Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Muslim Topic => Topic started by: Bubbles on October 30, 2016, 09:05:13 AM
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/09/shunned-for-saying-theyre-muslims-life-for-ahmadis-after-asad-shahs
Just thought I'd post about Ahmadis because according to this article persecution of them is increasing in the uk.
The issue with the other groups of Muslims is that the Ahmadis don't believe Mohammed was the last Prophet.
All beliefs aside, they seem like nice decent people who want to integrate with non Muslims and I feel that we should be aware and support any Ahmadi Muslim we come across in RL and be aware of this prejudice against them.
People sometimes get "hung up" on what others believe and fail to see the person themselves.
I think it matters how people treat others who don't believe the same things and gives an insight into their own souls.
🌹
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A lovely sentiment & one we should be aware of.. unfortunately ....
The Quran is very clear on how 'other' groups & those who don't believe absolutely, should be treated.
IS are following Islam to the letter in what they're doing nowadays. It's exactly what their so-called 'prophet' did those centuries ago. One need only read the Quran to see this, sorry.
Nick
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Does that apply to the Ahmadiyya? I don't know, just asking.
Rose said: I think it matters how people treat others who don't believe the same things and gives an insight into their own souls.
I agree with that 100% and if we don't always receive the same back, there is still no reason to believe otherwise.
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B
AGREED 100% too !!!
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Blimey, wonders will never cease. I am de-light-ed.
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B
Of course !!! Especially if one becomes a convert. It says more about the character & mentality about the person themselves.
Nick
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B
Of course !!! Especially if one becomes a convert. It says more about the character & mentality about the person themselves.
Nick
isn't that true of everyone? Your position on Islam tells me more about you, than it?
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Of course but I'm NOT 'con'verting to any religion for the foreseeable future ?!!?!?
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Of course but I'm NOT 'con'verting to any religion for the foreseeable future ?!!?!?
so? Why are you in any different position to anyone else!
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I'm no different - I just can't use my religion as any excuse for anything !!
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/09/shunned-for-saying-theyre-muslims-life-for-ahmadis-after-asad-shahs
Just thought I'd post about Ahmadis because according to this article persecution of them is increasing in the uk.
The issue with the other groups of Muslims is that the Ahmadis don't believe Mohammed was the last Prophet.
All beliefs aside, they seem like nice decent people who want to integrate with non Muslims and I feel that we should be aware and support any Ahmadi Muslim we come across in RL and be aware of this prejudice against them.
People sometimes get "hung up" on what others believe and fail to see the person themselves.
I think it matters how people treat others who don't believe the same things and gives an insight into their own souls.
🌹
Agree with your sentiments. An Ahmadi Muslim was at my Muslim religious wedding. There were only 5 guests, as we needed some witnesses, plus the person who married us. Not even my husband's parents nor my own parents were present for the religious ceremony, though my husband's brother and wife were there. My husband's father had died, my parents were out of the country working as ex-pats and at 23 I wasn't sentimental enough about weddings to wait for them to come back, and I figured if they couldn't be there they would be hurt if they heard my husband's mother had attended.
I am still friends with my Ahmadi guest, though we don't keep in touch much, other than wishing each other Happy Birthday. She and her mother came on holiday with us to Morocco with about 25 non-Ahmadi Muslims about 2 or 3 years ago - actually she helped my husband organise the trip. She is also a client.
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I'm no different - I just can't use my religion as any excuse for anything !!
Well, speaking as a convert I'm glad I can use my religion as an excuse for not drinking alcohol - it's been very useful. In fact when I first used my religion as an excuse to stop drinking alcohol I saved enough money to buy a brand new car with cash. That's just one of the reasons converting was one of the best decisions I ever made, closely followed by my decision to get married to a practising Muslim.
There are many other reasons converting has been great for me - such as a softened attitude, a more open mind than I had previously, continuously learning about different views in Islam, which I wouldn't have bothered doing if I hadn't converted, learning to fast during Ramadan, learning to run 5k while fasting in the summer during Ramadan :) , having a family life, becoming closer to my parents who did not have high expectations of me tying myself down by getting married at any point, joining this forum - but no point boring you with the details. I am on the prayer mat a lot feeling thankful for how great my life turned out as a result of my decision to convert.
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Well, speaking as a convert I'm glad I can use my religion as an excuse for not drinking alcohol - it's been very useful. In fact when I first used my religion as an excuse to stop drinking alcohol I saved enough money to buy a brand new car with cash. That's just one of the reasons converting was one of the best decisions I ever made, closely followed by my decision to get married to a practising Muslim.
There are many other reasons converting has been great for me - such as a softened attitude, a more open mind than I had previously, continuously learning about different views in Islam, which I wouldn't have bothered doing if I hadn't converted, learning to fast during Ramadan, learning to run 5k while fasting in the summer during Ramadan :) , having a family life, becoming closer to my parents who did not have high expectations of me tying myself down by getting married at any point, joining this forum - but no point boring you with the details. I am on the prayer mat a lot feeling thankful for how great my life turned out as a result of my decision to convert.
post hoc ergo propter hoc
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G
Well Done but it was never necessary to become a Muslim to do any of this, na?
Switching over anything, I feel is usually for selfish reasons & that's perfectly fine. We often try to be 'better'.
N
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G
Well Done but it was never necessary to become a Muslim to do any of this, na?
Switching over anything, I feel is usually for selfish reasons & that's perfectly fine. We often try to be 'better'.
N
Yes it was necessary for me to convert to do the things I listed - I used my religion as an excuse to do all these things I mentioned. I distinctly remember that the only reason I stopped drinking was because I became a Muslim; the only reason I started fasting - the Muslim thing; the only reason I got married - again the Muslim thing - my attitude otherwise was just because you are in love with someone no reason to marry them; and so on and so forth regarding a lot of other decisions I made - used my religion as an excuse.
Based on your take on 'selfish' it's a good thing to be selfish in the right circumstances.. No doubt many parents are very happy about their kids' various selfish decisions to improve themselves.
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post hoc ergo propter hoc
Not sure what your point is. It's no different to a person being thankful about choosing certain A'Levels because it helped them get into a particular line of work.
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Not sure what your point is. It's no different to a person being thankful about choosing certain A'Levels because it helped them get into a particular line of work.
So choosing them didn't get you into that line, ergo you choose Islam for the out come you hoped for. The outcome in both cases being the thing you wanted. If it had been Scientology that got you to the outcome that would have been OK?
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Still not sure I get your point.
I chose my A'Levels because I didn't know what I wanted to do as a job, but I knew there were certain careers I didn't want e.g. medicine - based on amongst other things having seen the work involved in being a doctor as my mother is a doctor.
I chose A'Levels I would enjoy rather than A'Levels that people close to me suggested, and those A'Levels led to a job I enjoyed and was good at partly based on my degree and partly based on the knowledge and skills I got from the A'Levels I did. For example if I had not done Maths I would have found it difficult to get the role that I did get in investment banking, as Maths A'Level made me quicker at understanding certain concepts, calculations, graphs and spreadsheets. I'm thankful I chose the A'Levels I did.
Similar scenario with Islam - I didn't know what outcome I wanted but I knew certain outcomes I did not want and then I found being a Muslim resulted in me adopting certain behaviours that I am now thankful I adopted.
Not sure if that answers your question.
Regarding Scientology - I don't really care what a religion calls itself - I am more interested in what my understanding of the philosophy of the religion is, based on its texts, what various adherents say it could be about, and what I perceive to be core beliefs versus cultural practices etc. My interest would be based on whether my interpretation of that philosophy appeals to me and influences my behaviour in what I view as a positive way.
What I know of Scientology, which isn't much and only based on media reports and documentaries, it doesn't appeal to me. But I haven't investigated it for myself - haven't had my interest sparked enough to try.
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Based on your take on 'selfish' it's a good thing to be selfish in the right circumstances.. No doubt many parents are very happy about their kids' various selfish decisions to improve themselves.
YES I WAS going to add that bit about 'selfish' being a GOOD thing too as it most certainly was in your case.
What bothers me is when others. personally OR it being part of their religion, is that they insist I should do it to.
I'm sorry but Islam falls into that category - you know very well what Islam & The Quran say about 'non-believers' !!!
Nick
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I don't understand your problem - whatever the Quran says about what happens to non-believers after they die is irrelevant to people who don't believe in a god or who don't believe that the Quran is the word of said god. ISIS might believe that their interpretation of Islam requires them to kill or subjugate people, Muslim or otherwise, who do not believe as they believe, but given the majority of Muslims e.g. in the UK, condemn ISIS and are not operating along the same lines as ISIS, that leaves you free to believe or reject whatever you want.
I certainly don't spend my time worrying about what Scientology says is going to happen to me, as a non-Scientologist.
Also, what's the difference between Quranic warnings about a supposed Day of Judgement to believers and non-believers, and living as part of any society and being forced to conform to certain cultural norms through legislation or through peer pressure? You are being told that you have to believe in certain morals or at least that your behaviour has to conform to morals that you don't necessarily believe in - our newest poster, Walt, keeps saying he can't post what he really thinks on an anonymous internet forum because he will be put in prison - bizarre but that's what he believes.
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I don't understand your problem - whatever the Quran says about what happens to non-believers after they die is irrelevant to people who don't believe in a god or who don't believe that the Quran is the word of said god. ISIS might believe that their interpretation of Islam requires them to kill or subjugate people, Muslim or otherwise, who do not believe as they believe, but given the majority of Muslims e.g. in the UK, condemn ISIS and are not operating along the same lines as ISIS, that leaves you free to believe or reject whatever you want.
I certainly don't spend my time worrying about what Scientology says is going to happen to me, as a non-Scientologist.
Also, what's the difference between Quranic warnings about a supposed Day of Judgement to believers and non-believers, and living as part of any society and being forced to conform to certain cultural norms through legislation or through peer pressure? You are being told that you have to believe in certain morals or at least that your behaviour has to conform to morals that you don't necessarily believe in - our newest poster, Walt, keeps saying he can't post what he really thinks on an anonymous internet forum because he will be put in prison - bizarre but that's what he believes.
I was making the point that some religions seem to be above criticism and free speech only exists under certain circumstances in this country.
ALSO, think again if you think this board is anonymous. you can be traced!
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I was making the point that some religions seem to be above criticism and free speech only exists under certain circumstances in this country.
ALSO, think again if you think this board is anonymous. you can be traced!
what religions are above criticism?
As to free speech, it's never existed as an absolute in this country, and I doubt it ever will.
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Anyone who does not believe we have imported Pakistani sub culture religious hatred into this country should read the article in the OP in full
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what religions are above criticism?
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I said 'seem' to be
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I said 'seem' to be
So which seem to be?
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Anyone who does not believe we have imported Pakistani sub culture religious hatred into this country should read the article in the OP in full
I've skimmed through it, I despise the lot of em
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Anyone who does not believe we have imported Pakistani sub culture religious hatred into this country should read the article in the OP in full
Yes - do you think it's about as irritating as all the British weapons imported into foreign countries that help fuel sectarian violence? What kind of morals must a nation have to export weapons that can kill hundreds and thousands?
I think our defence industries and therefore the British economy have a vested interest in the continuation of sectarian violence abroad. If some of that violence trickles back to here, maybe, like immigration, we could look at it as just part of the cost of generating profits to help the British economy, or as Walter likes to say, "a cross we have to bear".
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Well said!!!!!!
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British arms exports are certainly a worthy subject for discussionand you may be surprised how much we will agree on the subject
Perhaps the mods can move it to the appropriate part of the forum.
In the meantime, in Pakistan, Ahmadiyya can face summary execution while the police stand around and let it happen, and those doing the murdering can easily walk free and may even get a pat on the back or be looked up to for commiting murder.
What about the article. The author writes....
Speaking from his office in Islamabad, Ali Dayan Hasan, the former Pakistan director of Human Rights Watch, is succinct about general attitudes to Ahmadis: “It is shocking how much hate there is in the UK.” He refers in particular to literature distributed by Khatme Nubuwatt, an organisation that in Pakistan calls for the ‘elimination’ of the Ahmadi, but also has branches in the UK
and that...
Since 1974, the Ahmadi population in Pakistan has fallen from several million to 400,000. “Even five years ago I remember saying [to authorities in Britain], ‘You have to do something about this.
So I will repeat, anyone who does not believe we have imported Pakistani sub culture religious hatred into this country should read the article in the OP in full.
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It seems to me that khatm e nubuwwat are walking a fine line.
The leaflets that were distributed had their name and address on them, but they deny any responsibility.
IMO no group should be allowed to call for the death of someone or of a minority group and be allowed to operate within the uk.
It's disconcerting that they can describe the shop keeper as a kind man and that it was a lone plot by a nutter to kill him while belonging to an organisation that really does appear to be calling for the death of Ahdmanis.
ATM there are no plans to ban them, but I find their name appearing on the leaflets disturbing and I think it needs further investigation to find those responsible for them.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/kill-ahmadis-hate-group-khatme-nubuwwat-must-be-banned-campaigners-1554175
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http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hate-leaflets-calling-killing-ahmadi-muslims-distributed-across-london-1553591
The powers that be, seem intent on ignoring it.
If I distributed hate literature like that across London aimed at Muslims or Jehovah's Witnesses I'd be carted off so fast my feet wouldn't touch the ground.
People are entitled to think someone's interpretation of a religion is wrong and say so, in no uncertain terms, but calling for Capitol punishments is a step to far, IMO.
I'd say that an organisation has some responsibility to correct those who use its name to generate hatred, so I think this organisation has responsibitly to make sure people don't abuse it's name.
It also looks like the original leaflet was obtained by one of its links.
If it was up to me, they would have to ensure no such leaflets talking about capital punishment found there way onto British streets, or they would be out.
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You know Rose - you really are a lovely person, X
I'm afraid there's verses allowing this kind of mindless murdering in the Quran.
A slight 'look to the side' of these parts & ALL sorts of things are 'available'.
Of course, one may say this about most 'dodgy' religions too
Other religions are available !?!?!?
Nick
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It's really horrible and, like Rose, I would not allow such leaflets to be distributed here if I had any authority.
You said/asked: Of course, one may say this about most 'dodgy' religions too
Other religions are available !?!?!?
No comment from me :D! Just dive into some of the threads on the Christian and R&E topics for the answer.
I agree with you, Trippy, that Rose is lovely. She exudes common sense and calm. What is more her posts are always so clear.
I am going to take a leaf out of Rose's book and space my posts out more, it makes such a difference to the reader.
Regards,
Spaced out Lyn.