Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: jeremyp on July 04, 2016, 11:34:06 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36708774
The share of businesses that are pessimistic about their prospects has jumped from 25% to 49%. This means that they will cut back or freeze new investment which means the economy is going to slow down.
More evidence that the Remainers were right.
Hopefully, some day soon I'm going to wake up from this nightmare.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36708774
The share of businesses that are pessimistic about their prospects has jumped from 25% to 49%. This means that they will cut back or freeze new investment which means the economy is going to slow down.
More evidence that the Remainers were right.
Hopefully, some day soon I'm going to wake up from this nightmare.
The way forward is clear then....The Norway option with tax for the best off and cuts in benefits.
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The first brown shoots of Brexit
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36853577
Easyjet has lost £40 million so far because of the totally unnecessary slump in the pound caused by Brexit.
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Front page of the Telegraph : BoE says no signs of the downturn; as forecast by those doom mongers the Remainers; things looking steady.
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Front page of the Telegraph : BoE says no signs of the downturn; as forecast by those doom mongers the Remainers; things looking steady.
You haven't seethe IMF forecast then?
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You haven't seethe IMF forecast then?
You mean the IMF that keep getting things wrong, again and again?
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Front page of the Telegraph : BoE says no signs of the downturn; as forecast by those doom mongers the Remainers; things looking steady.
Aye - that's probably because currently we are still in the EU and will be for at least the next 2 years.
Things will change, and for the worse, when Article 50 is invoked.
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Aye - that's probably because currently we are still in the EU and will be for at least the next 2 years.
Things will change, and for the worse, when Article 50 is invoked.
The IMF is predicting that growth in the UK will be nearly 1% less than previous pre-Brexit forecasts.
Let's hope the BofE is right, although before the vote Jack Knave and his ilk dismissed them as mere experts.
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And the for the fuckwits who don't understand there's this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273
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And the for the fuckwits who don't understand there's this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273
You beat me to it!!, Trent.
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Oh, another region that voted Brexit is going to be screwed
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/update/2016-07-13/alun-cairns-welsh-eu-funding-cant-be-replaced-by-westminster/
Wales voted Leave and the government is already saying they won't be able to keep all those lovely grants. Sucks to be Welsh.
And English.
And Scottish.
And Irish.
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Looks like that's about it for strawberry farming
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/20/brexit-farm-labour-shortages-fruit-vegetable-harvests-national-farmers-union
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Aye - that's probably because currently we are still in the EU and will be for at least the next 2 years.
Things will change, and for the worse, when Article 50 is invoked.
...and more unsubstantiated project fear...
Careless talk costs lives!
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The IMF is predicting that growth in the UK will be nearly 1% less than previous pre-Brexit forecasts.
Let's hope the BofE is right, although before the vote Jack Knave and his ilk dismissed them as mere experts.
This time the BoE was doing its job of looking at the short term based on the facts to hand not conjuring up forecasts based on gossip.
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...and more unsubstantiated project fear...
Careless talk costs lives!
What careless talk like we'll spend 350 million on the NHS?
Oh sorry that wasn't careless talk that was a bare-faced lie.
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What careless talk like we'll spend 350 million on the NHS?
Oh sorry that wasn't careless talk that was a bare-faced lie.
They weren't talking down the economy and the UK they were trying to win a referendum. And it wasn't wholly a lie but a possibility...
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They weren't talking down the economy and the UK they were trying to win a referendum. And it wasn't wholly a lie but a possibility...
No it was a lie.
And no-one is talking down the economy - merely reporting reality.
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They weren't talking down the economy and the UK they were trying to win a referendum. And it wasn't wholly a lie but a possibility...
They were lying. And anyway I haven't talked the economy down - the act of voting to leave has made the economy shrink. You did that. Own it and suck it up. We are all losers because of backward-thinking, small-minded, racist, xenophobic rubbish.
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They were lying. And anyway I haven't talked the economy down - the act of voting to leave has made the economy shrink. You did that. Own it and suck it up. We are all losers because of backward-thinking, small-minded, racist, xenophobic rubbish.
It is the lie of project fear of the Remainers that is running the economy down.
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What careless talk like we'll spend 350 million on the NHS?
Oh sorry that wasn't careless talk that was a bare-faced lie.
I think it's something like 30 years before that will be the case and then the NHS will have ended thanks to Brexiteers.
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It is the lie of project fear of the Remainers that is running the economy down.
No, it's Brexit.
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And yet more of the brave new world of Brexit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36869000
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The industry I am in seems to be on a roll.
Can't say I've noticed Brexit yet.
If anything we are busier than ever.
Ok maybe that won't last, but I've never seen it so busy.
We will have to see how it pans out in 12 months time.
I work for a big company. (International)
I'm starting to wonder if people want to spend their money before someone takes it away from them, but my RL reality doesn't reflect the gloom here.
I've got a real sense of cognitive dissonance when I read such gloomy outlooks.
Maybe it takes a while to filter down.
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This time the BoE was doing its job of looking at the short term based on the facts to hand not conjuring up forecasts based on gossip.
This is the same Bank of England, by the way, that you are criticising for making £250 billion available for banks. You seem to be cherry picking.
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This is the same Bank of England, by the way, that you are criticising for making £250 billion available for banks. You seem to be cherry picking.
No one's perfect.
All I'm saying is that this time, with this forecast and assessment, they were doing what they are suppose to in the manner that they should, not playing politics with the facts.
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All I'm saying is that this time, with this forecast and assessment, they were doing what they are suppose to in the manner that they should, not playing politics with the facts.
That's a classic case of confirmation bias.
How do you know that they weren't doing what they are supposed in the manner that they should before and they are not playing politics with the facts now.
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That's a classic case of confirmation bias.
How do you know that they weren't doing what they are supposed in the manner that they should before and they are not playing politics with the facts now.
No it's not.
Past performance and record.
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No it's not.
Yes it is.
Past performance and record.
But according to you, their past performance was biased by politics. Therefore you should not be listening to them.
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Yes it is.
But according to you, their past performance was biased by politics. Therefore you should not be listening to them.
No it's not!
One event is not a past performance dumbass!!....especially as they have been around for eons.
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No it's not!
One event is not a past performance dumbass!!....especially as they have been around for eons.
Cherry picking. Before the vote the Bank of England was predicting economic turmoil just like almost all the other experts. Why did you not listen to them then?
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What careless talk like we'll spend 350 million on the NHS?
Oh sorry that wasn't careless talk that was a bare-faced lie.
Wasn't the idea that we could spend it on that if we chose to?
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Wasn't the idea that we could spend it on that if we chose to?
No. The idea was to lie to the British electorate.
It was the equivalent of me claiming that I'm not going to give you a million pounds, therefore I'm a millionaire.
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Wasn't the idea that we could spend it on that if we chose to?
First of all, the £350 million never existed. That was the figure for our gross contribution. In fact, once you take into account all the money we get back in various ways , it is a much smaller figure in net terms. Then, when you take into account the decrease in forecast government income caused by the slow down that eats further into the figure.
Secondly, who chooses? Actually we don't choose the government does. The government is likely to plough the saving into managing the deficit rather than handing out cash to hospitals.
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Cherry picking. Before the vote the Bank of England was predicting economic turmoil just like almost all the other experts. Why did you not listen to them then?
Because their forecasts were based on political considerations not economic ones.
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Because their forecasts were based on political considerations not economic ones.
So this latest forecast is based on political considerations too. Why do you believe it?
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So this latest forecast is based on political considerations too. Why do you believe it?
No it's not.
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No it's not.
So all the forecasts you disagree with were subject to political bias but this one you agree with is not?
That's a text book example of confirmation bias.
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First of all, the £350 million never existed. That was the figure for our gross contribution.
But we lose control of how it is spent. So in theory we could have spent it all on the NHS?
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But we lose control of how it is spent. So in theory we could have spent it all on the NHS?
Yes at the expense of farmers, scientists, etc. The problems were a) the figure was false, b) there were too many losers if you spent the figure on the NHS or any other single beneficiary.
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As the figure was false it is purely hypothetical but 110b could go to each - NHS, farmers, scientists - leaving 20b which I could pocket as it was my idea. I'd give you some!
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But we lose control of how it is spent.
I like the way people look at the government in Westminster and assume they are "we".
You will have no control whatsoever in how the hundred odd million we save in membership fees will be spent.
So in theory we could have spent it all on the NHS?
No, because it doesn't really exist. The figure is and has always been a lie.
If the money isn't spent in more or less the same way as it is now, lot of people are going to be in serious trouble.
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No, because it doesn't really exist. The figure is and has always been a lie.
Copy that.
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Can anyone say why the FTSE 100 is doing so well?
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Can anyone say why the FTSE 100 is doing so well?
Well?
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Well?
Yes. I mean at the end 2015 is was at 6274 and today it is hovering around 6730 so supposing I say reasonably well.
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Yes. I mean at the end 2015 is was at 6274 and today it is hovering around 6730 so supposing I say reasonably well.
Maybe relatively well would be better?
Relative to end 2015 then well. Relative to August 2015 it's just catching back up!
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Can anyone say why the FTSE 100 is doing so well?
Somebody, I think it ws the Prof has explained this: a lot of the companies in the FTSE 100 have their shares traded in dollars. The tanking pound inflates their value.
Having said that, the FTSE 250 is also holding out quite well at the moment.
I think part of it is the fact that we haven't put in Article 50 yet and when we do, a Norway type deal looks to be on the cards which, from a business point of view, is no worse than what we have now.
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So all the forecasts you disagree with were subject to political bias but this one you agree with is not?
That's a text book example of confirmation bias.
No, it's about what is done correctly and what is done to cook the books.
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. . .
I think part of it is the fact that we haven't put in Article 50 yet and when we do, a Norway type deal looks to be on the cards which, from a business point of view, is no worse than what we have now.
But the problem is that the 'Hard Brexitors' are are likely to be up in arms if any deal allows free movement of workers - so a Norway type deal would create tremendous conflict, especially when the public finally cotton-on that they have lost more than they have gained.
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especially when the public finally cotton-on that they have lost more than they have gained.
Don't worry. The Express will have that covered. It will all be the fault of those nasty foreigners.
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No, it's about what is done correctly and what is done to cook the books.
Nope. There's no reason to believe that the BofE is doing anything different with its forecasts now as compared to before the referendum. Either they are still "cooking the books" or they weren't "cooking the books" before. Which is it?
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But the problem is that the 'Hard Brexitors' are are likely to be up in arms if any deal allows free movement of workers - so a Norway type deal would create tremendous conflict, especially when the public finally cotton-on that they have lost more than they have gained.
Ah yes, but, we already know that the Norway deal has substantial support. Most of the Remainers would go with that as a poor second to staying in the EU. Then you only need a small percentage of the Leavers to go with Norway and we have an absolute majority. If there's more than one other option , it will split the vote of the left over Leavers.
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Nope. There's no reason to believe that the BofE is doing anything different with its forecasts now as compared to before the referendum. Either they are still "cooking the books" or they weren't "cooking the books" before. Which is it?
You have this stupid black and white naïve binary attitude which shows up your immaturity. Life is more nuanced than that!
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You have this stupid black and white naïve binary attitude which shows up your immaturity. Life is more nuanced than that!
Nobody on this board is more immature than you.
This is exemplified in you r complete inability to understand what is going on, your complete inability to understand what other people are saying and your complete inability to respond to posts without insulting people.
You have no idea about anything and you demonstrate it in spades every time you click the post button.
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Nobody on this board is more immature than you.
I apologise, maybe Sassy is more immature than you.
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Ah yes, but, we already know that the Norway deal has substantial support. Most of the Remainers would go with that as a poor second to staying in the EU. Then you only need a small percentage of the Leavers to go with Norway and we have an absolute majority. If there's more than one other option , it will split the vote of the left over Leavers.
My own view is that a Norway deal is the only practical route out of this mess, but it will bring it's own problems.
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I have just seen an news item stating the economy has started to slow down, post Brexit.
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Lloyds axing 3,000 jobs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36911896
Brexit is amongst the reasons cited for having to do this.
Note they are not axing jobs because Brexit has dented their profits, they are axing jobs because they think it will dent their profits. If enough companies use the same thinking, it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.
We could have avoided all this quite easily, but Little England was considered to be better.
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I have just seen an news item stating the economy has started to slow down, post Brexit.
Could you give us a link? Since the report on the last quarter is still only draft and awaits several futher bits of information, I'd be surprised if any report based on perhaps 3 weeks' information is really trustworthy.
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https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/28/health-check-of-key-sectors-post-brexit-vote-counter-growth-figure
I had to laugh when I saw the Express front page - Britain is booming. Of course, if you read further on, these are figures from before the Brexit vote. I wonder how they will deal with signs of slowdown after Brexit - put them on page 35 I suppose, or just lie.
NB. 'Hammond indicated a slowdown was imminent', from the above article.
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https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/28/health-check-of-key-sectors-post-brexit-vote-counter-growth-figure
I had to laugh when I saw the Express front page - Britain is booming. Of course, if you read further on, these are figures from before the Brexit vote. I wonder how they will deal with signs of slowdown after Brexit - put them on page 35 I suppose, or just lie.
NB. 'Hammond indicated a slowdown was imminent', from the above article.
Just lie I suppose. total wank has proved popular with 52% of people who voted for Brexit.
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Nobody on this board is more immature than you.
This is exemplified in you r complete inability to understand what is going on, your complete inability to understand what other people are saying and your complete inability to respond to posts without insulting people.
You have no idea about anything and you demonstrate it in spades every time you click the post button.
Evidence for this. Nice little tantrum Jeremy!
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Evidence for this. Nice little tantrum Jeremy!
Exhibit A.
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Nobody on this board is more immature than you.
This is exemplified in you r complete inability to understand what is going on, your complete inability to understand what other people are saying and your complete inability to respond to posts without insulting people.
You have no idea about anything and you demonstrate it in spades every time you click the post button.
Brexitters vote for Brexit then lose consumer confidence....and then wonder why people aren't highly impressed with them.
Will Jeremy Kyle do a special on Brexitters in denial I wonder.
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Exhibit A.
What exhibit? Give us a link. You have to provide definitive evidence, not some deluded ideas that are festering in your mind.
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Seems to me Lloyds have problems other than Brexit and its just a convenient excuse for something that would have happened anyway, regardless of Brexit.
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What exhibit? Give us a link.
The post that I quoted was exhibit A.
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Seems to me Lloyds have problems other than Brexit and its just a convenient excuse for something that would have happened anyway, regardless of Brexit.
I don't think so. Last year's profits were over two billion pounds. They are doing this because they perceive that Brexit will cause them problems in the future. The prophecy becomes self fulfilling if enough people shed jobs in preparation for the predicted down turn.
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Hadn't Lloyds been planning this for months before the referendum?
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I don't think so. Last year's profits were over two billion pounds. They are doing this because they perceive that Brexit will cause them problems in the future. The prophecy becomes self fulfilling if enough people shed jobs in preparation for the predicted down turn.
No Jeremy
The market has changed and more people bank online, all these branches are expensive to run.
They have made more profit than last year, their profits haven't dropped.
Lloyds has accelerated its job-cutting scheme, axing a further 3,000 roles, even as it reported a 101% increase in pre-tax profits.
It has also doubled its planned branch closures, with 200 more set to vanish from High Streets by the end of 2017.
The bank attributed the cuts to changes in people's banking habits, and the effects of interest rates remaining low for the foreseeable future.
Lloyds is already carrying out 9,000 redundancies and 200 branch closures.
It announced those cost-cutting measures in 2014.
The bank confirmed that the decision to make further cuts was taken before the EU referendum on 23 June.
The news of fresh job losses came as Lloyds reported a £2.5bn pre-tax profit for the half year to the end of June 2016.
In the same period last year, it made £1.2bn.
The profits rise was largely due to a sharp drop-off in payment protection insurance (PPI) compensation payouts, which dented previous profits.
PPI has cost the bank more than £16bn since 2011. Lenders are expecting the scheme to be wrapped up soon.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36911896
Had remain won, this would still have happened.
The market changing and low interest rates are what is driving this, not Brexit.
They are not closing branches because they have made a loss or because they foresee Brexit having some effect.
It was planned back in 2014.
🌹
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Apparantly branch visits for Lloyds are down 15% and home banking especially by way of smartphone apps is the way most people deal with their day to day stuff. There is very little you cannot do on a smartphone these days and even if you have a deposit to make these can the done by way of a machine.
Lloyds have shareholders and shareholders require a return on their investement. As Rose says, more to do with capitalism and little, if anything, to do with Brexit.
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The market has changed and more people bank online, all these branches are expensive to run.
The market changed years ago. Nothing has changed significantly in the last year, during which Lloyds made over two billion pounds.
Had remain won, this would still have happened.
Evidence please.
Lloyds have claimed that Brexit is a factor in the number of jobs lost. I see no reason to doubt them.
More worryingly, the attitude "Brexit is going to make things harder, let's put the brakes on investment" is prevalent in industry at the moment, so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
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The market changed years ago. Nothing has changed significantly in the last year, during which Lloyds made over two billion pounds.
Evidence please.
Lloyds have claimed that Brexit is a factor in the number of jobs lost. I see no reason to doubt them.
More worryingly, the attitude "Brexit is going to make things harder, let's put the brakes on investment" is prevalent in industry at the moment, so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Where have Lloyds claimed their decision had anything to do with Brexit?
It just you claiming this.
According to my link the decision was taken back in 2014 to cut back jobs and close branches.
You are making unsupported claims about what Lloyds have actually said.
They actually said it had nothing to do with Brexit but was planned back in 2014 and was a result of low interest rates and a change in the way people manage their accounts.
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Where have Lloyds claimed their decision had anything to do with Brexit?
In the news article I posted.
According to my link the decision was taken back in 2014 to cut back jobs and close branches.
But they are now saying that the scale of the cuts is related to the Brexit vote.
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In the news article I posted.
But they are now saying that the scale of the cuts is related to the Brexit vote.
The bank confirmed that the decision to make further cuts was taken before the EU referendum on 23 June.
It had nothing to do with Brexit if it was decided before the vote.
You are not reading the link you posted.
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They are, or suddenly shifted to, blaming Brexit because it saves them admitting that they are the ones who have fucked up here - which they all did decades ago.
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They are, or suddenly shifted to, blaming Brexit because it saves them admitting that they are the ones who have fucked up here - which they all did decades ago.
They made profits of over two billion pounds last year. One hell of a fuck up.
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They made profits of over two billion pounds last year. One hell of a fuck up.
No you read it wrong, they have made a 2.5 billion profit in the first half of this year.
The news of fresh job losses came as Lloyds reported a £2.5bn pre-tax profit for the half year to the end of June 2016.
In the same period last year, it made £1.2bn.
The profits rise was largely due to a sharp drop-off in payment protection insurance (PPI) compensation payouts, which dented previous profits.
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They made profits of over two billion pounds last year. One hell of a fuck up.
So why are they laying off staff?
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So why are they laying off staff?
To make more profit?
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To make more profit?
And they are concerned about Brexit.
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And they are concerned about Brexit.
Only because they were in a mess in the first place and this bumpy ride to a better world is making them even more vulnerable.
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Nissan seem to have it sussed. Wait and see, reasonably optimistic and let common sense prevail.
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Nissan seem to have it sussed. Wait and see, reasonably optimistic and let common sense prevail.
I'd read 'Reasonably Optimistic' as bad news - it just means that they don't have any immediate plans for closing plant.
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So you believe they have plans to close the plant?
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I'd read 'Reasonably Optimistic' as bad news - it just means that they don't have any immediate plans for closing plant.
Nissan is controlled by Renault. There is every possibility that Renault would look to the opportunity to more closely integrate production of the two marques and it would be politically expedient for this to be done in France.
This would also affect parts suppliers and service providers in Britain. The number of people who may lose their jobs would not be limited to Nissan employees.
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Nissan is controlled by Renault. There is every possibility that Renault would look to the opportunity to more closely integrate production of the two marques and it would be politically expedient for this to be done in France.
This would also affect parts suppliers and service providers in Britain. The number of people who may lose their jobs would not be limited to Nissan employees.
Exactly, it would be amazing if that thought was not going through the minds of those in the higher echelons of Nissan/Renault. In that light 'Reasonably Optimistic' sounds pretty weak.
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But moving it to France has nothing to do with brexit.
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But moving it to France has nothing to do with brexit.
Pre-Brexit Britain was a good place to do business with free access to the European Market - Post Brexit? - well, no one is too sure just at the moment, but it is a fair bet that we won't still have the same access, so if you were a top executive at a multinational company that currently has plant in Britain, you would be reviewing your options - and if the company happened to be Renault, you might have a certain bias.
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One of the problems I have with the merchants of doom is that nobody knows what will happen. It all needs to be negotiated.
There were rumours about the French Government pressuring to have the operation moved last year but if you want to blame everything on the leave vote well so be it.
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One of the problems I have with the merchants of doom is that nobody knows what will happen. It all needs to be negotiated.
There were rumours about the French Government pressuring to have the operation moved last year but if you want to blame everything on the leave vote well so be it.
You are missing the point. What the United Kingdom needs is investment. What investors need to have is the confidence that the UK is a good place to do business. All they have at the moment is uncertainty. The exit vote was a negative vote - it was a statement about what people didn't want. No-one had bothered to propose an alternative to "freedom from the EU" (whatever that meant). This has created a level of uncertainty so great that it is unlikely that anyone would perceive the UK as a good place to do business.
If Nissan goes, watch others follow. How long do you think Airbus will continue wing manufacture in Bristol and North Wales?
I just hope, now, that Mrs May will see that she needs to do something rather more than try to mollify the Conservative Party. She should stop being a politician and become a leader.
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The Bank of England don't seem too rosy about the future. I think Carney is predicting job losses, as the economy contracts, even with his measures. Watch the Brexit people say either that these are bumps in the road, leading to a new brighter Britain, or that Carney is deliberately exaggerating, or that an economic downturn was going to happen anyway.
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You are missing the point. What the United Kingdom needs is investment. What investors need to have is the confidence that the UK is a good place to do business. All they have at the moment is uncertainty. The exit vote was a negative vote - it was a statement about what people didn't want. No-one had bothered to propose an alternative to "freedom from the EU" (whatever that meant). This has created a level of uncertainty so great that it is unlikely that anyone would perceive the UK as a good place to do business.
(((((If Nissan goes, watch others follow. How long do you think Airbus will continue wing manufacture in Bristol and North Wales?)))))
I just hope, now, that Mrs May will see that she needs to do something rather more than try to mollify the Conservative Party. She should stop being a politician and become a leader.
I too was wondering about Airbus. The factory and airport are a couple of miles or so down the road from us. The Beluga, the nickname of the aircraft, which takes the wings to France, flies over us several times a day. I reckon it would affect our area BIG TIME, so many houses have been built in the area, partly to accommodate the Airbus workers. As it is house prices have fallen, and quite a number of those, which were under offer before Brexit are back on the market.
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My point is a different one. All the merchants of doom will tell you Nissan are going and it's Brexit to blame, however a long time ago Nissan were under pressure, with the French government interfering in their relationship with Renault with a view to it benefitting guess who, oh its the French.
I understand things have stalled as a result of the vote but with regard to what may or may not happen, it is nothing more that pure speculation.
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One of the problems I have with the merchants of doom is that nobody knows what will happen. It all needs to be negotiated.
There were rumours about the French Government pressuring to have the operation moved last year but if you want to blame everything on the leave vote well so be it.
The thing that I find infuriating is that all the problems we now see occurring were predicted - but that was just 'experts' so what do they know?
. . . . and it was all written-off as 'Project Fear'
. . . . and 52% of voters were naive enough to believe it.
In short - YES I DO VERY MUCH BLAME THE LEAVE CAMPAIGN.
I suspect that most people of my age will never again be as well-off as we were on the 23rd of June and young people face a very uncertain future, but I suppose it's much easier for them to emigrate.
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Well, Carney's speculations presumably carry some weight, unless you are going to say that he is deliberately exaggerating the dangers of recession. I would think also that the new chancellor is working hard, thinking up fiscal measures to relax austerity, so as to avoid recession. I think that was the austerity developed by the last chancellor, wasn't it? Who's in charge of the asylum?
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This comment on the FT website has been making waves, quite eloquent; he's talking about 'three tragedies' about Brexit:
"Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one.
Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors.
Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said ‘the British people are sick of experts’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has lead to anything other than bigotry."
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People of the generation who follow me are already worse off and it has nothing to do with Brexit. Ask the ones who paid through the nose for property or simply cannot afford to but a home of their own, and add to that poor wage growth, the arse falling out of workplace pensions and them probably having to work until they are seventy.
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People of the generation who follow me are already worse off and it has nothing to do with Brexit. Ask the ones who paid through the nose for property or simply cannot afford to but a home of their own, and add to that poor wage growth, the arse falling out of workplace pensions and them probably having to work until they are seventy.
I'd agree with quite a lot of that, but Brexit is not going to improve anything for anyone - except speculators who must be raking it in at the moment.
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This comment on the FT website has been making waves, quite eloquent; he's talking about 'three tragedies' about Brexit:
"Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one.
They are always the ones to suffer, so if they suffer in or out of Europe does it really matter to them?
People who do not suffer will contine to not suffer, not like the "working classes". This has been brewing for a long, long time. When things are a grind, it doesn't matter where it happens, or how. It is still the same old grind. See "unreachable" in the above quote.
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The FT guy isn't saying that everything was wonderful - far from it. But that Brexit is going to make it worse.
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I'd agree with quite a lot of that, but Brexit is not going to improve anything for anyone - except speculators who must be raking it in at the moment.
Don't get me wrong, I voted in myself but and think leaving was a poor choice however I would rather wait and see how it all plays out before coming to any conclusion. There is a lot of mileage in this yet.
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I guess that Carney is not going to wait and see. And presumably the government will take measures, e.g. reduce VAT, or whatever, to reduce the risk of recession. Austerity is good - no, sorry, austerity is now bad.
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They are always the ones to suffer, so if they suffer in or out of Europe does it really matter to them?
People who do not suffer will contine to not suffer, not like the "working classes". This has been brewing for a long, long time. When things are a grind, it doesn't matter where it happens, or how. It is still the same old grind. See "unreachable" in the above quote.
If you consider the example of Sunderland an area with a high Brexit vote, Nissan workers with good well paid jobs apparently voted in a way likely to result in the closure of their factory. Even non-Nissan workers will suffer if the plant closes there will be economic devastation in the area.
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But moving it to France has nothing to do with brexit.
Yes it does. They wouldn't do it now because of the cost. However, as soon as tariffs get slapped on British made cars, the economics of moving change.
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Yes it does. They wouldn't do it now because of the cost. However, as soon as tariffs get slapped on British made cars, the economics of moving change.
Where is the evidence to say Nissan exiting the UK is happening, and would be utterly and solely to do with Brexit.
Tarrifs on British made cars could be countered with tarrifs on cars made in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Czechoslovakia
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Little in economics is utterly and solely due to any one event.
We can impose tariffs on EU made vehicles - this will affect EU car manufacturers but this will be limited as the largest proportion of their sales are in the rest of the EU. However EU tariffs on British made cars (likely 10%) will have a much larger effect on UK manufactures (if any remain) as the EU is a bigger proportion of our potential market (around 50%). In addition decreased output will mean reduction in economies of scale.
To remain viable requires increased sales in alternative large markets - but to get this we would also need to open up to imports from countries with lower wage costs than the UK and EU - so still a risk for UK manufacturers.
On the hopeful side, all this will probably take years to work itself out.
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Where is the evidence to say Nissan exiting the UK is happening, and would be utterly and solely to do with Brexit.
Tarrifs on British made cars could be countered with tarrifs on cars made in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Czechoslovakia
Also with the lower pound Nissan are doing even better being based in UK.
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As someone whose contract is now not going to continue, in part because of Brexit, I am somewhat pissed off
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Where is the evidence to say Nissan exiting the UK is happening, and would be utterly and solely to do with Brexit.
It is entirely possible that Nissan/Renault might have been considering ways to consolidate their European manufacturing operations long before Brexit raised it's ugly head, but if they end up facing tariffs, customs delays and difficulties transferring European staff between plants - it will likely be the final straw as far as the UK is concerned.
Tarrifs on British made cars could be countered with tariffs on cars made in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Czechoslovakia
I don't think that starting a Trade War is going to help anyone - certainly not us.
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Also with the lower pound Nissan are doing even better being based in UK.
It won't be quite as simple as that. It's true that some components are manufactured in the UK but many are manufactured in Europe. Labour rates should be lowered in the short term, but as inflation cuts-in there will be upward pressure from the unions.
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As someone whose contract is now not going to continue, in part because of Brexit, I am somewhat pissed off
I don't recall you arguing against?
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I don't recall you arguing against?
I did not spend much time on it here but your memory is wrong. And your point somewhat irrelevant to me currently. I am far from alone on this but you were happy for this to happen.
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I did not spend much time on it here but your memory is wrong. And your point somewhat irrelevant to me currently. I am far from alone on this but you were happy for this to happen.
Happy to vote the way i did given the arguments put forward, I don't recall any of yours.
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Happy to vote the way i did given the arguments put forward, I don't recall any of yours.
that you have a faulty memory and are happy that my contract and thousands of others are ending is worth so much to me.
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that you have a faulty memory and are happy that my contract and thousands of others are ending is worth so much to me.
My memory is what it is, I don't recall any of your arguments, point me in the direction of them.
I have no where said I'm happy your contract is ending, please don't make things up.
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My memory is what it is, I don't recall any of your arguments, point me in the direction of them.
I have no where said I'm happy your contract is ending, please don't make things up.
you are happy with the effects of the vote.
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you are happy with the effects of the vote.
No not all of them, where did you get that idea?
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No not all of them, where did you get that idea?
I'd be interested to know which effects you are happy with, I'm buggered if I can see anything to be happy about.
P.S. bye the way the hyperlinks are great.
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No not all of them, where did you get that idea?
your vote
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your vote
There will be downsides to leaving which I'm not happy with stop being ridiculous. If indyref had resulted in independence and the Scots economy tanked we should assume you would be happy?
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I'd be interested to know which effects you are happy with, I'm buggered if I can see anything to be happy about.
P.S. bye the way the hyperlinks are great.
Be happy you and yours are healthy and that you have food on the table.
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I'd be interested to know which effects you are happy with, I'm buggered if I can see anything to be happy about
P.S. bye the way the hyperlinks are great.
The credible sources that you and Davey cited predicted a 0.5 % short term technical recession, looks like they were wrong but growth has slowed. Contrary to NS nonsense I'm not happy that anyone should lose out.
I still think we will be better off in the long term.
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The credible sources that you and Davey cited predicted a 0.5 % short term technical recession, looks like they were wrong but growth has slowed. Contrary to NS nonsense I'm not happy that anyone should lose out.
I still think we will be better off in the long term.
Stop being inconsistent. If you think this is for the best you are happy with the effects.
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Stop being inconsistent. If you think this is for the best you are happy with the effects.
Stop being a wum. Bremainers bremoaners.
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Stop being a wum. Bremainers bremoaners.
your empathy for people losing jobs is quite extraordinary. You really don't want to accept the consequences of your action .
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When are you people going to realise the EU is finished we have brexit just a matter of time before more follow you remaniacs are just a minority.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/696760/british-no-regret-Brexit-majority-support-Leave-theresa-may-national-stats-poll-EU
~TW~
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your empathy for people losing jobs is quite extraordinary. You really don't want to accept the consequences of your action .
I voted a certain way because you failed to come up with an effective argument to persuade my to vote the other way. In the debate on this forum apart from your normal little occasional sneer you didn't come up with much, in fact I'm not even sure you even actually made your voting intentions known.
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I voted a certain way because you failed to come up with an effective argument to persuade my to vote the other way. In the debate on this forum apart from your normal little occasional sneer you didn't come up with much, in fact I'm not even sure you even actually made your voting intentions known.
Looks like the realisation that your vote actually has an effect on people has caused you to just resort to insult. Let's remember you were voting Leave even though you wanted to Stay.
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Looks like the realisation that your vote actually has an effect on people has caused you to just resort to insult. Let's remember you were voting Leave even though you wanted to Stay.
No idea what you are wittering on about.
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No idea what you are wittering on about.
you don't remember suggesting that you wanted a better deal and stay in the EU? I note you now cannot deal with this civilly now.
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you don't remember suggesting that you wanted a better deal and stay in the EU? I note you now cannot deal with this civilly now.
What I said was if you want to stay in a reformed Eu then vote leave as it will offer reforms for us to stay. I'm dealing with it civilly just not biting to your wind uppery, if you have lost your job as result of leave I feel sorry for you.
I would politely suggest maybe you could have come up with better arguments, but to be honest I don't recall you making any. Davey might a concerted effort and apart from the name calling he did make me think a few times.
Are you done with the baiting now?
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I still think we will be better off in the long term.
Why? How? I still have not heard one positive, even minimally convincing argument for leaving the EU.
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Why? How? I still have not heard one positive, even minimally convincing argument for leaving the EU.
Nor have I.
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What I said was if you want to stay in a reformed Eu then vote leave as it will offer reforms for us to stay.
What conceivable misperception of the situation encouraged you to have this fantasy?
There was a prime minister, Cameron, whose only concern was management of the Conservative Party. There was a near-demagogic popular politician who preached about the Promised Land. There was a group of minor political figures in the Conservative Party who each believed they could hijack their own way into Downing Street. There was a group of Neanderthal throwbacks on the Conservative back benches for whom nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
How on earth could you imagine any concept of reform might emerge? What illegal substance were you imbibing?
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Where is the evidence to say Nissan exiting the UK is happening, and would be utterly and solely to do with Brexit.
No. It would be due to economic conditions changing in general. EU tariffs might be countered by cheaper British labour caused by a recession or augmented by rises in the prices of imported raw materials caused by the collapse in the pound. It's a complex equation but Brexit is certainly not going to help and tariffs might be the tipping point.
Tarrifs on British made cars could be countered with tarrifs on cars made in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Czechoslovakia
This isn't the school playground. Every tariff applied reduces World prosperity by inhibiting trade. Tariffs are bad. That's why people do trade deals. That's why the single market exists.
And if you think BMW are going to be hurt by us applying tariffs to their cars in the same way as Nissan workers in Washington when the factory moves to France, you are seriously deluded.
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Also with the lower pound Nissan are doing even better being based in UK.
The raw materials they import will be more expensive. The EU tariffs will be a killer.
Give it two or three years, they'll be leaving.
And you can take pride in the fact that you personally take a share in the blame for those lost jobs.
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Stop being a wum. Bremainers bremoaners.
Why can't you accept that people are losing their jobs over this? Even if things improve in the long term there are going to be lots of cases like NS's in the short term. Be a man and own up to your responsibility.
Also, stop blaming NS for your inability to correctly parse the arguments.
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Why can't you accept that people are losing their jobs over this? Even if things improve in the long term there are going to be lots of cases like NS's in the short term. Be a man and own up to your responsibility.
Also, stop blaming NS for your inability to correctly parse the arguments.
In a democracy it is your responsibility to come up with convincing arguments for the position you want to prevail. This is going in circles, if you want to remain then Owen Smith \ Liberals will get it done for you. Sneering from the sidelines on an internet forum and calling peoples names failed to work for you in the referendum and it won't help your cause now.
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In a democracy it is your responsibility to come up with convincing arguments for the position you want to prevail. This is going in circles, if you want to remain then Owen Smith \ Liberals will get it done for you. Sneering from the sidelines on an internet forum and calling peoples names failed to work for you in the referendum and it won't help your cause now.
I see you still have nothing to say on your responsibility for NS's loss. You seem to be in total denial.
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calling peoples names
It is a fact that you are a coward. You are simply ignoring the consequences of your vote. Maybe that is calling you names, but they are true names.
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How is this tariff thing going to work then. Are the EU just going to slap tariffs on everything and we are just going to bend over and take it, or will there be negotiations.
In addition from what I read and hear Nissan are going nowhere.
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Have done 9 interviews today with people's whose contracts will end early in part becuase of Brexit. and I 've had to tell them that - if I had the energy to call someone names, I might well do
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I see you still have nothing to say on your responsibility for NS's loss. You seem to be in total denial.
He isn't any more responsible than you are.
No matter that he voted for Brexit.
This sounds like something that was going to happen Brexit or no, because it's only in part, according to NS.
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It is a fact that you are a coward. You are simply ignoring the consequences of your vote. Maybe that is calling you names, but they are true names.
Did you get out of bed the wrong side, Jeremy?
I don't really find your post acceptable, when aimed at another poster who just happened to vote differently than you.
He is no more to blame for the loss of jobs than anyone else here.
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He isn't any more responsible than you are.
No matter that he voted for Brexit.
This sounds like something that was going to happen Brexit or no, because it's only in part, according to NS.
If it hadn't happened I wouldn't have been doing what I did this morning. It's not all down to Brexit, but that and its outcomes are the specific straw that broke this specific camel's back. The outcome is in that part down to that choice,
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It is a fact that you are a coward. You are simply ignoring the consequences of your vote. Maybe that is calling you names, but they are true names.
I think me and you are done.
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He isn't any more responsible than you are.
That's the beauty of the referendum. Everybody who voted leave has a share of the responsibility. So, yes, he is more responsible than me.
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Did you get out of bed the wrong side, Jeremy?
I don't really find your post acceptable, when aimed at another poster who just happened to vote differently than you.
He is no more to blame for the loss of jobs than anyone else here.
Yes he is. As a leave voter, he is directly responsible. And he hasn't even so much as acknowledged the fact.
And please stop telling me what to think.
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I think me and you are done.
Still unable to confront the consequences of your actions, I see.
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Did you get out of bed the wrong side, Jeremy?
I don't really find your post acceptable, when aimed at another poster who just happened to vote differently than you.
He is no more to blame for the loss of jobs than anyone else here.
If the jobs are in part lost because of those voying to leave then, yes, they are more responsible
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Still unable to confront the consequences of your actions, I see.
No just unwilling to be your whipping boy, talk to the hand, I'm done.
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Stop being inconsistent. If you think this is for the best you are happy with the effects.
I disagree with this assessment.
"This is for the best" usually means that in that person's opinion the positive consequences outweigh the negatives. I don't remember hearing it used to mean all the consequences are positive. And the programmes I have watched about why some people voted Leave indicate that the positive and negative consequences they envisaged were not solely in terms of economic consequences.
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I disagree with this assessment.
"This is for the best" usually means that in that person's opinion the positive consequences outweigh the negatives. I don't remember hearing it used to mean all the consequences are positive. And the programmes I have watched about why some people voted Leave indicate that the positive and negative consequences they envisaged were not solely in terms of economic consequences.
And being willing to accept responsibility for those negative consequences, which seems as if jakswan isn't
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No just unwilling to be your whipping boy, talk to the hand, I'm done.
You set yourself up for it. When are you going to face your responsibility?
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"This is for the best" usually means that in that person's opinion the positive consequences outweigh the negatives. I don't remember hearing it used to mean all the consequences are positive.
In this case "is happy with" means "thinks is an acceptable price for the perceived positive benefits". It would be nice to hear Jakswan say that the loss of NS's and his colleagues' contracts is an acceptable price for whatever the benefits of Brexit are, but at the moment he doesn't even seem to want to acknowledge them.
And the programmes I have watched about why some people voted Leave indicate that the positive and negative consequences they envisaged were not solely in terms of economic consequences.
I'd agree with that. The problem id that the economic consequences are often down played in favour of the other more "romantic" consequences, but it's the economic consequences that are the ones individual people actually notice. It's the economic consequences that cause people to lose their jobs whereas the "romantic" consequences - e.g. taking back our borders or taking back control from the EU - will be completely unnoticeable to most people.
It's also a tragedy that many of the leaders of the Brexit campaign won't be feeling the economic consequences. Boris Johnson has a plum job in the cabinet and Nigel Farage is still drawing a salary from the EU as an MEP. Even when he gets booted out in a couple of years he'll still be financially nicely off. Of the leading Brexit campaigners, only Michael Gove is in need of employment, but I'm sure he is financially secure.
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NS
Yes I would agree that the people who voted Leave are responsible for the reasonably foreseeable or predicted positive and negative consequences of their vote.
I think it is the responsibility of those who vote to research and educate themselves to the possible outcomes, weigh up the likelihood of the positive and negative consequences before they vote.
For some Leave voters, the negative economic consequences for others in their community such as people losing jobs, was less important than trying to stop political union or free movement of labour within the EU.
On Panorama some people said they had voted Leave even though they thought they would be economically worse off in the short-term and could lose their jobs. They thought it would be beneficial to their kids in the long term as the ability to limit immigration that they hoped for by voting Leave would mean the existing infrastructure in Britain would not be put under even more strain with additional new people coming into the country. They thought this meant there would be more chance of their kids having access to the limited infrastructure that Labour and Tory governments were not investing in sufficiently, such as school places, university places, apprenticeships, health.
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You set yourself up for it. When are you going to face your responsibility?
When are you going to?
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When are you going to?
I voted to remain. If my side had prevailed, NS and his colleagues would probably not be losing their contracts. My conscience is clear.
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Retail sales rose in July despite Brexit slump fears, report finds
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37016123
Sounds good
Apparently up from this time last year.
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The credible sources that you and Davey cited predicted a 0.5 % short term technical recession, looks like they were wrong but growth has slowed. Contrary to NS nonsense I'm not happy that anyone should lose out.
I still think we will be better off in the long term.
Churchill's wife tried to console him upon losing the 1945 election saying: ‘It may well be a blessing in disguise’.
He replied: ‘At the moment it seems quite effectively disguised.’
Likewise, the 'blessings' of Brexit are exceedingly well disguised and if thing's actually do get better in the long term, it is likely to be the very long term.
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I voted to remain. If my side had prevailed, NS and his colleagues would probably not be losing their contracts. My conscience is clear.
And by doing so you supported for the continuance of that venal institution the EU who have pushed the Greeks into near starvation - shame on you!!!
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And by doing so you supported for the continuance of that venal institution the EU who have pushed the Greeks into near starvation - shame on you!!!
Greek politicians chose to join the EURO, knowing that they didn't meet the criteria for entry. Sure, the Greek people have had a bad deal from their duplicitous politicians -
JUST LIKE WE HAVE
The British people were naive enough to believe all those BREXIT LIES.
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And by doing so you supported for the continuance of that venal institution the EU who have pushed the Greeks into near starvation - shame on you!!!
The reason the Greeks are in the state they are in is almost entirely their own fault. Nobody made them lie about their accounts or join the Euro. Nobody makes tax evasion in Greece a "national sport" except the Greeks.
Also it's probably not worth bringing this up because you are incapable of understanding it but: the Eurozone is not the EU. OK.
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The reason the Greeks are in the state they are in is almost entirely their own fault. Nobody made them lie about their accounts or join the Euro. Nobody makes tax evasion in Greece a "national sport" except the Greeks.
Also it's probably not worth bringing this up because you are incapable of understanding it but: the Eurozone is not the EU. OK.
Except Brussels knew what was going on and approved of it because having the Euro and not having the Greeks there (the founders of democracy) would have been, in their eyes, absurd.
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Except Brussels knew what was going on and approved of it because having the Euro and not having the Greeks there (the founders of democracy) would have been, in their eyes, absurd.
Do you make this tripe up all by yourself or do you have someone do it for you?
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Except Brussels knew what was going on and approved of it
Evidence please.
because having the Euro and not having the Greeks there (the founders of democracy) would have been, in their eyes, absurd.
No, it was France that said that. It's obviously a non sequitur and I expect that, if the real state of the Greek economy had been known, they wouldn't be part of the Euro now.
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Do you make this tripe up all by yourself or do you have someone do it for you?
What makes you think it is tripe?
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Evidence please.
And what would you deem to be evidence?
No, it was France that said that.
I don't care who actually said it they are all the EU/Brussels.
It's obviously a non sequitur and I expect that, if the real state of the Greek economy had been known, they wouldn't be part of the Euro now.
You really aren't taking that position are you? They knew.
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And what would you deem to be evidence?
Some sort of contemporary documentation from the EU should do it.
I don't care who actually said it they are all the EU/Brussels.
France is not the EU, it's only a member state just like the UK.
You really aren't taking that position are you? They knew.
I doubt if even the Greek government of the time knew the state of the Greek economy.
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The pound has briefly hit parity with the Euro
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37107945
The Euro is allegedly a basket case currency, so where does that leave Sterling?
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The pound has briefly hit parity with the Euro
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37107945
The Euro is allegedly a basket case currency, so where does that leave Sterling?
We're just bouncing off the bottom because of a blip, the Euro is eating mud.
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We're just bouncing off the bottom because of a blip, the Euro is eating mud.
If the Euro is eating mud, we must be several feet under it now.
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If the Euro is eating mud, we must be several feet under it now.
You have still failed to learn how to read. Look up the word bounce.
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You have still failed to learn how to read. Look up the word bounce.
Let's wait for this bounce to happen then.
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Let's wait for this bounce to happen then.
I couldn't agree with you more - all good things come to those who wait.
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And some will have to wait a very long time for this Brexit disaster to sort itself out.
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And some will have to wait a very long time for this Brexit disaster to sort itself out.
Only those who whinge on about it!!!
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Only those who whinge on about it!!!
A lot of leave supporters are regretting it now!
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A lot of leave supporters are regretting it now!
A lot? Go on then name say half of them.
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A lot? Go on then name say half of them.
Strangely, there are a significant number of people who actually believed those Brexiteer lies. It would be extremely interesting to do a poll to see how many Leave voters now feel betrayed.
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Strangely, there are a significant number of people who actually believed those Brexiteer lies. It would be extremely interesting to do a poll to see how many Leave voters now feel betrayed.
It would be very interesting indeed.
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NHS faces cuts. Where are Johnson, Gove and Leadsom now?......probably voting for them.
Good moment for Johnson to resign since the pledge to put more money into the NHS has gone the other way. Go on Boris do the decent think and make a stand for what Brexit was all about.
Cuts were coming anyway, Brexit or not.
Brexiteers.....bit of a phyrric victory what?
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More of the wonderful side effects from Brexit and its fans:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/27/brexit-millions-risk-pension-shortfall-city
ITs almost like Brexiteers had no financial knowledge at all. ::)
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More of the wonderful side effects from Brexit and its fans:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/27/brexit-millions-risk-pension-shortfall-city
ITs almost like Brexiteers had no financial knowledge at all. ::)
Those voting to leave the EU seemed to have misjudged what it would mean for the UK in terms of the economy.
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Floo, Jack asked a reasonable question.
Quote from: Floo on August 20, 2016, 05:07:39 PM
A lot of leave supporters are regretting it now!
Jack: A lot? Go on then name say half of them.
I found this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-second-eu-referendum-leave-voters-regret-bregret-choice-in-millions-a7113336.html
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Those voting to leave the EU seemed to have misjudged what it would mean for the UK in terms of the economy.
No, I don't think so. I think they just decided that they are happy to accept the consequences.
I read an article a while back that claimed that the Remainers lost because they concentrated on the economic consequences rather than the other issues (that includes me). For most people, the economics are what will impact them but they have experienced economic downturns before, so they accept the risk and look at the shiny patriotic Brexit promises of taking our country back.
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No, I don't think so. I think they just decided that they are happy to accept the consequences.
I read an article a while back that claimed that the Remainers lost because they concentrated on the economic consequences rather than the other issues (that includes me). For most people, the economics are what will impact them but they have experienced economic downturns before, so they accept the risk and look at the shiny patriotic Brexit promises of taking our country back.
I rather doubt they are happy to accept the consequences if it hits them in the pocket!
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No, I don't think so. I think they just decided that they are happy to accept the consequences.
I read an article a while back that claimed that the Remainers lost because they concentrated on the economic consequences rather than the other issues (that includes me). For most people, the economics are what will impact them but they have experienced economic downturns before, so they accept the risk and look at the shiny patriotic Brexit promises of taking our country back.
I don't think it is a simple as that.
The remain campaign made the emotional argument for 'Independence' and 'Freedom' and dismissed the economic arguments with idiotic comments about the 'Establishment' and 'Experts' - plus several blatant lies, such as the supposed £350 million pounds per week that we would save.
A lot of Leave voters are starting to realise that they were duped by this and are not happy and will be considerably less so when the economic realities fully 'kick-in'
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More of the wonderful side effects from Brexit and its fans:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/27/brexit-millions-risk-pension-shortfall-city
ITs almost like Brexiteers had no financial knowledge at all. ::)
Financial knowledge, political knowledge etc, etc.
I suppose the trouble is the media where you have one wing providing bread and circuses for the people and the other wing, The BBC promoting elitism in news, financial and political coverage and bread and circuses for the rest of us.
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More of the wonderful side effects from Brexit and its fans:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/27/brexit-millions-risk-pension-shortfall-city
ITs almost like Brexiteers had no financial knowledge at all. ::)
I think that there are two kinds of Brexiteer: Those who haven't a clue about anything and those who know very well how to exploit financial instability to make a killing!
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I rather doubt they are happy to accept the consequences if it hits them in the pocket!
But there's the "it won't happen to me" thing.
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This certainly is better news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37242804
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This certainly is better news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37242804
But I wouldn't break-open the vintage champagne just yet, it's very early days. The low pound has made exports cheaper, but the downside is that it's also made imports more expensive which means that there is a significant cost-of-living increase in the pipeline, which could lead lead to an inflationary spiral with wages chasing prices, which means that we become less competitive and exports drop.
It's all happened before.
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The Independent's Economics Editor discusses leaving the Single Market
It's not pretty (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/this-is-what-would-actually-happen-if-we-implemented-the-brexit-economic-plans-suggested-by-a7236816.html). We need to stop this madness now.
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The Independent's Economics Editor discusses leaving the Single Market
It's not pretty (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/this-is-what-would-actually-happen-if-we-implemented-the-brexit-economic-plans-suggested-by-a7236816.html). We need to stop this madness now.
Its not going to be stopped. As you have seen on here there are enough economic incompetents around, both in government and in the population at large, who are going to push us all the way out with no regard for the consequences. Thoroughly depressing.
As ever it comes back to the question what does Brexit mean? It clearly means different things to different Brexiters.
As such it is impossible to even guess at what the eventual settlement will be. The only thing that is certain is that it will be detrimental. And for all the bluster and banter of some on here there is simply no way around the pain that is going to be caused. It will be toothache or very bad toothache - and all the dentists will have hopped it to Australia.
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Its not going to be stopped. As you have seen on here there are enough economic incompetents around, both in government and in the population at large, who are going to push us all the way out with no regard for the consequences. Thoroughly depressing.
As ever it comes back to the question what does Brexit mean? It clearly means different things to different Brexiters.
As such it is impossible to even guess at what the eventual settlement will be. The only thing that is certain is that it will be detrimental. And for all the bluster and banter of some on here there is simply no way around the pain that is going to be caused. It will be toothache or very bad toothache - and all the dentists will have hopped it to Australia.
Joseph E. Stiglitz, Nobel Prize winner in economics, thinks diametrically the opposite. And he is not the only one, by any means. So, on what economic grounds - I trust you are an economist - do you make the above assertions?
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Joseph E. Stiglitz, Nobel Prize winner in economics, thinks diametrically the opposite. And he is not the only one, by any means. So, on what economic grounds - I trust you are an economist - do you make the above assertions?
I sincerely hope he is proved right. I just don't think he will be. We can trade economists till the sun goes down. It doesn't change the fact that we are cutting ourselves out of an economic block that we have currently got good trading terms with - and after our exit we will have less favourable terms with.
Anyway I thought it was just about stopping the migrants form coming and putting a strain on all our services. It will all be fine and dandy once they've all gone home and all the good old English lads (and lasses - don't want to be accused of being sexist) get out in the fields and pick the lettuces.
I trust that your questioning of my economic credentials is done so from a position of similar economic knowledge ;)
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Its not going to be stopped. As you have seen on here there are enough economic incompetents around, both in government and in the population at large, who are going to push us all the way out with no regard for the consequences. Thoroughly depressing.
As ever it comes back to the question what does Brexit mean? It clearly means different things to different Brexiters.
As such it is impossible to even guess at what the eventual settlement will be. The only thing that is certain is that it will be detrimental. And for all the bluster and banter of some on here there is simply no way around the pain that is going to be caused. It will be toothache or very bad toothache - and all the dentists will have hopped it to Australia.
The Brexit bunch will no doubt blame everyone but their idiot selves when the proverbial really hits the fan.
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I sincerely hope he is proved right. I just don't think he will be. We can trade economists till the sun goes down. It doesn't change the fact that we are cutting ourselves out of an economic block that we have currently got good trading terms with - and after our exit we will have less favourable terms with.
Anyway I thought it was just about stopping the migrants form coming and putting a strain on all our services. It will all be fine and dandy once they've all gone home and all the good old English lads (and lasses - don't want to be accused of being sexist) get out in the fields and pick the lettuces.
I trust that your questioning of my economic credentials is done so from a position of similar economic knowledge ;)
Brexit was about migration, sovereignty and finding our own way in the world. as we always have.
With regard to my economic credentials, I have none, the same as everyone else on here, that's why I quoted the best available authority - Joseph E.Stiglitz, rather than rely on second and third rate, uninformed, scare-mongering.
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Brexit was about migration, sovereignty and finding our own way in the world. as we always have.
With regard to my economic credentials, I have none, the same as everyone else on here, that's why I quoted the best available authority - Joseph E.Stiglitz, rather than rely on second and third rate, uninformed, scare-mongering.
Finding our own way? What by subjugating other countries and in essence asset stripping them. Im not sure that will work again. As i said you can trade economists all night. You think thee wont be a price to pay. I and a lot of other economists think you are wrong. Time will tell.
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Finding our own way? What by subjugating other countries and in essence asset stripping them. Im not sure that will work again. As i said you can trade economists all night. You think thee wont be a price to pay. I and a lot of other economists think you are wrong. Time will time will tell
"Subjugating other countries and asset-stripping them"?? What century are you living in? I don't know how things will pan out; but we are talking here about months and years ahead, and nobody, certainly not the scare-mongers, or Osborne/Cameron followers can know. I have hope and I can find lots of informed people who think so, too. It was the hysteria and scare-mongering that caused the dip within 12 hours of Brexit; but now, we are returning to reality. Save us from these hysterical and uninformed scare-mongers. Fortunately, people are now getting wise to such tactics of despair.
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The Brexit bunch will no doubt blame everyone but their idiot selves when the proverbial hits the fan
No sign of any facts or figures to back up such a comment, of course. Unless you can prove otherwise.
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Finding our own way? What by subjugating other countries and in essence asset stripping them. Im not sure that will work again. As i said you can trade economists all night. You think thee wont be a price to pay. I and a lot of other economists think you are wrong. Time will tell.
Brits were very good at that in the past!
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I sincerely hope he is proved right. I just don't think he will be. We can trade economists till the sun goes down. It doesn't change the fact that we are cutting ourselves out of an economic block that we have currently got good trading terms with - and after our exit we will have less favourable terms with.
Anyway I thought it was just about stopping the migrants form coming and putting a strain on all our services. It will all be fine and dandy once they've all gone home and all the good old English lads (and lasses - don't want to be accused of being sexist) get out in the fields and pick the lettuces.
I trust that your questioning of my economic credentials is done so from a position of similar economic knowledge ;)
There's more to the globe than just the EU!!! Especially as the EU is stagnating.
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Joseph E. Stiglitz, Nobel Prize winner in economics, thinks diametrically the opposite. And he is not the only one, by any means. So, on what economic grounds - I trust you are an economist - do you make the above assertions?
Yes, there is an argument that 'on paper' Britain could prosper outside the EU, but I'd wager that not one of these economists has a clue on how to turn the hypothetical possibilities into solid trade agreements and meanwhile we lose a large proportion of our European trade.
And of course the thing is, it's generally not too difficult to find people who want to sell you stuff, but finding customers for your goods tends to be a bit trickier.
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Yes, there is an argument that 'on paper' Britain could prosper outside the EU, but I'd wager that not one of these economists has a clue on how to turn the hypothetical possibilities into solid trade agreements and meanwhile we lose a large proportion of our European trade.
And of course the thing is, it's generally not too difficult to find people who want to sell you stuff, but finding customers for your goods tends to be a bit trickier.
This assumes we are going to lose (or much reduced) the trade with the EU, which we will not be the case because they can't afford to be tough on us. They have more to lose with Brexit than we do. Anyway, in 2 odd years time the EU will be very much different and weaker, not only economically but politically.
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This assumes we are going to lose (or much reduced) the trade with the EU, which we will not be the case because they can't afford to be tough on us. They have more to lose with Brexit than we do. Anyway, in 2 odd years time the EU will be very much different and weaker, not only economically but politically.
I wouldn't hold your breath!
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Yes, there is an argument that 'on paper' Britain could prosper outside the EU, but I'd wager that not one of these economists has a clue on how to turn the hypothetical possibilities into solid trade agreements and meanwhile we lose a large proportion of our European trade.
And of course the thing is, it's generally not too difficult to find people who want to sell you stuff, but finding customers for your goods tends to be a bit trickier.
Good day, L.A.
I don't suppose there are very many economists who would be effective negotiators. But that's not their area of expertise. We have professionals whose job it will be to negotiate deals. Of course, it is the essence of trade that "we will buy from you, but you will have to buy from us." We produce enough quality goods to make us attractive trading partners. When all the bluster and posturing is done, we are in a good position to do deals. The EU, us, and the rest of the world, need each other.
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Good day, L.A.
I don't suppose there are very many economists who would be effective negotiators. But that's not their area of expertise. We have professionals whose job it will be to negotiate deals. Of course, it is the essence of trade that "we will buy from you, but you will have to buy from us." We produce enough quality goods to make us attractive trading partners. When all the bluster and posturing is done, we are in a good position to do deals. The EU, us, and the rest of the world, need each other.
Hi BA,
one of the problems is that we don't have trade negotiators and we won't have a lot a time to put arrangements in place after article 50. It is possible that eventually we might secure the kinds of trade deals that we need, but it is likely to be a tough journey to get there - if we get there.
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Hi BA,
one of the problems is that we don't have trade negotiators and we won't have a lot a time to put arrangements in place after article 50. It is possible that eventually we might secure the kinds of trade deals that we need, but it is likely to be a tough journey to get there - if we get there.
L.A.
I believe the Government Department set up to deal with Brexit, is now recruiting personnel. It will obviously take time to get it all up and running effectively. No doubt that is one of the reasons Theresa May is holding out before triggering Article 50.
Very warm here. Hope you are coping where you are!
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L.A.
I believe the Government Department set up to deal with Brexit, is now recruiting personnel. It will obviously take time to get it all up and running effectively. No doubt that is one of the reasons Theresa May is holding out before triggering Article 50.
Very warm here. Hope you are coping where you are!
Hi BA,
quite warm here at Radcliffe on Trent, you are just across town aren't you?
The problem is that time will be of the essence, we can't just put all our industry 'on hold' for a couple of years while they sort things out. Rather worryingly, there are still Brexiteers talking about simply proceeding using World Trade Organisation rules which would mean a lot of foreign companies moving out with all the redundancies and loss of tax revenue and foreign exchange that would follow..
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Hi BA,
quite warm here at Radcliffe on Trent, you are just across town aren't you?
The problem is that time will be of the essence, we can't just put all our industry 'on hold' for a couple of years while they sort things out. Rather worryingly, there are still Brexiteers talking about simply proceeding using World Trade Organisation rules which would mean a lot of foreign companies moving out with all the redundancies and loss of tax revenue and foreign exchange that would follow..
Hi again, L.A.
I'm in Bulwell now, having down-sized from Lenton. I came here in face of Bulwell's quite unpromising reputation. I have found it to be a caring, friendly, lively and down-to-earth, place, and I have some quite wonderful neighbours.
As to all these foreign companies moving out: I very much doubt it. Maybe one or two along the line; but they are only here in the first place because it is to their advantage. They know what's a good deal, and I see no reason for that situation to significantly change.
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I think it's something like 30 years before that will be the case and then the NHS will have ended thanks to Brexiteers.
The NHS will have ended in 30 years? You've been listening to the unctuous Osborne too long. Nobody can predict anything that far ahead with the slightest degree of certainty. You Remain losers should stop playing our country down. We should all now be getting down to make the best possible use of the situation. Why would anyone want it any other way?
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There are a number of issues coming down the line, especially if it's going to be hard Brexit. First, tariffs will be applied, although these vary from 2% to 10%, as far as I can see. Will this lead to a shrinkage in trade? Unclear. Second, if the City loses passporting, this might involve some firms moving to the EU. Unclear also. Third, loss of investment. Unclear. Fourth, slowdown in growth. Unclear.
If it's soft Brexit, all change, but seems unlikely at the moment.
So that's all very clear! The govt is hiding in plain sight, as it's difficult to talk about stuff that you don't know. It's two years at least to leaving the EU, so likely effects are guesswork.
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Hi again, L.A.
I'm in Bulwell now, having down-sized from Lenton. I came here in face of Bulwell's quite unpromising reputation. I have found it to be a caring, friendly, lively and down-to-earth, place, and I have some quite wonderful neighbours.
As to all these foreign companies moving out: I very much doubt it. Maybe one or two along the line; but they are only here in the first place because it is to their advantage. They know what's a good deal, and I see no reason for that situation to significantly change.
They reckon that car manufactures make about a 5% profit. I have heard WTO tariff rates of up to 50% quoted recently on the radio discussions. If it turned out to be anything like that, the Japanese motor manufacturers based in the UK would be insane not to shut up shop immediately.
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Yes, hard Brexit means WTO rules, which seem to involve tariffs, although 50% sounds very high. I've read about 10%, but even that is a brake on trade.
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Yes, hard Brexit means WTO rules, which seem to involve tariffs, although 50% sounds very high. I've read about 10%, but even that is a brake on trade.
10%tariff would make most of these industries unprofitable.
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Presumably, they are trying to square the circle - that is, get good trade deals, without tariffs, and retaining passporting, without having to retain freedom of movement. Sounds improbable, verging on impossible, but there is talk of a bespoke deal.
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Presumably, they are trying to square the circle - that is, get good trade deals, without tariffs, and retaining passporting, without having to retain freedom of movement. Sounds improbable, verging on impossible, but there is talk of a bespoke deal.
It sounds as if it's going to become a game of brinkmanship, but the stakes are very high for the UK.
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It sounds as if it's going to become a game of brinkmanship, but the stakes are very high for the UK.
L.A.
But that is all speculation, pure and simple.. Nobody knows what will happen, though I wouldn't mind betting there'll be a few surprises along the way. But always bear in mind, we are looking at maybe years ahead. A lot can happen in the total world economy, in our own, and of course in the shambolic EU.
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L.A.
But that is all speculation, pure and simple.. Nobody knows what will happen, though I wouldn't mind betting there'll be a few surprises along the way. But always bear in mind, we are looking at maybe years ahead. A lot can happen in the total world economy, in our own, and of course in the shambolic EU.
I think you're right that nobody knows how the process will turn out, but the two sides have taken-up positions that are totally incomparable. The EU have stated categorically that there will be no access to the single market without free movement of labour while the British government state equally categorically that there will be no free movement of labour. If no one backs down Britain will not have access to the single marker with all the massive problems that implies. The Brexiteers point out that they could retaliate with tariffs on EU imports, but this would be a very bad option for everyone . . . pure brinkmanship, who will blink first?
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I think you're right that nobody knows how the process will turn out, but the two sides have taken-up positions that are totally incomparable. The EU have stated categorically that there will be no access to the single market without free movement of labour while the British government state equally categorically that there will be no free movement of labour. If no one backs down Britain will not have access to the single marker with all the massive problems that implies. The Brexiteers point out that they could retaliate with tariffs on EU imports, but this would be a very bad option for everyone . . . pure brinkmanship, who will blink first?
Good morning L.A.,
I think at this stage both sides, particularly Juncker, are busy posturing. What they contend now, and what they will actually come to terms about are probably a good distance apart. I think we also have to factor in the possibility of serious changes or crises in the EU and the world economy generally. Expect the unexpected. As Harold Macmillan said in a time of crisis, "events, dear boy, events." Nobody really has any idea how it will all evolve, and those making predictions are wasting their time.
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This assumes we are going to lose (or much reduced) the trade with the EU, which we will not be the case because they can't afford to be tough on us.
Yes they can.
Imagine the worst case scenario: all trade with the EU ceases. We would lose 44% of our foreign trade, they would lose about 15%. But it's worse than that, many companies would be forced to leave the UK and relocate to the EU.
Obviously, that's a scenario that will not happen, but what will happen is a miniature version of that. Consider what Nissan will do if every car they export from Washington to an EU country is subject to a 10% tariff (as is allowed under WTO rules). What do you think they will do (bear in mind Nissan is French controlled)?
They have more to lose with Brexit than we do.
Utterly wrong. What planet are you living on? It's not Earth.
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Yes they can.
Imagine the worst case scenario: all trade with the EU ceases. We would lose 44% of our foreign trade, they would lose about 15%. But it's worse than that, many companies would be forced to leave the UK and relocate to the EU.
Obviously, that's a scenario that will not happen, but what will happen is a miniature version of that. Consider what Nissan will do if every car they export from Washington to an EU country is subject to a 10% tariff (as is allowed under WTO rules). What do you think they will do (bear in mind Nissan is French controlled)?
Utterly wrong. What planet are you living on? It's not Earth.
But the thing is who is included in that 15%. Some big names who are going to lobby Brussels to give us a nice deal or else they will lose out big time. The EU will also lose our membership fee so putting more pressure on the poorer ones to pay in more and get less out, so they can't afford to lose our £60 billion trade deficit we have with them.
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But the thing is who is included in that 15%. Some big names who are going to lobby Brussels to give us a nice deal or else they will lose out big time. The EU will also lose our membership fee so putting more pressure on the poorer ones to pay in more and get less out, so they can't afford to lose our £60 billion trade deficit we have with them.
Economically, it is in everybody's interests for us to have a free trade deal with the EU, but most of you Brexiters seem to be against that, so it won't happen.
The likes of BMW (as an example) would definitely prefer no tariffs, but they still have the rest of the EU to export to so, while tariffs will hurt them, they won't hurt them as much as they will hurt Jaguar. Faced with 10% tariffs to export to the EU, the owners of Jaguar will have a strong incentive to move production to the EU. The incentive will be even stronger for Toyota and Nissan who have no historical British links.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37374888
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In one sentence the Bank has revealed it is ready to upgrade its growth forecasts for the UK economy.
"The Committee now expects less of a slowing in UK GDP growth in the second half of 2016," it said, referring to the Monetary Policy Committee of Bank economists and external experts that sets UK interest rates.
The key point - the Bank's internal judgement is that growth in Q3 (that's July to September) will now be between 0.2% and 0.3%, a pretty chunky upgrade on its August forecast of 0.1%.
It's not an official forecast, but given the Q3 growth figure will be announced before the next meeting of the MPC in November, it is as close as we are going to get.
Those who predicted the possibility of a recession following a vote to leave the European Union - which included the governor of the Bank of England - are having to revise their positions.
The UK economy has performed more robustly than many expected.
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Economically, it is in everybody's interests for us to have a free trade deal with the EU, but most of you Brexiters seem to be against that, so it won't happen.
The likes of BMW (as an example) would definitely prefer no tariffs, but they still have the rest of the EU to export to so, while tariffs will hurt them, they won't hurt them as much as they will hurt Jaguar. Faced with 10% tariffs to export to the EU, the owners of Jaguar will have a strong incentive to move production to the EU. The incentive will be even stronger for Toyota and Nissan who have no historical British links.
I think we can quite confidently predict that if we end up with significant EU tariffs Toyota, Nissan and probably a number of others will simply shut up shop.
I wonder if those workers in Sunderland who so enthusiastically voted Brexit will appreciate the irony?
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I think we can quite confidently predict that if we end up with significant EU tariffs Toyota, Nissan and probably a number of others will simply shut up shop.
I wonder if those workers in Sunderland who so enthusiastically voted Brexit will appreciate the irony?
L.A., morning.
This is all a waste of time: suppose, might, predict, theorise, what if. None of us know how it will all end. I don't think anyone, anywhere, does. We have to wait and see, and there's nothing else to be done by the likes of us. Though I guess the Remainers will go on predicting gloom, as it's the only thing left to them to try and come to terms with the reality of being losers.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37374888
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In one sentence the Bank has revealed it is ready to upgrade its growth forecasts for the UK economy.
"The Committee now expects less of a slowing in UK GDP growth in the second half of 2016," it said, referring to the Monetary Policy Committee of Bank economists and external experts that sets UK interest rates.
The key point - the Bank's internal judgement is that growth in Q3 (that's July to September) will now be between 0.2% and 0.3%, a pretty chunky upgrade on its August forecast of 0.1%.
It's not an official forecast, but given the Q3 growth figure will be announced before the next meeting of the MPC in November, it is as close as we are going to get.
Those who predicted the possibility of a recession following a vote to leave the European Union - which included the governor of the Bank of England - are having to revise their positions.
The UK economy has performed more robustly than many expected.
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Unless there is some kind of 'secret plan' that no one is admitting, I don't see any basis for short-term optimism. The current up-term we are seeing can be attributed to the lower pound boosting exports which is fair enough, but the downside is that imports will cost more - and that hasn't really worked through the system yet.
Maybe the future will be rosy, but there are a great many uncertainties ahead and it will be a long and difficult road. I doubt that I will ever live to see the country as prosperous as it was on the 23rd of June 2016.
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L.A., morning.
This is all a waste of time: suppose, might, predict, theorise, what if. None of us know how it will all end. I don't think anyone, anywhere, does. We have to wait and see, and there's nothing else to be done by the likes of us. Though I guess the Remainers will go on predicting gloom, as it's the only thing left to them to try and come to terms with the reality of being losers.
Morning B.A.
of course politicians have been known to perform 'U' turns and (occasionally) not keep their promises :o - but the way that the 'Red Lines' are set at the moment seems to exclude tariff-free access to the EU, which would lead to the dire consequences I have been pointing out.
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Morning B.A.
of course politicians have been known to perform 'U' turns and (occasionally) not keep their promises :o - but the way that the 'Red Lines' are set at the moment seems to exclude tariff-free access to the EU, which would lead to the dire consequences I have been pointing out.
L.A., you are an extremely sensible person. Please don't let yourself be drawn into the doom and gloom scenario. I have faith in this country to do a fair and workable deal; and I am sure, in the final analysis, that the EU desires the same, and that accommodation will eventually be reached. It makes sense for all concerned to arrange a mutually acceptable deal: why would anyone want anything else? There is enough expertise, and sense, across the board to achieve that. I am not being unrealistic or naive : I am an optimist
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L.A., you are an extremely sensible person. Please don't let yourself be drawn into the doom and gloom scenario. I have faith in this country to do a fair and workable deal; and I am sure, in the final analysis, that the EU desires the same, and that accommodation will eventually be reached. It makes sense for all concerned to arrange a mutually acceptable deal: why would anyone want anything else? There is enough expertise, and sense, across the board to achieve that. I am not being unrealistic or naive : I am an optimist
I am sure that some kind of deal will eventually emerge but I fear that in most tangible aspects, it will be worse than what we had pre-brexit. (though some will claim that we have regained some kind of freedom)
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But look on the bright side, we'll have more powerful toasters.
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Economically, it is in everybody's interests for us to have a free trade deal with the EU, but most of you Brexiters seem to be against that, so it won't happen.
A trade deal is fine if it is the right one.
The likes of BMW (as an example) would definitely prefer no tariffs, but they still have the rest of the EU to export to so, while tariffs will hurt them, they won't hurt them as much as they will hurt Jaguar. Faced with 10% tariffs to export to the EU, the owners of Jaguar will have a strong incentive to move production to the EU. The incentive will be even stronger for Toyota and Nissan who have no historical British links.
What a terrible argument. "The rest of the EU" ? Most of it is run down and BMW sell more to us than most of the other EU members put together. We're one of their biggest markets.
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A trade deal is fine if it is the right one.
We have a tariff free trade deal with the EU now. There's no way we'll get anything better.
What a terrible argument.
By which you mean what a good argument that you can't counter.
"The rest of the EU" ? Most of it is run down and BMW sell more to us than most of the other EU members put together. We're one of their biggest markets.
Nonsense. BMW sells more cars in Germany than to the UK and then you can add France, Italy and Spain.
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We have a tariff free trade deal with the EU now. There's no way we'll get anything better.
Nonsense. BMW sells more cars in Germany than to the UK and then you can add France, Italy and Spain.
Your ripostes are so pitiful. The EU will suffer too if they play hardball. And if the tariffs are a few per cent it won't hurt. We gain in other ways.
We are still a substantial market that they can't afford to bugger up.
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Your ripostes are so pitiful.
You still have nothing, I see.
The EU will suffer too if they play hardball.
Everybody's going to suffer. We already know that, but the EU has more to lose if they don't play hardball than if they do.
And if the tariffs are a few per cent it won't hurt. We gain in other ways.
10% on the price of a Nissan is not "won't hurt".
We are still a substantial market that they can't afford to bugger up.
Actually they can because their buggering up of their opportunities in the UK will be as nothing compared to our buggering up of our opportunities in Europe. Also, bear in mind the political factors. We cannot be seen to do well out of this otherwise there might be moves in other countries to leave the EU.
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Everybody's going to suffer. We already know that, but the EU has more to lose if they don't play hardball than if they do.
Except it is the council of ministers who do the actual negotiations and the signals coming from them is one of working best for both sides.
10% on the price of a Nissan is not "won't hurt".
You can't read, which no surprise. I said a few %.
Actually they can because their buggering up of their opportunities in the UK will be as nothing compared to our buggering up of our opportunities in Europe. Also, bear in mind the political factors. We cannot be seen to do well out of this otherwise there might be moves in other countries to leave the EU.
BMW (my comment was in reference to them) and companies do not think in these overall terms they just look to making as much sales and profits that they can.
That is a fine line that the EU have to play but as there are many now losing faith in the EU system, including the people, it may transpire that it gets changed anyway so the easy deal we get will become EU policy for all member states.
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And if the tariffs are a few per cent it won't hurt. We gain in other ways.
That statement shows a profound ignorance typical of the Brexiteers. A great many manufacturing industries operate on very low profit margins, they make a good overall profit only because of the volumes they produce. On a Radio 4 program last week they stated that most car manufactures based in the UK operate on profit levels of around 5%. Stick 'a few percent' tariff on that and they are operating at a loss - and unlike the state sector, commercial companies can't operate at a loss for very long.
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That statement shows a profound ignorance typical of the Brexiteers. A great many manufacturing industries operate on very low profit margins, they make a good overall profit only because of the volumes they produce. On a Radio 4 program last week they stated that most car manufactures based in the UK operate on profit levels of around 5%. Stick 'a few percent' tariff on that and they are operating at a loss - and unlike the state sector, commercial companies can't operate at a loss for very long.
L.A., come on? A comment typical of Brexiteers. There are 17,000,000million of them!
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Except it is the council of ministers who do the actual negotiations and the signals coming from them is one of working best for both sides.
Yes, but if there is a conflict, they will choose the deal that works best for the EU. Furthermore, there are countries in the EU that won't ratify a deal that lets us of the hook too much.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that the EU will offer us a good deal with no tariffs, but we'll have to accept free movement of labour in return.
You can't read, which no surprise. I said a few %.
I said 10% because that is what the likely tariff for car imports will be.
BMW (my comment was in reference to them)
Why are you fitting on BMW? I only brought them up as an example. My comment applies ti EU manufacturers in general.
and companies do not think in these overall terms they just look to making as much sales and profits that they can.
Nobody said that tariffs won't hurt the likes of BMW, what they (I) said is that EU companies will be hurt less than British companies.
That is a fine line that the EU have to play but as there are many now losing faith in the EU system,
Are there? Support for the EU in the EU went up after the Brexit vote. It will go up again if Britain is shown to suffer as a result of this appalling decision. Politically, the EU needs to give us a tough time and we both agree that the EU sometimes does ignore economics in order to achieve a political end.
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L.A., come on? A comment typical of Brexiteers. There are 17,000,000million of them!
I agree, many Brexiters completely failed to grasp the concept of tariffs at all and what they would do to their jobs. This is one explanation for why Sunderland Nissan workers voted to slit their own throats.
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L.A., come on? A comment typical of Brexiteers. There are 17,000,000million of them!
B.A.
throughout the campaign and since, several prominant Brexiteers have made statements suggesting that 'just' a few percent export tariff would be of little consequence (as Jack did).
I'm afraid that they couldn't be more wrong! It would finish exporters with low margins.
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That statement shows a profound ignorance typical of the Brexiteers. A great many manufacturing industries operate on very low profit margins, they make a good overall profit only because of the volumes they produce. On a Radio 4 program last week they stated that most car manufactures based in the UK operate on profit levels of around 5%. Stick 'a few percent' tariff on that and they are operating at a loss - and unlike the state sector, commercial companies can't operate at a loss for very long.
Then the market would say that prices should rise a bit. We should learn to make things last a little longer.
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I agree, many Brexiters completely failed to grasp the concept of tariffs at all and what they would do to their jobs. This is one explanation for why Sunderland Nissan workers voted to slit their own throats.
It hasn't happened , and since you are not an economist, I see no reason to believe what you suggest.
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What will happen to Nissan Sunderland?
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What will happen to Nissan Sunderland?
Well, they're in the bottom three now, so they need a couple of wins pretty quickly!
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Well, they're in the bottom three now, so they need a couple of wins pretty quickly!
Sunderland stay up, or Nissan move. Hmmm, both not happening haha.
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Then the market would say that prices should rise a bit. We should learn to make things last a little longer.
That isn't that way that it works Jack. Although they obviously sell cars in the UK, companies such as Nissan set-up manufacturing facilities in the UK primarily to serve the EU.. These kinds of manufacturing operations are quite 'finely balanced' as there is not a great profit margin in manufacturing cars. What might seem a small increase in costs could potentially make the whole operation nonviable.
You say that 'the market would say that prices should rise a bit' - but what the market actually says is 'it's now cheaper to manufacture cars elsewhere'
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Yes, but if there is a conflict, they will choose the deal that works best for the EU. Furthermore, there are countries in the EU that won't ratify a deal that lets us of the hook too much.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that the EU will offer us a good deal with no tariffs, but we'll have to accept free movement of labour in return.
First of all, no way. We voted for control. As I said the big companies want no tariffs and they will get their way. The EU is at the point of some form of change due to its incompetence and this will be moulded towards what we are seeking.
I said 10% because that is what the likely tariff for car imports will be.
Likely? This is a new deal that is being negotiated so nothing is likely.
Why are you fitting on BMW? I only brought them up as an example. My comment applies ti EU manufacturers in general.
I'm referring to the big corporations because they are the ones with the clout.
Nobody said that tariffs won't hurt the likes of BMW, what they (I) said is that EU companies will be hurt less than British companies.
Can't see how if they work for the best deal for both. They (BMW etc.) are not out to hurt anyone if it means pain for them of any kind. They won't think, "Oh we're getting less hit than they are." All they look for and at are at their books and profits.
Are there? Support for the EU in the EU went up after the Brexit vote.
Really? The people are not happy about it and some are talking about less EU. Renzi showed his discontent at the Bratislava conference. Junckhead and Tusk clashed over the vision for the EU. I suggest you do some homework on the issue.
And to add to this some Belgium official said Hungary should be kicked out of the EU. Yes, everything looks happy and contented in the EU camp!!!
Politically, the EU needs to give us a tough time and we both agree that the EU sometimes does ignore economics in order to achieve a political end.
You mean it is cut its nose off to spit its face; drive itself into the ground!
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That isn't that way that it works Jack. Although they obviously sell cars in the UK, companies such as Nissan set-up manufacturing facilities in the UK primarily to serve the EU.. These kinds of manufacturing operations are quite 'finely balanced' as there is not a great profit margin in manufacturing cars. What might seem a small increase in costs could potentially make the whole operation nonviable.
You say that 'the market would say that prices should rise a bit' - but what the market actually says is 'it's now cheaper to manufacture cars elsewhere'
You might want to sell your soul to the devil but I don't. Sometimes you just have to make a break for it. But I don't think the deal for car manufactures will be affected because both sides will see the advantage not to mess up markets like this.
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You might want to sell your soul to the devil but I don't. Sometimes you just have to make a break for it. But I don't think the deal for car manufactures will be affected because both sides will see the advantage not to mess up markets like this.
Unless you want to follow the 'Venezuela model' it's the reality that we all have to live with. What's more, it was the Brexiteers who claimed to be the great proponents of the 'Free Market' - and the logic of free market means that you manufacture it the cheapest location.
It was those nasty old EU officials who wanted to try and keep these kinds of operation within Europe. (if you remember)
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Unless you want to follow the 'Venezuela model' it's the reality that we all have to live with. What's more, it was the Brexiteers who claimed to be the great proponents of the 'Free Market' - and the logic of free market means that you manufacture it the cheapest location.
It was those nasty old EU officials who wanted to try and keep these kinds of operation within Europe. (if you remember)
So it is a race to the bottom with the guy with the biggest gun wins - you think that is just and fair?
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So it is a race to the bottom with the guy with the biggest gun wins - you think that is just and fair?
So I'm assuming that you would opt for the Venezuela model then?
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It hasn't happened
Neither has Brexit. But when Brexit happens and the tariffs get slapped on, Nissan will be gone. Our banking industry will be gone. Scotland will be gone.
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Neither has Brexit. But when Brexit happens and the tariffs get slapped on, Nissan will be gone. Our banking industry will be gone. Scotland will be gone.
How do you know what brexit will mean.
How do you know Nissan will go?
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How do you know what brexit will mean.
How do you know Nissan will go?
If they face significant increases in costs through tariffs and/or difficulties in moving goods and workers around - Nissan and a whole load of other manufactures will leave Britain, for the very good reason that it would no longer make economic sense to remain here.
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If they face significant increases in costs through tariffs and/or difficulties in moving goods and workers around - Nissan and a whole load of other manufactures will leave Britain, for the very good reason that it would no longer make economic sense to remain here.
L.A. , morning, or rather, afternoon.
There's always that "if," when we talk about what these various companies will do. I actually think the Government is quite aware of all this and will be working to suit our best interests.
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L.A. , morning, or rather, afternoon.
There's always that "if," when we talk about what these various companies will do. I actually think the Government is quite aware of all this and will be working to suit our best interests.
You don't seem to think that of the govt pre Brexit, why do you think anything has changed?
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You don't seem to think that of the govt pre Brexit, why do you think anything has changed?
Morning, NS.
Something has changed, we have a different PM and a different regime, and critically it doesn't include the disgraced Cameron and Osborne. I'm sure you are aware of that really.
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Morning, NS.
Something has changed, we have a different PM and a different regime, and critically it doesn't include the disgraced Cameron and Osborne. I'm sure you are aware of that really.
But the same party, who all expressed their loyalty and confidence to Cameron, so if they are to be trusted to be different, they were lying then, so why should I trust them?
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But the same party, who all expressed their loyalty and confidence to Cameron, so if they are to be trusted to be different, they were lying then, do why should I trust them?
We all know how politicians behave. The difference now is that they have to follow Theresa May's policies, and I believe, though I'm not a Tory sympathiser, that she has more integrity than Cameron and will be a better leader of the country.
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We all know how politicians behave. The difference now is that they have to follow Theresa May's policies, and I believe, though I'm not a Tory sympathiser, that she has more integrity than Cameron and will be a better leader of the country.
and yet I still have people in govt who lied continually on both sides during the referendum, and who appear to have no agreement on a plan. Given the lying and lack of okan, why should I trust them?
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and yet I still have people in govt who lied continually on both sides during the referendum, and who appear to have no agreement on a plan. Given the lying and lack of okan, why should I trust them?
It may be for the wrong reason, but we trust them because if they don't get the job done, they lose theirs.
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It may be for the wrong reason, but we trust them because if they don't get the job done, they lose theirs.
No, that's madness. You trust people on the basis of the evidence. If they have lued and have no plan, there is reason not to trust them.
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No, that's madness. You trust people on the basis of the evidence. If they have lued and have no plan, there is reason not to trust them.
Those who were Remainers had to follow the dictates of Cameron: that is no longer so; and I believe that Theresa May can do the job with more integrity. If those Remainers left have doubts, they have an option, don't they?
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Those who were Remainers had to follow the dictates of Cameron: that is no longer so; and I believe that Theresa May can do the job with more integrity. If those Remainers left have doubts, they have an option, don't they?
What has this got to do with both sides lying and not having a plan?
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L.A. , morning, or rather, afternoon.
There's always that "if," when we talk about what these various companies will do. I actually think the Government is quite aware of all this and will be working to suit our best interests.
Of course, I agree. If we go for the 'soft' Brexit then we might get away with it - but there are a lot of 'hard Brexiteers' who will fight tooth and nail against any sane settlement.
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Of course, I agree. If we go for the 'soft' Brexit then we might get away with it - but there are a lot of 'hard Brexiteers' who will fight tooth and nail against any sane settlement.
I believe Theresa May will get it done the way she wants, and I think it will be, eventually, a good deal for UK.
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I believe Theresa May will get it done the way she wants, and I think it will be, eventually, a good deal for UK.
So as well as trusting a govt of liars with no plan, you illustrate that you don't understand the UK constitution.
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So as well as trusting a govt of liars with no plan, you illustrate that you don't understand the UK constitution.
Oh dear! Desperation time, I think. Tell me more about this unwritten Constitution.
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I believe Theresa May will get it done the way she wants, and I think it will be, eventually, a good deal for UK.
I certainly hope so but she will face a lot of opposition from all directions.
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Oh dear! Desperation time, I think. Tell me more about this unwritten Constitution.
well first of all it"s a common misconception that the constitution is unwritten as a whole. There are many written pieces of it made up of multiple pieces of legislation such as the Bill of Rights, the Settlement Act, The Acts of Union,and indeed the European Community Act which will need to be repealed at some point in the lead up to Brexit.
It's also a misconception to think that those parts of it not codified into legislation are some how non existent, as while they may be difficult to enforce in a court of law, would present extreme difficulties in not following. An example of this would be the Royal Prerogative, which while it now has a set of guidelines, is not part of legislation.
In addition there are of course a number of common law principles which while not part of legislation cover some parts of a constitution such as the case covering the rule that anything not prihibitrd specifucally is allowed.
Overall in this case, the idea that a Prime Minister has the necessary power to agree this sort of decision unilaterally, is negated by both the method of government control and feasibility given the primus inter pares approach we have.
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We all know how politicians behave. The difference now is that they have to follow Theresa May's policies, and I believe, though I'm not a Tory sympathiser, that she has more integrity than Cameron and will be a better leader of the country.
Theresa May was a Remainer and yet here she is leading a country into what she thinks is a worse future than staying in the EU.
That doesn't strike me as an example of integrity.
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Theresa May was a Remainer and yet here she is leading a country into what she thinks is a worse future than staying in the EU.
That doesn't strike me as an example of integrity.
Anybody who knows politics - not you, then - knows that Theresa May was a very luke-warm Remainer. Since she has become PM she is obliged to carry out the will of the majority with regard to the Referendum, and regardless of her personal inclination. What else could she do? She's not one of these idiots who pathetically call for a second Referendum.
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Anybody who knows politics - not you, then - knows that Theresa May was a very luke-warm Remainer.
But she was a Remainer.
Since she has become PM she is obliged to carry out the will of the majority with regard to the Referendum
So she has no integrity. She should either not have stood or she should stick by her principles.
What else could she do? She's not one of these idiots who pathetically call for a second Referendum.
I would have called a general election and stated in the manifesto that we would either not leave or go for the Norway option.
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But she was a Remainer.
So she has no integrity. She should either not have stood or she should stick by her principles.
I would have called a general election and stated in the manifesto that we would either not leave or go for the Norway option.
Unrealistic nonsense. Why should she call an election? The Referendum is over: Brexit is fact, an incontrovertible fact. And why, on this planet, should she go for the Norway option? Yes, she was a Remainer, but as anyone who knows anything about politics (again, not you, then!), a very reluctant one. Had she decided to call an election she would have swept the floor with the divided and inept Labour Part, thus strengtheing her position hugely. Good job she didn't, for you, eh?
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But she was a Remainer.
So she has no integrity. She should either not have stood or she should stick by her principles.
I would have called a general election and stated in the manifesto that we would either not leave or go for the Norway option.
She was a Remainer; but as anyone with political insight knows (again, not you, then), a reluctant one. She is now Prime Minister and it is her duty to carry out the will of the people expressed in the Referendum. And why on earth she should call an election is beyond me. And what nonsense are you talking about the Norway option? She will create our own deal, one that suits us. The decision is made and there is no need to cloud the issue. Had she decided to, by the way, she would have swept the floor with the sad Labour Party, and thus made her position massively secure.
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She is now Prime Minister and it is her duty to carry out the will of the people expressed in the Referendum.
And yet again dodging the central point which is rather like Christianity there are nearly as many versions of Brexit as there are people who voted for it.
Is it to stop free movement ? Is it to take back sovereignty? Is it to get free trade; free trade incidentally which is going to be a damn sight more expensive certainly in the short term; and from which many of our industries will struggle to recover from, if ever. Was it to give the ruling classes a black eye - which certainly seems to be the case for a considerable number of voters?
If so it is a classic case of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
So we all know Anthony that Brexit means Brexit. So yet again what does Brexit mean?
And until we know the answer to that how on Earth can we be expected to either accept it or reject it. Democratically I would say another referendum is an essential based on what is the outcome of talks. Of course we can't have talks with the EU until Article 50 is triggered so from that POV it is a Catch22 situation.
But I really do not see why I, or anyone else should accept a situation where we leave when we do not even know what is going to happen. Look here is a door - on the other side is the promised land or it could be a drop of 1,000 miles into the pit. So are you going to open the door? Nope I would like to go back to the office and do some more research into what is behind that door, thank you.
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And yet again dodging the central point which is rather like Christianity there are nearly as many versions of Brexit as there are people who voted for it.
Is it to stop free movement ? Is it to take back sovereignty? Is it to get free trade; free trade incidentally which is going to be a damn sight more expensive certainly in the short term; and from which many of our industries will struggle to recover from, if ever. Was it to give the ruling classes a black eye - which certainly seems to be the case for a considerable number of voters?
If so it is a classic case of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
So we all know Anthony that Brexit means Brexit. So yet again what does Brexit mean?
And until we know the answer to that how on Earth can we be expected to either accept it or reject it. Democratically I would say another referendum is an essential based on what is the outcome of talks. Of course we can't have talks with the EU until Article 50 is triggered so from that POV it is a Catch22 situation.
. . .
That really is the central problem. In his infinite wisdom Cameron allowed the electorate to vote on remaining in the EU without specifying an alternative - so all options are up for grabs.
May I think is a pragmatist, so we can only hope that she manages the damage limitation as well as possible.
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That really is the central problem. In his infinite wisdom Cameron allowed the electorate to vote on remaining in the EU without specifying an alternative - so all options are up for grabs.
May I think is a pragmatist, so we can only hope that she manages the damage limitation as well as possible.
but with a cabinet of zealots
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And yet again dodging the central point which is rather like Christianity there are nearly as many versions of Brexit as there are people who voted for it.
Is it to stop free movement ? Is it to take back sovereignty? Is it to get free trade; free trade incidentally which is going to be a damn sight more expensive certainly in the short term; and from which many of our industries will struggle to recover from, if ever. Was it to give the ruling classes a black eye - which certainly seems to be the case for a considerable number of voters?
If so it is a classic case of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
So we all know Anthony that Brexit means Brexit. So yet again what does Brexit mean?
And until we know the answer to that how on Earth can we be expected to either accept it or reject it. Democratically I would say another referendum is an essential based on what is the outcome of talks. Of course we can't have talks with the EU until Article 50 is triggered so from that POV it is a Catch22 situation.
But I really do not see why I, or anyone else should accept a situation where we leave when we do not even know what is going to happen. Look here is a door - on the other side is the promised land or it could be a drop of 1,000 miles into the pit. So are you going to open the door? Nope I would like to go back to the office and do some more research into what is behind that door, thank you.
We don't know what Brexit means in detail because the new, relevant, Department is now working on it. What we do know is that we are out of the EU, with its constrictions on our sovereignty and control of so much of our lives. That is what was voted for, and that is the end of it. This stupid talk of another election is the squealing of bad losers, and more to the point, is undemocratic: full stop. Are you people going to ask for a re-run of a General Election if the result doesn't suit you? Where does it end? We had a Referendum vote, and before-hand there was no talk of another election to ratify the consequences. It's rubbish, and dangerous rubbish if it was allowed to happen and set a precedent.
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It's rubbish, and dangerous rubbish
No you are talking dangerous rubbish. If it becomes clear that leaving so adversely affects our economy that it endangers ordinary people's standard of living it would be dangerous, irresponsible and stupid not to look at rethinking the situation.
So tell me Anthony Brexit means Brexit - but what does Brexit mean?
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If Brexit means Britain has to stand alone we will all be the losers. Apparently if we faced a military threat we haven't the resources to defend ourselves without the help of others. As I have said before Britain needs it European neighbours more than they probably need the us.
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No you are talking dangerous rubbish. If it becomes clear that leaving so adversely affects our economy that it endangers ordinary people's standard of living it would be dangerous, irresponsible and stupid not to look at rethinking the situation.
So tell me Anthony Brexit means Brexit - but what does Brexit mean?
Evert time we have a General Election we take the risk of electing to power a Party that will do "the dirty" on us. Just ask those who have had their disability allowances cut; ask those who suffered from the so-called bedroom tax; all of us who have suffered from the Tory austerity cuts. So because we didn't expect all this, does that mean we should have an immediate election to gauge opinion? That's not how democracy works, and you don't seem to appreciate that at all.
Again: Brexit means leaving the EU, and working out our own destiny: why can't you people understand that simple fact? I'll tell you : because you lost, and you are looking for any lame excuse to try and bring about the reversal of a democratic vote. Sounds to me as though your thinking belongs in some third world joke State.
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Evert time we have a General Election we take the risk of electing to power a Party that will do "the dirty" on us. Just ask those who have had their disability allowances cut; ask those who suffered from the so-called bedroom tax; all of us who have suffered from the Tory austerity cuts. So because we didn't expect all this, does that mean we should have an immediate election to gauge opinion? That's not how democracy works, and you don't seem to appreciate that at all.
Again: Brexit means leaving the EU, and working out our own destiny: why can't you people understand that simple fact? I'll tell you : because you lost, and you are looking for any lame excuse to try and bring about the reversal of a democratic vote. Sounds to me as though your thinking belongs in some third world joke State.
Anthony I am trying to remain civil I would appreciate it if you remained civil also.
The issue is that you do not seem to realize that the short term bounce in our economy is because the £ has devalued making it cheaper to sell our goods abroad. In a year or less that will look very different when the higher prices we have to pay for imported goods feed through into the economy. And as to everything not being as bad as predicted that is because we are still in the phase of the Phoney war - remember we haven't left the EU yet. Tarrifs have not changed, trading remains the same.
What happens when we do exit in 2 years time and we have no trade agreements in place? You might not like the truth but the vote has put us in a very precarious position economically. Now if you think it is a price worth paying for getting back our 'sovereignty' (although as far as I can see we gave that up to the multinational years ago') or for restricting free movement then have the guts to say I want people to be poorer to achieve these aims.
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Anthony I am trying to remain civil I would appreciate it if you remained civil also.
The issue is that you do not seem to realize that the short term bounce in our economy is because the £ has devalued making it cheaper to sell our goods abroad. In a year or less that will look very different when the higher prices we have to pay for imported goods feed through into the economy. And as to everything not being as bad as predicted that is because we are still in the phase of the Phoney war - remember we haven't left the EU yet. Tarrifs have not changed, trading remains the same.
What happens when we do exit in 2 years time and we have no trade agreements in place? You might not like the truth but the vote has put us in a very precarious position economically. Now if you think it is a price worth paying for getting back our 'sovereignty' (although as far as I can see we gave that up to the multinational years ago') or for restricting free movement then have the guts to say I want people to be poorer to achieve these aims.
Unemployment is down; consumer spending is up, the £ is stable, no investors or big organisations have left the UK, construction is on the up, inflation is stable. So where do you get the precarious scenario from? Talking about what might happen in two years is pointless. It is entirely possible that in two years we will be as well, or better, placed than now. Talk your country down as much as you will, but I am not in that camp. It's about time you, and those like you, turned their attention to positives, and looked to work the situation to our benefit, instead of this interminable whingeing of the loser.
I am not intending to be uncivil, but merely expressing my exasperation at your apparent failure to recognise reality and understand how our democracy works.
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Talking about what might happen in two years is pointless. It is entirely possible that in two years we will be as well, or better, placed than now..
Oh so we don't go in for long term planning any more. A great strategy that has proved to be for the UK in the past. ::)
It is entirely possible that in the next 2 years Teresa May will redistribute the wealth of the country more equally. Entirely possible but wholly unlikely. Stop kidding yourself.
Well if you are feeling exasperation you know exactly how I feel. I do not see how if you look at the options you can think that we are in any way (except for keeping Johnny Foreigner out) going to be better off. trade deals take a notoriously long time to complete and World trade tariffs are going to knacker us. This is not scare mongering it is simple maths.
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Oh so we don't go in for long term planning any more. A great strategy that has proved to be for the UK in the past. ::)
It is entirely possible that in the next 2 years Teresa May will redistribute the wealth of the country more equally. Entirely possible but wholly unlikely. Stop kidding yourself.
I understand that the Brexit plan being worked on now will incorporate plans for our future. Do give the Government some credit for foresight.
As to Theresa May: it's once again pointless to make judgements after two months or so; and equally pointless to try and predict what may (no pun intended!) be achieved in the future. I certainly am not kidding myself, nor am I living in the "what if" world you inhabit.
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I understand that the Brexit plan being worked on now will incorporate plans for our future. Do give the Government some credit for foresight.
As to Theresa May: it's once again pointless to make judgements after two months or so; and equally pointless to try and predict what may (no pun intended!) be achieved in the future. I certainly am not kidding myself, nor am I living in the "what if" world you inhabit.
It is not a 'what if' world. We have very few trade negotiators, most of those we did have are working (irony of irony) for the EU and won't be coming back. Trade deals take what 5,6,7 years to conclude on an individual basis - how are we going ot do this with a very small team?
Even if it is less in years it still does not solve the central problem of our trade relationship with the EU. And contrary to what others like to think - this is trade we very much need and rely on. So agan Brexit means Brexit - but what does it mean?
According to you the government has foresight. HELLO - have you nor been paying attention. Clearly there is no foresight otherwise we would not be where we are now. And given a lot of the faces around the cabinet table were there before the referendum I can only conclude that you are very much whistling in the dark.
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Evert time we have a General Election we take the risk of electing to power a Party that will do "the dirty" on us. Just ask those who have had their disability allowances cut; ask those who suffered from the so-called bedroom tax; all of us who have suffered from the Tory austerity cuts. So because we didn't expect all this, does that mean we should have an immediate election to gauge opinion? That's not how democracy works, and you don't seem to appreciate that at all.
Morning B.A.
That's the reason that we need a strong competent opposition party and we have regular elections.
Again: Brexit means leaving the EU, and working out our own destiny: why can't you people understand that simple fact? I'll tell you : because you lost, and you are looking for any lame excuse to try and bring about the reversal of a democratic vote. Sounds to me as though your thinking belongs in some third world joke State.
There are many versions of Brexit.
For example, we heard a lot pre-referendum about how businessmen and entrepreneurs would use the new freedoms to generate wealth - but I have a feeling that what some of them have in mind is exporting British jobs to third-world countries. Certainly an effective way of generating wealth for themselves, but maybe not too good for the rest of us.
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It is not a 'what if' world. We have very few trade negotiators, most of those we did have are working (irony of irony) for the EU and won't be coming back. Trade deals take what 5,6,7 years to conclude on an individual basis - how are we going ot do this with a very small team?
Even if it is less in years it still does not solve the central problem of our trade relationship with the EU. And contrary to what others like to think - this is trade we very much need and rely on. So agan Brexit means Brexit - but what does it mean?
According to you the government has foresight. HELLO - have you nor been paying attention. Clearly there is no foresight otherwise we would not be where we are now. And given a lot of the faces around the cabinet table were there before the referendum I can only conclude that you are very much whistling in the dark.
I agree with your analysis.
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It is not a 'what if' world. We have very few trade negotiators, most of those we did have are working (irony of irony) for the EU and won't be coming back. Trade deals take what 5,6,7 years to conclude on an individual basis - how are we going ot do this with a very small team?
Even if it is less in years it still does not solve the central problem of our trade relationship with the EU. And contrary to what others like to think - this is trade we very much need and rely on. So agan Brexit means Brexit - but what does it mean?
According to you the government has foresight. HELLO - have you nor been paying attention. Clearly there is no foresight otherwise we would not be where we are now. And given a lot of the faces around the cabinet table were there before the referendum I can only conclude that you are very much whistling in the dark.
Your pessimistic and totally unfounded fears of some sort of melt-down to come, an apocalypse, are the sort of unverifiable scare-mongering tactics that cause lack of confidence in the markets and is nothing less than scurrilous. Do you actually want this country to suffer some sort of economic set-back? Why not try very hard to back your country and be positive for once? The scare-mongering you deal in was exposed after both the Scottish Referendum, and then the EU Referendum. Learn your lesson: it doesn't work: it is counter -productive.
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I think it would be a good idea if some of the contributors to this discussion should be either (or both), advisors to the government or be part of the Brexit negotiating team as they seem to know exactly how this is going to go.
The government would do well to make use of the superb expert skills and remarkable foresight that are on offer.
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I agree with your analysis.
Have you got an analysis, Floo? Or are you just agreeing with anybody who disagrees with me? You are very mature!
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I think it would be a good idea if some of the contributors to this discussion should be either (or both), advisors to the government or be part of the Brexit negotiating team as they seem to know exactly how this is going to go.
The government would do well to make use of the superb expert skills and remarkable foresight that are on offer.
Well, that's very nice. Thank you (if it includes me, that is.) After all compliments are always welcome, whatever the source!
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Morning B.A.
That's the reason that we need a strong competent opposition party and we have regular elections.
There are many versions of Brexit.
For example, we heard a lot pre-referendum about how businessmen and entrepreneurs would use the new freedoms to generate wealth - but I have a feeling that what some of them have in mind is exporting British jobs to third-world countries. Certainly an effective way of generating wealth for themselves, but maybe not too good for the rest of us.
Good morning to you L.A.
Small businesses are the back-bone of our economy. At present they are being stifled by EU red tape, being subject to the same restrictions as big business, which is so much better placed to cope. Once free of the EU these small businesses will be free to expand, to all the world; and yes it will benefit them, of course, but more to the point, it will benefit us all by strengthening the economy. It is very simple economics.
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We are all citizens of the this world, which is ever decreasing in size due to modern technology. We need less of the 'my country right or wrong' view, but a global strategy which encompasses every nation to make things better for all. OK I know that is going to be extremely hard to achieve, but the 'little englander', pull up the drawbridge approach in the UK, doesn't help matters, imo.
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We are all citizens of the this world, which is ever decreasing in size due to modern technology. We need less of the 'my country right or wrong' view, but a global strategy which encompasses every nation to make things better for all. OK I know that is going to be extremely hard to achieve, but the 'little englander', pull up the drawbridge approach in the UK, doesn't help matters, imo.
Good grief!! Leaving the EU does not make us "little Englanders." It does precisely the opposite: it enables us to become a global contributor, not bound by EU restrictions.
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Good morning to you L.A.
Small businesses are the back-bone of our economy. At present they are being stifled by EU red tape, being subject to the same restrictions as big business, which is so much better placed to cope. Once free of the EU these small businesses will be free to expand, to all the world; and yes it will benefit them, of course, but more to the point, it will benefit us all by strengthening the economy. It is very simple economics.
I'm certainly not anti-business, quite the reverse, but a 'hard' Brexit would be catastrophic for all those small businesses who are sub-contractors for the likes of Nissan. Also unrestrained freedom to trade with countries such as India would produce a flood of cheap imports that would finish many businesses and the jobs that go with them.
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I'm certainly not anti-business, quite the reverse, but a 'hard' Brexit would be catastrophic for all those small businesses who are sub-contractors for the likes of Nissan. Also unrestrained freedom to trade with countries such as India would produce a flood of cheap imports that would finish many businesses and the jobs that go with them.
I'm sure that those in charge will be well aware of your points, and will act accordingly. I don't think we are about to do ourselves down!
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I'm sure that those in charge will be well aware of your points, and will act accordingly. I don't think we are about to do ourselves down!
That assumes that everyone 'in charge' has our best interests at heart.
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That assumes that everyone 'in charge' has our best interests at heart.
I am pretty sure they will be; why not?
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I am pretty sure they will be; why not?
Because MPs have other interests and I'm sure that there would be a lot of money to be made from certain deals that would be detrimental to the majority of us.
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Because MPs have other interests and I'm sure that there would be a lot of money to be made from certain deals that would be detrimental to the majority of us.
But they won't be making our plans. I have a regard for Liam Fox, and David Davies, in particular, and I trust them.
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But they won't be making our plans. I have a regard for Liam Fox, and David Davies, in particular, and I trust them.
Those are two of the names that I have less than 100% confidence in.
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But they won't be making our plans. I have a regard for Liam Fox, and David Davies, in particular, and I trust them.
That's the Liam Fox that resigned in disgrace?
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That's the Liam Fox that resigned in disgrace?
What's that got to do with his role in the Brexit plans?
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What's that got to do with his role in the Brexit plans?
it's a question of trust, given that the whole issue was about access and donations
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What's that got to do with his role in the Brexit plans?
Well he doesn't seem overly trustworthy does he. Largest expense claimant and the hoo-ha at the MOD. Shouldn't really be let anywhere near a cabinet post.
David Davis (even tho I don't agree with him) is imo more trustworthy.
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Well he doesn't seem overly trustworthy does he. Largest expense claimant and the hoo-ha at the MOD. Shouldn't really be let anywhere near a cabinet post.
David Davis (even tho I don't agree with him) is imo more trustworthy.
That would be the David Davis who appeared to forget his speech in a leadership election then later went through the rather pointless exercise of forcing a bi election in his own seat as a civil liberties protest . (possibly well motivated but an utter waste of everyone's time and money)
He might be trustworthy, but what a Wally!
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That would be the David Davis who appeared to forget his speech in a leadership election then later went through the rather pointless exercise of forcing a bi election in his own seat as a civil liberties protest . (possibly well motivated but an utter waste of everyone's time and money)
He might be trustworthy, but what a Wally!
Yes - I was only comparing trustworthiness. In any case they are Tories....... ;)
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That would be the David Davis who appeared to forget his speech in a leadership election then later went through the rather pointless exercise of forcing a bi election in his own seat as a civil liberties protest . (possibly well motivated but an utter waste of everyone's time and money)
He might be trustworthy, but what a Wally!
He may be a wally in some matters, L.A., NS, but if Theresa May and her advisors think he is the right man for the job, I'll go along with their judgement.
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Well he doesn't seem overly trustworthy does he. Largest expense claimant and the hoo-ha at the MOD. Shouldn't really be let anywhere near a cabinet post.
David Davis (even tho I don't agree with him) is imo more trustworthy.
Though I am well aware of your expertise in political judgement, I think I prefer Theresa May's. No offence.
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Though I am well aware of your expertise in political judgement, I think I prefer Theresa May's. No offence.
None taken. Your putting your trust in Teresa May's judgement shows you for the politically naïve waif you are. No offence.
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None taken. Your putting your trust in Teresa May's judgement shows you for the politically naïve waif you are. No offence.
A rather cheap attempt at scoring a point at my expense; but I have to say, comparing your judgement of me with Theresa May's judgment of anything is akin to comparing Ann Widdicombe's dancing with Darcy Bussells! No offence!
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A rather cheap attempt at scoring a point at my expense; but I have to say, comparing your judgement of me with Theresa May's judgment of anything is akin to comparing Ann Widdicombe's dancing with Darcy Bussells! No offence!
Well I love a little bit of condescension in the afternoon.
If you think May is going to get us out of this in any decent shape you are even more deluded than your posts suggest.
May is to politics what you are to respect. Very distant cousins. No offence.
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Though I am well aware of your expertise in political judgement, I think I prefer Theresa May's. No offence.
Political Judgement?
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary!
No offence.
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Political Judgement?
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary!
No offence.
You know better, of course. Shouldn't you be offering the Government the benefit of your higher judgement?
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He may be a wally in some matters, L.A., NS, but if Theresa May and her advisors think he is the right man for the job, I'll go along with their judgement.
Maybe, I suppose the Pope did make her a saint didn't he . . . . (or was that a dream)
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Maybe, I suppose the Pope did make her a saint didn't he . . . . (or was that a dream)
Who knows, in the fullness of time?
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Well I love a little bit of condescension in the afternoon.
If you think May is going to get us out of this in any decent shape you are even more deluded than your posts suggest.
May is to politics what you are to respect. Very distant cousins. No offence.
I have to say that judging by your posts, you are to politics what John Prescott is to ice-dancing. Hope that's not too harsh!!!
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Those are two of the names that I have less than 100% confidence in.
What do you know of their political and negotiating skills, L.A.,
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What do you know of their political and negotiating skills, L.A.,
I gather Fox has been quite adept at negotiation deals in the defence industry:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049356/Liam-Fox-resignation-The-experts-doubled-profits-Defence-Minister.html
. . . though I'm not sure the taxpayers were the beneficiaries.
As for Davis, I wouldn't consider him capable of negotiating a McDonald's Meal Deal!
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Unrealistic nonsense. Why should she call an election?
She has to implement a policy with which she does not agree.
The Referendum is over: Brexit is fact, an incontrovertible fact.
It hasn't happened yet.
And why, on this planet, should she go for the Norway option?
Because then we don't destroy our banking and manufacturing sectors.
Yes, she was a Remainer, but as anyone who knows anything about politics (again, not you, then!), a very reluctant one.
What does that even mean? Does it mean she has no integrity?
Had she decided to call an election she would have swept the floor with the divided and inept Labour Part, thus strengtheing her position hugely. Good job she didn't, for you, eh?
It's just occurred to me that she can't call a general election. The last government introduced fixed length terms. So I'll change my mind: if I were in her position, I would negotiate a deal as close to the Norway model as possible and then put it to the country in another referendum: Norway model or stay in the EU. Then I would pass primary legislation that would either ban future referendums or at least require a 50% majority of the entire electorate.
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the EU, with its constrictions on our sovereignty and control of so much of our lives.
Can you name one aspect of your life that is controlled by the EU?
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Are you people going to ask for a re-run of a General Election if the result doesn't suit you?
We already do rerun the General Election every five years.
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I understand that the Brexit plan being worked on now will incorporate plans for our future. Do give the Government some credit for foresight.
Foresight means you do the planning in advance. If the government had used any foresight, they would already have had a plan on day one.
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She has to implement a policy with which she does not agree.
It hasn't happened yet.
Because then we don't destroy our banking and manufacturing sectors.
What does that even mean? Does it mean she has no integrity?
It's just occurred to me that she can't call a general election. The last government introduced fixed length terms. So I'll change my mind: if I were in her position, I would negotiate a deal as close to the Norway model as possible and then put it to the country in another referendum: Norway model or stay in the EU. Then I would pass primary legislation that would either ban future referendums or at least require a 50% majority of the entire electorate.
Fixed majorities of the entire electorate gives votes to dead people. The fixed term parliament can be changed if they could get two thirds of the votes, or a simple no confidence vote. While I think it might look odd for a govt to vote NC in itself, I think in certain circumstances it could be done. There was a time when I thought the Tories should wait till the new boundaries are in place which should give them a massive majority but the current news on the Rialto is that Brexiteer Tories are possibly going to vote down the boundary changes to save their own seats
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Foresight means you do the planning in advance. If the government had used any foresight, they would already have had a plan on day one.
As I said: Cameron was in charge; it was he who should have had a plan in place. And I remind you, he said he would see the matter through, whatever the Referendum result. That was a blatant lie. He simply packed up and ran, and left others to carry the can As the leader of the Remain campaign it was entirely his responsibility, and was, and is, his fault that there was no plan.
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We already do rerun the General Election every five years.
Right. But we have to wait five years, however unpopular or unsuccessful a government is. Silly Remainers are clambering for a second Referendum, weeks after the first, when we don't even know how it is going to impact. At present the economy is fine. So, on what grounds are you people asking for a re-run? I'll answer that for you: because you are bad losers, no more than that.
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As I said: Cameron was in charge; it was he who should have had a plan in place. And I remind you, he said he would see the matter through, whatever the Referendum result. That was a blatant lie. He simply packed up and ran, and left others to carry the can As the leader of the Remain campaign it was entirely his responsibility, and was, and is, his fault that there was no plan.
Why should he plan for what he was opposed to? Was it the Iraqis reinsibility to have a plan for losing the war?
And just to note the PM is only a primus inter pares, the people in charge are the govt.
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Right. But we have to wait five years, however unpopular or unsuccessful a government is. Silly Remainers are clambering for a second Referendum, weeks after the first, when we don't even know how it is going to impact. At present the economy is fine. So, on what grounds are you people asking for a re-run? I'll answer that for you: because you are bad losers, no more than that.
This seems a misrepresentations of those who want a second referendum and arguing for it on the basis of whatever deal is actually negotiated. Now I think their position is nonsense but you shouldn't misrepresent it.
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Can you name one aspect of your life that is controlled by the EU?
Of all laws proposed by the EU that UK objected to, 84% of our objections were over-ruled. We have no control over the movement of people, all of which impact on our lives mightily. Our trade relations with the rest of the world are constricted by EU regulations; small businesses in particular suffering considerably from this EU red tape. So, we have lost the ability to control laws, our borders, and trade relations outside the EU. Haven't you noticed those things? Thank goodness we are throwing off the yoke!
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Why should he plan for what he was opposed to? Was it the Iraqis reinsibility to have a plan for losing the war?
And just to note the PM is only a primus inter pares, the people in charge are the govt.
For goodness' sake: he said he would do it, and lied, and then did a bunk. Cameron was the Government, they did as he said. What were Brexiters supposed to do, take over the Government and plan for Brexit? That would almost have amounted to a coup! You Remainers are saying the most absurd things, and it all shows just what massively bad losers you are.
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This seems a misrepresentations of those who want a second referendum and arguing for it on the basis of whatever deal is actually negotiated. Now I think their position is nonsense but you shouldn't misrepresent it.
I'm not misrepresenting anyone. Both the silly, opportunist Farron, and Smith and the Remainers all, have said we should have a second Referendum when the Government announces its plans; they say we should have a vote on whether we agree with the Government stance, and that's before any effects may be felt. That is their position, whatever odd idea you have of it. The fact remains: we have voted out, and that is it, except in the minds of you losers.
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She has to implement a policy with which she does not agree.
It hasn't happened yet.
Because then we don't destroy our banking and manufacturing sectors.
What does that even mean? Does it mean she has no integrity?
It's just occurred to me that she can't call a general election. The last government introduced fixed length terms. So I'll change my mind: if I were in her position, I would negotiate a deal as close to the Norway model as possible and then put it to the country in another referendum: Norway model or stay in the EU. Then I would pass primary legislation that would either ban future referendums or at least require a 50% majority of the entire electorate.
Once again you show your lack of political acumen: you are totally wrong. Theresa May could call a General Election if two-thirds of MP's called for it, which would be unlikely; or she could declare no confidence in her own Government and call for an election on those grounds. Luckily for you losers she has decided not to. If she did she would be returned with a large majority and be in the strongest possible position from her point of view.
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I'm not misrepresenting anyone. Both the silly, opportunist Farron, and Smith and the Remainers all, have said we should have a second Referendum when the Government announces its plans; they say we should have a vote on whether we agree with the Government stance, and that's before any effects may be felt. That is their position, whatever odd idea you have of it. The fact remains: we have voted out, and that is it, except in the minds of you losers.
that is when the negotiations have taken place. So your idea of another vote in a few weeks is a misrepresentation.
Nice of you to ignore the bit in my post where I said their position is a nonsense.
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For goodness' sake: he said he would do it, and lied, and then did a bunk. Cameron was the Government, they did as he said. What were Brexiters supposed to do, take over the Government and plan for Brexit? That would almost have amounted to a coup! You Remainers are saying the most absurd things, and it all shows just what massively bad losers you are.
many of them were in the govt. You seem to be somewhat baffled by this basic point. BTW what does 'he said he would do it' mean here? Is it invoke article 50, then that isn't and was never a plan.
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many of them were in the govt. You seem to be somewhat baffled by this basic point. BTW what does 'he said he would do it' mean here? Is it invoke article 50, then that isn't and was never a plan.
How could members of the Government defy Cameron and, as members of his Cabinet, start preparing for Brexit? He would simply sack them. Remember, he only condescendingly allowed them to campaign for Brexit, if they wished, and only then some time after the Remain campaign had been launched.
Cameron said he would prepare us for exit from the EU if he lost the vote. That is a fact; and he welched on it. He was the only one, repeat, the only one, who could have initiated a plan for Brexit whilst his Government was in power. Got it?
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How could members of the Government defy Cameron and, as members of his Cabinet, start preparing for Brexit? He would simply sack them. Remember, he only condescendingly allowed them to campaign for Brexit, if they wished, and only then some time after the Remain campaign had been launched.
Cameron said he would prepare us for exit from the EU if he lost the vote. That is a fact; and he welched on it. He was the only one, repeat, the only one, who could have initiated a plan for Brexit whilst his Government was in power. Got it?
so those in the Cabinet voting to leave knew there were no plans, and whatever was being voted for wasn't understood? By the way can you point me in the direction of Cameron's promise to prepare us for exit, and explain why something that couldn't be negotiated before a vote was going to be prepared for by someone that didn't want the vote to say leave? And in addition, lay out your understanding that a PM in the UK seemingly has unlimited powers and doesn't serve at the willingness of their party? Because given what you say the downfall of Thatcher (and indeed Dave) was impossible.
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so those in the Cabinet voting to leave knew there were no plans, and whatever was being voted for wasn't understood? By the way can you point me in the direction of Cameron's promise to prepare us for exit, and explain why something that couldn't be negotiated before a vote was going to be prepared for by someone that didn't want the vote to say leave? And in addition, lay out your understanding that a PM in the UK seemingly has unlimited powers and doesn't serve at the willingness of their party? Because given what you say the downfall of Thatcher (and indeed Dave) was impossible.
I'm in a bit of a hurry, tea-time! Just to say: Cameron said on the Marr Show on 12th June that he would stay on as PM whatever the result of the Referendum, and carry out the wishes of the British people. Asked by Marr to repeat that, he did so. Do you not follow politics at all? You hold a lot of views in ignorance of the facts. You seem not to have appreciated the power Cameron had in the running of the Government, as Duncan Smith said when he finally had the courage to resign rather than carry out the continuing order to initiate cut-backs which he didn't agree with . The only alternative to defying Cameron was to resign.
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I'm in a bit of a hurry, tea-time! Just to say: Cameron said on the Marr Show on 12th June that he would stay on as PM whatever the result of the Referendum, and carry out the wishes of the British people. Asked by Marr to repeat that, he did so. Do you not follow politics at all? You hold a lot of views in ignorance of the facts. You seem not to have appreciated the power Cameron had in the running of the Government, as Duncan Smith said when he finally had the courage to resign rather than carry out the continuing order to initiate cut-backs which he didn't agree with . The only alternative to defying Cameron was to resign.
That"s not a promise of a plan. As to IDS, again this is a policy he spoke for continually, like the bedroom tax you excoriated earlier. iDS was the minister for it, spoke for it, implemented it but you think he is trustworthy if he says nothing to do with me, guv
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That"s not a promise of a plan. As to IDS, again this is a policy he spoke for continually, like the bedroom tax you excoriated earlier. iDS was the minister for it, spoke for it, implemented it but you think he is trustworthy if he says nothing to do with me, guv
When Prime Miister says he will do something, on national tv, he should be as good as his word in my book, not, apparently in yours. Instead, two weeks later he resigned: what a dishonest, lying goon!
Your point about Duncan Smith, what ever it is, is not worth pursuing
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When Prime Miister says he will do something, on national tv, he should be as good as his word in my book, not, apparently in yours. Instead, two weeks later he resigned: what a dishonest, lying goon!
Your point about Duncan Smith, what ever it is,is not worth pursuing
That still doesn't make it a plan. It was at most a promise.
As to IDS, it seems once again that you don't really understand anything about govt.
ETA. and can stop with the idea that I am defending Cameron. Thinking that you show an inept piece if judgement as regards IDS or the disgraced Kiam Fox, does not mean that I think highly of Cameron.
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When Prime Miister says he will do something, on national tv, he should be as good as his word in my book, not, apparently in yours. Instead, two weeks later he resigned: what a dishonest, lying goon!
Your point about Duncan Smith, what ever it is,is not worth pursuing
Cameron's position always was going to be untenable in the event of a Leave vote, Ken Clarke said as much at the time - and to be honest, we are better off without him. What would he be able to contribute at this stage?
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That still doesn't make it a plan. It was at most a promise.
As to IDS, it seems once again that you don't really understand anything about govt.
ETA. and can stop with the idea that I am defending Cameron. Thinking that you show an inept piece if judgement as regards IDS or the disgraced Kiam Fox, does not mean that I think highly of Cameron.
I know it doesn't make it a plan! The whole point is that he said he would stay and see us through it. If that doesn't mean he was going to implement some sort of plan, I don't know what is!!
Why am I displaying inept judgement over Fox and and Duncan Smith? I mentioned Duncan Smith only to make a point. Fox is in the Government on merit; and far be it from someone as politically clueless as you to pronounce on that.
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I know it doesn't make it a plan! The whole point is that he said he would stay and see us through it. If that doesn't mean he was going to implement some sort of plan, I don't know what is!!
Why am I displaying inept judgement over Fox and and Duncan Smith? I mentioned Duncan Smith only to make a point. Fox is in the Government on merit; and far be it from someone as politically clueless as you to pronounce on that.
Because you think in trade negotiatiinsyou can trust someone who had to resign over donations and access.
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Cameron's position always was going to be untenable in the event of a Leave vote, Ken Clarke said as much at the time - and to be honest, we are better off without him. What would he be able to contribute at this stage?
I agree. And after the shambles of his "negotiations" for a better EU deal (it was a sham, anyway!) I wouldn't trust him negotiating for a new bicycle!
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Because you think in trade negotiatiinsyou can trust someone who had to resign over donations and access.
I don't see, for all the world, what any past demeanours have to do with his ability to negotiate!
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I don't see, for all the world, what any past demeanours have to do with his ability to negotiate!
they should affect your ability to trust them.
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they should affect your ability to trust them.
What do you think? Fox might be planning a secret deal, unbeknown to the rest of his Department? Look, he is just one of a team, and he is working to complete a deal over the campaign he believed in. What is there not to trust?
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What do you think? Fox might be planning a secret deal, unbeknown to the rest of his Department? Look, he is just one of a team, and he is working to complete a deal over the campaign he believed in. What is there not to trust?
his ethics and his judgement
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You know better, of course. Shouldn't you be offering the Government the benefit of your higher judgement?
Sure, here it is
Move Boris to the role for foreign correspondent for the Dandy.
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Sure, here it is
Move Boris to the role for foreign correspondent for the Dandy.
Or the Beano! :D
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Sure, here it is
Move Boris to the role for foreign correspondent for the Dandy.
Better still. Join the Labour Party as political adviser, and that should ensure their complete collapse.
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Better still. Join the Labour Party as political adviser, and that should ensure their complete collapse.
Who? Boris or me?
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Who? Boris or me?
Both. Though that might bring the whole country down!
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Sure, here it is
Move Boris to the role for foreign correspondent for the Dandy.
Brilliant! Far better than I thought you were capable of!
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Better still. Join the Labour Party as political adviser, and that should ensure their complete collapse.
No need to bother there, Labour couldn't win a raffle even if they had the only ticket!
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http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-brexit-article-50-european-union-theresa-may-2016-9
Yet more proof that the Brexiters didn't understand what was proposed.
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http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-brexit-article-50-european-union-theresa-may-2016-9
Yet more proof that the Brexiters didn't understand what was proposed.
Pretty condescending, that, and palpably ridiculous. Today the independent ONS issued a report saying that as yet the economy has shown no signs of a downturn, as I have already posted before. Yet the appalling Osborne said, in one of his scare-monger speeches, that we would need an emergency budget to cope with an out result. So far construction is up, manufacturing is strong, unemployment down, inflation under control, consumer activity buoyant, markets and sterling stable. So, just like all his second-rate economic "forecasts, he was WRONG! So, how do you talk round the ONS review?
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BA I dont know how to break this to you but we havent lect the eu yet. Thats why there is no manor change. Yet. Wait till we start to try trading without deals in place. It will be chaos.
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BA I dont know how to break this to you but we havent lect the eu yet. Thats why there is no manor change. Yet. Wait till we start to try trading without deals in place. It will be chaos.
You people still on with the scare-mongering, and unsubstantiated "predictions"? It seems to me that you are just hoping things go wrong, so that you can say, "told you so." Not very patriotic. So, let's hear you applaud the most encouraging present economic situation: construction up, manufacturing up, unemployment down, buoyant consumer activity, stable markets and stable sterling, inflation under control, as outlined by the independent Office of National Statistics in a report just today. Good, isn't it? And it will get better.
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http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-brexit-article-50-european-union-theresa-may-2016-9
Yet more proof that the Brexiters didn't understand what was proposed.
To be fair, no journalists really pressed them too hard on those kinds of trivial details.
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To be fair, no journalists really pressed them too hard on those kinds of trivial details.
Aye. Ain't that the truth.
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Pretty condescending, that, and palpably ridiculous. Today the independent ONS issued a report saying that as yet the economy has shown no signs of a downturn, as I have already posted before. Yet the appalling Osborne said, in one of his scare-monger speeches, that we would need an emergency budget to cope with an out result. So far construction is up, manufacturing is strong, unemployment down, inflation under control, consumer activity buoyant, markets and sterling stable. So, just like all his second-rate economic "forecasts, he was WRONG! So, how do you talk round the ONS review?
And yet pretty much all forecasts for growth have been revised downwards by 1% for 2017 - which will prove pretty bad for our economy and companies. Hardly condescending to face up to the very real possibility of long and sustained damage to our economy.
Anyways my last post on this thread whilst you are posting on the subject, as here you seem to be in full on patronise and WUM mode. I'll come back in a year and just quietly whisper 'I told you so'.
Sweet dreams (while you can).
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The Economy is in for a rough ride because if people have no money they cannot buy.
A piece of bread could buy a bag of Gold. The poor in our Country have had their benefits cut and the Government lie in their false claims of what people actually receive.
If God suddenly decided to remove the food chain where would they be?
We are being undermined by the Government. As a believer God owns everything.
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The Economy is in for a rough ride because if people have no money they cannot buy.
A piece of bread could buy a bag of God. The poor in our Country have had their benefits cut and the Government lie in their false claims of what people actually receive.
If God suddenly decided to remove the food chain where would they be?
We are being undermined by the Government. As a believer God owns everything.
YE GODS what is silly post!
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And yet pretty much all forecasts for growth have been revised downwards by 1% for 2017 - which will prove pretty bad for our economy and companies. Hardly condescending to face up to the very real possibility of long and sustained damage to our economy.
Anyways my last post on this thread whilst you are posting on the subject, as here you seem to be in full on patronise and WUM mode. I'll come back in a year and just quietly whisper 'I told you so'.
Sweet dreams (while you can).
Pointless making unsubstantiated forecasts, like your disgraced guru, Osborne. Look at the picture as it is, not how you, apparently, wish it was. Why can't you stand up for your own country? It's a disgrace! I have to assume that at best you're just a very bad loser.
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YE GODS what is silly post!
I don't know, I think Sassy always brings an interesting perspective into these discussions. :)
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Pointless making unsubstantiated forecasts, like your disgraced guru, Osborne. Look at the picture as it is, not how you, apparently, wish it was. Why can't you stand up for your own country? It's a disgrace! I have to assume that at best you're just a very bad loser.
The whole point surely is that we are still in the 'phoney war'. After the initial shock things have 'kind of' settled down. The lower pound will be a 'mixed blessing' , at the moment we are only seeing the 'up' side, but price-rises are in the pipeline with the spectre of inflation always looming.
At the moment most businesses are desperately hoping that we will retain the single market - BUT NOBODY KNOWS - and if it looks as if we are heading for a Hard Brexit, the shit will really hit the fan making Osborne's most dire predictions look quite mild.
All we can do is keep our faith in Saint Theresa and pray :)
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The whole point surely is that we are still in the 'phoney war'. After the initial shock things have 'kind of' settled down. The lower pound will be a 'mixed blessing' , at the moment we are only seeing the 'up' side, but price-rises are in the pipeline with the spectre of inflation always looming.
At the moment most businesses are desperately hoping that we will retain the single market - BUT NOBODY KNOWS - and if it looks as if we are heading for a Hard Brexit, the shit will really hit the fan making Osborne's most dire predictions look quite mild.
All we can do is keep our faith in Saint Theresa and pray :)
Morning L.A./
Don't be so pessimistic! The situation now is bucking the predictions of hopeless Osborne. Why should we not continue to prosper? This time Cameron's joke, "we're all in this together," actually applies.
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Morning L.A./
Don't be so pessimistic! The situation now is bucking the predictions of hopeless Osborne. Why should we not continue to prosper? This time Cameron's joke, "we're all in this together," actually applies.
Hi B.A.
I think I'm being very realistic, the situation could go either way and at the moment there are not really any indicators give us a clue.
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Hi B.A.
I think I'm being very realistic, the situation could go either way and at the moment there are not really any indicators give us a clue.
There are indicators: first and foremost that the doom-mongers are already being proved wrong. I think we are well capable of sustaining a viable economy and negotiating deals that will be beneficial to the UK.
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The Economy is in for a rough ride because if people have no money they cannot buy.
A piece of bread could buy a bag of Gold. The poor in our Country have had their benefits cut and the Government lie in their false claims of what people actually receive.
If God suddenly decided to remove the food chain where would they be?
We are being undermined by the Government. As a believer God owns everything.
Typo and the fact my keyboard sticks sometimes so letters do not post though they have been hit on the keyboard.
I am sure those who know the Christian teaching " A piece of bread could buy a bag of Gold." It comes from a well known song... I wish we'd all been ready.
Such times as now is the time when these things can and will eventually become possible.
Our own Government leave God out of the picture and act without Gods truth or even the fact they become answerable. If our Country goes through disastrous times then they should of heeded the truth.
He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.
Too often, and for far too long, the Conservatives have sought to give to the rich by oppressing/taking from the poor. It leads to want by all. I do believe in the last days that as God provided for his people in the wilderness and barren place he will provide for those he loves. But what about those who ignore the truth.
Our Government cares very little for truth or the real people in poverty in our own Country.
They give to others outside our country in need, whilst denying aid to their own. Not the way of God. You want watch and look and know that if you support welfare cuts because of lies that you place yourself in with those who themselves will become financially hard up. Remove the support from the bottom of the pile and the rest of the pile falls even harder.
Sometimes all Christians have to do is to tell those in power. Write to their MP and the PM because once warned their not get out clause and it requires only one of us to make that happen. I wrote to the PM yesterday... to warn those who oppress the poor lose everything themselves.
Our Government has turned the rich and not so rich against our poorest with lies.
How can a country divided stand? They insult God in what they do.
Peace of mind makes the body healthy, but jealousy is like a cancer. If you oppress poor people, you insult the God who made them; but kindness shown to the poor is an act of worship. Wicked people bring about their own downfall by their evil deeds, but good people are protected by their integrity. Wisdom is in every thought of intelligent people; fools know nothing about wisdom. Righteousness makes a nation great; sin is a disgrace to any nation. Kings are pleased with competent officials, but they punish those who fail them.
Does anyone think of what would have become of our Queen and Country if we had entered the EU. No truer words than man may make all the plans he wants but God has the last word.
I have just been able to share freely what is probably the true cause of any problems with our economy. It is enough to ask you to ponder and think on how if you lose your jobs; the benefits you took away from those in a lesser position are the same as you will reap?
How man becomes caught in his own traps and his own treatment of others. But those who brought it about will feel it more keenly than the innocent victims who have suffered because of it.
Note to ponder very seriously about what we decided to impose on others .
How many people have committed suicide and have died whilst being left without benefits or financial help. You can have blood on your hands of innocent people simply by supporting the powers that caused their cruel treatment. The Government did not get it right to follow the cruelty of the USA against their own benefit people. Kids live on the streets in America and soon it will be happening here if the Government are not made to face the reality of their actions.
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There are indicators: first and foremost that the doom-mongers are already being proved wrong. I think we are well capable of sustaining a viable economy and negotiating deals that will be beneficial to the UK.
The 'doom-mongers' have most certainly not been proved wrong, the government have been extremely guarded in their announcements, but we can be pretty certain that some elements would be prepared to lose the single market, and that is very worrying.
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The 'doom-mongers' have most certainly not been proved wrong, the government have been extremely guarded in their announcements, but we can be pretty certain that some elements would be prepared to lose the single market, and that is very worrying.
In what ways are the doom-mongers correct? And what specific Government announcements are you referring to?
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In what ways are the doom-mongers correct? And what specific Government announcements are you referring to?
As I said earlier, we are still in the 'phoney war' - apart from the exchange rate, nothing has actually changed yet and this state could potentially go on for some time, but in the end we will have to face the consequences of Brexit - and that could still be very unpleasant.
It's the lack of government information that I was referring to.
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Or indeed information that it is then denied, but don't worry, they are all exceedingly worthy and trustworthy according to BA.
http://tinyurl.com/h87lfhm
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Or indeed information that it is then denied, but don't worry, they are all exceedingly worthy and trustworthy according to BA.
http://tinyurl.com/h87lfhm
You are in the minority yet again, NS. A survey by Radio5Live today shows that 62% are happy with the way things are going, and feel positive about it. So, it's just the minority who are doom merchants!
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You are in the minority yet again, NS. A survey by Radio5Live today shows that 62% are happy with the way things are going, and feel positive about it. So, it's just the minority who are doom merchants!
Ah argumentum ad populum. Try and deal with the fact that the foreign secretary doesn't know what's going on
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Ah argumentum ad populum. Try and deal with the fact that the foreign secretary doesn't know what's going on
Try looking at the news! This morning Boris was on, saying that he thought that Article 50 would be invoked early in 2017, and that he didn't think the exit would take as long as two years. At this, still early, stage nobody can expect a lot more.
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Try looking at the news! This morning Boris was on, saying that he thought that Article 50 would be invoked early in 2017, and that he didn't think the exit would take as long as two years. At this, still early, stage nobody can expect a lot more.
I did look at the news.
Apparently his boss wasn't too happy that he had spoken out of turn.
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I did look at the news.
Apparently his boss wasn't too happy that he had spoken out of turn.
Really? I missed that bit. Could you enlighten me as to what she said? Whatever, it doesn't alter the fact that when you said Boris didn't know what was going on, you were wrong.
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Try looking at the news! This morning Boris was on, saying that he thought that Article 50 would be invoked early in 2017, and that he didn't think the exit would take as long as two years. At this, still early, stage nobody can expect a lot more.
I take it you didn't read the articke then?
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I take it you didn't read the articke then?
No, I didn't. So tell me what she said.
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No, I didn't. So tell me what she said.
Ah so you commented on something and now admit you hadn't any sense of what you were commenting on. Do you intentionally try to make yourself look ridiculous?
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Ah so you commented on something and now admit you hadn't any sense of what you were commenting on. Do you intentionally try to make yourself look ridiculous?
What the heck are you talking about? I said that Boris had spoken on the news: I never said anything about reading any article.. I mentioned Article 50, if that's what your muddled mind is mixing up! I think it's someone else who is looking rather ridiculous this morning!
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What the heck are you talking about? I said that Boris had spoken on the news: I never said anything about reading any article.. I mentioned Article 50, if that's what your muddled mind is mixing up! I think it's someone else who is looking rather ridiculous this morning!
I posted a link to an article in #380, you commented on it. Your reply in #383 indicated that you had not read the article. I asked about whether you had read it in #386, and you replied that you had not in #387.
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I posted a link to an article in #380, you commented on it. Your reply in #383 indicated that you had not read the article. I asked about whether you had read it in #386, and you replied that you had not in #387.
What on earth are you on about? I didn't read any article, nor did I say I had. I asked that I might be enlightened as to what it said. All I have done is say that I had heard Boris on the news. You seem totally muddled and completely off the ball.
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What on earth are you on about? I didn't read any article, nor did I say I had. I asked that I might be enlightened as to what it said. All I have done is say that I had heard Boris on the news. You seem totally muddled and completely off the ball.
I have given you the list of posts, not really sure how to get any further. Read the numbered posts and get back to me
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I have given you the list of posts, not really sure how to get any further. Read the numbered posts and get back to me
I have read the posts, and I never said I had read any article. I asked to be enlightened as to what it said, ie what was in it. That's all. So what are you on about? There really is no more to say about this, and it's getting bizarre, going round in circles.
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The pound buys less than a Euro (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37609114)
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The pound buys less than a Euro (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37609114)
That is frightening! :o
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That is frightening! :o
And also today a leaked cabinet document has revealed that hard Breixt would result in a loss of revenue to the treasury of up to £66billion a year - to put that in context that is 65% of the total budget of the NHS.
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And also today a leaked cabinet document has revealed that hard Breixt would result in a loss of revenue to the treasury of up to £66billion a year - to put that in context that is 65% of the total budget of the NHS.
I reckon if Brexit starts hitting people where it hurts most, in the pocket, there will be a public outcry against it!
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And also today a leaked cabinet document has revealed that hard Breixt would result in a loss of revenue to the treasury of up to £66billion a year - to put that in context that is 65% of the total budget of the NHS.
Don't worry, it'll come out of the fictional £350 million per week we are paying to the EU.
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I reckon if Brexit starts hitting people where it hurts most, in the pocket, there will be a public outcry against it!
With the pound down by a fifth from it's value on the 23rd of June - it is already hitting us in the pocket - try buying your holiday currency!
But that is almost trivial compared to what is in the pipeline - . We don't necessarily get the full effect at once because many companies use currency hedging, but there will be no escaping the effects - all our imports are going to cost us that much more and with a resurgent OPEC fuel prices are also starting to rise.
All this translates into a rise in the cost of living and inflation.
When the Philip Hammond warned of "a post-Brexit 'rollercoaster' ride" he was guilty of a massive understatement.
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And also today a leaked cabinet document has revealed that hard Breixt would result in a loss of revenue to the treasury of up to £66billion a year - to put that in context that is 65% of the total budget of the NHS.
It's not a leaked document it is something done during the referendum by the Remain lot and a load of bogus nonsense.
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It's not a leaked document it is something done during the referendum by the Remain lot and a load of bogus nonsense.
It's been widely reported across the political spectrum:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/11/hard-brexit-treasury-66bn-eu-single-market
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1951391/treasury-will-lose-up-to-66bn-a-year-in-tax-revenues-if-it-pursues-a-hard-brexit-warn-leaked-documents/
(the latter makes me wonder whether Arch-Duke Murdoch is getting cold feet)
A tax revenue short-fall of £66 billion seems pretty bad, but what it would actually mean would be an economy in very deep recession.
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It's been widely reported across the political spectrum:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/11/hard-brexit-treasury-66bn-eu-single-market
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1951391/treasury-will-lose-up-to-66bn-a-year-in-tax-revenues-if-it-pursues-a-hard-brexit-warn-leaked-documents/
(the latter makes me wonder whether Arch-Duke Murdoch is getting cold feet)
A tax revenue short-fall of £66 billion seems pretty bad, but what it would actually mean would be an economy in very deep recession.
I told you it's made up shit.
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I told you it's made up shit.
I wish I had the ability to 'make up' such accurate stuff. Sadly it's all happening - OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES.
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It's not a leaked document it is something done during the referendum by the Remain lot and a load of bogus nonsense.
Nope - this is a document presented at a recent cabinet meeting outlining the likely economic hit from a hard Brexit. Nothing to do with the remain campaign.
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I told you it's made up shit.
Oh look a Brexiteer complaining because what he was told would happen if we chose to exit - is in fact happening.
BTW still waiting for that £350 million that is going to increase funds for the NHS, pay the farmers their subsidies, finance scientific research etc, etc.
You were sold a pup. A dud. A con trick.
Haven't you realized that yet.
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Fascinating Aida's take
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=mVy7faNKEtM
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Express wants to imprison people for expressing their views
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/720169/Parliament-vote-act-EU-Brexit-British-Westminster-MPs
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Of course it's all about the bananas
http://tinyurl.com/hy8j9ar
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Brexit stops Pot Noodle
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37637954?SThisFB
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Brexit stops Pot Noodle
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37637954?SThisFB
Not to mention Marmite, Surf washing powder, Comfort fabric conditioner, Ben and Jerry's ice-cream and PG Tips.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37639518
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Tesco is my supermarket of choice, HELP! :o
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Tesco is my supermarket of choice, HELP! :o
Well other options are available. And if you do change Tesco will eventually notice and entice you back with offers of so much off an £80 shop or some such.
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But surely the British people voted for higher prices. Who would be so unpatriotic as to go against this? I say, down with the Bremoaners, and their complaints.
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Well other options are available. And if you do change Tesco will eventually notice and entice you back with offers of so much off an £80 shop or some such.
The trouble is I dislike the other options. Now offers on a shop of £80 or over would be good, my weekly shop is usually more than £80.
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I bet the country's Brexiteers will be making sure that they wear large, metaphorical blinkers so that they will never see that the price rises etc are their fault. It is so grossly unfair on the three-quarters of yung people who were remainers.
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I have just seen the Tesco/Brexit debacle referred to as Marmitegate. ;D
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You can't have a free-falling pound without price rises and this is obviously only the beginning. Having said that I think Unilever are 'jumping the gun' a bit and Tesco have taken the opportunity to headline as the company who are fighting price rises.
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Boris on what a bad thing a falling pound is
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/3563578/Dont-blame-George-Osborne-the-falling-pound-is-Gordon-Browns-fault.html
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BTW still waiting for that £350 million that is going to increase funds for the NHS, pay the farmers their subsidies, finance scientific research etc, etc.
Even if the £350 million were not fiction, it would still amount to only£18 billion a year - less than one third of the forecast shortfall.
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Express wants to imprison people for expressing their views
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/720169/Parliament-vote-act-EU-Brexit-British-Westminster-MPs
Chris Roycroft Davis and his ilk went to strip me of my rights as an EU citizen. He can fuck off.
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Boris on what a bad thing a falling pound is
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/3563578/Dont-blame-George-Osborne-the-falling-pound-is-Gordon-Browns-fault.html
Actually 'Boris' its your fault for supporting Brexit and then talking about the timetable that the process of Brexit could take. The currency WILL recover eventually - currencies always do - but the timetable for that is open to debate.
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Anton Muscatelli on possible Brexits
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/16/here-is-a-quick-fix-for-our-brexit-dilemmas/
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And the Govemonster rides again!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-michael-gove-mark-carney-mario-draghi-comments-arrogance-bank-of-england-a7373166.html
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And the Govemonster rides again!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-michael-gove-mark-carney-mario-draghi-comments-arrogance-bank-of-england-a7373166.html
This is Michael "I've got no Brexit Plan except to stab my allies in the back" Gove. Why doesn't he just FOAD
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This was mentioned as a possibility in the lead up to the Referendum, and clearly it is still uncertain -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37743700
but it is - as the article says - the uncertainty that is moving organisations to consider such moves. Even if the timetable for |Brexit had been laid out the day after the referendum, the uncertainty would still be there.
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Nissan to build new models in Sunderland
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890
UK economy grows 0.5% in three months after Brexit vote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37786467
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Nissan to build new models in Sunderland
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890
That is really good news, but it looks like they have been bribed by the government i.e. the government will compensate them for losses due to tariffs. That means, of course, that all car manufacturers based in this country will expect the same treatment, which could be problematic with regard to any negotiations with the EU.
UK economy grows 0.5% in three months after Brexit vote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37786467
Not such good news. That is down 0.2% from the previous quarter, although, analysts thought it could be a lot worse.
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You think this is possible? A new brexit vote?
http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/28/news/tony-blair-brexit-new-vote/index.html
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You think this is possible? A new brexit vote?
http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/28/news/tony-blair-brexit-new-vote/index.html
not if Tony leads the charge.
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Blair is king Midas in reverse.
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not if Tony leads the charge.
There is precedent. A charge led by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage got us into this mess.
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You think this is possible? A new brexit vote?
http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/28/news/tony-blair-brexit-new-vote/index.html
The problem with the 3 options Blair refers to is this. A vote in Parliament doesn't necessarily reflect the view of the majority - look, for instance, at the disconnect between Labour MPs and the members of that party. A General Election rarely, if ever, gives a definitive answer on a single issue. That's why we have referenda.
The final option - a 2nd referendum would need to be far more effectively controlled. A majority of 50%+1 wouldn't give a clear answer at all - either way. It would have to be on the understanding of a 60/40 or even a 65/35 majority.
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The problem with the 3 options Blair refers to is this. A vote in Parliament doesn't necessarily reflect the view of the majority - look, for instance, at the disconnect between Labour MPs and the members of that party. A General Election rarely, if ever, gives a definitive answer on a single issue. That's why we have referenda.
The final option - a 2nd referendum would need to be far more effectively controlled. A majority of 50%+1 wouldn't give a clear answer at all - either way. It would have to be on the understanding of a 60/40 or even a 65/35 majority.
[/quote
Whoa - playing around with the result of a referendum did not go well for Labour in 1979....that was about the time grass roots labourites in Scotland began to doubt the leadership....and the rest is history (as is the Labour stranglehold of Scotland)
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That's why we have referenda.
No it is not.
In the UK we don't have referenda. Where there have been referenda they have been for other - mainly - party management purposes, not for assessing popular opinion. Wilson used his EEC referendum do keep Tony Benn under control. Cameron used to PR referendum to show his coalition partners who was in charge. He used the EU referendum to keep his paleolithic wing under control - and they then clubbed him to political death.
We do not have referenda, we have representative government. Edmund Burke, over 200 years ago explained the role of the member of Parliament:
Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
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The final option - a 2nd referendum would need to be far more effectively controlled. A majority of 50%+1 wouldn't give a clear answer at all - either way. It would have to be on the understanding of a 60/40 or even a 65/35 majority.
Why is everybody acting as though all the referendums we had in the past did give clear answers then?
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Many stories about the Nissan deal are circulating, but it looks as if Nissan have been promised tariff free access to European markets. It's unclear whether other companies will get this, and as Keir Starmer pointed out, Nissan now know more about this than MPs or voters! Commercial secrecy is one thing, but this is becoming ridiculous. Brexit means Brexit, but what that means is not for you to know.
I guess, reading between the lines, May is worried about softening Brexit, and the reaction of the hard mob.
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A free trade deal between the EU and Canada, with 99% of tariffs removed and Canada has not had to accept the free movement of people. A model for the UK agreement perhaps?
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A free trade deal between the EU and Canada, with 99% of tariffs removed and Canada has not had to accept the free movement of people. A model for the UK agreement perhaps?
Let's hope so. But it has taken a long time for Canada/EU to get to this agreement. And Canada has the advantage of not being a former member - I suspect different rules will apply if we ever get around to negotiating a deal, due to the internal pressures within the EU to not to be seen rewarding our isolationist stance.
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Exactly. Many journalists are saying that the EU will never give the UK free trade without free movement. It makes it too attractive to leave.
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Let's hope so. But it has taken a long time for Canada/EU to get to this agreement. And Canada has the advantage of not being a former member - I suspect different rules will apply if we ever get around to negotiating a deal, due to the internal pressures within the EU to not to be seen rewarding our isolationist stance.
8 years, and also an example of something that many people voted to avoid by voting to leave, see for example Jack Knave. But then Brexit means Brexit
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A free trade deal between the EU and Canada, with 99% of tariffs removed and Canada has not had to accept the free movement of people. A model for the UK agreement perhaps?
It took seven years and was still nearly scuppered by a single province in Belgium. We won't get the same deal.
Plus, we'll have to start again with Canada once we leave the EU.