Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: floo on September 14, 2016, 10:51:41 AM
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Agree the end has been nigh for a long time so I take no notice of it. The idea for Christians (who are Christ's disciples) is that we should always be prepared in the sense of doing our best and then not worry about it but, certainly, there are those who constantly feel Armageddon is imminent and see all sorts of signs. I'm not one of them! There have always been 'signs'. Makes for good literature with TV mini-series spin offs.
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Do you remember the 'Left Behind' books? I never read any of them but years ago, when you and I posted on some now defunct forums, the young posters enthused about them. I wonder what they think now (would love to know how they are all getting on, they were such fun).
Tim LaHaye, who wrote the series, died recently.
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The end has been nigh for a very long time. I remember the sandwich board men strutting their stuff with this message when I was a kid in the 50s. Whenever there is a national or world crisis the end times merchants get very excited, proclaiming the problems we are experiencing are predicted, although you have to have a very vivid imagination to interpret the Biblical verses they are suggesting refer to whichever crisis we are living through! Remember Harold Campion, who predicted the end of the world erroneously on at least three occasions, and still had the gullible believing him?
Jesus suggested the end times would happen in the lifetime of his disciples. If he couldn't get it right who could?
I think the end timers get a real kick out of scaring people with their nonsense.
It looks like this thread has died a death. Let's see if we can breathe a bit of life into it.
Where did Jesus suggest the end times would happen in the lifetime of his disciples, Floo?
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It looks like this thread has died a death. Let's see if we can breathe a bit of life into it.
Where did Jesus suggest the end times would happen in the lifetime of his disciples, Floo?
I suspect that she is referring to Matt 24:34.
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I suspect that she is referring to Matt 24:34.
And:
[27]" For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.
[28] Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Matt 16
Also
[63] But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
[64] Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Matt 27
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And:
[27]" For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.
[28] Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Matt 16
Also
[63] But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
[64] Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Matt 27
Of course we all seem to ignore the statement made by Jesus...No one knows the day or the hour...not even the son of man only the father who is in Heaven.
Jesus spelt out a way of life that fitted every generation since and the Judgment that was served at the end of everyones life since is delivered by whether we were reborn in the flesh as Jesus was, except, that we are reborn to new vessels, in a new generation. This is what Jesus meant when he snatched the keys of life and death out of the hands of Satan. No one needed to fear death anymore beccause Jesus had made it obsolete...except, of course, those that refuse to upbuild within themselves a righteous spirit, modelled on our saviour.
This is the last age...even though we can't be 100%, all the Biblical signs are pointing us in that direction. Now...the low morals, the contempt for righteousness, the vile things happening worldwide, the cooling off from righteous good order are all telling me that that period when all who ever livd are being brought back to the flesh for the Great Judgment is happening now.
Just because you have no knowledge of your previous life doesn't mean it isn't happening. YouTube events tell us that the memory doesn't linger into adulthood...but its time to realise that by ignoring righteousness...which is being nice to our neighbours and following Jesus accurately...we are being particularly spiteful and selfish to ourselves.
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The end has been nigh for a very long time.
Has it? What's 2000 years in 4.5 billion? According to my computer calulator its something like 5 x 10-5%. (I think that was the correct number of decimal points.)
Jesus suggested the end times would happen in the lifetime of his disciples.
But he also says that only the Father knows the timing and the original Greek of the passage you paraphrase is, apparently, not as definitive as it appears in some English translations - and your very use of 'suggested' indicates that you realise that.
I think the end timers get a real kick out of scaring people with their nonsense.
I'd agree that anyone - such as the JWs and the odd off the wall Christian sects - who seek to predict the end-times are as barmy as a scientist who tries to predict the point in time that the earth will become uninhabitable - either as a result of our sun exploding or its cooling down.
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And:
[27]" For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.
[28] Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Matt 16
And that is meant to provide a definitive timing for the end times, DU?
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I reckon if Christianity is still being practised 2000 years hence some will still be predicting the end times are imminent. Of course one day our world will end through natural processes, nothing to do with any god.
Unless, of course, said god is the moving opower behind the universe ;)
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“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” quoted in Matthew, Mark and Luke I believe.
And why do you think that refers to his second coming rather than the fall of Jerusalem (AD 70)?
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WELLL You've seen what happens with that game Chinese Whispers & that's in just minutes !!!
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And why do you think that refers to his second coming rather than the fall of Jerusalem (AD 70)?
Because that is what the text makes clear ?
Matt 24 is a direct response to a direct question - "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your [second] coming and of the end of the age"
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Well floo I've done what you said in your opening post and repented - nothing happens, so then I have to repent again the next day. Should I continue in the same vein?
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Thank you :).
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Of course we all seem to ignore the statement made by Jesus...No one knows the day or the hour...not even the son of man only the father who is in Heaven.
Well, since you seem to have some vested interest in believing what Jesus is supposed to have said, I need to point out to you again that it is clear that he claimed to know the extent of the period available (several decades), whilst not knowing the day or the hour. And yes, I know all your nonsense about people being resurrected to see the last judgment etc. That's been just one way for many religious sects to get round the inconvenience of what the texts actually say.
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And that is meant to provide a definitive timing for the end times, DU?
As Floo says, no one can be certain of what Jesus said about anything. However, it seems that you like to think that the whole lot recorded must have some true significance, provided you interpret it correctly. That however is your problem. Since I don't believe the scriptures contain any prophetic truth on these matters, I don't consider it a problem of mine.
This subject has been pretty much done to death here before, but the texts quoted make it pretty plain that Jesus' synoptic journalists believed that the End was not far away: Jesus tells a group that some of them will still be alive to see it (are they still alive now, perchance?); he tells the High Priest that he himself will see it (ah! but he can be resurrected can't he? :) ) and he says the present generation he is speaking to will not pass away until all the 'signs' occur (but there we've got to provide a different translation for 'generation' haven't we - that will help make the problem go away). Furthermore, we have Paul saying exactly the same thing in his early epistle to the Thessalonians, and even in his last, to the Romans - so the idea was obviously deeply ingrained in the teaching of the early Christians.
The unthinkable thing for believers is that Jesus might have been wrong, and that would never do - hence the devious exegeses, eisegeses, twisting, turning, extrapolating out of context, and a decidedly embarrassing reluctance to apply Occam's Razor.
Nevermind, nearly two thousand years on, I'm sure you're quite happy to be one of those wise virgins who kept enough oil for their lamps....
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Most people assume it was to do with the second coming. However, we have no idea if what Jesus is quoted as saying was actually said by him at all. No one apparently was writing down what Jesus said when he was alive, and tape recorders hadn't been invented, so it would be hard for anyone to remember word for word exactly what was said. How many of us could quote accurately a conversation we had last week, let alone remember it years later.
Actually, there is a fairly good chance that what is reported is what was said, Floo. For one thing, there were sufficient eye-witnesses around at the birth of the church to have been able to ensure the correctness; secondly, whilst it is true that stuff wasn't written down for between 20 and 40 years, there was a church that taught what had been said (and there may even have been a written record that the synoptic gospel writers based their material on to some extent or other - several scholars have suggested this over the years). Unlike the victors in a war, the church were 'all powerless' for the first 300-odd years of its existence and since all the 'Lost Christianities' that folk like Bart Ehrman love so much, date to the 2nd and subsequent centuries, I think we can be pretty confident that the really early church was the real thing.
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Well, since you seem to have some vested interest in believing what Jesus is supposed to have said, I need to point out to you again that it is clear that he claimed to know the extent of the period available (several decades), whilst not knowing the day or the hour. And yes, I know all your nonsense about people being resurrected to see the last judgment etc. That's been just one way for many religious sects to get round the inconvenience of what the texts actually say.
DU, whilst many believe(d) that he was referring to the 2nd Coming, most of the passages in which he talks about this event run in parallel with references to the destruction of the Temple. It is interesting that this second event did occur within decades, suggesting that this interpretation does have mileage. It is also worth remembering that he pointed out that a 1000 years is but a mere blip in God's 'economy', so that reference to decades could be to God's timings not humans'.
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We have been in the last days since the time of Christ.
You need to study the seasons and the feasts to understand where we are.
So the end is nigh for all in each century for that is the last chance now to know Christ and be saved.
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We have been in the last days since the time of Christ.
You need to study the seasons and the feasts to understand where we are.
So the end is nigh for all in each century for that is the last chance now to know Christ and be saved.
Are translations available?
Really. This is the kind of gibberish that the writers of Dr Who invoke when they are trying to get out of time paradoxes they have previously created.
Cue for: Accusations of taking this out of context, not understanding the Lord or the Bible, etc. Blah.
It might do for a TV scifi series. It's of no use here.
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Are translations available?
Really. This is the kind of gibberish that the writers of Dr Who invoke when they are trying to get out of time paradoxes they have previously created.
Cue for: Accusations of taking this out of context, not understanding the Lord or the Bible, etc. Blah.
It might do for a TV scifi series. It's of no use here.
Your ignorance is deafening but you admitting you haven't a clue is all that is required.
Excuses we have all heard before the excuses of man without the knowledge to answer the post he is referring to.
Commenting on / insulting the person whilst you acknowledge you have no understanding of what has been said.
When in reality all you have done is let everyone know you are ignorant on the subject of the last times and the teachings of the bible.
Why come out with all that rubbish and why pretend it actually does anything for you intellectually?
When everyone who knows anything about the last times and the seasons/feast of the bible knows the connection?
Why not admit you are ignorant of these events and study rather than insult someone out of your ignorance.
Seems you just shot yourself in the foot but are numb to the fact.
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Your ignorance is deafening but you admitting you haven't a clue is all that is required.
Excuses we have all heard before the excuses of man without the knowledge to answer the post he is referring to.
Commenting on / insulting the person whilst you acknowledge you have no understanding of what has been said.
When in reality all you have done is let everyone know you are ignorant on the subject of the last times and the teachings of the bible.
Why come out with all that rubbish and why pretend it actually does anything for you intellectually?
When everyone who knows anything about the last times and the seasons/feast of the bible knows the connection?
Why not admit you are ignorant of these events and study rather than insult someone out of your ignorance.
Seems you just shot yourself in the foot but are numb to the fact.
I didn't insult you Sassy - I said you had written gibberish on a par with that found in Dr Who. A lot of people I know would take that as a compliment.
But I would ask you to look at your last sentence again as it makes no sense: So the end is nigh for all in each century for that is the last chance now to know Christ and be saved.
I can't comment constructively on something that is incoherent. What I can do is point out to you that it is incoherent. No insult - just trying to help you out old gal.
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Point of information: The Doctor Who gibberish is of a very high standard, wheras.......er..... Hi. TV!
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DU, whilst many believe(d) that he was referring to the 2nd Coming, most of the passages in which he talks about this event run in parallel with references to the destruction of the Temple. It is interesting that this second event did occur within decades, suggesting that this interpretation does have mileage. It is also worth remembering that he pointed out that a 1000 years is but a mere blip in God's 'economy', so that reference to decades could be to God's timings not humans'.
This is such bullshit, I'm surprised you are not embarrassed by writing it.
You sound like a little child who has been caught out lying trying to justify themselves. "Yes, when I said "decade" I secretly meant 10,000 years".
Jesus was talking to people, human beings, not God. If he was giving them time scales that have a particular meaning to human beings, he was either using those terms in the way the humans expected or he was being incredibly stupid. If you want to get an idea across, you don't invent your own language to do it.
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The end has been nigh for a very long time. I remember the sandwich board men strutting their stuff with this message when I was a kid in the 50s. Whenever there is a national or world crisis the end times merchants get very excited, proclaiming the problems we are experiencing are predicted, although you have to have a very vivid imagination to interpret the Biblical verses they are suggesting refer to whichever crisis we are living through! Remember Harold Campion, who predicted the end of the world erroneously on at least three occasions, and still had the gullible believing him?
Jesus suggested the end times would happen in the lifetime of his disciples. If he couldn't get it right who could?
I think the end timers get a real kick out of scaring people with their nonsense.
Floo, would you prefer it if the end really was nigh? :P
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This is such bullshit, I'm surprised you are not embarrassed by writing it.
You sound like a little child who has been caught out lying trying to justify themselves. "Yes, when I said "decade" I secretly meant 10,000 years".
Jesus was talking to people, human beings, not God. If he was giving them time scales that have a particular meaning to human beings, he was either using those terms in the way the humans expected or he was being incredibly stupid. If you want to get an idea across, you don't invent your own language to do it.
Well said
Jesus was talking to humans using human terms, knowing full well just how humans reckon time. In the context of what Jesus was saying, there's no way that "soon" can be construed as having any other meaning.
Are we to look at everything Jesus said for hidden meanings?
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Well said
Jesus was talking to humans using human terms, knowing full well just how humans reckon time. In the context of what Jesus was saying, there's no way that "soon" can be construed as having any other meaning.
Are we to look at everything Jesus said for hidden meanings?
Actually, God was talking through Jesus to human beings. There is no dispute about Christ saying that his return date is known only to God. But the signs of his return can be known to everyone. Jesus gave no hidden meaning.
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More assertions, no evidence!
She's learnt well from you, Floo!!
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Well said
Jesus was talking to humans using human terms, knowing full well just how humans reckon time. In the context of what Jesus was saying, there's no way that "soon" can be construed as having any other meaning.
Are we to look at everything Jesus said for hidden meanings?
Luke 21:24 says,
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Verse 32 says "“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
How long do the "times of the Gentiles" last? Are they included in the "these things" that would take place before that generation passed?
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That is putting a spin on it that I bet was not intended, even if Jesus did make that quote.
Fine, I'll rephrase the question. What did Jesus mean by the times of the Gentiles? Was it a long or short time period? (I think that's a valid question)
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Goodness knows what the guy meant, even if he was correctly quoted, which is open to doubt.
He's talking about the time during which Israel as a nation was ruled by Gentile powers, beginning with the Babylonians, then the Persians, Greeks and Romans. After AD 70, Israel ceased to exist as a nation, the Jews being scattered worldwide (but retaining a form of religion). So at that point the 'times of the Gentiles' were completed, or as Jesus said, fulfilled.
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You think that is what Jesus was talking about, but it could be the words were put into his mouth by the gospel writers. Nothing was apparently written down when he was alive, so it was virtually impossible for them to quote him word for word years later.
That kind of kills the thread though, because your op assumes that he said everything as it is written in our new testament.
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Actually, God was talking through Jesus to human beings. There is no dispute about Christ saying that his return date is known only to God. But the signs of his return can be known to everyone. Jesus gave no hidden meaning.
All you need to do is to take note of the letters on the cross.
INRI
It's an abbreviation of "I'm not returning immediately".
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For how many years now have Christians been saying 'He is coming- He is coming' ?!?!!?
EH?????????????????
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That kind of kills the thread though, because your op assumes that he said everything as it is written in our new testament.
It is of course helpful if one has worked out a few criteria as to what Jesus is more likely to have said among the numerous quotes attributed to him. However, if the fundamentalists insist that Jesus did say such and such, I don't think one should therefore accept what such believers think these sayings mean. If one can find a whole batch of sayings in the NT which appear to be saying the same thing, and there is an easy explanation for this apparent consistency, then maybe that easy explanation is the correct one - even if it demonstrates that those early believers and Jesus himself were wholly mistaken.
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He's talking about the time during which Israel as a nation was ruled by Gentile powers, beginning with the Babylonians, then the Persians, Greeks and Romans. After AD 70, Israel ceased to exist as a nation, the Jews being scattered worldwide (but retaining a form of religion). So at that point the 'times of the Gentiles' were completed, or as Jesus said, fulfilled.
Isn't all this transposed across by Luke from the Book of Daniel, and put into Jesus' mouth as if he actually said it?
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Isn't all this transposed across by Luke from the Book of Daniel, and put into Jesus' mouth as if he actually said it?
It definitely seems to originate in Daniel, possibly 7:17-18. After the four Gentile kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) comes the everlasting kingdom possessed by the saints.
Interestingly, in John's vision in Revelation 20, the saints are seen reigning with Christ for a thousand years before the last judgement. This seems to be the only place in the new testament where a really long time period is taught. The "long time" in Matthew 24:48 and 25:19 could be the time leading up to AD 70.
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All you need to do is to take note of the letters on the cross.
INRI
It's an abbreviation of "I'm not returning immediately".
Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm, In Latin meaning "Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews".
The truth is always different from what you think it is.
It is this that you really need to learn.
It was written originally to annoy the Jews who killed him though innocent because he claimed to be the Messiah the Son of God.
You have something in common with the writer, you write it because we claim Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God and coming back soon.
God knew the Jews would reject and kill Jesus. But what is your excuse... what good will come out of your rejecting Jesus and the truth?
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You have something in common with the writer, you write it because we claim Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God and coming back soon.
'Soon'?
As in the common English usage of the word?
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'Soon'?
As in the common English usage of the word?
How long is a piece of string?
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How long is a piece of string?
So not actually soon then as you originally asserted?
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How long is a piece of string?
So not 'soon' then.
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The end has been nigh for a very long time. I remember the sandwich board men strutting their stuff with this message when I was a kid in the 50s. Whenever there is a national or world crisis the end times merchants get very excited, proclaiming the problems we are experiencing are predicted, although you have to have a very vivid imagination to interpret the Biblical verses they are suggesting refer to whichever crisis we are living through! Remember Harold Campion, who predicted the end of the world erroneously on at least three occasions, and still had the gullible believing him?
Jesus suggested the end times would happen in the lifetime of his disciples. If he couldn't get it right who could?
I think the end timers get a real kick out of scaring people with their nonsense.
You can still get the sandwich boards and the overhead signage too at topnotchsigns.co.uk
ippy
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Apparently there are still some sandwich board men around proclaiming, ' Repent the end is nigh', so someone told me yesterday. :o
YES, and what's wrong with that?
ippy
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So not actually soon then as you originally asserted?
Sebastian Toe
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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2016, 05:58:19 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Sassy on October 13, 2016, 11:03:47 AM
You have something in common with the writer, you write it because we claim Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God and coming back soon.
'Soon'?
As in the common English usage of the word?
Had you understood what you actually asked then you would have understood.
"How long is a piece of string." in the common English usage of the word.
How long is soon in the common English usage and how long is a piece of string in common English usage.
The answer is:- whatever the person wants it to be.
So Christ said " No one knows the day of his return only God.
The only person who knows the length of their piece of string is the person who is cutting the string and the time set by God like the string can be as long or short as the persons wants it to be.
Again you ask about things the answer is in the bible for regarding the return of Christ.
If a day and thousand years are the same to God.(You would have known if you read the bible) then you tell us what 'Soon' in common English means to God.
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If a day and thousand years are the same to God.(You would have known if you read the bible) then you tell us what 'Soon' in common English means to God.
It doesn't really matter what it means to God.
He was communicating with humans and humans reckon time in human terms.
If his intention was that he wouldn't be back for at least 2000 years then he shouldn't have misled people by using the word soon. If anything, he should have said that he won't be returning soon.
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Had you understood what you actually asked then you would have understood.
"How long is a piece of string." in the common English usage of the word.
How long is soon in the common English usage and how long is a piece of string in common English usage.
The answer is:- whatever the person wants it to be.
So Christ said " No one knows the day of his return only God.
The only person who knows the length of their piece of string is the person who is cutting the string and the time set by God like the string can be as long or short as the persons wants it to be.
Again you ask about things the answer is in the bible for regarding the return of Christ.
If a day and thousand years are the same to God.(You would have known if you read the bible) then you tell us what 'Soon' in common English means to God.
Well if you want to redefine all words in the English language to mean 'whatever the person wants it to be' that certainly explains why a lot of your posts here are barely understandable.
Most people here use words in their common usage and can communicate meaning faily easily - you on the other hand....... :-\
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It doesn't really matter what it means to God.
He was communicating with humans and humans reckon time in human terms.
If his intention was that he wouldn't be back for at least 2000 years then he shouldn't have misled people by using the word soon. If anything, he should have said that he won't be returning soon.
He didn't mislead the word soon can mean any length of time and as he had told them.
King James Bible
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
They knew that he was not telling them that the soon would be in their own life time.
Christ clearly told the disciples he had gone to prepare a place for them and was coming back for them.
Which he did as we see with Stephen. Acts 7 when stoned to death.
Constantly make comments for which it is obvious you have no knowledge or understanding about.
Christians, know Christ was not telling them he was coming ''soon'' as in next week or next month but that he like they knew that only God knew when.
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He didn't mislead the word soon can mean any length of time
soon
suːn/
adverb
adverb: soon; comparative adverb: sooner; superlative adverb: soonest
1.
in or after a short time.
"everyone will soon know the truth"
synonyms: in a short time, shortly, presently, in the near future, before long, in a little while, in a minute, in a moment, in an instant, in a twinkling, in the twinkling of an eye, before you know it, any minute (now), any day (now), any time (now), by and by; informalpronto, in (less than) no time, in no time (at all), in a jiffy, in two shakes, in two shakes of a lamb's tail, before you can say Jack Robinson;
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Ah but that is just a mere dictionary definition, it is the one Sass comes up with that counts! ;D ;D ;D
Sass is more than happy to quote dictionary definitions when it suits her!
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"Son, never trust a man who doesn’t drink because he’s probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They’re the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They’re usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they’re a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can’t trust a man who’s afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It’s damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he’s heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl." - James Crumley.
Just so as you know Floo ;)
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Agree the end has been nigh for a long time so I take no notice of it. The idea for Christians (who are Christ's disciples) is that we should always be prepared in the sense of doing our best and then not worry about it but, certainly, there are those who constantly feel Armageddon is imminent and see all sorts of signs. I'm not one of them! There have always been 'signs'. Makes for good literature with TV mini-series spin offs.
It also made for at least one great work of art:
www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/martin-the-great-day-of-his-wrath-n05613
The Great Day of His Wrath by John Martin
Beyond that, I suppose it keeps those who believe such things on their toes. However, this generally means bellowing on street corners, rather than being more usefully employed.
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He didn't mislead the word soon can mean any length of time and as he had told them.
I'll be interested to see that definition for "soon" in our dictionaries.
Please show me.
The floor is yours....
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I'll be interested to see that definition for "soon" in our dictionaries.
Please show me.
The floor is yours....
I don't have the problem you do! Taking things out of the context they were said is your biggest deceptive reasoning when it comes to answering posts.
Sassy
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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2016, 10:59:57 AM »
Quote from: Khatru on October 16, 2016, 10:26:15 AM
It doesn't really matter what it means to God.
He was communicating with humans and humans reckon time in human terms.
If his intention was that he wouldn't be back for at least 2000 years then he shouldn't have misled people by using the word soon. If anything, he should have said that he won't be returning soon.
He didn't mislead the word soon can mean any length of time and as he had told them.
King James Bible
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
They knew that he was not telling them that the soon would be in their own life time.
Christ clearly told the disciples he had gone to prepare a place for them and was coming back for them.
Which he did as we see with Stephen. Acts 7 when stoned to death.
Constantly make comments for which it is obvious you have no knowledge or understanding about.
Christians, know Christ was not telling them he was coming ''soon'' as in next week or next month but that he like they knew that only God knew when.
Modify message
As I said, the disciples knew that Christ had no idea only the Father when he would return.
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And:
[27]" For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.
[28] Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Matt 16
Also
[63] But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
[64] Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Matt 27
We can take Matthew 16:28 and 27:64, which are talking about the Son of Man, to be a reference to the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13 (also talking about the Son of Man). In Acts 7:55-56, Stephen sees Jesus standing at the right hand of God,. So we see that whatever it was Jesus was talking about in Matthew16:28 and 27:64 was seen by Stephen at the time when the persecution against the church broke out, starting with that of Stephen.
The enthronement of the son of man referred to by Daniel must therefore have taken place when Jesus ascended into heaven. Coming on or with the clouds means coming to the ancient of days to receive the kingdom (Daniel 7:14).
That just leaves Matthew 16:27, which looks like a reference to the last judgement.
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We can take that last verse, which is talking about the Son of Man, as a reference to the fulfillment of Daniel 7:14 (also talking about the Son of Man). Also notice that Jesus told the high priest he would see the Son of Man at the right hand of God (and coming on the clouds of heaven). Then read Acts 7:55-56, in which Stephen sees Jesus standing at the right hand of God,. So we see that whatever it was Jesus was talking about in Matthew16:28 was seen by Stephen at the time when the persecution against the church broke out, starting with that of Stephen.
The enthronement of the son of man referred to by Daniel must therefore have taken place when Jesus ascended into heaven. Coming on or with the clouds means coming to the ancient of days to receive the kingdom (Daniel 7:14).
That just leaves Matthew 16:27, which looks like a reference to the last judgement.
.....soon?
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Having noticed that post 83 didn't make sense I've edited it, apologies for any confusion.
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.....soon?
After the Millennium
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Whether it is a reference or not, there is no evidence there is such a scenario as the last judgement.
Actually the destruction of Jerusalem proves that that part of Jesus' prophecy was true, which means that the part about the final judgement could also be true.
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I bet the destruction of the Temple had nothing to do with any so called 'prophesy' made by Jesus; words were put into his mouth after the event!
There wouldn't be any Christians today if he hadn't said it.
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After the Millennium
Which one?
..and will it be soon?
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That just leaves Matthew 16:27, which looks like a reference to the last judgement.
It does indeed, and mirrors in its details all the other prophecies mentioned, including the one given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians. This being the case, and presuming Christians think Christ cannot be mistaken, Matt 16:27 implies that some of the people Jesus was speaking to are still alive.....
And this is the reason that scripture has been given the absurd interpretation that it refers to the Transfiguration, which was supposed to have occurred a few days later. Unfortunately, there were no angels and universal judgment reported to have occurred at the Transfiguration.
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It does indeed, and mirrors in its details all the other prophecies mentioned, including the one given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians. This being the case, and presuming Christians think Christ cannot be mistaken, Matt 16:27 implies that some of the people Jesus was speaking to are still alive.....
And this is the reason that scripture has been given the absurd interpretation that it refers to the Transfiguration, which was supposed to have occurred a few days later. Unfortunately, there were no angels and universal judgment reported to have occurred at the Transfiguration.
The last judgment aside, I think Acts 7:55-56 shows that Jesus had already 'come in his kingdom' (Matthew) - or as Mark put it, that the kingdom of God had come with power. Because Stephen saw Jesus at God's right hand.
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I don't have the problem you do! Taking things out of the context they were said is your biggest deceptive reasoning when it comes to answering posts.
He didn't mislead the word soon can mean any length of time and as he had told them.
King James Bible
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
They knew that he was not telling them that the soon would be in their own life time.
Christ clearly told the disciples he had gone to prepare a place for them and was coming back for them.
Which he did as we see with Stephen. Acts 7 when stoned to death.
Constantly make comments for which it is obvious you have no knowledge or understanding about.
Christians, know Christ was not telling them he was coming ''soon'' as in next week or next month but that he like they knew that only God knew when.
Modify message
As I said, the disciples knew that Christ had no idea only the Father when he would return.
You said the word "soon" can mean "any length of time".
I asked you to show me the dictionary definition for this.
You failed to do so.
Looks like you've got a problem there, Sass.
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I wonder why the 'end timers' are so keen to get 'upstairs'? If an afterlife does exist I suspect it would be nothing like they think it will be.
Robots programmed to spend eternity telling Yaweh how great he is.
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WOW what tremendous fun, NOT! ::)
Robots in Heaven
It has to be that.
How else is Yaweh going to stop everything going pear-shaped?
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Thanks for that, Floo. The last bit certtainly was a laugh out loud!
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Why do you believe everything in the Bible is literally true, as you appear to do?
Floo
I don't think Spud is arguing for a 'literal' truth in these instances (at least as far as dating the Last Judgment, End times etc). What he's doing is promoting an extremely convoluted interpretation of a number of scriptures. If he were arguing for a literal truth on these matters, then there wouldn't be such a devious distortion of the meaning of such words as "soon", "quickly", in "this generation" etc. We all know what the literal meanings of such words are (and many modern biblical scholars of a critical outlook are quite happy with such literal interpretations here). The reason why fundamentalists and evangelicals are not happy with a literal interpretation of the time-interval involved is that it leads to the horrific implication that Jesus got it wrong.
This fits in with the usual procedure of fundamentalists and evangelicals: unless the scriptures are obviously of a poetic nature such as Psalms and Song of Solomon, they are quite happy to proceed "literally". This brings problems, because contradictions and other anomalies soon arise, and there are many - as you well know. It is then that the whole apparatus of convoluted exegesis and interpretation comes in to play, until the obstacle is explained away, and then the literal reading can continue until the next stumbling block.
So while such Christians certainly believe that all the Bible is true , it's certainly not the case that it's all a literal truth that's being asserted.
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I used to believe with all my heart and soul that I was a millionaire so I went out and bought a brand new car.
Three days later I was arrested when the cheque bounced
so much for belief eh!
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But some Christians do believe every word of the Bible is true, and the word of god.
and therein lies the problem,Floo
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Very good post, Dicky. I suppose the words over the eucharist are also disputed, aren't they? 'This is my body' - well not literally, if you are a Proddy dog.
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Untransubstantiation rocks!
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Very good post, Dicky. I suppose the words over the eucharist are also disputed, aren't they? 'This is my body' - well not literally, if you are a Proddy dog.
Not literally according to some early Church leaders. In AD 400, Augustine quotes Cyprian (AD 200): "For as Christ says 'I am the true vine,' it follows that the blood of Christ is wine, not water; and the cup cannot appear to contain His blood by which we are redeemed and quickened, if the wine be absent; for by the wine is the blood of Christ typified, ..."
wikipedia
Note the use of 'typified' in the final sentence.
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But some Christians do believe every word of the Bible is true, and the word of god.
There are many Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is true, without requiring a belief in transubstantiation, Floo. One has to look at what the words say in context, rather than in isolation - which is, sadly, what many non-believers and even some believers do.
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There are many Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is true, without requiring a belief in transubstantiation, Floo. One has to look at what the words say in context, rather than in isolation - which is, sadly, what many non-believers and even some believers do.
There are many Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is true, without requiring a belief in transubstantiation, Floo. One has to look at what the words say in context, rather than in isolation - which is, sadly, what many non-believers and even some believers do.
Wot Hope said.
It's perfectly possible to accept Scripture as the word of God without accepting it as literal history - which is not its' purpose.
(Though, as I've pointed out, the events of Scripture and the wider world do coincide to a remarkable extent from the tentjh century BC onward)
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I thought that Dicky was making the point that no-one is a literalist. Or at any rate, literalism always has exceptions.
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do you know what Wiggs, I'm literally sick of that word. its literally everywhere!
I thank you
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No, please, on the other hand, allow me to return your thanks a thousand fold, literally sincerely and Biblically.
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....the end is nigh, brace yourself, as I told the wife during our afternoon delight session earlier today, literally.
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Walter, I find a brace too much now at my age, I said to the wife, half a noggin is better than, oh I don't know, then she fell asleep.
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wigs, keep in touch with yourself mate!
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Which basically means, basically take yourself in hand, Walter.
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Floo
I don't think Spud is arguing for a 'literal' truth in these instances (at least as far as dating the Last Judgment, End times etc). What he's doing is promoting an extremely convoluted interpretation of a number of scriptures. If he were arguing for a literal truth on these matters, then there wouldn't be such a devious distortion of the meaning of such words as "soon", "quickly", in "this generation" etc. We all know what the literal meanings of such words are (and many modern biblical scholars of a critical outlook are quite happy with such literal interpretations here). The reason why fundamentalists and evangelicals are not happy with a literal interpretation of the time-interval involved is that it leads to the horrific implication that Jesus got it wrong.
This fits in with the usual procedure of fundamentalists and evangelicals: unless the scriptures are obviously of a poetic nature such as Psalms and Song of Solomon, they are quite happy to proceed "literally". This brings problems, because contradictions and other anomalies soon arise, and there are many - as you well know. It is then that the whole apparatus of convoluted exegesis and interpretation comes in to play, until the obstacle is explained away, and then the literal reading can continue until the next stumbling block.
So while such Christians certainly believe that all the Bible is true , it's certainly not the case that it's all a literal truth that's being asserted.
You need to look at the bigger picture. From the beginning, God promised that he would send a Messiah to save mankind from sin and death. Until that time, he set up the sun, moon and stars as signs that told men about God and when to worship him. Passover was celebrated at the first full moon after the vernal equinox, for example.
When the Messiah came and fulfilled the Passover and other festivals by his work of salvation, the whole system became obsolete. Jesus gave the Jews "The sign of Jonah". This was the death and resurrection of the prophet, followed by 40 days during which they had to repent to avoid destruction. This was a sign to Israel that after the death and resurrection of the Messiah, there would be 40 years for them to repent and start relying on Jesus rather than the temple sacrifices. But they continued to use the temple for sacrifices even though that system was obsolete. The sacrificial system fulfilled, it was destroyed completely in AD 70. This is prophesied in Joel 2:31, pictured as the sun and moon being eclipsed, because they were the 'clock' that the system relied on.
As the gospel of the Messiah's salvation was preached to the nations, all their systems of belief would be replaced by the 'sun' of Christ, and Christianity the true religion. This is described in Joel 3:15 as the sun and moon being darkened for the Gentiles. It is what Matthew 24:29-31 is about. The sign would appear of the Son of Man in heaven: in other words, people would understand that Jesus is king, because they would see the tribulation of the saints and God's judgment in response (typified by the persecution of the Apostolic Church under Nero and the events of AD 70 that followed).
Matthew 23-25 is a structural unit, which begins with the scribes and Pharisees on the judgment seat (of Moses) and ends with Christ on the throne at the last judgment.
In ch. 23-24 he basically says that the sin committed during the time leading up to the Messiah would come upon that generation. And he finishes in ch 25 by giving the eternal destiny of the righteous and the wicked.
The thing is that the judgment on the generation that rejected the Messiah is conflated with the final judgment that includes the generations to whom the gospel has been preached (see Mat 28:19). What we have is a situation a bit like the Old Testament prophets gave. When Nathan told David that David's son's kingdom would last forever, that was pointing not just to Solomon but to the future Messiah. When Isaiah told Ahaz that a virgin would have a son who would be called Immanuel, that was fulfilled both in (?) Isaiah's wife's son and in the Messiah.
Likewise, the prophecy of the destruction of the wicked in the generation that rejected the Messiah (Mat 23:35) points also to the final judgment at the end of the gospel age. The two are separated in Revelation, where we are shown the destruction of the great city (Babylon, symbolizing Jerusalem, Rev. 17-19), followed by the thousand years during which Satan cannot deceive the nations because the Church binds him with its preaching of the gospel of salvation (Rev 20). Then we are shown the last judgment. There is a double fulfillment.
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........followed by the thousand years during which Satan cannot deceive the nations because the Church binds him with its preaching of the gospel of salvation (Rev 20).
When did that happen? .....if it has....
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When did that happen? .....if it has....
I think we've discussed this before. The thousand years are a symbol representing the time between the Messiah and the final judgment.
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In your opinion, with nothing to substantiate it. ::)
The cattle on a thousand hills substantiate it, flew.
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I think we've discussed this before. The thousand years are a symbol representing the time between the Messiah and the final judgment.
You couldn't make it up could you?
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Explain that comment?
It's a bit like, "Pigs might fly", only substitute red heifers ;).
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I think we've discussed this before. The thousand years are a symbol representing the time between the Messiah and the final judgment.
So, not actually 1000 years then?
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Explain that comment?
For every beast of the forest is mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
Ps. 50:10
The idea is that God owns all the cattle. A thousand is the number used to indicate a great number of hills.
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Nope. Just the owner of them all - and everything else, for that matter.
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Nope. Just the owner of them all - and everything else, for that matter.
Is thst recorded in the sasine register?
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Nah. The Psalms, innit!
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Nah. The Psalms, innit!
Thst wont get you far in the Sheriff Court!
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If God 'owns' ALL then He needs to take a damn sight better care of them ?!?!!?!? ;) ::)
Nick
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A little thought (thank you Keil & Delitzsch commentary on the OT) about Matthew 26:63-65.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e
65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
I've often wondered why the high priest treats this as blasphemy, since Jesus in his answer to the high priest uses the title, "Son of Man" for himself, having been asked to tell them if he is the Son of God.
In Daniel 7:13, "one like a son of man" is seen coming with the clouds of heaven. Jesus is clearly referring to this passage in his statement. So because God is the only one of whom it is said that he makes the clouds his chariot (Psalm 104:3, cf. Isaiah 19:1), therefore Jesus is claiming equality with God, divine status. This explains why the high priest treats the statement as blasphemy.
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A little thought (thank you Keil & Delitzsch commentary on the OT) about Matthew 26:63-65.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
I've often wondered why the high priest treats this as blasphemy, since Jesus in his answer to the high priest uses the title, "Son of Man" for himself, having been asked to tell them if he is the Son of God.
In Daniel 7:13, "one like a son of man" is seen coming with the clouds of heaven. Jesus is clearly referring to this passage in his statement. So because God is the only one of whom it is said that he makes the clouds his chariot (Psalm 104:3, cf. Isaiah 19:1), therefore Jesus is claiming equality with God, divine status. This explains why the high priest treats the statement as blasphemy.
So does this make Elisha God, too.
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
You are desperate to do what the Apostles warned against.
It is in saying Jesus is the Son of God which made it blasphemy. Because as with being a Son of Abraham, to be a son of God you have to do as your father does. So true descendants of Abraham would have recognised who Christ was. Those who knew God would also have recognised who Christ was.
So Anna, Simeon and those who waited knowing and understanding what the Holy Spirit had told them recognised who Christ was. The annointed one from God.
As Christ pointed out, a son/descendant does the same as his Father.
It does not make them Abraham himself or God himself.
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So does this make Elisha God, too.
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
You are desperate to do what the Apostles warned against.
It is in saying Jesus is the Son of God which made it blasphemy. Because as with being a Son of Abraham, to be a son of God you have to do as your father does. So true descendants of Abraham would have recognised who Christ was. Those who knew God would also have recognised who Christ was.
So Anna, Simeon and those who waited knowing and understanding what the Holy Spirit had told them recognised who Christ was. The annointed one from God.
As Christ pointed out, a son/descendant does the same as his Father.
It does not make them Abraham himself or God himself.
To quote K/D on Daniel 7:13,
The superhuman or divine nature of the person seen in the form of a man lies in the coming with the clouds of heaven, since it is true only of God that He makes the clouds His chariot; Psalm 104:3, cf. Isaiah 19:1. But on the other hand, also, the words do not exclude the humanity...
But it's an interesting point you make about Elijah.
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Most people assume it was to do with the second coming. However, we have no idea if what Jesus is quoted as saying was actually said by him at all. No one apparently was writing down what Jesus said when he was alive, and tape recorders hadn't been invented, so it would be hard for anyone to remember word for word exactly what was said. How many of us could quote accurately a conversation we had last week, let alone remember it years later.
So why do you think that refers to his second coming rather than the fall of Jerusalem (AD 70)? Please answer my question.
However, in response to your question:
1) They were not all as old as you, dear lady. ;)
2) They believed, rightly or wrongly, that they were listening to the Messiah and would presumably have listened more closely than in most conversations.
3) Jesus often spoke in a structured way, for examples in parables which themselves had structures, often chiasms where stuff is put in a particular manner to highlight the main point (not at this particular point though).
4) Most people could not write, yet disciples of rabbis were taught to learn things off by heart.
5) Some people, though relatively few, could write and it is possible that one or more wrote down the substance of what Jesus said. It is often trotted out that very few people could read, but this is demonstrably false as reading "Reading and writing in the Time of Jesus" by Alan Milard of Liverpool University would show you (if you have £25 to spend).
Over to you, please, to answer the question I put to you.
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It does indeed, and [Matthew 16:27-28] mirrors in its details all the other prophecies mentioned, including the one given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians.
In Matthew 12:41-42 Jesus hints that AD 70 (the subject of Matthew 24) and the physical resurrection (the subject of 1 Thess. 4:13ff; 1 Cor 15) are separate events:
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
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I very much doubt those disciples of Jesus were able to repeat everything he was supposed have said off by heart even if they were still alive when the gospels were written. Besides which, even if Jesus did say what he is quoted as saying, it is pretty meaningless in reality and open to many interpretations!
Floo have a look at the post from NS in the science section if you want to get a perspective on reality, its a good read.
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For every beast of the forest is mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
Ps. 50:10
The idea is that God owns all the cattle. A thousand is the number used to indicate a great number of hills.
Sounds about as realistic as any other aspect of religions.
ippy
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Sounds about as realistic as any other aspect of religions.
ippy
Not really - and this was a common aspect of literature.
The Egyptians had a phrase which even knocks it into a cocked hat....
"May you live for millions of years."
Few did.
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I reckon if Christianity is still being practised 2000 years hence some will still be predicting the end times are imminent. Of course one day our world will end through natural processes, nothing to do with any god.
Assuming, of course, that natural processes aren't all to do with a God in the first place, Floo. As I think several people have pointed out, Christianity believes that that is the case, and that non-believers' appeals to 'natural causes' is somewhat of a misnomer.
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Assuming, of course, that natural processes aren't all to do with a God in the first place, Floo.
Assumptions are easy of course but whether they are correct is another matter.
As I think several people have pointed out, Christianity believes that that is the case
Ditto beliefs, so a method to demonstrate the assumed relationship between claims of divine agency and 'natural processes' is required else were stuck at beliefs based on assumptions - got such a method?
and that non-believers' appeals to 'natural causes' is somewhat of a misnomer.
Then you'll need to throw some un-natural causes into the mix and explain how we identify and classify these (via the method noted above).
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Assumptions are easy of course but whether they are correct is another matter.
I think that that point ought to be directed towards Floo, Gordon. After all, it is she who has made an unsupported assumption. All I've done is call her out on it.
Ditto beliefs, so a method to demonstrate the assumed relationship between claims of divine agency and 'natural processes' is required else were stuck at beliefs based on assumptions - got such a method?
Not my favourite form of method, but the very fact that there are events and processes at work in life that have no naturalistic explanations, would suggest that there is something beyond the mere natural
Then you'll need to throw some un-natural causes into the mix and explain how we identify and classify these (via the method noted above).
The most well-known one is so-called 'spontaneous healing' when used in the context of medical science and its inability to explain why some condition reverses or simply disappears with no logical explanation. This is most dramatic when all known physical attributes have been exhausted - either within the sufferer or from the side of medical science. Or what about situations where all scientific evidence points to a certain outcome, such as death following a massive crash in a car, and yet the person/people step out of the mangled wreck with minimal injury. The fact that they are 'non-natural' in nature means that classifying them in the 'natural' way becomes difficult, perhaps even impossible because they don't match natural categories.
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Not my favourite form of method, but the very fact that there are events and processes at work in life that have no naturalistic explanations, would suggest that there is something beyond the mere natural
How do you identify stuff that you say has no naturalistic explanation?
The most well-known one is so-called 'spontaneous healing' when used in the context of medical science and its inability to explain why some condition reverses or simply disappears with no logical explanation.
Nope - we've been here before and we know your knowledge of medical science is anecdotal at best. That medical science is a work on progress and is happy to accomodate a 'don't know' position means that spontaneous remission is no more than an indication that there is more to learn.
This is most dramatic when all known physical attributes have been exhausted - either within the sufferer or from the side of medical science. Or what about situations where all scientific evidence points to a certain outcome, such as death following a massive crash in a car, and yet the person/people step out of the mangled wreck with minimal injury. The fact that they are 'non-natural' in nature means that classifying them in the 'natural' way becomes difficult, perhaps even impossible because they don't match natural categories.
Utter tripe, and I do believe I've mentioned before that I have the advantage of you in terms of direct experience of medical intervention by dint of a long NHS career, part of which was spent in a variety of clinical settings, and your argument here is no more than a mix of anecdote and your own personal incredulity. Your claim that aspects of medicine or the reasons people require medical intervention involve anything 'non-natural' is utter bollocks of the first magnitude.
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the very fact that there are events and processes at work in life that have no naturalistic explanations, would suggest that there is something beyond the mere natural
There's a difference between a phenomenon not having a naturalistic explanation and you not knowing what the naturalistic explanation is.The latter does not imply the former.
The most well-known one is so-called 'spontaneous healing' when used in the context of medical science and its inability to explain why some condition reverses or simply disappears with no logical explanation.
Has that ever happened though?
Or what about situations where all scientific evidence points to a certain outcome
Science doesn't deal in certainties.
such as death following a massive crash in a car, and yet the person/people step out of the mangled wreck with minimal injury. The fact that they are 'non-natural' in nature means that classifying them in the 'natural' way becomes difficult, perhaps even impossible because they don't match natural categories.
People have got very good at analysing car crashes to find out why the occupants survived or didn't.
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Aren't there some incidents, even up to NOW, that have no explanation to or from ANYONE on earth?
Nick
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I think that that point ought to be directed towards Floo, Gordon. After all, it is she who has made an unsupported assumption. All I've done is call her out on it.
Not my favourite form of method, but the very fact that there are events and processes at work in life that have no naturalistic explanations, would suggest that there is something beyond the mere natural
The most well-known one is so-called 'spontaneous healing' when used in the context of medical science and its inability to explain why some condition reverses or simply disappears with no logical explanation. This is most dramatic when all known physical attributes have been exhausted - either within the sufferer or from the side of medical science. Or what about situations where all scientific evidence points to a certain outcome, such as death following a massive crash in a car, and yet the person/people step out of the mangled wreck with minimal injury. The fact that they are 'non-natural' in nature means that classifying them in the 'natural' way becomes difficult, perhaps even impossible because they don't match natural categories.
The classic 'God of the gaps'!
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Aren't there some incidents, even up to NOW, that have no explanation to or from ANYONE on earth?
Nick
can you give examples?
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Aren't there some incidents, even up to NOW, that have no explanation to or from ANYONE on earth?
Nick
Quantum theory and relativity are both well tested theories yet they contradict each other and that remains unexplained. And yet we don't say it must be supernatural, rather we say we don't understand it yet. There is ultimately no case for calling anything supernatural, it just closes the door on our attempt to understand.
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I don't think that gravity is well understood. There seem to be various theories accounting for it, e.g. gravity particles/waves/fields. Therefore God?
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I don't think that gravity is well understood. There seem to be various theories accounting for it, e.g. gravity particles/waves/fields. Therefore God?
I wish I had known earlier, I could have saved myself a lot of time.
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When did that happen? .....if it has....
Just to add that the binding of Satan can be understood better by reading what happens when he is loosed, after the thousand years are ended.
When he is loosed, he will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth. This implies that all the nations will be deceived together. So, for Satan to be bound means that he is prevented from deceiving all the nations at one time. Individual people and nations yes, but all together, no, not until the end of the thousand years.
Jesus used metaphor to indicate that during his ministry he was binding Satan and robbing his house. Thus the thousand years started in AD 70 with his judgment on the apostate Old Covenant church, which Satan had taken over, and the destruction of its temple.
Jesus' 'parousia', or 'second coming', encompassed this event, which was the visible proof that he was sitting at God's right hand, his kingdom having been established. It also encompasses the time when the dead will rise for judgment, which Revelation 20 tells us will take place after Satan's release.
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Just to add that the binding of Satan can be understood better by reading what happens when he is loosed, after the thousand years are ended.
When he is loosed, he will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth. This implies that all the nations will be deceived together. So, for Satan to be bound means that he is prevented from deceiving all the nations at one time. Individual people and nations yes, but all together, no, not until the end of the thousand years.
Jesus used metaphor to indicate that during his ministry he was binding Satan and robbing his house. Thus the thousand years started in AD 70 with his judgment on the apostate Old Covenant church, which Satan had taken over, and the destruction of its temple.
Jesus' 'parousia', or 'second coming', encompassed this event, which was the visible proof that he was sitting at God's right hand, his kingdom having been established. It also encompasses the time when the dead will rise for judgment, which Revelation 20 tells us will take place after Satan's release.
Did that answer my question?
I'm not sure that it did. :-\
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Just to add that the binding of Satan can be understood better by reading what happens when he is loosed, after the thousand years are ended.
When he is loosed, he will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth. This implies that all the nations will be deceived together. So, for Satan to be bound means that he is prevented from deceiving all the nations at one time. Individual people and nations yes, but all together, no, not until the end of the thousand years.
Jesus used metaphor to indicate that during his ministry he was binding Satan and robbing his house. Thus the thousand years started in AD 70 with his judgment on the apostate Old Covenant church, which Satan had taken over, and the destruction of its temple.
Jesus' 'parousia', or 'second coming', encompassed this event, which was the visible proof that he was sitting at God's right hand, his kingdom having been established. It also encompasses the time when the dead will rise for judgment, which Revelation 20 tells us will take place after Satan's release.
Spud , do you actually believe this bollocks?
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When he is loosed, he will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth. This implies that all the nations will be deceived together. So, for Satan to be bound means that he is prevented from deceiving all the nations at one time. Individual people and nations yes, but all together, no, not until the end of the thousand years.
So, since you say 'when he is loosed' then Satan is still 'bound' - yes?
Jesus used metaphor to indicate that during his ministry he was binding Satan and robbing his house. Thus the thousand years started in AD 70 with his judgment on the apostate Old Covenant church, which Satan had taken over, and the destruction of its temple.
Then the 1,000 years must have ended in 1070 CE, since this is simple arithmetic, so how then can Satan still be 'bound' since the thousand years has long since passed (by 946 years)? You, or someone, clearly can't count.
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So, since you say 'when he is loosed' then Satan is still 'bound' - yes?
Then the 1,000 years must have ended in 1070 CE, since this is simple arithmetic, so how then can Satan still be 'bound' since the thousand years has long since passed (by 946 years)? You, or someone, clearly can't count.
facts tend to get in the way of the story though
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Seb,
The 'thousand years' are not a literal time period; they symbolize the time during which the church on earth preaches the gospel to the world. So it's happening now.
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Seb,
The 'thousand years' are not a literal time period; they symbolize the time during which the church on earth preaches the gospel to the world. So it's happening now.
Why did you previously post as if it was a literal time period?
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Seb,
The 'thousand years' are not a literal time period; they symbolize the time during which the church on earth preaches the gospel to the world. So it's happening now.
Could you not have just said that to begin with?
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Could you not have just said that to begin with?
Sorry; as I said in #122, I thought we had discussed it before.
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Seb,
The 'thousand years' are not a literal time period; they symbolize the time during which the church on earth preaches the gospel to the world. So it's happening now.
How convenient.
Since presumably someone at some point mentioned this 'thousand years', which implies precision, on what basis (other than convenience) does this claim become symbolic?
Sounds like a fudge to me.
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How convenient.
Since presumably someone at some point mentioned this 'thousand years', which implies precision, on what basis (other than convenience) does this claim become symbolic?
Sounds like a fudge to me.
A literal fudge, or something else? :) Well, there is no mention of it elsewhere in the bible. Second, the angel has already stated in chapter 1 that the book is symbolic. Third, the dragon is stated to be a symbol for Satan (20:2), so we should treat the chain used to bind it, the bottomless pit and the thousand years as symbolic too.
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A literal fudge, or something else? :) Well, there is no mention of it elsewhere in the bible. Second, the angel has already stated in chapter 1 that the book is symbolic. Third, the dragon is stated to be a symbol for Satan (20:2), so we should treat the chain used to bind it, the bottomless pit and the thousand years as symbolic too.
In other words it is an old story: not to be taken literally at all.
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The Revelation of St Monbiot is here:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/25/13-crises-we-face-trump-soil-loss-global-collapse
At last a secular view that doesn't use that simpering Rose tinted bad prophesy of the Pinkers and Dawkinses and their
'Every day in every way were getting better and better-Human progress'' chuff.
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That link was depressing reading.
I think Pinker is right to a degree, in that humans accumulate knowledge, and falling crime rates and more humane attitudes across the board reflect that. On the other hand, the deeper fundamentals of human nature do not change with anything like the speed of acquisition of new knowledge, indeed the drivers of human motivation and choice are probably unchanged from those of our hunter gatherer ancestors. So here we are, essentially precocious five year olds who have figured out how to make thermonuclear warheads but there is no teacher on duty in the playground to stop us blowing ourselves up.
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That link was depressing reading.
.....So here we are, essentially precocious five year olds.......
Speak for yourself.
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In other words it is an old story: not to be taken literally at all.
It does have a meaning, being written to show its readers what was soon to take place. That bit is to be taken literally.
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Most religions teach that the world will end but the majority of Christians don't think about it that much except to believe that we should be ready, because we don't know when it will be. They don't look for signs or worry about them if they are pointed out.
On forums I've encountered a few who are quite certain about recent and current signs and preach that it will be soon.
One definition of eschatology is 'The science of the end times', which made me think of Nicholas.
I found this, it's brief and bundles different groups of particular faiths together under main headings, eg "Christian", but gives a broad overall of what each faith teaches about end times. (Not "overall", a word like that.)
http://www.contenderministries.org/prophecy/eschatology.php
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Only if you have an overactive imagination! ::)
Just thought I'd put down a few thoughts on this so you can see a bit more of the picture. Before the millennium (Rev 20), it's still the first Century AD. The beast (aka the beast that came out of the sea - see Rev 13) and the false prophet (aka the beast that came out of the land - Rev 13) were captured and thrown into the lake of fire, Rev. 19:20.
The 'sea beast' stands for the 'oikumene', the empire of which Israel was part. Daniel 7 is the basis for this. Its first stage was the Babylonian empire, then the Persian, then the Greek, then the Roman empire. After AD 70 the Roman empire existed for a while but had served its purpose from the perspective of the vision that Daniel saw and the coming of the Messiah. Having turned against and persecuted Israel (which is now called the church) at the time of Nero, the Roman empire starts to decline. There is no longer any 'oikumene'.
The two-horned 'land beast' stands for the rulers of Israel, specifically the Herods and the chief priests, who rejected the Messiah, persecuted the church, and were judged in AD 70.
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You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say to suit any point of view, however daft. NM's interpretation must be one of the most unique! ;D
Ironically, it is more difficult 'to make the Bible say anything you want it to say' than many bits of British legislation. It is true that you can make out that it says whatever you want it to say, but even fairly cursory research will show whether this is remotely like what it means. I agree, study is required - something that some folk are loathe to undertake - but then I tend to take what they say with a sizeable pinch of salt.
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For how many decades have 'we' been saying 'The End Is Nigh' ???
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Is that 'The Royal We(e)', Tripster?
If it is a generic we, count me out. I have never said, "Repent the end is nigh".
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I meant all those who've said it but in a general way too.
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For how many decades have 'we' been saying 'The End Is Nigh' ???
The end is always nigh for when you life ends here then you have reached the final destination.
Your end is nigh in that what you do now decides what happens to you later.
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Your end is nigh in that what you do now decides what happens to you later
How do you know this for a fact?
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Sass 'knows' everything she posts is a 'fact'. ;D ;D ;D
Wrong. It's a 'FACT"! ::)
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How do you know this for a fact?
Read Dives and Lazarus....
Seems you can know them too, if you read the bible? :)
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Read Dives and Lazarus....
Seems you can know them too, if you read the bible? :)
Why does something appearing in The Bible make it a fact?
Please explain why you think this is a fact.
The Bible is a book. It does not necessarily represent reality.
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The Bible is a book. It does not necessarily represent reality.
Does reality necessarily represent the truth, Trent?
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Repent the end of the world is neigh is only a rumor put about by the manufacturers of the fameous A-boards some of them with an additional overhead signboard too.
topnotchsigns.co.uk
You lot buy your own I've allready got mine.
ippy
It's not the end of the world I'm worried about, it's the day after? (Some of the old ones are the best).
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Why does something appearing in The Bible make it a fact?
Please explain why you think this is a fact.
The Bible is a book. It does not necessarily represent reality.
Which reality would that be?
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Repent the end of the world is neigh is only a rumor put about by the manufacturers of the fameous A-boards some of them with an additional overhead signboard too.
topnotchsigns.co.uk
You lot buy your own I've allready got mine.
ippy
It's not the end of the world I'm worried about, it's the day after? (Some of the old ones are the best).
In which case, there is certainly no need to worry, after all, it isn't the end of the world, dear! :)
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I've said this before but at the risk of boring the pants off anyone (& they have the option of ignoring me), Christians do repent of their sins, I've never known one who doesn't. It's not a one-off either, we regularly think about things and feel sorry about some of them, big or small, then try not to repeat the error. At the same time we get on with life, it does no-one any good to be bogged down with their own misdemeanours, nevertheless repentance is real. Thus we are always ready for whatever happens (in the spiritual sense, maybe not in the physical human sense, like putting affairs in order....aaargh!).
My belief is that God knows us inside and out, he understands our struggles and sees if we have good hearts (generic "we"). I trust him to look after me, really cannot do any more so I have to make the best of what life I have left.
We don't know the minute or the hour, not of our physical death or of the end of the world. Even those who interpret signs (which I don't), cannot pinpoint the exact time of the latter.
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Wot Brownie said. Repentance is never a one off. Christians are still guilty of falling short of the standards God set for us. The only difference is that we have the assurance of our forgiveness, and our ticket for salvation guaranteed by God Himself at Calvary.
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Wot Brownie said. Repentance is never a one off. Christians are still guilty of falling short of the standards God set for us. The only difference is that we have the assurance of our forgiveness, and our ticket for salvation guaranteed by God Himself at Calvary.
Repentance is all about realising that following the world's machinations leads to the opposite of what Jesus taught to us and promised us and so choosing righteousness instead.
There are many benefits to quietly and calmly, sincereley and respectfully taking in the accurate knowledge of Jesus...many of which I have already brought to your attention...that is the collective 'your'. But there are also benefits not so obvious.
Take gravity for example. By repentance we become more spiritually aware and by upbuilding our spiritual strength gravity which bears heavily upon us all becomes less of a dead weight. We can see just how much of a burden it can be when we see many people shuffling around the hypermarket with various combersome difficulties. Now Jesus walked on water so following him...accurately...is a sure fire way of reducing the burden of gravity and will make repentance well worthwhile.
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That is not the literal meaning of the word 'repentance', NM Try to be 'accurate', please.
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That is not the literal meaning of the word 'repentance', NM Try to be 'accurate', please.
Sorry Anchorman...I write according to my righteous teaching inspired by Jesus Christ's accurate word. I'm aware that I can make mistakes but I'm not sure I have here.
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Repentance is all about realising that following the world's machinations leads to the opposite of what Jesus taught to us and promised us and so choosing righteousness instead.
There are many benefits to quietly and calmly, sincereley and respectfully taking in the accurate knowledge of Jesus...many of which I have already brought to your attention...that is the collective 'your'. But there are also benefits not so obvious.
Take gravity for example. By repentance we become more spiritually aware and by upbuilding our spiritual strength gravity which bears heavily upon us all becomes less of a dead weight. We can see just how much of a burden it can be when we see many people shuffling around the hypermarket with various combersome difficulties. Now Jesus walked on water so following him...accurately...is a sure fire way of reducing the burden of gravity and will make repentance well worthwhile.
Life in Christ, I personally find repentance is knowing who Jesus is and what he did for us all.
We repent of our sins resolved to walk in the light and knowledge of Jesus Christ so coming to know God.
The more we remove sin the close our walk and relationship with God develops. The more our relationship develops the less we want to sin and the more we recognise sin in our life and it becomes grevious to us.
It is a complete sacrifice so no need to sacrifice the LORD over and over again. A sacrifice which covers all sins when we come to God through Christ because Christ died for ALL sin. The sins of the world so we can know and love God and each other.
In our heavenly Fathers Kingdom, there is no least or no greater, we are all loved by God and held in the palm of his hand.
It isn't about what others think of us, it is the reassurance of God knowing and loving us that makes our walk with him count.
Paul said: " For me to live is Christ, to die is gain." He didn't mean just being alive here he meant being alive in Christ and dying to self here. In Christ he was made alive and the old person died.His gain is knowing Christ and walking in Gods way till it was time to be with the Lord Jesus and the LORD God.
We, that is each of us need to stop looking in the mirror and seeing what we think we are. But look in the mirror of love and see ourselves as God sees us. Restored, healed, forgiven and loved.
It is easier to fail if we see our old self, but it makes living as a believer easier when we see ourselves as God now sees us.
Nothing we earn or can earn but Gods love and grace changing us from within looking at us through his eyes.
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Sassy/Floo...
No arguments there Sassy. But we should be guided by the fact that neither Almighty God or Jesus are responsible for the way things are and repentance is about reclaiming life in the way Jesus showed us.
If our health is faulty or our circumstances, it is because we are in sin. That can be genetic sin or at the hand of evil, or at our own hands...and Jesus taught us how to shake off those sins. Not in an instant but progressively, in a slow and careful way, whilst supported by God's living waters which supplies the emotional strength and support required leading ultimately to everlasting life...don't be fooled by iniquity. This is achievable only by following Jesus righteously and accurately.
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NM health has NOTHING to do with faith, it is very wrong of you to claim it does. I know many devout Christians who have suffered from ghastly health problems. You are being very misleading, and frankly you are lying! >:(
I know someone suffering with mental health problems who was told by a devout Christian that they were caused by sin. He was so upset he tried to commit suicide! :o
That is very tragic and iniquity at its worst. Upbuilding a righteous spirit much more conjucive to righteous accuracy. Helping someone to attach to God's righteous word and subsequently God's living waters much more constructive because it is the same nourishment which feeds our emotional exhaustion.
You know you could prove me wrong by putting it to the test.
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That is very tragic and iniquity at its worst. Upbuilding a righteous spirit much more conjucive to righteous accuracy. Helping someone to attach to God's righteous word and subsequently God's living waters much more constructive because it is the same nourishment which feeds our emotional exhaustion.
You know you could prove me wrong by putting it to the test.
What test would that be?
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Sassy/Floo...
No arguments there Sassy. But we should be guided by the fact that neither Almighty God or Jesus are responsible for the way things are and repentance is about reclaiming life in the way Jesus showed us.
If our health is faulty or our circumstances, it is because we are in sin. That can be genetic sin or at the hand of evil, or at our own hands...and Jesus taught us how to shake off those sins. Not in an instant but progressively, in a slow and careful way, whilst supported by God's living waters which supplies the emotional strength and support required leading ultimately to everlasting life...don't be fooled by iniquity. This is achievable only by following Jesus righteously and accurately.
Sassy/Floo...
No arguments there Sassy. But we should be guided by the fact that neither Almighty God or Jesus are responsible for the way things are and repentance is about reclaiming life in the way Jesus showed us.
If our health is faulty or our circumstances, it is because we are in sin. That can be genetic sin or at the hand of evil, or at our own hands...and Jesus taught us how to shake off those sins. Not in an instant but progressively, in a slow and careful way, whilst supported by God's living waters which supplies the emotional strength and support required leading ultimately to everlasting life...don't be fooled by iniquity. This is achievable only by following Jesus righteously and accurately.
Sorry, NM, but with all respect, not only is that trash, but dangerous trash.
I know many Christians who are in poor health, and many othr Christians such as myself who are disabled.
You obviously haven't read what Jesus said on the matter.
Try doing so - accurately.
The wages of sin, NM, is death.
Not ill health,
Not disability -
And absolutely NOT cancer - another pet idea of yours.
There is no Christian doctrine which supports this in any way whatsoever.
Try thinking - accurately - please.
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I agree.
NM I've known sick people who have been bombarded with that sort of talk, virtually on death bed.
One was a lovely Christian lady in her eighties who was diabetic, had cancer and Parkinson's. She was dying and what was marvellous about her was the fact that she bore it cheerfully (most of the time), despite being timid and disliking hospitals, etc, she was deaf too which made it all more difficult.
She made the most of what she had left.
A woman from her church came along and preached at her, telling her God would take it all away. It was extremely upsetting for her.
We are all going to be ill, have accidents and eventually die!!! That's a fact. Thank goodness for it too, who wants to live forever (to quote Fred)? It's how we deal with problems that counts.
Nick, go on as much as you like about signs and wonders but leave the sick alone please.
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Not only that, Brownie, but the greatest of the early apostles - Paul - was ailing. Whether one accepts the 'thorn in the flesh' as physical or not, there is also ample evidence in both Acts and Paul's letters that he was losing his sight - and toward the end of his life was, for all intents and purposes, virtually blind. So much for NM's argument, then.
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You are quite right, Anchor.
We all know that certain things (habits etc) contribute to ill health and that, very often, psychiatric conditions come about or are at least exacerbated by 'baggage' carried around and all that has to be dealt with, but at the end of the day, sick people are sick and everyone dies.
I don't like talking about personal things but I do have experience of some of this so know what I am talking about.
Faith in the Lord is wonderful but help to cope with our problems is what I always ask for. I might ask God to take something away, of course, and of course he could, but I'm a human being who has a limited life span and what I do with that is more important than how long it is.
Thank you, Anchor.
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Sassy/Floo...
No arguments there Sassy. But we should be guided by the fact that neither Almighty God or Jesus are responsible for the way things are and repentance is about reclaiming life in the way Jesus showed us.
If our health is faulty or our circumstances, it is because we are in sin. That can be genetic sin or at the hand of evil, or at our own hands...and Jesus taught us how to shake off those sins. Not in an instant but progressively, in a slow and careful way, whilst supported by God's living waters which supplies the emotional strength and support required leading ultimately to everlasting life...don't be fooled by iniquity. This is achievable only by following Jesus righteously and accurately.
It isn't always so, Nick,
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Sickness and all that goes with it, is from Satan. God does not want to see anyone suffer.
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Life in Christ, I personally find repentance is knowing who Jesus is and what he did for us all.
We repent of our sins resolved to walk in the light and knowledge of Jesus Christ so coming to know God.
The more we remove sin the close our walk and relationship with God develops. The more our relationship develops the less we want to sin and the more we recognise sin in our life and it becomes grevious to us.
It is a complete sacrifice so no need to sacrifice the LORD over and over again. A sacrifice which covers all sins when we come to God through Christ because Christ died for ALL sin. The sins of the world so we can know and love God and each other.
In our heavenly Fathers Kingdom, there is no least or no greater, we are all loved by God and held in the palm of his hand.r
It isn't about what others think of us, it is the reassurance of God knowing and loving us that makes our walk with him count.
Paul said: " For me to live is Christ, to die is gain." He didn't mean just being alive here he meant being alive in Christ and dying to self here. In Christ he was made alive and the old person died.His gain is knowing Christ and walking in Gods way till it was time to be with the Lord Jesus and the LORD God.
We, that is each of us need to stop looking in the mirror and seeing what we think we are. But look in the mirror of love and see ourselves as God sees us. Restored, healed, forgiven and loved.
It is easier to fail if we see our old self, but it makes living as a believer easier when we see ourselves as God now sees us.
Nothing we earn or can earn but Gods love and grace changing us from within looking at us through his eyes.
Sass I couldn't help noticing this post of yours?
You've written it as though you're stating facts?
Is there any particular reason why you keep doing this?
I thought your long drawn out acres of text type posts were only about your belief, surly you don't think you're making statements of fact?
ippy
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Sassy/Floo...
No arguments there Sassy. But we should be guided by the fact that neither Almighty God or Jesus are responsible for the way things are and repentance is about reclaiming life in the way Jesus showed us.
If our health is faulty or our circumstances, it is because we are in sin. That can be genetic sin or at the hand of evil, or at our own hands...and Jesus taught us how to shake off those sins. Not in an instant but progressively, in a slow and careful way, whilst supported by God's living waters which supplies the emotional strength and support required leading ultimately to everlasting life...don't be fooled by iniquity. This is achievable only by following Jesus righteously and accurately.
My previous post 213 could equally be addressed to you Nick, what is going on here?
ippy
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I am sure the 'end timers' will be having a field day over this catastrophic hurricane. They always come out in force when anything bad happens, but we are still here.
Floo you really must get up to date. The end is due between 20-23 September this year. Have you never heard of Planet X or Niribu as it is usually called? That is when it is scheduled to strike the earth with catastrophic consequences. NASA have photographs in their possession of the planet approaching but are keeping it secret. I have read all about it on the internet. So it must be true. You only have ten days to prepare so it is urgent. I have already got my white robes out, washed and ironed and will be standing on the roof to make sure there are no obstacles to collide with on my way up. :P :P
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Sickness and all that goes with it, is from Satan. God does not want to see anyone suffer.
That doesn't correlate with what is in the Bible!
The frankly my dear, you have never read the bible.
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Repent the end is nigh is very poignant message to us all today.Never before has the world been in such turmoil with the expectancy of far worse to come. It's all dependant on whether we have a righteous spirit or not when Wormwood strikes and when the fiery lake of sulphur presents itself and that could be quite soon if we follow the signs.
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Repent the end is nigh is very poignant message to us all today.Never before has the world been in such turmoil with the expectancy of far worse to come. It's all dependant on whether we have a righteous spirit or not when Wormwood strikes and when the fiery lake of sulphur presents itself and that could be quite soon if we follow the signs.
Is that Sparklian for 'reduce your carbon footprint and give up eating meat' ?
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Repent the end is nigh is very poignant message to us all today.Never before has the world been in such turmoil with the expectancy of far worse to come. It's all dependant on whether we have a righteous spirit or not when Wormwood strikes and when the fiery lake of sulphur presents itself and that could be quite soon if we follow the signs.
Will that be 'soon' Nick?
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Floo/Seb/torridon...
Thankyou Floo, though highlighting the facts that most of your scientists are sitting on and which many governments are preparing for, in front of your very eyes, without you having any comprehension of, doesn't really count as light relief.
You see Seb...everything that is happening in the world today equates down to a rogue solar system that is entering our own solar space, and along with frantic measures for survival of the (un)fittest it seems that we, ourselves, will be preoccupied with wars and rumours of wars...still, each to their own...especially if a spiritual eternity within one of these rogue, planetary bodies, turns you on...so be it.
You must remember torri that carbon is made from a wonderful electric plasma wrapped around a tiny black-hole, and as such, will dissolve back to its plasma state, along with all the other elements that aren't secured to the earth...which is a good job because the fiery lake of sulphur will then rid us of distressed electric plasma patterns including nuclear waste and those who refuse to repent.
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;D
Sorry Floo...I forgot, you have absolute proof that the universe isn't created by a superabundant, electric plasma, that responds to the influences upon it in exactly the same way that all chemists and all physicists must come to accept. It's a shame, but Almighty God owns it all, and he has given us all the clues written throughout his teaching and moresome, because through the Gospels we know that this indestructible property can deliver repair, resurrection, and ultimately, everlasting life, for those who take righteousness seriously.
I'm here to save, not condemn, but it can be a hard struggle. Jesus Christ has all the answers...but...as you say at the outset...we must repent...asap...because the end is nigh.
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Assertions, assertions, with nothing to support them. ::) You are entitled to believe in your god created accurate, electrical universe if that turns you on. However, those of us who don't see it your way are just as entitled to hold the default position of unbelief, until there is verifiable evidence to prove us wrong.
There is a subtle difference Floo...my source of information tells me what will happen in the future...a future that is justified by what has happened in the past. If we are made from an electric plasma that is generated from within the living-cell, then we have to be careful what we do with our body of living-cells, else they will go hostile on us and make our lives a misery. Jesus Christ, and only Jesus Christ has the true answer which begins with treating our electric plasma as if it is a righteous spirit and thereby get some relief from the pains we otherwise condemn ourselves to by ignoring Jesus and his righteous teaching. Of course, this is just scratching the surface...but it all starts with repentance...remember?
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Floo/Seb/torridon...
You see Seb...everything that is happening in the world today equates down to a rogue solar system that is entering our own solar space,
Where?
How far away?
In what direction?
Then I will turn my telescope towards it to see if I can spot it.
Simples?
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Where?
How far away?
In what direction?
Then I will turn my telescope towards it to see if I can spot it.
Simples?
There are a multiple of researchers already doing it for you Seb. Try YouTube if you are interested. My reasoning comes mainly from the Holy Bible which states clearly, what, when, and how.
What....Wormwood and the fiery lake of sulphur.
When...When we least expect it.
How.....In such a way as will dissolve all the elements.
Clues...We will hear about wars and rumours of wars.
There will be food shortages and earthquakes in diverse places.
There will be virtually a total disbelief in Almighty God and Jesus Christ.
So...why the rich and the uncaring are running for their bunkers we, the majority will be left exposed to the elements, though the wise will have repented before, (to quote Floo) the end is nigh.
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You see Seb...everything that is happening in the world today equates down to a rogue solar system that is entering our own solar space, and along with frantic measures for survival of the (un)fittest it seems that we, ourselves, will be preoccupied with wars and rumours of wars...still, each to their own...especially if a spiritual eternity within one of these rogue, planetary bodies, turns you on...so be it.
You must remember torri that carbon is made from a wonderful electric plasma wrapped around a tiny black-hole, and as such, will dissolve back to its plasma state, along with all the other elements that aren't secured to the earth...which is a good job because the fiery lake of sulphur will then rid us of distressed electric plasma patterns including nuclear waste and those who refuse to repent.
Gloriously bonkers :D ;D
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And your source of information is? BTW what are your scientific qualifications?
Going round in circles wont help you escape scientific truth, Floo. It is all in the Holy Bible...Almighty God created the universe from his vast dynamic energy and awe inspiring power, or, if you prefer, his great power and mighty strength, (Isaiah 40:26). You might expect then that this material has a terrific impact on all our lives and if you can't believe the 'word' made flesh, the son of Almighty God, Jesus Christ, then I'm afraid the natural consequences, of a natural, but devastating event, foretold in many verses of the Holy Bible, but especially in Revelation, then you simply won't be ready in time. But worse than this...your eternal spirit will be imprisoned with all those evicted from this planet, the hoods, the scammers, the deceitful and all the rest of them identified in Revelation 21:8...for all eternity.
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Gloriously bonkers :D ;D
Me, torri, or the Holy Bible, which is my source of information, and which millions upon millions have found to be a refreshing source of truth, because the science really does work.
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This is next week isn't it? Good thing the government is prepared, otherwise it could end up being worse than brexit!
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There are a multiple of researchers already doing it for you Seb. Try YouTube if you are interested.
I have. No two agree on where it is.
Have you researched it?
Where is it?
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I have. No two agree on where it is.
Have you researched it?
Where is it?
I have certainly taken images of strange planet type objects around our sun over a period, and I have also noticed the strange aspect of our sun as well...I have also seen the intense chemtrails that are being spewed out above us and timed to block the sun at sunrise and sunset, and, it seems, all over the world, without any explanation and with, what seems to be, a complete lack of health concern. So...I reckon, unless we find the health content written into the Holy Bible...one or other of these many threats, (great tribulations) are going to get us, one way or another...well before the ultimate Biblical threat gets here.
Time to repent don't you think, Seb. That's much more important than knowing the time or the date that no man knoweth except the father...who is in Heaven.
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In other words, you make it up as you go along, and you have no scientific qualifications. ::)
In other words I have the Holy Bible to guide me and I have found great substance in the teaching of Jesus Christ who died to prove the value of righteousness and the power of a righteous spirit in that being indestructible, he was resurrected, and, no excuses Floo...It's your only way to salvation. Not because God's direct hand will save you, but it's God's science that will...courtesy of God's 'word'...made flesh...Jesus Christ.
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But to give credit where credit is due, you certainly liven up this forum. ;D
That is because you know what I am telling you is the truth and it appeals to your deep seated desire to be saved.
Much of the Bible should be take with a whole dispenser of salt, especially when it can be interpreted in a great many ways depending on the creative aspect of the human imagination. I must say your interpretation is more way out than many!
Here is your first mistake...If you read it as it is intended, that is righteously, you find that there is a deep rooted science seated within its teaching. Science knows that everything is made out of this electric plasma they just can't configure it in the way it explains everything...but they, like you, don't want to recognise the owner of the universe or his much loved son, Jesus Christ. That's their big mistake, not mine.
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You want to believe you are telling your version of the 'truth', but to me it makes no sense at all.
I don't possess your overactive imagination when reading the Bible. ;D
It's best to start by reading the Gospels. There we find that there is an invisible, superabundant material, which is the raw material behind everything...but it can be fashioned and shaped. It produced galaxies, stars, and atoms, in that order, and Almighty God is the living personification, a living limb, the living voice, of all that raw material...and via his 'word' he gives it form and shape and science...remember that in the beginning was the 'word' and Jesus is that science made flesh.
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There is a subtle difference Floo...my source of information tells me what will happen in the future...
Is that source of information supposed to be the Bible, by any chance? Because that same Bible tells me that Jesus and Paul thought all these things would happen in the lifetimes of some of the people they were speaking to. They seem to have been mistaken.
I'm bloody sure you are....
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I have certainly taken images of strange planet type objects around our sun over a period,
You have?
What equipment did you use?
Do you still have the photographs?
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and I have also noticed the strange aspect of our sun as well...
What strange aspect?
Could you describe this statement further?
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You see Seb...everything that is happening in the world today equates down to a rogue solar system that is entering our own solar space, .
How does 'everything' happening in the world today equate to this rogue solar system?
'Everything', really?
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I have also seen the intense chemtrails that are being spewed out above us and timed to block the sun at sunrise and sunset, and, it seems, all over the world, without any explanation and with, what seems to be, a complete lack of health concern.
A chem-trail blocking the sun at sunrise and sunset - all over the world - would be some feat.
What is producing these chem-trails and ho do you know that they are blocking the sun - all over the world - given that you can only be in one place at one time?
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A chem-trail blocking the sun at sunrise and sunset - all over the world - would be some feat.
What is producing these chem-trails and ho do you know that they are blocking the sun - all over the world - given that you can only be in one place at one time?
Oh dear Seb, have you been continually sleeping over the past few years and missed all the flyovers of high altitude planes spreading thick dark and light trails which accumulate into artificial clouds, sometimes as many as ten of these toxic air-planes in the sky at one time going round and round emptying their poisonous payloads then coming back to discharge more. There has been an uproar on the net but the authorities are keeping quiet about it, as are the media, which tells its own tale. Still, observers from all around the world have been complaining about it...mainly to each other because no one is listening...that includes observations made by serious scientific studies which condemn it.
The sun's uv levels are going very high and current researchers are saying that it is in a state of great distress with huge coronal holes forming and spitting out nasty high energy projections, cme's (coronal mass ejections) and threatening our magnetosphere with high levels of powerful radiation. Still...if you prefer to sleep then these things which are creeping up on us and which only the Holy Bible gives us prior warning of, and which indicate that that rogue star system, directly implied by Revelation, is closer than we might think, which leads us to the conclusion that those who are alert and looking out for these things will have a better chance of survival...especially if armed with the righteous teaching of Jesus Christ that repentance urges us to take on board.
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Oh dear Seb, have you been continually sleeping over the past few years and missed all the flyovers of high altitude planes spreading thick dark and light trails which accumulate into artificial clouds, sometimes as many as ten of these toxic air-planes in the sky at one time going round and round emptying their poisonous payloads then coming back to discharge more.
Well Nick. I do weather and cloud observations and have done for many years, not just the last few. And have not seen any evidence of any such goings on.
When and where did you see this happening?
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.....that includes observations made by serious scientific studies which condemn it.
Evidence please. Or I'm calling bullshit.
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The sun's uv levels are going very high and current researchers are saying that it is in a state of great distress
And those researchers are who specifically?
Who are they doing the research for?
You must know otherwise you wouldn't make a false statement about them would you?
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Thanks for this amusing post, which will have me giggling now I am about to switch off my computer for the day.
Oh Floo...I can talk to you equally with your computer switched off as when it is switched on because your simply not prepared to listen. That is a symptom of other things which many people are suffering from because they are over loaded with all the media tripe that is so easy to listen to but has a very damaging effect on our alertness, our brain power, and our health. Just think...the entire problems of the NHS, as published in the news today, cleared in a day, because everyone decided to follow Jesus accurately, instead of jungle celebs and false prophets, who think there is going to be no Judgment...even when it is virtually knocking on our door. It is stress, confusion, and disobedience to righteousness that starts us all on that sinful slope of ill-health.
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Well Nick. I do weather and cloud observations and have done for many years, not just the last few. And have not seen any evidence of any such goings on.
When and where did you see this happening?
I know you haven't Seb...not in a meaningful way anyway because at times it has been atrocious...so you are in denial or else just contributing to the whole contrived mess...I prefer to think you have a serious eye-strain.
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Evidence please. Or I'm calling bullshit.
I don't have to do your research for you Seb. I have warned you of a terrible dilemma...its up to you to ignore it or research it. Staying asleep won't be on option soon.
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And those researchers are who specifically?
Who are they doing the research for?
You must know otherwise you wouldn't make a false statement about them would you?
Been here before haven't we Seb. I warn you...give you proof from the Holy Bible of this time of great deceit and you just go round and round in circles denying what is blatantly obvious. You don't have to be saved Seb...but at least you have been warned of the impending dangers.
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Been here before haven't we Seb. I warn you...give you proof from the Holy Bible of this time of great deceit and you just go round and round in circles denying what is blatantly obvious. You don't have to be saved Seb...but at least you have been warned of the impending dangers.
We have been here before Nick.
It goes like this;
You make a statement eg
The sun's uv levels are going very high and current researchers are saying that it is in a state of great distress
I inquire as to the validity of the statement eg
And those researchers are who specifically?
Who are they doing the research for?
You must know otherwise you wouldn't make a false statement about them would you?
You avoid the request and ramble off on one of your pet 'warnings'.
In other words, the 'circles' could be broken if you didn't start them in the first place.
So I am calling bulllshit once more.
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I know you haven't Seb...not in a meaningful way anyway because at times it has been atrocious...so you are in denial or else just contributing to the whole contrived mess...I prefer to think you have a serious eye-strain.
I'm not in denial Nick, you are.
Show me when and where it has been atrocious.
You wont because you cannot.
You will however start another circular discussion but not, absolutely will not put up one single solitary piece of believable, non-conspiracy nutter, evidence.
Over to you to break the circle, if you can.
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I warn you...give you proof from the Holy Bible
Now lets try it your way.
There are many experts, who will show that your 'proof' is in fact horse shit.
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We have been here before Nick.
It goes like this;
You make a statement eg
I inquire as to the validity of the statement eg
You avoid the request and ramble off on one of your pet 'warnings'.
In other words, the 'circles' could be broken if you didn't start them in the first place.
So I am calling bulllshit once more.
You know where the evidence lies Seb you've just got to be prepared to look for it...as I have done. Then you can call it what you like but do it soon because Wormwood is already causing serious hurricanes and earthquakes...but perhaps you haven't heard of these either, or else think its just...er...well...an act of God.
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I don't have to do your research for you Seb.
But you must have done the research yourself Nick. Otherwise you wouldn't have made the statements. Would you?
All I am asking is that you share it.
Why won't you do that?
Is it because it doesn't exist?
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You know where the evidence lies Seb you've just got to be prepared to look for it...as I have done. Then you can call it what you like but do it soon because Wormwood is already causing serious hurricanes and earthquakes...but perhaps you haven't heard of these either, or else think its just...er...well...an act of God.
In order for Wormwood to cause those things you would need to know where it is, what its mass is what direction it is traveling in , just for starters.
Show me that you know those in order to establish your claim.
You wont because you cannot.
Bullshit yet again.
....unless you can prove me wrong?
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But you must have done the research yourself Nick. Otherwise you wouldn't have made the statements. Would you?
All I am asking is that you share it.
Why won't you do that?
Is it because it doesn't exist?
Well Seb...I have the proof that the Holy Bible exists where most of my support comes from...do you want me to read you chapter and verse of this to satisfy your lack of ability in researching things for yourself.
Perhaps you've got a 'get into the bunker free' card, over in America where they have been feverishly putting the finishing touches to their escape hatches knowing that there is going to be some great global upheaval...Me...I will simply put my faith in Jesus Christ and hope for the best...which is an option open to all who listen and take in his accurate, righteous teaching.
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I have the proof that the Holy Bible exists where most of my support comes from...do you want me to read you chapter and verse of this to satisfy your lack of ability in researching things for yourself.
No Nick, all I did was ask a simple question.
A question which should have been easy to answer from someone who, if they were honest in their statements, would easily and more poignantly, willingly have provided a suitable response.
You didn't.
I rest my case.
Observers will draw their own conclusions from your behaviour as to whether you should be believed or not.
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The documents making up the Bible exist, but you have no evidence they have any credibility.
That is precisely what I intend to prove Floo...showing that it is a book which is just at home in the 21st century as it was in the first, more so, in fact...but, of course it takes time, and a willing ear...not just a blatant, mental block, because of an iniquitous relative...influenced by a false teaching.
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The sun's uv levels are going very high and current researchers are saying that it is in a state of great distress with huge coronal holes forming and spitting out nasty high energy projections, cme's (coronal mass ejections) and threatening our magnetosphere with high levels of powerful radiation. Still...if you prefer to sleep then these things which are creeping up on us and which only the Holy Bible gives us prior warning of, and which indicate that that rogue star system, directly implied by Revelation, is closer than we might think, which leads us to the conclusion that those who are alert and looking out for these things will have a better chance of survival...especially if armed with the righteous teaching of Jesus Christ that repentance urges us to take on board.
Solar UV levels vary on an 11 year cycle, and always have done so as far as we are aware, This means that our star is a variable star, although its variability is tiny (0.1%) compared to most stars classed as variable.
There is no rogue star system near Earth, if there were if would be obvious to all, never mind astronomers. We are due for a galactic collision with Andromeda in four billion years but even then there will unlikely be any destructive impact.
I think we have enough real problems to worry about, thanks.
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No Nick, all I did was ask a simple question.
A question which should have been easy to answer from someone who, if they were honest in their statements, would easily and more poignantly, willingly have provided a suitable response.
You didn't.
I rest my case.
Observers will draw their own conclusions from your behaviour as to whether you should be believed or not.
Just for you Seb..but I could write your response for you...that is if you bother watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0CFlGZapn4&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=_wGXUkS0-4S9uMg5-6
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Just for you Seb..but I could write your response for you...that is if you bother watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0CFlGZapn4&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=_wGXUkS0-4S9uMg5-6
Nick. You seem to be very confused.
My question was about the people you referred to regarding chemtrails.
You have linked to a video about astrology highlighting stuff in Revelation.
Astrology Nick?
Really?
Need I remind you about the accurate teaching in the Bible?
The very thing which you claim to be an expert in!
Anyway in case you were off that day in Bible class.....
Isaiah 47:13-15 NIV. "All the counsel you have received has only worn you out. Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the flame… Each of them goes on in his error; there is not one that can save you."
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Just for you Seb..but I could write your response for you...that is if you bother watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0CFlGZapn4&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=_wGXUkS0-4S9uMg5-6
Nick I wondered if you've managed to get in touch with 'Top Notch Signs' yet, and don't forget if you add the overhead one attached to the usual A boards you need to watch out for overhead shop signs and better just have the old A boards on their own when it's windy outside.
ippy
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Oh dear Seb, have you been continually sleeping over the past few years and missed all the flyovers of high altitude planes spreading thick dark and light trails which accumulate into artificial clouds, sometimes as many as ten of these toxic air-planes in the sky at one time going round and round emptying their poisonous payloads then coming back to discharge more. There has been an uproar on the net but the authorities are keeping quiet about it, as are the media, which tells its own tale. Still, observers from all around the world have been complaining about it...mainly to each other because no one is listening...that includes observations made by serious scientific studies which condemn it.
The sun's uv levels are going very high and current researchers are saying that it is in a state of great distress with huge coronal holes forming and spitting out nasty high energy projections, cme's (coronal mass ejections) and threatening our magnetosphere with high levels of powerful radiation. Still...if you prefer to sleep then these things which are creeping up on us and which only the Holy Bible gives us prior warning of, and which indicate that that rogue star system, directly implied by Revelation, is closer than we might think, which leads us to the conclusion that those who are alert and looking out for these things will have a better chance of survival...especially if armed with the righteous teaching of Jesus Christ that repentance urges us to take on board.
Nicholas, I'm with you on the chemtrailing. Something is definitely going on in our skies, I've been monitoring it for 2 years. To ignore the grid patterns and trails that billow out into clouds would be denial. September 23rd is doing the rounds again because of the planetary alignment on that day but remember there were similar signs in the sky in AD70.
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Nicholas, I'm with you on the chemtrailing. Something is definitely going on in our skies, I've been monitoring it for 2 years. To ignore the grid patterns and trails that billow out into clouds would be denial.
From your two years of monitoring;
Is it commercial or military aicraft that you are monitoring?
What type of clouds are being formed?
How many aircraft are required to form the clouds?
What time of day are they chemtrailing?
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From your two years of monitoring;
Is it commercial or military aicraft that you are monitoring?
What type of clouds are being formed?
How many aircraft are required to form the clouds?
What time of day are they chemtrailing?
Yesterday I saw 3 aircraft in my sky all at the same time (3.00 pm)releasing these toxic plumes but the evidence suggested they had been at it for some time.
I enclose a very recent copy of a youtube video which shows what is being hidden and the lengths they will go to to deceive us...Who are they??...well...we'll call them Satan and his cronies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CEBbX-zGiY&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=bvfVR10c1Tjuvh72-6
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Nicholas, I'm with you on the chemtrailing. Something is definitely going on in our skies, I've been monitoring it for 2 years. To ignore the grid patterns and trails that billow out into clouds would be denial. September 23rd is doing the rounds again because of the planetary alignment on that day but remember there were similar signs in the sky in AD70.
Hi SweetPea...nice to hear from you again. Yes...its all very concerning...especially as the weather anomalies and die-offs of multiple animals are so frequent. I sympathise with those who suffer from asthma and bronchitis but it all makes Almighty God's impending Judgment all the more urgent.
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BONKERS!
This ones for you Floo...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyDUPO4ht-I
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We have quite a number of planes flying passed our home on a daily basis, including military aircraft. I have never ever seen these horror movie 'chem trails' just the normal ones.
Thats because you aren't looking very carefully or perhaps they aren't doing it too close to their home-base but the whole world is seeing them. So...in this instance Floo, you are outnumbered by a huge majority.
Now...I've never seen, with my own eyes these multiple die-offs, but I believe what many observers are reporting...The obvious question to ask is...Why is it all being played down ??...well, I think I know why??
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Thats because you aren't looking very carefully or perhaps they aren't doing it too close to their home-base but the whole world is seeing them. So...in this instance Floo, you are outnumbered by a huge majority.
Now...I've never seen, with my own eyes these multiple die-offs, but I believe what many observers are reporting...The obvious question to ask is...Why is it all being played down ??...well, I think I know why??
Jesus H Christ!!!!!
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Yesterday I saw 3 aircraft in my sky all at the same time (3.00 pm)releasing these toxic plumes but the evidence suggested they had been at it for some time.
Pity you didn't manage to take some photos or video! You could have posted it on youtube.
Camera broken?
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So when it comes down to it you haven't seen them either! ::)
You will have to define what I haven't seen Floo. I've seen hundreds of chemstrails being made. I haven't seen, first-hand, the animal die-offs, but I've seen many videos on the matter, from all around the world...I could even guide you to a few but I'm not convinced you are interested. Now...the bees dying off are the one which could well be caused by these toxins...there all sorts of sea-creatures...whole flocks of birds...just as the Holy Bible describes really...only the same source indicates it will get much worse.
Now...here is a clue, using righteousness, as Jesus taught us...if we follow his teaching, accurately, besides having a powerful spirit to be resurrected by, we will also induce a chemistry which science is totally oblivious to but will make us more resilient to what is coming....mainly because repentance starts to unravel the internal confusion that are genetics are otherwise unable to withstand...and there is more...much more.
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NM to pretend toxins and chem trails are portrayed in the Bible is not true!
There is no evidence Jesus was resurrected.
but there is evidence that NM is a plant!
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NM to pretend toxins and chem trails are portrayed in the Bible is not true!
There is no evidence Jesus was resurrected.
The evidence is presented by the millions who have followed him ever since Floo...mainly because nicer people want to believe that they too can be saved and because the wrath of Satan's world is somewhat biased against them. The die-offs are certainly mentioned in the Holy Bible and the deceit of mankind at this time of the 'last days'...plus the many tribulations that will accompany it all...bit like a pregnant woman whose labour pains are getting progressively worse...now where have I read that before...Oh, and don't forget the wars and rumours of wars, the earthquakes and food shortages in diverse places, or the seas roaring with a terrible rage...or indeed the many cooling their interest in the righteous teaching of Jesus...not to mention the perplexity of nations, not knowing the way out.
Now is the time to repent if ever there was one. But you know whether being an electrical bubble inside a fiery lake of sulphur is your preference against eternal life in health, happiness, good will, good order for all eternity...The Bible (ball) is in your court.
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remember there were similar signs in the sky in AD70.
I really don't think so. For one thing, there were no aircraft in them days.
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Yesterday I saw 3 aircraft in my sky all at the same time (3.00 pm)releasing these toxic plumes but the evidence suggested they had been at it for some time.
Water vapour is not toxic.
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Nicholas, I'm with you on the chemtrailing. Something is definitely going on in our skies, I've been monitoring it for 2 years. To ignore the grid patterns and trails that billow out into clouds would be denial. September 23rd is doing the rounds again because of the planetary alignment on that day but remember there were similar signs in the sky in AD70.
Nobody denies that contrails exist. There is no evidence these are anything other than water vapour.
Sadly I think you've been worrying over nothing for the last 2 years
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Nicholas, I'm with you on the chemtrailing. Something is definitely going on in our skies, I've been monitoring it for 2 years. To ignore the grid patterns and trails that billow out into clouds would be denial. September 23rd is doing the rounds again because of the planetary alignment on that day but remember there were similar signs in the sky in AD70.
when you say 'monitoring' what method do you use?
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You will have to define what I haven't seen Floo. I've seen hundreds of chemstrails being made. I haven't seen, first-hand,
Well Nick, using your scientific expertise, does that not tell you the the hundreds of chemtrails that you witnessed were really only water vapour which cause no damage?
Otherwise hundreds of 'real' chemtrails would surely have resulted in some damaging evidence locally, wouldn't they?
Still no photos?
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I have probably read it many more times than you. I just don't put your particular odd ball spin on it.
If it was about a spin and a ball... yours would be a brick.
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And what would yours be? ;D
You would never be able to recognise it... TRUTH. ::)