Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Humph Warden Bennett on June 10, 2016, 07:00:42 AM

Title: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Humph Warden Bennett on June 10, 2016, 07:00:42 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bestiality-legal-canada-supreme-court-a7073196.html
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Shaker on June 10, 2016, 08:21:21 AM
Holy cow.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Harrowby Hall on June 10, 2016, 08:36:42 AM
I had thought that Canada was a Common Law country, but the article uses the term Criminal Code. If Canada does have a Codified Criminal Law system (similar to the Napoleonic Code of France and some other European countries) then it means that in the absence of a defined crime in the Code, that a crime hasn't been committed.

In English Law, judges have the ability to behave more flexibly since not only legislation exists but also legal precedence.

....................................

Addition - for clarity (perhaps)

In a codified legal environment: if it isn't in the book it doesn't happen. This is an instance where the drafters of the legislation did not envision this particular behaviour. They defined the proposed criminal behaviour so tightly that variations of the behaviour were not included in the offence.

There is a parallel situation in English divorce law (civil law). Same sex sexual behaviour is not adultery since adultery is specifically defined as the penetration of a vagina by a penis when one of the people involved is married - but not to the other.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Humph Warden Bennett on June 10, 2016, 12:31:12 PM
This seems a bit bizarre to say the least. I thought that a non Homo Sapiens animal is incapable of giving consent?
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Gordon on June 10, 2016, 12:48:06 PM
Moderator:

Please note that the title of this thread, and its posts to date, has been amended. As a consequence several posts that related to the previous title, but not to the key link in the OP, have been removed given the change of emphasis.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 10, 2016, 12:49:53 PM
This seems a bit bizarre to say the least. I thought that a non Homo Sapiens animal is incapable of giving consent?
For a start your post seems to imply all legal systems have this written into them. Secondly the concept of consent is not a simple thing that is the same in legal systems.

However, the issue in the case from the summary is not about consent but about what sex is. To construct a theoretical case, say there was someone who got sexually excited by a dog licking their face, would they be committing bestiality if the neighbour's dog linked their face?

And that's what it appears was decided here. For bestiality to take place, penetration is the definition of sex. One of the reasons why there wa quite a strict definition was probably that we often 'milk' animals of their sperm for breeding.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Brownie on June 10, 2016, 02:36:52 PM
Seems pervy to me, even without any penetration.  The animals, presumably, would have no choice in the matter!  I suppose some would say they ''like it'' but if non-penetrable sexual acts were performed on human beings without their consent, it would still be illegal even if they derived some basic sort of pleasure out of them.  It's abuse.

Ugh.  Still I suppose the judge didn't mean it quite as it was reported and for the man who was prosecuted for sexually abusing stepdaughters, it was a relatively minor crime in the scheme of things;  as he would be given a stiff sentence anyway there wouldn't be much point in adding to it, never mind having to work out how long to give him.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 10, 2016, 03:26:44 PM
Seeming perverse isn't a reason for to it be illegal though. As said this is not about consent or abuse, it's about what is sex? That's what the specific decision is in the case.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: floo on June 10, 2016, 04:18:45 PM
An animal is unable to give consent!
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Brownie on June 10, 2016, 04:24:03 PM
Precisely floo!  I wasn't saying that ''being pervy'' in my opinion,was a reason for making bestiality illegal.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 10, 2016, 04:57:56 PM
Precisely floo!  I wasn't saying that ''being pervy'' in my opinion,was a reason for making bestiality illegal.
The point still being that consent is not the issue here the definition of sex in terms of bestiality is. The action is not defined as sex with animals according to the brief summary, ergo consent is not considered.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 10, 2016, 04:59:47 PM
As ever in such cases I find people who eat slaughtered meat worrying about the consent given by an animal licking peanut butter off of genitalia somewhat bizarre.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Shaker on June 10, 2016, 05:01:07 PM
Smooth or crunchy?
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 10, 2016, 05:17:55 PM
Pervert, therefore crunchy
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: bluehillside Retd. on June 10, 2016, 06:37:21 PM
Quote
Pervert, therefore crunchy

No crunchy is fine - peanut butter with Nutella on the other hand would be perv central, and that's a medical fact.

Re the OP, I did see a chicken look a bit funny at me in Aldi the other day - should I seek help? (Pretty sure it wasn't Canadian though.)
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Harrowby Hall on June 10, 2016, 08:04:06 PM

Quote
The point still being that consent is not the issue here the definition of sex in terms of bestiality is. The action is not defined as sex with animals according to the brief summary, ergo consent is not considered.

Exactly. And as I said earlier:

Quote
in the absence of a defined crime in the Code, that a crime hasn't been committed.

It does not matter how much any of you dislike this activity ... how perverted or disgusting you may find it ... under the Canadian criminal code, it is not illegal. Perhaps the code should be changed to ensure that in future animals give consent.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Owlswing on June 11, 2016, 07:11:14 AM
Exactly. And as I said earlier:

It does not matter how much any of you dislike this activity ... how perverted or disgusting you may find it ... under the Canadian criminal code, it is not illegal. Perhaps the code should be changed to ensure that in future animals give consent.

As long as the Code defines, with sufficient detail, exactly how the animal shows its consent.

More years ago than I care to think about a woman in Australia's Northern Territory was similarly charged after getting her dog to perform cunnilingus on her.

She said that the dog really liked performing this on her and she was asked how she knew that the dog liked to perform for her; she answered that she stripped off, got on her hands and knees and the dog went for it, the only problem she had was preventing the dog actually mounting her as that would have been obscene.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 11, 2016, 07:25:05 AM
As long as the Code defines, with sufficient detail, exactly how the animal shows its consent.
Except, as already pointed out,  it isn't seen in the summary as an issue of consent from the animal, it's a question of what is defined as bestiality. There is no notion of consent here.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Brownie on June 11, 2016, 07:54:32 AM
I have no answers to any of this  :D!
Yesterday I had a look on the 'net to see if I could find any and you'd be surprised how much stuff dealing with the ethics of bestiality is out there.  Quite an eye opener.  I thought of copying a link for here but there were too many to choose from.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Harrowby Hall on June 11, 2016, 08:38:33 AM

Quote
As long as the Code defines, with sufficient detail, exactly how the animal shows its consent.

Except, as already pointed out,  it isn't seen in the summary as an issue of consent from the animal, it's a question of what is defined as bestiality. There is no notion of consent here.

Oh dear. I was attempting to be sarcastic.
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 11, 2016, 08:53:36 AM
I hadn't read your post properly but saw the sarcasm. I realise now I was probably doing Owlswing a disservice and where I thought he missed, he actually got it, so apologies to Owlswing
Title: Re: Canadian Judge ok's bestiality (in some cirumstances)
Post by: Owlswing on June 11, 2016, 08:55:49 AM
I hadn't read your post properly but saw the sarcasm. I realise now I was probably doing Owlswing a disservice and where I thought he missed, he actually got it, so apologies to Owlswing

Accepted