Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: ippy on August 20, 2016, 11:36:36 AM
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I found this article included within the NSS's weekly Newsline:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2016/08/governors-perspective--beware-an-increasingly-assertive-religious-ethos-in-church-schools
I thought it might be of general interest and appropriately presented on the Christian Topic section.
ippy
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I found this article included within the NSS's weekly Newsline:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2016/08/governors-perspective--beware-an-increasingly-assertive-religious-ethos-in-church-schools
I thought it might be of general interest and appropriately presented on the Christian Topic section.
ippy
As I have indicated on many occasions I am against state funded faith schools.
But this is an even more urgent and extreme issue. Even if you still allow state funded faith schools, surely parents must have a reasonable choice not to send their kids to a faith school. If there is just one school in a village and it is a faith school (as is often the case for historical reasons) then parents do not have that choice, as bussing their kids - usually this is primary school age - to another town, perhaps miles away isn't a reasonable option.
Where there is only one school in an area, and therefore no choice for parents, that school must be non faith.
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I confess it slightly troubles me that with all the problems in secular society and education in particular there is a monomaniacal interest in basing a more perfect society about circumscribing particular people's efforts.
In secular Britain people Keep returning the party at prayer but obviously some of those want to get rid of any social involvement in social activity.
How is the atheist university doing? A model of a free market educational establishment no doubt.
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What might an "atheist" university be?
Most universities in the UK are secular institutions anyway. They do not formally support a religious viewpoint but may allow representatives of various faiths to act as unsupported chaplains to those wishing to avail themselves of their services - but have no official status and no premises on campus.
And where there is a Department of Religious Studies there will be no proselytising members of staff - there may even be atheist lecturers in the department.
I worked at a new university which had developed from a CofE teacher training college. There were bishops on the governing body, but there was no place of worship anywhere in the university premises. And the majority of students had no conception of the university's ecclesiastical connection.
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What might an "atheist" university be?
If I understand the phrase correctly, its the university that Dawkins proposed setting up some years ago. Don't think it ever got off the ground.
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As I have indicated on many occasions I am against state funded faith schools.
But this is an even more urgent and extreme issue. Even if you still allow state funded faith schools, surely parents must have a reasonable choice not to send their kids to a faith school. If there is just one school in a village and it is a faith school (as is often the case for historical reasons) then parents do not have that choice, as bussing their kids - usually this is primary school age - to another town, perhaps miles away isn't a reasonable option.
Where there is only one school in an area, and therefore no choice for parents, that school must be non faith.
This contention that faith schools take a percentage of children from other faiths or none isn't good enough; all schools should be non-faith as a matter of course anyway, so that we all mix from the youngest of ages.
ippy
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This contention that faith schools take a percentage of children from other faiths or none isn't good enough; all schools should be non-faith as a matter of course anyway, so that we all mix from the youngest of ages.
ippy
What about the children of the rich I doubt you are suggesting the end of private education and therefore strike me as specially pleading your peculiar hobbyhorse.
Surely C of E schools get the thumbs up from the majority of agnostic parents, don't they.
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You're right there Vlad, as do Catholic state schools. I never cease to be amazed at the contortions some parents perform in order to secure a place for their child at one of these schools. In fairness, the schools don't ram home religion in the way they did in days gone by, that time has passed - but seriously, are the state faith schools any better on the whole than non-faith schools?
Private faith schools are a different matter, the Catholic and Anglican ones have always taken a high proportion of children from other faiths, they are more concerned with academic results and in a position to pick and choose whom they will let in. Jewish and Islamic private schools stick to their own.
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This contention that faith schools take a percentage of children from other faiths or none isn't good enough; ...
OK, ippy, why is it a 'contention'?
... all schools should be non-faith as a matter of course anyway, so that we all mix from the youngest of ages.
I can think of several young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school, so I'm not sure that your argument is watertight, ippy.
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OK, ippy, why is it a 'contention'?
I can think of several young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school, so I'm not sure that your argument is watertight, ippy.
Contention as per the O E U shorter version 'Contention'; ever heard of sarcasm Hope?
I'm pleased to hear that: "young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school", it must be even better mixing at school in addition to after school.
I don't suppose these primitive regressive beliefs will be doing any kind of quick disappearing act in the near future , so in the mean time all we can do is to try and loosen their grip on their most coveted recruiting ground which fortunately seems to be happening here in the U K and in lots of the other more enlightened countries too.
We're having a modest success with bringing subsidised, free, bussing to an end, for children that have religious parents wanting their children to attend faith schools, the secularists are not going to stop nibbling away at religious privileges Hope.
ippy
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Ippy, I've nothing to add here, said what I think in my previous post, however both floo and I have asked you a question on the "Zionist" thread :D, so please hop over when you have the time.
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Contention as per the O E U shorter version 'Contention'; ever heard of sarcasm Hope?
The word has two, related meanings, ippy - a 'heated disagreement' and 'an assertion, especially one maintained in argument': i just wondere3d which meaning you were using.
I'm pleased to hear that: "young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school", it must be even better mixing at school in addition to after school.
The problem is that when one is within a large setting, such as a school, children will often associate with those who are like them - so that my experience is that the Pakistanis won't mix with the Indians or the Afro-Caribbean and few of any of those will mix with the indigenous kids. Obviously, there will be some cross-over, especially in the case of sporting and other team activities, but my experience is also that the peer-pressure doesn't exist to the same extent outside of school.
I don't suppose these primitive regressive beliefs will be doing any kind of quick disappearing act in the near future , so in the mean time all we can do is to try and loosen their grip on their most coveted recruiting ground which fortunately seems to be happening here in the U K and in lots of the other more enlightened countries too.
I'm not sure that 'primitive regressive' are appropriate adjectives for a set of beliefs that still have a lot to say to modern society, ippy - or are you suggesting that society is also 'primitive' and 'regressive'?
We're having a modest success with bringing subsidised, free, bussing to an end, for children that have religious parents wanting their children to attend faith schools, the secularists are not going to stop nibbling away at religious privileges Hope.
ippy
Have to say that I've lived in a number of Local Authority areas, and have to say that the only bussing I've known has been to local state-owned and state-run secondary schools.
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There was me thinking he meant clearing tables in the school cafeteria, without pay. Maybe in Lent?
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We're having a modest success with bringing subsidised, free, bussing to an end, for children that have religious parents wanting their children to attend faith schools, the secularists are not going to stop nibbling away at religious privileges Hope.
Wouldn't it be more positive to campaign for children that have non-religious parents to get the same rights as the ones with religious parents i.e. everybody gets a free bus to school?
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Surely C of E schools get the thumbs up from the majority of agnostic parents, don't they.
Evidence please - I think that's pretty unlikely - faith school (of which the majority are CofE) are usually given a thumbs down by about two thirds of parents when proper research studies the issue. And, of course, that one thirds in favour is likely to be heavily skewed towards adherents of the religions that run those faith schools then the likelihood that a majority of agnostic parents support CofE faith schools seems implausible.
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I can think of several young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school, so I'm not sure that your argument is watertight, ippy.
Sure there will be kids you socialise outside of schools in a broader manner than in school. But that isn't an argument for what is effectively 'social engineering' creating structures that act to divide kids into various religions and the rest.
But it is pretty difficult to argue against Ippy's basic point.
So to use an example - my kids go to a state non faith school - the intake largely matches the demographics of the local area, so the people they learn with are reflective of that community in all sorts of manners, including religion. So they know and socialise with loads of kids who are from non religious backgrounds, plus others who are active CofE, RCC (plus other christian denominations) and also muslim, sikh etc etc.
My sister in laws kids attend a catholic school with the intake overwhelmingly from the catholic 'community' of a large city. So even though perhaps only 10% of that city are catholic, perhaps 90% of the kids they socialise with at school are. Their school is largely devoid of other faiths, and certainly their impression (from what they see at school - and actually at home too) is that the world is largely catholic, with a scattering of non catholics.
It is pretty clear which schooling provides a broader opportunity to socialise, interact and learn about kids from all faiths and none - plus also to understand the proportions of those people within the broader community.
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What might an "atheist" university be?
Most universities in the UK are secular institutions anyway. They do not formally support a religious viewpoint but may allow representatives of various faiths to act as unsupported chaplains to those wishing to avail themselves of their services - but have no official status and no premises on campus.
And where there is a Department of Religious Studies there will be no proselytising members of staff - there may even be atheist lecturers in the department.
I worked at a new university which had developed from a CofE teacher training college. There were bishops on the governing body, but there was no place of worship anywhere in the university premises. And the majority of students had no conception of the university's ecclesiastical connection.
When my daughter and a few friends started a Pagan Society at her University it took a threat from the University authorities (backed by the local court) of disbandment and legal action to stop the Catholic and the Christian Societies from destroying anything posted on the notice boards by the Pagan Society or actively harrassing anyone trying to attend Pagan meetings by any possible means including physical and verbal assaults.
It doesn't have to be a 'faith' school in order for it to house religious troglodites.
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When my daughter and a few friends started a Pagan Society at her University it took a threat from the University authorities (backed by the local court) of disbandment and legal action to stop the Catholic and the Christian Societies from destroying anything posted on the notice boards by the Pagan Society or actively harrassing anyone trying to attend Pagan meetings by any possible means including physical and verbal assaults.
It doesn't have to be a 'faith' school in order for it to house religious troglodites.
Oddly enough, Owlswing, when anything similar is aimed at Christian Unions/Societies, no university even bats an eyelid. Welcome to the 'persecuted' minority.
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Oddly enough, Owlswing, when anything similar is aimed at Christian Unions/Societies, no university even bats an eyelid. Welcome to the 'persecuted' minority.
can you show citations that this is always the case and no university does anything?
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Oddly enough, Owlswing, when anything similar is aimed at Christian Unions/Societies, no university even bats an eyelid. Welcome to the 'persecuted' minority.
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Provide specific cases please.
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Provide specific cases please.
I knoiw of several places of UK Higher and Further Education where posters for events run by the various Christian Unions/Groups both either defaced or torn down. Then there have been university Student Unions who have refused existing Christian groups affiliated to them the use of campus rooms under their control - on the grounds that the groups are only open to members and the meetings only open to said members (a rule that pretty well all student groups also apply), whereas CU and other Christian meetings are often open to the public, should they wish to attend. Then there have been Unions who have refused to allow a Christian Union/Group to affiliate in the first place. In pretty well all such cases, the relevant University authorities havee refused to become involved, arguing that the issue was a 'student' issue.
I would also be very surprised if any Christian group would object to an pagan grouping in the university. Perhaps you could provide us with a link to the story you originally gave.
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It is pretty clear which schooling provides a broader opportunity to socialise, interact and learn about kids from all faiths and none - plus also to understand the proportions of those people within the broader community.
I have taught at a number of bog-standard comprehensive schools with no ties to the local religious groups, and been saddened by the aversion shown by both indigenous and minority ethnic groups towards each other within the student body. I probably learnt more about 'other religions and cultures' by mixing with them outside of school than ever I saw being learnt in school.
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I knoiw of several places of UK Higher and Further Education where posters for events run by the various Christian Unions/Groups both either defaced or torn down.
Several - which ones please.
. . . various Christian Unions/Groups - which ones please.
Then there have been university Student Unions who have refused existing Christian groups affiliated to them the use of campus rooms under their control
Which ones?
Then there have been Unions who have refused to allow a Christian Union/Group to affiliate in the first place.
WHICH ONES!
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I would also be very surprised if any Christian group would object to an pagan grouping in the university. Perhaps you could provide us with a link to the story you originally gave.
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The link is my daughter and her friends experiences - observed by myself on some occasions.
Be surprised? You would because it would not fit in with your blinkered and biased view of the attitude of Christians to other groups!
One year (I can'tremember exactly which one - it was too long ago) some American evangelicals were invited by the Croydon churches to help them picket Witchfest. Half a dozen of them turned up to find that they were facing a queue of over a thousand Pagans and witches waiting in line for the doors to open,
This did not faze them and they gave it their all in condemnation of our beliefs and practices. Being November it was very cold and even these die-hard anti-witches were glad (shamefacedly) to accept the hot tea and coffee that was taken out to them by the organisers of Witchfest.
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I doubt Hope has even heard of Witchfest. I had to look it up. Not something that happens very often.
It's funny really that American evangelicals were called in to picket, a pretty pointless exercise I would have thought but shows how indifferent the British are that they need to import extremists from another country to make a point.
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I have taught at a number of bog-standard comprehensive schools with no ties to the local religious groups, and been saddened by the aversion shown by both indigenous and minority ethnic groups towards each other within the student body. I probably learnt more about 'other religions and cultures' by mixing with them outside of school than ever I saw being learnt in school.
Your use of the term 'bog standard comprehensive' demonstrates your prejudice on the matter. And yes there is factionalism in many schools, and that isn't restricted to just non faith schools by any means.
But if your argument is that if we put different religious/racial groups in one school there may be tensions so the best approach is to separate them out into separate schools so they don't interact - well that isn't the answer is it. The answer is of course to engender an ethos of respect and tolerance - which is the case in all the non faith schools I have had significant contact with (as parent and governor, plus my wife as teacher/deputy head) - but you cannot do that if the very nature of the school ethos means to place one religious group (and often by inference some racial groups) ahead of others. If your school says 'christian' on the door then if you aren't christian you are instantly on the back foot.
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I knoiw of several places of UK Higher and Further Education where posters for events run by the various Christian Unions/Groups both either defaced or torn down. Then there have been university Student Unions who have refused existing Christian groups affiliated to them the use of campus rooms under their control - on the grounds that the groups are only open to members and the meetings only open to said members (a rule that pretty well all student groups also apply), whereas CU and other Christian meetings are often open to the public, should they wish to attend. Then there have been Unions who have refused to allow a Christian Union/Group to affiliate in the first place. In pretty well all such cases, the relevant University authorities havee refused to become involved, arguing that the issue was a 'student' issue.
I would also be very surprised if any Christian group would object to an pagan grouping in the university. Perhaps you could provide us with a link to the story you originally gave.
You appear to have forgotten to provide the details, which is what was requested in the post you were replying to.
This just reads like another of your arguments by anecdote.
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That wasn't Hope's argument though, he was merely stating what he had observed, not suggesting any type of segregation in schools.
Indeed there is factionalism in some schools, not all by any means. A lot depends on exactly where the school is and reflects the sections of the population from which the children come (families especially).
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That wasn't Hope's argument though, he was merely stating what he had observed, not suggesting any type of segregation in schools.
I'm not entirely sure what Hope's arguments are.
However he has made 2 assertions (unevidenced of course) - so it isn't unreasonable to think that he see's them as linked.
So his first assertion is that fractionalise is in 'bog standard comprehensives' and in singling this category of schools out, then presumably he believes it isn't seen in faith schools (I disagree of course, but that seems to be his assertion. Secondly that the demographics of faith schools are narrow, but it doesn't matter because kids will socialise outside that narrow 'faith' demographic outside school.
Putting those two together it isn't unreasonable to assume that he thinks that faith schools don't have factionalism because they act to segregate those factions - in other words you won't get the christian kids against the muslim kids because there aren't any muslim kids (or so few as to make it impossible for them to be seen as a group or faction) in the christian faith school. So in effect that we should prevent factionalism by segregating kids into different schools on the basis of which 'faction' they belong to.
Now I disagree with that view massively both on principle and also on practicalities.
Indeed there is factionalism in some schools, not all by any means. A lot depends on exactly where the school is and reflects the sections of the population from which the children come (families especially).
Agreed - and that has nothing to do with whether the school is a faith or non faith school.
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Several - which ones please.
. . . various Christian Unions/Groups - which ones please.
Which ones?
WHICH ONES!
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I would also be very surprised if any Christian group would object to an pagan grouping in the university. Perhaps you could provide us with a link to the story you originally gave.
The link is my daughter and her friends experiences - observed by myself on some occasions.
Be surprised? You would because it would not fit in with your blinkered and biased view of the attitude of Christians to other groups!
One year (I can'tremember exactly which one - it was too long ago) some American evangelicals were invited by the Croydon churches to help them picket Witchfest. Half a dozen of them turned up to find that they were facing a queue of over a thousand Pagans and witches waiting in line for the doors to open,
This did not faze them and they gave it their all in condemnation of our beliefs and practices. Being November it was very cold and even these die-hard anti-witches were glad (shamefacedly) to accept the hot tea and coffee that was taken out to them by the organisers of Witchfest.
As you will appreciate, anecdotal evidence isn't accepted here, Owl. Perhaps you can provide proper links to material that supports your claim. Only then will I look to do the same for mine - and that won't be till after the weekend as I'm away till then.
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So his first assertion is that fractionalise is in 'bog standard comprehensives' and in singling this category of schools out, then presumably he believes it isn't seen in faith schools (I disagree of course, but that seems to be his assertion. Secondly that the demographics of faith schools are narrow, but it doesn't matter because kids will socialise outside that narrow 'faith' demographic outside school.
An interesting analysis, PD, but also a false one. My point was that over the years, I have taught in 'bog standard' ('ordinary or basic') state schools (in other words, schools that aren't filled with high-achievers or non-achievers). Many have been multi-ethnic in make-up ( in fact two have had many more non-Caucasian pupils on role than Caucasian). For all the schools' efforts to integrate the mix of nationalities and cultural backgrounds, that has often only really occurred at the level of the composition of the classes - rather than more deeply. Rather than trying to make the contrast between state and faith-based schools that you seem to want me to be making, I was simply expressing the single point that an 'imposition' of cross-cultural thinking similar to that which is seen in schools - be that faith-based or not - often doesn't work.
Putting those two together it isn't unreasonable to assume that he thinks that faith schools don't have factionalism because they act to segregate those factions - in other words you won't get the christian kids against the muslim kids because there aren't any muslim kids (or so few as to make it impossible for them to be seen as a group or faction) in the christian faith school. So in effect that we should prevent factionalism by segregating kids into different schools on the basis of which 'faction' they belong to.
Thanks for putting words and ideas into my mouth that I have been trying to fight for the last 45-odd years.
Now I disagree with that view massively both on principle and also on practicalities.
Your passionate attempt to put those ideas into my mouth would seem to suggest otherwise, PD.
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My point was that over the years, I have taught in 'bog standard' ('ordinary or basic') state schools (in other words, schools that aren't filled with high-achievers or non-achievers).
I think you are being a touch disingenuous.
Your original post talked about 'bog-standard comprehensive schools with no ties to the local religious groups' (my emphasis). So you were very clearly restricting your criticism to non faith schools - if not why on earth would it be relevant to tell us that they didn't have ties to religious groups. And given the nature of this thread (and this is on the Christian Topic) then the discussion is necessarily linked to faith schools.
And previously you had asserted that it didn't matter if faith schools were very narrow in their demographics (race/religion) as kids socialised with all sorts of people outside school. By the way I don't think this is true in many cases.
So it isn't unreasonable to put together your various assertions in the manner I did.
Nonetheless, lets see whether you are able to agree with the following points:
1. That factionalism (racial/religious) does occur in some schools (but certainly not all) and is found in faith schools as well as non faith.
2. That there are plenty of schools with very mixed intakes (in terms of religion or lack thereof and race) where there are no problems with factionalism along those grounds.
3. That if there is a problem with factionalism the answer is not to 'segregate' those factions (religious groups/racial groups) into different schools.
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Rather than trying to make the contrast between state and faith-based schools ...
The faith schools we are talking about are state schools - again you seem to be unable to understand the distinctions.
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I was simply expressing the single point that an 'imposition' of cross-cultural thinking similar to that which is seen in schools - be that faith-based or not - often doesn't work.
And in many, many cases (including the schools I have extensive knowledge of which are all non faith community schools, i.e. 'bog standard' in your view, albeit now forced to academise) it works very well, thank you very much. And it isn't imposed - kids (particular at the youngest ages) see no cultural or religious distinctions - they simply see other kids and will get along (or not) regardless of race or religion. Stigmatising others on the basis of race/religion/sexuality etc is learned behaviour sadly.
I struggle to see how an overarching ethos in a school of fundamental respect and tolerance (and practicing what you preach) can be seen as 'imposing' anything.
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The faith schools we are talking about are state schools - again you seem to be unable to understand the distinctions.
I do understand the difference - that was a mistake that I noticed having posted the post, but as I closed the browser before leaving home earlier.
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I think you are being a touch disingenuous.
Your original post talked about 'bog-standard comprehensive schools with no ties to the local religious groups' (my emphasis). So you were very clearly restricting your criticism to non faith schools - if not why on earth would it be relevant to tell us that they didn't have ties to religious groups. And given the nature of this thread (and this is on the Christian Topic) then the discussion is necessarily linked to faith schools.
Sorry, PD, next time I won't try to use the same categorisations you use in such debates, as it seems you don't understand your own. There are faith-based schools; there are 'church' state schools and there are 'secular' state schools. I notice that no-one here seems to have used the 2nd of these three definitions in this thread.
And previously you had asserted that it didn't matter if faith schools were very narrow in their demographics (race/religion) as kids socialised with all sorts of people outside school. By the way I don't think this is true in many cases.
Again, I said no such thing. Rather, I said that the mixing of cultures and races in a school, doesn't always work as smoothly and effectively as some would have us believe - or at least, not in my experience as a teacher.
So it isn't unreasonable to put together your various assertions in the manner I did.
Had I made those assertions in the first place, of course.
1. That factionalism (racial/religious) does occur in some schools (but certainly not all) and is found in faith schools as well as non faith.
2. That there are plenty of schools with very mixed intakes (in terms of religion or lack thereof and race) where there are no problems with factionalism along those grounds.
3. That if there is a problem with factionalism the answer is not to 'segregate' those factions (religious groups/racial groups) into different schools.
You have summed up what I have argued for over a number of months and threads - but possibly more succinctly.
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Sorry, PD, next time I won't try to use the same categorisations you use in such debates, as it seems you don't understand your own. There are faith-based schools; there are 'church' state schools and there are 'secular' state schools. I notice that no-one here seems to have used the 2nd of these three definitions in this thread.
I'm using standard terminology accepted throughout the country from the Department of Education onward.
We are of course only really talking about state schools here (or the correct term - maintained schools) - if that is he case I do not understand your distinction between 'faith-based schools' and 'church state schools' - they are one and the same - albeit the latter is a subset of the former as there are a tiny number of non christian faith schools.
The accepted term is faith school and this encompasses any state school (maintained school) which is defined as having a specific religious ethos, and in nearly all cases has formal involvement of a faith organisation in its running. In the past most of these were either 'voluntary aided' or voluntary controlled' depending on their specific governance arrangements. Recently, of course, many have become academies and indeed in due course it is likely that all will be required to. However they will remain faith schools.
Now I recognise you are from Wales, and I am talking about the situation in England - but aside from the academisation drive the situation is similar in each country.
See here:
https://www.gov.uk/types-of-school/overview
Note last updated today - so bang up to date. You will note that the terms I use are there - the terms you use, including 'faith-based schools', 'church state schools' and 'bog standard comprehensive' aren't mentioned at all in the official nomenclature of state school types.
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I do understand the difference - that was a mistake that I noticed having posted the post, but as I closed the browser before leaving home earlier.
Yet later you are still talking about:
'Faith-based schools' and 'church-state schools' - please explain how those are 2 distinct groups of state school.