Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Bubbles on August 01, 2016, 12:58:47 PM
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Hi
I was interested in some comments on destiny so will post a few posts to raise discussion in that direction.
Quote from: Rose on Today at 10:45:04 AM
Im a believer in fighting destiny, if it's wrong.
I'm certainly not going to accept something just because it is.
The whole point IMO is to get up and fight it.
Not resign yourself to it.
There may be nothing in the overall picture you can change, but it's important to stand up and fight the wrongness if you see it.
Post by Sriram
? ? ? ?
You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.
Post by Harrowby Hall
Destiny, Sriram? Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?
Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't even know where we are going?
No. I decide what I want to achieve and how I am going to get it. Some things in my life I have strived for and I have achieved them. Some things I have abandoned - but I deliberately did so. If humanity had placed its trust in destiny we would still be living in caves.
And as for the UK, the USA and the EU, we have not left the EU yet, and it may be several years before we do - if we do. I am hoping that the USA will see that it deserves more than the odious, vacuous, obnoxious Donald Trump as its chief executive and works to ensure it happens.
Post by Sriram
Alright! Destiny is a subject that is outside the scope of this discussion...and is a very big subject in itself. So lets leave that aside.
About Trump....let us see what happens and then react.
So how would you Sriram answer the questions in Harrowby's Post?
Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?
Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't even know where we are going?
So destiny, is there such a thing?
What is destiny? Should we fight it ? Or accept it?
Is destiny always right? As I feel Srirams post implies.
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This was my response to Srirams post
Quote from: Sriram on Today at 10:48:09 AM
? ? ? ?
You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
My response
I've never heard that before.
"Destiny decides what's right and wrong"?
Destiny to me is just a future that is just thought of, as being unavoidable.
IMO it is me that decides what is right and wrong, if I see a series of events as unavoidable then it's up to me how I react to it.
So say the holocaust was destiny, it's up to me to fight the wrongness in it. ( or of one I encounter in the future)
Just because an event is inevitable, doesn't make it right.
I think I see it as important to my " path" in life, that I fight a perceived wrongness in any destiny.
Does that make sense?
In some ways I am independant of destiny.
Like everyone else, I just live through it and my only choices are how I react to things around me.
I guess it's just how I personally see my path through life.
???
Please add your thoughts.
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Hi
I was interested in some comments on destiny so will post a few posts to raise discussion in that direction.
So how would you Sriram answer the questions in Harrowby's Post?
So destiny, is there such a thing?
What is destiny? Should we fight it ? Or accept it?
Is destiny always right? As I feel Srirams post implies.
No such thing as destiny; or at least no justification for such a position.
What the evidence does suggest, is that whatever indeterminacy may exist in base levels of reality averages out at the level of natural laws that affect our everyday lives, resulting in determinism, for all practical purposes. This is superficially a similar position to destiny, but without the teleological overtones.
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It is quite simple: there is no such thing as destiny, nothing that is 'meant to be'. Because we humans have had long experience of living, we know that the world will keep turning, and that all living things will die.
Our evolved brains enable us to imagine what might or might not happen in the future, but there is nothing actually existing beyond this moment. Any belief that there is, is a delusion.
(Okay, I am ignoring relativity where it might be an hour or so ahead of Earth time somewhere else in the universe!)
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If everything is predestined shouldn't we all just sit on the sofa and wait for it all to happen?
It must save a lot of bother and time not worrying about things or not trying to change things.
Still if all Indians had just sat at home would Gandhi's movement for independence been as successful as it was?
And I know I'm being oversimplistic with my argument - but that's because I think the whole idea of Destiny is oversimplistic and quite frankly a cop out.
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Some are destined to believe in Destiny and some are not.
Luckily she has arranged things to ensure that there are enough people whose destiny is to rush around trying to achieve something or other. The rest of us can spectate.
Ultimately we are destined to be unable to do anything about anything!
hmm... just like India?
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Destiny might not be the right word. I don't know what Sriram was implying as I haven't read the thread involved, but perhaps the idea is associated with Karma and Samsara where actions in one life predispose you to reactions in the same life but in a later reincarnation. I think that the idea is not to sit back and let it happen but to work towards moksha or freedom from those cycles of birth and rebirth.
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Destiny might not be the right word. I don't know what Sriram was implying as I haven't read the thread involved, but perhaps the idea is associated with Karma and Samsara where actions in one life predispose you to reactions in the same life but in a later reincarnation. I think that the idea is not to sit back and let it happen but to work towards moksha or freedom from those cycles of birth and rebirth.
SSuch a waste of living and thinking time though, to spend any of it worrying that one might be messing things up, instead of understanding oneself as a human being, behaving and being as the humans we have evolved to be; taking both credit and responsibility for all we do, not ascribing it to some imagined source.
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Life is what we make of it, imo.
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SSuch a waste of living and thinking time though, to spend any of it worrying that one might be messing things up, instead of understanding oneself as a human being, behaving and being as the humans we have evolved to be; taking both credit and responsibility for all we do, not ascribing it to some imagined source.
That sounds like the politicians' charter but, yes, understanding oneself is part of the process of moksha, I believe, so that one is not driven to act by past predispositions especially when they are self centred. However, some, it seems, can be predisposed towards a lazy fatalism e.g. what can I do, it's in my karma or it's God's Will.
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Hi Rose,
Life is predetermined....that is almost certain. Initial conditions determining subsequent events is a part of Chaos theory. Once initial conditions are set, all other events follow automatically....unless there is some kind of external influence. Therefore predetermination is not under question, I think.
Whether this predetermination happens due to chance factors (as atheists believe) or due to some Conscious intervention (as I and many others believe) is a matter of debate.
Conscious predetermination is what I call destiny. It has a set goal and objective for life.
I will not be able to prove that there is such a conscious intervention. It is just something I believe.
Good night!
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Sriram
Show me an atheist who believes in predetermination!
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Sriram
Show me an atheist who believes in predetermination!
You just don't know your fellow atheists...do you?! Just ask around this board and you'll find many.
It's a scientific idea, not a supernatural one.
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You just don't know your fellow atheists...do you?! Just ask around this board and you'll find many.
It's a scientific idea, not a supernatural one.
What is your definition of:
(a) pre-determination
(b) destiny
My death is pre-determined, i,e. that it will happen but the actual cause and date are not pre-determined.
You were asked to show HH an atheist who believes in pre-determination. You think 'many' atheists on this board believe in destiny? Name them!! Or did you accidentally on purpose confuse that term with pre-determination, or your version of it?
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You just don't know your fellow atheists...do you?! Just ask around this board and you'll find many.
It's a scientific idea, not a supernatural one.
Not really.
Just to be pedantic, 'predeterminism' is not a scientific idea, it carries a teleological implication; whilst determinism might sound superficially similar to predeterminism and predestination, the difference is that the latter two both imply a conscious purposeful direction to events. Determinism merely acknowledges the apparent fidelity and inevitability inherent in natural law and draws conclusions from that.
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Not really.
Just to be pedantic, 'predeterminism' is not a scientific idea, it carries a teleological implication; whilst determinism might sound superficially similar to predeterminism and predestination, the difference is that the latter two both imply a conscious purposeful direction to events. Determinism merely acknowledges the apparent fidelity and inevitability inherent in natural law and draws conclusions from that.
You are being pedantic...yes! :) you know very well what I mean by predetermination. We have discussed it before.
Anyway...guys, I will not be available for a couple of weeks as I am off to Europe.
I'll be staying at the Copthorne Kensington, London for a couple of days before proceeding to Paris. If you happen to see a guy, brown, spectacles, french beard and looking very touristy....that's probably me! :D
I hope the ISIS maintains a low profile!
Cheers.
Sriram
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Have a good trip. Be sure to try a pint of English bitter. If you get homesick for a veg thali you could head to Wembley or Southall - there are huge Indian communities there. ;)
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Have a good trip. Be sure to try a pint of English bitter. If you get homesick for a veg thali you could head to Wembley or Southall - there are huge Indian communities there. ;)
Thanks torridon.
Since London is the beginning of the trip I think we'll prefer some western food (veg) for a change. I am sure however that by the time we complete the tour we'll be dying for some Indian food! :D
Cheers......see you later.
Sriram
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You are being pedantic...yes! :) you know very well what I mean by predetermination. We have discussed it before.
Anyway...guys, I will not be available for a couple of weeks as I am off to Europe.
I'll be staying at the Copthorne Kensington, London for a couple of days before proceeding to Paris. If you happen to see a guy, brown, spectacles, french beard and looking very touristy....that's probably me! :D
I hope the ISIS maintains a low profile!
Cheers.
Sriram
If you should see Jack Knave on the plane, do not call out Hi Jack. Hope you have a good holiday. Be sure to bring some sunshine with you, we have already had our two days of summer.
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Have a good trip, Sriram.
I am in SW France at the moment. I think that you would prefer the weather where I am. It's sunny with clear blue skies (rather humid, though). But that's my destiny - the devil looks after his own ....
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Some are destined to believe in Destiny and some are not.
Bugger!!!!
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If you should see Jack Knave on the plane, do not call out Hi Jack.
Unless he stows away on my private jet he won't see me!!! ;D
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Hi everyone,
I am back in India after a wonderful but hectic two weeks. Covered most of Europe from London, north sea to Rome.
Europe is very different (as is to be expected) from what I saw in 1971. And even London is somewhat different from what I saw in 1995.
They are still wonderful and beautiful places and we had lots of fun. People generally were very good and warm. Great infrastructure and facilities. No noise, no pollution. Not a single hitch in the whole trip. People have lot of pride and respect for history.
You guys started off with great facilities and infrastructure more than 100 years back...which is truly amazing! We in India are only now trying to catch up.
However, what struck me was that India has now become very similar to these places in the past few decades. When I came back I didn't really find India to be very different. It is of course, much more densely populated, dirtier and chaotic with lot more poverty.....but lots of things are now more or less similar.
1. European cities are now dirtier than what I remember. Paris in particular was filthy in some parts. Lots of poor people hanging around. Heathrow airport is surely dirtier than I remember it.
2. Small towns like Eindhoven, Volendam, Cologne, Black forest, Lucerne etc. were beautiful little places. Almost pristine.
3. Cafe culture is everywhere but they don't seem to welcome tourists or coloured people in such places.
4. Indian food (veg) is available EVERYWHERE. We had great Indian food for lunch and dinner all the 15 days all across Europe.....imagine that!! Many Indian restaurants in Netherlands, Florence, Pisa and even up Mount Titlis and Jungfrau in Switzerland. Great!
5. We also tried lots of European food but it was disappointing. We get better crepes, waffles, pizzas, pasta, French fries etc. where I live. Cheese is not something I enjoy much anyway.
6. What was surprising compared to my earlier visits, was that pornography was conspicuous by its absence. Completely nil! Not a single magazine or paper anywhere. The only nude we saw was David by Michaelangelo (ans other sundry chaps)! This is a great development. And this is true even in Netherlands(Amsterdam), France, Germany, Swiss and Italy. Very surprising!! Internet has been largely responsible for that I suppose.
7. Smoking seems to be very common in Europe while in India we have banned it in all public places including streets. Drinking is also very common of course in all cafes in every street corner.
8. Bollywood seems to be more prominent in Madame Tussaud's than Hollywood, quite surprisingly. (I even took a selfie with my favorite heroine Katrina - my sister in law says we look like father/daughter, which is besides the point ....... >:().
9. Lots of Chinese/Korean/Japanese tourists everywhere.
10. Brexit or even the recession doesn't seem to have done much damage. Everything looks wonderful (at least to a tourist).
You guys have a great country and have managed to maintain it well over the centuries. All credit to you guys. Keep it that way.
Just some random comments. :)
Cheers.
Sriram
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Nice to hear your thoughts, Sririam.
Only one quibble - I wouldn't call Cologne a small town!
And Cologne is now much dirtier than it used to be. I've been going there for the last 20 years and there has been a gradual deterioration in the state of its cleanliness and overall maintenance.
Still a great place to visit though :D
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Hi everyone,
I am back in India after a wonderful but hectic two weeks. Covered most of Europe from London, north sea to Rome.
Europe is very different (as is to be expected) from what I saw in 1971. And even London is somewhat different from what I saw in 1995.
They are still wonderful and beautiful places and we had lots of fun. People generally were very good and warm. Great infrastructure and facilities. No noise, no pollution. Not a single hitch in the whole trip. People have lot of pride and respect for history.
You guys started off with great facilities and infrastructure more than 100 years back...which is truly amazing! We in India are only now trying to catch up.
However, what struck me was that India has now become very similar to these places in the past few decades. When I came back I didn't really find India to be very different. It is of course, much more densely populated, dirtier and chaotic with lot more poverty.....but lots of things are now more or less similar.
1. European cities are now dirtier than what I remember. Paris in particular was filthy in some parts. Lots of poor people hanging around. Heathrow airport is surely dirtier than I remember it.
2. Small towns like Eindhoven, Volendam, Cologne, Black forest, Lucerne etc. were beautiful little places. Almost pristine.
3. Cafe culture is everywhere but they don't seem to welcome tourists or coloured people in such places.
4. Indian food (veg) is available EVERYWHERE. We had great Indian food for lunch and dinner all the 15 days all across Europe.....imagine that!! Many Indian restaurants in Netherlands, Florence, Pisa and even up Mount Titlis and Jungfrau in Switzerland. Great!
5. We also tried lots of European food but it was disappointing. We get better crepes, waffles, pizzas, pasta, French fries etc. where I live. Cheese is not something I enjoy much anyway.
6. What was surprising compared to my earlier visits, was that pornography was conspicuous by its absence. Completely nil! Not a single magazine or paper anywhere. The only nude we saw was David by Michaelangelo (ans other sundry chaps)! This is a great development. And this is true even in Netherlands(Amsterdam), France, Germany, Swiss and Italy. Very surprising!! Internet has been largely responsible for that I suppose.
7. Smoking seems to be very common in Europe while in India we have banned it in all public places including streets. Drinking is also very common of course in all cafes in every street corner.
8. Bollywood seems to be more prominent in Madame Tussaud's than Hollywood, quite surprisingly. (I even took a selfie with my favorite heroine Katrina - my sister in law says we look like father/daughter, which is besides the point ....... >:().
9. Lots of Chinese/Korean/Japanese tourists everywhere.
10. Brexit or even the recession doesn't seem to have done much damage. Everything looks wonderful (at least to a tourist).
You guys have a great country and have managed to maintain it well over the centuries. All credit to you guys. Keep it that way.
Just some random comments. :)
Cheers.
Sriram
Nice to read your perspectives, and glad you enjoyed the trip. I might be doing the reverse later, got a wedding in India coming up and I haven't been for a few years now so am looking forward to seeing how things have changed since the days when I used to go backpacking around India and Nepal ..
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Thanks Trent and torridon.
India is definitely different in many ways compared to a few decades ago. Of course, all change is not necessarily an improvement. In many ways I prefer the India of the 1960's. But 90% of the people were in abject poverty at that time.
In recent decades we have managed to bring about 50% (600 million people - population has quadrupled during this time) out of poverty. Only another 600 million to go! :D Hopefully it will happen in the coming decades.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Sriram: 3. Cafe culture is everywhere but they don't seem to welcome tourists or coloured people in such places.
Sririam, that can't be true in London or Greater London, nor lots of other places in England!
What colour were the people who were not welcome? Purple, green or kaleidoscopic?
We don't say, "Coloured" any more, naughty you. Smacks of SA apartheid and American slavery.
Very glad you had such a good time and nice to see you back here - a place where you are destined to post.
(Torridon, I envy you your trip to India. I've been to Indian and Pakistani weddings here in London but they must be even more spectacular there.)
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Sriram: 3. Cafe culture is everywhere but they don't seem to welcome tourists or coloured people in such places.
Sririam, that can't be true in London or Greater London, nor lots of other places in England!
What colour were the people who were not welcome? Purple, green or kaleidoscopic?
We don't say, "Coloured" any more, naughty you. Smacks of SA apartheid and American slavery.
Very glad you had such a good time and nice to see you back here - a place where you are destined to post.
(Torridon, I envy you your trip to India. I've been to Indian and Pakistani weddings here in London but they must be even more spectacular there.)
Hi Brownie......I don't know about England....but in the whole of Europe we found a cafe almost every hundred yards.....but not a single brown or black or Japanese person sitting in it. Quite odd. In fact we four tried to eat in a cafe in France (near the Louvre)...and the manager said something in French...and something about his manner... that didn't seem welcoming. So we moved on.
Anyway, we had a great time!
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You'd be welcome in cafes here Sririam but never mind, too late now. Next time.
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Hi everyone,
I am back in India after a wonderful but hectic two weeks. Covered most of Europe from London, north sea to Rome.
Europe is very different (as is to be expected) from what I saw in 1971. And even London is somewhat different from what I saw in 1995.
They are still wonderful and beautiful places and we had lots of fun. People generally were very good and warm. Great infrastructure and facilities. No noise, no pollution. Not a single hitch in the whole trip. People have lot of pride and respect for history.
You guys started off with great facilities and infrastructure more than 100 years back...which is truly amazing! We in India are only now trying to catch up.
However, what struck me was that India has now become very similar to these places in the past few decades. When I came back I didn't really find India to be very different. It is of course, much more densely populated, dirtier and chaotic with lot more poverty.....but lots of things are now more or less similar.
1. European cities are now dirtier than what I remember. Paris in particular was filthy in some parts. Lots of poor people hanging around. Heathrow airport is surely dirtier than I remember it.
2. Small towns like Eindhoven, Volendam, Cologne, Black forest, Lucerne etc. were beautiful little places. Almost pristine.
3. Cafe culture is everywhere but they don't seem to welcome tourists or coloured people in such places.
4. Indian food (veg) is available EVERYWHERE. We had great Indian food for lunch and dinner all the 15 days all across Europe.....imagine that!! Many Indian restaurants in Netherlands, Florence, Pisa and even up Mount Titlis and Jungfrau in Switzerland. Great!
5. We also tried lots of European food but it was disappointing. We get better crepes, waffles, pizzas, pasta, French fries etc. where I live. Cheese is not something I enjoy much anyway.
6. What was surprising compared to my earlier visits, was that pornography was conspicuous by its absence. Completely nil! Not a single magazine or paper anywhere. The only nude we saw was David by Michaelangelo (ans other sundry chaps)! This is a great development. And this is true even in Netherlands(Amsterdam), France, Germany, Swiss and Italy. Very surprising!! Internet has been largely responsible for that I suppose.
7. Smoking seems to be very common in Europe while in India we have banned it in all public places including streets. Drinking is also very common of course in all cafes in every street corner.
8. Bollywood seems to be more prominent in Madame Tussaud's than Hollywood, quite surprisingly. (I even took a selfie with my favorite heroine Katrina - my sister in law says we look like father/daughter, which is besides the point ....... >:().
9. Lots of Chinese/Korean/Japanese tourists everywhere.
10. Brexit or even the recession doesn't seem to have done much damage. Everything looks wonderful (at least to a tourist).
You guys have a great country and have managed to maintain it well over the centuries. All credit to you guys. Keep it that way.
Just some random comments. :)
Cheers.
Sriram
Hi Sriram
I missed your original post..... not around here so much now, due to one thing and another; so had no idea you were travelling over our way!
Glad to hear you enjoyed your trip. Looks as though you covered a lot of ground in a relatively short time. Perhaps you're back home now relaxing!
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Hi Sriram
I missed your original post..... not around here so much now, due to one thing and another; so had no idea you were travelling over our way!
Glad to hear you enjoyed your trip. Looks as though you covered a lot of ground in a relatively short time. Perhaps you're back home now relaxing!
Hi SweetPea,
Nice to hear from you. Yes....I am back home.
The trip was tight but surprisingly not at all tiring. It was so well organized by the tour operator that things worked like clock work. Very comfortable and yet quite extensive.
Almost thinking of repeating it after a few years. :)
Cheers.
Sriram
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You mentioned widespread smoking in Europe, Sririam. Smoking has been banned in public places here for goodness knows how long, there are very few places that people can smoke, it's even banned sitting at a table outside a cafe. Some pubs have designated smoking areas outdoors. Your posts make me think you hardly visited England :(.
In France smoking has always been deeply embedded culturally so maybe you see more of it there. Not in restaurants though, surely. When I visited France and Belgium not that long ago, all hotel rooms were officially non-smoking - but there were ashtrays in every one ;D.
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Hi Sriram
Pleased that you enjoyed your trip.
Re: Café culture comments - much of Europe currently is very frightened of brown faces due to fear of random assaults by supposed supporters of IS. And some countries (certainly France, where I am now) do not have the benefit of the associations with India that the UK has. To the French, in general, a brown face means Maghreb - north Africa and Islam. in the UK we generally are aware of the differing cultures of India.
There are many areas of British life that the descendents of Indian immigrants seem to have made their own - professions associated with health such as pharmacy and optometry being notable. It is difficult to find a chemist's shop now where the pharmacist will not be of Indian origin.
People from your country have added to the cultural richness of mine. I hope that you will visit us again.
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Hi Brownie......I don't know about England....but in the whole of Europe we found a cafe almost every hundred yards.....but not a single brown or black or Japanese person sitting in it. Quite odd. In fact we four tried to eat in a cafe in France (near the Louvre)...and the manager said something in French...and something about his manner... that didn't seem welcoming. So we moved on.
Anyway, we had a great time!
Maybe he mistook you for a muslim. I think there is a lot of mistrust between the French state and its muslim community now.
Then there's always the old French chip on the shoulder about language - I've seen it before in Paris, not so much in rural France, that public facing people can be quite rude to English speaking tourists, affecting incomprehension to cause embarrassment to people who can't or won't speak their language.
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Interesting about smoking - I wasn't aware India had banned it so extensively - mind you it is now many years since I visited. 1992 was the last time!
Brownie, is largely correct though. In England compared to say France and certainly Germany we take a much more strict approach to the issue of smoking. But even in Germany I noticed on my visit in August that they have also tightened up on the issue.
Sorry to hear about your issue with café culture - we found no such problem with it in the part of Germany we were in this summer (Koblenz, Boppard, Rhine) my partner is Indian, although as he points out from time to time there is Indian and then there is Indian, Indian. He is very good at spotting people who are from the sub-continent now, rather than being descendants of peoples from the sub-continent. Its in the way you dress apparently. Maybe others pick up on that as well - I'm not saying its an excuse for any standoffishness just an explanation for our differing experiences.
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In France smoking has always been deeply embedded culturally so maybe you see more of it there. Not in restaurants though, surely. When I visited France and Belgium not that long ago, all hotel rooms were officially non-smoking - but there were ashtrays in every one ;D.
Smoking is much, much less common than it used to be. When I first visited France, 50 years ago, my abiding memory od Paris was the universal lingering smell of Gitaines. That has now long gone. Over the last 20 years the number of fields devoted to tobacco has dwindled to almost none. The number of public smokers is still greater than you will find in England, but even that is much reduced.
I'm pleased to know that public smoking is banned in India.
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As is obvious I am very much an anti-smoker.
No one these days has any excuse for not knowing how damaging smoking can be for the health of the smoker and passive smokers. I believe a law has come into force banning smoking in car in which children are travelling. I think a law banning smoking in homes where there are children should be brought in too. I realise that would be hard to enforce, but it would be a step in the right direction, imo.
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Well...about smoking.... I think I saw quite a few people smoking in most of the places we visited including London. Maybe many of them were Chinese or other nationalities.....can't remember. In Germany and Italy in particular I remember the sidewalks were littered with cigarette butts. I smoked a few too.....after many years. ;)
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In fact we four tried to eat in a cafe in France (near the Louvre)...and the manager said something in French...and something about his manner... that didn't seem welcoming. So we moved on.
Parisian restaurant people are notorious for not being welcoming to people who make no effort to speak French. It may not have been your colour that was the problem. If you ever go back, you should do what I do: speak French to the best of your ability (which in my case is very poor) and the waiter will immediately switch to English and be as friendly as anything because you at least made the effort.
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Yeah...maybe we should have tried some of the 'Bonjour' thing. :D Maybe next time.
Come to think of it...my son was trying out some French and Italian words through the internet, before we started. Doesn't seem to have come in very useful though!! :(
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Coming back to 'destiny'......
I think life is pretty much predetermined, though our ego does not like to believe that. The ego wants to believe that it is in control and that it can independently decide the course of our individual lives and that of others.
Unfortunately for the ego....things never work out as it wants. As life unfolds....our mind keeps adjusting and adapting while all the time believing that things are in control. If we think back to what we wanted life to be ..say five years ago (let alone ten,fifteen,twenty years ago)...and what it is now...we will realize that we don't have much control.
My belief that some form of a Common Consciousness decides the course of life, is another matter altogether. I can't prove it but I am convinced that it is so.
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But since in that case your believe is pre determined, it isn't if much use.
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But since in that case your believe is pre determined, it isn't if much use.
And so is your response....! :D We just can't help being what we are. We can't be anything else.....given the circumstances in which we have been born and in which we have grown.
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Coming back to 'destiny'......
I think life is pretty much predetermined, though our ego does not like to believe that. The ego wants to believe that it is in control and that it can independently decide the course of our individual lives and that of others.
Unfortunately for the ego....things never work out as it wants. As life unfolds....our mind keeps adjusting and adapting while all the time believing that things are in control. If we think back to what we wanted life to be ..say five years ago (let alone ten,fifteen,twenty years ago)...and what it is now...we will realize that we don't have much control.
My belief that some form of a Common Consciousness decides the course of life, is another matter altogether. I can't prove it but I am convinced that it is so.
First two paras are right on the money. The nature of self I think is all about an illusion of autonomy and control in which we are empowered, feeling purposeful and decisive when in reality we are merely reacting to external change.
Para 3 I think is an unjustified leap into fantasyland. Invoking some 'other', vague, or mystical notions to explain stuff loses sight of the actual evidence that we already have to hand and can work with. We have the laws of nature describing how things interact at all levels, and this understanding has been hard won, I don't see the virtue in ignoring it in favour of some woolly mystical notion.
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First two paras are right on the money. The nature of self I think is all about an illusion of autonomy and control in which we are empowered, feeling purposeful and decisive when in reality we are merely reacting to external change.
Para 3 I think is an unjustified leap into fantasyland. Invoking some 'other', vague, or mystical notions to explain stuff loses sight of the actual evidence that we already have to hand and can work with. We have the laws of nature describing how things interact at all levels, and this understanding has been hard won, I don't see the virtue in ignoring it in favour of some woolly mystical notion.
What has it got to do with the laws of physics? I am certainly not denying these laws. I am talking about something beyond that.
You don't KNOW that there is no Common Consciousness....you only believe that there is no such thing, whereas I believe in it.
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What has it got to do with the laws of physics? I am certainly not denying these laws. I am talking about something beyond that.
You don't KNOW that there is no Common Consciousness....you only believe that there is no such thing, whereas I believe in it.
We don't KNOW there is no magic pixie called Kevin secretly pulling all the strings. That's the problem with magic beliefs, anything goes.
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We don't KNOW there is no magic pixie called Kevin secretly pulling all the strings. That's the problem with magic beliefs, anything goes.
A common consciousness is not quite the same as Kevin the magic pixie!! ;) Its not a belief in magic or something supernatural.
Goodnight!
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We don't KNOW there is no magic pixie called Kevin secretly pulling all the strings. That's the problem with magic beliefs, anything goes.
I thought Kevin was a leprechaun.
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I thought Kevin was a leprechaun.
he is both pixie and leprechaun, and indeed a boggart as well. Three in one!
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What is your definition of:
(a) pre-determination
(b) destiny
My death is pre-determined, i,e. that it will happen but the actual cause and date are not pre-determined.
You were asked to show HH an atheist who believes in pre-determination. You think 'many' atheists on this board believe in destiny? Name them!! Or did you accidentally on purpose confuse that term with pre-determination, or your version of it?
Maybe it's the atheists destiny to sort out these destiny headed dreamers and deluded faith heads.
S D, I'll bet you hadn't thought of that. (Looks like it's my destiny to sort out the atheists too now).
ippy
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I thought Kevin was a leprechaun.
Well yes and no. He/she/it is a protean which is why he/she/it is all things, and more.....in fact anything you what he/she/it to be.....no proof required.
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Maybe it's the atheists destiny to sort out these destiny headed dreamers and deluded faith heads.
Sorting them out? By tracking them down to the beach and then arresting them?
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Sorting them out? By tracking them down to the beach and then arresting them?
Hi there Vlad I notice you don't seem to have a grip on the meaning of atheist and then when you add to that you can't get your head around what secularism actually stands for, it looks like you're not doing very well lately.
I notice the stupid berkini ban has been overturned, what did atheism have to do with any of that lot Vlad?
ippy
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No such thing as destiny; ... .
For once, I agree with torridon. ;) At least, not in any spiritual sense. On the other hand, I think that genetics can provide some degree of 'destiny' - if one has a genetic condition, it is likely that any natural children you have might will inherit it and the 'destiny' associated with that.
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For once, I agree with torridon. ;) At least, not in any spiritual sense. On the other hand, I think that genetics can provide some degree of 'destiny' - if one has a genetic condition, it is likely that any natural children you have might will inherit it and the 'destiny' associated with that.
I trust you realise, Hope, that you are providing a golden opportunity for Sriram to start on epigenetics again ....
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For once, I agree with torridon. ;) At least, not in any spiritual sense. On the other hand, I think that genetics can provide some degree of 'destiny' - if one has a genetic condition, it is likely that any natural children you have might will inherit it and the 'destiny' associated with that.
I agree destiny is a bit dicey...especially if you are religious and believe in God, free will, right and wrong, reward & punishment etc.
Scientists find it easier to believe in predetermination because everything to them is just laws of physics. Life works like a machine... on and on. No external intervention. Once the ball gets rolling it goes on in accordance with the laws.
I believe in karma, reincarnation and spiritual development. I believe that the physical is only a product of the spiritual. How this fits in with destiny is a bit difficult to put together.
Karma itself is destiny in a sense...and what HH talks of epigenetics is also valid here. Everything has an effect, a reaction and a consequence. This is destiny.
I believe life is like a VR computer game. Everything in the game is fixed....but you can still win or lose. As you keep doing the right things you keep progressing to higher and more complex aspects of the game.....rules become tighter and more intricate. If you lose you keep repeating the game.
This idea has room for destiny, freewill, karma, equality, individual development and progression....and also a smart game designer.
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I agree destiny is a bit dicey...especially if you are religious and believe in God, free will, right and wrong, reward & punishment etc.
Scientists find it easier to believe in predetermination because everything to them is just laws of physics. Life works like a machine... on and on. No external intervention. Once the ball gets rolling it goes on in accordance with the laws.
I believe in karma, reincarnation and spiritual development. I believe that the physical is only a product of the spiritual. How this fits in with destiny is a bit difficult to put together.
Karma itself is destiny in a sense...and what HH talks of epigenetics is also valid here. Everything has an effect, a reaction and a consequence. This is destiny.
I believe life is like a VR computer game. Everything in the game is fixed....but you can still win or lose. As you keep doing the right things you keep progressing to higher and more complex aspects of the game.....rules become tighter and more intricate. If you lose you keep repeating the game.
This idea has room for destiny, freewill, karma, equality, individual development and progression....and also a smart game designer.
Misleading to say 'scientists believe in predetermination'. Scientists observe and report. Beliefs, on the other hand, are essentially personal indulgences, habits of mind
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Somewhat pedantic....but ok...I agree.
But having said that....there is significant belief involved in moving from mathematical scientific theories and models.... to accepting them as fact and reality.
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Somewhat pedantic....but ok...I agree.
But having said that....there is significant belief involved in moving from mathematical scientific theories and models.... to accepting them as fact and reality.
That process involves testing of the theory by experiment and further observation. Not really belief.