Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: SusanDoris on November 20, 2016, 11:05:40 AM
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On the Saturday phone-in following the repeat of Any Questions there were many sensible comments of course, but the thing I always feel is missing from such programmes is an acknowledgement of the importance of, the need for and respect for the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc. There was one caller who was given a few seconds but perhaps he was the only one who picked up the phone!
Any thoughts on this, or is it just self-evident?
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Sorry SusanDoris but I think you need to give us a bit more context of what the discussion covered.
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sorry - yes, of course, I'm assuming telepathy! There was a question about how the education system should and could help children, e.g. children who have free school meals, to have more of a chance of getting to Oxbridge, as if all children should aspire to careers in law, teaching, etc etc.
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On the Saturday phone-in following the repeat of Any Questions there were many sensible comments of course, but the thing I always feel is missing from such programmes is an acknowledgement of the importance of, the need for and respect for the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc. There was one caller who was given a few seconds but perhaps he was the only one who picked up the phone!
Any thoughts on this, or is it just self-evident?
A very good point Susan and thank you for making it.
I do think though that the problem private sector workers as a whole have at the moment is with public servants yes there was support for junior doctors as long as
they didn't have to pay for it. In education Gove preached that schools should remain open for several more hours but on the same money and their workloads went up to the point where no one wants to do the job or at least only until something better turns up.
More people banged up yes but with less prison officers and I suppose we could go on.
So yes there is a sniffy private sector plus private sector workers so I would expect the expectation of more from utility workers for less...and certainly having lived for decades with no interruption in water supply I have experienced unannounced water cuts twice in the past eighteen months...it hits you straight away and you then immediately appretiate the job they do.
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Agreed. Thank you for posting.
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sorry - yes, of course, I'm assuming telepathy! There was a question about how the education system should and could help children, e.g. children who have free school meals, to have more of a chance of getting to Oxbridge, as if all children should aspire to careers in law, teaching, etc etc.
I'm still not entirely sure what you mean, but I will give a stab at what I think you mean.
If I am getting you right you are challenging the notion that kids from poor backgrounds should aspire to be middle class - e.g. lawyers, teachers etc. That should not feel to compelled to follow the perceived aspirational drive.
Well that's all very well, but it is easy to see the importance of being able choose one's own path, be it lawyer, teacher, potter, poet, chocolate maker if all those paths are open and none have the downside of being unable to make ends meet and to create a better life for your family and your children.
But that is really the prerogative of those already firmly ensconced in the middle classes, where those options are all open if you have money behind you. You can risk trying your hand as a poet, potter or chocolate maker, safe in the knowledge that were you to fail you can fall back on your education and inheritance. For most that isn't the case and the middle class privilege of being an aspirational potter isn't available as there is the rent to pay, the debts to pay off, the children's future to consider.
So the middle classes who are already the 'haves' may look down on those from poorer background who aspire to their fundamental freedom - the freedom of relative wealth - and sneer. But they shouldn't, because aspiration is all about making life that bit better and easier for your kids, who in turn will do so for their kids etc. So we should celebrate people from poor backgrounds who aspire to (or support their kids) to get a good education, to become a lawyer or a doctor, or a teacher because that is all about providing opportunities and security to the next generation that they didn't have themselves. And a darned good thing that is too.
And I speak at a product of classic generational aspiration - my grandfather worked in a market garden (the poor relation of a farm hand), my parents were a docker and a nurse - I was the part of the first generation of my family to go to university and became a classic middle class professional (an academic) - my kids take for granted that they will go to university and go into a professional career, the question is which university. Each generation have attained more than the last and through hard work created opportunities for their children unknown to themselves.
Now you may be scratching you head at the reference to a chocolate maker - well it was deliberate. A few years ago there was a tv series about a man who set up a business as chocolate maker, risking all on a small business venture and traveling the world to find obscure recipes involving chocolate - classic following your dreams stuff, none of the boring tedium and safety of being a lawyer or a teacher for him. But here is the catch - when you checked his background he went to Eton and had substantial inherited wealth - there was no risk to him at all. His background meant he could 'play' at being a chocolate maker (or a poet, or a potter) safe in the knowledge that if everything went pear shaped he was financially secure and could fall back in his inherited wealth, and (crucially) his connections. Ever wondered how you can get a whole tv series effectively promoting your small chocolate business - well it helps if you went to the right school and have plenty of contacts high up in the media.
So let's not sneer at aspirational kids from poor backgrounds who aspire to being a teacher or a lawyer, or a doctor when they've never known someone in their family, or from their neighbourhood, achieve this. And who will commit to education to achieve their aspiration. Nope, lets celebrate them.
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I'm still not entirely sure what you mean, but I will give a stab at what I think you mean.
If I am getting you right you are challenging the notion that kids from poor backgrounds should aspire to be middle class - e.g. lawyers, teachers etc. That should not feel to compelled to follow the perceived aspirational drive.
Well that's all very well, but it is easy to see the importance of being able choose one's own path, be it lawyer, teacher, potter, poet, chocolate maker if all those paths are open and none have the downside of being unable to make ends meet and to create a better life for your family and your children.
But that is really the prerogative of those already firmly ensconced in the middle classes, where those options are all open if you have money behind you. You can risk trying your hand as a poet, potter or chocolate maker, safe in the knowledge that were you to fail you can fall back on your education and inheritance. For most that isn't the case and the middle class privilege of being an aspirational potter isn't available as there is the rent to pay, the debts to pay off, the children's future to consider.
So the middle classes who are already the 'haves' may look down on those from poorer background who aspire to their fundamental freedom - the freedom of relative wealth - and sneer. But they shouldn't, because aspiration is all about making life that bit better and easier for your kids, who in turn will do so for their kids etc. So we should celebrate people from poor backgrounds who aspire to (or support their kids) to get a good education, to become a lawyer or a doctor, or a teacher because that is all about providing opportunities and security to the next generation that they didn't have themselves. And a darned good thing that is too.
And I speak at a product of classic generational aspiration - my grandfather worked in a market garden (the poor relation of a farm hand), my parents were a docker and a nurse - I was the part of the first generation of my family to go to university and became a classic middle class professional (an academic) - my kids take for granted that they will go to university and go into a professional career, the question is which university. Each generation have attained more than the last and through hard work created opportunities for their children unknown to themselves.
Now you may be scratching you head at the reference to a chocolate maker - well it was deliberate. A few years ago there was a tv series about a man who set up a business as chocolate maker, risking all on a small business venture and traveling the world to find obscure recipes involving chocolate - classic following your dreams stuff, none of the boring tedium and safety of being a lawyer or a teacher for him. But here is the catch - when you checked his background he went to Eton and had substantial inherited wealth - there was no risk to him at all. His background meant he could 'play' at being a chocolate maker (or a poet, or a potter) safe in the knowledge that if everything went pear shaped he was financially secure and could fall back in his inherited wealth, and (crucially) his connections. Ever wondered how you can get a whole tv series effectively promoting your small chocolate business - well it helps if you went to the right school and have plenty of contacts high up in the media.
So let's not sneer at aspirational kids from poor backgrounds who aspire to being a teacher or a lawyer, or a doctor when they've never known someone in their family, or from their neighbourhood, achieve this. And who will commit to education to achieve their aspiration. Nope, lets celebrate them.
A post answering the question should the middle class look down on utility workers which ends up as paeon to the middle class* and fails to mention utility workers!
* also a love letter to a bleak Darwinianism.
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A post answering the question should the middle class look down on utility workers which ends up as paeon to the middle class* and fails to mention utility workers!
What on earth are you on about - who mentioned 'utility workers' - you not me. Given that there was no mention of 'utility workers' (whatever they may be) until your post, why should I, posting before you, be mentioning them.
And to actually answer your question - no, this wasn't a paeon to the middle class, but a recognition of the importance of aspiring that your kids have better opportunities that yourselves. Indeed there was no paeon to the middle class as I was actually critical of middle class patronising those with less opportunity with a kind of victorian romanticism of the struggles of the poor.
* also a love letter to a bleak Darwinianism.
What are you on about - there is nothing here about Darwinsim - indeed Darwinism would be anti aspirational on the basis that the 'survival of the fittest' aims to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. But actually aspiration and education has been phenomenal at lifting millions out of poverty and toward better lives across the world - and it isn't a zero sum game.
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A post answering the question should the middle class look down on utility workers which ends up as paeon to the middle class* and fails to mention utility workers!
* also a love letter to a bleak Darwinianism.
eh ?
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eh ?
My point exactly - although in true academic fashion I felt the need to argue the point rather than to use a single word to point out how pointless Spoof-boy's post was.
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What on earth are you on about - who mentioned 'utility workers' - you not me. Given that there was no mention of 'utility workers' (whatever they may be) until your post, why should I, posting before you, be mentioning them.
Well let's remind ourselves of the opening post shall we....
''On the Saturday phone-in following the repeat of Any Questions there were many sensible comments of course, but the thing I always feel is missing from such programmes is an acknowledgement of the importance of, the need for and respect for the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc. There was one caller who was given a few seconds but perhaps he was the only one who picked up the phone!''
Your case gets even worse if you underline your blindness to this line ''the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc.''. FYI the people doing that are known as utility workers.
A whole other class of people brought to your attention.
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again , It begins with 'C'.
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Well let's remind ourselves of the opening post shall we....
''On the Saturday phone-in following the repeat of Any Questions there were many sensible comments of course, but the thing I always feel is missing from such programmes is an acknowledgement of the importance of, the need for and respect for the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc. There was one caller who was given a few seconds but perhaps he was the only one who picked up the phone!''
Your case gets even worse if you underline your blindness to this line ''the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc.''. FYI the people doing that are known as utility workers.
And where is the mention of 'utility worker' (whatever that is), apart from by you. And for your information, just in case you don't understand, many of the old-style blue collar jobs in energy, water etc have long gone to automation - you are much more likely to encounter a highly trained graduate, professional engineer in a modern power station that a coal stoker.
A whole other class of people brought to your attention.
What like my parents?
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And where is the mention of 'utility worker' (whatever that is), apart from by you. And for your information, just in case you don't understand, many of the old-style blue collar jobs in energy, water etc have long gone to automation - you are much more likely to encounter a highly trained graduate, professional engineer in a modern power station that a coal stoker.
What like my parents?
If there had been a truly tripartite education system and less snobbery we could be more like Germany now.
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and my parents too Prof.
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Please forgive any typos.
I'm still not entirely sure what you mean, but I will give a stab at what I think you mean.
If I am getting you right you are challenging the notion that kids from poor backgrounds should aspire to be middle class - e.g. lawyers, teachers etc.
No, in a perfect world all children could aspire to anything they wanted, but it is not a perfect world, nor will it ever be.That should not feel to compelled to follow the perceived aspirational drive.
More apologies for not making the OP longer as I certainly did not mean that all children should not have the chance to be able to pursue whatever goals they choose and should be supported in doing so. But whenever a discussion like this comes up, there is often the implication that if children do not aspire to academic-type jobs, they are somehow not thinking clearly or correctly.
! :Well that's all very well, but it is easy to see the importance of being able choose one's own path, be it lawyer, teacher, potter, poetchocolate maker if all those paths are open and none have the downside of being unable to make ends meet and to create a better life for your family and your children.
But that is really the prerogative of those already firmly ensconced in the middle classes, where those options are all open if you have money behind you. You can risk trying your hand as a poet, potter or chocolate maker, safe in the knowledge that were you to fail you can fall back on your education and inheritance. For most that isn't the case and the middle class privilege of being an aspirational potter isn't available as there is the rent to pay, the debts to pay off, the children's future to consider.
So the middle classes who are already the 'haves' may look down on those from poorer background who aspire to their fundamental freedom - the freedom of relative wealth - and sneer. But they shouldn't, because aspiration is all about making life that bit better and easier for your kids, who in turn will do so for their kids etc. So we should celebrate people from poor backgrounds who aspire to (or support their kids) to get a good education, to become a lawyer or a doctor, or a teacher because that is all about providing opportunities and security to the next generation that they didn't have themselves. And a darned good thing that is too.
And I speak at a product of classic generational aspiration - my grandfather worked in a market garden (the poor relation of a farm hand), my parents were a docker and a nurse - I was the part of the first generation of my family to go to university and became a classic middle class professional (an academic) - my kids take for granted that they will go to university and go into a professional career, the question is which university. Each generation have attained more than the last and through hard work created opportunities for their children unknown to themselves.
Now you may be scratching you head at the reference to a chocolate maker - well it was deliberate. A few years ago there was a tv series about a man who set up a business as chocolate maker, risking all on a small business venture and traveling the world to find obscure recipes involving chocolate - classic following your dreams stuff, none of the boring tedium and safety of being a lawyer or a teacher for him. But here is the catch - when you checked his background he went to Eton and had substantial inherited wealth - there was no risk to him at all. His background meant he could 'play' at being a chocolate maker (or a poet, or a potter) safe in the knowledge that if everything went pear shaped he was financially secure and could fall back in his inherited wealth, and (crucially) his connections. Ever wondered how you can get a whole tv series effectively promoting your small chocolate business - well it helps if you went to the right school and have plenty of contacts high up in the media.
So let's not sneer at aspirational kids from poor backgrounds who aspire to being a teacher or a lawyer, or a doctor when they've never known someone in their family, or from their neighbourhood, achieve this. And who will commit to education to achieve their aspiration. Nope, lets celebrate them.
Now, I don't usually leave the whole of a long post in a quote when responding because I just can't hold it all in my head, but I'm leaving it this time because you have, I think, done exactly what I was talking about. Yes, of course parents want life to be better for their children, but if all their children become the more comfortably-off middle class, or whatever one wants to call them, then that means you still need parents across the board to value all types of work and encourage their children to do so too, and to demonstrate by their own attitude to jobs that they are all of value since all are required, and none is less important than any other. When I was a child, my parents said, 'Be whatever you like, but whatever it is, do your best at it.' When I came home from living abroad, with no money and two children, I looked in the local paper for a job, not something that I thought was suitable for me, or my abilities and skills, but one that paid money, however small an amount. Okay, I knew that I would be able to do something to earn more , but if that had not come about, I would have worked at whatever jobs were going.
Both my sons work in reasonably high-paid jobs, and my granddaughters have jobs that are well paid for their ages. All of us rely on those with practical, technical skills, who enable us to live without having to survive unaded.
I'll just end by saying, what is a 'better life' anyway? And listening through this, I note you have used the word 'sneer' a couple of times. One thing I can say with absolute truth is that I do not 'sneer' at anyone. My ex did that to me until I had the strength to get away and I do not think I am 'better' or 'worse' than anyone else. equal is a word that is so important.
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I think it is time that we should dispense with the idea of identifying people as belonging to a class which implies a status of superiority and inferiority. It just emphasises snobbery rather than value to the community. For all their upper class status, I doubt whether there is any member of the royal family with the skills to renovate the gas and electrical systems in Buckingham Palace. I don't see any reason why a society can't value all its members without the need to classify them as upper or lower. It reminds me of a joke about the members of the human body vying for leadership, which I have put in the 'jokes' topic to avoid derailment of this one.
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And where is the mention of 'utility worker' (whatever that is), apart from by you. And for your information, just in case you don't understand, many of the old-style blue collar jobs in energy, water etc have long gone to automation - you are much more likely to encounter a highly trained graduate, professional engineer in a modern power station that a coal stoker.
But all the actual equipment they are using has been manufactured by people who might not be able to understand all the algorithms or whatever they're called, but know how to follow instructions to make the machines, using, of course, the machines made by others, who made the moulds from steel or something made to size ... all of them buying their food from markets etc...
What like my parents?
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If there had been a truly tripartite education system and less snobbery we could be more like Germany now.
Possibly true - but we'd need to understand that an engineer is a highly qualified graduate and not someone who fixes your washing machine.
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Possibly true - but we'd need to understand that an engineer is a highly qualified graduate and not someone who fixes your washing machine.
The latter is an engineer too, isn't he? !
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The latter is an engineer too, isn't he? !
Not in virtually any country but the UK. Engineering is a profession, just like Law or Medicine. In most countries you can only call yourself an Engineer if you are fully qualified - which means a degree and postgraduate experience to become recognised and receive chartered status from the professional Engineering body. Similar to a lawyer and a doctor. So in Germany the person who fixes your washing machine would be a repair technician, never an Engineering - but in the UK we seem to confuse the two. This is the equivalent of allowing a medical secretary to call themselves a doctor, or a dental assistant to call themselves a dentist.
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Not in virtually any country but the UK. Engineering is a profession, just like Law or Medicine. In most countries you can only call yourself an Engineer if you are fully qualified - which means a degree and postgraduate experience to become recognised and receive chartered status from the professional Engineering body. Similar to a lawyer and a doctor. So in Germany the person who fixes your washing machine would be a repair technician, never an Engineering - but in the UK we seem to confuse the two. This is the equivalent of allowing a medical secretary to call themselves a doctor, or a dental assistant to call themselves a dentist.
I agree Engineering is definitely a profession and you have to be well qualified to do it. One of my sons-in-law is an electronics engineer, he has a degree and frequently gets top up qualifications. He has had several high powered jobs over the years, his present job is particularly so.
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Not in virtually any country but the UK. Engineering is a profession, just like Law or Medicine. In most countries you can only call yourself an Engineer if you are fully qualified - which means a degree and postgraduate experience to become recognised and receive chartered status from the professional Engineering body. Similar to a lawyer and a doctor. So in Germany the person who fixes your washing machine would be a repair technician, never an Engineering - but in the UK we seem to confuse the two. This is the equivalent of allowing a medical secretary to call themselves a doctor, or a dental assistant to call themselves a dentist.
Indeed. And the person who is polite when he repairs your washing machine is not a civil engineer.
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Indeed. And the person who is polite when he repairs your washing machine is not a civil engineer.
;D
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Possibly true - but we'd need to understand that an engineer is a highly qualified graduate and not someone who fixes your washing machine.
well bloody said Prof
however he/she probably could fix your washing machine. :)
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If I can broaden this discussion a little:
I half listened to the Any Questions? repeat on Saturday. The fact that Nigel Farage was on the panel had lessened its potential interest for me. But it was a part of Farage's response to the question on education which attracted my attention. He said something like ... one of the problems of universities today are that they are producing too many graduates with "-ologies" rather than something useful.
Nigel Farage has never been to university. He has no direct experience of higher education. In my judgement, this is an additional weakness in his fitness to pontificate on the state of Britain today. I worked for a quarter of a century in HE and the institution which employed me progressed from college of technology, through being a constituent of larger, regional college, split into separate FE and HE instititions and the HE institution became a university from which I eventually retired.
Now, I do admit to having an -ology, psychology. I worked in a Business School where I was involved in subject areas such as research methods in business, quantitative methods, business communication and consumer behaviour. Frequently, students - eager to get to work doing something which they perceived as being a "hands-on" practical activity - would ask "Why are we doing this? We came here to learn (for example) marketing not this stuff."
My answer was always that it would be their employer's job to train them in their various work activities. What we were doing was to train them in skills which they would need when they had risen from operational roles to management and strategic roles. We were helping them to develop skills in analysis and evaluation, giving them the opportunity to be creative and to persuade and convince others of their conclusions and proposals.
This is the real educational purpose of all university programmes. For most students, the subject area they study is there to aid in their own development, it is a context within which higher level, general skills can develop. Some will stay in their subject areas and conduct research and expand understanding of that subject. Some, like medical students will become practitioners in the subjects they have studied. Most, however, will work in areas unconnected with the subject they have studied but their general higher level skills will be the key to their future progress and success.
Farage missed the point.
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The latter is an engineer too, isn't he? !
I think its mainly due to TV advertising bigging up their clients such as in the British gas advert. it angers me every time and confuses the public . it should be STOPPED
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HH I think you have too pal.
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Not in virtually any country but the UK. Engineering is a profession, just like Law or Medicine. In most countries you can only call yourself an Engineer if you are fully qualified - which means a degree and postgraduate experience to become recognised and receive chartered status from the professional Engineering body. Similar to a lawyer and a doctor. So in Germany the person who fixes your washing machine would be a repair technician, never an Engineering - but in the UK we seem to confuse the two. This is the equivalent of allowing a medical secretary to call themselves a doctor, or a dental assistant to call themselves a dentist.
I just wrote a reply and it has disappeared. *sigh* Try again.
Thank you - interesting. I suppose one could differentiate by using a capital E or a lower case e, but you can't do that in speech! I think the word 'technician' is becoming more widely used - I shall certainly use it myself in future. In fact last week I had an echocardiogram which was done by a young man who was not a doctor. That seems a very sensible idea, to use a technician to take the readings, and a doctor will be interpreting the results anyway.
(I shal find out next week whether my heart taking an occasional rest might do better with a pacemaker!! :) )
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I just wrote a reply and it has disappeared. *sigh* Try again.
Thank you - interesting. I suppose one could differentiate by using a capital E or a lower case e, but you can't do that in speech!
And do you think other highly qualified trained professions would be happy to do the same.
So should we have Doctors and doctors, perhaps Lawyers and lawyers.
Training to become a fully qualified Engineer takes pretty well the same amount of time, and is at the same level of qualification, as the education and training required to become a Doctor.
You can perhaps understand why Engineers get a tad miffed when people describe the person who replaces the thermostat on your radiator as a Central Heating Engineer!!
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And do you think other highly qualified trained professions would be happy to do the same.
So should we have Doctors and doctors, perhaps Lawyers and lawyers.
Training to become a fully qualified Engineer takes pretty well the same amount of time, and is at the same level of qualification, as the education and training required to become a Doctor.
You can perhaps understand why Engineers get a tad miffed when people describe the person who replaces the thermostat on your radiator as a Central Heating Engineer!!
Wiki gives a good description of an engineer .
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And do you think other highly qualified trained professions would be happy to do the same.
No, that was not what I meant - Using a screen reader I had not thought to increase the magnification to see whether it was E or e.
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HH I think you have too pal.
And how is my post not related to "Education and aspirations"?
Particularly when it related to a comment by Nigel Farage in the Any Questions? discussion of the very topic the OP is about?
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And how is my post not related to "Education and aspirations"?
Particularly when it related to a comment by Nigel Farage in the Any Questions? discussion of the very topic the OP is about?
didn't say it wasn't,
the point you've missed is the one made by Nigel Farage.
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Nigel Farage was not making a point. He was merely exposing yet another flaw in his ill-considered and destructive philosophy: he does not understand the difference between education and training.
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Nigel Farage was not making a point. He was merely exposing yet another flaw in his ill-considered and destructive philosophy: he does not understand the difference between education and training.
judging by your post n#25 , he does
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If I can broaden this discussion a little:
I half listened to the Any Questions? repeat on Saturday. The fact that Nigel Farage was on the panel had lessened its potential interest for me. But it was a part of Farage's response to the question on education which attracted my attention. He said something like ... one of the problems of universities today are that they are producing too many graduates with "-ologies" rather than something useful.
Nigel Farage has never been to university. He has no direct experience of higher education. In my judgement, this is an additional weakness in his fitness to pontificate on the state of Britain today. I worked for a quarter of a century in HE and the institution which employed me progressed from college of technology, through being a constituent of larger, regional college, split into separate FE and HE instititions and the HE institution became a university from which I eventually retired.
Now, I do admit to having an -ology, psychology. I worked in a Business School where I was involved in subject areas such as research methods in business, quantitative methods, business communication and consumer behaviour. Frequently, students - eager to get to work doing something which they perceived as being a "hands-on" practical activity - would ask "Why are we doing this? We came here to learn (for example) marketing not this stuff."
My answer was always that it would be their employer's job to train them in their various work activities. What we were doing was to train them in skills which they would need when they had risen from operational roles to management and strategic roles. We were helping them to develop skills in analysis and evaluation, giving them the opportunity to be creative and to persuade and convince others of their conclusions and proposals.
This is the real educational purpose of all university programmes. For most students, the subject area they study is there to aid in their own development, it is a context within which higher level, general skills can develop. Some will stay in their subject areas and conduct research and expand understanding of that subject. Some, like medical students will become practitioners in the subjects they have studied. Most, however, will work in areas unconnected with the subject they have studied but their general higher level skills will be the key to their future progress and success.
Farage missed the point.
Unfortunately, it's a fact of life today that unless you come from a fairly wealthy family, you have to seriously consider that actual value that a degree might be worth in terms of enhancing you future earning before you commit yourself to several tens of thousands of pounds of debt . . . which rather limits your options.
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Unfortunately, it's a fact of life today that unless you come from a fairly wealthy family, you have to seriously consider that actual value that a degree might be worth in terms of enhancing you future earning before you commit yourself to several tens of thousands of pounds of debt . . . which rather limits your options.
I used to talk to a bloke down the pub who had a degree in art history he hadn't worked for 5 years , didn't have a clue what he wanted to do. He became interesting after 6 pints of Theakstons.
Nice enough bloke but incapable of rewiring a plug.
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I used to talk to a bloke down the pub who had a degree in art history he hadn't worked for 5 years , didn't have a clue what he wanted to do. He became interesting after 6 pints of Theakstons.
Nice enough bloke but incapable of rewiring a plug.
The tragedy is that some people are taking on on all that debt and at the end of the process they have a degree but are virtually unemployable.
We have friends with a son who has a history degree - he works part time in a charity shop.
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The tragedy is that some people are taking on on all that debt and at the end of the process they have a degree but are virtually unemployable.
We have friends with a son who has a history degree - he works part time in a charity shop.
at least he will find comfort in knowing something about the old tat that comes into the shop ;)
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sorry - yes, of course, I'm assuming telepathy! There was a question about how the education system should and could help children, e.g. children who have free school meals, to have more of a chance of getting to Oxbridge, as if all children should aspire to careers in law, teaching, etc etc.
One of the points of education is to assess a person's skill and talents and give them the means to realise their potential. Trying to force people into inappropriate lines of work to suit an ideology is sheer folly. So all skills should be appreciated that help to keep a country, nation and peoples running smoothly. I would think that this is agreeing with your position. The thing about Grammar schools, and the like, is that a certain group of people are set a side from the main flow of society to get an uplift to their talents. The problem here is the 'setting a side' which means they lose the empathy with their fellow countryman. I think Comprehensives are better because of this as they can get their education, through streaming, and be in contact with the world they are going to be part of when they start their careers.
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One of the points of education is to assess a person's skill and talents and give them the means to realise their potential. Trying to force people into inappropriate lines of work to suit an ideology is sheer folly. So all skills should be appreciated that help to keep a country, nation and peoples running smoothly. I would think that this is agreeing with your position. The thing about Grammar schools, and the like, is that a certain group of people are set a side from the main flow of society to get an uplift to their talents. The problem here is the 'setting a side' which means they lose the empathy with their fellow countryman. I think Comprehensives are better because of this as they can get their education, through streaming, and be in contact with the world they are going to be part of when they start their careers.
not sure about the setting aside being the reason for loosing empathy. In my case I didn't have it in the first place.
In fact at about age 13 my first real ambition was to get out of the place I lived in.
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In fact at about age 13 my first real ambition was to get out of the place I lived in.
..well, nobody really likes borstal, do they? :-\
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..well, nobody really likes borstal, do they? :-\
hey, I went to a good school, it was approved
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hey, I went to a good school, it was approved
You're not alone there, Walter!
...at about age 13 my first real ambition was to get out of the place I lived in.
Me too.
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You're not alone there, Walter!
Me too.
did you succeed Brownie?
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What, in my Approved school? I suppose one could see it as character building.
I certainly learned a few new things.
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What, in my Approved school? I suppose one could see it as character building.
I certainly learned a few new things.
I think we have our wires crossed here!
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;D I think so too.
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;D I think so too.
the 'approved school ' line was a joke (from the 1970s) not a good one I admit . the bit about me wanting to leave where I was from was true though. when you said 'me too' then I asked if you were successful .simple
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Yeah, I realised that eventually Walter but I was sent to an Approved School for "Being in need of Care and Protection", when I was sixteen. I was there for two years.
It certainly was an education!
I also wanted to get away from where I lived and tried very hard, running away, going missing for periods of time, which led to the above - so I was successful in achieving that but definitely not in the way I wanted.
(Prior to all that I was at grammar school.)
Dunno about being successful generally, I'm still alive so I must have done something right.
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Yeah, I realised that eventually Walter but I was sent to an Approved School for "Being in need of Care and Protection", when I was sixteen. I was there for two years.
It certainly was an education!
I also wanted to get away from where I lived and tried very hard, running away, going missing for periods of time, which led to the above - so I was successful in achieving that but definitely not in the way I wanted.
(Prior to all that I was at grammar school.)
Dunno about being successful generally, I'm still alive so I must have done something right.
now I see where the confusion arose . A very interesting story there Brownie. I know this will sound strange but I feel I know you!
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Hee hee, I doubt it, Walter. The only Walter I ever knew was my dad and he has not been around since 1973!
You may have known people with a similar story, though.
What happened to me in the 1960s would not happen now. I had no rights at all when I was sixteen and wasn't listened to or even particularly cared about. Same for the other girls with whom I spent two years, some of them were really great characters with backgrounds and stories that would break your heart.
It certainly was an education. One positive from the experience was that I became kinder, more empathetic.
Still, long time ago. I'm 66 going on 67, about time I put it all behind me :D.
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Hee hee, I doubt it, Walter. The only Walter I ever knew was my dad and he has not been around since 1973!
I once met a guy who was carrying a long pole down the street.
I asked him 'Are you a pole vaulter?'
He said "No, I'm German - and how on earth do you know my christian name?"
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Unfortunately, it's a fact of life today that unless you come from a fairly wealthy family, you have to seriously consider that actual value that a degree might be worth in terms of enhancing you future earning before you commit yourself to several tens of thousands of pounds of debt . . . which rather limits your options.
Firstly that completely misunderstand the way student finance works, but sadly it is a common misconception.
If you are from a poor background there will be a bursary to reduce tuition fee costs and secondly there is nothing to pay up front, so there isn't a question of 'not being able to afford it'.
Sure the debt needs to be paid off, but it is only payable once you reach a particular level of earnings, so if you don't earn much you pay very little (or nothing back). Also it is paid at a set rate and time limited - so if over a lifetime you earn little you won't pay the full amount back - indeed possible you might pay nothing back (unlikely but possible).
And there is amply evidence that the additional earning power over a working lifetime if you have a degree significantly out ways the levels of debt payable for that degree. Sure you can find examples that buck the trend - the millionaire that left school at 16 - but on average if you have a degree you will have better opportunities, more choice and way better earning power over your working life than if not. And, of course, that even continues after you have retired, as the likely pension levels for graduates (which link of course to that working life earning power) are greater than for non graduates.
So don't perpetuate the myth that having a degree doesn't make sense in purely financial terms - it does. But of course a degree provides much more than just money, it opens up career opportunities that are simply unavailable to those without a degree.
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One of the points of education is to assess a person's skill and talents and give them the means to realise their potential. Trying to force people into inappropriate lines of work to suit an ideology is sheer folly.
Agreed - but it is also sheer folly to try to force a view that a certain type of job (e.g. lawyer, doctor) isn't for 'people like you' (i.e. from poor backgrounds without a tradition of higher education and entering the professions) - where kids have the potential and the ambition we should support that. Currently there is a far greater problem of kids from poor backgrounds being dissuaded from aspiring high than of kids being pushed into a professional path they aren't particularly keen on. Why, because in the first instance the decision is irrevocable - once a kid decides against going to University etc there is usually no route back. If a kid is pushed to become a lawyer against their will, they will simply choose at a later stage to move away from law into something else they enjoy, and with a legal background will likely find that relatively easy.
And on your empathy point - actually it is very important that there are people in our professions from a whole range of backgrounds, because of their wider ability to empathise. If all lawyers were rich, public school and Oxbridge educated how much harder would it be to empathise with the situation of a young man slowly descending into a life of petty (and then non petty) crime due to a chaotic and grindingly poor upbringing and having no prospects.
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Prof D: ... there are people in our professions from a whole range of backgrounds, because of their wider ability to empathise
That's very true and a lot of those went to grammar schools, their parents would have found it difficult to pay for education.
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Prof D: ... there are people in our professions from a whole range of backgrounds, because of their wider ability to empathise
That's very true and a lot of those went to grammar schools, their parents would have found it difficult to pay for education.
it wasn't the education which had to be paid for it was the uniform and every other piece of kit which almost crippled my parents' finances. I was the first kid in my extended family who got this opportunity and luckily for me they chipped in with various gifts of satchels, kit bags, boots , maths sets, Actually I am typing through tears as I remember all those lovely people who saw something in me at age 11 . They are all dead now but I will remember them always.
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Aw, that's lovely! I honestly didn't know grammar schools (& the minor public schools who gave free "grammar school" places, like the GPDST which is where I went), had more uniform than, say, the comprehensives. Everyone seemed to wear school uniform in those days, including ugly regulation indoor and outdoor shoes, stupid hats which had to be worn, heavy gaberdine raincoats and all the rest. I suppose the initial outlay was expensive, after that it was just a question of replacing things as they were outgrown or worn out. The only thing I liked was the scarf for some reason, I hung onto mine years after I was expelled, and the blazer wasn't bad.
The thing about regulation school uniforms is that there is no competition during the school week, parents don't have to supply endless outfits and shoes, especially for girls, and in my day clothes were a lot more expensive than now.
The local comp girls had to wear similar to us.
School uniforms are far more sensible and comfortable now, thank goodness.
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Firstly that completely misunderstand the way student finance works, but sadly it is a common misconception.
If you are from a poor background there will be a bursary to reduce tuition fee costs and secondly there is nothing to pay up front, so there isn't a question of 'not being able to afford it'.
Sure the debt needs to be paid off, but it is only payable once you reach a particular level of earnings, so if you don't earn much you pay very little (or nothing back). Also it is paid at a set rate and time limited - so if over a lifetime you earn little you won't pay the full amount back - indeed possible you might pay nothing back (unlikely but possible).
And there is amply evidence that the additional earning power over a working lifetime if you have a degree significantly out ways the levels of debt payable for that degree. Sure you can find examples that buck the trend - the millionaire that left school at 16 - but on average if you have a degree you will have better opportunities, more choice and way better earning power over your working life than if not. And, of course, that even continues after you have retired, as the likely pension levels for graduates (which link of course to that working life earning power) are greater than for non graduates.
So don't perpetuate the myth that having a degree doesn't make sense in purely financial terms - it does. But of course a degree provides much more than just money, it opens up career opportunities that are simply unavailable to those without a degree.
I can't agree with that prof. My grandson is in the position where he needs to make decisions about university and we have all spent time looking at the options.
Bursaries do exist in theory - but in practice are near impossible to obtain these days.
It's true that you only start to repay tuition fees when you earn more than a certain amount, which is fine if your degree sets you on course to become a 'high flyer', but if that is not the case, you have that 'payment ceiling' hanging over for a very long time, which will inevitably affect your credit rating and mortgage prospects. And of course, most students will require student loans, which have a much lower threshold for repayment.
Yes, a degree ought to give you much more than extra earning capacity, but if it doesn't give some financial benefit and you aren't quite well-of to start with, the 'benefits' of a degree might blight your life forever.
My grandson has managed to get an apprenticeship with college, so he is currently earning BTEC points that would give him more choice of possible universities and would allow him to skip the Foundation year, or alternatively he could go down the HNC route.
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Aw, that's lovely! I honestly didn't know grammar schools (& the minor public schools who gave free "grammar school" places, like the GPDST which is where I went), had more uniform than, say, the comprehensives. Everyone seemed to wear school uniform in those days, including ugly regulation indoor and outdoor shoes, stupid hats which had to be worn, heavy gaberdine raincoats and all the rest. I suppose the initial outlay was expensive, after that it was just a question of replacing things as they were outgrown or worn out. The only thing I liked was the scarf for some reason, I hung onto mine years after I was expelled, and the blazer wasn't bad.
The thing about regulation school uniforms is that there is no competition during the school week, parents don't have to supply endless outfits and shoes, especially for girls, and in my day clothes were a lot more expensive than now.
The local comp girls had to wear similar to us.
School uniforms are far more sensible and comfortable now, thank goodness.
I've still got my 'house' tie .
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One of the points of education is to assess a person's skill and talents and give them the means to realise their potential. Trying to force people into inappropriate lines of work to suit an ideology is sheer folly. So all skills should be appreciated that help to keep a country, nation and peoples running smoothly. I would think that this is agreeing with your position. The thing about Grammar schools, and the like, is that a certain group of people are set a side from the main flow of society to get an uplift to their talents. The problem here is the 'setting a side' which means they lose the empathy with their fellow countryman. I think Comprehensives are better because of this as they can get their education, through streaming, and be in contact with the world they are going to be part of when they start their careers.
Yes I agree. When the comprehensive system was first introduced, you couldn't falt the aims, that all children should be able to reach their full potential under the same roof, but the planning, the teachers, the right spaces, the money, etc were all insufficient to fulfil the aims, as most people with common sense knew!
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For my secondary education I attended an independent school, a Ladies College, as a fee payer, however it also took scholarship girls. The uniform was strictly observed, even down to the green knickers we were forced to wear! ::)
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For my secondary education I attended an independent school, a Ladies College, as a fee payer, however it also took scholarship girls. The uniform was strictly observed, even down to the green knickers we were forced to wear! ::)
Oh stop it Floo!
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Bursaries do exist in theory - but in practice are near impossible to obtain these days.
I am sorry but I have to occasionally speak from actual experience of running a university department and therefore knowing that bursaries are very real. Part of the agreement to allow universities to charge additional fees, up to £9k was an 'offer', whereby a significant proportion of that income is re-invested into bursaries for students from poorer households. They do exist very much in practice. And to give you an idea of the magnitude - the department I was head of until September provided nearly £600k in bursaries just last year. Yes that's right six hundred thousand pounds. Any student from a household with an income below £42k per annum gets a bursary in my university.
It's true that you only start to repay tuition fees when you earn more than a certain amount, which is fine if your degree sets you on course to become a 'high flyer', but if that is not the case, you have that 'payment ceiling' hanging over for a very long time, which will inevitably affect your credit rating and mortgage prospects. And of course, most students will require student loans, which have a much lower threshold for repayment.
You are getting a bit confused - if your income is low you don't pay back.
Yes, a degree ought to give you much more than extra earning capacity, but if it doesn't give some financial benefit and you aren't quite well-of to start with, the 'benefits' of a degree might blight your life forever.
But your latter point simply isn't true. Our Principal always makes this point at graduation - firstly that a degree does substantially improve earning potential, but that a degree provides much, much more than simply the ability to earn much more (on average) than those without degrees. But the point remains that graduates earn substantially more than non graduates and that additional earning power is greater several times over than the debt accrued in gaining that degree.
My grandson has managed to get an apprenticeship with college, so he is currently earning BTEC points that would give him more choice of possible universities and would allow him to skip the Foundation year, or alternatively he could go down the HNC route.
Many universities are now offering degree apprentices - in other words you gain a degree while also participating in a reputable apprentice scheme. Not sure what stage your grandson is at, but he might want to consider this option if his choices are still open.
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For my secondary education I attended an independent school, a Ladies College, as a fee payer, however it also took scholarship girls. The uniform was strictly observed, even down to the green knickers we were forced to wear! ::)
You are a tease, floo! However that was not unusual.
We had navy blue ones and I knew people in other schools who had brown, etc. We were supposed to wear them all the time but absolutely had to, with a regulation aertex short sleeved shirt, for gym. We wore ordinary ones, eg white cotton, underneath. They were pretty awful really but it was the norm in those days.
Did you like your school, floo?
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You are a tease, floo! However that was not unusual.
We had navy blue ones and I knew people in other schools who had brown, etc. We were supposed to wear them all the time but absolutely had to, with a regulation aertex short sleeved shirt, for gym. We wore ordinary ones, eg white cotton, underneath. They were pretty awful really but it was the norm in those days.
Did you like your school, floo?
I am not teasing, the games mistress used to check we were wearing the green school knickers! :o
I can't say I ever enjoyed school, especially my elementary one (4-14), I was bullied because my parents were better off than most! The Ladies College I attended was very much like Harry Potter's Hogwarts in many ways, many of the staff would have fitted in well there. The Latin master believed he was a ghost of a prophet, I kid you not!
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Wow! It's a pity I didn't live in the vicinity, it sounds good. Did they take boarders?
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Yes, a degree ought to give you much more than extra earning capacity, but if it doesn't give some financial benefit and you aren't quite well-of to start with, the 'benefits' of a degree might blight your life forever.
Recent analysis of graduate and non graduate salaries indicates that over an earning lifetime graduates earn £500,000 more than non graduates. Now I know debt levels are high, but even with debts of £50k you'd pay that off ten times over through the additional earning power from having a degree.
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Wow! It's a pity I didn't live in the vicinity, it sounds good. Did they take boarders?
No it doesn't, there was no need to, as nobody lives more than a few miles from the school.
I am still in contact with my geography mistress, now 90. I phone her once a month as she likes to hear my news. I still feel I should be sitting to attention though, as she was quite strict, but one of the best teachers! When I reached 60 she said I could call her by her first name as I was now an OAP! I found it hard at first as 'Miss' seemed more appropriate! ;D
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No chance of me having gone there then, with green knickers. Had to make do with the navy blue ones and no Hogwarts type teachers :(.
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No chance of me having gone there then, with green knickers. Had to make do with the navy blue ones and no Hogwarts type teachers :(.
The handwork mistress wore a black gown (no other teacher did) and fingerless mittens when teaching us, she looked like a witch and was only missing the hat! ;D
The chemistry mistress sat at her desk one day when her chair tipped over. There she was lying on the floor, legs in the air, with her long pink knickers on display. We all lifted our desk lids as we tried not to giggle! She righted herself and said, "Gals you may laugh!" ;D
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The handwork mistress wore a black gown (no other teacher did) and fingerless mittens when teaching us, she looked like a witch and was only missing the hat! ;D
The chemistry mistress sat at her desk one day when her chair tipped over. There she was lying on the floor, legs in the air, with her long pink knickers on display. We all lifted our desk lids as we tried not to giggle! She righted herself and said, "Gals you may laugh!" ;D
Brilliant
what an image , it could be a comedy sketch
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I am sorry but I have to occasionally speak from actual experience of running a university department and therefore knowing that bursaries are very real. Part of the agreement to allow universities to charge additional fees, up to £9k was an 'offer', whereby a significant proportion of that income is re-invested into bursaries for students from poorer households. They do exist very much in practice. And to give you an idea of the magnitude - the department I was head of until September provided nearly £600k in bursaries just last year. Yes that's right six hundred thousand pounds. Any student from a household with an income below £42k per annum gets a bursary in my university.
I speak from bitter experience. A year or so ago my grandson, was living with his father who was on benefit. They investigated the possibility of a bursary and were told that he was not eligible.
Maybe, if you know the right way to 'work the system' - it might be possible, but otherwise no.
You are getting a bit confused - if your income is low you don't pay back.
But your latter point simply isn't true. Our Principal always makes this point at graduation - firstly that a degree does substantially improve earning potential, but that a degree provides much, much more than simply the ability to earn much more (on average) than those without degrees. But the point remains that graduates earn substantially more than non graduates and that additional earning power is greater several times over than the debt accrued in gaining that degree.
Many universities are now offering degree apprentices - in other words you gain a degree while also participating in a reputable apprentice scheme. Not sure what stage your grandson is at, but he might want to consider this option if his choices are still open.
I fully understand that if your income is low you don't pay back your tuition fees, so if you intend to live the rest of your life on a low wage - no problem!
Likewise, if you get a 1st in the right subject you ought to get a very good wage and repaying the loan will not be a problem.
The problem arises if you get a mediocre grade or even a reasonable grade in the wrong subject - McDonnalds are full of Media Studies graduates, I have a friend who still has to support his 30something daughter who has a Fine Arts degree.
As far as my grandson is concerned, he is earning and learning and has time to reflect on his future. He is no longer certain that he wants to take a degree but his options are still open and he has plenty of time to decide.
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I speak from bitter experience. A year or so ago my grandson, was living with his father who was on benefit. They investigated the possibility of a bursary and were told that he was not eligible.
Maybe, if you know the right way to 'work the system' - it might be possible, but otherwise no.
When you apply to the student finance company you provide standard information of basic household income - this is used automatically to apply bursaries in accordance with the agreements universities made to allow them to raise fees. There is no need to 'investigate the possibility of a bursary' no need to 'work the system' all you need to do is to honesty respond to the questions on the student finance system and you (in our case and I think this is standard) will get a bursary if your household income is less than £42k.
I can't speak about your grandson's example specifically but I wonder whether there was income coming in to support him from his mother, which would necessarily (and rightly) be taken into account. That is, of course, to counter the ages old game (prevalent back in my day of maintenance grants) of parents claiming to be separated and for the child to be living with the one earning next to nothing.
I do have to ask though - who told you he wasn't eligible - I presume the student finance company as it is their information that determines eligibility.
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Dear Thread,
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/14/courageous-thinking-labour-education-jeremy-corbyn
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/aug/13/quarter-of-graduates-are-low-earners
A simple question you should ask yourself, how important is education? For me it is vitally important to the future of our country, if you agree with me then hopefully you agree it should be free to all.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Thread,
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/14/courageous-thinking-labour-education-jeremy-corbyn
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/aug/13/quarter-of-graduates-are-low-earners
A simple question you should ask yourself, how important is education? For me it is vitally important to the future of our country, if you agree with me then hopefully you agree it should be free to all.
Gonnagle.
Gonners
that is probably the best post you have ever made , well said :)
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but universities should stop with the 'Mickey Mouse' degrees though
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both my niece and her husband have 'ologies' she works in a shop and he drives home delivery vans for ASDA
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Brilliant
what an image , it could be a comedy sketch
There were a lot of incidents in my secondary school years, which would have made a great sit com!
The Maths mistress always wore knee socks. She was quite strict and had a thing about cats, I remember once she saw one just outside the classroom widow. She gave a screech and went running out to chase it away, it was hilarious!
The French mistress disliked the smell of oranges, if anyone had any in their lunchbox they were liberally squeezed all over her desk and chair!
One of the masters was having his wicked way with a girl in the sixth form, she was one of the prefects! :o At lunchtime if he was on duty he made us all stand as the she waltzed her way down the school staircase into the dining room. Once she was seated next to him we were permitted to open our lunchboxes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was the biology master's task to discuss human reproduction with the 5th year girls of which I was one, poor man was highly embarrassed. When he was getting down to the nitty gritty his face went bright red. He happened to be wearing a red tie, and the class cried, "Ooooh Sir, you are going as red as your tie." ;D
The Latin Master also taught geography, at which he was useless. Before he came into the classroom someone would ensure the maps in the map cupboard were stacked in such a way that they would fall out on top of him when he opened the cupboard. It happened each time, but he never seemed to cotton on! One day he decided to tell us jokes instead, when the headmistress entered the classroom with some visitors. Addressing the master she said, "Now Mr W what are you teaching the gals today?" He said he had been teaching us about sheep farming in Australia, the subject of one of his jokes! One wet lunchtime when he was on lunch duty he decided to tell us some ghost stories. They were quite scary, and he was in deep proverbial with the head after many complaints from parents!
There are many more anecdotes but those will suffice!
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Only Floos and courses?
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Floo keep em coming they are great stories
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Only Floos and courses?
very good :)
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Floo keep em coming they are great stories
Just one more then I will shut up. We did 'Caesar and Cleopatra' as a school play, which ran for three nights. On the last night one of the sixth form girls brought in some gin and put it into the drinks of the main players at the interval, they were completely sloshed by the time they went back on stage. It was hilarious, but when the head discovered what had happened I believe there was one hell of a fuss!
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both my niece and her husband have 'ologies' she works in a shop and he drives home delivery vans for ASDA
good for them - both workingearning money, paying taxes, etc. Whether young people have ologies or not, they should be adaptable and prepared to take a variety of jobs during their lives, whether they are what they actually trained for in the first place or not. The fact that they both have put in the hours of study required for their degrees will probably make them better able to do this.
Generally speaking, whatever jobs anyone takes on should never be considered not good enough, or too good, or demeaning because of their degrees.
I was talking to a builder one day (it was at the gym actually) and he was saying that he was no good at school, but that an uncle had told him to be a builder as he'd never be out of work. It didn't matter if he couldn't read the blueprint, he and his fellow workers were the ones who actually built the walls, etc. He had prospered.
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good for them - both workingearning money, paying taxes, etc. Whether young people have ologies or not, they should be adaptable and prepared to take a variety of jobs during their lives, whether they are what they actually trained for in the first place or not. The fact that they both have put in the hours of study required for their degrees will probably make them better able to do this.
Generally speaking, whatever jobs anyone takes on should never be considered not good enough, or too good, or demeaning because of their degrees.
I was talking to a builder one day (it was at the gym actually) and he was saying that he was no good at school, but that an uncle had told him to be a builder as he'd never be out of work. It didn't matter if he couldn't read the blueprint, he and his fellow workers were the ones who actually built the walls, etc. He had prospered.
I've read it somewhere Lord Sugar isn't very bright but he's done all right.
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. . .
I do have to ask though - who told you he wasn't eligible - I presume the student finance company as it is their information that determines eligibility.
Although he was living with his father at the time, his mother accompanied him to a university open day and I'm sure they asked all right questions. She is generally pretty 'savvy' but the verdict was - no chance of a bursary.
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I've read it somewhere Lord Sugar isn't very bright but he's done all right.
Walter.....You're fired.
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Although he was living with his father at the time, his mother accompanied him to a university open day and I'm sure they asked all right questions. She is generally pretty 'savvy' but the verdict was - no chance of a bursary.
Bursaries aren't decided on the basis of a conversation at an open day. They are decided on the basis of the information you fill in on your application to the Student Finance Company - and then they are applied automatically based on the University's rules.
As I said last year my department gave out £600,000 in bursaries with every student with household income below £42k (as declared to the Student Finance Company) getting one. Those with incomes less than £25k had bursaries at an enhanced level.
Maybe his mother was asking the wrong questions, perhaps she misinterpreted the answer, maybe including the income from both parents household income is greater than £42k - I've no idea.
But your original suggestion that bursaries only exist in theory but not in practice is utter non-sense as my departmental balance sheet very clearly demonstrates.
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Although he was living with his father at the time, his mother accompanied him to a university open day and I'm sure they asked all right questions. She is generally pretty 'savvy' but the verdict was - no chance of a bursary.
Can you tell me which university and which course.
As far as I am aware (and I should be aware given my profession) all universities have very similar schemes, which are in fact required by OFFA (the Office for Fair Access) in order to be able to charge fees up to £9k.
And a very cursory glance at 3 universities plucked at random (Liverpool, Leeds and Nottingham Trent) shows identical basic schemes - all are based on means testing via information given to the Student Finance Company, all are applied automatically and in no case do you need actually to apply for the bursary. There are differences in the level of the bursaries and the threshold for household income (so my university and Leeds give bursaries up to £42k income, Liverpool restricts to £30k).
But the point remains, the bursaries are very, very real and tens of thousands of students are benefiting from them as we speak.
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I've read it somewhere Lord Sugar isn't very bright but he's done all right.
Lord Sugar is quite bright actually, I'm not saying he's a 'high flyer' academically but well above average. He could have gone to a grammar school but was actually head hunted for a new, flagship comprehensive where he flourished. He did, however, drop out of the sixth form after one year because he felt he had learned enough for what he wanted to do - and went on to do it.
His autobiography, "What you see is what you get", was not ghost written but penned entirely by himself.
I loved it, though not particularly interested in business I was fascinated by the personal, family details and the way he described the era and circumstances in which he grew up.
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Info from a Soton university page:
http://www.southampton.ac.uk/uni-life/fees-funding/ug-fees-funding/financial-support.page
Bursaries of up to £3000 available for those on family incomes below £25000 (in addition to the normal SLC loans and with fees of £9K )
I don't recall the amounts of extra support and requirements for such being "standard" when my 2 applied for loans a few (3 and 6) years ago. I'm pretty sure it is up to the institution - though is based on the figures supplied to the SLC. In some cases other "rewards" are available depending on your A level results.
A detail - but not disagreeing in general, as it seems to me that the whole system, from start to end, is screwed anyway.
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Lord Sugar is quite bright actually, I'm not saying he's a 'high flyer' academically but well above average. He could have gone to a grammar school but was actually head hunted for a new, flagship comprehensive where he flourished. He did, however, drop out of the sixth form after one year because he felt he had learned enough for what he wanted to do - and went on to do it.
His autobiography, "What you see is what you get", was not ghost written but penned entirely by himself.
I loved it, though not particularly interested in business I was fascinated by the personal, family details and the way he described the era and circumstances in which he grew up.
I haven't read his autobiography, but your view doesn't surprise me at all.
I've always suspected that he was pretty smart. I doubt he would have been as successful as he has been had he not been. Sure he isn't a polished academic kind of smart, but that doesn't mean he isn't smart, nor that he lacked the intelligence to have attended university and been successful, had that been his desire. As it happens it wasn't - he was very keen to get out there earning in an entrepreneurual manner and good on him.
But for every Alan Sugar there are hundreds or thousands of other non graduates whose career prospects are limited by their lack of a degree.
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Info from a Soton university page:
http://www.southampton.ac.uk/uni-life/fees-funding/ug-fees-funding/financial-support.page
Bursaries of up to £3000 available for those on family incomes below £25000 (in addition to the normal SLC loans and with fees of £9K )
I don't recall the amounts of extra support and requirements for such being "standard" when my 2 applied for loans a few (3 and 6) years ago. I'm pretty sure it is up to the institution - though is based on the figures supplied to the SLC. In some cases other "rewards" are available depending on your A level results.
A detail - but not disagreeing in general, as it seems to me that the whole system, from start to end, is screwed anyway.
So that's Southampton to add to my list.
This mechanism was brought in in 2011 when the cap was removed on fees to allow them to rise to up to £9k. Every university was required to put in an 'offer' to OFFA (the office for fair access) effectively setting out a bursary scheme that would automatically apply to students from low income backgrounds. If they didn't do it or it wasn't considered generous enough, they weren't allowed to raise fees. Therefore all did and all universities (worth the name) have such a scheme, and they need to make sure that it works or else they are in deep, deep sh*t with the government.
You are correct too that some universities also offer additional 'excellence' scholarships for the very brightest students. But this is on top of the basic bursary offer to all students from low income backgrounds.
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Bursaries aren't decided on the basis of a conversation at an open day. They are decided on the basis of the information you fill in on your application to the Student Finance Company - and then they are applied automatically based on the University's rules.
As I said last year my department gave out £600,000 in bursaries with every student with household income below £42k (as declared to the Student Finance Company) getting one. Those with incomes less than £25k had bursaries at an enhanced level.
Maybe his mother was asking the wrong questions, perhaps she misinterpreted the answer, maybe including the income from both parents household income is greater than £42k - I've no idea.
But your original suggestion that bursaries only exist in theory but not in practice is utter non-sense as my departmental balance sheet very clearly demonstrates.
Open days are supposedly there to advise potential students and if they gave misleading information to my grandson, that probably means that they are giving misleading information to hundreds of thousands of others - but things have moved on. He may yet take a degree ... or not ... who knows?
My daughter (his mother) did note that the main emphasis in the presentations was on how easy it was to get the loans and to trivialise the implications (as I feel you are doing)
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Open days are supposedly there to advise potential students and if they gave misleading information to my grandson, that probably means that they are giving misleading information to hundreds of thousands of others - but things have moved on. He may yet take a degree ... or not ... who knows?
My daughter (his mother) did note that the main emphasis in the presentations was on how easy it was to get the loans and to trivialise the implications (as I feel you are doing)
May I ask again which university and which course - I will then check.
And why didn't you double check information on their web-site. While I certainly would never condone misleading information being provided, this may occasionally happen, either because the question was answered incorrectly, or because the question or the answer misinterpreted.
And no I am not trivialising the implications - but given the importance of student finance I find it surprising that you appear to have taken a single conversation at a single university (did your grandson only visit one, most prospective students visit a few) as indication that bursaries don't exist. They do and there are tens of thousands of students benefiting from them.
And you are massively exaggerating in your comment that 'they gave misleading information to my grandson, that probably means that they are giving misleading information to hundreds of thousands of others' - you are taking about the comments of one person, to you alone - I doubt that person spoke to more than a few dozen students and maybe it was only you that received misleading information (if that is the case). By the way always best to double check what is written in writing, which will be there on their web-site and probably in other written information.
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He may yet take a degree ... or not ... who knows?
In which case you are now (hopefully) aware that pretty well all universities (certainly outside of Scotland where different financial model applies) provide bursaries automatically on the basis of the information provided to the Student Finance Company. The details, namely the amount and the threshold for income will differ but they exist.
So please pass this information onto your daughter and grandson, and as a piece of advise I would always suggest double checking information you might have received verbally with what is provided in writing. Particularly as this is so important.
I'd strongly encourage your grandson to consider university and a degree, and certainly not to be put off by issues of finance. There are many reasons why a degree isn't right for everyone, many of them very valid. Concern about finance should never be one of those reasons. Don't forget that you don't pay anything back until earning £21k or more - which, you might want to note is higher than the average annual salary for non graduates.
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Walter.....You're fired.
Thank you, Lord Spoof.
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A simple question you should ask yourself, how important is education? For me it is vitally important to the future of our country, if you agree with me then hopefully you agree it should be free to all.
Gonnagle.
Easy to say, difficult to achieve. Someone has to pay for it, so if not the students, then all tax payers. And what that leads to is restrictions on numbers, as is happening in Scotland. So although university eduction is free, the Scottish government caps the number of students who are able to attend (and be paid for). So there is now a real issue of access to universities north of the border.
While the English system has plenty of flaws, because it is, in effect, self financing there is no actual cap on the students who can attend. If a student is good enough there will be a place somewhere - not so in Scotland.
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Almost anything anyone is planning is going to be wrong. The amount of change that will hit in the next ten years makes career planning for mist a joke.
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Almost anything anyone is planning is going to be wrong. The amount of change that will hit in the next ten years makes career planning for mist a joke.
NS will I win the lottery a week next Saturday, I've got a ticket ?
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NS will I win the lottery a week next Saturday, I've got a ticket ?
If you mean win with 6 numbers, no you are not. I may be wrong on that but the probability is that you won't. That's not hard to predict.
Looking at what's happening, and what has happened in the last century the change will only get faster. Note there is the possibility of a number of global disasters, but they also make career planning a joke. The change will get rid of millions of jobs. Sectors such like building will become robotised and three d printing. Sectors that you or I can't see how they will be touched may not exist in 20 years. There is nothing hard or big in this prediction. The hard prediction is what actual changes will be.
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If you mean win with 6 numbers, no you are not. I may be wrong on that but the probability is that you won't. That's not hard to predict.
Looking at what's happening, and what has happened in the last century the change will only get faster. Note there is the possibility of a number of global disasters, but they also make career planning a joke. The change will get rid of millions of jobs. Sectors such like building will become robotised and three d printing. Sectors that you or I can't see how they will be touched may not exist in 20 years. There is nothing hard or big in this prediction. The hard prediction is what actual changes will be.
aww chisel
I was hoping you'd say yes
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and I hope my three kids can keep up with it all , as for me I'm out of it.
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But for every Alan Sugar there are hundreds or thousands of other non graduates whose career prospects are limited by their lack of a degree.
The phrase 'career prospects' is interesting. It is something that nowadays seems to be a requirement of all people in work. But many people do not want - and know they do not want - to study more, take on responsibilities, etc and are happier in the work they are doing. As a teacher, you will know how, in a class or group, there are always those children who are leaders and others who are not. All should be encouraged to do their best at whatever they choose to do, but not criticised* for not wishing to do things they know would make them too stressed.
* not quite the right word, but can't think of a milder one
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Dear Prof,
Easy to say, difficult to achieve. Someone has to pay for it, so if not the students, then all tax payers.
Correct!! All tax payers, give your vote to Mr Corbyn and he will go after all the tax payers, or may be the words I am looking for is tax dodgers, funding problem solved.
And the plus side would be, next time you use Google or buy something on Amazon you will have that rosy glow inside that you are helping to fund our nations future.
Gonnagle.
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The phrase 'career prospects' is interesting. It is something that nowadays seems to be a requirement of all people in work. But many people do not want - and know they do not want - to study more, take on responsibilities, etc and are happier in the work they are doing. As a teacher, you will know how, in a class or group, there are always those children who are leaders and others who are not. All should be encouraged to do their best at whatever they choose to do, but not criticised* for not wishing to do things they know would make them too stressed.
* not quite the right word, but can't think of a milder one
I'm inclined to agree with you, SusanD.
It's important to have marketable skills but higher education is not necessary for that. On-the-job training is more useful and if it leads to a qualification, all the better.
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I am glad our girls were bright enough to go to university. I think that experience has stood them in very good stead. Our eldest went on to get a Masters degree and is currently studying part time for her Doctorate in Theology.
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I am glad our girls were bright enough to go to university. I think that experience has stood them in very good stead. Our eldest went on to get a Masters degree and is currently studying part time for her Doctorate in Theology.
I hope she finds it useful in getting employment, Floo
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I hope she finds it useful in getting employment, Floo
She has been employed ever since she left uni in 1993, she is now 46.
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She has been employed ever since she left uni in 1993, she is now 46.
proof, if ever it was needed.
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proof, if ever it was needed.
Proof of what?
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Proof of what?
That a degree can be useful, of course.
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When I was a mature student in teacher training, the B.Ed was just coming in. If I had gone on to take it, I would not havegot the safe job I did get because the recruitment of teachers had become muchmore uncertain.
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I remember that period well, Susan. There were quite a few unemployed teachers at that time.
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I remember that period well, Susan. There were quite a few unemployed teachers at that time.
Because I was a naturally ambitious sort of person, I thought I would probably aim for a deputy headship, but it did not take me long to realise that I much preferred to be in a classrrom with my class, where one was fairly autonomous. I did become Year Leader in a Middle School and very much enjoyed that role as I was still teaching directly.
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Because I was a naturally ambitious sort of person, I thought I would probably aim for a deputy headship, but it did not take me long to realise that I much preferred to be in a classrrom with my class, where one was fairly autonomous. I did become Year Leader in a Middle School and very much enjoyed that role as I was still teaching directly.
SD
what did you teach, and don't say kids?
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SD
what did you teach, and don't say kids?
reading writing rithmetic, P.E. basic Science, music, Art and Craft, etc. That's one of the other reasons I enjoyed teaching 9-11 year-olds - the variety in every week. At training College my specialist subject was French, but once in Primary Schools I had no wish to move to secondary.