Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on July 17, 2016, 07:53:46 AM
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The apparent state of the nation torpedos the secular humanist and anti theistic mythos of this board. Namely that there is within society a concensus of reason or a concensus of non bigotry.
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The apparent state of the nation torpedos the secular humanist and anti theistic mythos of this board. Namely that there is within society a concensus of reason or a concensus of non bigotry.
What are you on about now, Vlad?
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What are you on about now, Vlad?
Shut up
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Shut up
OK, thanks for confirming that you're just mumbling nonsense. Perhaps you've got virtual finger diarrhoa.
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OK, thanks for confirming that you're just mumbling nonsense. Perhaps you've got virtual finger diarrhoa.
What I have written is perfectly comprehensible.
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What I have written is perfectly comprehensible.
I made no mention of comprehensibility, Vlad. Nonsense can still be comprehensible. All I would say is that the "secular humanist and anti theistic mythos of this board": ie "that there is within society a concensus of reason or a concensus of non bigotry" has been long under question, both on the board and, since it isn't exclusive to the board, far beyond it. I would question whether the issue of such a consensus is even a secular humanist/anti-theistic idea, and I would also suggest that the Brexit vote (which I assume is what you are referring to when you say 'The apparent state of the nation ...') has no real bearing on the issue you are thinking about. Society has long known that there is no such thing as a consensus of reason/non-bigotry.
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I think Vlad has a point. We like to congratulate ourselves on being a forward looking modern nation espousing liberal minded tolerant views. But consider the dilemma of the labour movement seeing the ease with which their natural working class constituency can vote for Ukip, the opposite end of the political spectrum. Many labour voters don't espouse the liberal ideology of the labour political class and have just said so by voting, in a nutshell, to keep foreigners out even if it means lower living standards.
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I think Vlad has a point. We like to congratulate ourselves on being a forward looking modern nation espousing liberal minded tolerant views. But consider the dilemma of the labour movement seeing the ease with which their natural working class constituency can vote for Ukip, the opposite end of the political spectrum. Many labour voters don't espouse the liberal ideology of the labour political class and have just said so by voting, in a nutshell, to keep foreigners out even if it means lower living standards.
Perhaps the 'political spectrum' needs redefining and the names of political parties changed to represent the change in that spectrum e.g. what does 'natural working class' now mean? It seems to me that manufacturers, for example, either replace basic labouring jobs with new technology, or import cheap labour or transfer their manufacturing to those countries where labour is cheaper.
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It seems to me that manufacturers, for example, either replace basic labouring jobs with new technology, or import cheap labour or transfer their manufacturing to those countries where labour is cheaper.
This is one reason why free movement of labour is important. The manufacturing jobs will be done in places where you can find cheap labour one way or the other. Either the cheap labour moves here, the company moves production to where the labour is cheap or somebody else sets up where the labour is cheap and forces the company into liquidation.
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We should be looking at making energy cheap or free which means using alternative energy to the max and developing it. That is going to mean heavy engineering and community energy production.
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What I have written is perfectly comprehensible.
but completely wrong. Humanists in general do not think anything of the sort.
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We should be looking at making energy cheap or free which means using alternative energy to the max and developing it. That is going to mean heavy engineering and community energy production.
If is was free during winter months then that would certainly ease the financial burden placed on the backs of the people by the Government. One time we owned the fuel and water now foreign countries own them and take all the profits by placing financial burden on the people.
Now we are out of the EU we need to take our fuel back and we need price caps and realistic charges.
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The apparent state of the nation torpedos the secular humanist and anti theistic mythos of this board. Namely that there is within society a concensus of reason or a concensus of non bigotry.
Can you quote anything from the BHA or the NSS to back up that statement?!
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Homophobic hate crime up 147% since Brexit. Source The Guardian.
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Dear Sass,
If is was free during winter months then that would certainly ease the financial burden placed on the backs of the people by the Government. One time we owned the fuel and water now foreign countries own them and take all the profits by placing financial burden on the people.
Now we are out of the EU we need to take our fuel back and we need price caps and realistic charges.
And who would you vote for to have any chance of achieving what you are asking?
Gonnagle.
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Homophobic hate crime up 147% since Brexit. Source The Guardian.
Yes - it was noticeable when on the few occasions I got involved in debate (largely on FB) prior to the vote that some Leavers thought that the fact I was gay was the reason I was voting remain (it wasn't - in fact it never even crossed my mind that that WAS a reason for voting remain) but clearly there was a link in their minds. Some of them were very homophobic with their comments and generally very abusive - that there is a spill over in the same way that there has been an increase in racially motivated hate crimes is not a huge surprise to me.
It, has very little to do with humanism however, its just the underbelly of society doing what the underbelly does.
A more interesting point is however, that no matter how unwittingly, Leave voters have become enablers of hate.
Yet one more positive to take home!
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Yes - it was noticeable when on the few occasions I got involved in debate (largely on FB) prior to the vote that some Leavers thought that the fact I was gay was the reason I was voting remain (it wasn't - in fact it never even crossed my mind that that WAS a reason for voting remain) but clearly there was a link in their minds. Some of them were very homophobic with their comments and generally very abusive - that there is a spill over in the same way that there has been an increase in racially motivated hate crimes is not a huge surprise to me.
It, has very little to do with humanism however, its just the underbelly of society doing what the underbelly does.
A more interesting point is however, that no matter how unwittingly, Leave voters have become enablers of hate.
Yet one more positive to take home!
That this is happening is evidence against a view I feel was promoted in these parts that society is becoming more tolerant with only a few influential theists spoiling the view.
I wonder how conspiracy theorists in the BHS and NSS are going to cope with Racism, Antiintellectualism and homophobia as secular phenomena?
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Dear Sass,
And who would you vote for to have any chance of achieving what you are asking?
Gonnagle.
I believe a new party is required one made up of people from Scotland, Wales and England.
People who have faced the poverty in life and the best life has to offer. Will any Party ever offer it, any power company give it, if the people do not make it known? :o :)
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I believe a new party is required one made up of people from Scotland, Wales and England.
People who have faced the poverty in life and the best life has to offer. Will any Party ever offer it, any power company give it, if the people do not make it known? :o :)
Why only the three mainland nations, Sass? Why not Northern Ireland as well? I'm also not really sure why we need a new party; we already have a number that cover the whole of the UK - Greens, UKIP, Socialist Workers, as well as the 3 mainstream parties.
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A more interesting point is however, that no matter how unwittingly, Leave voters have become enablers of hate.
And which emotion tends to lead to hate? Fear?
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And which emotion tends to lead to hate? Fear?
Well in my experience hatred leads to hate. Why has anyone got to be afraid of Poles or puffs?
Or are you speaking of your own personal experience?
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Why only the three mainland nations, Sass? Why not Northern Ireland as well? I'm also not really sure why we need a new party; we already have a number that cover the whole of the UK - Greens, UKIP, Socialist Workers, as well as the 3 mainstream parties.
I really haven't seen much from Ireland on the EU thing. It is not a problem including them but I was thinking more of those we share this Island with. We need a solid new party which looks at all the needs of the people.
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Dear Sass,
A new party, well that's an idea, and I like new ideas, trouble is I don't see any new parties on the horizon, so I would ask my question differently.
Which of the present parties do you think might even begin to give what you ask for?
Just to remind you of what you are asking.
If is was free during winter months then that would certainly ease the financial burden placed on the backs of the people by the Government. One time we owned the fuel and water now foreign countries own them and take all the profits by placing financial burden on the people.
Now we are out of the EU we need to take our fuel back and we need price caps and realistic charges.
Oh and by the way, I kind of agree with what you suggest.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sass, A new party, well that's an idea, and I like new ideas, trouble is I don't see any new parties on the horizon, so I would ask my question differently. Which of the present parties do you think might even begin to give what you ask for? Just to remind you of what you are asking. Oh and by the way, I kind of agree with what you suggest. Gonnagle.
Quibble alert...... Gonners, you should have alerted Sass to her error. We STILL own the water up here - thankfully! This, along with so many other things, simply points out the increasingly fragmentary nature of the disunited kingdom. No party could satisfy all the aspirations of all the nations which make up an increasingly polarised union.
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Dear Jim,
Well that is something I was not aware of, so I blame the Scottish government for our water charges ::) I wonder! do we export this wonderful bounty of nature that us Scots are so privileged to have, if you have ever lived in Essex or London you will certainly know the difference between our lovely soft water and the poor Englishman's hard water, a Brita filter is a necessity. :P
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jim, Well that is something I was not aware of, so I blame the Scottish government for our water charges ::) I wonder! do we export this wonderful bounty of nature that us Scots are so privileged to have, if you have ever lived in Essex or London you will certainly know the difference between our lovely soft water and the poor Englishman's hard water, a Brita filter is a necessity. :P Gonnagle.
This goes way before devolution, Gonners. When the Tories were hell bent on selling of the family silver - as MacMillan put it - the old Strathclyde held a consultative referendum on the future of water - and not unsurprisingly, the public wanted to retAain control. Thus when Westminster made a pigs ear of trying to raise cash on essentials, Scotland's water remained in Scotland's hands.
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Dear Jim,
Well this just gives me another excuse to rant at the Tories, life's essentials should never rest in private hands, water, electricity and gas, these are things that we all need to live in this modern society, no profit should be made from these very basics, which is why I have some sympathy for our Sass's post, no human being should face the choice between feeding themselves or staying warm.
Come this winter we will face more horror stories of pensioners or the poor having to face this hardship, thankfully here in Glasgow they have retained the extra money to give to pensioners, the heating grant, well I think they have still retained it ???
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jim,
Well this just gives me another excuse to rant at the Tories, life's essentials should never rest in private hands, water, electricity and gas, these are things that we all need to live in this modern society, no profit should be made from these very basics, which is why I have some sympathy for our Sass's post, no human being should face the choice between feeding themselves or staying warm.
Come this winter we will face more horror stories of pensioners or the poor having to face this hardship, thankfully here in Glasgow they have retained the extra money to give to pensioners, the heating grant, well I think they have still retained it ???
Gonnagle.
The cold weather payments will come under Holyrood's control by April next year, Gonners.
(Not before time....! )
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Quibble alert...... Gonners, you should have alerted Sass to her error.
Point of order Jim.
I know that you have been away for a while but you really must remember that Sassy is never, ever wrong.
About anything.
Ever.
And lest you forget, she will point that out to you in big and/or bold letters.
Now carry on please......
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Point of order Jim. I know that you have been away for a while but you really must remember that Sassy is never, ever wrong. About anything. Ever. And lest you forget, she will point that out to you in big and/or bold letters. Now carry on please......
Still a bit rusty, Seb. I had temporarily blanked Sass's omniscience from the dim recesses of my mind. Plus, thankfully, bold shouty bits don't work with my screen reader. Shame. innit?
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Plus, thankfully, bold shouty bits don't work with my screen reader. Shame. innit?
Oh you luck man!