that counts for anything) masquerading as fact, no. We have the Christian Topic for that; I'd hoped P&CA would be better.
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Not to bare assertion (even if fobbed off as 'opinion,' as though that counts for anything) masquerading as fact, no. We have the Christian Topic for that; I'd hoped P&CA would be better.
The 'Far Left' the 'Regressive Left' or the 'Loony Left' (which ever title you prefer) only preach to their own people. They have nothing to say that would attract the vast majority of voters in this country. Therefore: they are easily portrayed as an isolated fringe group, a perfect target for the tabloids, but because they have gained a strangle-hold on the Labour Party, they destroy the party's credibility - hence, the Tories love them.
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Not to bare assertion (even if fobbed off as 'opinion,' as though that counts for anything) masquerading as fact, no. We have the Christian Topic for that; I'd hoped P&CA would be better.
Why does it interest you so much that you choose to keep responding. The NUS and Bradford MP are factual stories, the rest is my opinion.
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The 'Far Left' the 'Regressive Left' or the 'Loony Left' (which ever title you prefer) only preach to their own people. They have nothing to say that would attract the vast majority of voters in this country. Therefore: they are easily portrayed as an isolated fringe group, a perfect target for the tabloids, but because they have gained a strangle-hold on the Labour Party, they destroy the party's credibility - hence, the Tories love them.
The bolded bit, I like it, nice way of putting it.
I see Ken has been suspended. They are falling by way of the same McCarthy'esqe political correcteness they forced onto the general populace. A sort of shot themseles in the foot, most amusing.
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And in the meantime the loony right are running the show.
So hilarious my sides are splitting.
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And in the meantime the loony right are running the show.
So hilarious my sides are splitting.
We live in 'interesting' times.
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The NUS has been dominated by bell end politics for decades.
More importantly, the influx of RSL/Militant Tendency/ Socialist Party types into the Labour Party is cause for grave concern. Neil Kinnock to his great credit managed to expel their leaders and disempower their supporters (if you want to know what they were like just ask Frank Field MP), and in doing so made Labour electable. Corbyn iMHO has just made Labour unelectable again, because under our voting system (which Labour fought so hard to maintain), hundreds of Dave Sparts in Inner City City seats pile up wasted votes, it's the sixty or so marginals who determine who wins (and now that the Lib Dems are gone, the Tories are changing the boundaries to suit themselves).
As for yet another silly kid getting involved in "jokes" that backfire, it's fair to say that nobody ever seems to learn from other peoples mistakes.
For a moment I thought that the great British pubic had seen through the Conservatives. I didn't realise until looking at the polls the urge to stick with a decision made in 2015 no matter what, would out weigh any bunching . It looks as though the gbp is once again back on for letting th Conservatives have their 3 goes in government. By 2025 you won't find anyone who will admit to voting for Cameron.
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For a moment I thought that the great British pubic had seen through the Conservatives. I didn't realise until looking at the polls the urge to stick with a decision made in 2015 no matter what, would out weigh any bunching . It looks as though the gbp is once again back on for letting the Conservatives have their 3 goes in government. By 2025 you won't find anyone who will admit to voting for Cameron.
You haven't considered the possibility that it's because all the others are worse? . . . just take a closer look at the alternatives.
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You haven't considered the possibility that it's because all the others are worse? . . . just take a closer look at the alternatives.
Yes I must admit ,things worse under labour is a stage between voting labour out and voting the conservatives out. However if we have reached this phase already in the cycle then we are closer to the latter........having moved from phase two........keeping labour out.
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Yes I must admit ,things worse under labour is a stage between voting labour out and voting the conservatives out. However if we have reached this phase already in the cycle then we are closer to the latter........having moved from phase two........keeping labour out.
However things seem now, just forget it. Switch off for a couple of months and everything with have changed ::)
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However things seem now, just forget it. Switch off for a couple of months and everything with have changed ::)
Ah yes there is of course the change of leader gambit.Brexit means Tory party number two
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I'm going to keep popping up on this one as and when I find something which I consider ridiculous. Mind you, there is plenty to choose from out there but this I found was particularly so.
The new buzz thing from the regressives is all about cultural appropriation - the adoption of elements of one culture by members of another culture, specifically I might add, as I suspect the reverse either cannot be true or is not worthy of mention, the adoption of the minority culture by the majority. Apparantly these can include but are not restricted to, hairstyles, music, fancy dress, food etc etc and so on and so forth, and the key to this is that is that none of these are a celebration of or a sharing of that culture in our mutually diverse and inclusive multi cultural society, but they are actually the power dynamic by which the majority oppresses the minority.
Ergo it is colonial oppresssion.
The latest victim is Queens college at Cambridge who had to cancel an African themed event, but more to follow?
http://tinyurl.com/gsm5gpj
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I agree that Labour is unelectable but the real question is what are the PLP going to do about it?
Corbyn will, with time, take more and more power to his cause leaving the moderate lot to be on the fringes, and so create the illusion that the party isn't split - so the mods need to act sooner than later? If he bombs in 2020 I can't see how the ones who voted him in will not ensure is continuous. So what do the rest, the centre left lot, do?
Labour seem doomed to be dragged down into the political gutter before they have any chance of rising again. And that could mean many years or government terms......?
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Corbyn will, with time, take more and more power to his cause leaving the moderate lot to the fringes
Yay! :D
Exactly where the pale blue Thatcherite pretend Noddy Play School imitation would-be Labour bastards belong - on the fringes.
Hairdressers know what to do with fringes - trim them.
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Dear Jack,
Corbyn will, with time, take more and more power to his cause leaving the moderate lot to be on the fringes,
I agree with Shaker, time for real politics, no more sticking plasters, time for the people of Great Britain to say, you are very lucky, lets spread that luck to our less fortunate, give them a chance to share in our good fortune, it is the Christian thing to do.
Gonnagle.
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Yay! :D
Exactly where the pale blue Thatcherite pretend Noddy Play School imitation would-be Labour bastards belong - on the fringes.
Hairdressers know what to do with fringes - trim them.
So you think Corbyn is electable?
If not, then what is the point of him being leader?
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Dear Jack,
I agree with Shaker, time for real politics, no more sticking plasters, time for the people of Great Britain to say, you are very lucky, lets spread that luck to our less fortunate, give them a chance to share in our good fortune, it is the Christian thing to do.
Gonnagle.
But as I implied to Shakes, Corbyn and his lot aren't going to be voted into power.
And if his type - your type - was given power how would they spread it around, as you put it?
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But as I implied to Shakes, Corbyn and his lot aren't going to be voted into power.
I think that one remains to be seen, don't you?
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Whether he does or he doesn't he offers a proper choice again. British politics really needed to have that.
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I think that one remains to be seen, don't you?
You should at least provide a scenario where it comes about by 2020 or are you saying after that? Because at the moment the people are not with him or that the numbers are well short - consider the dire strait of Labour in Scotland.
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Whether he does or he doesn't he offers a proper choice again. British politics really needed to have that.
What about UKIP and the Greens, they're just a good as choice as Corbyn if not better.
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What about UKIP and the Greens, they're just a good as choice as Corbyn if not better.
I wasn't talking about chance, I was talking about choice. We have choices now.
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I wasn't talking about chance, I was talking about choice. We have choices now.
I think you replied to the wrong post, I was also talking about choice.
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My apologies, Jack. Posting on my phone without my specs.
Arguably you won't be able to get a fag paper between the Greens and Labour under Corbyn. But I'm not sure that you can say that a 'good' choice is the right term particularly as you then include UKIP - what is good and bad is subjective, although arguably a case can be made that one is worse than another. The important thing is that we now have clear choices as to where we cast our votes.
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You should at least provide a scenario where it comes about by 2020 or are you saying after that? Because at the moment the people are not with him or that the numbers are well short - consider the dire strait of Labour in Scotland.
Yes and let's not forget the Scots Conservative who routed the SNP into a humiliating FIRST place.
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I agree that Labour is unelectable but the real question is what are the PLP going to do about it?
Corbyn will, with time, take more and more power to his cause leaving the moderate lot to be on the fringes, and so create the illusion that the party isn't split - so the mods need to act sooner than later? If he bombs in 2020 I can't see how the ones who voted him in will not ensure is continuous. So what do the rest, the centre left lot, do?
Labour seem doomed to be dragged down into the political gutter before they have any chance of rising again. And that could mean many years or government terms......?
If Corbyn consolidates his hold on power the moderates will have no alternative but to split - it will be 1981 all over again; so get out all your old Shakin' Stevens vinyls and put on those leg warmers.
My guess is that Theresa May will become the Iron Lady so stand by for fireworks in the South Atlantic.
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Dear Jack,
And if his type - your type - was given power how would they spread it around, as you put it?
My type, what is my type, I have been a Labour/Consevative/SNP supporter throughout my life, I have listened to UKIP and thought some of the things they say sounds sensible, The Greens are, well they are the Greens, so I am unsure about what my type is, I suppose as I grow older my politics nowadays is governed by the word "fairness" and that is fairness for all, I certainly don't want the rich to pay higher taxes than me, just that they pay their fair share of taxes, you earn a quid you pay your tax on that quid, you don't have a fancy accountant use loopholes to avoid paying your fair share.
As for spreading it around, well the most sensible thing I have heard on here and from Mr Corbyn is renationalise the railway, the work force of good old GB should not have to pay through the nose to keep the wheels of industry moving, then there is the sticky subject of trident, do we keep it, scrap it, Pandora's box is open so bugger all we can do about, I don't really know what to do about it, but it is very expensive business and should be discussed, and at a European level, maybe even global.
Mr Corbyn, ( when the man can get a word in and not being heckled by the weak chins ) sounds sensible, I don't think he is a big fan of Brussels, but better the devil you know, Corbyn is the very man to hold Brussels to account, Cameron is not, the way I see it his heart is not in it, the Tories for me are all smoke and Mirrors, this whole European Referendum is one big smoke and mirrors, Tories squabbling over Europe, more smoke and mirrors, we still have companies going bust, we still have foodbanks, the NHS is being ridden rough shod, I know, I see it first hand, I was at a meeting where just my department had to find savings of 70 million pounds, don't just take my word for it, ask ProfDavey, he also works in the NHS.
Time to spread the wealth Jack old son, no more austerity, the people of GB are fed up with unfairness and austerity.
Gonnagle.
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... don't just take my word for it, ask ProfDavey, he also works in the NHS.
... as does trent, while we're at it.
Excellent post gonners.
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Mr Corbyn, ( when the man can get a word in and not being heckled by the weak chins ) sounds sensible, I don't think he is a big fan of Brussels, but better the devil you know, Corbyn is the very man to hold Brussels to account, Cameron is not, the way I see it his heart is not in it, the Tories for me are all smoke and Mirrors, this whole European Referendum is one big smoke and mirrors, Tories squabbling over Europe, more smoke and mirrors, we still have companies going bust, we still have foodbanks, the NHS is being ridden rough shod, I know, I see it first hand, I was at a meeting where just my department had to find savings of 70 million pounds, don't just take my word for it, ask ProfDavey, he also works in the NHS.
Against all my expectations I have to say - the only sensible voice I have heard from Labour in recent times is Hilary Benn. Is he the only person in the party who hasn't fallen victim to the collective death-wish?
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Dear Lapsed,
Your man Hilary Benn is a great orator, he can set the pulse racing, but that is all, he has fallen for the Blairite agenda, there are still some in the Labour party who think Tory, this must change and I think the Tory party has to change to, the world has suddenly got a lot smaller, migration is a big issue now, we can't shut up shop and hope they go away, the Labour party and the Tories need to get tough, I don't mean tell them to go away, they need to step up and say, what are we as Europeans going to do, or more simply, what are we as humans going to do.
As for Corbyn, very poor orator, you really need to listen carefully and think hard when that man talks, but I think it is worth it.
Gonnagle.
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My apologies, Jack. Posting on my phone without my specs.
Arguably you won't be able to get a fag paper between the Greens and Labour under Corbyn. But I'm not sure that you can say that a 'good' choice is the right term particularly as you then include UKIP - what is good and bad is subjective, although arguably a case can be made that one is worse than another. The important thing is that we now have clear choices as to where we cast our votes.
Though it may be true about the fag paper it is also about perceived credibility and all that. People may vote for a party who is similar to another only because they are new or novel and that they have no past track record that puts them in a bad light. Or just for a change...
I did say 'as good as' not good. But your comment about UKIP, with regards to this, shows your bias and a heap load of unfounded assumptions.
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Yes and let's not forget the Scots Conservative who routed the SNP into a humiliating FIRST place.
It wasn't a majority and now they (Scotland) have been given more powers we'll see how long they last. The SNP have been all talk to date but now they have to put their words into actions...
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Dear Vlad,
Yes and let's not forget the Scots Conservative who routed the SNP into a humiliating FIRST place.
The Borders have spoken and what they are saying is, we don't want a border.
Have the SNP lost their tartan tory name, we watch and wait ??? ???
Gonnagle.
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If Corbyn consolidates his hold on power the moderates will have no alternative but to split - it will be 1981 all over again; so get out all your old Shakin' Stevens vinyls and put on those leg warmers.
My guess is that Theresa May will become the Iron Lady so stand by for fireworks in the South Atlantic.
They say a week is a long time in politics and who knows what will happen up to 2020? But as it looks Labour are stuffed and are heading for an internecine disintegration. The Conservatives are not free from this either as the referendum is doing them a lot of harm and they have made a load of U-turns, and Osborne has been a fumbling fool with his budgets. Not to mention the perceived return of the nasty party.
This leaves the other burgeoning parties to flourish in the changing political waters of our present times - as we see in European and across the pond.
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Dear Jack,
My type, what is my type, I have been a Labour/Consevative/SNP supporter throughout my life, I have listened to UKIP and thought some of the things they say sounds sensible, The Greens are, well they are the Greens, so I am unsure about what my type is, I suppose as I grow older my politics nowadays is governed by the word "fairness" and that is fairness for all, I certainly don't want the rich to pay higher taxes than me, just that they pay their fair share of taxes, you earn a quid you pay your tax on that quid, you don't have a fancy accountant use loopholes to avoid paying your fair share.
As for spreading it around, well the most sensible thing I have heard on here and from Mr Corbyn is renationalise the railway, the work force of good old GB should not have to pay through the nose to keep the wheels of industry moving, then there is the sticky subject of trident, do we keep it, scrap it, Pandora's box is open so bugger all we can do about, I don't really know what to do about it, but it is very expensive business and should be discussed, and at a European level, maybe even global.
Mr Corbyn, ( when the man can get a word in and not being heckled by the weak chins ) sounds sensible, I don't think he is a big fan of Brussels, but better the devil you know, Corbyn is the very man to hold Brussels to account, Cameron is not, the way I see it his heart is not in it, the Tories for me are all smoke and Mirrors, this whole European Referendum is one big smoke and mirrors, Tories squabbling over Europe, more smoke and mirrors, we still have companies going bust, we still have foodbanks, the NHS is being ridden rough shod, I know, I see it first hand, I was at a meeting where just my department had to find savings of 70 million pounds, don't just take my word for it, ask ProfDavey, he also works in the NHS.
Time to spread the wealth Jack old son, no more austerity, the people of GB are fed up with unfairness and austerity.
Gonnagle.
My question about how would you spread it around really refers to the financial system and the banks. To do what you want to do you first need to kill the beast - the banking system. It is rotten. It should have been dealt with after 2008. The real austerity problem is that we spend (and not only us) a billion a week just to service our government debt. That's 50 billion odd a year. How far would that go for your NHS budget?
Our debt should have been written off and the banking system totally changed. This is why Greece is in the mess it is because the bailouts are there to pay off the banks - Greece only gets 5% of the bailouts the rest just does a round trip back to the banks, but the whole 100% is put on the Greek balance sheet. Greece is bankrupt, it has no hope in hell of paying this debt off and will have all its 'silver' and assets bought off cheap before they write the debt off. It's a scam, Mafia style. They, the banks, are the ones running the world and the EU and they are A1 crooks. And this is what is happening to your NHS, it is being set up to be privatised so the big corporations; funded by the banks, can come in and gut it out, leaving us in the same health service mess the US has.
To do what you want we need to cut out the cancer in our political and social lives.
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Against all my expectations I have to say - the only sensible voice I have heard from Labour in recent times is Hilary Benn. Is he the only person in the party who hasn't fallen victim to the collective death-wish?
Can't stand the weasel!!!
Kate Hoey is my gal!!!
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Dear Jack,
I fully understand your arguments and I agree in the broadest sense but this is where the likes of Corbyn steps in, he will hold the banks to account, he will make sure that the weak, the poor do not suffer for the banks misfortune, the tories are not doing enough to bring the banks into line, they are still trying to hurt our most vulnerable in trying to fix the mess the worlds banks got us into, the tories are to far in bed with the banks, the rich and shameless, the tories don't have the will or the balls to stand up to the banks and I think this will be their downfall, time to stop this austerity nonsense, open the purse strings, spend on infrastructure, housing, open up colleges, stop this race for a university degree, give our youngsters reall skills that this country needs.
Gonnagle.
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Whether he does or he doesn't he offers a proper choice again. British politics really needed to have that.
We've always had choice, if you wanted the hard left there were parties that offered that.
I think what we need is a good opposition to hold the Tory government to account. The Tories have been woeful recently and Corbyn isn't able to land a blow because of the sniping going on in his own party, no policy and massive own goals.
What is the Labour position on Trident? What did John McDonnell suggest for the Google fiasco, a sales tax- but Google sales are in Ireland. The anti-Semitism scandal hasn't helped either.
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Dear Lapsed,
Your man Hilary Benn is a great orator, he can set the pulse racing, but that is all, he has fallen for the Blairite agenda, there are still some in the Labour party who think Tory, this must change and I think the Tory party has to change to, the world has suddenly got a lot smaller, migration is a big issue now, we can't shut up shop and hope they go away, the Labour party and the Tories need to get tough, I don't mean tell them to go away, they need to step up and say, what are we as Europeans going to do, or more simply, what are we as humans going to do.
As for Corbyn, very poor orator, you really need to listen carefully and think hard when that man talks, but I think it is worth it.
Gonnagle.
Hi Gonnagle,
It's a bit of an over-statement to describe Benn as 'my man' , I was simply pointing out that he seems to be the only one who talks sense, and 'talking' is all any politician can do until they gain power. To get power they need to convince their party and the electorate of their credibility. Talking sense is a first step. For most of the electorate, what you call 'Blairism' equates to 'not doing stupid things' .
Corbyn is indeed a very poor orator and pretty poor in every over area too. The far Left love him - but sadly for Labour the voters don't.
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They say a week is a long time in politics and who knows what will happen up to 2020? But as it looks Labour are stuffed and are heading for an internecine disintegration. The Conservatives are not free from this either as the referendum is doing them a lot of harm and they have made a load of U-turns, and Osborne has been a fumbling fool with his budgets. Not to mention the perceived return of the nasty party.
If the Conservatives are able to sort themselves out after the referendum and Labour keep Corbyn, it will be a very long time before we ever see another Labour government.
This leaves the other burgeoning parties to flourish in the changing political waters of our present times - as we see in European and across the pond.
'First Passed the Post' does not favour small parties.
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Dear Jack,
I fully understand your arguments and I agree in the broadest sense but this is where the likes of Corbyn steps in, he will hold the banks to account, he will make sure that the weak, the poor do not suffer for the banks misfortune, the tories are not doing enough to bring the banks into line, they are still trying to hurt our most vulnerable in trying to fix the mess the worlds banks got us into, the tories are to far in bed with the banks, the rich and shameless, the tories don't have the will or the balls to stand up to the banks and I think this will be their downfall, time to stop this austerity nonsense, open the purse strings, spend on infrastructure, housing, open up colleges, stop this race for a university degree, give our youngsters reall skills that this country needs.
Gonnagle.
But though Corbyn's intentions are noble he has no power to implement them. If he becomes PM and tries to do this the banks will just downgrade the UK's economy and make borrowing sky-high and bring it to its knees. The people will scream like babies and the Tories will promise to put things straight which means that the banks will upgrade the UK again and make the people pay even more because, as you say, the Tories brown tongue the banking system.
The banks won't yield because people with a huge amount of power do not voluntary give it up, they defend it to the death - this is just human nature. It is like a drug and an addict always wants more. The only way to deal with the bankers and the elites is to have a revolution and basically kill them off.
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We've always had choice, if you wanted the hard left there were parties that offered that.
I think what we need is a good opposition to hold the Tory government to account. The Tories have been woeful recently and Corbyn isn't able to land a blow because of the sniping going on in his own party, no policy and massive own goals.
What is the Labour position on Trident? What did John McDonnell suggest for the Google fiasco, a sales tax- but Google sales are in Ireland. The anti-Semitism scandal hasn't helped either.
But we don't need politics as usual either, which includes the usual old time parties or their machinations. We need something for our changing times, not something from the past.
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Hi Gonnagle,
It's a bit of an over-statement to describe Benn as 'my man' , I was simply pointing out that he seems to be the only one who talks sense, and 'talking' is all any politician can do until they gain power. To get power they need to convince their party and the electorate of their credibility. Talking sense is a first step. For most of the electorate, what you call 'Blairism' equates to 'not doing stupid things' .
Oh like starting an illegal war? Causing total chaos in the Middle East, because of short term planning? Failing to rein in the banks so allowing them to go crazy and cause the financial crash? PFIs? Yeah, right, nothing stupid!!!
Corbyn is indeed a very poor orator and pretty poor in every over area too. The far Left love him - but sadly for Labour the voters don't.
There is talk/rumours of someone from his ilk taking over who is more apt at running a party and being a leader. That is, he would step aside and allow this new guy to take over and carry on his politics.
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If the Conservatives are able to sort themselves out after the referendum and Labour keep Corbyn, it will be a very long time before we ever see another Labour government.
Big IF. This Blue on Blue is not for the faint hearted and I can't see how the Tories will patch things up. At first they may feign it but Cameron is such a nasty, cutting brute it won't last for long. It also depends on the result of the referendum. I think Labour are pretty doomed regardless of the state of the Tories. If the usual Tory voters are really put off by them then I reckon they will vote UKIP. :)
'First Passed the Post' does not favour small parties.
That is true but as one Ukipper said it wouldn't have taken many more votes, say another million to give them a handsome set of seats. They got 118 second places and with a slight increase in their votes in those choice constituencies they could have acquired say 50 seats. If the Greens and others do similar things that would mean a hung parliament with a coalition needing at least three parties. I reckon 2020 will be a complex hung parliament.
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Oh like starting an illegal war? Causing total chaos in the Middle East, because of short term planning? Failing to rein in the banks so allowing them to go crazy and cause the financial crash? PFIs? Yeah, right, nothing stupid!!!
My phrase was Jack "what you call 'Blairism'"
I am certainly no fan of Blair and I'd agree with many of your comments - but - not everything he did was wrong and the Far Left now use the phrase Blairite to describe any moderate polices.
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Big IF. This Blue on Blue is not for the faint hearted and I can't see how the Tories will patch things up. At first they may feign it but Cameron is such a nasty, cutting brute it won't last for long. It also depends on the result of the referendum. I think Labour are pretty doomed regardless of the state of the Tories. If the usual Tory voters are really put off by them then I reckon they will vote UKIP. :)
My guess is that after all the screaming and shouting is over pragmatism will kick-in - the losing side will have nowhere else to go except the political wilderness.
That is true but as one Ukipper said it wouldn't have taken many more votes, say another million to give them a handsome set of seats. They got 118 second places and with a slight increase in their votes in those choice constituencies they could have acquired say 50 seats. If the Greens and others do similar things that would mean a hung parliament with a coalition needing at least three parties. I reckon 2020 will be a complex hung parliament.
After the referendum UKIP will have lost their raison d'etre. If there is a BREXIT vote Douglas Carswell will rejoin the Tories but the rest of the party will just dissolve. If there is a REMAIN vote on the other hand, UKIP will be reduced to small groups of discontents muttering in dark corners.
Either way - no UKIP.
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My guess is that after all the screaming and shouting is over pragmatism will kick-in - the losing side will have nowhere else to go except the political wilderness.
How that spans out will depend on whether the Corbynites fight hard to keep their power. They do have the votes from the members and if they don't care about the electability thing things could get very dirty indeed.
After the referendum UKIP will have lost their raison d'etre. If there is a BREXIT vote Douglas Carswell will rejoin the Tories but the rest of the party will just dissolve. If there is a REMAIN vote on the other hand, UKIP will be reduced to small groups of discontents muttering in dark corners.
Either way - no UKIP.
No, No, No, no, no.
UKIP are a party going from being a movement to a proper political party, hence all the upsets and in fighting.
The political landscape is changing which is a perfect opportunity for a new party to take hold of things. This referendum is just one part of the dissatisfaction that is running through politics in the Western world.
If it is a Remain vote then not only will UKIP keep on fighting on for a Brexit but many of the Tory lot won't let go of the fight. This passion goes very deep into peoples' hearts and it ain't going away.
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UKIP are a party going from being a movement to a proper political party, hence all the upsets and in fighting.
The political landscape is changing which is a perfect opportunity for a new party to take hold of things. This referendum is just one part of the dissatisfaction that is running through politics in the Western world.
If it is a Remain vote then not only will UKIP keep on fighting on for a Brexit but many of the Tory lot won't let go of the fight. This passion goes very deep into peoples' hearts and it ain't going away.
UKIP almost certainly peeked at the last election - and only got a single MP (who had previously been the Conservative MP and hence had a good local following). If BREXIT wins the referendum, the Tories will replace UKIP's role. UKIP will be weaker than ever and without a purpose.
If REMAIN wins, what can UKIP do? - They will have to accept the democratic decision of The People.
It only remains to be seen whether UKIP ends with a bang or a whimper.
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UKIP almost certainly peeked at the last election - and only got a single MP (who had previously been the Conservative MP and hence had a good local following). If BREXIT wins the referendum, the Tories will replace UKIP's role. UKIP will be weaker than ever and without a purpose.
If REMAIN wins, what can UKIP do? - They will have to accept the democratic decision of The People.
It only remains to be seen whether UKIP ends with a bang or a whimper.
So every political party that loses an election, accepts the will of the people, immediately folds, and they all go home?
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So every political party that loses an election, accepts the will of the people, immediately folds, and they all go home?
No - as I pointed out earlier, UKIP's raison d'etre has been getting Britain out of Europe. As you might have noticed we are about to have a referendum which will (hopefully) decide the issue - which would appear to leave UKIP without a purpose.
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No - as I pointed out earlier, UKIP's raison d'etre has been getting Britain out of Europe. As you might have noticed we are about to have a referendum which will (hopefully) decide the issue - which would appear to leave UKIP without a purpose.
Surely the purpose of a political party is to represent a view? This seems even more bizarre as you seem to be stating everyone who voted Leave should stop thinking it's the right thing.
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Surely the purpose of a political party is to represent a view? This seems even more bizarre as you seem to be staying everyone who voted Leave should stop thinking tie the right thing.
UKIP was established to get Britain out of the EU and some might say that they have been highly successful in forcing the referendum. But having set up a democratic process like a referendum, you really need to accept the result.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't continue as a political party - just that I don't see much future for them.
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UKIP was established to get Britain out of the EU and some might say that they have been highly successful in forcing the referendum. But having set up a democratic process like a referendum, you really need to accept the result.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't continue as a political party - just that I don't see much future for them.
See SNP and the quadrupling of their membership after losing the referendum
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See SNP and the quadrupling of their membership after losing the referendum
I think you are seeing parallels that don't exist.
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I think you are seeing parallels that don't exist.
I'm not suggesting it is a parallel, just that assuming losing a referendum means your support will melt away as you seem to suggest is demonstrably incorrect.
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I'm not suggesting it is a parallel, just that assuming losing a referendum means your support will melt away as you seem to suggest is demonstrably incorrect.
After the referendum UKIP's 'fox will have been shot'. If it's Brexit the Tories will take all credit and UKIP will be totally marginalised (and they could only get 1 MP at their peek)
If it's a Remain vote they of course they can whine, but the country will need to move on and everyone will be sick-to-death of the EU debate, so they are not going to get another referendum any time soon - so all they can do is moan.
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UKIP almost certainly peeked at the last election - and only got a single MP (who had previously been the Conservative MP and hence had a good local following). If BREXIT wins the referendum, the Tories will replace UKIP's role. UKIP will be weaker than ever and without a purpose.
If REMAIN wins, what can UKIP do? - They will have to accept the democratic decision of The People.
It only remains to be seen whether UKIP ends with a bang or a whimper.
This referendum has polarized things and will split the Tories, or at least degrade them as the electorate don't like a divided party. This will leave UKIP free to develop themselves as a political party and give them a good chance for the future. Brexit can only boost them as they will be seen as the party that brought the people their wish to leave the EU.
As for a Remain victory, the argument and issue to leave the EU is a strong and valid one and those against it will keep on fighting for it. The other thing here is that the conduct of the EU after a Remain victory will, I think, create a demand for another referendum in a few years time. Brussels are arrogant, egotistical twats and will surely irk the British people and this will give UKIP a boost in the poles.
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Brussels UKIP are arrogant, egotistical twats and will surely irk the British people and this will give UKIP Brussels a boost in the polls.
FTFY
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After the referendum UKIP's 'fox will have been shot'. If it's Brexit the Tories will take all credit and UKIP will be totally marginalised (and they could only get 1 MP at their peek)
If it's a Remain vote they of course they can whine, but the country will need to move on and everyone will be sick-to-death of the EU debate, so they are not going to get another referendum any time soon - so all they can do is moan.
What?? :o ::)
The official line of the Tories is to stay in!!! If it is Brexit then Cameron is out for sure. The people who will get the credit will be UKIP.
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FTFY
You blind, naïve fool.
This is why the EU is failing because it is run by monkeys like you who have no idea of reality or the misery they are causing the people. One is suppose to learn from history but it seems the French Revolution has gone right over your/their head(s).
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You blind, naïve fool.
This is why the EU is failing because it is run by monkeys like you who have no idea of reality or the misery they are causing the people. One is suppose to learn from history but it seems the French Revolution has gone right over your/their head(s).
I am finding your attitude of insulting everyone who disagrees with you particularly unpleasant - not to mention unproductive in terms of you trying to argue your case. I am by turn a monkey, I am blind and I am a fool.
What specific misery is it causing you as you sit in front of your pc typing your bile?
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Dear Jack,
Yeah!! calm down old son, we all love you :-*
How do you get those two wee dots on top of your naive, I don't see it on my keyboard ???
Gonnagle.
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I am finding your attitude of insulting everyone who disagrees with you particularly unpleasant - not to mention unproductive in terms of you trying to argue your case. I am by turn a monkey, I am blind and I am a fool.
What specific misery is it causing you as you sit in front of your pc typing your bile?
You claim to have done something which you haven't and then asked me to reply to it. Likewise, I find stupidity in others, usually trying to be obfuscatory on the issue, as 'particularly unpleasant', hence my contemptuous response.
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Dear Jack,
Yeah!! calm down old son, we all love you :-*
How do you get those two wee dots on top of your naive, I don't see it on my keyboard ???
Gonnagle.
I'm fine Gonny. Just enjoying myself being creative.
As for those two dots, spittle. Though getting such a fine spray isn't that easy. ;D
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You claim to have done something which you haven't and then asked me to reply to it. Likewise, I find stupidity in others, usually trying to be obfuscatory on the issue, as 'particularly unpleasant', hence my contemptuous response.
I didn't know you could get your sense of humour removed on the NHS. Still, Nige can afford for you to go private can't he?
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I didn't know you could get your sense of humour removed on the NHS. Still, Nige can afford for you to go private can't he?
You are stupid to moan about my comments to you when you come out with inane material as that. ::)
Perhaps if you tried actually forming an argument or cogent comment things would proceed in a more smoother manner.
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You are stupid to moan about my comments to you when you come out with inane material as that. ::)
Perhaps if you tried actually forming an argument or cogent comment things would proceed in a more smoother manner.
Yes of course I will you blind, naïve monkey.
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As for a Remain victory, the argument and issue to leave the EU is a strong and valid one and those against it will keep on fighting for it. The other thing here is that the conduct of the EU after a Remain victory will, I think, create a demand for another referendum in a few years time. Brussels are arrogant, egotistical twats and will surely irk the British people and this will give UKIP a boost in the poles.
Couldn't disagree more -UKIP are a 'one trick pony' , if they fail in the referendum, they have blown it.
. . . and ironically, if they succeed in the referendum they will also have blown it - because the Tories will claim all the credit.
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Couldn't disagree more -UKIP are a 'one trick pony' , if they fail in the referendum, they have blown it.
. . . and ironically, if they succeed in the referendum they will also have blown it - because the Tories will claim all the credit.
I disagree, look what happened to the SNP, they are a number of voters who won't vote Tory for tribal reasons, yet see immigration as an issue. Labour were at least paying lip service to issue prior to Corbyn now not so much, also don't forget if you voted leave what other party represents you than UKIP, all others will be Europhile.
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I disagree, look what happened to the SNP, they are a number of voters who won't vote Tory for tribal reasons, yet see immigration as an issue. Labour were at least paying lip service to issue prior to Corbyn now not so much, also don't forget if you voted leave what other party represents you than UKIP, all others will be Europhile.
I said in an earlier posting that if the country votes to Remain, UKIP will be reduced to small groups of malcontent's muttering in corners - and I still think that will be the case. They will have thrown everything they could muster into the project and the country rejected them! They certainly couldn't justify another referendum and we sure as hell aren't going to quit without one.
They will just be a load of grumpy old gits without a cause.
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I said in an earlier posting that if the country votes to Remain, UKIP will be reduced to small groups of malcontent's muttering in corners - and I still think that will be the case. They will have thrown everything they could muster into the project and the country rejected them! They certainly couldn't justify another referendum and we sure as hell aren't going to quit without one.
They will just be a load of grumpy old gits without a cause.
I'm no fan of UKIP but I think your post is an example of wishful thinking. If we vote leave then their cause is over, vote remain and UKIP goes on.
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I'm no fan of UKIP but I think your post is an example of wishful thinking. If we vote leave then their cause is over, vote remain and UKIP goes on.
I'm sure that there will be the die-hards, but will any serious politicians really want to pursue a lost cause? Will the public really want another sodding referendum?
Which ever way it goes we will need to move on.
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I'm sure that there will be the die-hards, but will any serious politicians really want to pursue a lost cause? Will the public really want another sodding referendum?
Which ever way it goes we will need to move on.
If we vote leave I'm pretty confident the EU will offer another deal, another referendum based on this new deal... I'm pretty sure that from that deal there will be a strong remain vote. Then we can move on and UKIP will be pushed to the fringe anything else they stay in play.
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Couldn't disagree more -UKIP are a 'one trick pony' , if they fail in the referendum, they have blown it.
. . . and ironically, if they succeed in the referendum they will also have blown it - because the Tories will claim all the credit.
You can disagree as much as you like you will be proved wrong. Politics is changing.
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I'm sure that there will be the die-hards, but will any serious politicians really want to pursue a lost cause? Will the public really want another sodding referendum?
Which ever way it goes we will need to move on.
Talking about moving on, where is the EU going? It is breaking apart. There are more and more parties across its members who are taking a anti-EU stance. Two of its pillars are crumbling : Schengen and the Euro.
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The core labour voter was the working man. Coal miners, ship builders, steelworkers....., of course many of these jobs have gone but the people still exist, they are just doing other things.
It is a pity the party they used to look up to now holds these very same people in such contempt. Once again a person who has concerns is called a "horrible racist". The labour party seem to do this a lot.
She went on to say, "I'm never coming back to wherever this is". You couldn't make it up.
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The core labour voter was the working man. Coal miners, ship builders, steelworkers....., of course many of these jobs have gone but the people still exist, they are just doing other things.
It is a pity the party they used to look up to now holds these very same people in such contempt.
That certainly used to be the case during pretend-Labour's Tory-lite nightmare years (i.e. when Labour was for some reason run - I use the word loosely - by people who couldn't even spell socialism let alone espouse it), but not any more.
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Two of its pillars are crumbling : Schengen and the Euro.
How can they be pillars of the EU when not all of the EU's members are in either of them?
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How can they be pillars of the EU when not all of the EU's members are in either of them?
That is besides the point. These are fundamental parts of their big plan of Ever-Closer-Union. They are part of what define and sum up what the EU is about and where it wants to go and by definition are part of the pillars of their foundation that are holding up their big fat wet dream!!! If they crumble, as they are doing, then the whole edifice of the EU will collapse, and with it the Neo-Liberal, Western project and the financial system which is its evil black hole that all of these satellites revolve around .
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That is besides the point.
No it isn't, it's exactly the point.
These are fundamental parts of their big plan of Ever-Closer-Union.
Well it's not working then, is it.
They are part of what define and sum up what the EU is about
How can they be when several member states are not in Schengen or the Euro?
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That certainly used to be the case during pretend-Labour's Tory-lite nightmare years (i.e. when Labour was for some reason run - I use the word loosely - by people who couldn't even spell socialism let alone espouse it), but not any more.
When you get to a certain age, you come to realise things are just actually repeating themselves so whatever the current labour lot do will be nothing new. If I could guess I would expect it to be some sort of Chavez- lite - socialist - paradise and as Corbyn seems to be intent on repealing the laws pertaining to trade unions, how many Scargills and Crows are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of that (always best to keep a tin handy...).
For all the pronises, it won't work, again. After a single parliament or maybe two if they're lucky, people will have had enough and vote in the Tories once more on promises of a better this and that, but the reality will be the same as the last time. It always is.
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Dear JP,
So you think the world has not moved on, do you think Mr Corbyn has not grown up, still stuck in what we call old socialist views, I don't think he is, I think the man has grown, but that is not the only thing to consider, giving the unions a bit more clout ( not trade unions, old school ) is something to consider, why, because of greed, shareholders need to consider that their profits are not short term things, they need to think about the long term, reinvestment of profits so that the company can survive, short term profits, the fast buck only hurts companies.
I am not a union fan, but they are a necessary evil, they are there to stop management treating the workforce like some kind of commodity, for Britain to survive in this big bad world we need to reinvest in our most precious possession, the people, stop seeking the fast buck.
Also with new technology, the world is watching, unions can't get away, their tactics will be out there for all to see, information is very easy to get a hold of now and I think the British public are now more politically savvy, and I have witnessed over the years that the British public are less inclined to be sympathetic to the whims of union who just say, right brothers, lets strike, unions need to be very careful now about what action they take.
Who is stuck in the old mold, the Tories, old politics for a old generation, top down politics, the profits will trickle down to the workforce, not when greed is involved, the Tories need to realise that they are not just governing for the ones who voted them in, they have a responsibility to everyone in Britain, just like the SNP here in Scotland, they need to get over Independence and start governing for everyone and it is great that the Tories and SNP are now minority governments, they need to talk.
Short term greed versus long term prosperity.
Gonnagle.
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I think the world had moved on a lot Gonners. I think the socialism in the days I was growing up when I played with children who had the arse hanging out their trousers, wore hand me down shoes, had to cross the road for a crap and took a bath in an oversized tin in front of the fire is a different type of socialism to today where these same children, as adults, own their own home, run two cars and holiday abroad twice a year. Now don't berate me as I know there is still a lot of poverty, all I am saying is there is a lot more wealth in the hands or more people than there used to be.
Is Corbyn the man on a white stallion who will spread this wealth even further? Who knows.
I'm not getting into a tit for tat over it as I think you will find my views are not too far from those you hold yourself. I am a child of the Northumberland coalfields.
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I think that Labour govts do make a difference in some areas. For example, much as I dislike Blair, he put money into the NHS, and I could see the difference. Now I have to wait 2 weeks to see a GP. Surely, this is deliberate policy by the Tories?
At the same time, Blair did a lot of bad stuff, so rather like Clinton in the US, you hold your nose to vote.
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Dear JP,
Well old son, I am trying to figure out if that has ever been my thinking, where I came from affects my vote, yes I came from a poor background, but the term "working class" always bothered me, to me it always said, I am working class and better than you, like, I work for my money what do you do.
I suppose where I am coming from is that I don't want Britain to be another America, a rich country but still suffers from poverty, to me that is madness, something perverse in saying to the poor, I worked hard for what I have got away and do the same, I think the mentality should be, I got lucky, lets spread the luck, the phrase, there for the grace of God, replace the word God with, lucky breaks.
Give the poor the means to work themselves out of poverty, stop telling them to, away and get a job, invest in them, I am sure everyone will benefit in the long run.
Gonnagle.
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Strop being silly Gonners.
We all know how it works:
To get the rich to work harder you pay them more.
To get the poor to work harder you pay them less.
Simple innit ::) :P
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No it isn't, it's exactly the point.
Well it's not working then, is it.
How can they be when several member states are not in Schengen or the Euro?
One, am talking about their ideal and what the EU should be, for them, in their eyes. And two, most of them are in both and a sufficient number, and most of the wealthier ones, are such that should these pillars collapse then the whole thing comes tumbling down. ;D
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Just catching up as I've been away, and this is a classic.....
Natalie Geraldine Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes
Richard Collet-White
Esme Waldron
Alex Etchart
William Pettifer
Deborah Francis-Grayson
Sam Lund-Harket
Ben Tippet
Sama Baka
Responsible for the disruption at the London City Airport. Costs unknown but could easily be into the million(s) plus the 9000 people who were screwed over.
Rich and priveleged, Corbynites I bet. Just like them to know what is good for the "working man". Mind you, when they get tired of this hobby no doubt they will have a career waiting for them in the city, or the arts, or 100K director of a charity, or working for the UN. I'm sure daddy or one of his friends will fix them up with something.
I also see they got conditional discharges. Very magnanimous of the Judge.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/black-lives-matter-uk-activists-sentenced-after-city-airport-protest-grounded-hundreds-flights-1581384
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I didn’t want to start a new thread so thought I would stick this here as it is a bit regressiveleftyish.
It is choice, liberating. Nobody forces me to wear it. It is my faith.
As a feminist, I support your right to wear Hijab because it's a choice. Help by supporting them on world hijab day.
I see there was an Australian woman who flew all the way to France so she could wear a burkini on a beach while the Guardian ran a piece, “Five reasons to wear a burkini – and not just annoy the French”.
I also see the women’s world chess championships are to be held in Iran and the same paper has a piece with the banner, “Boycott of world chess championship would hurt women in Iran”
Now, I hear you asking yourselves, why would these women chess players boycott the world chess championship. Perhaps it is because players have been told they must compete at next year's world championship wearing a hijab.
That is forced to wear, no choice, yet the guardian supports both stances. It supports people who wear the burkini and it supports forced hijab in Iran.
Just sayin.
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Wow. What do you think happened to the srtictly result. In the beginning it was embroiled in the never far away rascism thing as black people were being voted off.
First it was....
Strictly Come Dancing embroiled in race row after Tameka Empson becomes second black celeb to be kicked off show after Melvin Odoom voted off.
then
Strictly race row continues after Naga Munchetty is fourth contestant to leave the competition.
and
Greg Rutherford: We can't rule out Strictly vote being racist
Can we rule the racism thing out now, or is it possible the same uneducated people who voted for Brexit got mixed up (again) and voted the wrong way. Perhaps when they were voting for the black celeb, they thought it was for an elimination. Should there be a re-run?
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Wilfrid Laurier University Grad Student Association blasted for terminating café operator over help wanted ad
Cafe forced to close and 11 people out of work as young people have lost the ability to detect humour. Wilfrid Laurier University Grad Student Association need to grow up.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/wilfrid-laurier-university-gsa-cafe-veritas-contract-1.3900665
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Cafe forced to close and 11 people out of work as young people have lost the ability to detect humour. Wilfrid Laurier University Grad Student Association need to grow up.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/wilfrid-laurier-university-gsa-cafe-veritas-contract-1.3900665
Ha ha. He is being terminated through a clause in his contract "not to injure the reputation of the Wilfrid Laurier University Grad Student Association". Perhaps those who did the terminating need to take a long hard look in the mirror.