Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Faith Sharing Area => Topic started by: Owlswing on November 03, 2016, 03:31:22 PM
-
In an attempt to clarify the Pagan beliefs that I hold and how they relate to witchcraft practice AS I KNOW it, could I ask any poster who might be interested in facts rather than fiction and/or superstition to detail their knowledge on these matters.
Please - I stess the word KNOWLEDGE! NOT what you have heard third or fourth hand; NOT what you have read in the papers; NOT what you have guessed; NOT what you have been told by someone who CLAIMS to be either Pagan or witch!
What you actually know!
My responses, if any are required will only be from my personal experience and experiences as I cannot and will not attempt to answer for anyone else within other either Pagan or Witchcraft communities/covens.
Alternatively, of course, if you are able to state that you know two-thirds of three-fifths of naff-all about either post what ypou would like to know and I'll do my best to answer you.
Bright Blessings, Love and Light and may the old ones watchover you and yours always.
)O(
-
Many thanks, Owlswing, for this offer! As a neophyte in such things, could I ask is there something that you see as specifically cultural about your beliefs?
-
Many thanks, Owlswing, for this offer! As a neophyte in such things, could I ask is there something that you see as specifically
cultural about your beliefs?
One of my problems here (the forum) is understanding the meanings of some terms used (usually those that end in -ism or -ology so beloved of Vlad), I will answer within my understanding of the word "cultural" - as in where do they fit within the culture if the UK. I hope this will be ok. You can always tell me if it isn't.
AS must be obvious to even the most jaundiced eye Paganism is deeply embedded in the history of (what is now) the UK.
The standing stones all over the place, England, Ireland (North and South), Wales, and Scotland, testify to a Pagan history.
However even this statement is open to argument. Why? Simple, the Pagans of British history did not write a Bible to record their faith/beliefs * for later generations to fight over.
Do my beliefs hold that the Rollright Stones (Oxfordshire), Castle Rigg (Cumbria) and, of course, Avebury and Stonehenge show that paganism was part of the history and culture of ancient Britain?
100% yes! NO shadow of a doubt.
The Welsh, Irish, and Scots have their own circles ad they also had their own deities that they honoured, quite possibly, at the sites marked by the stones.
This leads to the major basis for the rejection by other established, Abrahamic religions of the relevance and/or validity of modern Paganism as modern Pagans cannot show written proof of the rituals used, the words said, the praise given, the deities, male and/or female, to whom such praise was given.
This lack of written history has given rise to two, at times widely divergent, motorways of paganism from which the many and varied personal paths of Pagan faith have formed.
The first, and that which its followers deem to be the "real" one, is the Reconstructionist way. Using only those parts of Pagan history that are documented until something is found to add to or amend what already exists. Even this path has its detractors from the outside who claim that all claims to authenticity are suspect due to the length of time since they were written/carved, the difficulty of knowing exactly what the carved/written words actually mean (where have I heard that complaint before).
The other is to read everything available that can be trusted and make a judgement based upon that reading. There are many books out there on Paganism, one of the best authorities on the subject is Professor Ronald Hutton of Bristol University, but there are others and using "what feels right to you", the individual! Hence the description by many of Modern Paganism as a pick and mix religion.
That it may be BUT BUT BUT mot pagans on these many and varied path feel that this is better than having to sallow and entire religion whole, in one lump so you do not get to taste the ingredients.
Can I claim that my beliefs are accurate to the history of Paganism as it was practiced in historic UK?
NO, I cannot and I do not try - my path is one that I have found for myself, by walking it, night after night, day after day, Esbat by Esbat, Sabbat by Sabbat, Solstice and Equinox by etc., picking up morsels here and there. I listen to other pagans as they describe their paths, rituals, insights. Sometimes I find something that I didn't have and incorporate it, sometimes I find a different way to do something and adjust or discard whet I have been doing.
The Pagan culture of this land was scattered and disconnected because the people, were scattered and disconnected - they did not have some priest from hundreds of miles way telling them how to deal with their deities, they tried it as they went along and if it worked (i e gave tem good harvest) they did it the same way next time - if it didn’t, they tried another way hoping that that might work.
Pagan deities were/are capricious and can be malevolent BUT they have never pretended to be anything else.
* Going forward I will use beliefs rather than try to differentiate which of the terms more accurately fits any context.
-
Thanks for this Owlswing.
I know nothing of Paganism except what you have said and would like to know more.
-
Thanks for this Owlswing.
I know nothing of Paganism except what you have said and would like to know more.
I would like to help. However. I have been studying, on and off, for 10 years, eleven if you count the year as a Dedicant prior to my actual initiation.
I know about the history of the Craft, far more than I know about Paganism itself. The Craft is a big enough subject, Paganism is far, far bigger as it takes in Egyptian, Norse, Roman, Greek, Celtic (Irish and Scots and Welsh), Assyrian etc etc etc!
I would ask then that you pose relatively specific questions and I will attempt to answer them.
One point, some things are taught only after a witch has joined a Coven and taken the Oath that applies to that Coven. One of the things covered by that Oath, items called Oathbound, are the identities of fellow members of a Coven. This is because it is still not wise in some professions to admit to being a Pagan, much less a witch. Two witches known to me personally have had this problem, a Professor of Molecular Biology and a Barrister.
So if I answer that something is Oathbound it is because of something like this.
-
Have to say I know less than I probably should about Paganism for someone with an interest in theism.
One thing that I would like to know more about is the crossover between Paganism and other religions, Christianity mainly in UK terms, such as the main festivals during the calendar year. We've just passed one and another is on the way and while I know a little about Saturnalia pre-dating Christmas etc I don't know much more than that.
So, I'd be interested in a kind of summary of the key stages in the Pagan year.
-
Have to say I know less than I probably should about Paganism for someone with an interest in theism.
One thing that I would like to know more about is the crossover between Paganism and other religions, Christianity mainly in UK terms, such as the main festivals during the calendar year. We've just passed one and another is on the way and while I know a little about Saturnalia pre-dating Christmas etc I don't know much more than that.
So, I'd be interested in a kind of summary of the key stages in the Pagan year.
I'll get the book out tomorrow morning - I'm just doing a quick run through the Forum/Facebook/Yahoo before heading for the sack.
Sleep well
-
What I do know about paganism is that it isn't a thing. Or rather, it isn't one thing. "Pagan" in the context of first century Europe is really a catchall term for "non Abrahamic religions". There's really no reason at all to suppose that the religions of the people that built each phase of Stonehenge had anything to do with Celtic religions or the Druids or pagan Roman and Greek religions or the pre Christian Saxon and Norse religions.
-
What I do know about paganism is that it isn't a thing. Or rather, it isn't one thing. "Pagan" in the context of first century Europe is really a catchall term for "non Abrahamic religions". There's really no reason at all to suppose that the religions of the people that built each phase of Stonehenge had anything to do with Celtic religions or the Druids or pagan Roman and Greek religions or the pre Christian Saxon and Norse religions.
In the context of first century Europe there were only two non-Abrahamic religions, Islam did not exist at that time, and the term would probably only have been used by Christians, not by Jews.
Considering the date of Stonehenge there is no way of knowing what or who the builders believed in. I know of nowhere that I have claimed differently. I cannot even think of any archaeologist or historian who has made claims as to knowledge of, or who has even speculated upon which, if any, religion or deities were worshipped there except, possibly the Sun and/or Moon.
Perhaps you could expand upon your first two sentences in order that I can make some sort of reasoned comment upon them.
-
Have to say I know less than I probably should about Paganism for someone with an interest in theism.
One thing that I would like to know more about is the crossover between Paganism and other religions, Christianity mainly in UK terms, such as the main festivals during the calendar year. We've just passed one and another is on the way and while I know a little about Saturnalia pre-dating Christmas etc I don't know much more than that.
So, I'd be interested in a kind of summary of the key stages in the Pagan year.
Yes, I know it is 0315! Insomnia - dammit!
I can only expand upon the annual festivals, as I know then, for the specifics of the Saturnalia I would need to consult a Pagan who follows the Roman pantheon and I cannot think of one.
The logical place to start is New Year, probably. November 1, Samhain (I pronounce this "sah wain", but as with most things relating to modern Pagans there are many different pronunciations. In America they have at least eight or nine that I have heard of.) is seen not so much as the New Year, but as the end of the old year. A time to remember those who have passed to the Summerlands during the previous twelve months especially, but also all family members and friends. It is believed to be the time when the veil between the worlds of the living and the dead is at its thinnest and it is a time when many Pagans sit in silent meditation to be in a receptive frame of mind should someone who has passed wish to contact them.
NO - we do not call upon the dead to speak to us. It is not for the living to disturb the peace of the dead, but it is acceptable to listen should they speak. Most who do this have a piece of knowledge of those who may speak in order to verify the identity of the speaker in order to prevent giving something nasty a way into this world.
Just an aside - no Pagan will ever use an Ouija - it is too hard to identify who is controlling the board.
One tradition at Samhain is the setting of a place at dinner/supper for a family member who has passed over during the previous year. Johnny Canoe once made some rather unpleasant remarks about Pagans wasting food by setting out a full meal for the dead person which I have since found out is one of the serious differences between British and American Pagans/witches - some American Pagans do actually set the full meal. (I will expand upon some aspects of the American version of Paganism/witchcraft at the end of this post over and above the matters that are relevant and included.)
Yule - the Winter Solstice - the shortest day/longest night - rituals performed as a kind of thanks for having survived the worst of the weather and getting prepared for Spring.
Imbolc - pronounced im-olg (by some) - marks the celebration of the beginning of spring
Spring Equinox - also called Ostara - halfway between the Winter and Summer Solstices, the time when day and night (light and dark) are of equal length. Ostara or Eostre are, supposedly, that is not accepted by all Pagans, named after an Anglo-Saxon Goddess Eostre thus aligned with oestrogen, hence Easter eggs. The only record of such a deity that I have come across in my researches is from the Venerable Bede.
Beltaine - Mayday - the big Pagan fertility festival, maypoles, dancing, drinking and, in medieval times, supposedly, the Greenwood Wedding. A couple who wanted to wed but for any reason would disappear from the Mayday celebrations into the local woods and a couple of months later there was a good chance a real wedding would be arranged, the Goddess having shown that they were "meant to be together".
Summer Solstice - the longest day - the Druids pilgrimage to Stonehenge for sunrise accompanied by hundreds of hippies and new-agers stoned or drunk or both; the Druids celebrate the Solstice with an "ancient" ritual supposedly passed down from father to son (Druidry is a patriarchy - females are for sacrificing). The hippies/new-agers contribute to the destruction of the stones by pissing and vomiting on them. The English Heritage has stated that urination on the stones at Solstice has caused more damage in the last five years than nature has in five thousand.
Lughnasadh (loo-nass-a) or Lammas - August 1 - the beginning of the harvest season - rituals to ensure good weather in which to bring the harvest in and to give thanks for a good crop.
Autumn Equinox - day and night equal again, the mid-point of the harvest season and preparations are made for winter. Animals not strong enough to survive winter would be slaughtered and stored to feed the people and other animals through the winter. The Americans have decided that this festival is called Mabon after a figure from a Welsh Arthurian legend.
The above, taken all together, is called the Wheel of the Year and is one of the inventions of Gerald Brosseau Gardner, the Father of Wicca.
American Paganism/witchcraft - not without a fair amount of justification American Pagans and witches tend not to make too much of a noise about their religion or membership of the Craft. The reaction of the families in Practical Magic to the witches in their town is actually a pretty accurate picture even today according to the two American witches that I do know.
American witches tend to refer to themselves as Wiccans which can cause misunderstandings on this side of the pond. In the UK a Wiccan (capital W) is a strict follower of the rule and regulations laid down by the abovementioned Gerald Gardner and they jealously guard their right to deny the Capital W to any who do not fulfil what they see as the required standards.
The Americans also have a nasty habit of, in their words, improving things, including the Craft. Brits tend to refer to "improving" as "fucking about with", as in the renaming of some of the points on the Wheel.
OK - enough for now already.
Keep it simple and let me know any questions that you have on the above and, when I have sorted those out as far toward your satisfaction as I can, we can move on to other things if you so wish.
Blessed be!
)O(
-
Great Post, O
Blessed Be !!!!
Nick
-
Great Post, O
Blessed Be !!!!
Nick
Thank you!
-
Owl
First question on the comprehensive detail in your #9.
Am I right in thinking that the likes of Samhain have Celtic origins in northern Europe? I was wondering to what extent the Romans, who were known for assimilating stuff, incorporated any of these into their festivals. For example, was their Saturnalia part of their Mediterranean culture or does in relate to cultures they encountered that had forms of mid-winter festivals?
-
For what its' worth, I know a bit about Celtic spirituality, the Christian side of it at any rate, some of which is drawn from pagan tradition in the pre-Celtic Dalriada. Elsewhere, I've often mired myself in the very complex convoluted Egyptian religion(s) which existed before the Greeks tried to amalgamate them into one 'religion'. part of which found its way into Roman culture - the Isis cult - which bore little or no resemblence to the several personifications of that deity in Egypt below the Delta.
-
( I know a bit about Celtic spirituality, the Christian side of it at any rate )
Is it me or does that sound contradictory ???
-
( I know a bit about Celtic spirituality, the Christian side of it at any rate )
Is it me or does that sound contradictory ???
Must be you.....'cos there's a great deal of Celtic spirituality as a hangover from pre Christian days inherant in the worship initiated by Columcille on Iona.
-
But does that mean it's 'IN' Christianity at all?
-
But does that mean it's 'IN' Christianity at all?
[/quote
I don't want to derail Owl's thread.
Should you wish, start a new thread on the Christian board.
-
Owl
First question on the comprehensive detail in your #9.
Am I right in thinking that the likes of Samhain have Celtic origins in northern Europe? I was wondering to what extent the Romans, who were known for assimilating stuff, incorporated any of these into their festivals. For example, was their Saturnalia part of their Mediterranean culture or does in relate to cultures they encountered that had forms of mid-winter festivals?
Please give me a little time to investigate. I have never, to be truthful, investigated most of the kind of connections that you refer to. As I have said, most of my research has been into the Craft side.
-
But does that mean it's 'IN' Christianity at all?
I don't want to derail Owl's thread.
Should you wish, start a new thread on the Christian board.
Thanks for that, Anchorman, you saved me from saying it.
-
Sorry I diverted it a wee bit!
-
For what its' worth, I know a bit about Celtic spirituality, the Christian side of it at any rate, some of which is drawn from pagan tradition in the pre-Celtic Dalriada. Elsewhere, I've often mired myself in the very complex convoluted Egyptian religion(s) which existed before the Greeks tried to amalgamate them into one 'religion'. part of which found its way into Roman culture - the Isis cult - which bore little or no resemblence to the several personifications of that deity in Egypt below the Delta.
As I stated in the OP, I can only answer from my own experience and knowledge which quite clearly, on the deatils of the spiritual side is limited to those parts used in the rituals of my Coven. In the interest of expanding said meagre knowledge I would be happy to hear, again as stated in the OP, and learn, from what you know.
I have read some minor works on the Egyptian pantheon which is quite large and the interactions between the various deities is realy rather convoluted. This is one of the reasons that I have not yet delved into them in any depth.
It looks like I will have to start!
-
When I studied for my degree in Egyptology, we were advised to have either paracetamol or alcohol in close proximity when we dealt with the religion. As religion filled most of the three millenia of history, it was a pain filled - but happy - time...... Seriously, I remember trying to count the creation myths and creator gods rat one point. I got to eight different creation stories (I've found another two since) and the creator god named variously as Atum, Nefertum, Geb, Shu, Re, Amun, Ma'at, Nut or, in one rather confused account, Horus. It gets more complicated from there......maybe the Greeks had the right idea when they tried to compose a central theology for Egypt - written in Alexandria, popular amongst the Greco-Romans, but blithely ignored by the Egyptians, who managed to continue to juggle several contending theology strands at the same time and live perfectly happily with the result! (And I haven't even mentioned the Aten.....)
-
When I studied for my degree in Egyptology, we were advised to have either paracetamol or alcohol in close proximity when we dealt with the religion. As religion filled most of the three millenia of history, it was a pain filled - but happy - time...... Seriously, I remember trying to count the creation myths and creator gods rat one point. I got to eight different creation stories (I've found another two since) and the creator god named variously as Atum, Nefertum, Geb, Shu, Re, Amun, Ma'at, Nut or, in one rather confused account, Horus. It gets more complicated from there......maybe the Greeks had the right idea when they tried to compose a central theology for Egypt - written in Alexandria, popular amongst the Greco-Romans, but blithely ignored by the Egyptians, who managed to continue to juggle several contending theology strands at the same time and live perfectly happily with the result! (And I haven't even mentioned the Aten.....)
Aten - was he not the one who tried to change the entire religious structure? The one with a curious cranial and facial structure whose every statue was destroyed upon his death?
Or, as is more likely, have I got about fifteen different threads totally mixed up?
-
That was Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten - the one certain lunatic fringe Christians claim as a proto-Moses, and other rubbish in similar style. The truth is a lot more complicated, though. The weird iconography seems to portray him and his wife, Nefertiti, not as mis-shapen freaks, but as Shu and Tefnut, brother-sister deities associated with their 'father' Ra, in creation. The Aten was an evolving concept over several centuries - a solar deity incorporating the deified aspect of kingship (How's that for jargon?)
-
If you're interested in Akhenaten and the thoughts behind his religious revolution, this page http://www.osirisnet.net/docu/akhenaton/e_akhenaton_02.htm shows the evolution of the name of the deity - and you'll note it's far more traditionally Egyptian than many 'monotheist advocates' might have you believe. If you're up to a read, Nicolas Reeves brilliant "Akhenaten: Egypt's false prophet' is definately worth a look.
-
Owl
First question on the comprehensive detail in your #9.
Am I right in thinking that the likes of Samhain have Celtic origins in northern Europe? I was wondering to what extent the Romans, who were known for assimilating stuff, incorporated any of these into their festivals. For example, was their Saturnalia part of their Mediterranean culture or does in relate to cultures they encountered that had forms of mid-winter festivals?
The possible/probable cross-pollination between the various pre-Christian societies is, as far as I can see, one of those historical events that will, probably, never be fully explained or understood to the satisfaction of anyone involvd in the discussion. For Paganism especially the Rconstructionists!
I am of the opinion that, with various invasions, conquerings and assimilations and interbreedings, it was almost inevitable. What I do not see as being likely is an imposition of one groups beliefs upon another beyond a local area; certainly I do not see, from my researches, so far anyway, signs of an imposition as vicious or violent as that seen during the imposition of Christianity.
Even a cursory look at the deities of Greece, Rome, Egypt, Scandinavia, Germany, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England shows that the same deities appear with the same powers or attributes but "local" names.
-
Sorry I diverted it a wee bit!
No matter, you point is actually well taken.
There are very early churches in England , and probably elsewhere in the British Isles, where pre-Christian symbols are found carved into wood or stone - the most commonly reported are carvings of the Sheela Na Gig, the grotesque female figure holding wide open her exaggerated genitals. Needless to say they are now hard to find - those that could be found easily were removed P D Q.
Many of the early Christian churches were built on sites where Pagan festivals/rituals were held as it made it easier to get the locals into church at a place they were used to using for worship.
Ditto, of course, the practice of placing Christian celebrations on dates that were familiar to Pagans; Christmas, for some unknown reason, comes instantly to mind.
Plus the veneration of the Virgin to replace the Pagan Goddesses.
-
If you're interested in Akhenaten and the thoughts behind his religious revolution, this page http://www.osirisnet.net/docu/akhenaton/e_akhenaton_02.htm shows the evolution of the name of the deity - and you'll note it's far more traditionally Egyptian than many 'monotheist advocates' might have you believe. If you're up to a read, Nicolas Reeves brilliant "Akhenaten: Egypt's false prophet' is definately worth a look.
I have (finally) got round to printing the page you quote above - a quick flash through it gave me a grin - the "Short" bibliography! I would sure as eggs are eggs hate to see the "Full" version.
-
Owlswing
What are your thoughts on Saturnalia? I knew Saturn and Satan were linked but in this article it says Satan is behind all pagan deities. Now, take a deep breath before you reply, I'm not trying to catch you out, but to get to the truth.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Neglected_Commandments/Idolatry/Satan%27s_Birthday
-
Owlswing
What are your thoughts on Saturnalia? I knew Saturn and Satan were linked but in this article it says Satan is behind all pagan deities. Now, take a deep breath before you reply, I'm not trying to catch you out, but to get to the truth.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Neglected_Commandments/Idolatry/Satan%27s_Birthday
Begging the question about Saturn/Satan so you are not actually discussing anything
-
Begging the question about Saturn/Satan so you are not actually discussing anything
Well, I'm just wondering if Owlswing agrees with the article because I don't agree with some of it.
-
No matter, you point is actually well taken. There are very early churches in England , and probably elsewhere in the British Isles, where pre-Christian symbols are found carved into wood or stone - the most commonly reported are carvings of the Sheela Na Gig, the grotesque female figure holding wide open her exaggerated genitals. Needless to say they are now hard to find - those that could be found easily were removed P D Q. Many of the early Christian churches were built on sites where Pagan festivals/rituals were held as it made it easier to get the locals into church at a place they were used to using for worship. Ditto, of course, the practice of placing Christian celebrations on dates that were familiar to Pagans; Christmas, for some unknown reason, comes instantly to mind. Plus the veneration of the Virgin to replace the Pagan Goddesses.
You don't need to look at churches to see the transition from Paganism to Christianity, though. The Pictish cstones of the eighth and ninth centuries show an amalgum of both - almost as if those for whom they were carved were hedging their bets! There's a reasonably comprehensive page with some good images here: http://www.ancient.eu/picts/
-
Owlswing
What are your thoughts on Saturnalia? I knew Saturn and Satan were linked but in this article it says Satan is behind all pagan deities. Now, take a deep breath before you reply, I'm not trying to catch you out, but to get to the truth.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Neglected_Commandments/Idolatry/Satan%27s_Birthday
Can I get one thing about pagans and Paganism sorted immediately.
No issue is likely to get a the mentioner consigned more quickly to the title of "fuck-wit" quicker than that of Satan, Satanism et al.
One of them prime tenets of Paganism is personal responsibility! (Again I must say, this is to the best of my knowledge and understanding - others may differ) This is accepted by EVERY pagan that I have ever met.
It is enshrined in one of the only two Laws for pagans that I am aware of - the Law of Threefold Return - "That which you send out for good or ill shall be returned to you threefold".
Pagans do NOT believe in a little red man with horns, a forked tail and a trident whispering in our ear nto get us to do any number and sort of naughty things. So any attempt to connect anything to do with Satan to Paganism is bo . . . - nonsense.
I was born a Jew, by descent only - I never practised - the last practising Jew in the family was my maternal grandmother and she gave up practice as a result, she said, of the God of the Jews allowing virtually her entire family to be murdered in Auschwitz - and even she could never understand the way in which Satan was villified by both Jews and Christians as it was said, during R E classes, when asked why, if the Christian God was omnipotent, Satan/the Devil was able to operate in the world.
The answer given was that Satan/the Devil was allowed to operate so as to test the faith of humans and to mete out punishment to those whose faith was found wanting.
In view of the Romans having no respect for or connection with the Jews or, until Constantine, the Christians, I cannot see how the Saturnalia could in anyway be connected to Satan.
I have, on this forum read a lot of Christian bo . . . nonsense this is the first time that I have, via this forum, read Jewish bo . . . nonsense.
-
Owlswing
I knew Saturn and Satan were linked
I didn't! So much for a Grammar School education - to age 15 anyway!
-
Well, I'm just wondering if Owlswing agrees with the article because I don't agree with some of it.
which is entirely irrelevant to the statement where you stated Saturn and Satan are linked
-
Which is entirely irrelevant to the statement where you stated Saturn and Satan are linked
Saturn in the Saturnalia has nothing to do with the planet, the planet is named after the Roman god to whom the Saturnalia was dedicated, a god of agriculture.
The Saturnalia was the a festival of enjoyment of the bounty that Saturn provided, food and wine in huge quantities and was a huge week-long festival.
Early in the article quoted by SweetPea the (un-named) author states "Behind all Pagan deitiy worship stands Satan himself". He then gives a list of names of deities which he states represent Satan, a list that includes Yahweh! Yahweh was, as far as I can recollect, a god or the god of Israel and Judah.
However I note the spelling in the article shows that the author is an American, and this makes the whole matter a can of worms better left with the lid on it I think.
I knew that American Christians, for the most part, viewed Paganism and pagans as the work of the Devil, mainly because of the connection to (modern) witches, but I had most definitely NOT realised the same applied to American Jewry.
-
I see you quoted this, Owl: Behind all Pagan deity worship stands Satan himself. I also picked up on it - what a dogmatic statement! No room for discussion there.
It's a very unpleasant article, I wonder who wrote it. Biased or what? That's the thing about Wiki, useful though it is most of the time, anyone can write anything.
Good to know SP disagrees with some of it.
-
I see you quoted this, Owl: Behind all Pagan deity worship stands Satan himself. I also picked up on it - what a dogmatic statement! No room for discussion there.
It's a very unpleasant article, I wonder who wrote it. Biased or what? That's the thing about Wiki, useful though it is most of the time, anyone can write anything.
Good to know SP disagrees with some of it.
I looked both at the fact that it had a Wikibooks address and also that it quotes no author's name and I was going to ignore the question, but having read the article I thought that I might as well answer as it is no skin off my nose and it just might help SweetPea.
I would now like to hear exactly which bits of the article he disagrees with.
-
Owlswing
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection. I also don't go along with some of the Hebrew roots theology.
My disagreements were with Jesus Christ being thought of as a sun deity and also God known as Yahweh.... 'Yah' is a moon god.
Re Satan in paganism, this I struggle with too, as for me as a Christian I see all nature as God's creation.... so how can Satan be in nature?
Re the Wikibooks link.... I'm with you and Brownie on this.... Wiki can be biased so we have to use discernment.
*******
Nearly.... look-up Saturn and Satan..
-
Owlswing
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection. I also don't go along with some of the Hebrew roots theology.
My disagreements were with Jesus Christ being thought of as a sun deity and also God known as Yahweh.... 'Yah' is a moon god.
Re Satan in paganism, this I struggle with too, as for me as a Christian I see all nature as God's creation.... so how can Satan be in nature?
Re the Wikibooks link.... I'm with you and Brownie on this.... Wiki can be biased so we have to use discernment.
*******
Nearly.... look-up Saturn and Satan..
Ah evasion thy name is Sweetpea
-
Ah evasion thy name is Sweetpea
So what have I evaded, Nearly?
-
So what have I evaded, Nearly?
I asked you to justify a statement but instead if doing that you ask me to do your work for you - evasion.
There is no real link between Saturn and Satan
-
You are right, there isn't
SweetP didn't think there was, she just wasn't sure.
SP: I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection
I too didn't think there was a connection but have heard it said before so good to clarify.
SweetPea (you probably already know this but thought I would say being as it was mentioned; forgive me if it looks as though I'm trying to teach how to suck eggs!), Yah is a shortened form of YHVH, the Hebrew name for God. No vowels because the name of God was considered too sacred to be pronounced, hence the many names by which God is known, eg El Shaddai.
The Rastafarians pronounce and spell it, "Jah", as in hallelujah=God be praised
Yah or Lah is the name for the Egyptian Moon god.
Some Christians have been known to use the name, "Yahweh" (from YHVH) for God. The Jerusalem Bible did so at one time but so many people objected and the newer translations don't use it. Thank goodness.
(Edited to add a bit and punctuate)
-
You are right, there isn't
SweetP didn't think there was, she just wasn't sure.
SP: I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection
SweetPea (you probably already know this but thought I would say being as it was mentioned; forgive me if it looks as though I'm trying to teach how to suck eggs!), Yah is a shortened form of YHVH, the Hebrew name for God. No vowels because the name of God was considered too sacred to be pronounced, hence the many names by which God is known, eg El Shaddai. The Rastafarians pronounce and spell it, "Jah".
Yah or Lah is the name for the Egyptian Moon god.
Some Christians have been known to use the name, "Yahweh" (from YHVH) for God. The Jerusalem Bible did so at one time but so many people objected and the newer translations don't use it. Thank goodness.
Yes she did and does, see the post where she posts the link where she states
'I knew Saturn and Satan were linked but in this article it says Satan is behind all pagan deities.'
-
You are right, there isn't SweetP didn't think there was, she just wasn't sure. SP: I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection I too didn't think there was a connection but have heard it said before so good to clarify. SweetPea (you probably already know this but thought I would say being as it was mentioned; forgive me if it looks as though I'm trying to teach how to suck eggs!), Yah is a shortened form of YHVH, the Hebrew name for God. No vowels because the name of God was considered too sacred to be pronounced, hence the many names by which God is known, eg El Shaddai. The Rastafarians pronounce and spell it, "Jah", as in hallelujah=God be praised Yah or Lah is the name for the Egyptian Moon god. Some Christians have been known to use the name, "Yahweh" (from YHVH) for God. The Jerusalem Bible did so at one time but so many people objected and the newer translations don't use it. Thank goodness. (Edited to add a bit and punctuate) That bit about 'Yah' beeing the name for an Egyptian moomn god..... That opens a bucketload of worms! Firstly, there were no vowels in the Egyptian hieroglyphs. However, the name of the deity, which seems to be an aspect of Amun or Min in his ithyphallic form), is probably better read as 'Ah' - and forms the root of several Royal names in the second Intermediate period and eighteenth dynasty - e.g Ahotep, Ahemes-nefertari, King Ahmose, etc. The name 'YAH' first apears on a wall on Karnak temple built by Amenhotep III. to commemorate a minor campaign in what is now Palestine.
-
That bit about 'Yah' beeing the name for an Egyptian moomn god..... That opens a bucketload of worms! Firstly, there were no vowels in the Egyptian hieroglyphs. However, the name of the deity, which seems to be an aspect of Amun or Min in his ithyphallic form), is probably better read as 'Ah' - and forms the root of several Royal names in the second Intermediate period and eighteenth dynasty - e.g Ahotep, Ahemes-nefertari, King Ahmose, etc. The name 'YAH' first apears on a wall on Karnak temple built by Amenhotep III. to commemorate a minor campaign in what is now Palestine.
Thanks Anchorman! This is marvellous stuff. Knew I'd learn a lot.
It's possible, do you think, that "Yah" is a word or part of a word that crops up in many languages? Particularly in that part of the world. Without looking it up, I seem to remember the word,"Lah", also referring to a deity.
-
Thanks Anchorman! This is marvellous stuff. Knew I'd learn a lot. It's possible, do you think, that "Yah" is a word or part of a word that crops up in many languages? Particularly in that part of the world. Without looking it up, I seem to remember the word,"Lah", also referring to a deity.
Hi, Brownie. The letter 'l' is somewhat problematic in heiroglyph or hieratic texts. There's plenty of evidence for names starting 'Ya-' (though not Yah) from the Hyksos occupation - a king Yacobaaam, for example, shows the Semitic roots of the word. 'Yah' occurse a few times in the New Kingdom, but it's in the late period - from the 26th dynasty, that YHWH had a functioning, sacrificial temple at Elephantine, on Egypt's southern border - to serve the Jewish mercenaries imported by Psametik I in order to stop a resurgent Kushite invasion. There is evidence of a second temple to YHWH in the Delta in Ptolemaic times.
-
That is well kushti, Anchorman.
I'll read it again tomorrow and hope some of it is retained :D.
Tiṣbaḥ 'ala khayr.
-
Studied it longer than 10 years my nephews partner has been a white witch over 20 years.
Not sure why someone would think they know more than the high priest and priestess of white magic or even Doreen Irvine who wrote from 'Witchcraft to Christ.'
I believe there is too much having researched it for ONE person to know more or better than those in the thick of it.
In 1973, Englishwoman Doreen Irvine published her autobiography, From Witchcraft to Christ. Just eight years earlier, an exorcist had expelled 47 demons from her body. Years before that, she was Queen of the Black Witches of Europe.
Since the late '60s, Irvine has given her Christian testimony countless times. She has appeared on 100 Huntley Street and in Christian documentaries about the dangers of the occult. (1) Her story has been cited by many Christian authors, including Russ Parker and the late Dr. Kurt Koch, as a reliable account of what witches and Satanists do (like many "former Satanists", Irvine used the terms "witchcraft" and "Satanism" interchangeably).
She was the first of many born again Christians who claimed to be ex-witches and/or ex-Satanists, among them women who claimed to have been high priestesses in destructive Satanic cults, so her testimony provided a sort of blueprint. Among such testimonies, many of the same elements recur time and again:
Moderator: Content removed as inappropriate for Faith Sharing Area
-
Doreen Irvine's book, which I read in the 1970s and since, is sensationalist nonsense!
There is a genre of such books, popular at one time, easily recognisable from their covers.
http://saff.nfshost.com/dirvine.htm
https://swallowingthecamel.me/2011/03/11/the-prodigal-witch-part-i-doreen-irvine/
https://darrylslibrary.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/from-witchcraft-to-christ-by-doreen-irvine/
There is much more information available.
Owlswing started this thread to inform us about Paganism/witchcraft. He will answer questions and tell us what he knows from his experience of being a witch and having studied the craft for many years; he has already says he doesn't know it all - no-one does - and that there are many strands. He is not trying to convert anyone.
We aren't all going to become Pagans or witches, we merely want to understand what it is all about a little better from an academic point of view and from an unbiased position.
If a poster cannot study something academically without bias it is better to look at another subject.
Anchorman has posted some very interesting and complicated Egyptology information which will not cause anyone to be 'spooked'.
(NS: just saw your last post. What SP says in your quote was a definite opinion, compared with what she said at beginning of her post where she appeared unsure, so there is some conflict. She'll probably come back and tell us what she thinks now, after Owlswing's long reply.)
-
Studied it longer than 10 years my nephews partner has been a white witch over 20 years.
Not sure why someone would think they know more than the high priest and priestess of white magic or even Doreen Irvine who wrote from 'Witchcraft to Christ.'
I believe there is too much having researched it for ONE person to know more or better than those in the thick of it.
Moderator: Content removed as inappropriate for Faith Sharing Area
Sassy
Your comments above display your total ignorance of the subject loud and clear.
Only someone who "played" at being a witch and a pagan or deluded themselves into thinking they are pagan or witch would refer to themselves and others as "white".
There are no such things as "black" and/or "white" magic or witches. Magic in and of itself is entirely neutral. It is truly said by witches that "if you cannot curse, you cannot cure", both spells are basically the same, the difference is in the intent, the desired result.
Please get you nephew's partner to join this forum and speak for herself as, I regret to say, on this particular subject I would not trust what you say on the subject if you were swearing to the truth of your utterances while lying upon a stack of bibles fifty feet high - you have proved upon many occasions that you are incapable of rational thought on this subject.
I would aslo ask that you name the high priest and priestess of white magic
as, to my knowledge and, unlike you I actually practice the art, let me make my own judgement upon their authority, or, far more likely, lack of it.
I would also like to see what your definition of in the thick of it
is and exactly what the it
is. Obviously you would have to start your own thread to do this on another topic!
As to Doreen Irvine, there can be few people in this world held in greater contempt by the Pagan/Craft community.
To end, I am surprised that it has taken you this long to bring your bile to this thread.
I thank the Moderator for his intervention upon my behalf.
-
Owl: "As to Doreen Irvine, there can be few people in this world held in greater contempt by the Pagan/Craft community."
I'm not surprised. There aren't many Christians who esteem her either.
At least now we've got her out of the way and the discussion can move on.
-
Owl: "As to Doreen Irvine, there can be few people in this world held in greater contempt by the Pagan/Craft community."
I'm not surprised. There aren't many Christians who esteem her either.
At least now we've got her out of the way and the discussion can move on.
I wish that I could be so confident about 'moving the discussion on'. We have yet to hear views or claims to knowledge from more than one Christian.
This, to put it mildly, is a disappointment as I would have hoped that they would welcome the opportunity to tell me what a load of old rowlocks (edited as I am speaking to a lady) I am trying to foist onto the gullible of this forum.
Another notable absentee is, of course, the Grand Wizard of Isms and Ologies to whom I would have thought this thread offered opportunities beyond their wildest dreams!
Edited for probable breaches of Topic etiquette.
-
Give it time, Owl.
People tend to forget the Faith Sharing area, preferring the cut and thrust of the Christian and R&E sections.
Ad_o has had the same problem with his Orthodoxy thread but I'm hoping others will join in.
That's life I'm afraid but it's not personal.
NS will no doubt be back to make sure your respondents are behaving and to add a bit, and Anchorman makes wondrous posts (still trying to work out the one he did last night :) ).
I can't see the people you have mentioned being interested, quite honestly; I could be wrong of course.
T8 might be, Gonners and Prof Davey. They probably haven't noticed it yet.
Perhaps, if the subject comes up elsewhere, you could point people in this direction. I will.
-
Just because Christians accept the path we've chosen does not mean we shoudn't respect - or be interested in - the beliefs of others. The vitriol some of my fellow believers pour on others' choice saddens me. I may not agree with that choice, but treating it with contempt serves no purpose.
-
Agree entirely.
Problem is when certain religions brag that THEY are the best for ALL humankind etc etc & ALL non-believers are less than animals. ::) >:(
Anyone who knows my views on a certain religion will guess which one !?!?!? ;)
Nick
-
Just because Christians accept the path we've chosen does not mean we shoudn't respect - or be interested in - the beliefs of others. The vitriol some of my fellow believers pour on others' choice saddens me. I may not agree with that choice, but treating it with contempt serves no purpose.
Thank you.
It is that which grates most for me.
If I, and I regret that I am guilty of it, am contemptuous of Christians on this forum nit is wholey and solely becasue of that contempt that they show my beliefs.
I know that I keep banging on about this, but I really find it almost impossible to understand why it is that they can hold their beliefs in such high regard and all others in some degre of contempt andf yet get so irate, to the point of incandescence inm some cases, when the same contempt is directed against theirs.
And this is the "banging on" bit, when both their beiefs and mine are both matters of faith and not fact!
-
Give it time, Owl.
People tend to forget the Faith Sharing area, preferring the cut and thrust of the Christian and R&E sections.
Ad_o has had the same problem with his Orthodoxy thread but I'm hoping others will join in.
That's life I'm afraid but it's not personal.
NS will no doubt be back to make sure your respondents are behaving and to add a bit, and Anchorman makes wondrous posts (still trying to work out the one he did last night :) ).
I can't see the people you have mentioned being interested, quite honestly; I could be wrong of course.
T8 might be, Gonners and Prof Davey. They probably haven't noticed it yet.
Perhaps, if the subject comes up elsewhere, you could point people in this direction. I will.
Oh I understand that a topic such as this is not of interest to everyone.
I will be perfectly honest, I am amazed, and grateful, that those who have responded were gracious enough to do so.
I suppose, though, that those I have mentioned will not venture to this thread as they are well aware that their opinions, well posted elsewhere, will, like Sassy's, inevitably be "Off topic".
-
Studied it longer than 10 years
Wow, longer than 10 years study.
That's getting up to professor level had it been done formally at uni.
You must be what might be called an expert on the subject?
Well done you, 10 years.
How many books did read on the subject over that term? It must have been hundreds!
Just.....Wow!
However I suppose that on this forum it is probably best left to ask questions of any real expert ie someone who has been in the thick of it so to speak, by actually practising and living the life, - someone like, say - Owlswing?
I believe there is too much having researched it for ONE person to know more or better than those in the thick of it.
.....oh, you agree.....
Phew!
-
I know what passes as Paganism is extremely wide and covers a huge range of different beliefs.
I realise witches don't fly on broomsticks, have crooked noses, and a black cat which talks, ....... A lot of assumptions come from movies who like being dramatic and create a fearful picture.
Most Pagans I've met in RL just have a high regard for nature and are very individual.
One thing I have noticed is it's almost impossible to be an expert on it, because it is so " individual"
There are no set beliefs exactly, or what there are seem to be centred round old beliefs.
I suppose learning about one group, won't help me understand another group.
Nature and the seasons, tides and circles of life seem to be the things that binds them together.
Of course that varies as well, depending on where you are located.
🙂
-
I know what passes as Paganism is extremely wide and covers a huge range of different beliefs.
I realise witches don't fly on broomsticks, have crooked noses, and a black cat which talks, ....... A lot of assumptions come from movies who like being dramatic and create a fearful picture.
Most Pagans I've met in RL just have a high regard for nature and are very individual.
One thing I have noticed is it's almost impossible to be an expert on it, because it is so " individual"
There are no set beliefs exactly, or what there are seem to be centred round old beliefs.
I suppose learning about one group, won't help me understand another group.
Nature and the seasons, tides and circles of life seem to be the things that binds them together.
Of course that varies as well, depending on where you are located.
🙂
The first six words of your post have puzzled me. 'What passes for paganism' suggests that you do not consider what I and others practice to be 'real' paganism.
Before I comment any further I would appreciate it if you would explain exactly what you mean by these words.
-
The first six words of your post have puzzled me. 'What passes for paganism' suggests that you do not consider what I and others practice to be 'real' paganism.
Before I comment any further I would appreciate it if you would explain exactly what you mean by these words.
I'm not sitting in judgement of your Paganism, Owlswing.
Its just that the definition of Paganism is so wide, people could disagree on what paganism is.
For example, are Hindus practicing Paganism?
Are other indigenous peoples practicing paganism?
Then you have secular pagans and atheist pagans.
http://www.spiralgoddess.com/SecularPaganism.html
So when I'm saying what passes for Paganism, I'm meaning the definition is so wide it only really tells you the person has a special regard for nature.
I'm not saying you don't make the grade, but that your average atheist who has a deep regard for nature may not define himself as a Pagan. But someone else might.
It's so wide it barely defines people as a group at all.
Does that help?
-
I'm not sitting in judgement of your Paganism, Owlswing.
Its just that the definition of Paganism is so wide, people could disagree on what paganism is.
For example, are Hindus practicing Paganism?
Are other indigenous peoples practicing paganism?
Then you have secular pagans and atheist pagans.
http://www.spiralgoddess.com/SecularPaganism.html
So when I'm saying what passes for Paganism, I'm meaning the definition is so wide it only really tells you the person has a special regard for nature.
I'm not saying you don't make the grade, but that your average atheist who has a deep regard for nature may not define himself as a Pagan. But someone else might.
It's so wide it barely defines people as a group at all.
Does that help?
Technically anyone who does not follow the three Abrahamic religions is, according to those three religions, a pagan!
Atheists are not as they neither recognbise nor worship any deity.
I know about the atheist pagans and all the other tags that have had "pagan" attached to them, they can call themselves what they like - I can call myself a scientist, or a bishop, or an anarchist --- it doesn't mean that I am any of those things.
-
Technically anyone who does not follow the three Abrahamic religions is, according to those three religions, a pagan!
Atheists are not as they neither recognbise nor worship any deity.
I know about the atheist pagans and all the other tags that have had "pagan" attached to them, they can call themselves what they like - I can call myself a scientist, or a bishop, or an anarchist --- it doesn't mean that I am any of those things.
🙂
Instead of me presuming, it's best I think, if you have the freedom to define yourself.
So assume I don't know very much.
I know I came across witchcraft as a child, but that's not really the same thing.
A child's view isn't necessarily understanding something.
🙂
-
🙂
Instead of me presuming, it's best I think, if you have the freedom to define yourself.
So assume I don't know very much.
I know I came across witchcraft as a child, but that's not really the same thing.
A child's view isn't necessarily understanding something.
🙂
The resurgence of paganism was a follow on from GBG's bringing the Craft into public view on the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts.
The problem there was that for his branch of the Craft, what he called, and is still called, Wicca to be accepted as a bona fide path he invented a long history for it. This was accepted as there was no real way to check what he said because of the secrecy that he demanded - he was a Freeemason after all.
Wicca had spread a long way by the time of his death and that was when the history started to fall apart and Wicca gained a myriad of rival paths.
There is no unification of pagan paths - it is each to their own and a lot of groups guard their independence jealously and militantly and I am afraid that attitudes like some demonstrated upon this forum make the determination of these groups to fight tooth and nail against the non-pagan world, and, in some cases, against some in the pagan world, just gets harder.