Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Sassy on October 09, 2016, 11:11:12 AM
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2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it;
that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Jesus kept the Sabbath day and NEVER changed it. He said "
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Which means Jesus kept the Sabbath day Holy.
So which is the Sabbath day we are to prserve and keep Holy.
Christ spoke the truth when he said they would no longer worship on the mountain or in Jerusalem for the true
worshippers worship in Spirit and Truth. Whilst Paul said no one day more important than another, I believe it was in relation
to the true worshippers always praising God every day in their hearts and lives.
Holy periods are times of rest and we are still to observe the Sabbaths rest.
However Christ has not done away with the teachings of the Prophets or the Laws so the Sabbath rests must be kept.
I believe the Sabbath never changed and Christ never changed keeping the Sabbath day Holy.
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So why do Christians pretend it's Sunday?
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What is there to praise about the Biblical god?
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So why do Christians pretend it's Sunday?
All the feasts and Sabbaths which are days to refrain from the usual days routine could be seen as just that, days of rest. But the main Sabbath day was Friday night to Saturday evening.
This was thee Sabbath Day. Christ never changed it and man adopted Sunday as a day of rest as Christ completed his work that day.
But he too kept the Sabbath hence he never rose or completed his work on that day.
We should not lose sight of the fact that God made the Sabbath for the good of man, not man for the Sabbath. Hence it is okay to dig your cow out of a well or help your neighbour in the Sabbath day. :D
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(((((But he too kept the Sabbath hence he never rose or completed his work on that day.)))))
Do you mean Jesus never got out of bed on the sabbath?
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2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it;
that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Jesus kept the Sabbath day and NEVER changed it. He said "
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Which means Jesus kept the Sabbath day Holy.
So which is the Sabbath day we are to prserve and keep Holy.
Christ spoke the truth when he said they would no longer worship on the mountain or in Jerusalem for the true
worshippers worship in Spirit and Truth. Whilst Paul said no one day more important than another, I believe it was in relation
to the true worshippers always praising God every day in their hearts and lives.
Holy periods are times of rest and we are still to observe the Sabbaths rest.
However Christ has not done away with the teachings of the Prophets or the Laws so the Sabbath rests must be kept.
I believe the Sabbath never changed and Christ never changed keeping the Sabbath day Holy.
So why do you:
1. Observe the Sabbath on a different day outwith of wha was originally ordained by your deity?
2. No longer kill people who don't observe the Sabbath?
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I take the view that what people do with Sunday is a matter for them and that options should not be unduly restricted because some regard it as 'holy'. So, apart from time spent here, my plans include spending some time in the bookies and I know that Mrs G plans to do the weekly shop this evening (no Sunday trading restrictons here), so my trolley-pushing skills will be required later.
If some want to do some religious stuff I have no objections to that whatsoever: it is none of my business how they choose to spend their time.
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Sunday is a day on which people should do their own thing, religious or otherwise, if they don't have to work that day.
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So why do you:
1. Observe the Sabbath on a different day outwith of wha was originally ordained by your deity?
I don't observe the Sabbath on a different day. The true Sabbath will always be the Friday to Saturday. But believer celebrate the resurrection of Christ as being a day of salvation.
But the true worshipper worships in Spirit and Truth they live every day knowing God and the truth.
2. No longer kill people who don't observe the Sabbath?
Christ changed that himself... "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Now Satan has been judged and Christ has died so the New Covenant not like the old is set up. Then only God and Christ can judge those who now break the laws and the Sabbath.
Do you suggest people should ignore God and Christ to follow your suggestion?
So when you bring these things up, why not go and find the answers for yourself.
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So why do Christians pretend it's Sunday?
We don't. Saturday is still referred to as the Sabbath in our liturgical books. Christians simply don't keep the Sabbath. Instead we keep the Lord's Day, the day of the week our Lord rose from the dead and this is in imitation of the Apostles who also gathered on the Lord's Day.
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I believe the Sabbath never changed and Christ never changed keeping the Sabbath day Holy.
But remember what the Sabbath commemorated, Sass. It was the 7th day of the week, when God rested.
The early church chose to change the day because they wished to remember the 1st day of the week, when Jesus rose from the grave.
So why do Christians pretend it's Sunday?
Christians have never pretended that it is Sunday, jeremy. As pointed out above, the early church chose to remember a different day of the week which held different memories.
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But remember what the Sabbath commemorated, Sass. It was the 7th day of the week, when God rested.
The early church chose to change the day because they wished to remember the 1st day of the week, when Jesus rose from the grave.
Christians have never pretended that it is Sunday, jeremy. As pointed out above, the early church chose to remember a different day of the week which held different memories.
Why would an omnipotent god need to rest, that is a very human need?
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I'd go a tad further. The early church venerated the first day of the week as it commemorated the Resurrection; it also distanced themselves from being seen - as they were - as a somewhat eccentric scion of Judaism.
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What is there to praise about the Biblical god?
There is more to praise 'about' the Biblical God than all there is to praise the human race for, Floo.
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Why would an omnipotent god need to rest, that is a very human need?
You'll need to ask the Jews whose belief this is, but I suspect that it is an exemplar teaching - something that any good teacher will use quite regularly.
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But remember what the Sabbath commemorated, Sass. It was the 7th day of the week, when God rested.
We have no reason to believe it isn't the same as the Jews celebrate today.
It is a day we need to think about upkeeping.
The early church chose to change the day because they wished to remember the 1st day of the week, when Jesus rose from the grave.
Christians have never pretended that it is Sunday, jeremy. As pointed out above, the early church chose to remember a different day of the week which held different memories.
The sabbath can never be changed. Christ did not come to do away with the Law or teachings of the Prophets. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Christ never changed it and never at any time wanted anyone to keep from keeping the Sabbath day holy. 56 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
The true meaning is as you say the 7th day God rested.
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Ah, I'd almost forgotten that God only communicates with His followers in Ja cobean English......
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We have no reason to believe it isn't the same as the Jews celebrate today.
It is a day we need to think about upkeeping.
Actually, Sass, we have a considerable body of evidence to show that it is a different day. If you read the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, you will find it pretty clearly. After all, the day of the execution was the day before the sabbath (which is why there was a need to bury the body so quickly so as not to be seen to be 'working' on the Sabbath), and the 3rd day on which Jesus rose would therefore have been the day after the Sabbath.
The sabbath can never be changed. Christ did not come to do away with the Law or teachings of the Prophets. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The church didn't change the Sabbath; rather they changed the day that they celebrated the events of the resuurection. The Sabbath still exists, but in Judaism, rather than in Christianity.
The true meaning is as you say the 7th day God rested.
And I think you will agree that the resurrection of Jesus sort of supercedes that day he rested - at least for the Christian.
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Actually, Sass, we have a considerable body of evidence to show that it is a different day. If you read the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, you will find it pretty clearly. After all, the day of the execution was the day before the sabbath (which is why there was a need to bury the body so quickly so as not to be seen to be 'working' on the Sabbath), and the 3rd day on which Jesus rose would therefore have been the day after the Sabbath.
The church didn't change the Sabbath; rather they changed the day that they celebrated the events of the resuurection. The Sabbath still exists, but in Judaism, rather than in Christianity.
And I think you will agree that the resurrection of Jesus sort of supercedes that day he rested - at least for the Christian.
Hope,
Did you miss this post of mine,
All the feasts and Sabbaths which are days to refrain from the usual days routine could be seen as just that, days of rest. But the main Sabbath day was Friday night to Saturday evening.
This was thee Sabbath Day. Christ never changed it and man adopted Sunday as a day of rest as Christ completed his work that day.
But he too kept the Sabbath hence he never rose or completed his work on that day.
We should not lose sight of the fact that God made the Sabbath for the good of man, not man for the Sabbath. Hence it is okay to dig your cow out of a well or help your neighbour in the Sabbath day. :D
The Sabbath day is not superceded by the day Christ rose.
Christ clearly stated his work was completed on the Friday.
"It is Finished"....
The seventh day he rested. Sundown Friday till Sun down Saturday. When they went to the grave first light Sunday Morning he was not there.
Christ would not have risen on the Sabbath day but he did rise on the Sunday.
But the days are immaterial in that it was the death and resurrection which counted.
Jesus is the Son of God and we are told in Isaiah that the Sabbath day is to be kept Holy even after the Son of Man has come. No day is more important than another. But the Sabbath day is to be kept Holy.
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So what's the score then, Sass?
You said...
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
You also said...
However Christ has not done away with the teachings of the Prophets or the Laws
When asked about the law of killing people for working on the Sabbath, you said...
Christ changed that himself
So, despite your earlier utterances about Jesus not doing away with the laws, you're also saying that he did.
Please can you clear up the confusion here as you seem to be contradicting yourself.
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We should not lose sight of the fact that God made the Sabbath for the good of man, not man for the Sabbath. Hence it is okay to dig your cow out of a well or help your neighbour in the Sabbath day. :D
Ah, that's where picking up sticks man went wrong.
He should have reminded the Bible god that the Sabbath was made for the good of man. Maybe if he'd given the examples you give anove, Yaweh would have spared his life.
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So what's the score then, Sass?
You said...
You also said...
When asked about the law of killing people for working on the Sabbath, you said...
So, despite your earlier utterances about Jesus not doing away with the laws, you're also saying that he did.
Please can you clear up the confusion here as you seem to be contradicting yourself.
Are you really sure you should be asking questions you do not understand the answer to?
Khatru
2. No longer kill people who don't observe the Sabbath?
Christ changed that himself... "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Now Satan has been judged and Christ has died so the New Covenant not like the old is set up. Then only God and Christ can judge those who now break the laws and the Sabbath.
Do you suggest people should ignore God and Christ to follow your suggestion?
So when you bring these things up, why not go and find the answers for yourself.
John 4 shows the Jews even Samaritans knew there were different beliefs by the Pharisees and Sadducees and Jesus was to GIVE THE CORRECT TEACHINGS.
"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Christ fulfilled the teachings and the laws. He also pointed out that anyone who breaks one law breaks them all.King James Bible
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Hence no one can punish another now for any sin because only God and Christ can judge now.
Everyone has sinned not one but Christ is innocent from sin. And so only he has the right to judge another person and put them to death.
If you don't know the bible should you really be asking?
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Are you really sure you should be asking questions you do not understand the answer to?
Typical of your religion to discourage questioning. Mindless obedience is all, eh?
Christ changed that himself... "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
He was addressing the crowd who were going to kill the woman caught in adultery. Were they going to kill the man too? There wasn't much said about him.
Christ fulfilled the teachings and the laws. He also pointed out that anyone who breaks one law breaks them all.
So everytime you wear mixed fabrics you're breaking ALL the laws and when Jesus comes back you'll be punished. Looks like you're going into the fire, Sass.
Hence no one can punish another now for any sin because only God and Christ can judge now.
So when someone kills, steals or wears mixed fabrics, Jesus and God don't want us to punish them?
Everyone has sinned not one but Christ is innocent from sin. And so only he has the right to judge another person and put them to death.
Put them to death? What happened to all that "love your enemy as if he was yourself" schtick? Looks like Jesus lacks the conviction of his own words.
If you don't know the bible should you really be asking?
There you go again, discouraging questioning. Ever the actions of someone who knows their religion won't stand up to scrutiny.
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Typical of your religion to discourage questioning. Mindless obedience is all, eh?
He was addressing the crowd who were going to kill the woman caught in adultery. Were they going to kill the man too? There wasn't much said about him.
So everytime you wear mixed fabrics you're breaking ALL the laws and when Jesus comes back you'll be punished. Looks like you're going into the fire, Sass.
So when someone kills, steals or wears mixed fabrics, Jesus and God don't want us to punish them?
Put them to death? What happened to all that "love your enemy as if he was yourself" schtick? Looks like Jesus lacks the conviction of his own words.
There you go again, discouraging questioning. Ever the actions of someone who knows their religion won't stand up to scrutiny.
Khatru
from: Sassy on October 12, 2016, 08:48:45 PM
Are you really sure you should be asking questions you do not understand the answer to?
Typical of your religion to discourage questioning. Mindless obedience is all, eh?
How does your ignorance (which is yet again show fact by the post I wrote) relate to my own beliefs? If anything my post has answered and shown why you are ignorant.
All you have done is shown that you once again have no answer just throw an insult and hope no one else notices. We answer your questions you just don't like the answers because you cannot provide answers back as you haven't a clue about the conversation.
Khatru
from: Sassy on October 12, 2016, 08:48:45 PM
Christ changed that himself... "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
He was addressing the crowd who were going to kill the woman caught in adultery. Were they going to kill the man too? There wasn't much said about him.
Another red herring...the man had nothing to do with the fact of what Christ taught.
They were going to kill the woman in adultery because the laws said this.
King James Bible
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
So now Christ has come the Messiah and the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34.
He tells them that a person who is guilty of one sin is guilty of breaking the whole law.. did you not read the post fully? And if guilty of one it matters not which then all guilty and the penalty of sin is death. So he says the well known phrase. The crowd disappear and no one but Christ left. His words to her when no one is left to accuse her, " I do not condemn you either, go but do not sin again.
You see how not knowing the bible causes you to write constantly without understanding or truth. I
xxxx
Quote from: Sassy on October 12, 2016, 08:48:45 PM
Christ fulfilled the teachings and the laws. He also pointed out that anyone who breaks one law breaks them all.
So everytime you wear mixed fabrics you're breaking ALL the laws and when Jesus comes back you'll be punished. Looks like you're going into the fire, Sass.
Quote from: Sassy on October 12, 2016, 08:48:45 PM
Hence no one can punish another now for any sin because only God and Christ can judge now.
So when someone kills, steals or wears mixed fabrics, Jesus and God don't want us to punish them?
Quote from: Sassy on October 12, 2016, 08:48:45 PM
Everyone has sinned not one but Christ is innocent from sin. And so only he has the right to judge another person and put them to death.
Put them to death? What happened to all that "love your enemy as if he was yourself" schtick? Looks like Jesus lacks the conviction of his own words.
Quote from: Sassy on October 12, 2016, 08:48:45 PM
If you don't know the bible should you really be asking?
There you go again, discouraging questioning. Ever the actions of someone who knows their religion won't stand up to scrutiny.
Whose Covenant is that? The Covenant God made with the Israelites through Moses, hey?
Had you known your bible you would know this truth which is the truth about the new covenant
with the Messiah/Jesus Christ which is not like the old covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-34King James Version (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
You can see if you knew anything about Christ the Messiah and the New Covenant that you would not ask questions which are already answered in the bible. Now Christ has brought the new covenant in and the sins for those who believe forgiven. As the word says.. Only Christ and God can forgive sinners their sins. Those like yourself who are sinners cannot and never will be able to judge others when full of sin yourself.
So why ask silly questions when the covenant is not like the old covenant of the Israelites.
That was there covenant and we and the gentiles are all in one new covenant. Not like the old the last verse explains why.
Isaiah 54:17 kjv
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.
The New Covenant are people who are righteous by the truth of God in Christ Jesus. The New Covenant which is clearly explained will NOT be like the old covenant. Now we have settled this. Now you know the Covenant is not like the old.
Perhaps you will speak the truth and not ask questions which apply only to the old covenant with the Israelties.
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Typical of your religion to discourage questioning. Mindless obedience is all, eh?
How does your ignorance (which is yet again show fact by the post I wrote) relate to my own beliefs? If anything my post has answered and shown why you are ignorant.
All you have done is shown that you once again have no answer just throw an insult and hope no one else notices. We answer your questions you just don't like the answers because you cannot provide answers back as you haven't a clue about the conversation.
He was addressing the crowd who were going to kill the woman caught in adultery. Were they going to kill the man too? There wasn't much said about him.
Another red herring...the man had nothing to do with the fact of what Christ taught.
They were going to kill the woman in adultery because the laws said this.
King James Bible
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
So now Christ has come the Messiah and the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34.
He tells them that a person who is guilty of one sin is guilty of breaking the whole law.. did you not read the post fully? And if guilty of one it matters not which then all guilty and the penalty of sin is death. So he says the well known phrase. The crowd disappear and no one but Christ left. His words to her when no one is left to accuse her, " I do not condemn you either, go but do not sin again.
You see how not knowing the bible causes you to write constantly without understanding or truth. I
xxxxWhose Covenant is that? The Covenant God made with the Israelites through Moses, hey?
Had you known your bible you would know this truth which is the truth about the new covenant
with the Messiah/Jesus Christ which is not like the old covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-34King James Version (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
You can see if you knew anything about Christ the Messiah and the New Covenant that you would not ask questions which are already answered in the bible. Now Christ has brought the new covenant in and the sins for those who believe forgiven. As the word says.. Only Christ and God can forgive sinners their sins. Those like yourself who are sinners cannot and never will be able to judge others when full of sin yourself.
So why ask silly questions when the covenant is not like the old covenant of the Israelites.
That was there covenant and we and the gentiles are all in one new covenant. Not like the old the last verse explains why.
Isaiah 54:17 kjv
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.
The New Covenant are people who are righteous by the truth of God in Christ Jesus. The New Covenant which is clearly explained will NOT be like the old covenant. Now we have settled this. Now you know the Covenant is not like the old.
Perhaps you will speak the truth and not ask questions which apply only to the old covenant with the Israelties.
Your above response falls within the scope of the third and eigth examples on my "Christian Cop Out List"
I don't understand because I need to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
I don't understand because I need to view it from a child's perspective
I don't understand because I'm not a "true Christian"
I don't understand because I'm not a biblical scholar
I don't understand because I took the scripture out of context.
I don't understand because it means something other than what it actually says
I don't understand because it's an allegory
I don't understand because my mind is far too feeble to comprehend your god's truth
I don't understand because I've not been filled with the holy spirit
Then of course, we have the "we're not supposed to understand it because God works in mysterious ways"
All of the above are used by believers in their efforts to defend the contradiction and error found throughout the Bible. I have no doubt you've used them all before.
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Khatru,
You keeping taking things out of context and furthermore, you now know how wrong you have been and how false your assertions have been.
I take it that you do not want to discuss further as you will continually find that you are unable to defend your stance in the face of the truthful facts neglected by yourself concerning the bible.
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Khatru,
You keeping taking things out of context and furthermore, you now know how wrong you have been and how false your assertions have been.
I take it that you do not want to discuss further as you will continually find that you are unable to defend your stance in the face of the truthful facts neglected by yourself concerning the bible.
I'm sure you'll appreciate that I see it as you retreating behind a wall of myth and magic whenever you're unable to refute the biblical errors and contradictions that are pointed out. Still, not to worry as I intend to carry on pointing them out.
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I'm sure you'll appreciate that I see it as you retreating behind a wall of myth and magic whenever you're unable to refute the biblical errors and contradictions that are pointed out. Still, not to worry as I intend to carry on pointing them out.
No! you don't see what you have said that way.
Nor can you when we were discussing matters of the bible teachings which you got wrong.
So excuses are no available to you to hide behind because they make no impact on what we actually discussed.
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No! you don't see what you have said that way.
Nor can you when we were discussing matters of the bible teachings which you got wrong.
So excuses are no available to you to hide behind because they make no impact on what we actually discussed.
Hmmm
Looks like the fifth and sixth cop-outs on the following list:
I don't understand because I need to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
I don't understand because I need to view it from a child's perspective
I don't understand because, unlike you, I'm not a "true Christian"
I don't understand because I'm not a biblical scholar
I don't understand because I took the scripture out of context.
I don't understand because it means something other than what it actually says
I don't understand because it's an allegory
I don't understand because my mind is far too feeble to comprehend your god's truth
I don't understand because I've not been filled with the holy spirit
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Hmmm
Looks like the fifth and sixth cop-outs on the following list:
I don't understand because I need to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
I don't understand because I need to view it from a child's perspective
I don't understand because, unlike you, I'm not a "true Christian"
I don't understand because I'm not a biblical scholar
I don't understand because I took the scripture out of context.
I don't understand because it means something other than what it actually says
I don't understand because it's an allegory
I don't understand because my mind is far too feeble to comprehend your god's truth
I don't understand because I've not been filled with the holy spirit
Well taking anything out of context is a pretty daft action, Khat - and doing so will often result in the sixth consequence. As for 'cop-out', unfortunately even in British law, ignorance isn't really a defence.
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Sass, a question. Bearing in mind the roles that the religious leaders had/have to fulfil on a Sabbath, could they be deemed to be breaking the Sabbath laws? Furthermore, how many of the laws regarding the Jewish Sabbath were introduced by the religious leaders over time??
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Sass, a question. Bearing in mind the roles that the religious leaders had/have to fulfil on a Sabbath, could they be deemed to be breaking the Sabbath laws? Furthermore, how many of the laws regarding the Jewish Sabbath were introduced by the religious leaders over time??
The Sabbath was made for the good of man. Christ pointed out to Jews about the Sabbath and some of their man made rituals.
Read Matthew 12. We are not talking about the man made religious beliefs. We are talking about what God taught.
The answer is simple in that God did not make man for the sabbath he made the sabbath so man could rest from his work.
For his own good. David and his men ate the meat in the Temple, even. Christ is like david they have living relationships with God. Just as Christians have living relationships with God.
Just as those who do the right things in Gods sight are acceptable to him.
Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath. He kept the sabbath day but doing good works is not to stop because it is the sabbath.
Because good works like the sabbath was ordained by God for the good of man.
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The so called 'sabbath' is a very human creation.
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Well taking anything out of context is a pretty daft action, Khat - and doing so will often result in the sixth consequence. As for 'cop-out', unfortunately even in British law, ignorance isn't really a defence.
Most of the time, when someone accuses me of taking something out of context, they invariably fail to explain why it's out of context.
Of course, I've encountered many a believer who cherry-picks pieces of scripture when it suits their purpose.
"The fool hath said in his heart "There is no god"."
That's one which they often wheel out, all the time omitting to quote the second sentence of that verse which blows their case right out of the water.
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Most of the time, when someone accuses me of taking something out of context, they invariably fail to explain why it's out of context.
Of course, I've encountered many a believer who cherry-picks pieces of scripture when it suits their purpose.
"The fool hath said in his heart "There is no god"."
That's one which they often wheel out, all the time omitting to quote the second sentence of that verse which blows their case right out of the water.
It should read, 'but god is a fool for not making its presence irrefutable!'
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Most of the time, when someone accuses me of taking something out of context, they invariably fail to explain why it's out of context.
Like you, I've come across many people, including some here, who can't or who refuse to explain why thy feel that something has been taken out of context, but I've also met several folk - again some here, who are meticulous in their explanations.
Of course, I've encountered many a believer who cherry-picks pieces of scripture when it suits their purpose.
"The fool hath said in his heart "There is no god"."
That's one which they often wheel out, all the time omitting to quote the second sentence of that verse which blows their case right out of the water.
Not sure why the second sentence "blows their case right out of the water", Khat. After all, it is talking about the people who say that there is no God. Ironically, I have heard more people use this quote to support their decision to disbelieve in God, than anyone else.
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It should read, 'but god is a fool for not making its presence irrefutable!'
So, you don't want people to have the option of making up their own minds, preferring a robotic response, Floo?
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Ironically, I have heard more people use this quote to support their decision to disbelieve in God, than anyone else.
Does that apply to anyone here?
I'm struggling to think of anyone here who has made a 'decision to disbelieve in God' - rejecting the arguments for God as advanced by theists is not equivalent to actively 'disbelieving' since, it seems to me, the arguments I reject are, by dint of being either incoherent or fallacious, not something I need take seriously beyond just dismissing them.
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Does that apply to anyone here?
'ere we go again.......Nothing applies to anybody around here does it?
Of course it does.
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'ere we go again.......Nothing applies to anybody around here does it?
Of course it does.
Do tell.
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Does that apply to anyone here?
I wouldn't include the kind of rejection you refer to below in the category I previously referred to, Gordon - so, no it doesn't knowingly include anyone here.
I'm struggling to think of anyone here who has made a 'decision to disbelieve in God' - rejecting the arguments for God as advanced by theists is not equivalent to actively 'disbelieving' since, it seems to me, the arguments I reject are, by dint of being either incoherent or fallacious, not something I need take seriously beyond just dismissing them.
I suspect that many here who disagree with you may reject your opinion for much the same reasons - fallacy and incoherence.
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I wouldn't include the kind of rejection you refer to below in the category I previously referred to, Gordon - so, no it doesn't knowingly include anyone here.
Then why mention it here if it doesn't apply to anyone here.
I suspect that many here who disagree with you may reject your opinion for much the same reasons - fallacy and incoherence.
Then feel free to point what fallacies I've committed. Examples would be useful.
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So, you don't want people to have the option of making up their own minds, preferring a robotic response, Floo?
Oh come on, another excuse for the failings of the Biblical god!
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Most of the time, when someone accuses me of taking something out of context, they invariably fail to explain why it's out of context.
RUBBISH... you haven't the ability to understand the scriptures or the New Testament in a believers knowledge of truth.
Hence you would have encountered the truth of John 16:13.
John 16:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The believers knowledge is not left to chance they are taught by the Spirit so their knowledge is going to be truth and yours is still in the field of misunderstanding.
Of course, I've encountered many a believer who cherry-picks pieces of scripture when it suits their purpose.
"The fool hath said in his heart "There is no god"."
That's one which they often wheel out, all the time omitting to quote the second sentence of that verse which blows their case right out of the water.
King James Bible
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
It isn't difficult, actions speak louder than words. How do you know when someone shows they do not believe in God?
Corruption, hateful works, and no good works done. A fool doesn't have to say out loud but clearly what he believes and says in his own heart is shown in his works.
In truth the OT never had chapters and verses in the times of Christ.
They were added later for ease of reading.
These things were learned by heart as the disciples show when you see them in John 2 listening to Christ.
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
They knew their scriptures and they remembered as Christ spoke and his actions what was written.
The disciples never mocked Christ or took things out of context. They knew what their hearts believed.
They believed in God and when the time for Christ came they knew in their hearts what he was doing had been foretold.
It was only later when he died and rose the real understanding of the meaning of those words came to them.
Spirit and Truth as Christ foretold.
King James Bible
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
How can the dark come to terms with the light?
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Sass has nearly reached the centre of the Earth her hole is so deep! ;D ;D ;D
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Not sure why the second sentence "blows their case right out of the water", Khat. After all, it is talking about the people who say that there is no God. Ironically, I have heard more people use this quote to support their decision to disbelieve in God, than anyone else.
OK - let's consider the scripture:
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good".
Psalm 14:1
I've never known a believer use the entire verse. They always omit the second sentence.
Why?
Perhaps they'd always seen the first sentence quoted and genuinely had no idea the second sentence even existed.
However, I guess Christians are aware of the second sentence and maybe they like to put the billions of people who don't believe into one category as corrupt, abominable and doing no good.
Yet, do Christians honestly believe that someone like Gandhi, did no good at all? What do you find corrupt and vile about his works?
Bob Geldof is a well-known atheist. How many millions of lives has he saved through his work and effort?
If Christians really believe that great humanitarians like Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates are corrupt and vile and have done no good then all I can say is that they've been twisted and distorted by theirr own beliefs.
I'd say that any believer who agrees with the second sentence is sick and had better be prepared to demonstrate that every unbeliever is corrupt, abominable and incapable of doing anything good.
Any believer who doesn't agree with the second part has a problem; They admit that the Bible is not always right, in which case they are not required to accept any of 14.1
Here's another scripture, this time from Alan's much vaunted New Testament:
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
Revelation 21:8
To summarise:
In the first scripture, we're taught that unbelievers are corrupt, vile abominations that never do good. In the second, the love of Jesus tells us that unbelievers are abominable, all liars, and the moral equivalent of murderers and whoremongers.
And we all know how the believer's violent and judgemental god feels about such people, don't we? It must be good and right to feel that way, too, if Jesus does - right? Seems that in order to please him, Christians want to be just like Jesus and hate who he hates. Right?, right? The vile and abominable need to be hurt, don't they? It's a biblical principle.
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RUBBISH... you haven't the ability to understand the scriptures or the New Testament in a believers knowledge of truth.
Hmmm...do you think the above is on my list?
I don't understand because I need to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
I don't understand because I need to view it from a child's perspective
I don't understand because, unlike you, I'm not a "true Christian"
I don't understand because I'm not a biblical scholar
I don't understand because I took the scripture out of context.
I don't understand because it means something other than what it actually says
I don't understand because it's an allegory
I don't understand because my mind is far too feeble to comprehend your god's truth
I don't understand because I've not been filled with the holy spirit
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Sass doesn't understand, end of story!
It is daft to brand all unbelievers as being bad, anymore than it is to assert all believers are good. the Bible says some very foolish things, as well as some that are wise. But as it is a human creation, as I believe it to be, that isn't surprising.
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Quote Sassy on October 17, 2016, 10:55:36 AM
RUBBISH... you haven't the ability to understand the scriptures or the New Testament in a believers knowledge of truth.
Hmmm...do you think the above is on my list?
I don't understand because I need to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
I don't understand because I need to view it from a child's perspective
I don't understand because, unlike you, I'm not a "true Christian"
I don't understand because I'm not a biblical scholar
I don't understand because I took the scripture out of context.
I don't understand because it means something other than what it actually says
I don't understand because it's an allegory
I don't understand because my mind is far too feeble to comprehend your god's truth
I don't understand because I've not been filled with the holy spirit
The plain truth is that you have no understanding of the things I said or what the list is appertaining to because you do not know the bible. Epic fail on two counts for you. Should you really use excuses from a list done by people whom like yourself do not know the bible?
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Sass, people don't have an understanding of what you say, because most of it makes no sense whatsoever. ::)
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The plain truth is that you have no understanding of the things I said or what the list is appertaining to because you do not know the bible. Epic fail on two counts for you. Should you really use excuses from a list done by people whom like yourself do not know the bible?
I don't understand becUse I don't know the Bible?
That's pretty close to the fourth example that's on my list:
"I don't understand because I'm not a biblical scholar"
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I don't understand becUse I don't know the Bible?
That's pretty close to the fourth example that's on my list:
"I don't understand because I'm not a biblical scholar"
Not at all...you obviously have nothing to show you have read the bible.
There is nothing on that list which represents that choice.
It is also the most likely and most truthful point to represent your lack of knowledge.
Hearsay, about verse you may have heard repeated on internet etc is not the same as reading them for yourself and so understanding the full context Christ spoke them in. Or which the Prophets spoke their words.
I do believe that is the most explanatory reason.
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Hearsay, about verse you may have heard repeated on internet etc is not the same as reading them for yourself and so understanding the full context Christ spoke them in. Or which the Prophets spoke their words.
I do believe that is the most explanatory reason.
Are there any special words I need to be aware of to help me understand the message?
By "special", I mean words with definitions not found in the Oxford English Dictionary.
For example: Words like "soon"
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Not at all...you obviously have nothing to show you have read the bible.
There is nothing on that list which represents that choice.
It is also the most likely and most truthful point to represent your lack of knowledge.
Hearsay, about verse you may have heard repeated on internet etc is not the same as reading them for yourself and so understanding the full context Christ spoke them in. Or which the Prophets spoke their words.
I do believe that is the most explanatory reason.
You read the Bible, quote endlessly from it, with your own interpretation of the texts, which don't often correlate with the thinking of others who have read it too! ::)
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This is what Jesus said about the Sabbath:
Matthew 12
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
(New International Version)
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It shows that the Sabbath was made for man and there is no reason not to do work on that day if it is compassionate or necessary. It doesn't mean not getting out of bed. That is what Sassy said quite clearly.
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The posts of Sass are never clear! ::)
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I'm not saying they are always clear - not one of us is always clear! However what she said about the Sabbath was very clear.
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Are there any special words I need to be aware of to help me understand the message?
By "special", I mean words with definitions not found in the Oxford English Dictionary.
For example: Words like "soon"
All the above post does is show two things... Your ostrich reasoning that you really can hide behind something which does not prevent the truth showing it. "Soon" in the case of Christ not knowing the day or hour of his return can mean many things.
But what it never meant was days, weeks, months or even centuries etc. We know this because teachings like the Man/Son of perdition had to come first and all fulfilled in the bible prophecy. But number two is what I do not understand :- why you think all that goes away and what is written elsewhere in the bible because you think "soon" has an applicable definition given the light of all the bible has to teach. You harping on with the word... "soon" displays your ignorance not a valid point against Christ coming soon in the light of all that must pass.
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Sass, you are displaying your ignorance by pretending the word 'soon' means any length of time, even thousands of years!
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Soon the earth could cease to exist.
Soon the sun could burn out.
Soon we might have to leave this planet and find a new one to continue to exist.
Soon we could have rain.
Soon the climate changes might mean everything too hot to survive.
Soon does not have a time attached to it. It means not just days, weeks, months, years, decades etc.
" I am coming soon." A persons life expectancy then was different to now. 2,000 years ago someone could have said, "Soon we will eat better and live longer" But they cannot give a time or even a year. So anyone who says "soon" can be relating to any amount of time. Christ knew he had not been given the day or the hour. So he said "Soon" how many years does a person live?
I believe because there is no time in death, the person opens their eyes immediately to the judgement day having been dead centuries in our time. Because consciousness in every persons lifetime only last so many years.
And those who live and believe in Christ shall never die.
As the bible clearly tells us there is no difference between a thousand years and a day to God.
Then God speaking through Christ can use the term 'soon' to mean thousands of years.
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Sassy
well I'm glad we got that sorted out, I was loosing sleep over it.
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Sass, you are displaying your ignorance by pretending the word 'soon' means any length of time, even thousands of years!
I suppose it depends on the context into which one is speaking. For instance, a friend I was talking with yesterday said that he thought that we'd soon have driverless cars as a norm. He then went on to expand on that by saying he thought it would be in the lifetime of our children (he is 2 years older than I am). Is 40 or 50 years 'soon' in your view?
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I suppose it depends on the context into which one is speaking. For instance, a friend I was talking with yesterday said that he thought that we'd soon have driverless cars as a norm. He then went on to expand on that by saying he thought it would be in the lifetime of our children (he is 2 years older than I am). Is 40 or 50 years 'soon' in your view?
Then he used it incorrectly. Didn't he?
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I suppose it depends on the context into which one is speaking. For instance, a friend I was talking with yesterday said that he thought that we'd soon have driverless cars as a norm. He then went on to expand on that by saying he thought it would be in the lifetime of our children (he is 2 years older than I am). Is 40 or 50 years 'soon' in your view?
No
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All the above post does is show two things... Your ostrich reasoning that you really can hide behind something which does not prevent the truth showing it. "Soon" in the case of Christ not knowing the day or hour of his return can mean many things.
But what it never meant was days, weeks, months or even centuries etc. We know this because teachings like the Man/Son of perdition had to come first and all fulfilled in the bible prophecy. But number two is what I do not understand :- why you think all that goes away and what is written elsewhere in the bible because you think "soon" has an applicable definition given the light of all the bible has to teach. You harping on with the word... "soon" displays your ignorance not a valid point against Christ coming soon in the light of all that must pass.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that "soon" means "any length of time"?
Let's say someone says to you that they "will come and visit you soon" but it takes them thirty years to get around to it.
According to your rationale, the passage of thirty years fits the definition of "soon"
Right you are, Sass - please carry on.
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Soon the earth could cease to exist.
Soon the sun could burn out.
Soon we might have to leave this planet and find a new one to continue to exist.
Soon we could have rain.
Soon the climate changes might mean everything too hot to survive.
Soon does not have a time attached to it. It means not just days, weeks, months, years, decades etc.
" I am coming soon." A persons life expectancy then was different to now. 2,000 years ago someone could have said, "Soon we will eat better and live longer" But they cannot give a time or even a year. So anyone who says "soon" can be relating to any amount of time. Christ knew he had not been given the day or the hour. So he said "Soon" how many years does a person live?
I believe because there is no time in death, the person opens their eyes immediately to the judgement day having been dead centuries in our time. Because consciousness in every persons lifetime only last so many years.
And those who live and believe in Christ shall never die.
As the bible clearly tells us there is no difference between a thousand years and a day to God.
Then God speaking through Christ can use the term 'soon' to mean thousands of years.
"sooner or later"
Why is that phrase in common useage?
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Mark 13:32-37
Mark 24:36-44
Luke 21;34-36
I take it you've read the above scriptures, Sass.
If you have then you will know that the focus is all on the imminent coming of the Son of Man. The reader is told to always remain alert because the Son of Man could show up at any minute.
Have a read of Luke 21:34 in particular.
"Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
"Be on guard" and "about to happen"
Any sane person would read that the day is imminent.
No doubt you will have read the "Parable of the Ten Virgins" but do you truly understand its message? I suspect you don't.
The whole point of that fable is that the master's return is imminent, in other words, any minute now and there isn't even enough time left for the girls to hightail it to market and buy more oil.
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
Matthew 25:13
This has nothing to do with ignorance of when Jesus is coming back and everything to do with its immediacy.
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Are you honestly trying to tell me that "soon" means "any length of time"?
Let's say someone says to you that they "will come and visit you soon" but it takes them thirty years to get around to it.
According to your rationale, the passage of thirty years fits the definition of "soon"
Right you are, Sass - please carry on.
It truly is accountable to the person using the word. If someone says he will visit me soon and it happens 30 years later, then his history of using the word and the terminology would be revealed in what soon means to him. So he says: "I hope to build a green house 'soon'."10 years later he builds his green house... then it is likely 'soo'n means -'when I can get around to it'. So 'soon' means when they can... Otherwise they would arrange a time and date wouldn't they. There is the point 'soon' can mean any length of time. It means when I can get around to it. Christ had told us he did not have an hour or a day.
In Gods time a day is like a thousand years so 'soon' for God can be whenever however you have 140 years if you live that long. Set against a thousand you could wait a long time. :D
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Mark 13:32-37
Mark 24:36-44
Luke 21;34-36
I take it you've read the above scriptures, Sass.
If you have then you will know that the focus is all on the imminent coming of the Son of Man. The reader is told to always remain alert because the Son of Man could show up at any minute.
Nothing imminent Christ told you he did not know the day or the hour.
Have a read of Luke 21:34 in particular.
"Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
Would that be the Christians and the fall of Jerusalem 70 years later?
"Be on guard" and "about to happen"
Any sane person would read that the day is imminent.
The fall of Jerusalm 70 AD about did come to pass.
No doubt you will have read the "Parable of the Ten Virgins" but do you truly understand its message? I suspect you don't.
Yes it is about living according to the Spirit being infilled continually renewing and being ready cutting the old life away (trimming their wicks) and so being renewed continually by the presence OF the Holy Spirit. Others teaching you who are in Spirit cannot save you.
You must have your own supply.
I guess sometimes people do not read the bible with any understanding.
The whole point of that fable is that the master's return is imminent, in other words, any minute now and there isn't even enough time left for the girls to hightail it to market and buy more oil.
No! it is about being ready at all times by living in the Spirit and obeying the Spirit never slacking and never lacking.
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
Matthew 25:13
This has nothing to do with ignorance of when Jesus is coming back and everything to do with its immediacy.
Not at all as THE answers show you haven't a clue. Like so many you take things out of context. The wise virgins trimmed their lamps and lived as Christ had shown them.
They were living in the Spirit constantly and having their life.light renewed continually.
Never be lazy in following the truth about Christ. It is a constant change which requires constantly walking and living according to Gods Holy Spirits leading and teaching.
Christ spoke about many things... but what people do not understand that he fulfilled the teachings of the law and the prophets prophecies about himself.
The Kingdom is established and NOTHING can move it or be rid of it.
The person made alive in Christ lives for eternity there is no death. He who believes in me and liveth shall never die. The body dies but the soul of those in Christ never dies they sleep.
You need help with the bible let me know.
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Sassy's help with the Bible would be on that of the level of a child just out of the uterus, I reckon, if that isn't being too kind a way of describing it! ;D
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It has been common in recent - last thirty years maybe which is very recent to me - for people to say, "See you later" on parting company, whether they mean tomorrow, ten years or almost never. I hate it >:(, however a comparison could be made between that and use of the word, "Soon".
However, as Sass has said, when the scriptures were translated there may not have been a word that quite fitted the bill.
I've always taken "soon" in the context of what we have been discussing to mean that we need to be prepared at all times because we never know the minute or the hour.
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I've always taken "soon" in the context of what we have been discussing to mean that we need to be prepared at all times because we never know the minute or the hour.
sounds like the bus service on Sundays in the Yorkshire dales :D
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It truly is accountable to the person using the word. If someone says he will visit me soon and it happens 30 years later, then his history of using the word and the terminology would be revealed in what soon means to him. So he says: "I hope to build a green house 'soon'."10 years later he builds his green house... then it is likely 'soo'n means -'when I can get around to it'. So 'soon' means when they can... Otherwise they would arrange a time and date wouldn't they. There is the point 'soon' can mean any length of time. It means when I can get around to it. Christ had told us he did not have an hour or a day.
In Gods time a day is like a thousand years so 'soon' for God can be whenever however you have 140 years if you live that long. Set against a thousand you could wait a long time. :D
"Soon" means soon.
"When I get around to it" does not mean soon.
You're saying that instead of the Bible telling us that Jesus is returning soon, it may just as well say that Jesus will return whenever God gets around to it? lol
Notwithstanding the ex-dictionary special Christian definition of "soon". When I read that something is going to happen soon, I expect it to happen within my lifespan.
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Nothing imminent Christ told you he did not know the day or the hour.
Of course it's imminent. The Bible tells us the axe is already lying at the foot of the tree.
Jesus may not have known the time nor the hour but he did say "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." and that in itself demonstrates that Jesus was not as ignorant as you claim him to be.
Would that be the Christians and the fall of Jerusalem 70 years later?
Luke mentions that but it's in addition to the imminent return of the Son of Man.
No! it is about being ready at all times by living in the Spirit and obeying the Spirit never slacking and never lacking.
Not at all as THE answers show you haven't a clue. Like so many you take things out of context. The wise virgins trimmed their lamps and lived as Christ had shown them.
They were living in the Spirit constantly and having their life.light renewed continually.
Never be lazy in following the truth about Christ. It is a constant change which requires constantly walking and living according to Gods Holy Spirits leading and teaching.
Christ spoke about many things... but what people do not understand that he fulfilled the teachings of the law and the prophets prophecies about himself.
The Kingdom is established and NOTHING can move it or be rid of it.
The person made alive in Christ lives for eternity there is no death. He who believes in me and liveth shall never die. The body dies but the soul of those in Christ never dies they sleep.
You need help with the bible let me know.
The whole point of the parable is the imminent return and not that the master could return anytime between now and when our sun goes nova. Yet that's just what you say it is - an ending at some indefinite future date.