Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Bubbles on July 15, 2016, 05:33:22 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36806795
Go in looking for Picachu, find Jesus instead ???
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36806795
Go in looking for Picachu, find Jesus instead ???
Why is it any more desparate than shops or other cultural entities offering themselves as Pokestops. The number of people we have through our church door who, when asked about their experience, say that it was nothing like they had expected. None of the tub-thumping, finger-wagging, cold-shouldering that they feel when they see churches and congregations represented on TV, etc.
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None of the tub-thumping, finger-wagging, cold-shouldering that they feel when they see churches and congregations represented on TV, etc.
But the same reason-numbing, daft stories.
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But the same reason-numbing, daft stories.
No more so than some of the hypothetical evolutionary stories that are taught in schools without any solid evidence.
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No more so than some of the hypothetical evolutionary stories that are taught in schools without any solid evidence.
Such as?
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Such as?
Currently there is no definitive link between humanoids and other animals. In schools, the idea is taught as fact,whereas it should be being taught as a hypothesis until such time as a link is actually found.
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Currently there is no definitive link between humanoids and other animals.
What do you mean by both 'humanoid' and 'other animals'?
For instance, are you referring to the science showing the shared ancestry between say 'Homo' (just us these days) and 'Pan' (chimpanzees and bonobos), along with the evolution of primates - or are you referring to different 'other animals'?
In schools, the idea is taught as fact,whereas it should be being taught as a hypothesis until such time as a link is actually found.
I'm not sure about what is being taught in schools, but since my elder grandson is 14 and in 3rd year at secondary school I'll ask him let me see the material on this.
Evolution is an observed fact though, and the TofE is the current provisional hypothesis that explains these facts - so are you saying that the considerable body of science behind evolutionary biology (on which the school syllabus is presumably based) is wrong, or are you saying that schools are misrepresenting the 'Theory' aspect?
I'm not clear on what point you are trying to make here.
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Why is it any more desparate than shops or other cultural entities offering themselves as Pokestops. The number of people we have through our church door who, when asked about their experience, say that it was nothing like they had expected. None of the tub-thumping, finger-wagging, cold-shouldering that they feel when they see churches and congregations represented on TV, etc.
We don't have to go to church for the tub-thumping, finger-wagging, cold-shouldering - we get it in this forum! Mentioning no names, of course!
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Currently there is no definitive link between humanoids and other animals. In schools, the idea is taught as fact,whereas it should be being taught as a hypothesis until such time as a link is actually found.
Thanks Hope, you have just gone from and know-it-all, know everybody to a certified ID nut-case!
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Thanks Hope, you have just gone from and know-it-all, know everybody to a certified ID nut-case!
In that case, perhas you ought to inform the various scientists that I know and who tell me this kind of thing that they, too, are 'ID nut-cases'. As I am not an expert in this particular field, I have to rely on those who are.
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We don't have to go to church for the tub-thumping, finger-wagging, cold-shouldering - we get it in this forum! Mentioning no names, of course!
I know, I suffer from their consequences quite a lot.
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Currently there is no definitive link between humanoids and other animals. In schools, the idea is taught as fact,whereas it should be being taught as a hypothesis until such time as a link is actually found.
eh?
Have you been living in a cave for the last 150 years ? Evolutionary theory is not a hypothesis it is a theory, the difference being that is founded on evidence and no other theory in science stands on the same depth and breadth of evidence as evolutionary theory. If you are going to dismiss evolutionary theory as 'not proved' then you must dismiss the entirety of all scientific knowledge as not proved as science doesn't even pretend to deal in proofs
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What do you mean by both 'humanoid' and 'other animals'?
For instance, are you referring to the science showing the shared ancestry between say 'Homo' (just us these days) and 'Pan' (chimpanzees and bonobos), along with the evolution of primates - or are you referring to different 'other animals'?
I'm not sure about what is being taught in schools, but since my elder grandson is 14 and in 3rd year at secondary school I'll ask him let me see the material on this.
Evolution is an observed fact though, and the TofE is the current provisional hypothesis that explains these facts - so are you saying that the considerable body of science behind evolutionary biology (on which the school syllabus is presumably based) is wrong, or are you saying that schools are misrepresenting the 'Theory' aspect?
I'm not clear on what point you are trying to make here.
We are wandering off subject here!
The genus which throws the spanner into the theory is the extinct man ape genus Paranthropus This is really a science thread subject :)
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I doubt the churches which preach the ghastly, 'you must be born again, or else', dogma are going to offer themselves as Pokestops. Wow that would have made having to go to church a lot more fun when I was a kid. Listening to those unpleasant sermons, which lasted for nearly two hours was my idea of hell!
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We don't have to go to church for the tub-thumping, finger-wagging, cold-shouldering - we get it in this forum.
Yeh......from you.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36806795
Go in looking for Picachu, find Jesus instead ???
I really do not believe there is a connection to finding Christ whilst looking for Picachu.
Playing a game somewhere will not lead you to Christ.
We view things differently... whatever activity you do and wherever you do it, won't lead you to Christ.
Only the search for truth about God can lead us to Christ. Someone who wants to know the truth for the sake of it.
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In that case, perhas you ought to inform the various scientists that I know and who tell me this kind of thing that they, too, are 'ID nut-cases'. As I am not an expert in this particular field, I have to rely on those who are.
Why did I never doubt that you "Know (scientists) who tell me this kind of thing"!
Please give me their names and addresses and I WILL tell them that, in my opinion, they are ID nut-cases and I will post a copy of each my letters on here!
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I know, I suffer from their consequences quite a lot.
This from Tub-thumper #2!
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Yeh......from you.
Thank you Tub-thumper #3 - and no. I am NOT Tub-thumper #1 - she has just returned from suspension!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36814165/man-in-new-zealand-quits-his-job-to-play-pokemon-go-full-time
A little off topic! The guy must have several screws loose!
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I doubt the churches which preach the ghastly, 'you must be born again, or else', dogma are going to offer themselves as Pokestops. Wow that would have made having to go to church a lot more fun when I was a kid. Listening to those unpleasant sermons, which lasted for nearly two hours was my idea of hell!
Very unsuitable for children. Churches were not child-friendly when we were kids, apart from Sunday school which was generally quite nice. Expecting children to sit in church for two hours is appalling. I wouldn't do it now never mind when I was a kid, I'd have kicked up such a big fuss.
As for long sermons, they are often more about the ego of the speaker than anything else. A short homily is quite sufficient, thank you.
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from: Hope on Today at 08:36:04
In that case, perhas you ought to inform the various scientists that I know and who tell me this kind of thing that they, too, are 'ID nut-cases'. As I am not an expert in this particular field, I have to rely on those who are.
Why did I never doubt that you "Know (scientists) who tell me this kind of thing"!
Please give me their names and addresses and I WILL tell them that, in my opinion, they are ID nut-cases and I will post a copy of each my letters on here!
Come on Hope - names and addresses please!
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Currently there is no definitive link between humanoids and other animals.
citation please.
..and what would a 'definitive link' look like exactly?
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In that case, perhas you ought to inform the various scientists that I know and who tell me this kind of thing that they, too, are 'ID nut-cases'. As I am not an expert in this particular field, I have to rely on those who are.
Please give their names and locations and let's see how quickly we can get them sacked.
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Please give their names and locations and let's see how quickly we can get them sacked.
A better proposal than mine and just as unlikely to get a response from Mr Dodgit!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36814165/man-in-new-zealand-quits-his-job-to-play-pokemon-go-full-time
A little off topic! The guy must have several screws loose!
It's not him that has several screws loose, but us reliable solid characters that go to work every day. ( or those of us that choose the safe, secure path)
It's not much different to when my youngest took a chance by leaving his employment to tour Europe with a friend for 3 months.
No responsibilities of a family yet, so why not? He saved the money he needed himself.
When he came back they gave him a pay rise, and he got his old job back anyway.
Perhaps the man in the article has saved up enough to leave work to do what he wants to do, and he wants to play Pokemon.
Different things suit different people.
Wouldn't it be lovely to just go off and do something else for a bit?
We only live once, and we all hang onto security.............
But really, sometimes I don't think it's the best choice.
We all seem to live like we are going to always have time, and chances are we don't.
Sometimes it pays to go for it, take a chance, experience something.
I do wish I didn't always chicken out and go for the sensible path :-\
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There is still time Rose.
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Such as?
How about the whale once had legs then evolved his legs off his body ::) and went into the sea.
~TW~
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Please give their names and locations and let's see how quickly we can get them sacked.
OK, here are a couple to be getting on with - Sir John Houghton, Dr Denis Alexander, Revd Dr John Weaver.
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Come on Hope - names and addresses please!
Well, you only really need their names in most cases. The 3 I've given you are easily found on the internet.
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Hope,
OK, here are a couple to be getting on with - Sir John Houghton, Dr Denis Alexander, Revd Dr John Weaver.
First, here is your claim:
In that case, perhas you ought to inform the various scientists that I know and who tell me this kind of thing that they, too, are 'ID nut-cases'. As I am not an expert in this particular field, I have to rely on those who are.
Which of these three do you “know" then?
Second, none of them are evolutionary biologists and so none of them are “experts in this particular field” as you put it.
Third, let’s see who they really are then:
John T. Houghton is the president of the John Ray Initiative, an organisation "connecting Environment, Science and Christianity", where he has compared the stewardship of the Earth, to the stewardship of the Garden of Eden by Adam and Eve.
Denis Alexander is the Emeritus Director of the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion at St Edmund's College, Cambridge, a molecular biologist and an author on science and religion. He is also an editor of Science and Christian Belief. He is an evangelical Christian.
John B. Weaver grew up in Goshen, Arkansas, the grandson of two Church of Christ preachers. He completed his undergraduate work at University of Arkansas. He completed his Ph.D. in 2004 at Emory University. He worked as a theological librarian before starting his career at Abilene Christian University in 2011. While at ACU, he has served as the dean of library services and educational technology. Weaver also served as the president of the American Theological Library Association. He has authored one book, Plots of Epiphany.
So rather than quote evolutionary biologists who will show you the overwhelming evidence for the process that led to the emergence of anatomically modern humans you rely instead on three practising Christians of varying degrees of evangelism and no apparent knowledge of the subject at hand to confirm your bias then.
Why not throw in Billy Graham while you're about it?
Good effort.
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Hope,
Well, you only really need their names in most cases. The 3 I've given you are easily found on the internet.
Unfortunately for you, yes they are.
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Hope,
First, here is your claim:
Which of these three do you “know" then?
Second, none of them are evolutionary biologists and so none of them are “experts in this particular field” as you put it.
Third, let’s see who they really are then:
John T. Houghton is the president of the John Ray Initiative, an organisation "connecting Environment, Science and Christianity", where he has compared the stewardship of the Earth, to the stewardship of the Garden of Eden by Adam and Eve.
Denis Alexander is the Emeritus Director of the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion at St Edmund's College, Cambridge, a molecular biologist and an author on science and religion. He is also an editor of Science and Christian Belief. He is an evangelical Christian.
John B. Weaver grew up in Goshen, Arkansas, the grandson of two Church of Christ preachers. He completed his undergraduate work at University of Arkansas. He completed his Ph.D. in 2004 at Emory University. He worked as a theological librarian before starting his career at Abilene Christian University in 2011. While at ACU, he has served as the dean of library services and educational technology. Weaver also served as the president of the American Theological Library Association. He has authored one book, Plots of Epiphany.
So rather than quote evolutionary biologists who will show you the overwhelming evidence for the process that led to the emergence of anatomically modern humans you rely instead on three practising Christians of varying degrees of evangelism and no apparent knowledge of the subject at hand to confirm your bias then.
Why not throw in Billy Graham while you're about it?
Good effort.
Thanks Blue (are you a red-head?)
You have reached the same results and conclusions that I did but your summation as a post is rather more erudite and understandable than mine would ever have been so I have scrapped mine rather than show up my advancing senility!
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Owls,
Thanks Blue (are you a red-head?)
Um, no!
You have reached the same results and conclusions that I did but your summation as a post is rather more erudite and understandable than mine would ever have been so I have scrapped mine rather than show up my advancing senility!
You're too kind. Hope may have been better advised citing, say, Michael Behe. OK, he's utterly discredited but at least he's popped up in various court cases on the subject at hand and so has some link to the subject, however hopeless his position.
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Owls,
Um, no!
I had to ask, any Aussie who is nicknamed Blue has been so called because he/she is a red-head! Typical Aussie logic!
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How about the whale once had legs then evolved his legs off his body ::) and went into the sea.
~TW~
That's because when they look at the skeleton they can see what is left of the legs.
http://www.livescience.com/7564-early-whales-legs.html
It's a bit like Hippos getting more water orientated than they are now and them not using their legs ( your legs become weak if you don't use them)
I could accept that it may not be quite as some scientists describe it with the prewhale striding over the land, it could be more along the lines of crocodiles living near the water, having legs but swimming.
However I don't dismiss it out of hand just because it doesn't fit with one interpretation of the bible.
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Hope,
Unfortunately for you, yes they are.
The gullible leading the even more gullible.
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How about the whale once had legs then evolved his legs off his body ::) and went into the sea.
~TW~
So they did - this (from the Smithsonian) shows the evolutionary history of whales in graphic form.
http://ocean.si.edu/ocean-videos/evolution-whales-animation
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It's not him that has several screws loose, but us reliable solid characters that go to work every day. ( or those of us that choose the safe, secure path)
It's not much different to when my youngest took a chance by leaving his employment to tour Europe with a friend for 3 months.
No responsibilities of a family yet, so why not? He saved the money he needed himself.
When he came back they gave him a pay rise, and he got his old job back anyway.
Perhaps the man in the article has saved up enough to leave work to do what he wants to do, and he wants to play Pokemon.
Different things suit different people.
Wouldn't it be lovely to just go off and do something else for a bit?
We only live once, and we all hang onto security.............
But really, sometimes I don't think it's the best choice.
We all seem to live like we are going to always have time, and chances are we don't.
Sometimes it pays to go for it, take a chance, experience something.
I do wish I didn't always chicken out and go for the sensible path :-\
Yes isn't he what is referred to as a man baby?
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How about the whale once had legs then evolved his legs off his body ::) and went into the sea.
~TW~
Maybe they did.
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So they did - this (from the Smithsonian) shows the evolutionary history of whales in graphic form.
http://ocean.si.edu/ocean-videos/evolution-whales-animation
Is that after nothing went bang. 8)
~TW~
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Is that after nothing went bang. 8)
~TW~
Well after your unique take on the 'Big Bang' - by several billion years.
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No more so than some of the hypothetical evolutionary stories that are taught in schools without any solid evidence.
Please name some of those hypothetical evolutionary stories that are taught in schools without any solid evidence.
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Currently there is no definitive link between humanoids and other animals. In schools, the idea is taught as fact,whereas it should be being taught as a hypothesis until such time as a link is actually found.
What do you mean by "definitive"?
Are you seriously trying to persuade us that humans are not animals? Because I can show you plenty of evidence that humans are mammals. Isn't the fact that we share over 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees enough for you?
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What do you mean by "definitive"?
Are you seriously trying to persuade us that humans are not animals? Because I can show you plenty of evidence that humans are mammals. Isn't the fact that we share over 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees enough for you?
Dear, dear, didn't you know humans descended from Adam and Eve, whom god sculptured in its own image. Oh blimey, I have to start pig counting again as they fly passed my window! :D
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What do you mean by "definitive"?
Are you seriously trying to persuade us that humans are not animals? Because I can show you plenty of evidence that humans are mammals. Isn't the fact that we share over 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees enough for you?
I don't think he said that humans are not animals because he said, "...humanoids (meaning us) and other animals"' he would have said, "...humanoids and animals", had he meant we are not part of the animal kingdom.
Hope has never said we are literally descended from Adam and Eve, floo.
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Brownie,
I don't think he said that humans are not animals because he said, "...humanoids (meaning us) and other animals"' he would have said, "...humanoids and animals", had he meant we are not part of the animal kingdom.
But what he did say was:
Currently there is no definitive link between humanoids and other animals.
There's so much wrong with that sentence that it's hard to know where to begin.
First, there's no "definitive" link between apples falling to the ground and gravity either (I'm assuming, perhaps naively, that he could even tell us what he means by "humanoid" here by the way). Science doesn't do definitives. What it does do though is to identify and test the overwhelming correlative evidence for evolution and gravity alike, and it develops its finding into theories: evolutionary theory; gravity theory; germs causing disease theory; babies coming from Mums' tummies rather than from storks flying through open windows theory etc.
Second, the "link"(s) between anatomically modern humans and other species are so strong that evolutionary theory is arguably better evidenced than, for example, the theory of gravity.
Third, Hope told us first that he knew "scientists" who deny evolutionary biology, then it seems that these supposed scientist weren't known to him at all, then it turns out that they were not in all cases scientists anyway (one is a librarian at a theological college for example), and then that they're not even specialists in the field in which Hope thinks them to be "experts".
Apparently oblivious to all that, Hope then told us that his three sources could be looked up on the internet!
Apart from that though...
Still - there was one scrap of good news about his efforts: he managed to make a whole post without mentioning Nepal. Credit where credit's due I say.
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I don't think he said that humans are not animals because he said, "...humanoids (meaning us) and other animals"' he would have said, "...humanoids and animals", had he meant we are not part of the animal kingdom.
Hope has never said we are literally descended from Adam and Eve, floo.
Assuming that he meant human(meaning us) rather than humanoid(which has an entirely different meaning) and assuming that he meant that we are part of the animal kingdom(which you also assume he meant), then he has contradicted himself in that one sentence by suggesting that there is no definitive link between us and the other animals. The fact that we are part of the animal kingdom is in fact a major link which, if you are right, Hope entirely accepts and contradicts all at the same time.
I confess that I have no real idea what he is trying to say here. Perhaps he may attempt to elucidate.