Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Pagan Topic => Topic started by: Owlswing on September 24, 2016, 10:39:15 AM
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Apart from the deity involved is there any difference between a witch's spell and a Christian prayer? i e - a witch casts a spell to heal a friend and calls upon Brigid (pronounced Breed) for her assistance - a Christian says a prayer asking God for his help in the healing.
Is there really any fundamental difference between the two?
I will admit to there being an equal chance that neither deity will choose to provide the requested help.
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Apart from the deity involved is there any difference between a witch's spell and a Christian prayer? i e - a witch casts a spell to heal a friend and calls upon Brigid (pronounced Breed) for her assistance - a Christian says a prayer asking God for his help in the healing.
Is there really any fundamental difference between the two?
I will admit to there being an equal chance that neither deity will choose to provide the requested help.
As you say, they both look the same.
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I guess if Witch/Pagan spell worked then there would be no Christians required to pray.
Not heard of any miraculous outcome when they cast their spells.
But Jesus Christ healed and did miracles and his followers do it in his name.
I believe the present Christian faith speaks for itself. We are still waiting for the Witch/Pagan to show us something.
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Psychologically no. Both are a function of the Unconscious.
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Psychologically no. Both are a function of the Unconscious.
In everyday English, please, Jack; especially the second sentence.
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I guess if Witch/Pagan spell worked then there would be no Christians required to pray.
Where did I say that the Witch/Pagan and the Christian were praying for ther same thing or for the same person?
Not heard of any miraculous outcome when they cast their spells.
Of course not - you wouldn't listen if someone told you about it. Pagans/Witches do not, like Christians, need to trumpet there successes to the public. We are also, within our community, willing to admit that, while we are convinced that the deity hears all spells, somethimes the answer is no.
But Jesus Christ healed and did miracles and his followers do it in his name.
I believe the present Christian faith speaks for itself. We are still waiting for the Witch/Pagan to show us something.
And we Witches and Pagans are still waiting for you Christians to provide proof that Christ rose from the dead. You provide that, and we do not mean reams and reams of emboldened quotes from the Book of Two Thousand Years of Chinese Whispers, and we will provide proof that spells work as well as prayer.
Quite apart from which, of course, I did not ask if they (prayers) worked and neither did I say that spells do - I asked what the difference is between the act of spell-casting or offering a prayer apart from the diety/deities involved.
Your response is, to me anyway, a confirmation of my suspicion that there is, at base, no difference at all between the two.
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This thread demonstrates ad state of this forum.
46 vierws (as at the time of posting) and only four responses. What are the views of the other 42 viewers? And why have they not posted them? Even if only to ask "Who cares?"
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This thread demonstrates ad state of this forum.
46 vierws (as at the time of posting) and only four responses. What are the views of the other 42 viewers? And why have they not posted them? Even if only to ask "Who cares?"
Possibly because that would be fairly pointless and needlessly rude. Possibly because some of the other posts were enough. From my own point of view, BeRational said all I would have wanted.
The number of replies on a single thread is indicative of nothing. When we averaged 400 - 500 posts a day, there were still threads that could get 1 reply and 100 views.
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Possibly because that would be fairly pointless and needlessly rude. Possibly because some of the other posts were enough. From my own point of view, BeRational said all I would have wanted.
The number of replies on a single thread is indicative of nothing. When we averaged 400 - 500 posts a day, there were still threads that could get 1 reply and 100 views.
Fair enough
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This thread demonstrates ad state of this forum.
46 vierws (as at the time of posting) and only four responses. What are the views of the other 42 viewers? And why have they not posted them? Even if only to ask "Who cares?"
I'msorry, I didn't know it was compulsory to respond to your threads.
Anyway, if it makes you feel any better, a 10/1 view/response ratio is about the norm for this forum.
And the answer to your question in my opinion is no because neither the goddess Brigid nor the Christian god answer prayers at all - being fictional and all.
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Where did I say that the Witch/Pagan and the Christian were praying for ther same thing or for the same person?
I have no idea what you are talking about, I simply wrote:-
I guess if Witch/Pagan spell worked then there would be no Christians required to pray.
Not heard of any miraculous outcome when they cast their spells.
But Jesus Christ healed and did miracles and his followers do it in his name.
I believe the present Christian faith speaks for itself. We are still waiting for the Witch/Pagan to show us something.
Why ask about something NO ONE has said anything about?
Of course not - you wouldn't listen if someone told you about it.
Would anyone be able to avoid listening?
It is best to stick with the facts... the truth that none have been known to happen.
Seems like a case of bad eggs.
Pagans/Witches do not, like Christians, need to trumpet there successes to the public.
Whilst the simple truth is they have had no successes. Christians do not have success their God does.
We are also, within our community, willing to admit that, while we are convinced that the deity hears all spells, somethimes the answer is no.
The pagan god of power, he like to say NO.
Whilst all the answers to Gods promises through Christ is 'yes'.
Does that mean that one exists and the other doesn't?
And we Witches and Pagans are still waiting for you Christians to provide proof that Christ rose from the dead. You provide that, and we do not mean reams and reams of emboldened quotes from the Book of Two Thousand Years of Chinese Whispers, and we will provide proof that spells work as well as prayer.
You admit our prayers get answered? You say prove Christ rose from the dead.
You say you will provide proof that spells work? Are you really aware that the prayers get answered because the writer and author of the words in the bible does as he promised?
You cannot say you will win something after you have already lost.
What would a spell working really prove? When in truth if it did we would already know.
Quite apart from which, of course, I did not ask if they (prayers) worked and neither did I say that spells do - I asked what the difference is between the act of spell-casting or offering a prayer apart from the diety/deities involved.
You wrote:-
Apart from the deity involved is there any difference between a witch's spell and a Christian prayer? i e - a witch casts a spell to heal a friend and calls upon Brigid (pronounced Breed) for her assistance - a Christian says a prayer asking God for his help in the healing.
Is there really any fundamental difference between the two?
I will admit to there being an equal chance that neither deity will choose to provide the requested help.
The obvious difference is prayers do get answered. Spells do nothing.
Your response is, to me anyway, a confirmation of my suspicion that there is, at base, no difference at all between the two.
Your spells not working makes a big difference to the truth that your power is non existence but Gods power is. If you think I missed something...which I don't think I did then let us know. But the reality is you are bound to think there is no difference if you never experience anything and deny the reality of prayers being answered by God.
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This thread demonstrates ad state of this forum.
46 vierws (as at the time of posting) and only four responses. What are the views of the other 42 viewers? And why have they not posted them? Even if only to ask "Who cares?"
Perhaps they weren't born with a silver wand in their hand... ;)
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I'm sorry, I didn't know it was compulsory to respond to your threads.
Anyway, if it makes you feel any better, a 10/1 view/response ratio is about the norm for this forum.
This comment was a tad unnecessary if you read #7 and #8.
[quore]
And the answer to your question in my opinion is no because neither the goddess Brigid nor the Christian god answer prayers at all - being fictional and all.
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However this comment is gratefully received. Thank you.
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I have no idea what you are talking about, I simply wrote:-
Why ask about something NO ONE has said anything about?
Would anyone be able to avoid listening?
It is best to stick with the facts... the truth that none have been known to happen.
Seems like a case of bad eggs.
Whilst the simple truth is they have had no successes. Christians do not have success their God does.
The pagan god of power, he like to say NO.
Whilst all the answers to Gods promises through Christ is 'yes'.
Does that mean that one exists and the other doesn't?
You admit our prayers get answered? You say prove Christ rose from the dead.
You say you will provide proof that spells work? Are you really aware that the prayers get answered because the writer and author of the words in the bible does as he promised?
You cannot say you will win something after you have already lost.
What would a spell working really prove? When in truth if it did we would already know.
You wrote:-
The obvious difference is prayers do get answered. Spells do nothing.
Your spells not working makes a big difference to the truth that your power is non existence but Gods power is. If you think I missed something...which I don't think I did then let us know. But the reality is you are bound to think there is no difference if you never experience anything and deny the reality of prayers being answered by God.
Again you have answered a question that I did not ask!
Let me put it more simply!
What is the difference between a Christian in church service saying:
"Dear God, I/we humbly ask that you give Mr/Mrs X relief from the pain of the cancer from which she is suffering. Amen"
. . . and a Pagan/Witch in ritual circle saying:
Goddess Brigid, we request that you use your power of healing to lessen the pain that Mr/Mrs X is suffering due to the cancer that she has."
Now will you please answer the question that is being asked, as both the Christian and the Pagan/Witch have the same expectation that their deity will do as they ask.
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Again you have answered a question that I did not ask!
Let me put it more simply!
What is the difference between a Christian in church service saying:
"Dear God, I/we humbly ask that you give Mr/Mrs X relief from the pain of the cancer from which she is suffering. Amen"
. . . and a Pagan/Witch in ritual circle saying:
Goddess Brigid, we request that you use your power of healing to lessen the pain that Mr/Mrs X is suffering due to the cancer that she has."
Now will you please answer the question that is being asked, as both the Christian and the Pagan/Witch have the same expectation that their deity will do as they ask.
You asked and I quote:
Posted by: Owlswing
« on: September 24, 2016, 10:39:15 AM » Insert Quote
Apart from the deity involved is there any difference between a witch's spell and a Christian prayer? i e - a witch casts a spell to heal a friend and calls upon Brigid (pronounced Breed) for her assistance - a Christian says a prayer asking God for his help in the healing.
Is there really any fundamental difference between the two?
I will admit to there being an equal chance that neither deity will choose to provide the requested help.
The difference is that the Christian prays knowing that their God is there and even if the person does not get well they will be in paradise with Christ.
The Witch knows there is no one there to answer or make her spell work.
BIG DIFFERENCE but why as a pagan would you have needed to ask?
Doesn't your spell books tell you the answers you require? Gods book does...
The Christian has HOPE just as the story of Pandoras box says only Hope was left in the box after it was re-shut.
But the Witch never had a hope even at the beginning.
Now unless there is something else your book of spells does not give you the answer to. I trust you now know the difference.
The Christian prays with Hope and even expectation but with the sure knowledge that God has already provided for those they pray for. The Witch has no reason to hope and no hope in an answer.
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You asked and I quote:
The difference is that the Christian prays knowing that their God is there and even if the person does not get well they will be in paradise with Christ.
The Witch knows there is no one there to answer or make her spell work.
BIG DIFFERENCE but why as a pagan would you have needed to ask?
Doesn't your spell books tell you the answers you require? Gods book does...
The Christian has HOPE just as the story of Pandoras box says only Hope was left in the box after it was re-shut.
But the Witch never had a hope even at the beginning.
Now unless there is something else your book of spells does not give you the answer to. I trust you now know the difference.
The Christian prays with Hope and even expectation but with the sure knowledge that God has already provided for those they pray for. The Witch has no reason to hope and no hope in an answer.
You are truly blind!
The Witch knows there is no one there to answer or make her spell work.
Ignoring the 'her', I KNOW that my deities are as real as yours and were there long before yours - your religion is only 2,016 years old, artifacts from mine date back to 25,000 years before the birth of Christ!
There is only one difference between the two, prayer and spell, the dieity invoked.
So long as there are blind fundamentaiists like you on the forum there can be no 'discussion' on any matter relating to religion.
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I KNOW that my deities are as real as yours...
Neither of you KNOWS anything of the kind. You just believe in them.
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Neither of you KNOWS anything of the kind. You just believe in them.
That is why I said
I KNOW that my deities are as real as yours
I have said, posting to this forum, more times than I care to count, that I consider my Pagan path to be totally a matter of FAITH! There is no way that I can prove the existence of the deities to whom I call during ritual, any more than Sassy, Vlad, Alan Burns, Hope et al can PROVE the existence of theirs.
But you try getting any one of the innumerable Christians, including but not limited to, those named above, on this forum to admit that and you might just as well try to get Tony Blair to admit that his decision to go to war in Iraq was not only wrong but criminally so!
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But you try getting any one of the innumerable Christians, including but not limited to, those named above, on this forum to admit that and you might just as well try to get Tony Blair to admit that his decision to go to war in Iraq was not only wrong but criminally so!
Good to see your assertion, Owl. Oddly enough most of the above, and others over the years this forum has been in existence, have made it clear that their faith is just that - faith. They have then gone on to state, in one way or another, that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1 AV). Put another way, this time from the New International Version, faith is "confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see". Pastor Eugene Peterson puts it this way in his 'Message' version. "The fundamental fact of existence is that this trust in God, this faith, is the firm foundation under everything that makes life worth living. It’s our handle on what we can’t see".
I think I'd go as far as to suggest that, assuming that there is a single way - as many believe there to be - failing to share what one understands to be that way is irresponsible at best.
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In everyday English, please, Jack; especially the second sentence.
Well I never, a theist asking me to speak in plain English. Perhaps you should try it with regards your Christian faith.
It is the sublimation of our instincts. You may be horrified to learn that you did not make yourself, you did not choose the body, face or dispositional attitude you have. Neither did you choose your emotional framework or even the way you think - your thoughts and ideas aren't even yours as you did not manifacture yourself. The Unconscious is the seat of our thoughts and ideas etc., and much more, and unlike your God it has a phenomenology we can observe as in dreams and mental conditions. Your God is a contrivance of the Unconscious, a pale representation of the true phenomena of our deeper natures.
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This thread demonstrates ad state of this forum.
46 vierws (as at the time of posting) and only four responses. What are the views of the other 42 viewers? And why have they not posted them? Even if only to ask "Who cares?"
That figure is most on line in the day and most of those are guests and so can't post in that format. The actual number that are signed in is often no more than around 5.
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That figure is most on line in the day and most of those are guests and so can't post in that format. The actual number that are signed in is often no more than around 5.
No, that's a separate figure. Each thread has a cumulative total of views beside it where the total responses to it are listed.
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Perhaps they weren't born with a silver wand in their hand... ;)
Or perhaps silver bells on a string!
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You are truly blind!
Ignoring the 'her', I KNOW that my deities are as real as yours and were there long before yours - your religion is only 2,016 years old, artifacts from mine date back to 25,000 years before the birth of Christ!
There is only one difference between the two, prayer and spell, the dieity invoked.
So long as there are blind fundamentaiists like you on the forum there can be no 'discussion' on any matter relating to religion.
When you don't succeed you try moving the goal post to useless arguments which are not true.
You know nothing about any deities even your own.
What is the truth is that when you don't like the answers and you cannot bring anything new to the table to disprove them... you resort to the above..
No one is blind just you trying to stir things up and having nothing but a spoon to do it with.
MY God gives answers yours simply has never had any.
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Again you have answered a question that I did not ask!
Let me put it more simply!
What is the difference between a Christian in church service saying:
"Dear God, I/we humbly ask that you give Mr/Mrs X relief from the pain of the cancer from which she is suffering. Amen"
. . . and a Pagan/Witch in ritual circle saying:
Goddess Brigid, we request that you use your power of healing to lessen the pain that Mr/Mrs X is suffering due to the cancer that she has."
Now will you please answer the question that is being asked, as both the Christian and the Pagan/Witch have the same expectation that their deity will do as they ask.
One difference I have often heard said, is that a prayer is asking God respectfully whereas a spell is more about trying to influence events yourself.
That with Christianity a successful outcome is credited to God, but with Paganism it is the caster of the spell who is powerful.
I heard that the difference is that spells are credited to the caster.
Now this may not be true, and I don't see it always is, but some magic spells, by say a witch doctor does seem to be credited to him, rather than a deity.
Paganism is difficult to generalise about because it's so varied, but I'd be interested in your response Owlswing.
Do you think spells are more egotistical than prayers?
Your OP says Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
It doesn't seem to include Pagan prayer :) unless you class a spell as a prayer.
🌹 :)
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One difference I have often heard said, is that a prayer is asking God respectfully whereas a spell is more about trying to influence events yourself.
That with Christianity a successful outcome is credited to God, but with Paganism it is the caster of the spell who is powerful.
I heard that the difference is that spells are credited to the caster.
Now this may not be true, and I don't see it always is, but some magic spells, by say a witch doctor does seem to be credited to him, rather than a deity.
Paganism is difficult to generalise about because it's so varied, but I'd be interested in your response Owlswing.
Do you think spells are more egotistical than prayers?
Your OP says Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
It doesn't seem to include Pagan prayer :) unless you class a spell as a prayer.
🌹 :)
The comparison is pointless: there is only one God who can answer prayers.
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Thor. Its Thor right?
no one, and I mean no one answers prayer like Thor. That guy is legit
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Thor. Its Thor right?
no one, and I mean no one answers prayer like Thor. That guy is legit
Thor(t) someone would say that! It's been done before - sorry, it wasn't funny then either.
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The comparison is pointless: there is only one God who can answer prayers.
But that's only your POV.
Lots of other people from other religions think their God answers prayers and they have just as much proof as you do.
How do you know it isn't actually their God being generous and answering your prayers, even though your God didn't exist?
You have no proof it isn't actually Thor answering your prayers.
Half the Christian world prays to saints or Mary.
They still think they get an answer.
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But that's only your POV.
Lots of other people from other religions think their God answers prayers and they have just as much proof as you do.
How do you know it isn't actually their God being generous and answering your prayers, even though your God didn't exist?
You have no proof it isn't actually Thor answering your prayers.
Half the Christian world prays to saints or Mary.
They still think they get an answer.
How do you know they don't get an answer? That is just your prejudice talking.
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One difference I have often heard said, is that a prayer is asking God respectfully whereas a spell is more about trying to influence events yourself.
That with Christianity a successful outcome is credited to God, but with Paganism it is the caster of the spell who is powerful.
I heard that the difference is that spells are credited to the caster.
A Christian prayer, as I see it, is the supplicant asking God to do something for them. A Witch's spell asks for a deity's help in achieving a goal, the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result. There are few witches whim I know or know of, who consider themselves to be powerful enough to do this kind of thing on their own.
The old saying that God (or a Goddess) helps those who help themselves would seem to apply. The witch knows (or most of them do) know they are cannot do it alone, and are not too proud to ask for help.
Now this may not be true, and I don't see it always is, but some magic spells, by say a witch doctor does seem to be credited to him, rather than a deity.
A "witch-doctor" has nothing in common with a modern. or even the hsitorical, witch as witches operate.
Quoted from the Wikipedia topic "Witch-Doctor"
In its original meaning, witch doctors were emphatically not witches themselves, but rather people who had remedies to protect others against witchcraft. Witchcraft-induced conditions were their area of expertise, as described in this 1858 news report from England
Recourse was had by the girl's parents to a cunning man, named Burrell, residing at Copford, who has long borne the name of "The Wizard of the North:" but her case was of so peculiar a character as to baffle his skill to dissolve the spell, Application was next made to a witch doctor named Murrell, residing at Hadleigh, Essex, who undertook to effect a cure, giving a bottle of medication, for which he did not forget to charge 3s. 6d., and promising to pay a visit on Monday evening to the "old witch," Mrs. Mole, and put an end to her subtle arts... ... the news of the expected coming of the witch-doctor spread far and wide, and about eight o'clock there could not have been less than 200 people collected near the cottage of Mrs. Mole to witness the supernatural powers of the Hadleigh wizard.
Paganism is difficult to generalise about because it's so varied, but I'd be interested in your response Owlswing.
Do you think spells are more egotistical than prayers?
No.
Your OP says Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
It doesn't seem to include Pagan prayer :) unless you class a spell as a prayer.
I do, this is the point. They are both applications to a deity, for Christians, asking it to do something for them; for pagans, asking it to assist them to do someting for themselves.
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You asked and I quote:
The difference is that the Christian prays knowing that their God is there and even if the person does not get well they will be in paradise with Christ.
The Witch knows there is no one there to answer or make her spell work.
So what you are saying is the difference is that the witch is not unbelievably arrogant.
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A Christian prayer should consist of professing your love of God; thanking Him for all His care; and lastly, asking for God's gift of care again, not merely for yourself, but for all people.
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A Christian prayer, as I see it, is the supplicant asking God to do something for them. A Witch's spell asks for a deity's help in achieving a goal, the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result. There are few witches whim I know or know of, who consider themselves to be powerful enough to do this kind of thing on their own.
The old saying that God (a a Goddess) helps those who help themselves would seem to apply. The witch knows (or most of them do) know they are cannot do it alone, and are not too proud to ask for help.
A "witch-doctor" has nothing in common with a modern. or even the hsitorical, witch as witches operate.
Quoted from the Wikipedia topic "Witch-Doctor"
In its original meaning, witch doctors were emphatically not witches themselves, but rather people who had remedies to protect others against witchcraft. Witchcraft-induced conditions were their area of expertise, as described in this 1858 news report from England
Recourse was had by the girl's parents to a cunning man, named Burrell, residing at Copford, who has long borne the name of "The Wizard of the North:" but her case was of so peculiar a character as to baffle his skill to dissolve the spell, Application was next made to a witch doctor named Murrell, residing at Hadleigh, Essex, who undertook to effect a cure, giving a bottle of medication, for which he did not forget to charge 3s. 6d., and promising to pay a visit on Monday evening to the "old witch," Mrs. Mole, and put an end to her subtle arts... ... the news of the expected coming of the witch-doctor spread far and wide, and about eight o'clock there could not have been less than 200 people collected near the cottage of Mrs. Mole to witness the supernatural powers of the Hadleigh wizard.
No.
I do, this is the point. They are both applications to a deity, for Christians, asking it to do something for them; for pagans, asking it to assist them to do someting for themselves.
Ok thanks.
I had never looked at spells that way before.
:)
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A Christian prayer should consist of professing your love of God; thanking Him for all His care; and lastly, asking for God's gift of care again, not merely for yourself, but for all people.
Perhaps Some Pagans do that too.
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How do you know they don't get an answer? That is just your prejudice talking.
I don't assume Pagans don't get an answer.
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So what you are saying is the difference is that the witch is not unbelievably arrogant.
Is that bad eggs...The truth is God answering prayers has nothing to do with 'arrogance''
Basically, your reply displays an example of ineffable ignorance.
You look at what is being said and all you have done is basically tried an action of INSULT but there is no one person or deity in the discussion which deserves such a reply.
How can a belief, a deity or something true be an offensive display etc?
offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.
Your reply is not acceptable nor is it proper.
You really want to proceed with such an offensive manner?
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the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result.
Which natural powers of the world?
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Which natural powers of the world?
Your previous responses have indicated that you already know more about witches, their beliefs, their deities, and their works than I, so you already know the answer to your question, thus saving me from having to do so!
If you don't, and I suspect that this is actually the case, do some research yoiurself as you will, as always, reject out-of-hand anything that I tell you.
P S - I already know exactly what your response to this post is going to be. And I don't need a crystal ball, although I do have one, to tell me what it will be!
Edited for typo's.
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I must admit I never saw spells as a form of prayer, spells seemed to be more Harry Potter and burying bacon in the garden to rub on warts later.
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Prayers_Versus_Spells.html
Investigating further.
Its interesting.
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Ok this one discusses it but also brings out some of what I was driving at.
In this manner, learning prayer and learning spell casting is learning about Who and What you really are, and learning to act like That. You are this Ancient Presence, That’s who and what you really are. You are both what is prayed to, and what does the praying. You are the Creator, the ultimate spell-caster.
Learning to pray and learning to cast spells are learning to act like who and what you really are.
This describes the meaning of the top point of the Sacred Pentagram of the witches: the top point represents the Ancient Presence (the Ancient Harmony). It both radiates, and is supported or described by two lines (the God and the Goddess, or own-power and other-power, or spell-casting and prayer). The line on the right is the fact that this Ancient Presence is perfectly Aware (the God, own-power, spell casting). The line on the left is the fact that the Ancient Presence is an infinite ocean of potential experience (the Goddess, other-power, prayer). These two lines radiate from the Ancient Harmony, to define the four points which are the Elements, the Children of the God and Goddess. The four points which are the Elements, the Children of the God and Goddess support these two lines, the God and Goddess, which together define the Ancient Harmony.
Hopefully this gives some insight into the exact nature of both prayer and spell-casting, to their similarities and differences, and to the fact that they are inseparable: when you pray, you are also casting a spell, and when you cast a spell, you are also praying.
http://dreaminghades.com/magic-and-spells-vs-prayer
Christian Prayers externalise the creative source ( I.e. God) whereas spells internalise it in effect making yourself God.
My understanding is that it is this, a lot of Christians have issue with, because they see God as not being them, as important.
(Seen as a form of Self worship?)
I suppose it's difficult because it depends who you read.
However spells seem to be seen as using the creative force within yourself, whereas Christian prayer seems to place great importance on acknowledging an outside source for listening and for the answering.
To see yourself as the source, in effect God, some Christians would see that as demonic.
You also have the imagery in Wicca, which increases their unease.
It depends how far a Christian is prepared to go in internalising their God. From some Christian perspectives it doesn't look good.
However I like Sikhism when it says there is a spark of divine in everyone, and Wicca doesn't seem so much different if you approach it from that angle. You contact that spark within yourself.
It's just a different approach.
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Which natural powers of the world?
Presumably things like the natural healing properties of some plants, like fennel for indigestion or honey and lemon for a sore throat.
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Interesting post, Rose but I think that while it is easy to think of things in boxes, the idea that Christians, pagans have such boxed beliefs doesn't match upnto the truth. As owlswing has pointed out, there are different approaches between witches and the internal/external view, and this is certainly true in Christianity.
To take one example there, I would suggest that Calvinism sees the individual as essentially a controlled offshoot of God. Also in the area of Christian mysticism, there is a much greater emphasis on the interconnectedness of everything wherein God being omnipresent means that the act of prayer is indeed an action from God. But even that sort of approach is a form of seeking simplicity when there is a continuum of belief.
To non believers as such as BeRational and myself, the view we have of both is they are much the same, as indeed they are to any superstitions such as rabbit's feet etc. Then, as gonnagle has raised in the past, many of us who look on such things as superstitions will often indulge in some magical thinking; in my case there is the mug that shouldn't be used. And even scientifically, there may be some sense in the ritualization of activity in that it helps the mind focus.
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Ok this one discusses it but also brings out some of what I was driving at.
Christian Prayers externalise the creative source ( I.e. God) whereas spells internalise it in effect making yourself God.
My understanding is that it is this, a lot of Christians have issue with, because they see God as not being them, as important.
(Seen as a form of Self worship?)
I suppose it's difficult because it depends who you read.
However spells seem to be seen as using the creative force within yourself, whereas Christian prayer seems to place great importance on acknowledging an outside source for listening and for the answering.
To see yourself as the source, in effect God, some Christians would see that as demonic.
You also have the imagery in Wicca, which increases their unease.
It depends how far a Christian is prepared to go in internalising their God. From some Christian perspectives it doesn't look good.
However I like Sikhism when it says there is a spark of divine in everyone, and Wicca doesn't seem so much different if you approach it from that angle. You contact that spark within yourself.
It's just a different approach.
Two points - One, the site from which your quote comes is titled, in full, "Dreaming at the feet of Hades", and I have never known of any witch or Pagan who has had any connection with him, mainly because of his connection with an 'evil' force and therefore more in tune with negative, "black" if you must call it that, magic. Most witches avoid that side of the coin due to the application of the Three-Fold Law which states that 'whatever you send out, for good or ill, shall be returned to you three-fold'; so, despite the adage that 'if you cannot curse, you cannot cure', a curse and a cure being two sides of the same coin - the spells being almost identical but the result being opposite, pure 'evil' spells are usually avoided like the plague.
Two, the site and its writer are American and, as I have said before, American witchcraft and magic bear little resemblance, in some cases no resemblance whatsoever, to European and Norse witchcraft and magic. I have read through some of the site and find little that a European or Norse witch would recognise as being as they practice the Craft.
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And even scientifically, there may be some sense in the ritualization of activity in that it helps the mind focus.
Not only that, but it help to codify what you are doing in order to improve your results, in science as in the Craft.
A scientist seeking a scientific answer will try one path, if he does not get the answer that he expected or gets an answer that suggests a flaw in his expected answer or his process he will modify the process, his path, of investigation until he gets a definitive answer to his question.
With witches it is the same process but the answer is not always as obvioius.
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Not only that, but it help to codify what you are doing in order to improve your results, in science as in the Craft.
A scientist seeking a scientific answer will try one path, if he does not get the answer that he expected or gets an answer that suggests a flaw in his expected answer or his process he will modify the process, his path, of investigation until he gets a definitive answer to his question.
With witches it is the same process but the answer is not always as obvioius.
Mmm I think this misunderstands what a good scientists should do, but that would be a massive derail to go into in any detail. It's much closer to technology which while based on science is not science itself.
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Mmm I think this misunderstands what a good scientists should do, but that would be a massive derail to go into in any detail. It's much closer to technology which while based on science is not science itself.
Did I hear someone call my name?? No?? Well I can certainly help to unravel this conundrum...You see...witch-craft plays on the mind and will often leave the victim...sorry, target...in a confused and distressed state...witch-craft and paganism not to mention aggressive institutions all do the same thing. They wind up the psyche of those they can reach and destroy the moral fibre of the individual...now...the difference is, between them and Jesus is that Jesus Christ upbuilds our moral fibre...he soothes and calms our genetic health and he starts a pyche repair programme...all through the power of prayer.
...no contest.
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Did I hear someone call my name?? No?? Well I can certainly help to unravel this conundrum...You see...witch-craft plays on the mind and will often leave the victim...sorry, target...in a confused and distressed state...witch-craft and paganism not to mention aggressive institutions all do the same thing. They wind up the psyche of those they can reach and destroy the moral fibre of the individual...now...the difference is, between them and Jesus is that Jesus Christ upbuilds our moral fibre...he soothes and calms our genetic health and he starts a pyche repair programme...all through the power of prayer.
...no contest.
There is no difference between ANY beliefs in that respect. They all affect the believer's behaviour.
The only people unaffected by belief are those who realise this.
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There is no difference between ANY beliefs in that respect. They all affect the believer's behaviour.
The only people unaffected by belief are those who realise this.
We will have to agree to differ then Leonard...but I have discovered that the act of righteous prayer delivers a special, spiritual strength, that can talk to our genetics...just as Jesus said...when he said God's spiritual waters can reach areas in the body quenching those desparate thirsts where no other refreshment can reach...and I think I know why.
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Nicholas here:
Did I hear someone call my name?? No?? Well I can certainly help to unravel this conundrum...You see...witch-craft plays on the mind and will often leave the victim...sorry, target...in a confused and distressed state...witch-craft and paganism not to mention aggressive institutions all do the same thing. They wind up the psyche of those they can reach and destroy the moral fibre of the individual...now...the difference is, between them and Jesus is that Jesus Christ upbuilds our moral fibre...he soothes and calms our genetic health and he starts a pyche repair programme...all through the power of prayer.
...no contest.
.... and here:
We will have to agree to differ then Leonard...but I have discovered that the act of righteous prayer delivers a special, spiritual strength, that can talk to our genetics...just as Jesus said...when he said God's spiritual waters can reach areas in the body quenching those desparate thirsts where no other refreshment can reach...and I think I know why.
.... you are probably the most 'grace'-ful poster I've come across. I don't look at or post on any other forums so I guess there will be others 'full of grace' elsewhere, no doubt.
Anyway, I'm with Nicholas on this one. Castings spells, be they good or bad, is using magick and not of the Holy Spirit. If you turn against or away from witchcraft you'll find yourself being attacked by demonic spirits. This is the seducing spirit attacking. The only way to stop such an attack is to call on the name of Jesus Christ and the demons vanish, leaving you with the most indescribable peace. "The peace that passeth all understanding", I guess.... and have been witness to.
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Anyway, I'm with Nicholas on this one. Castings spells, be they good or bad, is using magick and not of the Holy Spirit. If you turn against or away from witchcraft you'll find yourself being attacked by demonic spirits. This is the seducing spirit attacking. The only way to stop such an attack is to call on the name of Jesus Christ and the demons vanish, leaving you with the most indescribable peace. "The peace that passeth all understanding", I guess.... and have been witness to.
And just how many witches/pagans have you ever met and spoken to about their beliefs before you decided to write this laod of old rubbish?
A nice round number I would guess, just like the rest of you beknighted Christian bretheren.
Though I expect one, whom I shall refrain from naming for the time being, will almost certainly claim to have known and spoken to dozens from all over the world.
You just spout the same nonsense that cost thousnds of lives between 1430 and 1750 (or thereabouts) as preached by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger.
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We will have to agree to differ then Leonard...but I have discovered that the act of righteous prayer delivers a special, spiritual strength, that can talk to our genetics...just as Jesus said...when he said God's spiritual waters can reach areas in the body quenching those desparate thirsts where no other refreshment can reach...and I think I know why.
Yes, I have told you why, but I accept that your belief renders you unable to recognise the reality of the situation..
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They wind up the psyche of those they can reach and destroy the moral fibre of the individual.
Are you saying that Owlswing has had his moral fibre destroyed?
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Your previous responses have indicated that you already know more about witches, their beliefs, their deities, and their works than I, so you already know the answer to your question, thus saving me from having to do so!
You cannot riddle out of it that way. We know that pagans worship the forces of nature.
They in themselves are NOT 'NATURAL' powers. Fire, Earth, Air and Water are called natural elements. But you never referred to any of the above just Natural powers of the WORLD.
You referred to powers not elements and not the forces of nature. SO you need to answer and explain what Natural powers of the world you are referring to.
If you don't, and I suspect that this is actually the case, do some research yoiurself as you will, as always, reject out-of-hand anything that I tell you.
P S - I already know exactly what your response to this post is going to be. And I don't need a crystal ball, although I do have one, to tell me what it will be!
Edited for typo's.
Ahead of yourself and still wrong,. Because you have to show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.
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Presumably things like the natural healing properties of some plants, like fennel for indigestion or honey and lemon for a sore throat.
They are like herbal remedies in themselves they hold no power. Owlswing said NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD. Plants in and potions derived like all medcines come the properties of the plants used. They are not a power for the world. :)
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You cannot riddle out of it that way. We know that pagans worship the forces of nature.
They in themselves are NOT 'NATURAL' powers. Fire, Earth, Air and Water are called natural elements. But you never referred to any of the above just Natural powers of the WORLD.
You referred to powers not elements and not the forces of nature. SO you need to answer and explain what Natural powers of the world you are referring to.Ahead of yourself and still wrong,. Because you have to show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.
I don't have to show you anything - you have repeatedly told me that you know more about witches and pagans than I do - so suck it up kiddo!
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I don't have to show you anything - you have repeatedly told me that you know more about witches and pagans than I do - so suck it up kiddo!
I have NEVER said I know more about witches and pagans than you do.
That is untrue. BUT I do know more about the sum beliefs and where they come from.
Oh everyone can see you are running away! I have summed up all the facts of pagan beliefs and the forces they use of nature. But you cannot show because you a made a blunder spouting about NATURAL FORCES OF THE WORLD. When in truth you were referring to the things I said. Tree spirits or water nymphs not guiding you? The Spirits of the air all ran away have they. Or have you run out of eye of newt and wing of bat or foot of toad?
Let's be honest, you lost because all you believe in can be summed up in the forces of nature and nothing outside it, like God the Father or Jesus Christ to support.
How you have fallen when you know you cannot give an answer because I am right and you would have to admit it, if you ever did. I am sucking nothing up but you are fallen flat on your face and your lips have suctioned you to the pavement.
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And just how many witches/pagans have you ever met and spoken to about their beliefs before you decided to write this laod of old rubbish?
A nice round number I would guess, just like the rest of you beknighted Christian bretheren.
Though I expect one, whom I shall refrain from naming for the time being, will almost certainly claim to have known and spoken to dozens from all over the world.
You just spout the same nonsense that cost thousnds of lives between 1430 and 1750 (or thereabouts) as preached by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger.
Owlswing, I don't wish you ill.... no, rather I wish you well. Ha,ha.... wishes! But I'd give anything for you to find what I've found. I was into New Age for some years, not exactly pagan I know, but a branch of paganism, and I found myself looking at Christians with scorn.... oh, yes, and Jesus Christ was disappearing, very gradually.... becoming further and further away. Everything was wonderful and we thought we were gods.... huge red flag! But this is how Lucifer works.... it's literally a spell.... I was under hypnosis. The moment I rejected my New Age beliefs I was 'attacked', and by golly was it frightening to the point of being terrifying. I've been through some difficult/frightening times in my life but nothing, nothing to match that moment. After a while I realised what was happening and called on Jesus Christ. Well, I can't really describe it, but the 'attack' melted away, and as I mentioned above the ensuing peace was something I've never known before. I'm sharing this with you because I've literally experienced the power of Jesus Christ, and hope one day you will, too.
The so-called Christians that burned pagans at the times you mentioned were not of Christ. Nobody could perform such dastardly acts if they were a true follower of Christ Jesus.
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Leaving aside the No True Scotsman that you've tried here, SweetPea, you still think owlswing is working with demons.
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The so-called Christians that burned pagans at the times you mentioned were not of Christ. Nobody could perform such dastardly acts if they were a true follower of Christ Jesus.
So-called Christians? Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger were Dominican monks and members of the Inquisition withthe direct authority of Pope Innocent VIII.
Those burned were NOT pagans, they were not even witches. The vast majority were Christians, Catholic Christians, who confessed to being involved in witchcraft under torture which, in a great many cases, was not stopped until 'accomplices' had been named. 'Accomplices' who were then arrested and similarly tortured into confession and further naming of 'accomplices'.
All done in the name of the Christian faith in order to cleanse the world of heresy!
Even modern witches are considered heretics to the Catholic faith and the Inquisition still exists as, from 1908 to 1965, the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, and Pope Benedict XVI, formerly Cardinal Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith formerly known as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.
NOT Christians - I'll bet the Catholics think that they are!
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I have NEVER said I know more about witches and pagans than you do.
That is untrue. BUT I do know more about the sum beliefs and where they come from.
Oh everyone can see you are running away! I have summed up all the facts of pagan beliefs and the forces they use of nature. But you cannot show because you a made a blunder spouting about NATURAL FORCES OF THE WORLD. When in truth you were referring to the things I said. Tree spirits or water nymphs not guiding you? The Spirits of the air all ran away have they. Or have you run out of eye of newt and wing of bat or foot of toad?
Let's be honest, you lost because all you believe in can be summed up in the forces of nature and nothing outside it, like God the Father or Jesus Christ to support.
How you have fallen when you know you cannot give an answer because I am right and you would have to admit it, if you ever did. I am sucking nothing up but you are fallen flat on your face and your lips have suctioned you to the pavement.
Natural powers - you deny that Earth, Air, Fire, and Water are natural powers, that they are only elements.
The power of Earth is demonstrated in every earthquake, and also in its constancy, even after an earthquake it reruns to the state in which it can and is used for agriculture etc. In spells it is Earth's connection with fertility, stability, strength that is invoked.
The power of Air is demonstrated in storms and hurricanes. In spells it is Air's ability to cleanse, to remove dead matter and its necessity for continuing life that are invoked.
The power of Fire can be seen in forest fires and in volcanoes. Its power to purify, cleanse, its force and energy are invoked in spell working.
The power of Water, see tsunami. Its ability to cleanse and aid healing, and its absolute necessity for life to continue is called upon in spells.
As said previously you will, of course, reject this, as your God must, to buttress your belief, be the only source of any of these effects.
You can call it running away if you like, I do not. I call it turning my back on someone who is so blinkered that she cannot see beyond her childhood indoctrination which has robbed her of her ability to question, thus preventing any kind of meaningful discussion.
However, you are happy with your road and I am happy with my path and never the twain shall meet. I will never convince you that you may be wrong and, so far, you have said nothing that would convince me to return to Christianity. You go your way and I'll go mine, preferrably with us starting back-to-back!
If, because of that, I am condemned to Hell for eternity I have no problem with it, one, because I prefer warm climates to sweet music and two, I would find spending eternity with most, not all, of the Christians on this forum to be pure unadulterated Hell on Wheels.
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I have never known a witch or a pagan. Only encountered a couple of them on this forum.
I'm not concerned with spells versus prayers but wonder if peace of mind and relatively good nature is different between pagan/witches and Christians? Rhiannon was a positive example of a kindly, well balanced pagan. I can't think of anyone else.
Do pagans or witches generally take their beliefs seriously or are they some kind of weird hobby?
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I have never known a witch or a pagan. Only encountered a couple of them on this forum.
I'm not concerned with spells versus prayers but wonder if peace of mind and relatively good nature is different between pagan/witches and Christians? Rhiannon was a positive example of a kindly, well balanced pagan. I can't think of anyone else.
Do pagans or witches generally take their beliefs seriously or are they some kind of weird hobby?
The only ones who do not take their beliefs serriously are usually teenage girls who want to be able to tell their mates that they are witches.
These do not usually stay long as a coven is generally not very happy having coven business discussed with outsiders. This especially applies to 'outing' other members of the coven by using or making public their real names. OK, some do not mind but those in professions like the law or banking or the police tend to keep their beliefs private as there are still those who pagan as somewhat untrustworthy.
One recent Archbishop of Canterbury had his ability to hold that office questioned as he was a druid.
Most witches and pagans (not all pagans are witches (Rhiannon was not) but the vast mjority of witches are pagan) have peace of mind and are relatively good nature except when the biased and the ignorant question those beliefs for no other reason than they are not the same as theirs and are therefore dismissed as being (insert derogatory terms of your choice).
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Natural powers - you deny that Earth, Air, Fire, and Water are natural powers, that they are only elements.
Never denied anything... I simply proved the point they are FORCES OF NATURE and as such they are already included in the things of pagan worship. They are not NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.
The power of Earth is demonstrated in every earthquake, and also in its constancy, even after an earthquake it reruns to the state in which it can and is used for agriculture etc. In spells it is Earth's connection with fertility, stability, strength that is invoked.
It means nothing in relation to what has already been discussed. You said natural powers of the world not the forces of nature.
I pointed out to you as I am doing yet again. The the pagan worship is really about the worship of the forces of nature.
Now what are the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.
The power of Air is demonstrated in storms and hurricanes. In spells it is Air's ability to cleanse, to remove dead matter and its necessity for continuing life that are invoked.
Again forces of nature sin NOT a Natural power of the world. Because a Natural power of the WORLD would present constantly and I don't see a 24 hour storm, hurricanes or even earthquakes constantly going on everywhere in the world.
The power of Fire can be seen in forest fires and in volcanoes. Its power to purify, cleanse, its force and energy are invoked in spell working.
The power of Water, see tsunami. Its ability to cleanse and aid healing, and its absolute necessity for life to continue is called upon in spells.
As said previously you will, of course, reject this, as your God must, to buttress your belief, be the only source of any of these effects.
Irrelevant they are forces of nature not NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.
TO be a natural power they would constantly have to be present 24/7
You can call it running away if you like, I do not. I call it turning my back on someone who is so blinkered that she cannot see beyond her childhood indoctrination which has robbed her of her ability to question, thus preventing any kind of meaningful discussion.
The same old rubbish you got it so wrong and cannot man-up to your own failing. As I pointed out they are NOT NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD. They are forces of nature and they are not present or constant as a natural power of the world would be. You claimed the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD. I proved you only believe in the forces of nature as power and when asked to show these NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD, YOU COULDN'T. EPIC FAIL.
However, you are happy with your road and I am happy with my path and never the twain shall meet. I will never convince you that you may be wrong and, so far, you have said nothing that would convince me to return to Christianity. You go your way and I'll go mine, preferrably with us starting back-to-back!
If, because of that, I am condemned to Hell for eternity I have no problem with it, one, because I prefer warm climates to sweet music and two, I would find spending eternity with most, not all, of the Christians on this forum to be pure unadulterated Hell on Wheels.
No! you haven't asnwered the question.
Show us what NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD you referred to.
I have answered every point, proved every point and all you have done is ignored the truth of your own blunder and tried to move the goal post. If you cannot show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD, outside the forces of nature then we all know that you were spouting nonsense and cannot admit you got it wrong.
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Owlswing on September 26, 2016, 06:43:19 PM
the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result.
Which natural powers of the world?
You cannot riddle out of it that way. We know that pagans worship the forces of nature.
They in themselves are NOT 'NATURAL' powers. Fire, Earth, Air and Water are called natural elements. But you never referred to any of the above just Natural powers of the WORLD.
You referred to powers not elements and not the forces of nature. SO you need to answer and explain what Natural powers of the world you are referring to.Ahead of yourself and still wrong,. Because you have to show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.
As the gist of the conversation shows... Natural elements and forces of nature are not what is being discussed.
You have been asked to provide the POWERS OF THE NATURAL world which you claim witches use to acheive their purpose.
I have proved you wrong on every post written by you so far in response to the above.
Why not just admit you got it wrong?
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As you can see I wrote yesterday....
You cannot riddle out of it that way. We know that pagans worship the forces of nature.
They in themselves are NOT 'NATURAL' powers. Fire, Earth, Air and Water are called natural elements. But you never referred to any of the above just Natural powers of the WORLD.
You referred to powers not elements and not the forces of nature. SO you need to answer and explain what Natural powers of the world you are referring to.Ahead of yourself and still wrong,. Because you have to show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.
Yet today,
Totally ignoring the above Owlswing wrote:
Natural powers - you deny that Earth, Air, Fire, and Water are natural powers, that they are only elements.
The power of Earth is demonstrated in every earthquake, and also in its constancy, even after an earthquake it reruns to the state in which it can and is used for agriculture etc. In spells it is Earth's connection with fertility, stability, strength that is invoked.
The power of Air is demonstrated in storms and hurricanes. In spells it is Air's ability to cleanse, to remove dead matter and its necessity for continuing life that are invoked.
The power of Fire can be seen in forest fires and in volcanoes. Its power to purify, cleanse, its force and energy are invoked in spell working.
The power of Water, see tsunami. Its ability to cleanse and aid healing, and its absolute necessity for life to continue is called upon in spells.
As said previously you will, of course, reject this, as your God must, to buttress your belief, be the only source of any of these effects.
You can call it running away if you like, I do not. I call it turning my back on someone who is so blinkered that she cannot see beyond her childhood indoctrination which has robbed her of her ability to question, thus preventing any kind of meaningful discussion.
However, you are happy with your road and I am happy with my path and never the twain shall meet. I will never convince you that you may be wrong and, so far, you have said nothing that would convince me to return to Christianity. You go your way and I'll go mine, preferrably with us starting back-to-back!
If, because of that, I am condemned to Hell for eternity I have no problem with it, one, because I prefer warm climates to sweet music and two, I would find spending eternity with most, not all, of the Christians on this forum to be pure unadulterated Hell on Wheels.
The truth is that Owlswing knows as I pointed out:-
We know that pagans worship the forces of nature. Such elements as fire, wind, air and water are all part of nature.
They are good servants but bad masters.
However these things have NO POWER in the casting of spells by witches OR the worship of them as pagans.
Since they are not Natural powers of the world and have no power outside their existence to help us or harm us.
As servants they are helpful but as master they are disastrous to us. The elements and the forces of nature have no controlling body and cannot be summoned to do our bidding in casting a spell.
So now we have established a 'no get out clause'. Perhaps Owlswing will explain the powers of the natural world and tell us what they are what they do.
Owlswing on September 26, 2016, 06:43:19 PM
the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result.
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Jesus bleedin' Christ, Sassy - no wonder people are leaving the Church in their droves!
Please do not expect any more responses from me; I am going back to my policy (taken upon expert advice) of totally ignoring you rather than set myself up to be suspended or banned by the Mods - which, if I respond as I feel like doing when I read your heaps of crap, I assuredly will!
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Owlswing, any 'burning' by anyone calling themselves a Christian is a Satanic act, and not by someone who is a true follower of Christ.... be they a Pope or not.
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I have never known a witch or a pagan. Only encountered a couple of them on this forum.
I'm not concerned with spells versus prayers but wonder if peace of mind and relatively good nature is different between pagan/witches and Christians? Rhiannon was a positive example of a kindly, well balanced pagan. I can't think of anyone else.
Do pagans or witches generally take their beliefs seriously or are they some kind of weird hobby?
so let's see first of all you brand Owlswing and horsethorn on here as non kindly non well balanced pagans. You then seem to imply that overall they are less kindly and less well balanced than Christians and you finish by questioning their integrity and thinking they are weird. Do you perhaps want to again and try for the full condescension?
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Jesus bleedin' Christ, Sassy - no wonder people are leaving the Church in their droves!
Please do not expect any more responses from me; I am going back to my policy (taken upon expert advice) of totally ignoring you rather than set myself up to be suspended or banned by the Mods - which, if I respond as I feel like doing when I read your heaps of crap, I assuredly will!
I see when all else fails you run away. It has happened throughout history where God is, and God shows the lack of foundations in some of the beliefs of mankind. What I do not understand is why when you believe and admit your beliefs are not founded in truth, you throw your rattle out of the pram when it is proved.
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I see when all else fails you run away. It has happened throughout history where God is, and God shows the lack of foundations in some of the beliefs of mankind. What I do not understand is why when you believe and admit your beliefs are not founded in truth, you throw your rattle out of the pram when it is proved.
One last answer - you have proved nothing. You have made assertions, you have stated your beliefs, but you have proved nothing and can prove nothing.
To put it bluntly you are full of piss and wind and throw your toys out of your pram the second anyone has the temerity to question your so-called truth and more and more people are rejecting your so-called truth and turning to other beliefs from atheism to paganism and all stations in between and that really ticks you off and long may it continue to do so.
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One last answer - you have proved nothing. You have made assertions, you have stated your beliefs, but you have proved nothing and can prove nothing.
To put it bluntly you are full of piss and wind and throw your toys out of your pram the second anyone has the temerity to question your so-called truth and more and more people are rejecting your so-called truth and turning to other beliefs from atheism to paganism and all stations in between and that really ticks you off and long may it continue to do so.
Atheism is not a belief
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Atheism is not a belief
By my definition atheism is a belief that there are no gods! You call it what the heck you like, but I consider it covers everything from a belief that there are no gods to a disbelief in the existence of any god.
For all practical purposes I consider them to be the same thing, right or wrong.
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By my definition atheism is a belief that there are no gods! You call it what the heck you like, but I consider it covers everything from a belief that there are no gods to a disbelief in the existence of any god.
For all practical purposes I consider them to be the same thing, right or wrong.
The two ranges you give here are essentially the same, and miss out that as an atheist I simply have a lack of a belief in gods. I lack a belief in whurtyboup too. But it's not a belief that there are no whurtyboup, or have a disbelief in the existence of any whurtyboups.
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By my definition atheism is a belief that there are no gods! You call it what the heck you like, but I consider it covers everything from a belief that there are no gods to a disbelief in the existence of any god.
For all practical purposes I consider them to be the same thing, right or wrong.
It's wrong.
Atheists do not believe in a god or gods.
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One last answer - you have proved nothing. You have made assertions, you have stated your beliefs, but you have proved nothing and can prove nothing.
To put it bluntly you are full of piss and wind and throw your toys out of your pram the second anyone has the temerity to question your so-called truth and more and more people are rejecting your so-called truth and turning to other beliefs from atheism to paganism and all stations in between and that really ticks you off and long may it continue to do so.
I have shown and you have proved that you have no answer when asked about the "Natural powers of the WORLD" you claim witches use.
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I have shown and you have proved that you have no answer when asked about the "Natural powers of the WORLD" you claim witches use.
Sassy
Natural powers of the world could be anything you could use to change an outcome or make a difference.
Plants can be a natural power in the world if they can be turned into medicine which cures someone.
If you want to see the "Natural powers in the world" you need to see through new eyes, IMO.
Even the most mundane thing can be " the natural powers in the world" if you open your eyes.
I don't know how Owlswing sees it, but something as simple as the trickling sound of a stream can calm your mood. It can bring about a change.
Perhaps some Pagans want to use what is mainly perceived as mundane things, to bring about a change in some way.
Perhaps they see the things you see as " ordinary", they see as extraordinary.
They see the extraordinary in things you dismiss, as ordinary.
That's why you don't see it, IMO.
They want to use this, in some way, to intereact with it, to bring about a change.
Natural things, changing things.
Or I could be totally wrong? Owlswing?
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I have come across Wicca before as a child, my best friends dad was a member of a coven and her Grandmother was a witch.
I don't think it was typical though. Probably Covens vary. I know it was Wicca because they specifically said so.
It was all terribly secret at the time, and the family in question considered themselves very much middle class, and couldn't afford the effect on their reputation, if people knew.
A magazine her Dad edited had a letters page where two blokes argued about who deflowered the most virgins so was most powerful.
I was about eight when I read that, and asked my mother what a virgin was.
My friends Dad used to give me the magazines to read, most of it was sharing stuff, like making shapes in the dirt etc. ( magical patterns)
But I remember the bit about deflowering virgins, so I think there are some dodgy people hanging around Wicca.
I don't think Owlswing or any other Pagan/Wiccan is into that btw. ( but I think like most religions it draws certain types of nutters)
I was always warned by my friends parents to be careful though, which indicated to me some people were not so nice.
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it didn't create the most positive impression of Wicca because grandma went to live with the family when she got old, both my friends parents were in the medical profession looking after geriatrics and the old lady chose to die in their house without any form of pain killers and it took a terrible toll on my friend to have her grandmother screaming in pain and asking to be bumped off. ( we must have been about 10)
When she did finally die, I think her DAd got told off, by his superiors, but it was the old ladies wish as she didn't believe in hospitals or conventional medicines. ( it caused some questions to be asked in higher places)
My friend used to come round to me sometimes, because the suffering of her grandmother was too much.
Of course all the Wicca stuff was very secret and not many people knew about it.
It's my only contact with it, although I can see that much of it is harmless.
My negative impression of Wicca doesn't originate from Christianity, it comes from my experience of knowing a family into it, from about the age of seven.
I had an even more negative opinion of Christianity, which caused far more damaging effects on others too. IMO.
I was lucky in that my parents weren't religious at all, and I could talk to my mother about anything.
Looking back, I think grandma dying at home like that, was a very unhealthy experience for any child.
Grandma was a witch that didn't believe in conventional medicines.
Ive read about the air earth fire water bits, but the greatest impressions were created by the things I encountered.
What I encountered wasn't all good, and it had nothing to do with Devils or demons Satan or Christianity.
I think there are probably aspects of any religion that are best avoided, it's not just Wicca.
I do try to see the positive aspects of a religion that respects nature etc.
Most of the time, I succeed, but now and again I think about the things I came across and then I see there are elements there ( like most religions) that are best avoided.
The moral of my story is most religions have areas that are not so nice, that includes Wicca.
Still back to the positive.
I have no issue with the idea of respecting and revering nature.
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Sassy
Natural powers of the world could be anything you could use to change an outcome or make a difference.
Plants can be a natural power in the world if they can be turned into medicine which cures someone.
If you want to see the "Natural powers in the world" you need to see through new eyes, IMO.
Even the most mundane thing can be " the natural powers in the world" if you open your eyes.
I don't know how Owlswing sees it, but something as simple as the trickling sound of a stream can calm your mood. It can bring about a change.
Perhaps some Pagans want to use what is mainly perceived as mundane things, to bring about a change in some way.
Perhaps they see the things you see as " ordinary", they see as extraordinary.
They see the extraordinary in things you dismiss, as ordinary.
That's why you don't see it, IMO.
They want to use this, in some way, to intereact with it, to bring about a change.
Natural things, changing things.
Or I could be totally wrong? Owlswing?
You re not wrong, and certainly not totally wrong.
For someone who is stressed the sound of a breeze in the leaves and th sound of birdsong can effect a change. The spell would be to request (prayer to a Christian) that the deity help the stressed person to hear those calming sounds through the noise of their stress.
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You re not wrong, and certainly not totally wrong.
For someone who is stressed the sound of a breeze in the leaves and th sound of birdsong can effect a change. The spell would be to request (prayer to a Christian) that the deity help the stressed person to hear those calming sounds through the noise of their stress.
i have no issue with that at all Owlswing, it sounds very nice.
:)
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it didn't create the most positive impression of Wicca because grandma went to live with the family when she got old, both my friends parents were in the medical profession looking after geriatrics and the old lady chose to die in their house without any form of pain killers and it took a terrible toll on my friend to have her grandmother screaming in pain and asking to be bumped off. ( we must have been about 10)
When she did finally die, I think her DAd got told off, by his superiors, but it was the old ladies wish as she didn't believe in hospitals or conventional medicines. ( it caused some questions to be asked in higher places)
My friend used to come round to me sometimes, because the suffering of her grandmother was too much.
Of course all the Wicca stuff was very secret and not many people knew about it.
It's my only contact with it, although I can see that much of it is harmless.
My negative impression of Wicca doesn't originate from Christianity, it comes from my experience of knowing a family into it, from about the age of seven.
I had an even more negative opinion of Christianity, which caused far more damaging effects on others too. IMO.
I was lucky in that my parents weren't religious at all, and I could talk to my mother about anything.
Looking back, I think grandma dying at home like that, was a very unhealthy experience for any child.
Grandma was a witch that didn't believe in conventional medicines.
Ive read about the air earth fire water bits, but the greatest impressions were created by the things I encountered.
What I encountered wasn't all good, and it had nothing to do with Devils or demons Satan or Christianity.
I think there are probably aspects of any religion that are best avoided, it's not just Wicca.
I do try to see the positive aspects of a religion that respects nature etc.
Most of the time, I succeed, but now and again I think about the things I came across and then I see there are elements there ( like most religions) that are best avoided.
The moral of my story is most religions have areas that are not so nice, that includes Wicca.
Still back to the positive.
I have no issue with the idea of respecting and revering nature.
One of the problems with Wicca is that it is only one of the many Pagan belief paths and there are many different paths that branch off from the original main path of modern Paganism which is usually referred to, by Pagans/witches, as 'Hard Gard'.
The 'Gard' is an abbreviation of Gardner, as in Gerald B Gardner, the founder of modern Wicca. A 'Hard Gard' is one who sticks rigidly and without deviation of any sort to the rules of Wicca as laid down in Gardner's Book of Shadows, a kind of diary of everything that a Coven does ritually and magically and which each new member of a Coven will be required to copy, by hand and in full, upon their initition into the Coven, - Gardnerians do not recognise any form of non-Coven paganism/witchcraft as being REAL pagnism/witchcraft and have tried very hard to prevent any who are not members of a Gradnerian Coven referring to themselves as Wiccans. They have failed miserably.
I have no idea which form of Wicca your grandmother espoused but it does not, from the information that you give, sound as if it were any form of Gardnerian (no, I am not Gardnerian), but there are groups and individuals who call themselves Wiccans that follow the rejection of orthodox medicine path. Most of the Pagans/witches that I have worked with will only intervene when orthodox medicine has stated 'there is nothing more we can do' for the patient.
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I have come across Wicca before as a child, my best friends dad was a member of a coven and her Grandmother was a witch.
I don't think it was typical though. Probably Covens vary. I know it was Wicca because they specifically said so.
It was all terribly secret at the time, and the family in question considered themselves very much middle class, and couldn't afford the effect on their reputation, if people knew.
A magazine her Dad edited had a letters page where two blokes argued about who deflowered the most virgins so was most powerful.
I was about eight when I read that, and asked my mother what a virgin was.
My friends Dad used to give me the magazines to read, most of it was sharing stuff, like making shapes in the dirt etc. ( magical patterns)
But I remember the bit about deflowering virgins, so I think there are some dodgy people hanging around Wicca.
I don't think Owlswing or any other Pagan/Wiccan is into that btw. ( but I think like most religions it draws certain types of nutters)
I was always warned by my friends parents to be careful though, which indicated to me some people were not so nice.
Sorry, Rose I missed this part of your story.
I do not know what kind of Coven your friend's father was a member of but it WAS NOT WICCAN!
In fact, it was, quite obviously, one of the Covens that caused Covens of real Pagans/witches to refuse membership to any person under the age of 18 for some and 21 for others.
The Pagan Federation recommends that any female who is told that having sex with any male member or members of a Coven is part of being a Coven witch should, one, run fast and run far and two, report the entire matter in s much detail as possible, to the police and the Pagan Federation.
Is it really any wonder that Sassy et al regard and treat Pagans and witches as they do when there are such people around who call themselves pagan and witch!
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One of the problems with Wicca is that it is only one of the many Pagan belief paths and there are many different paths that branch off from the original main path of modern Paganism which is usually referred to, by Pagans/witches, as 'Hard Gard'.
The 'Gard' is an abbreviation of Gardner, as in Gerald B Gardner, the founder of modern Wicca. A 'Hard Gard' is one who sticks rigidly and without deviation of any sort to the rules of Wicca as laid down in Gardner's Book of Shadows, a kind of diary of everything that a Coven does ritually and magically and which each new member of a Coven will be required to copy, by hand and in full, upon their initition into the Coven, - Gardnerians do not recognise any form of non-Coven paganism/witchcraft as being REAL pagnism/witchcraft and have tried very hard to prevent any who are not members of a Gradnerian Coven referring to themselves as Wiccans. They have failed miserably.
I have no idea which form of Wicca your grandmother espoused but it does not, from the information that you give, sound as if it were any form of Gardnerian (no, I am not Gardnerian), but there are groups and individuals who call themselves Wiccans that follow the rejection of orthodox medicine path. Most of the Pagans/witches that I have worked with will only intervene when orthodox medicine has stated 'there is nothing more we can do' for the patient.
It was my friends grandmother, Owlswing.
Her Dad couldn't have been against the use of conventional medicine because he was a matron at a local old peoples home and would have had to dispense them.
Perhaps the Grandmother had leanings to one of the groups you are referring to.
One of the things I do remember was that the Wicca was considered as being historically in the family sort of handed down. ( I was told about the burning times etc)It was hoped my friend would take it up, but she wasn't really into it at that time.
I would have thought the grandmother and earlier would have predated gardnerian wicca although they were very secretive about members in a coven.
I had always assumed all covens had 13 members, so maybe they were. It was also considered bad form to reveal other members of the coven ( I Sussed a couple out, only because my friend Sussed them out, most seemed to have influential middle class jobs)
It's almost like the masons :)
Most of what was in the booklets went over my head because I was only 7+ when I had them.
I remember the simple things like drawing pictures and patterns in the dirt to create different spells, like symbolic shapes.
Her dad was also heavily into ancient Eygpt and spoke fluent Arabic.
He also spoke about an odd belief ( to me) that he held that we lived in a dream and we visited the real world when we went to sleep and visited the astral plane and our dreams were distorted memories of that real world.
Not sure how that fits into Wicca, but that was his belief.
They definately saw themselves as wiccans as they told me it meant " craft of the wise'
I don't know if the booklet I read was open to just coven members, it might have had other contributors whose views they tolerated.
Her Dad was the editor of it.
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Sorry, Rose I missed this part of your story.
I do not know what kind of Coven your friend's father was a member of but it WAS NOT WICCAN!
In fact, it was, quite obviously, one of the Covens that caused Covens of real Pagans/witches to refuse membership to any person under the age of 18 for some and 21 for others.
The Pagan Federation recommends that any female who is told that having sex with any male member or members of a Coven is part of being a Coven witch should, one, run fast and run far and two, report the entire matter in s much detail as possible, to the police and the Pagan Federation.
Is it really any wonder that Sassy et al regard and treat Pagans and witches as they do when there are such people around who call themselves pagan and witch!
I think back in the 60s and 70s people were more tolerant of weird ideas, because they mistakenly thought they were harmless.
I don't think my friends Dad was into anything weird, but maybe people weren't so aware back then.
So they were more tolerant.
Like tolerating the weird ideas Jimmy Saville had, not seeing the dangers.
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No one ever touched me, or my friend ( as far as I know) and we were both warned about unsavoury characters that could exist calling themselves Wiccans.
I just wonder if in the 60's and 70s people tolerated more, ideas wise.
People didn't see abuse back then did they? Not in the same way we do today.
I'm glad to hear Wiccans no longer tolerate weird blokes writing letters in booklets/magazines about deflowering young girls.
I think back in the 60s and 70s people just laughed and thought it was harmless fantasy.
That's what I suspect.
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It was my friends grandmother, Owlswing.
Sorry for the misquote!
Her Dad couldn't have been against the use of conventional medicine because he was a matron at a local old peoples home and would have had to dispense them.
Perhaps the Grandmother had leanings to one of the groups you are referring to.
One of the things I do remember was that the Wicca was considered as being historically in the family sort of handed down. ( I was told about the burning times etc)It was hoped my friend would take it up, but she wasn't really into it at that time.
I would have thought the grandmother and earlier would have predated gardnerian wicca although they were very secretive about members in a coven.
Gardner's Wicca began in about 1952 with the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts and their replacement by the Fraudulent Mediums Act, so by the 60s it was reasonably well-established.
There were many Wiccans who claimed historical connections to the Craft and Wicca as one of the things that Gardner claimed for Wicca, something that he picked up from Margaret A Murray, whom he met as they were both members of the Folklore Society of which Murray was President, was her theory that witchcraft had been a religious cult that had existed before the coming of Christianity and had continued to exist, uninterrupted, underground since the coming of Christianity.
The name the Burning Times was/is used to refer to the time between about 1430 and up to about 1750, the time of the witch-craze that was fuelled by the Inquisition. It was so-called because, thanks to Kramer and Spengler and the Malleus Maleficarum, witchcraft had been deemed heresy by dint of the 'fact' that witches made a pact with the Devil t the Sabbat in order to receive their magic powers, and burning at the stake was the punishment under Catholic law for heresy.
I had always assumed all covens had 13 members, so maybe they were. It was also considered bad form to reveal other members of the coven ( I Sussed a couple out, only because my friend Sussed them out, most seemed to have influential middle class jobs)
It's almost like the masons :)
The Coven of 13 was another of Murray's ideas about witches that Gradner picked up. In fact, there was only one mention of a Coven having 13 members in the, one of very few, voluntary confessions to be a witch by Isobel Gowdie, a Scotswoman in 1662, but Murray, who had a habit of twisting history to fit her theory that was to lead to the rejection of the Murrayite witch-cult theory during the 1970s, decided that ALL Covens of Medieval witched had 13 members.
Members of a Coven are Oathbound to keep the identities of ALL witches, not just those of their Coven, secret unless the witch makes her being a witch public herself.
Her Dad also spoke about an odd belief ( to me) that he held that we lived in a dream and we visited the real world when we went to sleep and visited the astral plane and our dreams were distorted memories of that real world.
Not sure how that fits into Wicca, but that was his belief.
This, to my knowledge and belief, has nothing to do with Wicca, so it probably was just a personal belief.
They definitely saw themselves as wiccans as they told me it meant "craft of the wise'
Wicca and Wicce are Old English and thought variously to mean 'wise man' and 'wise woman' respectively or 'male witch' and 'female witch' respectively, and thus 'Witchcraft' is taken to mean 'the craft of the wise'.
Incidentally, today both female and male witches call themselves witch - you are only a wizard if you are Merlin or a denizen of the J K Rowling novels.
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Very interesting, thanks Owlswing.
:)
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Sassy
Natural powers of the world could be anything you could use to change an outcome or make a difference.
Plants can be a natural power in the world if they can be turned into medicine which cures someone.
If you want to see the "Natural powers in the world" you need to see through new eyes, IMO.
Even the most mundane thing can be " the natural powers in the world" if you open your eyes.
I don't know how Owlswing sees it, but something as simple as the trickling sound of a stream can calm your mood. It can bring about a change.
Perhaps some Pagans want to use what is mainly perceived as mundane things, to bring about a change in some way.
Perhaps they see the things you see as " ordinary", they see as extraordinary.
They see the extraordinary in things you dismiss, as ordinary.
That's why you don't see it, IMO.
They want to use this, in some way, to intereact with it, to bring about a change.
Natural things, changing things.
Or I could be totally wrong? Owlswing?
Read post 53.
There beliefs being in the forces of nature and I have shown the elements to be not what he is talking about.I know exactly what there beliefs and SPELLS are based on. But he has not answered the relevant question because he got it wrong.
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when he said God's spiritual waters can reach areas in the body quenching those desparate thirsts where no other refreshment can reach...
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Heineken?
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Are you sure you aren't thinking of Heineken?
I remember that
https://youtu.be/ab6dJYDgj48
:)
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Are you sure you aren't thinking of Heineken?
. . . or not thinking at all?
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Is that bad eggs...The truth is God answering prayers has nothing to do with 'arrogance''
No the arrogance is in you - believing that you have the correct religion when the evidence is as strong for pagan religions as it is for yours.
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No the arrogance is in you - believing that you have the correct religion when the evidence is as strong for pagan religions as it is for yours.
Want to make your mind up. Thought you could not find any verifiable evidence....
There is no evidence for pagan religion.
Now you really are displaying arrogance. Because you assume that Christianity is the same as Paganism. The fact is the Christian worships the creator God and the pagan worships the creation.
Appears your bias is showing and what is more astounding is you believing that paganism is the same as atheism. But neither believe in anything substantial for neither has cause for the beliefs.
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But neither believe in anything substantial for neither has cause for the beliefs.
Oh heck. None so blind.
If you argue that against paganism then the self same argument can be made against Christianity - there is no cause for your beliefs. Or if you claim there is, what about all the other religions that worship Gods. On what grounds do you negate them.
Actually I would argue there is substantially more that can be argued for paganism as a religion by way of proof - but that is a side issue and I still think that paganism is not true for me.
That being said they don't generally come out with the half cocked arguments and circular reasoning that dominate your posts.
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. . . I still think that paganism is not true for me.
That being said they don't generally come out with the half cocked arguments and circular reasoning that dominate your posts.
That is one of the main differences between Paganism and Christianity, we do NOT proselytise, partly because we do NOT believe that Paganism is for everyone; we DO believe that everyone should be allowed to find their own belief from anywhere along the scale from no belief to absolute belief without having it rammed down their throat virtually from the day that they are born.
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Want to make your mind up. Thought you could not find any verifiable evidence....
There is no evidence for pagan religion.
Now you really are displaying arrogance. Because you assume that Christianity is the same as Paganism. The fact is the Christian worships the creator God and the pagan worships the creation.
Appears your bias is showing and what is more astounding is you believing that paganism is the same as atheism. But neither believe in anything substantial for neither has cause for the beliefs.
The evidence for the Pagan religion is found in nature and in personal experience IMO..
Christianity only has the bible, and personal experience.
Nothing else.
So they are comparable, but Paganism can at least show you nature and the seasons which do exist.
We can all see them.
Paganism based in nature, is something we can all relate to, even if beliefs differ.
You have Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter each season is unique you have planting time and harvest time.
Then there is the moon and the tides, things we can all see and measure.
All Christianity has is a book written by people, and personal experience of believears.
In Christianity you have to be told what to believe, from a book with hundreds of different interpretations, from a time and culture very different from our own.
In Paganism ( it seems to me anyway) the basic structure of nature is there for us all to see, and it's up to you to find out and grow your own opinions from experiencing it.
Someone's experience is going to be different with nature depending on where they live, so in the land of the midnight sun it's going to be different to say somewhere nearer the equator.
Different places have different cycles ( in the Canary Islands the moon crescent looks the wrong way up)
Just my impressions :)
Look at the moon in the picture.
http://twanight.org/newTWAN/photos.asp?ID=3003358
;)
No wonder Paganism is so different in its way of seeing things, because the planet is so varied.
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No wonder Paganism is so different in its way of seeing things, because the planet is so varied.
Not only that but it is an admitted and even celebrated fact that there are almost infinitely many paths which you can choose ... or rather, which can choose you. There's no central authority figure (a pope, etc.) and no central authority organisation handing down what you must believe.
Owlswing's knowledge displayed on this thread has been fascinating to read, btw.
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That is one of the main differences between Paganism and Christianity, we do NOT proselytise, partly because we do NOT believe that Paganism is for everyone; we DO believe that everyone should be allowed to find their own belief from anywhere along the scale from no belief to absolute belief without having it rammed down their throat virtually from the day that they are born.
So why the thread? Rather antagonistic to start a witch/pagan spell vs Christian Prayer.
Everyone can and does find their own belief whether pagan or atheist. As all come under Pagan if not a Jew or Christian then I am not sure how fair you want it to be, you cannot get fairer than that.
Jesus Christ and even the Jews before him performed miracles. But paganism has had nothing and no one one with success when it comes to actions and spells working for healing. Take a look at 1 kings 18.
37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.
It is today as it has always been. Baal and his followers insulting the God who made them and worshiping the things God made.
Why if not ramming your beliefs down others throats have you written this thread? Why is it you have no confidence in your beliefs? In truth there is nothing you can do to change mans hearts about God and Jesus Christ once they are truly living according to the power of God.
Writing this thread shows you do ram it down peoples throats and attack the Christian Faith.
Personally, the Christians have a history where their God acted. The world and followers of Baal still waiting for Baal to do something.
Christian Prayer will win every time when it come competing with witch/pagan spell VS Christian prayer.
Christian prayer does not ram anything down anyones throat. It is said for people by believers who care about the wellbeing of others. It is never a competition because as Elisha taught us. Gods will is always done in the end. Because he exists...
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As a wee aside, the mention of Margaret Murray set a few bells ringing - and teeth on edge! When I was studying Egyptology for my degree, one of the recommended authors was Murray - as an example of the Victorian romantic promotion of the available facts to fit the ideas, rather than vice versa. I do not wish to intrude on the topic, but the strange fixation on Egypt by certain individuals has always fascinated me - the 'pyramidiots', the pseudochristians like Smith and Russell - and, in a category of her own, the mysterious - intriguing 'Omm Sety', who died relatively recently in 1980 - an enigma if ever there was one. Possibly the lure of the exotic and Victorian mysticism clouded the issue, but many historians of their day did much to entrench a mindset of Egyptian studies which remains a minefield to this day. (Don't even start me on Zahi Hawass......it's early in the year.)
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Christian Prayer will win every time when it come competing with witch/pagan spell VS Christian prayer
There's only one way to find out.........
FIGHT!!!!!!!!!
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Read post 53.
There beliefs being in the forces of nature and I have shown the elements to be not what he is talking about.I know exactly what there beliefs and SPELLS are based on. But he has not answered the relevant question because he got it wrong.
You KNOW Sweet F . .. - Sweet Fanny Adams about paganism!
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Not only that but it is an admitted and even celebrated fact that there are almost infinitely many paths which you can choose ... or rather, which can choose you. There's no central authority figure (a pope, etc.) and no central authority organisation handing down what you must believe.
Owlswing's knowledge displayed on this thread has been fascinating to read, btw.
Thanks Shaker - Happy New Year by the way!
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I may not share pagan beliefs, though I respect those who do. That's probably an Egyptology thing again - I came across 'Omm Sety' many years ago. She claimed to have lived as a priestess in the stunning temple of Abydos at the time of Seti I., and even in her present life, was a devotee of Amun-re and Osiris. She could have been dismissed as a crank, were it not for her very detailed knowledge of the court in late dyn XVIII and early dyn XIX Egypt - and the undeniable facts that she was able to show the location of buildings and statues which had not, at that time, been excavated. When I was at Abdju (Abydos) in 1980, I was less than a hundred yards from the shack in which she lived, but, as her health was very poor and in decline, we were advised not to disturb her. She died shortly afterward. Renowned and scholarly archaeologists respected her knowledge and skill as a draughtswoman, and valued her insights, which added to the sum of detail of that period. I wish I'd met her.
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I may not share pagan beliefs, though I respect those who do. That's probably an Egyptology thing again - I came across 'Omm Sety' many years ago. She claimed to have lived as a priestess in the stunning temple of Abydos at the time of Seti I., and even in her present life, was a devotee of Amun-re and Osiris. She could have been dismissed as a crank, were it not for her very detailed knowledge of the court in late dyn XVIII and early dyn XIX Egypt - and the undeniable facts that she was able to show the location of buildings and statues which had not, at that time, been excavated. When I was at Abdju (Abydos) in 1980, I was less than a hundred yards from the shack in which she lived, but, as her health was very poor and in decline, we were advised not to disturb her. She died shortly afterward. Renowned and scholarly archaeologists respected her knowledge and skill as a draughtswoman, and valued her insights, which added to the sum of detail of that period. I wish I'd met her.
Aren't you Christian?
How would you explain such an occurrence?
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Yep. Evangelical to boot, JK. That doesn't stop me respecting others faith or non faith stance, even if I don't share it, though. How would I explain Omm Sety? I honestly don't know. I could shove psychobabble into the mix, but in the end, I'm willing to admit that she remains a very intriguing enigma.
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Yep. Evangelical to boot, JK. That doesn't stop me respecting others faith or non faith stance, even if I don't share it, though. How would I explain Omm Sety? I honestly don't know. I could shove psychobabble into the mix, but in the end, I'm willing to admit that she remains a very intriguing enigma.
I read the article you recommended. Very interesting, but I find such things hard to accept and sometimes even harder to reject.
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You and me both, Owlswing!
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Owl, I have read the entire thread but couldn't really think of anything to say that others haven't said. Paganism is such a vast subject with so many branches (or streams and tributaries), which you explained to us before on a previous thread. I find it interesting but feel nervous and reluctant to delve too far; that doesn't sound rational but feelings aren't always rational.
However, this bit from you is lovely:
For someone who is stressed the sound of a breeze in the leaves and the sound of birdsong can effect a change.
Also looking up at the sky and seeing clouds moving gently is relaxing.
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Yep. Evangelical to boot, JK. That doesn't stop me respecting others faith or non faith stance, even if I don't share it, though. How would I explain Omm Sety? I honestly don't know. I could shove psychobabble into the mix, but in the end, I'm willing to admit that she remains a very intriguing enigma.
It's ironic that you use the term psychobabble, you being religious and all that...
Do you think your God knows how to explain Omm Sety?
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I googled Omm Sety, Jack, as I'd never heard of her. What a fascinating character! A local lass too (to me), born in Blackheath and expelled from a school in Dulwich (why do I find her a kindred spirit?).
"Foreign accent syndrome", very unusual. She liked the Catholic Mass too.
I have to say that I found some of what I read about her 'spooky' and am reluctant to delve further. Here's a bit from the Wiki article for anyone else who hasn't heard of her:
Dorothy Louise Eady was born in London in 1904, and raised in a coastal town.[2] At the age of three, after falling down a flight of stairs, she began exhibiting strange behaviours, asking that she be "brought home".[3] She also had developed the foreign accent syndrome. This caused some conflict in her early life. Her Sunday school teacher requested that her parents keep her away from class, because she had compared Christianity with "heathen" ancient Egyptian religion.[4] She was expelled from a Dulwich girls school after she refused to sing a hymn that called on God to "curse the swart Egyptians".[4] Her regular visits to Catholic mass, which she liked because it reminded her of the "Old Religion", were terminated after an interrogation and visit to her parents by a priest
Some things really cannot be explained. As Anchor said, she was an enigma.
(Hope we haven't derailed too much, Owlswing)
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I googled Omm Sety, Jack, as I'd never heard of her. What a fascinating character! A local lass too (to me), born in Blackheath and expelled from a school in Dulwich (why do I find her a kindred spirit?).
"Foreign accent syndrome", very unusual. She liked the Catholic Mass too.
I have to say that I found some of what I read about her 'spooky' and am reluctant to delve further. Here's a bit from the Wiki article for anyone else who hasn't heard of her:
Dorothy Louise Eady was born in London in 1904, and raised in a coastal town.[2] At the age of three, after falling down a flight of stairs, she began exhibiting strange behaviours, asking that she be "brought home".[3] She also had developed the foreign accent syndrome. This caused some conflict in her early life. Her Sunday school teacher requested that her parents keep her away from class, because she had compared Christianity with "heathen" ancient Egyptian religion.[4] She was expelled from a Dulwich girls school after she refused to sing a hymn that called on God to "curse the swart Egyptians".[4] Her regular visits to Catholic mass, which she liked because it reminded her of the "Old Religion", were terminated after an interrogation and visit to her parents by a priest
Some things really cannot be explained. As Anchor said, she was an enigma.
(Hope we haven't derailed too much, Owlswing)
Thanks you that.
I've heard of cases like this before. In my teens and early 20's I was into all this stuff - UFO's, ghosts and the like and cases like Omm sety came up. I eventually concluded that as I hadn't actually seen or observed any of this; and there were cases shown to be frauds and jokes, it seemed prudent to just put it aside and wait and see if anything really conclusive ever came along, which it pretty much hasn't. I.e. seeing is believing.
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The problem though, is that many eminent Egyptologists, from Howard Carter through Emery to Redford and Habachi were impressed by her knowledge of the Abdju area - and that she predicted the 'Kn-hb-set' garden's location at the Seti Temple - before any excavation had revealed it. Again, I have no explanation for this. I'm usually very sceptical of this kind of thing - Egyptology has long had to contend with pyramidiots and mystics who claimed 'hidden knowledge (as well as the horrors of the Victorian romantic historians), but Omm Sety remains an enigma. (Sorry for disrupting your thread, Owlswing - would you wish the mods to split it?)
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Christian Prayer will win every time when it come competing with witch/pagan spell VS Christian prayer.
I suspect that experiment's going to prove to be a really long, really drawn-out, no-score draw.
Christian prayer does not ram anything down anyones throat.
Perhaps not, but some Christians do ram those prayers down people's throats. Not all, just some.
It is never a competition because as Elisha taught us.
Not everyone who professes belief necessarily recalls what Elisha taught...
O.
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The problem though, is that many eminent Egyptologists, from Howard Carter through Emery to Redford and Habachi were impressed by her knowledge of the Abdju area - and that she predicted the 'Kn-hb-set' garden's location at the Seti Temple - before any excavation had revealed it. Again, I have no explanation for this. I'm usually very sceptical of this kind of thing - Egyptology has long had to contend with pyramidiots and mystics who claimed 'hidden knowledge (as well as the horrors of the Victorian romantic historians), but Omm Sety remains an enigma. (Sorry for disrupting your thread, Owlswing - would you wish the mods to split it?)
I don't think it needs splitting - most of us on here are intelligent enough to pursue the two tracks as is!
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I suspect that experiment's going to prove to be a really long, really drawn-out, no-score draw.
Perhaps not, but some Christians do ram those prayers down people's throats. Not all, just some.
Not everyone who professes belief necessarily recalls what Elisha taught...
O.
To one "O" from another "O" . . . (accompanied by a quiet childish giggle!)
This is the problem that most non-Christians will have to face sooner or later and probably continuously through life - Christians, like Sassy and a couple of others on this Forum, do not see their continual and continuous proselytising as being "ramming Christianity down other people's throats". They see it as a God(their God)-given right to preach the Gospel.
They do not see it as a, frequently unwelcome, intrusion into their lives. Oh, I agree that there are varying degrees of this intrusion, but if a person being proselytised is happy and comfortable in their non-Christian beliefs, the inability of these die-hard Christians to accept "NO" for an answer, regardless of the degree of politeness in which the "NO" is given, the ability to refrain from violence can be stretched almost to breaking point!
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This is the problem that most non-Christians will have to face sooner or later and probably continuously through life - Christians, like Sassy and a couple of others on this Forum, do not see their continual and continuous proselytising as being "ramming Christianity down other people's throats". They see it as a God(their God)-given right to preach the Gospel.
On the forum I don't see it as an issue - whilst it's not precisely what I come here for, it's an understandable position on the range of responses to the general topic, and we're coming here to discuss these sorts of issues and areas. It's when religion gets pressed on people in everyday life that I take umbrage - my local area, for instance, has two infant/junior schools, one of which is Catholic and the other C of E. How do you avoid religious themes being pressed upon your children in such a situation?
Oh, I agree that there are varying degrees of this intrusion, but if a person being proselytised is happy and comfortable in their non-Christian beliefs, the inability of these die-hard Christians to accept "NO" for an answer, regardless of the degree of politeness in which the "NO" is given, the ability to refrain from violence can be stretched almost to breaking point!
I have to say, if all someone is doing is preaching to you, violence isn't necessary. Threats of eternal hellfire and damnation have the same effect on me as warnings I'm about to step in unicorn-poo. It's when it's being inflicted on those without the capacity to frame a coherent rebuttal (i.e. chidren, the mentally challenged) or when it's being used as justification (or, worse, motivation with pathetic excuses as justification) for laws that limit people's lives and freedoms that we start to get real problems.
O.
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To one "O" from another "O" . . . (accompanied by a quiet childish giggle!)
This is the problem that most non-Christians will have to face sooner or later and probably continuously through life - Christians, like Sassy and a couple of others on this Forum, do not see their continual and continuous proselytising as being "ramming Christianity down other people's throats". They see it as a God(their God)-given right to preach the Gospel.
They do not see it as a, frequently unwelcome, intrusion into their lives. Oh, I agree that there are varying degrees of this intrusion, but if a person being proselytised is happy and comfortable in their non-Christian beliefs, the inability of these die-hard Christians to accept "NO" for an answer, regardless of the degree of politeness in which the "NO" is given, the ability to refrain from violence can be stretched almost to breaking point!
The trouble - as ever with monotheism - is that the Christian and Islamic scriptures demand it. The OT is content to say that YHWH is a jealous god (implying the existence of others) but there's no explicit command to proselytise, which is why in the main Jews haven't and dont. (Quite the opposite in fact - there's a tradition that a rabbi should turn away a would-be convert three times, to test their sincerity). Christianity however not only says that nobody gets to God but via Jesus, but that Christians are ordered to share the gospel with everyone.
Unfortunately not realising that it's sharing of the same order as sharing a fart in a lift - it may make you feel better, but nobody else wants to smell your shit.
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I'm not sure that people now think proselytising is considered to be the thing to do now, Shaker, amongst Christians. (I can't speak for Muslims but there is tremendous variation in Islam, some would, some wouldn't. I've certainly never been evangelised by a Muslim and have known many.)
The evangelical fervor of earlier times - ie The Great Commission - is only found in the evangelical churches and even they vary in intensity. Let's face it, if people find it a turn off, it isn't effective so there's no point. There is also more sensitivity to the individual journeys of others - and more awareness of, and interest in, non-Christian religions.
However, forums are an exception - we will always encounter evangelism on the internet! This place is mild compared to some that I encountered in the past where I, and others, were frequently called "Not proper Christians" or even "Heretics". Didn't bother me much, my choice whether or not to log to such forums and I'm capable of ignoring posts.
My purpose in being a part of a religious discussion forum has always been to engage with others who find the many subjects interesting, to share and to learn, not to push any particular pov onto someone else.
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I'm not sure that people now think proselytising is considered to be the thing to do now, Shaker, amongst Christians.
You may well be right; but in that case, isn't that at the expense of ignoring the great commission?
The evangelical fervor of earlier times - ie The Great Commission - is only found in the evangelical churches and even they vary in intensity. Let's face it, if people find it a turn off, it isn't effective so there's no point. There is also more sensitivity to the individual journeys of others - and more awareness of, and interest in, non-Christian religions.
You say that the GC is evangelical fervour of earlier times - isn't it an integral part of Christianity and what Christianity is supposed to be about/for?
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Not in my opinion, Shaker. If people are interested and ask, that's fine, but it is intrusive and - sometimes - insulting if they aren't though I will say it is never intended to offend.
Churches occasionally send out a leaflet to people in a neighbourhood/parish, giving details of what goes on and offering an invitation but any more than that is over the top.
There are also interfaith groups that meet up, rather as we do only in person, to share and learn.
Naturally we will encounter people from time to time (& often on the 'net), who feel it is their duty to 'warn' and 'save' but they are few and far between. However, as you know, I don't believe everyone who isn't a Christian is doomed and consider that to be an arrogant attitude.
There is also the fact that some of us have been quite damaged by experiences with church or 'religious' people, usually when they were young but sometimes as mature adults. So sensitivity is needed.
However that doesn't mean anyone has to compromise with their own beliefs and, where appropriate, it seems quite in order to state what you believe and be prepared to say why. Then leave it.
These are merely my opinions though, Shaker; I know there are fellow posters who feel the same as I but a few who disagree.
Just to add, my views come from experience - both myself and seeing others subjected to intense proselytising from single minded, glasses eyed individuals, even at work which would not be allowed now - and was outraged.
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On the forum I don't see it as an issue - whilst it's not precisely what I come here for, it's an understandable position on the range of responses to the general topic, and we're coming here to discuss these sorts of issues and areas. It's when religion gets pressed on people in everyday life that I take umbrage - my local area, for instance, has two infant/junior schools, one of which is Catholic and the other C of E. How do you avoid religious themes being pressed upon your children in such a situation?
I have to say, if all someone is doing is preaching to you, violence isn't necessary. Threats of eternal hellfire and damnation have the same effect on me as warnings I'm about to step in unicorn-poo. It's when it's being inflicted on those without the capacity to frame a coherent rebuttal (i.e. chidren, the mentally challenged) or when it's being used as justification (or, worse, motivation with pathetic excuses as justification) for laws that limit people's lives and freedoms that we start to get real problems.
O.
What colour is it? So I know what to avoid.
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The OT is content to say that YHWH is a jealous god (implying the existence of others) but there's no explicit command to proselytise, which is why in the main Jews haven't and dont
Ironically, there are several instructions by God to the Jews to act as witnesses to him amongst the nations amongst whom they lived. So, to say that 'there's no explicit command' as you do Shaker, is to misrepresent the Old Testament.
The fact that the Jews tended (and still tend) not to proselytise was because some influential religious leaders sought to keep the truth of God (as they understood it) to themselves, in direct contraversion of Scriptural instructions.
... but that Christians are ordered to share the gospel with everyone.
Yet nowhere in the Biublical record is there an instruction to impose one's belief (though I am fully aware that, like some others, Christians can do so). The interesting thing is that we are instructed to be ready to give an expalantion of our faith - which implies an initial question from someone.
The problem with a forum such as this is that anyone can be thought to be imposing their worldview or understanding on others, simply because of the nature of debate.
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Yet nowhere in the Biublical record is there an instruction to impose one's belief (though I am fully aware that, like some others, Christians can do so). The interesting thing is that we are instructed to be ready to give an expalantion of our faith - which implies an initial question from someone.
The problem with a forum such as this is that anyone can be thought to be imposing their worldview or understanding on others, simply because of the nature of debate.
"Impose" how? Owlswing is Wiccan, and he doesn't. Gabriella is Muslim and she doesn't.
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Yet nowhere in the Biublical record is there an instruction to impose one's belief (though I am fully aware that, like some others, Christians can do so). The interesting thing is that we are instructed to be ready to give an expalantion of our faith - which implies an initial question from someone.
The problem with a forum such as this is that anyone can be thought to be imposing their worldview or understanding on others, simply because of the nature of debate.
Another wriggle from the Forum's belly dancing champion! Anything can be said if it makes Christianity acceptable or in an attempt to refute negative comments by non-Christians!
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"Impose" how? Owlswing is Wiccan, and he doesn't. Gabriella is Muslim and she doesn't.
One can impose one's worldview in a number of ways, Shakes. At one end of the spectrum, one can tell people that X is the only way; at the other way, one can ridicule and abuse people who believe something other than that which you do.
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"Impose" how? Owlswing is Wiccan, and he doesn't. Gabriella is Muslim and she doesn't.
Thanks Shaker - again you beat me to it!
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Another wriggle from the Forum's belly dancing champion! Anything can be said if it makes Christianity acceptable or in an attempt to refute negative comments by non-Christians!
I notice that you seem to be extremely proficient in this very practice, owl.
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Thanks Shaker - again you beat me to it!
And I've beaten you to a response.
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One can impose one's worldview in a number of ways, Shakes. At one end of the spectrum, one can tell people that X is the only way; at the other way, one can ridicule and abuse people who believe something other than that which you do.
I agree with you, Hope.
Like Shaker, I haven't seen any people of non-Christian faith imposing their world view on here.
Regarding telling people that X is the only way, there are a couple who do and they are Christians but I can honestly say I haven't seen that attitude from Hope, he just shares what he believes, giving his opinion when issues arise.
Talking about your faith on a religion and ethics forum is not imposing, it's to be expected and I don't understand the need for abuse and ridicule, or shouting down. It doesn't achieve anything.
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I notice that you seem to be extremely proficient in this very practice, owl.
I have never, unlike your goodself, tried to mainpulate language to your own ends. I have never said that words do not mean what they say but something else because you do not like what they actually say and would prefer them to say what you and your beknighted church want them to say.
Like I said before your methods of trying to justify the contradictions in the teachigs of your Bible and church - you mustn't Kill, unless, of course, it is pagans, witches, adulterers et cetera ad infinitum except of course you try to excuse these anomalies by insisting that kill does not mean kill in these cases.
Just let it go Hope, you will say anything to justify your religion and its inability to follow its own rules - to the extent that if you told me that it was dark outside I would go and check just to make sure you hadn't put curtains over the windows. I wouldn't trust you to tell the truth about your religion if you were lying on a stack of bibles fifty feet high.
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What colour is .. [unicorn-poo]? So I know what to avoid.
Well, rainbow coloured, obviously! Of course, if you're not properly trained and spiritually attuned you'll miss it, because it's invisible...
O.
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One can impose one's worldview in a number of ways, Shakes. At one end of the spectrum, one can tell people that X is the only way; at the other way, one can ridicule and abuse people who believe something other than that which you do.
You do have to remember to distinguish, though, between ridiculing the believer and ridiculing the belief.
O.
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Regarding telling people that X is the only way
... which is exactly what Christianity regards itself as ...
there are a couple who do and they are Christians
And are, if nothing else, following the manual, as it were.
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One can impose one's worldview in a number of ways, Shakes. At one end of the spectrum, one can tell people that X is the only way
Which Christianity does.
at the other way, one can ridicule and abuse people who believe something other than that which you do.
It's ridicule and abuse of language to regard this as the imposition of a worldview.
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... which is exactly what Christianity regards itself as ...And are, if nothing else, following the manual, as it were.
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Any Christian who claims to be Christian can admit only One way to God, Shaker.
To do anything else would cast doubt on the Lord he/she claims.
But certain believers do go OTT - let's be charitable and call it evangelical zeal, though there are a few other less charitable epithets.)
Yet common courtesy, if nothing else, should make them stop and acknowledge as equally valid, other people's faith or non faith stance. There should be no issues engaging in polite, even friendly, discussion on faith, or any other issues - since for the Christian, faith should impact on every aspect of life.
The trick is not to ram one's belief down others' throats in a vain effort to kick them into the Kingdom.
It gets up their nose.
Frankly, it often gets up mine as well.
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Any Christian who claims to be Christian can admit only One way to God, Shaker.
So a Christian who believes that devout people of other faiths are simply following their own path to God, and that it's for God to judge if they are fit isn't a Christian in your eyes? That's a fairly hard-line stance that I'd suggest a lot of self-professed Christians would say doesn't conform to the loving, welcoming depiction of God (and Jesus) that they've come to understand.
To do anything else would cast doubt on the Lord he/she claims.
No, it would be to admit that they aren't perfect, and are operating on faith rather than knowledge, surely.
O.
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Outrider: I've already stated that I respect others' POV. However, for the Christian, there is no wriggle room. There can be but One way to God, and sharing our faith is a Gospel imperative. Note, I said 'sharing'. Whether the person to whom I share decides to accept what I share is completely up to them - equally, whether I decide to accdept their faith stance is up to me. It can only be a matter of choice. As I stated, though, some 'enthusiasts' are under the delusion that their way of communicating the faith is the only one (despirte all evidence to the contrary).
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Outrider: I've already stated that I respect others' POV.
I appreciate that, I wasn't trying to lump you in with the harassers, apologies if it came across like that.
However, for the Christian, there is no wriggle room. There can be but One way to God, and sharing our faith is a Gospel imperative.
That's your take on Christianity, to which you're entitled, but there are Christians out there who are of the opinion that the people who wrote the scriptures were as fallible as anyone else, that the specifics of the written word are questionable, and that the principle of love God and love your neighbour mean that they accept anyone's attempt to find God, by any means, to be acceptable.
Note, I said 'sharing'. Whether the person to whom I share decides to accept what I share is completely up to them - equally, whether I decide to accdept their faith stance is up to me. It can only be a matter of choice. As I stated, though, some 'enthusiasts' are under the delusion that their way of communicating the faith is the only one (despirte all evidence to the contrary).
Had one of those on the underground a few weeks ago - it's even more objectionable when they fire up for a captive audience!
O.
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Well, rainbow coloured, obviously! Of course, if you're not properly trained and spiritually attuned you'll miss it, because it's invisible...
O.
Invisible, ah. So I guess it doesn't smell either?
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Like Shaker, I haven't seen any people of non-Christian faith imposing their world view on here.
Brownie, over the years I've been here, I've seen some pretty obnoxious descriptions of both the Christian Faith and Christians - some describe Christians as brainless (or other comparable terms), as idiots, ... Some describe the Christian faith as myth, fantasy, a joke, ...
That may be a fairly subtle way of imposing one's system of belief or understanding on others (similar claims have been made of Christians, after all), but it is pretty widespread.
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Invisible, ah. So I guess it doesn't smell either?
I've not reached that level of attunement, yet, I'm waiting on the last envelope coming through the post, but I'm assured they smell of Opal Fruits.
O.
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Anchor, your last posts have been so sensible! Hee hee, I'm not saying your others haven't been but the last two, particularly, have struck me particularly.
Me: Like Shaker, I haven't seen any people of non-Christian faith imposing their world view on here.
Hope: Brownie, over the years I've been here, I've seen some pretty obnoxious descriptions of both the Christian Faith and Christians - some describe Christians as brainless (or other comparable terms), as idiots, ... Some describe the Christian faith as myth, fantasy, a joke, ...
Hope, I was talking about people of non-Christian faith, not those of no faith who do, regularly describe us as what you said and ridicule our beliefs.
('Anchor and Hope' sounds like a pub.)
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Anchor and Hope? I wouldn't darken its' doors unless it serves a decent malt.
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I've not reached that level of attunement, yet, I'm waiting on the last envelope coming through the post, but I'm assured they smell of Opal Fruits.
O.
Just as long as they aren't Opal Fruits as a ate rather a lot of those when I was younger!!! :o
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Just as long as they aren't Opal Fruits as a ate rather a lot of those when I was younger!!! :o
Starbursts, dear boy, Starbursts....
Sign of the times, innit?
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Starbursts, dear boy, Starbursts....
Sign of the times, innit?
I said when I was younger. I stopped eating them before they changed their name. They will always be Opal Fruits to me!!!!!!!
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I said when I was younger. I stopped eating them before they changed their name. They will always be Opal Fruits to me!!!!!!!
Made to make your mouth water!
Does this date me?
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Me too.
Gorgeous stuff.
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You KNOW Sweet F . .. - Sweet Fanny Adams about paganism!
As usual, unfounded allegations. I know the God who created the very things that give existence to the things paganism based on. But the things created have no power of themselves.
May be you could research and use logic to reason why I know the things you cannot even stumble over...
In fact why pretend you know anything about paganism when it is as dead as the gods and the spells it creates when the hand/finger of the living God is present. Even Pharaohs men knew when they were beaten. Because there is no power greater than the living gods.
We do not learn these things of ourselves or from our own wisdom the glory belongs to God.
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I may not share pagan beliefs, though I respect those who do. That's probably an Egyptology thing again - I came across 'Omm Sety' many years ago. She claimed to have lived as a priestess in the stunning temple of Abydos at the time of Seti I., and even in her present life, was a devotee of Amun-re and Osiris. She could have been dismissed as a crank, were it not for her very detailed knowledge of the court in late dyn XVIII and early dyn XIX Egypt - and the undeniable facts that she was able to show the location of buildings and statues which had not, at that time, been excavated. When I was at Abdju (Abydos) in 1980, I was less than a hundred yards from the shack in which she lived, but, as her health was very poor and in decline, we were advised not to disturb her. She died shortly afterward. Renowned and scholarly archaeologists respected her knowledge and skill as a draughtswoman, and valued her insights, which added to the sum of detail of that period. I wish I'd met her.
Your respect them all the way to hell. Do you think God respects you for condoning the worship of idols and false gods? Truth is, she like the girl who followed Paul.
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
A spirit of divination probably told her what she repeated.
I suppose it is a lie when he says Hebrews 9:27. King James Version
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The woman could not have lived before. Therefore you are just showing that you are out to please men not God. Being an ear tickler...
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What Anchorman said was:
I may not share pagan beliefs, though I respect those who do.
So he respects people regardless of their beliefs, but not their beliefs. I would have thought that was obvious.
We can't judge who is going to Hell, whatever that is, for goodness sakes.
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Apparently, Brownie, some are under the mistaken impression that we CAN, in fact, judge - and they seem to be apropriating power to themselves which is God's alone. The One I call LORD and God told those who follow Him to be 'in the world, but not of the world'. We can respect people as individuals (If we are Christian, we dare do no less), and respect their faith/non faith stance, whilst arguing, with respect, against it. We are told to be light and salt in the world.....not vitriol and vinegar.
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Yes!!!
It's not "ear tickling" to show a little respect for our fellow man and it is extremely insular to be cordial only with people of like mind.
More to the point, this is a Religion and Ethics forum, not an exclusively Christian forum, so everyone is welcome and if that doesn't suit, no-one is obliged to join in.
There are exclusively Christian forums. People have violent arguments on those too. (Cyber violence only of course, not sticks and stones.)
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There are exclusively Christian forums. People have violent arguments on those too. (Cyber violence only of course, not sticks and stones.)
Well that's a welcome improvement ;)
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This is me:
https://thumb1.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/165210060/517509397/stock-vector-angry-old-woman-brandishing-her-cane-senior-lady-with-glasses-shouting-517509397.jpg
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It is no surprising that MANY BELIEVERS do not act as if they believe in God or his word.
Nor do they show any real empathy for those being lost because the Christian condone false beliefs rather than tell the truth.
Christ warns when he says:-
John 8:44-45 (NIV) "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire... When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!"
No one wants to believe the truth...
1 Samuel 15:23King James Version (KJV)
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Psalm 107:11King James Version (KJV)
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
In accepting or condoning beliefs contrary to the teachings of God in his word you rebel against God and do not uphold his truth.
Nowhere in the bible does it teach a lover of truth accepts or condones that which they know to be false.
Eros and agape love. Eros the first resolves to please man and for self seeking purpose.
But agape first resolves of selfless nature to seek that which is from God and ultimately the best for all mankind through love.
Is isn't seeking to please self and mankind. Agape love is seeking the best for God and All, all the time. Christ displayed that love whilst mankind still sinners and unrepentant he died for them to the Glory of God and the salvation of all. It mattered not what they had done he chose to give us all the chance to be saved. The way and the truth is Jesus Christ.
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Starbursts, dear boy, Starbursts....
Sign of the times, innit?
No-one's seen a unicorn in a long time, and they changed the name... Coinkydink?
O.
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As usual, unfounded allegations. I know the God who created the very things that give existence to the things paganism based on. But the things created have no power of themselves.
If that's the case, why is there evidence of pagan cultures from before the big-boy's book of Jewish fairy-tales was written?
May be you could research and use logic to reason why I know the things you cannot even stumble over...
Hello, Ms. Pot? This is the kettle, I'd like to discuss your extremely high melanin count, if you've a few moments?
O.
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No-one's seen a unicorn in a long time, and they changed the name... Coinkydink?
O.
I had to look that up. Oooh you are awful!
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I know a unicorn called Snickers.
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He could do a marathon gallop.
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If that's the case, why is there evidence of pagan cultures from before the big-boy's book of Jewish fairy-tales was written?
What evidence? There is no books before the first written.
When was the first books written?
Pagan cultures are assumed NOT proved.
You see the pagans after Christ came decided to claim as much as they could changing dates and times... Oh do you see that there...Even the Roman Catholic Church set up much later than the Church established by Christ thought their pagan belief the black madonna and child could be incorporated the Jewish Messianic belief. Which they did very cleverly. But the truth is that a SON not a woman would be the messiah.
I understand you are unhappy but only the real God and his people throughout history have been the example of truth and God present with man. He kept his promises but that which creates and that which is created are not one and the same.
God and his creation the latter being the basis of paganism show God and his people go way back before any pagan beliefs. In the garden was Satan the Serpent. Where do you think he has been all these thousands of years? The Father of all lies leading men into all lies.
But the truth stands forever and eventually the old will pass and God bring in the new.
It matters not what we personally believe. The creator is the only one who matters.
Hello, Ms. Pot? This is the kettle, I'd like to discuss your extremely high melanin count, if you've a few moments?
O.
But you haven't even the basic knowledge of the Pot or it's usefulness to be able to discuss
these things. You see a pot has many uses a kettle only one.
Paganism is a one horse show. It never enters the race when it comes to God and his truth.
For it is the created not the creator.
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Made to make your mouth water!
Does this date me?
It sure dates me!!!
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As usual, unfounded allegations. I know the God who created the very things that give existence to the things paganism based on. But the things created have no power of themselves.
May be you could research and use logic to reason why I know the things you cannot even stumble over...
In fact why pretend you know anything about paganism when it is as dead as the gods and the spells it creates when the hand/finger of the living God is present. Even Pharaohs men knew when they were beaten. Because there is no power greater than the living gods.
We do not learn these things of ourselves or from our own wisdom the glory belongs to God.
I could not have asked for a better demonstration of your overwhelming pig-ignorance of Paganism!
Condemned out of your own mouth!
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What evidence? There is no books before the first written.
When was the first books written?
Pagan cultures are assumed NOT proved.
You see the pagans after Christ came decided to claim as much as they could changing dates and times... Oh do you see that there...Even the Roman Catholic Church set up much later than the Church established by Christ thought their pagan belief the black madonna and child could be incorporated the Jewish Messianic belief. Which they did very cleverly. But the truth is that a SON not a woman would be the messiah.
I understand you are unhappy but only the real God and his people throughout history have been the example of truth and God present with man. He kept his promises but that which creates and that which is created are not one and the same.
God and his creation the latter being the basis of paganism show God and his people go way back before any pagan beliefs. In the garden was Satan the Serpent. Where do you think he has been all these thousands of years? The Father of all lies leading men into all lies.
But the truth stands forever and eventually the old will pass and God bring in the new.
It matters not what we personally believe. The creator is the only one who matters.
But you haven't even the basic knowledge of the Pot or it's usefulness to be able to discuss
these things. You see a pot has many uses a kettle only one.
Paganism is a one horse show. It never enters the race when it comes to God and his truth.
For it is the created not the creator.
Oh, dear.....
Where to start?
Owl, if I get stuck in here, your thread will be more off the rails than a British rail sarnie.....
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Oh, dear.....
Where to start?
Owl, if I get stuck in here, your thread will be more off the rails than a British rail sarnie.....
I feel your pain, friend Anchorman!
You, from your posts, seem to understand where I am coming from in my dismissl of Sassy's, and others, i dea of what the words "faith" and belief" men in this context.
I have given up trying to talk sense when confronted with this kind of religious blindness and I really really MUST stop allowing myself to be baited into trying, yet again, to "discuss" my beliefs with such as Sassy and Hope.
You, at least, are prepared to dismiss my non-Christianity whilst not dismissing Paganism.
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Hope, I was talking about people of non-Christian faith, not those of no faith who do, regularly describe us as what you said and ridicule our beliefs.
('Anchor and Hope' sounds like a pub.)
I'm aware that you were referring to such people, and I can think of some who are no better than those of no-faith.
I was only re-reading an article by a Hindu journalist published in the Kathmandu Post paper back in 1999 the other day, entitled 'Profane Proselytizing'. I'm not sure what the current Nepalese Government definition of proselytizing is, but during the 1990s and early 2000s it was 'enticement to convert through the offer of physical or economic gain'. Since no self-respecting Nepalese Christian would do such things - let alone being in a financial position to do so, the various attempts by the police to have people found guilty of this never succeeded. One or two ex-pats were found guilty, though on extremely tenuous grounds, such as they offered a beggar a cup of coffee rather than money, but even they came from one of 2 or 3 groups that had, in the past, been slung out of Nepal for publishing material that enabled the less-well-off in society to learn to read and write and better themselves - not a single bit oif the material even mentioned Jesus and/or Christ and so who started at a disadvantage!!
The journo referred to above tried to make out that this was all Christians ever did in Nepal - and ironically, a different person, a devoted Hindu and a doctor, wrote a scathing letter in response - published a day or two later (but massively edited) pointing out that for the previous 45 years Christians of a variety of nationalities had been working in Nepal's health, education, economic and other fields improving the services for all.
Since we have been back in the UK, I have seen a number of 'other faith' posters, on various internet forums, denugrate and ridicule the Christian faith.
Re the pub sign, surely it would be better as the Anchor of Hope?
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Sass; Can I point out that pagan religion evolved in diverse cultures from at least 10, 000 BC? The first documents - written in stone and clay tablets - which mention belief systems fdate from c3200 in both Egypt and what is now Mesopotamia. The first mention of YHWH which is recorded in history is again in stone - dating from around 1370 BC. Do the maths. This is not to denegrate the faith I, and presumably you, hold - simply stating fact - fact borne by evidence, which I am more than willing to provide should you ask.
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Hope and Sassy are like chalk and cheese!
Owlswing, you're right to want to ignore, because it does no good to do otherwise. (Though there is a saying that it is better to be beaten than ignored.....dunno about that.)
The thread will continue - there may be Marathon Starbursts of brilliant or humourous diversions but no bad temper.
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Hope, just seen your post; I was merely talking about people on here, not anyone I've read about. For example, I've never seen Gabriella or Sririam posting anything rude to Christians.
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You, at least, are prepared to dismiss my non-Christianity whilst not dismissing Paganism.
Why would anyone dismiss paganism (though the term can have so many different meanings as to make it hard to pin down), Owl? After all, the worship of Asher or Marduk (both Mesopotamian gods) is labelled 'pagan' no more or less than the form you practise. It is precisely this thinking that encourages me to suggest that non-christian faiths are - for want of a more precise term - flawed or incomplete faiths. They tend, from what my research shows, to worship creation rather than the Creator.
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Why would anyone dismiss paganism (though the term can have so many different meanings as to make it hard to pin down), Owl? After all, the worship of Asher or Marduk (both Mesopotamian gods) is labelled 'pagan' no more or less than the form you practise.
Except that - with the possible exception of a very, very small number of people - those pagan traditions are extinct, whereas that of Owl is very much alive and kicking. Indeed, possibly even growing - Owl may know some figures here*. Certainly worship of the Mesopotamian gods was pagan, but as that tradition is extinct it's of interest only to academic historians, whereas there are numerous strands of paganism now which are living traditions with large numbers of adherents. That's why there's a distinction drawn between paleopaganism and neopaganism - the latter is alive and very well indeed, thank you very much.
It is precisely this thinking that encourages me to suggest that non-christian faiths are - for want of a more precise term - flawed or incomplete faiths.
Well of course, you're bound to say that. It's a rival 'brand' as it were. Nevertheless, you haven't explained the chain of reasoning (using the word loosely) that leads you to the conclusion that any pagan tradition is flawed or incomplete. If a religious tradition/path is flawed, what would a flawless version look like? If it's incomplete, what would a complete version be? It wouldn't happen to look just like ... your own religion by any chance, would it? Wouldn't that be an incredible coincidence!
They tend, from what my research shows, to worship creation rather than the Creator.
Worshipping what definitely exists over something never shown by anyone, anywhere, ever to exist? Seems reasonable enough to me - liking real things as I do and seeing no need or rationale for positing a creator. Especially when the thing worshipped is, entirely literally and non-metaphorically, our creator and sustainer.
When you're hungry, a real sandwich is of more value than a highly improbable and implausible sandwich predicated on some woefully bad arguments and shot through with fallacies, after all.
* A quick Google suggests that this is the case in the UK and USA.
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What evidence? There is no books before the first written.
And when pagan ritual sites from before written history have striking similarities to pagan ritual sites and practices that are documented by later cultures?
When was the first books written?
A book, as in actual pages of something - around 2400 BC, papyrus sheafs in Egypt, although the content is now illegible. The earliest written information that we still have is from around 3200 BC. Compare that to the Old Testament, the earliest elements of which were probably after 800 BC.
Pagan cultures are assumed NOT proved.
Pagan cultures are demonstrable fact. Early pagan cultures are presumed from their similarities to later, documented pagan cultures.
You see the pagans after Christ came decided to claim as much as they could changing dates and times...
What about all the pagans that were around before Christ came? You know, for instance, the ones in Britain that the Romans documented during their occupation?
Oh do you see that there...Even the Roman Catholic Church set up much later than the Church established by Christ thought their pagan belief the black madonna and child could be incorporated the Jewish Messianic belief. Which they did very cleverly. But the truth is that a SON not a woman would be the messiah.
I like a well-rounded account - that you misinterpret Catholic doctrine as much as you misinterpret history is a sign of equal-opportunities ignorance.
I understand you are unhappy but only the real God and his people throughout history have been the example of truth and God present with man. He kept his promises but that which creates and that which is created are not one and the same.
I'm not unhappy, far from it. Which 'real' god? Who are 'his people'? Isn't that the Jews?
God and his creation the latter being the basis of paganism show God and his people go way back before any pagan beliefs.
No, it shows that your beliefs make claims about the start of times, that doesn't make them any more valid than any of the other unfounded assertions.
In the garden was Satan the Serpent. Where do you think he has been all these thousands of years? The Father of all lies leading men into all lies.
I don't think he's been anywhere other than the imaginations of man and the words of books. Where do you think he's been, Sheffield?
But the truth stands forever and eventually the old will pass and God bring in the new.
That's a possibility - do you have any evidence for that, other than a highly discredited work of ancient mythic fiction?
It matters not what we personally believe. The creator is the only one who matters.
At least half right, I'll grant you that.
But you haven't even the basic knowledge of the Pot or it's usefulness to be able to discuss these things. You see a pot has many uses a kettle only one.
You've never seen a steam engine?
Paganism is a one horse show. It never enters the race when it comes to God and his truth. For it is the created not the creator.
And how do you demonstrate that we are not the creator of both?
O.
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Outrider and Shaker
Thank you both, you clearly state what I have been trying to say for ages, but my emotions at the way in which my beliefs are denigrated get in the way. I have too short a fuse (as the Mods will testify) and thus your comments are truly appreciated.
I owe the pair of you a couple of beers/glasses of mead each!
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You're on!
)○(
(I hope I got that right!).
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I think it is very sad when there is attack and denigration, as well as pointless, because it stifles anyone wanting to explain their belief. Why do it? There's no need to join a thread like this if that is your purpose, there are plenty of other threads.
This is the "Pagan Topic" and it would be very odd to have no Pagans outlining their beliefs. As it is, we are hardly awash with them.
Another thing - Owlswing wasn't preaching so wtf?
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I think it is very sad when there is attack and denigration, as well as pointless, because it stifles anyone wanting to explain their belief. Why do it? There's no need to join a thread like this if that is your purpose, there are plenty of other threads.
This is the "Pagan Topic" and it would be very odd to have no Pagans outlining their beliefs. As it is, we are hardly awash with them.
Another thing - Owlswing wasn't preaching so wtf?
Thanks B - I'll add you to the drinks list - beer, wine or mead?
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You're on!
)○(
(I hope I got that right!).
Where do we meeet up? It will have to wait until after Jan 26 (pension day)!
It is alright - it is more usually )O( - but heck, it is a minimal difference.
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Not much of a drinker these days, Owl, but quite like mulled wine, thank you. Here is the ready made version for lazy people like me: http://www.continental-wine.co.uk/images/news/large/winter-warmer-large.jpg
We discussed mead on here a while ago I think, and I fancied it at the time but the ingredients include various grains so wouldn't suit me.
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Not much of a drinker these days, Owl, but quite like mulled wine, thank you. Here is the ready made version for lazy people like me: http://www.continental-wine.co.uk/images/news/large/winter-warmer-large.jpg
We discussed mead on here a while ago I think, and I fancied it at the time but the ingredients include various grains so wouldn't suit me.
If they included grains they are NOT mead! They are an abomination called mead wine!
Look out for Moniak (dark colour) or Lindisfarne (light colour) mead - this is the real McCoy! Pure alcoholic honey!
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I'll look up the Lindisfarne mead because I like the name; always intended to go to Lindisfarne one day, it looks so hauntingly beautiful.
Done (looked it up, not been to Lindisfarne in the last few minutes)! I wonder what 'fine spirits' are? Appropriate for this thread. I think.
Looks very nice but I don't really like spirits and it may be a too strong for me. It might be a good drink to buy as a gift someone else so thanks for the tip, I will bear it in mind. If I am offered a glass in the future, I'll try.
Back to spirits of a different kind.
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I could not have asked for a better demonstration of your overwhelming pig-ignorance of Paganism!
Condemned out of your own mouth!
Give over you just refuse like so many pagans, who want to change paganism by denying and breaking away from their own evil history of human sacrifice of their own children and such things.
Paganism has a wide and diverse definition but you have laugh when people like you claim to have the elite knowledge of paganism. The very fact you cannot even begin to understand that without creation paganism is none existent.
You see paganism can be summed up in that it worships and relates to that which is created. You can insult and you can create as much attempts to malign as you like. But the forces of nature are part of creation. Without nature without that which is created you would have paganism to follow. It is a simple fact and it won't change because it is those forces on which everything that paganism is about and relies on.
paganism
ˈpeɪɡ(ə)nɪz(ə)m/
noun
a religion other than one of the main world religions, specifically a non-Christian or pre-Christian religion.
"converts from paganism to Christianity"
a modern religious movement incorporating beliefs or practices from outside the main world religions, especially nature worship.
"modern paganism includes a respect for mother earth"
pagan
ˈpeɪɡ(ə)n/
noun
1.
a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.
"a Muslim majority had to live in close proximity to large communities of Christians and pagans"
synonyms: heathen, infidel, idolater/idolatress, atheist, non-theist, irreligious person, agnostic, sceptic, heretic, apostate; archaicpaynim
"in prehistoric times, pagans used to worship the sun gods"
adjective
1.
relating to pagans or their beliefs.
"a pagan god"
Yes, I do know about paganism and the fact it holds no power.
There is only one source of power after Gods own power and that is SATAN.
Think on before you start the next argument/post because truth does not change and Christ is the Son of God the one true God who created what you believe in.
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There is only one source of power after Gods own power and that is SATAN.
This coming from you is rich!
The Christian God is omnipotent!
Satan operates in God's world!
How?
Because God ALLOWS him to do so!
What an arsehole your God is!
Pagans believe in personal responsibility for their actions. We DO NOT blame a litlle red man with horns and a forked tail sitting on our shoulder telling us to do bad/wrong things. IF we do bad things it is because we made a wrong decision and we do not ask our deity to forgive us (via some bloke in a frock) so we can go out and do it again and again and repeat the process ad infinitum!
This cycle is part of the hypocrisy of Christians and Christianity.
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OY! Don't lump all who claim Christ as LORD and God into one pile, Owl! Some of us, whilst recognising the uniqueness of Christ, nevertheless acknowlledge others' belief.....and the fact that paganism predated any reference to YHWH in any document.....regardless of what certain.....er......enthusiasts (for want of a less complimentary term) might say!
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Absolutely Anchorman (#182) and,
Owlswing (#13), don't bite. There is an "ignore" facility on here which I came across the other day whilst looking at user control panel.
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OY! Don't lump all who claim Christ as LORD and God into one pile, Owl! Some of us, whilst recognising the uniqueness of Christ, nevertheless acknowlledge others' belief.....and the fact that paganism predated any reference to YHWH in any document.....regardless of what certain.....er......enthusiasts (for want of a less complimentary term) might say!
OY don't bite until you've been bitten - I specifiically responded to Sassy! NO-ONE ELSE WAS/IS INVOLVED!
Anchorman - PLEASE IGNORE! Unnercessary comment! Apologies!
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I wasn't meaning Anchor, Owl, when I said, (words to the effect), "Don't bite - ignore".
Still I expect he knows what we all mean .... hope so.
We move on - onwards and upwards, hopefully.
(Just finished reading, "Midwinter of the Spirit", which is not about paganism but touches on a group of rather benign, interesting pagans in a rural area. The Vicar's daughter joins them.)
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I wasn't meaning Anchor, Owl, when I said, (words to the effect), "Don't bite - ignore".
Still I expect he knows what we all mean .... hope so.
We move on - onwards and upwards, hopefully.
(Just finished reading, "Midwinter of the Spirit", which is not about paganism but touches on a group of rather benign, interesting pagans in a rural area. The Vicar's daughter joins them.)
Sorry Brownie, and Anchorman too!
It looks like I have made a complete 'horlicks' again!
I took Anchorman's "Oy" post to be directed at my comments and not yours.
Please, Brownie and Anchorman, could you please reference exactly which posts you are responding to? It will help dopes and idiots like me not to mix up who is answering what!
Sometimes Message Boards are not for the senile and/or the intellectually challenged!
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I think it was my post that misled you, Owl, sorry; I've altered it to reference which posts I was referring to.
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I think it was my post that misled you, Owl, sorry; I've altered it to reference which posts I was referring to.
Thanks!
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OY! Don't lump all who claim Christ as LORD and God into one pile, Owl! Some of us, whilst recognising the uniqueness of Christ, nevertheless acknowlledge others' belief.....and the fact that paganism predated any reference to YHWH in any document.....regardless of what certain.....er......enthusiasts (for want of a less complimentary term) might say!
Name the documents and when published.
You see the references to paganism which YOU and others believe predate are just guess work.
Truth is there is NO evidence of anything predating GOD.
And you wonder why you don't have a living faith???
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Name the documents and when published. You see the references to paganism which YOU and others believe predate are just guess work. Truth is there is NO evidence of anything predating GOD. And you wonder why you don't have a living faith???
How many documents do you want me to name? Archaeologically speaking, a document is a record in a medium such as stone, wood, clay tablet, etc, which records an event or makes a point. There are literally thousands of statues of Egyptian protodeities dating from c3400-3100. Rock carvings record recognisable Egyptian deities suchh as Horus, Nefertum, Hathor, Nut, Geb, etc, dating from the Naqada II and III periods shortly before the unification of Egypt c3100BC. Dockets and tags from the dyn 0 and dyn I tombs at Abydos name deities (or vinyards and granaries associated with their cults, to be exact, showing these cults to be established economic enterprises) from c3100 BC. Do you wish me to list the deities mentioned in Archaic Period texts, or the many 'Pyramid texts' of the sixth dynasty? I'm prepared to do so, should ypu so wish. If you genuinley wish to research the development of religion in Archaic and predynastic Egypt, here's a great place to start. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyrihttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri
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Given my previous post, Sass, I fail to understand wghy you are unable to grasp that many Egyptologists in the field have - and had - faith, and many of them were very committed Christians (saome are today!) Dealing with incontrovertable evidence of the formation of a nation-state with its own - many - religions is not in any way conflicting the belief in God - Christ Jesus, God Incarnate. Besides, there was never one overarching form of religion in Egypt - not even in classic Pharonic times. The Greeks made a hash of standardising it, and that particular chestnut has bediviled those researching the subject ever since. That's why Egypt was open to Greek thought, and indeed Jewish influence. That's why Egypt was perfectly happy to allow two (possibly three) full blown Temples to YHWH at various times. And that's why Egypt became the first nation to embrace Christianity. Openness is good, Sass. Ideas are good as well. It's perfectly possible to study both without compromising ones own faith....and incidentally not being judgemental about it.
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How many documents do you want me to name? Archaeologically speaking, a document is a record in a medium such as stone, wood, clay tablet, etc, which records an event or makes a point. There are literally thousands of statues of Egyptian protodeities dating from c3400-3100. Rock carvings record recognisable Egyptian deities suchh as Horus, Nefertum, Hathor, Nut, Geb, etc, dating from the Naqada II and III periods shortly before the unification of Egypt c3100BC. Dockets and tags from the dyn 0 and dyn I tombs at Abydos name deities (or vinyards and granaries associated with their cults, to be exact, showing these cults to be established economic enterprises) from c3100 BC. Do you wish me to list the deities mentioned in Archaic Period texts, or the many 'Pyramid texts' of the sixth dynasty? I'm prepared to do so, should ypu so wish. If you genuinley wish to research the development of religion in Archaic and predynastic Egypt, here's a great place to start. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyrihttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri
A far more erudite explanation than that which I have been trying to compose - Anchorman, my weary braincells thank you!
As a PS - I find it very hard to come to terms with the fact, for, in this case, fact it is, that both you and the Ultra's actually follow the same religion! You seem to be about as far apart as Donald Trump and the bare minimum of intelliigence required to sustain life!
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How many documents do you want me to name? Archaeologically speaking, a document is a record in a medium such as stone, wood, clay tablet, etc, which records an event or makes a point. There are literally thousands of statues of Egyptian protodeities dating from c3400-3100. Rock carvings record recognisable Egyptian deities suchh as Horus, Nefertum, Hathor, Nut, Geb, etc, dating from the Naqada II and III periods shortly before the unification of Egypt c3100BC. Dockets and tags from the dyn 0 and dyn I tombs at Abydos name deities (or vinyards and granaries associated with their cults, to be exact, showing these cults to be established economic enterprises) from c3100 BC. Do you wish me to list the deities mentioned in Archaic Period texts, or the many 'Pyramid texts' of the sixth dynasty? I'm prepared to do so, should ypu so wish. If you genuinley wish to research the development of religion in Archaic and predynastic Egypt, here's a great place to start. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyrihttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri
yOU HAVE NO IDEA DO YOU/. Abrahams Father was a statue maker.
Yes he made graven images, idols...
The jews stories include Abraham telling his Father that there was only one God so why make
so many different idols and sell them.
One night Abram took an hammer and smashed all the idols into pieces but one and left the hammer with it. When his Father came in and found all the idols smashed up he was enraged and questioned who could do such a thing. Abram blamed the idol remaining to which his Father replied... " The idol could not have done it, it cannot move or speak"
Hence idols do not prove that something is older than the true God.
Are you saying Anchorman that Abraham,Adam and God didn't exist before all the idols and false gods came into existence?
Remember if you answer YES to that you CALL GOD A LIAR.
Still think you can fool God. So which is it? God or paganism came first?
You see all writing and idols made by man. Man was made by God so God came first.
Any human could understand that.
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Sass, are you OK? Of course Egyptian religion existed before the time of Abraham! If you think about it, you'll see just what a daft question that is! And since God is pre-existant, the rest of your point is moot. As for Adam? I'm not a YEC - ask them. The rest of us Christians are happy with a paradigm Adam at a point in history which is yet to be determined. That Egyptian, Mesopotamian and some Hellenic as well as Asiatic religions existed before any Scripture was written is not in dispute. That the Pentateuch is not a historical document, but a theiogical treatise heavily edited in the sixth century BC (and no less valued as theology for all that) is also accepted by most scholars - Christian thinkers as well. Now, if you want to have a thread about religion in the Ancient world, go ahead - I'll jump in. Meanwhile, try thinking before posting. Thanks.
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Meanwhile, try thinking before posting. Thanks.
A step to far probably!
But then if you believe in miracles.............who knows?