Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on June 25, 2016, 01:47:41 PM
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The EU foreign ministers are about
Nicola Sturgeon is about
Cameron is sitting looking at a car park in Cleethorpes.......
Where's Boris and Gove?
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Boris:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1340229/boris-johnson-pictured-today-as-he-prepares-bid-to-replace-david-cameron/
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Saw that.......He has the look of someone who has placed a huge turd on the doorstep and is about to run off.
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Where's George?
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Where's George?
He may well be busy analysing the impact of this vote on the British economy.
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The EU foreign ministers are about
Nicola Sturgeon is about
Cameron is sitting looking at a car park in Cleethorpes.......
Where's Boris and Gove?
We are seeing all those who have nothing to do but strut about posturing like vacant....
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I think the real fallout from this referendum will be the internal battle in the Tory party for a new leader. The bitterness that was unleashed during it is now brewing to stop Boris from becoming PM. We be leaderless for some while or end up with a pro-EU leaders such as May.
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I think the real fallout from this referendum will be the internal battle in the Tory party for a new leader. The bitterness that was unleashed during it is now brewing to stop Boris from becoming PM. We be leaderless for some while or end up with a pro-EU leaders such as May.
The real fallout is the economy. Eventually the glow from Independence day is going to give way to the fact that yet again working people will be asked to sacrifice jobs and homes for yet another experiment by public schoolboys.
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The real fallout is the economy. Eventually the glow from Independence day is going to give way to the fact that yet again working people will be asked to sacrifice jobs and homes for yet another experiment by public schoolboys.
But that is true of the EU, look at how Greek has been treated. It is all the same project, the Neo-Liberal one.
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But that is true of the EU, look at how Greek has been treated. It is all the same project, the Neo-Liberal one.
I'm afraid it was tax avoidance which stuffed Greece so in a way self inflicted.
But not as self inflicted as the UK being richer than France at 10 o'clock PM
and poorer than it 12 hours later.
Again Jack, What's the plan?
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The real fallout is the economy. Eventually the glow from Independence day is going to give way to the fact that yet again working people will be asked to sacrifice jobs and homes for yet another experiment by public schoolboys.
Vlad, I hadn't realised that Gisela Stuart and Peter Cruddas, two of the key figures in the Vote Leave group, attended public schools.
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Who is Peter Cruddas?
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I think the real fallout from this referendum will be the internal battle in the Tory party for a new leader. The bitterness that was unleashed during it is now brewing to stop Boris from becoming PM. We be leaderless for some while or end up with a pro-EU leaders such as May.
I suspect that several of the 'Leavers' may decide to leave the party, leaving it to those who wanted to remain in the EU.
I notice that the petition for a re-run has passed 2.4 million in little over 36 hours. What would happen if the number signing it reached more than the number of voters who voted for Brexit? ;)
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Peter Cruddas is what used to be called a "yuppy". He comes from an East End working class background and has done extremely well for himself in banking and trading. Loadsa money! He is also a philanthropist and founded an organisation to help disadvantaged young people. Decent bloke by all accounts, must be near enough my age.
Gisela Stuart is a German lady who originally came here to further her studies. I don't know much about her.
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I suspect that several of the 'Leavers' may decide to leave the party, leaving it to those who wanted to remain in the EU.
But they won. The Leavers are in the ascendant and no Remainer is going to be credible as the PM to steer us out of the EU.
I notice that the petition for a re-run has passed 2.4 million in little over 36 hours. What would happen if the number signing it reached more than the number of voters who voted for Brexit? ;)
I was wondering that too. Of course, if it does get that high, we'd have to call "fix" because there aren't that many Remainers with Internet access to sign a petition.
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I was out with friends last night and we got to discussing politics, and we realised that the left wing of the Tory party (largely remainders) and the right wing of Labour had more in common with each other than either had with the rest of their own party, in fact on paper, they would be the largest party.
Interesting thought.
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I was out with friends last night and we got to discussing politics, and we realised that the left wing of the Tory party (largely remainders) and the right wing of Labour had more in common with each other than either had with the rest of their own party, in fact on paper, they would be the largest party.
Interesting thought.
And our voting system - first past the post - reinforces partisan tribalism rather than political viewpoint. Proportion representation may well create new parties which more accurately reflect the political views of people generally than do the two paleolithic tribal entities we call political parties
Tony Blair made Labour electable by taking it to the middle ground. He is now reviled because of the wet dreams he had for G W Bush (and their consequences) .
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Vlad, I hadn't realised that Gisela Stuart and Peter Cruddas, two of the key figures in the Vote Leave group, attended public schools.
They are merely Igors to Johnsons Dr Frankenstein.
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They are merely Igors to Johnsons Dr Frankenstein.
But they are still the power behind the throne - after all, Johnson only joined Vote Leave some weeks after it had been set up.
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But they won. The Leavers are in the ascendant and no Remainer is going to be credible as the PM to steer us out of the EU.
I didn't say that a remainer could be a credible PM - just that I suspect that the make up of the Tory - and possibly the Labour - parties will change over the next few months.
I was wondering that too. Of course, if it does get that high, we'd have to call "fix" because there aren't that many Remainers with Internet access to sign a petition.
But you don't need to have voted in the referendum to have access to the petition. There will have been young people - and old people - who have access to the internet who (for whatever reason didn't vote) who could sign the petition. After all, only 33-odd million actually voted to leave - what about the other 7 0r 8 million who were eligible/signed up to vote but chose not to.
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I think of course, that like Cameron, Gove and Johnson will sit this one out and let chaos rule in the country.
How do you then get a country back from chaos?
Government of National unity?
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Nick Cohen
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars
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My guess is Boris is shitting himself right now because in his heart of hearts he never expected this to happen. He wanted a close enough contest to destabilise Cameron and then for him to take over. His plan never included leaving.
And just to echo the currently rather wonderful Vlad on this issue.
What is the fucking plan?
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Dear World, ( because I think the world wants to know )
Vlad is asking, Trent is asking, Gonnagle is asking,
What is the fucking plan? I made it purple, the colour I associate with rage.
And just as a aside, old Blue and his Leprechauns, everytime I look at Andrew Neil ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
PS: I think Trent is right about Boris.
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I read a comment this morning on Facebook that makes the case that Cameron has thoroughly stitched up his successor and the fact that Johnson is moping around like a man who realizes he has just shat himself shows that he knows it.
If the next PM presses the article 50 button they will go down in history as the person who destroyed the UK (as in Scotland leaves not as in economic armageddon). None of the Leavers want that, ironically. If they don't press the button, they will be destroyed for going against the will of the people.
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When I was looking Boris up on Wiki, I came across the names of his kids, poor souls! :(
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I read a comment this morning on Facebook that makes the case that Cameron has thoroughly stitched up his successor and the fact that Johnson is moping around like a man who realizes he has just shat himself shows that he knows it.
If the next PM presses the article 50 button they will go down in history as the person who destroyed the UK (as in Scotland leaves not as in economic armageddon). None of the Leavers want that, ironically. If they don't press the button, they will be destroyed for going against the will of the people.
And a great number of those people who voted for Brexit already feel that they were gravely misled by the Brexiteers - now that they realise that 'Project Fear' was simply stating the facts.
And I suspect a most of the rest of them will be feeling pretty bitter once they realise that there will be no significant change in EU migration.
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When I was looking Boris up on Wiki, I came across the names of his kids, poor souls! :(
I shall have to look those up floo, I've not heard them. People often do give their kids funny names, or they seem funny to us. Sarah Palin's are called Trig, Track and Willow from what I remember! Maybe in the world that Boris's children inhabit, their names are not considered so bizarre.
Later: I looked them up! Milo Arthur Johnson, Lara Lettice Johnson, Theodore Apollo Johnson, Cassia Peaches Johnson.
I think they are charming names! Milo, Lara, Theo and Cass sound fine. Lettice, Apollo and Peaches are middle names. I didn't know he had four kids.
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And a great number of those people who voted for Brexit already feel that they were gravely misled by the Brexiteers - now that they realise that 'Project Fear' was simply stating the facts.
And I suspect a most of the rest of them will be feeling pretty bitter once they realise that there will be no significant change in EU migration.
facts like I won't resign immediately and will activate Article 50 immediately from Cameron? Or i'll have an emergency budget from Osborne?
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Dear Forum,
Just for the record and I will post this on all the threads concerning Brexit, why? It has to be shouted loud and clear.
This whole debacle, this absolute mess, this catastrophe lies at the feet of the Conservative Party, this EU Referendum was a party political stunt, it never had the thoughts and wishes of the people of Great Britain uppermost.
We now have a nation divided, the Scots are shouting Independence, Northern Ireland are also talking about joining the Republic and both those countries are now wondering about border controls.
Our Capital city ( London ) voted overwhelmingly to remain the rest of England voted to exit, we now have a nation totally divided, our nation is in turmoil because of Tory infighting.
Our Prime Minister ( a Tory ) has washed his hands of the whole mess, we are now left with Tories who don’t have a clue about a way forward.
I have often said that ( long before we even considered a EU Referendum ) the Tory party is the most unchristian, unBritish party we have.
Time for the Conservative Party to disband, give them their marching orders, we a fed up with a party that plays politics, that plays with the life’s of every citizen of Great Britain, they have forfeited the right to stand in our House of Commons, the only thing that mattered to a Tory was the Conservative Party the rights of a British citizen came second, they are a boil on the backside of Great Britain, time to lance that boil.
Gonnagle.
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facts like I won't resign immediately and will activate Article 50 immediately from Cameron? Or i'll have an emergency budget from Osborne?
Was 'resigning' ever considered a threat?
I wouldn't put money on there not being an emergency budget - he didn't rule it out.
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Anybody got a Hansard Handy? Was Boris DePfeffel in the house today? If not where's Boretc.
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I'm afraid it was tax avoidance which stuffed Greece so in a way self inflicted.
But not as self inflicted as the UK being richer than France at 10 o'clock PM
and poorer than it 12 hours later.
Again Jack, What's the plan?
What did Greece was joining the Euro.
Teething problems, Vlad, we'll be richer than France soon enough.
Plan? You want a plan. I think they are banking on serendipity and just winging it. :D
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I suspect that several of the 'Leavers' may decide to leave the party, leaving it to those who wanted to remain in the EU.
I think if a pro-EU Tory became PM I think that would really put the cat amongst the pigeons. But generally I think they will stay.
I notice that the petition for a re-run has passed 2.4 million in little over 36 hours. What would happen if the number signing it reached more than the number of voters who voted for Brexit? ;)
Just bad losers. I can't see the point of it.
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I was out with friends last night and we got to discussing politics, and we realised that the left wing of the Tory party (largely remainders) and the right wing of Labour had more in common with each other than either had with the rest of their own party, in fact on paper, they would be the largest party.
Interesting thought.
That's obvious, Blair won by being Tory in Red clothes.
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My guess is Boris is shitting himself right now because in his heart of hearts he never expected this to happen. He wanted a close enough contest to destabilise Cameron and then for him to take over. His plan never included leaving.
And just to echo the currently rather wonderful Vlad on this issue.
What is the fucking plan?
Unforeseen consequence - Cameron calls referendum to save his party and PM-ship, hoping next government will be a coalition so blocking the referendum vote. Boris wins referendum but only needing to lose to get his hands on the PM-ship. Power hungry people going in where only greedy fools jump in.
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Dear World, ( because I think the world wants to know )
Vlad is asking, Trent is asking, Gonnagle is asking,
What is the fucking plan? I made it purple, the colour I associate with rage.
And just as a aside, old Blue and his Leprechauns, everytime I look at Andrew Neil ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
PS: I think Trent is right about Boris.
And there's your answer - purple is the colour of UKIP!!!! ;D
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What did Greece was joining the Euro.
Teething problems, Vlad, we'll be richer than France soon enough.
Let's hope it's sooner than later since the argument that ''they have to remember they are trading with the fifth largest economy'' is yet another Brexit promise which has unravelled.
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Let's hope it's sooner than later since the argument that ''they have to remember they are trading with the fifth largest economy'' is yet another Brexit promise which has unravelled.
Well no it's not, the markets are calming down and things will generally do so as they see not much has changed.
Countries world wide are starting to queue up to make trade deals with us.
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Well no it's not, the markets are calming down and things will generally do so as they see not much has changed.
Countries world wide are starting to queue up to make trade deals with us.
For what? Financial services?
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For what? Financial services?
Better brothels.
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Better brothels.
Yes....I think the ultimate aim of the Right Wing project is cheap labour and cheap shags.
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My understanding is that Boris DePfeffel Johnson is now so absent they are using library pictures of him.
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For what? Financial services?
I don't know ask them. What ever we have and they need and what ever they have and we need. That's trade.
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....Boris been in?
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Let's hope it's sooner than later since the argument that ''they have to remember they are trading with the fifth largest economy'' is yet another Brexit promise which has unravelled.
And to what extent is Britain's having 'the fifth largest economy' something to do with our being members of the EU?
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Unforeseen consequence - Cameron calls referendum to save his party and PM-ship, hoping next government will be a coalition so blocking the referendum vote. Boris wins referendum but only needing to lose to get his hands on the PM-ship. Power hungry people going in where only greedy fools jump in.
I think the f'g plan is the extricate ourselves from the EU. Just what that will involve is an unknown quantity as nothing like this has happened before. The Vote Leave campaign don't appear to have done their homework for the result they wanted - whilst Cameron seems to have had a plan for his purposes. As for the oft-repeated accusations about Conservative in-fighting, it seems to me that the fault lies no less at the feet of Labour who have purposefully ignored and avoided the split on the EU within their membership.
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Seems like Boris might have a competitor that he thought of as being his side-kick.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36671336
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Seems like Boris might have a competitor that he thought of as being his side-kick.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36671336
The loathsome Gove, that's all we need!
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What did Greece was joining the Euro.
No, what did Greece was joining the Euro and cooking the books. The fundamental problem was massive tax avoidance and lying to themselves about the state of their economy. Once this was found out, the fact of being in the Euro prevented them from doing anything to about it.
Please stop conflating the EU with the Euro. The latter was definitely a bad idea. The former is not.
Teething problems, Vlad, we'll be richer than France soon enough.
We already were richer than France.
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And there's your answer - purple is the colour of UKIP!!!! ;D
Because it's full of bell ends.
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When Boris announced he wasn't going to stand it felt like I had just had a satisfying shit and got rid of something which didn't agree with me.
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:D ;D Vlad.
Boris said, regarding the next PM: ''The person cannot be me''.
The world and his wife are attributing all sorts of reasons why, but I think that statement sums up his reason well enough. Other things/people may have contributed to the decision but I've no doubt the idea of being PM didn't sit well with him. So imo he's made the right decision regardless of how much of an explosion Michael Heseltine and others are making.
I quite like Teresa May and Stephen Crabbe, from what I know of them. Teresa May is more familiar to me than Mr Crabbe - but it's not up to me and I'm not a Tory so have no say anyway. as long as it's not somebody too sinister, it doesn't bother me personally.
Can't wait for QT tonight. I've booked me seat in front of the telly for 10.45. It's from Preston so there will be a robust audience, mainly Brexiters. The panel is (subject to last minute changes I suppose):
Conservative education minister Sam Gyimah MP, Labour's shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry MP, Ukip's Douglas Carswell MP, comedian Russell Kane and the Times columnist Melanie Phillips.
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Boris said, regarding the next PM: ''The person cannot be me''.
The world and his wife are attributing all sorts of reasons why, but I think that statement sums up his reason well enough. Other things/people may have contributed to the decision but I've no doubt the idea of being PM didn't sit well with him. So imo he's made the right decision regardless of how much of an explosion Michael Heseltine and others are making.
If only he had been more thoughtful when he first made his decision to back Leave in order to further his political ambition.
He's walking away because he knows he is finished. Triggering article 50 will lead to the break up of the UK and would be disaster for the Conservative leader who makes it happen.
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A Dead Statesman
I could not dig; I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?
Rudyard Kipling
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That's a very moving poem NS. But....nobody has died because Boris has left the leadership contest, nor because of his Brexit stance.
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Dear Sane,
Ah Kipling!!
Mine angry and defrauded young?
Nothing new under the sun, it is our young who will have to pick up the pieces, when will we ever learn. :(
One for Jeremy Corbyn.
The bits in bold especially.
IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
No not Gonnagle, Kipling. ;) ;)
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That's a very moving poem NS. But....nobody has died because Boris has left the leadership contest, nor because of his Brexit stance.
It's called a metaphor - he isn't dead either
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I think for Boris the great Kipling mis-quotation is more appropriate:
"IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs , you obviously don't know what is going on."
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A Dead Statesman
I could not dig; I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?
Rudyard Kipling
Very good poem, and quite apt. I keep thinking of Shakespeare as well, a combination of Julius Caesar and Macbeth, backstabbing, weak leaders, hubris, buffoonery. But at least they had a sort of grandeur - here we have a bunch of second-rate gangsters, whipping up the mob, and then trying to placate them. I knew Boris was doomed when I saw Zac Goldsmith in the room. (Oh, I forgot Mrs Mcgove).
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I think the f'g plan is the extricate ourselves from the EU. Just what that will involve is an unknown quantity as nothing like this has happened before. The Vote Leave campaign don't appear to have done their homework for the result they wanted - whilst Cameron seems to have had a plan for his purposes. As for the oft-repeated accusations about Conservative in-fighting, it seems to me that the fault lies no less at the feet of Labour who have purposefully ignored and avoided the split on the EU within their membership.
They had no need to they weren't in power. And that is where the referendum failed. They should have been given a mandate to implement Brexit in the event of them winning substantially - which they did with 17 million votes. The Conservatives got 11 million votes in 2015.
In my view that mandate and manifesto task should have gone to UKIP and other long standing anti-EU peoples. Then we wouldn't have this farce where we don't know when Art 50 is going to be triggered and people wondering what's going to happen next.
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They had no need to they weren't in power. And that is where the referendum failed. They should have been given a mandate to implement Brexit in the event of them winning substantially - which they did with 17 million votes. The Conservatives got 11 million votes in 2015.
In my view that mandate and manifesto task should have gone to UKIP and other long standing anti-EU peoples. Then we wouldn't have this farce where we don't know when Art 50 is going to be triggered and people wondering what's going to happen next.
which would be a completely different referendum so you cannot claim the result as backing it. And that is leaving aside that it's constitutionally ludicrous.
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They should have been given a mandate to implement Brexit ...
Which version of Brexit - there are loads, and we can only pick one and no single Brexit plan has a mandate.
You voted leave (I presume :o). Are you in favour of the EEA version of Brexit, as per Norway - access to single market, free movement of labour, still net contributor to the EU, bound by approx. 90% of the EU regulations etc etc.
This is one version of Brexit (quote possibly the one we will end up with). Is this the version you voted for JK?
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Good points from Prof. D. It reminds me that there is no such thing as Christianity, but only Christianities. So there are different versions of Brexit. Apparently, Boris in his latest Telegraph column was veering back to a more liberal view of it, and this alarmed hard Brexit people. Quote, 'that's not the Brexit I voted for'.
Another point - we didn't vote on immigration, or trade deals, or anything specific, so people have been filling in the gaps in different ways.
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Good points from Prof. D. It reminds me that there is no such thing as Christianity, but only Christianities. So there are different versions of Brexit. Apparently, Boris in his latest Telegraph column was veering back to a more liberal view of it, and this alarmed hard Brexit people. Quote, 'that's not the Brexit I voted for'.
Another point - we didn't vote on immigration, or trade deals, or anything specific, so people have been filling in the gaps in different ways.
Ah yes but nothing is enshrined in scripture (The ballot paper).
I think Bricksitters were expecting some kind of Pentecost at the St Ermin Hotel.
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Which version of Brexit - there are loads, and we can only pick one and no single Brexit plan has a mandate.
You voted leave (I presume :o). Are you in favour of the EEA version of Brexit, as per Norway - access to single market, free movement of labour, still net contributor to the EU, bound by approx. 90% of the EU regulations etc etc.
This is one version of Brexit (quote possibly the one we will end up with). Is this the version you voted for JK?
I'd be interested to know how many Brexit voters would have voted for Brexit if they had realised that the version we are likely to get is the Norway model.
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I'd be interested to know how many Brexit voters would have voted for Brexit if they had realised that the version we are likely to get is the Norway model.
No idea, and thats the problem - the referendum asked what people were against (the EU) it didn't ask people what they were for, unless it was the EU.
And actually that's the real issue for Leavers and mandate - the 52% is the high water mark but it united people in what they were against. As soon as you start to propose actual post-Brexit models that 52% will schism - between the free market libertarians, the 'no foreigners here mate' and the 'UK should rule itself' factions. There is no model that can possibly please all because they are mutually incompatible in the real world.
So mandate and consensus will end up coalescing around the plan which is acceptable to remainers (or perhaps least unacceptable), because thats the only way to build back to a majority from the schism. And in reality the only option is EEA.
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Which version of Brexit - there are loads, and we can only pick one and no single Brexit plan has a mandate.
You voted leave (I presume :o). Are you in favour of the EEA version of Brexit, as per Norway - access to single market, free movement of labour, still net contributor to the EU, bound by approx. 90% of the EU regulations etc etc.
This is one version of Brexit (quote possibly the one we will end up with). Is this the version you voted for JK?
I explained that in my post. UKIP + others would lead the leave campaign and prepare a manifesto on which the people would vote. And on winning they would carryout the negotiations.
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Good points from Prof. D. It reminds me that there is no such thing as Christianity, but only Christianities. So there are different versions of Brexit. Apparently, Boris in his latest Telegraph column was veering back to a more liberal view of it, and this alarmed hard Brexit people. Quote, 'that's not the Brexit I voted for'.
Another point - we didn't vote on immigration, or trade deals, or anything specific, so people have been filling in the gaps in different ways.
We voted to leave to control things ourselves.
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I explained that in my post. UKIP + others would lead the leave campaign and prepare a manifesto on which the people would vote. And on winning they would carryout the negotiations.
and then you woke up
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I explained that in my post. UKIP + others would lead the leave campaign and prepare a manifesto on which the people would vote. And on winning they would carryout the negotiations.
What mandate does Numpty Nigel have to negotiate on, say, my behalf?
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No idea, and thats the problem - the referendum asked what people were against (the EU) it didn't ask people what they were for, unless it was the EU.
And actually that's the real issue for Leavers and mandate - the 52% is the high water mark but it united people in what they were against. As soon as you start to propose actual post-Brexit models that 52% will schism - between the free market libertarians, the 'no foreigners here mate' and the 'UK should rule itself' factions. There is no model that can possibly please all because they are mutually incompatible in the real world.
So mandate and consensus will end up coalescing around the plan which is acceptable to remainers (or perhaps least unacceptable), because thats the only way to build back to a majority from the schism. And in reality the only option is EEA.
Completely agree and, in retrospect, it is shameful that nobody, not the Leavers, not the Remainers, not the media addressed this issue properly in the run up to the vote.
The Norway type deal will probably get the nod because, if ignoring the referendum is not an option, at least 48% of the people would take that one. Everyone's a loser, baby.
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No idea, and thats the problem - the referendum asked what people were against (the EU) it didn't ask people what they were for, unless it was the EU.
It did not ask that. It asked if you wanted to leave the EU. 17 million said yes. Therefore, leave we must do.
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I explained that in my post. UKIP + others would lead the leave campaign and prepare a manifesto on which the people would vote.
Well UKIP didn't lead the leave campaign and they have no manifesto. Perhaps you should have been more forthright.
And on winning they would carryout the negotiations.
I wouldn't put Farage in charge of the Christmas card list. Apart from the fact that he is a mendacious fraud, everybody in continental Europe hates him. I mean he is totally despised.
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and then you woke up
You do come out with some incomprehensible turd churning rubbish.
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We voted to leave to control things ourselves.
When the fuck is somebody going to take control?
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What mandate does Numpty Nigel have to negotiate on, say, my behalf?
The referendum wasn't for you, you narcissistic Scottish twit. It was for the UK. My post was about how the referendum should have been conducted.
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You do come out with some incomprehensible turd churning rubbish.
simply pointing out that your position was a dream and not reality. That you think you can give a mandate against the govt to a party with 1 MP is charmingly stupid.
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The referendum wasn't for you, you narcissistic Scottish twit. It was for the UK.
For the moment, Scotland is in the UK, twit.
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The referendum wasn't for you, you narcissistic Scottish twit. It was for the UK. My post was about how the referendum should have been conducted.
And wasn't, and had no chance of being. How come you and 'brilliant' Nigel failed so badly?
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Well UKIP didn't lead the leave campaign and they have no manifesto. Perhaps you should have been more forthright.
I wouldn't put Farage in charge of the Christmas card list. Apart from the fact that he is a mendacious fraud, everybody in continental Europe hates him. I mean he is totally despised.
It is so sad how the remainers are such bad losers. Before the result they were asking the leavers if they would accept the result and drop their objections (based on the predictions that they would win). Now they are all crying like little children, whining for their mummies.
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When the fuck is somebody going to take control?
Well if everybody agrees then I nominate Farage and co.
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simply pointing out that your position was a dream and not reality. That you think you can give a mandate against the govt to a party with 1 MP is charmingly stupid.
That was not what I said. All the top long term leavers would be in the term. But as UKIP had been banging this drum for decades they should have been the ones setting out the manifesto for the leave term and then implementing it should they have won on it.
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The referendum wasn't for you, you narcissistic Scottish twit. It was for the UK. My post was about how the referendum should have been conducted.
I'll take that as a compliment.
So, I'll ask again, since you seem to think UKIP has a role to play where is their mandate to do so on behalf of Scotland, taking into account the result here. If UKIP were so clued up they would have anticipated the result from Scotland, which is hardly a surprise, so what is their strategy regarding Scotland?.
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For the moment, Scotland is in the UK, twit.
But you asked for and about yourself. You were on the losing side, suck it up!!!
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It is so sad how the remainers are such bad losers.
When you see your country in self destruct mode, you tend not to be happy about it.
Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.
Before the result they were asking the leavers if they would accept the result and drop their objections (based on the predictions that they would win). Now they are all crying like little children, whining for their mummies.
Nobody expected Nigel to lie down and take it if Remain won. Your own hero said it would be "unfinished business".
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017
So why are you not campaigning for another referendum? Your own leader said you should do so in these circumstances.
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Well if everybody agrees then I nominate Farage and co.
I'd like to nominate Farage and co to spend some time at Her Majesty's pleasure.
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That was not what I said. All the top long term leavers would be in the term. But as UKIP had been banging this drum for decades they should have been the ones setting out the manifesto for the leave term and then implementing it should they have won on it.
Which is not how govt or referendums work in this country, and they never will.
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But you asked for and about yourself. You were on the losing side, suck it up!!!
No I didn't. The closest anybody came to asking "for themselves" was Gordon. Twit.
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And wasn't, and had no chance of being. How come you and 'brilliant' Nigel failed so badly?
How do you mean, failed?
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When the fuck is somebody going to take control?
He's called Mark Carney.
Funny isn't it - straight after we have apparently just 'taken back control' we have the most acute lack of leadership and control in government and the biggest constitutional crisis we've seen for decades.
Hmm if that's 'control' I'd prefer not to have it, thanks very much.
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He's called Mark Carney.
Funny isn't it - straight after we have apparently just 'taken back control' we have the most acute lack of leadership and control in government and the biggest constitutional crisis we've seen for decades.
Hmm if that's 'control' I'd prefer not to have it, thanks very much.
I understand Barack Obama is going to be a free agent soon.
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How do you mean, failed?
you have stated what the referendum should have done with your little fantasy of UKIP getting a significant say in the negotiations. Was never going to happen so in that sense it's a failure.
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I'll take that as a compliment.
I quit understand, you haven't got much else at the moment.
So, I'll ask again, since you seem to think UKIP has a role to play where is their mandate to do so on behalf of Scotland, taking into account the result here. If UKIP were so clued up they would have anticipated the result from Scotland, which is hardly a surprise, so what is their strategy regarding Scotland?.
It wasn't about Scotland you dipstick, it was about the UK!!! This has really hit you hard you poor old soul.
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I quit understand, you haven't got much else at the moment.
It wasn't about Scotland you dipstick, it was about the UK!!!
Of which Scotland is a part, twit. Of course, if your munificent leader takes control, that is a state of affairs that won't last for long.
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No I didn't. The closest anybody came to asking "for themselves" was Gordon. Twit.
I was simply asking, using myself as an example, on what basis Numpty Nigel/Ukip have any form of mandate to negotiate on my behalf. They have one Westminster MP who doesn't represent a Scottish seat, and they have precisely no seats in Holyrood.
So while I can see that they are irritatingly noisy, and as a result get more attention than they merit (but not so much here in Scotland), on what basis have they any mandate to negotiate on any basis that includes by default (for now) Scotland.
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I quit understand, you haven't got much else at the moment.
It wasn't about Scotland you dipstick, it was about the UK!!! This has really hit you hard you poor old soul.
and it wasn't about givihg mandates to UKIP, I would suggest that you are moaning about the result but I'm currently not sure if you understood it.
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When you see your country in self destruct mode, you tend not to be happy about it.
Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.
Nobody expected Nigel to lie down and take it if Remain won. Your own hero said it would be "unfinished business".
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017
So why are you not campaigning for another referendum? Your own leader said you should do so in these circumstances.
I was talking about nearly all remainers. You hear them in the media whining like dogs who have been castrated.
As for your last bit, where did he say that? We won.
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I'd like to nominate Farage and co to spend some time at Her Majesty's pleasure.
I think Buckingham Palace is full at the moment.
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Which is not how govt or referendums work in this country, and they never will.
But for something as critical and crucial as this it should have done because now we have this farce where the wankers in the Commons are now trying to spin up some Brexit.
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It wasn't about Scotland you dipstick, it was about the UK!!! This has really hit you hard you poor old soul.
Of course it is, for as long as Scotland is part of the UK. The reality is that UKIP cannot represent the position of Scotland in any dealings with the EU, since apart from the idiot Coburn who is an MEP they have no Scottish representation in either Westminster or Holyrood.
So, I'll ask again, what mandate does UKIP have to negotiate Brexit (which removes the idiot Coburn when it happens) on behalf of Scotland? I suspect you are conflating any anti-European sentiment from anywhere as being implicit support for UKIP - and yet we don't have any UKIP MSPs or MPs.
When this madness is resolved I expect UKIP will be history.
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No I didn't. The closest anybody came to asking "for themselves" was Gordon. Twit.
You're still whining!!! ;D
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He's called Mark Carney.
Funny isn't it - straight after we have apparently just 'taken back control' we have the most acute lack of leadership and control in government and the biggest constitutional crisis we've seen for decades.
Hmm if that's 'control' I'd prefer not to have it, thanks very much.
Hey, Moderator: content removed, we are still in the EU.
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But for something as critical and crucial as this it should have done because now we have this farce where the wankers in the Commons are now trying to spin up some Brexit.
and yet it was never going to happen. The referendum is and always have been advisory as Parliament is sovereign. That you are stinging that it should be different just underlines your failure of comprehension. I cannot understand why you think it's OK for you to whinge about the way the referendum was held but not for others. You seem to not realise quite how hypocritical this comes across, Though I suspect that's because of your lack of self awareness.
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you have stated what the referendum should have done with your little fantasy of UKIP getting a significant say in the negotiations. Was never going to happen so in that sense it's a failure.
The referendum never was never a legal affair, not legally binding.
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and it wasn't about givihg mandates to UKIP, I would suggest that you are moaning about the result but I'm currently not sure if you understood it.
What I'm saying in effect is that it should have been legally binding, and that each side should have manned a term to carry out their manifesto pledges.
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As for your last bit, where did he say that? We won.
I posted the link to the story, twit. It was in the Daily Mirror on May 17.
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That's nice for you, unfortunately it wasn't. Why are you whinging about it?
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Of course it is, for as long as Scotland is part of the UK. The reality is that UKIP cannot represent the position of Scotland in any dealings with the EU, since apart from the idiot Coburn who is an MEP they have no Scottish representation in either Westminster or Holyrood.
So, I'll ask again, what mandate does UKIP have to negotiate Brexit (which removes the idiot Coburn when it happens) on behalf of Scotland? I suspect you are conflating any anti-European sentiment from anywhere as being implicit support for UKIP - and yet we don't have any UKIP MSPs or MPs.
When this madness is resolved I expect UKIP will be history.
And I'll say again Scotland was not dealt with as a separate entity. It was the UK and the outcome of the UK referendum is applied to all of the UK, which includes that desolate bit at the top called Scotland.
How many Conservative MPs etc. does Scotland have? Yet they are doing the deal for the UK, which includes Scotland. Do they have a mandate to speak for Scotland?
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The referendum never was never a legal affair, not legally binding.
No idea what you are trying to say here, sorry.
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and yet it was never going to happen. The referendum is and always have been advisory as Parliament is sovereign. That you are stinging that it should be different just underlines your failure of comprehension. I cannot understand why you think it's OK for you to whinge about the way the referendum was held but not for others. You seem to not realise quite how hypocritical this comes across, Though I suspect that's because of your lack of self awareness.
I'm not whinging, where did you get that from? It was just an idea about how things could have been conducted to ease this hiatus we are in now. With my idea the Leave team would have triggered Art 50 and got things going by now. Instead we have all these remainers crying like babies.
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Moderator:
There seems to be a degree of sniping going on in recent posts, one of which I've Modded.
While the terms used to date aren't unduly insulting, in comparison to some, nevertheless confrontational posting can escalate - so could we have less of this please.
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I'm not whinging, where did you get that from? It was just an idea about how things could have been conducted to ease this hiatus we are in now. With my idea the Leave team would have triggered Art 50 and got things going by now. Instead we have all these remainers crying like babies.
you are saying that you don't think the referendum was held as you believed it should. You are complaining that due to that the actual effects are not what you want. Since this is what seems to drive you to refer to other's as whinging, it is the logic of your position that you are whinging.
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you are saying that you don't think the referendum was held as you believed it should. You are complaining that due to that the actual effects are not what you want. Since this is what seems to drive you to refer to other's as whinging, it is the logic of your position that you are whinging.
Can't I present an idea, a suggestion etc., without you lot jumping down my throat? That was all I was doing; some better solution than the chaos and mess we have now. I thought what I suggested was reasonable and workable. Is this not what we humans do, come up with alternative solutions to commonly held but flawed customs?
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As for your last bit, where did he say that? We won.
It's somewhat hypocritical to claim that a close vote would be unfinished business but only if your own side lost. Therefore I assumed that Nigel was talking about a close vote whichever way it goes.
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It's somewhat hypocritical to claim that a close vote would be unfinished business but only if your own side lost. Therefore I assumed that Nigel was talking about a close vote whichever way it goes.
I've looked at the link.
These things are not reciprocal because if we had voted to stay the underlining issue for us to leave would still be there and unresolved for those who saw the need to leave. For me, and them, the EU is like a cancer, the issue is only over when it has been removed. What Farage was saying in the piece was that a future referendum would still be on the cards, but unlike some of the whinging Remainers, he didn't mean straight afterwards, as they are now calling for.
Therefore, and as for the close %age margin, which is what I think you are referring to, this changes nothing. If it had been 52/48 to stay then we would have stayed with the option of a future referendum, years hence. As it is, it was 52/48 to leave and so we have to leave with the option of a referendum in the future to re-join, years hence. The only difference is that re-joining does not get us back to square one in this regard as we would have to start from scratch and lose all our opt outs, and special conditions. We would also have to join the Euro, which you have agreed is a total failure and an abomination to mankind. This is why I say at the top that these things are reciprocal because in leaving and then joining again doesn't get us back to what was (or what we have at present).
What looks to be happening is that Brussels will be forced to radically change its whole plan of the federal state and if the EU does change to EU-light then re-joining at some future date may be palatable for some, or the majority. What might also happen is that the EU becomes an auxiliary institution to the nationl states and so we will be part of it not because we have moved back towards it but because it has moved to the nation states.
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I've looked at the link.
Finally.
These things are not reciprocal because if we had voted to stay the underlining issue for us to leave would still be there and unresolved for those who saw the need to leave. For me, and them, the EU is like a cancer, the issue is only over when it has been removed.
But the EU is not actually like a cancer at all.
Therefore, and as for the close %age margin, which is what I think you are referring to, this changes nothing. If it had been 52/48 to stay then we would have stayed with the option of a future referendum, years hence.
Since it is very much harder to get back in once we are out, it makes much more sense to worry about second thoughts in the current case than if the result had been the other way around.
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Finally.
Hey I'm an old man I don't get around so much these days, anyway my colostomy bag was full.
But the EU is not actually like a cancer at all.
That's your best erudite comment you can come up with to my brilliant post? But that is how some of us see it. You can't be half in a disaster and survive.
Since it is very much harder to get back in once we are out, it makes much more sense to worry about second thoughts in the current case than if the result had been the other way around.
That's besides the point. If the people vote to leave then we must leave, which is what they have done. You only have second thoughts about something worth bothering about, which doesn't apply to the EU. Open your eyes, Jeremy, it is not only some of the British people who are discontented with the EU. Words of protest against it is growing all over the continent.
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That's your best erudite comment you can come up with to my brilliant post? But that is how some of us see it. You can't be half in a disaster and survive.
You were the one who made the hysterical comparison to cancer, not me.
That's besides the point. If the people vote to leave then we must leave, which is what they have done.
Not necessarily. Circumstances change. The vote was not legally binding.
You only have second thoughts about something worth bothering about, which doesn't apply to the EU. Open your eyes, Jeremy, it is not only some of the British people who are discontented with the EU. Words of protest against it is growing all over the continent.
It could certainly do with reform, but events are showing that we would have done better to stay in.
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There's no reason why we should not have a chance to change our minds.
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Not necessarily. Circumstances change. The vote was not legally binding.
True, but I would like to see who has the nerve to go against what was a resounding vote to leave - turnout 73%.
It could certainly do with reform, but events are showing that we would have done better to stay in.
Reform isn't the word; total overhaul is. You think staying on a sinking ship is a good idea?
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True, but I would like to see who has the nerve to go against what was a resounding vote to leave - turnout 73%.
Reform isn't the word; total overhaul is. You think staying on a sinking ship is a good idea?
Why quote turnout here? On and of itself it's irrelevant to the claim and given the figure then shows 27% of people voted neither way undermines the claim.
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True, but I would like to see who has the nerve to go against what was a resounding vote to leave
Resounding? It was 52-48. These are statistics that Farage himself said would be inconclusive.
Reform isn't the word; total overhaul is. You think staying on a sinking ship is a good idea?
Well it's certainly sinking now. It wasn't before the vote.
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Resounding? It was 52-48. These are statistics that Farage himself said would be inconclusive.
1.25 million more voted to leave than to stay.
What Farage said was for the long term, not weeks later, or even months or a few years down the road.
Feel free to arrange a vote to join the EU in say 5 to 10 years time.
Well it's certainly sinking now. It wasn't before the vote.
Oh, if you had the honest eyes of reality you would have seen those gaping holes years ago.
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1.25 million more voted to leave than to stay.
What Farage said was for the long term, not weeks later, or even months or a few years down the road.
Feel free to arrange a vote to join the EU in say 5 to 10 years time.
Oh, if you had the honest eyes of reality you would have seen those gaping holes years ago.
No Farage said that if it was 52-48 it would be unfinished business and he proposed a second referendum would happen.
He was right he just got the sides the wrong way.
I think the population should have the right to a vote on this anytime. If it goes tits up before article 50 is invoked I think things will change.
Don't forget. Leave crashed the car.
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1.25 million more voted to leave than to stay.
Which is only 4% of the people who voted.
What Farage said was for the long term, not weeks later, or even months or a few years down the road.
I don't think he put time scales on it.
Feel free to arrange a vote to join the EU in say 5 to 10 years time.
Oh, if you had the honest eyes of reality you would have seen those gaping holes years ago.
It would be better not to leave at all. We'd have difficulty negotiating to get our rebate back if we left and rejoined.
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I don't think he put time scales on it.
It would be better not to leave at all. We'd have difficulty negotiating to get our rebate back if we left and rejoined.
He wouldn't have meant in weeks or even months as the whinging Remainers are doing.
If we had voted to stay we would have lost our rebate in no time as the EU would have taken the vote as a positive sign of the UK's willingness to be part of the full political monty.
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Which is only 4% of the people who voted.
And under 2% of the population.
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If we had voted to stay we would have lost our rebate in no time as the EU would have taken the vote as a positive sign of the UK's willingness to be part of the full political monty.
You still can't stop lying can you.
Britain has a veto. Look up what that word means, please.
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You still can't stop lying can you.
Britain has a veto. Look up what that word means, please.
On our rebate?
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On our rebate?
On people taking the rebate away. That's why it hasn't happened.
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Here's Boris
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/19/boris-johnson-grilled-past-outright-lies-uneasy-press-conference-john-kerry
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Quite amusing if it was not so serious.
I'm so glad he didn't become leader of the Cons/PM.
Later: Just saw him in America on the news. It was well embarrassing :-[.
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Here's Boris
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/19/boris-johnson-grilled-past-outright-lies-uneasy-press-conference-john-kerry
It looks like Michael Gove did us a favour by derailing his leadership campaign.
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I've said it before but I really believe Boris was happy to stand down, he knew he wouldn't be up to the job and no doubt Theresa May promised him a top job if he backed her. I know I'm leaving Michael Gove out of this scenario but I feel so many deals go on behind the scenes that we don't hear of and Gove was never really a credible candidate, he just seemed to occupy Boris's empty space for a while. Ralph Fiennes has said something about him today: https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2016/jul/19/ralph-fiennes-michael-gove-is-just-like-richard-iii
But back to Boris - Foreign Affairs indeed! The UK's representative abroad. Well, Mrs May will be able to reshuffle in time :D
(I don't dislike Boris actually, it's nothing personal. He is a character, or maybe a caricature. It's just that I've never been able to take him seriously. Being Mayor was one thing but the world stage is a different matter.)
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hmm ... but he wasn't backing May, he was supporting Leadsom.
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I think May has appointed the three Brexit leaders as a joke, They all hate each other and being forced to share Chevening, normally reserved for the foreign secretary, will add to the farce.
I hope someone is starting a book on their antics!
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Dear Udayana,
Is he a Boris or a de Pfeffel :P so far he has been fairly quiet, taking his bumps from his fellow journalists with a quiet humility, and from what I have read so far, he is keeping his head down when speaking with his EU counterparts.
In other news, this guy is predicting that de Pfeffel will be our next PM, in the mold of Winston Churchill :o :o
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36803206
Gonnagle.
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I was getting a bit confused in my enthusiasm (indeed the other day I was talking to someone about the EU ref and kept saying, "Brexit" when I meant "Remainers"; I knew what I meant and, thankfully, so did the person I was talking to). Michael Gove backed May, iirc and thought he would have a prominent position in her government; it seemed so but didn't last long!
The de Pfeffel name suits Boris but I don't think de Pfeffel is his alter ego. He is what he is regardless of ancestry. To quote his rich Russian friend: "Boris is not a man of intrigue. Boris is very loyal."
He's like Marmite, really.
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I think May has appointed the three Brexit leaders as a joke, They all hate each other and being forced to share Chevening, normally reserved for the foreign secretary, will add to the farce.
I hope someone is starting a book on their antics!
So you are saying that she hopes they'll get found out by the press and made to look incompatible and incompetent so that she can then appoint some Remainers?
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They will tie themselves in knots.
All the significant decisions will be made by May and Hammond. May has said "Brexit means Brexit" so I don't think she intends to remain or promote remainers. However, I expect that her final choices will depend on how she thinks the electorate balance economic security against immigration.
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They will tie themselves in knots.
All the significant decisions will be made by May and Hammond. May has said "Brexit means Brexit" so I don't think she intends to remain or promote retainers.
She said "made up word" means "made up word". The statement contained no information. I think, right now, she is doing her level best to find a way out of this mess without leaving the EU. She may succeed, but it will probably be at the cost of her own career.
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I read earlier, on the 'net, that Theresa May, in Germany, has managed to avoid answering the question: 'Why did you appoint BJ as foreign sec?'. She diverted skilfully in a suitably vague manner.
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I read earlier, on the 'net, that Theresa May, in Germany, has managed to avoid answering the question: 'Why did you appoint BJ as foreign sec?'. She diverted skilfully in a suitably vague manner.
Did it go something like ''Kerwhibbleshibbly dobbledopdopwheeeeeeeeee'' by any chance?
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You saw it too?
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The more I hear about Boris Johnson the more he grows on me ;)
During the Conservative Party leadership contest, Mrs May used the water cannon fiasco to mock Mr Johnson’s negotiating skills by saying: “Boris negotiated in Europe. I seem to remember last time he did a deal with the Germans, he came back with three nearly-new water cannon.”
https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/boris-johnson-still-trying-find-use-water-cannon/
;D
Boris Johnson on heatwave: We have beautiful German water cannon
;D ;D
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They will tie themselves in knots.
All the significant decisions will be made by May and Hammond. May has said "Brexit means Brexit" so I don't think she intends to remain or promote remainers. However, I expect that her final choices will depend on how she thinks the electorate balance economic security against immigration.
You may be right. The three amigos may be May's puppets, the face of the process for good measure but being heavily guided.
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She said "made up word" means "made up word". The statement contained no information. I think, right now, she is doing her level best to find a way out of this mess without leaving the EU. She may succeed, but it will probably be at the cost of her own career.
She's using Brexit the way you are using it i.e. to include the EEA etc. That is as a non Member of the EU.
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Boris's hair is looking much tidier, I wonder if TM got her scissors out when she gave him the job of Foreign Secretary? :D
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Boris's hair is looking much tidier, I wonder if TM got her scissors out when she gave him the job of Foreign Secretary? :D
The-razor May!!! ;D
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Boris's hair is looking much tidier, I wonder if TM got her scissors out when she gave him the job of Foreign Secretary? :D
It looked pretty all-over-the-place during his joint press conference with John Kerry the other day.
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It looked pretty all-over-the-place during his joint press conference with John Kerry the other day.
I agree. I was rather surprised considering. Not only that but it looks too long or badly cut as well. On Have I Got News For You they showed a clip just before they started shooting of Boris with lovely well combed hair and on hearing the cue to start he quickly rough up his hair giving a grunt that signified that he hated the feel of that well combed hair. Seems he feels more comfortable with it in that dishevelled state.
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Johnson turned up on the BBC exhorting people to switch off the TV when Blair comes on.
I bet there were a few watching who wished they had turned off when Johnson appeared prior to the referendum.
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Johnson turned up on the BBC exhorting people to switch off the TV when Blair comes on.
I bet there were a few watching who wished they had turned off when Johnson appeared prior to the referendum.
And miss Blair grovelling in trying to get some of his credibility back after the Chilcot report and other shame episodes in his career as a professional wanker.
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Dear Jack,
Professional Wanker!! As opposed to a amateur Wanker, yes I think you have summed the guy up perfectly, then again he makes a very good living at being a professional Wanker. >:(
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jack,
Professional Wanker!! As opposed to a amateur Wanker, yes I think you have summed the guy up perfectly, then again he makes a very good living at being a professional Wanker. >:(
Gonnagle.
Many of them do. Barroso got a job at Goldman sachs.