Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Rachel Henderson on December 16, 2016, 02:07:56 AM
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Greetings my fellow Christian brothers and sisters,
I love to speak the truth and I have very serious questions that I think many believers would like to know the answer to. Can you tell me please why does God's word promise so much and yet fulfils so very little to nothing in the lives of many devout Christians, in terms of, for example: long life, health, peace, joy and happiness, etc? Instead, I've seen many atheists who live very healthy, prosperous and happy lives and they obviously don't believe in keeping God's commandments. Doesn't the Bible lose credibility in this way? Isn't this part of the reason why many people don't take God, His commandments or the Bible seriously?
In other words, why do not all devout Christians live long lives and have optimum health as countless scriptures promise, such as: Psalms 84; 90, 91; 103; Pr 10:27, etc?
There are many scriptures about healing:
Exodus 15:26 - “…I am the Lord who heals you.”
The scripture in John 10:10: states: "... I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."
Doesn't this scripture mean that God desires for us faithful Christians to be in optimum health?
Only when someone is healthy can he or she have life to the full.
Not when our bodies are incapacitated or debilitated by pain, sickness or disease.
Psalms 103:2-3 - Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases.
The verse in Proverbs 4:22 refers to God's word and states: "for they are life to those who find them and health to one’s whole body."
Many other scriptures state that God wants us healed and whole:
For example: Isaiah 53:5 - But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Jeremiah 30:17 - “I will give you back your health and heal your wounds,” says the Lord.
1 Peter 2:24 - "He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
Romans 8:11 - And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Romans 8:32 - He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
There are many examples of miracles and healings as recorded in the bible. Here are just a few scriptural examples: Leper in Galilee (Mt 8:1-4); Paralytic (palsy) at Capernaum (Mt 9:2-8); Man with a withered hand in Galilee possibly Capernaum (Mt 12:10-13); Women with issue of blood (hemorrhaging) healed at Capernaum during first preaching tour through Galilee (Mt 9:20-22); Two blind men at Capernaum (on the northern shore of the Sea of Galilee) (Mt 9:27-31); Two Blind Men Departing Jericho (Mt 20:29-34), Jesus raises a dead girl and heals a sick woman (Mk 5:21-43); and many others as we read in: Mt 4:23-24; Mt 8:5–7, 16-17; Mt 9:6-7; Mt 15:30; Mt 20:34; Mk 3:1-5; Mk 5:25-29; Mk 10:49-52; Lk 4:40; Lk 6:19; Lk 7:12-15; Lk 13:11-13; Jn 5:5-9; Ac 10:38, etc.
Psalm 107:19–20 - “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and He saved them from their distress. He sent out His word and healed them, snatching them from the door of death.
Psalm 91:3 - For He will rescue you from every trap and protect you from deadly disease.
3 John 1:2 - Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
Here is another example: Psalm 91: Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day, nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday. A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. If you say, “The Lord is my refuge,” and you make the Most High your dwelling, no harm will overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent. For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. You will tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. “Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation.”
The promise of blessings, including: peace, protection, happiness, healing, long-life and prosperity is not just in the Old Testament (Ex 20:12; Dt 5:16; Ps 34:12-16; Pr 22:9), but reaffirmed in the New Testament (2 Cor 9:10; Eph 6:2-3; 1 Pe 3:9-10).
Innumerable scriptures promise peace, joy, strength, protection, provision and prosperity. Here are just a few:
Ro 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ps 1:1-3 - Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and who meditates on his law day and night. That person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither— whatever they do prospers.
Ps 4:8 - In peace I will lie down and sleep, for you alone, Lord, make me dwell in safety.
Ps 12:5 - “Because the poor are plundered and the needy groan, I will now arise,” says the Lord. “I will protect them from those who malign them.”
Ps 16:11 - You make known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
Ps 29:11 - The Lord gives strength to his people; the Lord blesses his people with peace.
Ps 46:1 - God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.
Psalm 105:37 - He also brought them out with silver and gold, and there was none feeble among His tribes.
Ps 119:165 - Great peace have those who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble.
Ps 138:7 - Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you preserve my life. You stretch out your hand against the anger of my foes; with your right hand you save me.
Pr 10:22 - The blessing of the Lord makes one rich, and He adds no sorrow with it.
Pr 22:9 - The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor.
Is 32:17 - The fruit of that righteousness will be peace; its effect will be quietness and confidence forever.
Is 41:10 - So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
Jer 17:8 - They will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit.”
Php 4:7 - And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Php 4:19 - And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.
Ro 15:13 - May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
2 Cor 9:8 - And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
2 Cor 9:10 - Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness.
2 Thess 3:3 - But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one.
3 John 1:2 - Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
My mother and I both repented, lived holy lives, with clean hands and pure hearts. God was first love and first priority. We prayed for at least 3 hours each and every day, and studied the Bible for at least 1 hour every day. Prayer was the very first thing in the morning. Our faith was very strong. We strove to obey God's commandments, including keeping the Sabbath day holy. We attended Sabbath services. We served God. Preached the true gospel. We both practiced abstinence, self-sacrifice and self-discipline, so we didn't spend money on holidays, restaurants or other pleasures. We were truly faithful disciples of Christ, by striving to live according to His word. Out of the little that we had, we donated money to charities and helped homeless people. We were never ever involved in occultism. My mother was totally faithful to my father in marriage, although he was very abusive towards her. Although, she forgave him many times, the abuse didn't stop. On the contrary, the more she forgave, the worse the abuse became. It reached a point where she had no choice but to divorce him. From then on, my mother never remarried. She lived the life of a widow for twenty years. We lived a very modest and quiet life. We practiced celibacy and sexual abstinence. Our lives resembled those of nuns. My mother was very protective of me and she taught me to pray since I was two years of age. While parents usually read fairy tale stories to their children, I slept with the Bible under my pillow, which I took with me to the private school that my mother enrolled me in, and I learned about God. We put so much faith and trust in God and I feel like He has really let us down.
The verses in Psalm 103:1-5 state: "Praise the Lord, my soul; all my inmost being, praise his holy name. Praise the Lord, my soul, and forget not all his benefits—who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion, who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s. The Lord works righteousness and justice for all the oppressed."
My mother suffered from colorectal cancer which spread to her liver and kidneys, heart failure, pulmonary edema and anaemia, including numerous other medical issues. I was completely shocked, devastated and heartbroken when my mother passed away at an early age, and I read her long medical report, which went on and on. She was in terrible pain and had near fatal falls on a few occasions. Despite praying to God continuously, from early morning until late at night, with fasting and begging for my mother to be healed, my prayers returned unanswered. The more I prayed and fasted, the worse her health became. It deteriorated so much that she was bed-ridden for one year and couldn't see the light of day. None of these illnesses run on my mother's side of the family. We both took care of our health by drinking fruit and vegetable juices, exercising and more importantly, absolutely NO smoking, drugs or alcohol. While other people were celebrating Mother's Day with gifts like cakes, chocolates and flowers, as well as dining with their mothers at restaurants or taking them on luxury cruises, my mother was in the morgue awaiting cremation.
God's people are plagued by an entire series of extremely serious illnesses—including a number of leading people directly involved in the work. During the 1980's there was a huge number of ministers wives that were stricken. It has always been a fact that wives of so many ministers and church leaders have been stricken by cancer.
In 2016, Cornerstone Contact Centre pastor Don Cameron died at the age of 45 years, after a battle with cancer.
Jeffery Largent, pastor of Culver flock passed away in 2016, at the age of 59 years, after his second battle with cancer.
Church of the Highlands Greystone Campus Pastor Keith Lindsey passed away in 2016 after a lengthy battle with cancer.
Kara Tippetts, wife of PCA church pastor Jason Tippetts of Westside Church, in Colorado Springs, Colorado, is a devout Christian mother of four, who had stage-four breast cancer and passed away at the age of 38, in 2015, after a long battle.
In 2014, Steve Hill, the evangelist of the Brownsville Revival, passed away at his Alabama home Sunday after fighting a long battle with cancer. He was 60 years old.
LaKisha died in 2014, at the age of 40 after an 18-month battle with breast cancer. She was the wife of Pastor Breonus Mitchell of Greater Grace Temple Community Church.
A Wesleyan pastor, Daniel “Danny” Eiler, age 30, passed away in 2014, after battling leukemia. He served as senior pastor of The Springs Community Church in Ringgold, Georgia.
David Landrith, senior pastor of Long Hollow Baptist Church in Hendersonville, died at age 51. Landrith was diagnosed with an extremely rare and aggressive form of cancer known as colorectal melanoma in 2013.
In 2009, founder and pastor of Victory Christian Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Billy Joe Daugherty's battle with cancer took a turn for the worse as he fought an infection at Houston's M.D. Anderson Hospital. He passed away at the age of 57 years.
The list goes on and on ...
My mother's faith was very strong right to the very end when she passed away, and I wish to point out the fact that I even called for the elders of the church to anoint my mother with olive oil, as the following scripture states in: James 5:14-15 - Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.
The scripture obviously wasn't fulfilled in my mother's life who was a faithful Christian, and the lives of many other faithful Christians.
As stated previously, God's promises are not just found in the Old Testament, but reaffirmed in the New Testament, as we read in James 5:14-15 as well as many other scriptural references that I've already quoted previously.
At the beginning of the chapter in 1 Cor 12, we read that Paul is addressing brothers and sisters. "Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed."
Verse 7-10 mentions: "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."
One of the important ministries of the Holy Spirit to believers today, is His bestowal of spiritual gifts on Christians at the time of their conversion.
Ephesians 2:10 mentions: "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." The only way we can do good works is if our bodies are not incapacitated or debilitated by pain, sickness or disease.
If gifts of healing and miracles are operating in the lives of Christians in these churches, then there would be NO sicknesses, suicides, and crimes such as murder happening there.
Suicide is happening at an alarming rate in the Churches of God with so many pastors committing suicide.
Living Church of God - Joplin, Missouri pastor Karl Beyersdorfer killed himself on 5/27/2016.
Others who committed suicide in the Worldwide Church of God are mentioned in the below article:
hwarmstrong.com/suicide-statistics.htm (http://hwarmstrong.com/suicide-statistics.htm)
The following verses refer to believers in Christ Jesus:
Mark 16:17-18 - And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
The following link displays an article on miracle workers who couldn't heal themselves:
bible.ca/tongues-miracles-fake-pentecostal.htm (http://bible.ca/tongues-miracles-fake-pentecostal.htm)
The list goes on and on.
The verse in Exodus 20:12 states: “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. It is reaffirmed in the New Testament in: Ephesians 6:2-3 - “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise—“so that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.”
During my lifetime, I've seen mothers who honoured their parents and yet lived short lives, like my mother who honored both her parents and grandparents. On the other hand, mothers who dishonoured their parents and yet lived to ripe old ages of over 80 years of age. There are even criminals, such as serial killers, rapists and paedophiles who live long lives on the earth. While at the same time, a shocking number of innocent people are sentenced to death. One of the ways in which we honor our parents is by having a clean criminal record.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, "tells you that a surprising number of innocent people are sentenced to death," Samuel R. Gross, the lead author, said in an interview with Newsweek. "It tells you that a lot of them haven't been exonerated. Some of them no doubt have been executed." The headline on newsweek.com is "One in 25 sentenced to death in the U.S. is innocent, study claims."
Do all these convicted criminals deserve to live and my mother who was a godly, holy, righteous mother deserve to die, along with all these other devout Christians?
Charles Manson, the convicted American serial killer is still alive today at the age of 82 years. Charles Albright, known as the eyeball killer, is 83 years. The nurse Jane Toppan, a serial killer, lived to be 81 years of age. Edward Theodore Gein was an American murderer and body snatcher. He died at the age of 78 years. Ian Brady, the child killer is 78 years. Robert Hansen, the serial killer died at the age of 75 years. Dennis Rader is 71 years of age. Phillip Jablonski, another serial killer is 70 years of age, and the list goes on and on. Incarcerated criminals enjoy the fresh air and sunshine with fitness and recreational activities, including sports, gym, pool tables and so forth. These prisons are more like holiday resorts.
Charles Manson, the ringleader of the killer cult still remains unrepentant even at the ripe old age of 82 years, just like many other criminals. I'm puzzled as to why God allowed all these criminals to live long lives. Was He waiting for them to turn to Him and repent? But God has foreknowledge. We find instead, that they committed more and more crimes, while growing old without any sign of remorse?
Psalm 91:16 states: "With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation.” This verse is supposed to be referring to devout believers. Instead, we see that the criminals are the ones who are living long lives. Why would God want to satisfy scum of the earth with long lives?
The Bible also states that God has foreknowledge. Therefore, He knows in advance whether anyone will repent.
Isaiah 46:9-10: "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
If God made us for a reason and that is to begin a relationship with, serve and obey Him, then why doesn't He grant long lives to those devout Christians who do good deeds. It is God who decides when we are born and how long we live according to:
Psalm 139:16: "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
God is the one who planned the days of our lives in advance, choosing the exact time of our birth and death. This goes for criminals too, as well as many famous atheists who have lived to ripe old ages including: Diana Athill (99), Katharine Hepburn (96), Baba Amte (94), Uri Avnery (93), Julius Axelrod (92), Marlene Dietrich (91), Kai Nielsen (90), Henry Burstow (90), Jorge Amado (89), Eric Ambler (89), Tom Lehrer (88), James Randi (88), Paul Kurtz (87), Edward O. Wilson (87), Larry Adler (87), Mary Adams (86), Jemima Blackburn (86), Michael Martin (84), Philip Roth (83), Steven Weinberg (83), Victor Stenger (81), Robert Altman (81), Woody Allen (81), and many others.
The verse in Isaiah 30:18 states that the Lord is a God of justice. "Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you; therefore he will rise up to show you compassion. For the Lord is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for him!" Where is the justice? I'm absolutely appalled and disgusted by the injustice not only in the Christian community, but in the world today. I believe these injustices promote and encourage evil all the more.
Many devout believers have been martyred who were very faithful to God, like Stephen and all of the twelve apostles who died as martyrs during the first century, with the exception of John, the writer of the Gospel with his name and the Book of Revelation who died a natural death, at 94 years of age, close to the year 100 A.D.
A report issued by a Christian organization fighting religious persecution states that a Christian is killed for his or her faith every five minutes across the world. It has escalated dramatically over the centuries, with more Christian martyrs in the 20th and 21st centuries than in the preceding 19 centuries — going back to Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry. The situation is only getting worse.
Over 75% of Christians persecuted in North Korea who are subjected to torture, imprisonment and all sorts of punishment do not survive to tell their stories.
Currently, more than 200 million Christians around the world are threatened because of their faith. Is God pleased with martyrdom? Does it give Him satisfaction to see many Christians martyred for their faith. Does God consider it a sacrifice that brings glory and honour to Him, thereby pleasing and acceptable?
Thank you.
God bless you,
Rachel Henderson
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That is a sad story. I'm fairly sure what I think about it, but will wait to see what others say. In the meantime, I'll just write the following.
Having no reading vision, I use a screen reader and have cursored down line by line , listening to your in between text and quickly passing by all the lines which were obviously Bible quotes.
I'm an atheist and have had quite a few health hiccups during my 80 years, but up-to-date and improving medical care, plus my own determination to strengthen my muscles to avoid a hip op, mean that I can still do my favourite hobby of tap dancing.
The Bible was written by human beings, who have, since pre-history, imagined gods. Since that time and right up to date there is zero objective evidence for any god. Science is showing us more and more how the universe at large right down to the smallest atoms,works, really, actually, demonstrably works.
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There is no glory in dying for Christ. There is joy and victory in living for Him, as many believers do, in horrendous circumstances, a Light in dark places, salt in an unsavoury world. God does not delight in suffering or illness - there are many disabled Christians in the world (like myself) who live a fulfilled life and try to glorify God by doing it. We need not have a martyrdom complex - a 'why me' whinge....after all, "Why NOT me" could be equally aposite. As Scripture says, the sun shrines on the righteous and the unrighteous alike. We have no special pleading to be excused from life; nor is their any purpose in the martyr culture. Some, it is true, lose their lives either for expressing their faith, or because they refuse to leave it - but that's because of their walk with God, not because of any ill judged move to aim to die for Him. Their reward, like that of the countless millions who have surrendered to Christ, was sealed on a Cross on Calvary.
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I didn't find any joy in being a Christian when I was one.
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My first impression was of great sadness because of all the disappointment and obvious lack of Godly response in your life Rachael. I have spoken with a number of anxious people in my time and not one of them has such a cleverly written and articulate letter to support their case filled with punches against the faith and which certainly runs against the grain of my experiences. So, the question arises...is this a genuine letter??
My advice to anyone reading it is...take it on face value...but let's see what else Rachael contributes because wolves in sheep clothing is one of the signs we should look out for...and those that believe implicitly in Jesus Christ are not fools.
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I have asked this question many times and never got a answer, which made any sense. If Jesus is still around why couldn't he give me some sense of his presence when as a child I sincerely prayed for him to do so. All the time I was a Christian I never once had any sense god or Jesus existed. So when I was old enough to question the faith in detail it isn't surprising I lost it, as there is no evidence to substantiate it.
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I didn't find any joy in being a Christian when I was one.
I. on the other hand, find joy in every momment I spend with Christ.
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I have asked this question many times and never got a answer, which made any sense. If Jesus is still around why couldn't he give me some sense of his presence when as a child I sincerely prayed for him to do so. All the time I was a Christian I never once had any sense god or Jesus existed. So when I was old enough to question the faith in detail it isn't surprising I lost it, as there is no evidence to substantiate it.
The touch of Jesus is often so light that it can be easily missed...but, personally, giving us a science that reaches across sudden, painful and distressing death with the promise of resurrection simply by following wholesome laws which all civil laws also carry but which are largely ignored...for the expressed purpose of renewing our aged and damaged flesh to an everlasting, eternal status, because the teaching is so accurate to the true nature of all existence, and much more besides...does it for me.
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Rachel Henderson
Put simply , you have been conned
and wasted so much time praying to something that either isn't there or doesn't care . The results are the same ,you decide .
I know which I choose .
best wishes
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I have asked this question many times and never got a answer, which made any sense. If Jesus is still around why couldn't he give me some sense of his presence when as a child I sincerely prayed for him to do so. All the time I was a Christian I never once had any sense god or Jesus existed. So when I was old enough to question the faith in detail it isn't surprising I lost it, as there is no evidence to substantiate it.
Maybe He did, floo - but you weere not listening. I mean no disrespect by that statement - 'cos if there's anyone more guilty of not listening when God calls, it's me! Believe me - when I knelt in prayer as a teenager in 1977, I felt more of a twit than you can possibly imagine - especially since I was athiest. What changed? Maybe I listened.
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Maybe He did, floo - but you weere not listening. I mean no disrespect by that statement - 'cos if there's anyone more guilty of not listening when God calls, it's me! Believe me - when I knelt in prayer as a teenager in 1977, I felt more of a twit than you can possibly imagine - especially since I was athiest. What changed? Maybe I listened.
Weren't listening? Oh come on that is not a sensible answer! ::)
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Hey, if you want an expert on 'not listening' - then I'll put my hand up there. Guilty as charged! When I look back, there were plenty of times when the message was made known to me - and equally plenty of times when I told them where they could shove it! However, just for once, in silence, I listened. And I heard what I needed to hear - felt what I needed to feel. And, very, very reluctantly, I opened all that I was, am and wil be to Him. I'm still good at not listening. Luckily He's even better at forgiving!
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Hey, if you want an expert on 'not listening' - then I'll put my hand up there. Guilty as charged! When I look back, there were plenty of times when the message was made known to me - and equally plenty of times when I told them where they could shove it! However, just for once, in silence, I listened. And I heard what I needed to hear - felt what I needed to feel. And, very, very reluctantly, I opened all that I was, am and wil be to Him. I'm still good at not listening. Luckily He's even better at forgiving!
by what method is the communication made , would I hear it if i were stood next to you ?
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Hey, if you want an expert on 'not listening' - then I'll put my hand up there. Guilty as charged! When I look back, there were plenty of times when the message was made known to me - and equally plenty of times when I told them where they could shove it! However, just for once, in silence, I listened. And I heard what I needed to hear - felt what I needed to feel. And, very, very reluctantly, I opened all that I was, am and wil be to Him. I'm still good at not listening. Luckily He's even better at forgiving!
If god/Jesus are around why aren't they visible to everyone so no one can deny their presence, instead of playing silly games with humans?
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by what method is the communication made , would I hear it if i were stood next to you ?
You see Walter...if you were practiced in the art of reading scripture you would know that many of the points of guidance within everyday context is already stated and then it doesn't take more than a gentle reminder to a Biblical text for Jesus to speak to us. This proves beneficial in many different ways...especially as the ability to be alert, agile and sensible in our reasoning often gets lost as we age and we become cannon fodder for those who want to manipulate us into danger, ahead of themselves. This is why the battle cry of the atheist is to smash the good name of our saviour.
It wont work because we have a resistance to that type of tactic just as we will have a restance to the great tribulations and just as we will have a resistance to the fiery lake of sulphur...and that should be our main concern now.
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You see Walter...if you were practiced in the art of reading scripture you would know that many of the points of guidance within everyday context is already stated and then it doesn't take more than a gentle reminder to a Biblical text for Jesus to speak to us. This proves beneficial in many different ways...especially as the ability to be alert, agile and sensible in our reasoning often gets lost as we age and we become cannon fodder for those who want to manipulate us into danger, ahead of themselves. This is why the battle cry of the atheist is to smash the good name of our saviour.
It wont work because we have a resistance to that type of tactic just as we will have a restance to the great tribulations and just as we will have a resistance to the fiery lake of sulphur...and that should be our main concern now.
as an atheist, how am I meant to smash the good name of your savior ,as you put it .
Do you understand the concept of what atheism is ?
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by what method is the communication made , would I hear it if i were stood next to you ?
Umpteen ways - maybe something I said or did would reach you....maybe something you read would hit you, or something you heard incasual conversation. With me, someone told me to read a book of the Bible inconnection with something he wanted me to do. To be honest, at that time, the Bible bored the pants of me, but I went for it. A verse stuck in my mind: not a particularly 'evamgelical' text, or an 'in your face' salvation text, but a rather inoccuous text, really. It kind of bored into my head like an earworm, till I asked God (feeling like a numpty) about it. That's when I felt, rather than heard, Him - and that's when I surrendered, sans pomp, ceremony and alter calls. in my bedroom.
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Umpteen ways - maybe something I said or did would reach you....maybe something you read would hit you, or something you heard incasual conversation. With me, someone told me to read a book of the Bible inconnection with something he wanted me to do. To be honest, at that time, the Bible bored the pants of me, but I went for it. A verse stuck in my mind: not a particularly 'evamgelical' text, or an 'in your face' salvation text, but a rather inoccuous text, really. It kind of bored into my head like an earworm, till I asked God (feeling like a numpty) about it. That's when I felt, rather than heard, Him - and that's when I surrendered, sans pomp, ceremony and alter calls. in my bedroom.
Oh , now I get it , illicit substances and a copy of Readers Wives . Does it every time , fortunately most of us grow out of it though.
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Oh , now I get it , illicit substances and a copy of Readers Wives . Does it every time , fortunately most of us grow out of it though.
I refer you to your own answer #15 Walter.
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I refer you to your own answer #15 Walter.
eh? whatchoo ona bart.?
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eh? whatchoo ona bart.?
Wa ar is on abowt is that you are taking a slug at someone who is opening their heart a little bit...and...true to form...you are ridiculing and besmirching an honest attempt to convey a difficult concept to us.
That's ever-so easy you know to listen to a heartfelt message and give a one, short, sharp, snap answer, that takes no thought just the sting its intended to carry. It has its hall-mark in...errr....well....atheism.
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I. on the other hand, find joy in every momment I spend with Christ.
So did I when I was a Christian. Of course, since Christ died 2,000 years ago, none of us have actually spent any time with him so we can say whatever we like about every moment we have spent with him.
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Wa ar is on abowt is that you are taking a slug at someone who is opening their heart a little bit...and...true to form...you are ridiculing and besmirching an honest attempt to convey a difficult concept to us.
That's ever-so easy you know to listen to a heartfelt message and give a one, short, sharp, snap answer, that takes no thought just the sting its intended to carry. It has its hall-mark in...errr....well....atheism.
Your 'heartfelt' messages often contain an unpleasant sting when you are threatening people, who don't see it your way, with retribution from on high! You have no evidence to support your claim, as I have said many times the Bible is no kind of evidence.
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Wa ar is on abowt is that you are taking a slug at someone who is opening their heart a little bit...and...true to form...you are ridiculing and besmirching an honest attempt to convey a difficult concept to us.
That's ever-so easy you know to listen to a heartfelt message and give a one, short, sharp, snap answer, that takes no thought just the sting its intended to carry. It has its hall-mark in...errr....well....atheism.
OK Nick ill accept it is an honest attempt but that's as far as it goes. The material you are trying to impart though is ridiculous and insulting to the intelligence of right thinking people. As long as you confine it to this tiny community who use this board then there's no real harm done.
I would despair if you had a wider audience.
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Umpteen ways - maybe something I said or did would reach you....maybe something you read would hit you, or something you heard incasual conversation. With me, someone told me to read a book of the Bible inconnection with something he wanted me to do. To be honest, at that time, the Bible bored the pants of me, but I went for it. A verse stuck in my mind: not a particularly 'evamgelical' text, or an 'in your face' salvation text, but a rather inoccuous text, really. It kind of bored into my head like an earworm, till I asked God (feeling like a numpty) about it. That's when I felt, rather than heard, Him - and that's when I surrendered, sans pomp, ceremony and alter calls. in my bedroom.
I understand that, Anchor, because I had a similar experience. It was quite profound actually.
Being a Christian has never made me think life is going to be perfect. We will be ill, stressed, in difficulties, same as everyone else. Life isn't easy but, to be fair, there are long periods of time which are pretty good.
I've never understood why people think God is useless because of illnesses, accidents, disasters, etc. We live in an imperfect world and people are far from perfect.
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If god created human nature it screwed up, so it is useless if that were the case.
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I wonder if the OP writer really thought that we would spend today looking up, reading and inwardly digesting all those Bible quotes? As far as I can see the OP has spent her life chasing an always-elusive, never-reachable shadow. Such a waste of time.Maybe Sassy, NM and a few others will read and enjoy. Hmmm.
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I wonder if the OP writer really thought that we would spend today looking up, reading and inwardly digesting all those Bible quotes? As far as I can see the OP has spent her life chasing an always-elusive, never-reachable shadow. Such a waste of time.Maybe Sassy, NM and a few others will read and enjoy. Hmmm.
I like that SD , what a shame.
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I like that SD , what a shame.
Thank you - but I hope you don't mean that it's a shame you like my post!!
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Thank you - but I hope you don't mean that it's a shame you like my post!!
SD please accept my sincere apology My use of grammar is under review at the moment, xx
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Oh , now I get it , illicit substances and a copy of Readers Wives . Does it every time , fortunately most of us grow out of it though.
What 'illicit substances'?
I've never taken any such thing (though I did work in a voluntary capacity in a drug rehab 'safe house' in the early '80's, and know how damaging such substances can be.
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I understand that, Anchor, because I had a similar experience. It was quite profound actually.
Being a Christian has never made me think life is going to be perfect. We will be ill, stressed, in difficulties, same as everyone else. Life isn't easy but, to be fair, there are long periods of time which are pretty good.
I've never understood why people think God is useless because of illnesses, accidents, disasters, etc. We live in an imperfect world and people are far from perfect.
Yes.
God did not promise those who follow Him a rose garden (quite the reverse if you read the Scripture).
If He did, though, every rose has its' thorns.
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A quick Google shows that this OP is not a one off. I hope Rachel finds the answers they are looking for. And God's peace.
The Kingdom is not fully come yet. This is an imperfect world, I agree with Brownie. The Christian life is not promised to be easy. I will leave you with the Lord's words "in this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
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Rachel, I have a favourite Psalm. When I am unsettled, mind racing, I find it very comforting.
Ps 131 v1-2 (NIV) (The NJB and other Bibles used by Catholics, such as Knox, number the psalms differently.)
1 My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
2 But I have calmed and quieted myself,
I am like a weaned child with its mother;
like a weaned child I am content.
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What were the answers to your question from the other sites?
I have seen you have posted this on a number of sites some give a warning about the sites.
What I cannot understand is why you yourself ask questions as if you getting an answer depends on how you live your life and not on the basis of Gods word.
Maybe if you read what you?? have written you can reach your own answers!
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What were the answers to your question from the other sites?
I have seen you have posted this on a number of sites some give a warning about the sites.
What I cannot understand is why you yourself ask questions as if you getting an answer depends on how you live your life and not on the basis of Gods word.
Maybe if you read what you?? have written you can reach your own answers!
You see Sassy...this is the thing I can't get my head round with the opening post which is that everyone I have come across who tries to follow Jesus in the way he taught us is buoyed up by it. It is an emotional thing. Jesus says, to me at least, that regardless of what pain or injury you are suffering from, the worst pain is the emotional pain and if we get that right much of the other pain becomes bearable...even rectifiable. Now...I've studied this further and many of my responses reflect this...but...it is Jesus that is claimed to be failing here according to Rachel and I'm not sure that that is truly the case.
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I wonder what Rachel Henderson thinks of the replies so far and whether she will be back to respond?
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I hope so, Susan.
Nicholas, it does seem as though Rachel lays the blame for all the pain in life at the feet of the Lord. I don't know what people expect really, we already discussed that this is not a perfect life for any of us. It is unusual, however, for a Christian person to blame God for things going wrong.
If we had absolutely no problems in life, we wouldn't be ourselves. Life can be difficult but it is interesting.
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I hope so, Susan.
Nicholas, it does seem as though Rachel lays the blame for all the pain in life at the feet of the Lord. I don't know what people expect really, we already discussed that this is not a perfect life for any of us. It is unusual, however, for a Christian person to blame God for things going wrong.
If we had absolutely no problems in life, we wouldn't be ourselves. Life can be difficult but it is interesting.
Hi Brownie. I.m not convinced that the author of this letter is giving us a genuine case study. There is something too refined about it and it brings in too many arguments from far and wide...and its presentation is first class. Looking for alternative motives it might be that a team of intellectual atheists might put something like this together to undermine what a follower in Jesus Christ might sometimes wonder about but as you know faith is usually greater than the problem.
We are living in difficult times so every aspect of our faith is likely to be tested...and I still can't see that when we each have an open invitation to bathe in the spiritual waters that quenches all inner thirsts how anyone can be missed, as indicated here.
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You could be right, Nicholas. Rachel has posted the same elsewhere, notably a Sam Harris site and Topix. A lot of personal stuff. I just reread the OP and this struck me:
(About her mother) ...I even called for the elders of the church to anoint my mother with olive oil, as the following scripture states in: James 5:14-15 - Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.
The scripture obviously wasn't fulfilled in my mother's life who was a faithful Christian, and the lives of many other faithful Christians.
Surely no Christian person thinks we aren't ever going to be ill and die sooner or later?
Anointing of the sick can indeed make a sick person well, I have seen that happen, but being "well" in themselves doesn't automatically mean their physical ailment has disappeared. The anointing is comforting and calming. It's also given to people who are not terminally ill but who have a short or long term debilitating condition.
I'm not worried about Rachel posting this in different places to provoke Christians to re-examine (if that is indeed her purpose, and we don't know for certain); the issues she has raised are not new ones, we read them all the time on forums like this one. We've had a good think which can't be bad.
I hope Rachel comes back to read the various, and varied, responses.
PS: Just seen NS's post. I have no idea who Rachel is, NS, so wouldn't speculate about her identity. I presume she is 'Rachel', who wants to share her experiences and ask questions.
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No good blaming a god, which probably does not exist, or the long dead Jesus for any nastiness and abuse. The blame rests on the shoulders of extreme Christians who use their very narrow dogma to try to frighten people in believing as they do.
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Probably the prime example of faith whilst enduring suffering in New Testament times is Paul. There has been speculation as to the nature of his 'thorn in the flesh' - whether physical or spiritual. Either way, despite prayer, he was not healed, but given grace to endure and use his ailment for the Gospel. There are also several indicators that Paul's sight was failing even befor his appearance before the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem - and that this continued to the end of his life. Again, he remained faithful and was used in so many ways to advance the Kingdom. Sometimes, whether we like it or not, the answer to our prayer is either 'no' or 'not yet' - but always "I will be with you; always...."
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Paul may not have been cured of whatever ailed him but he was certainly spiritually healed, evidenced by the way he was able to cope and live his life to the full. I do not think healing necessarily means curing.
As for all the 'ails' of the world, some come about naturally and others are caused by people. That's life. Running alongside are plenty of good and enjoyable things, it's easy to forget that when we are bogged down with bad news, illness or worries.
Every one of us must be able to remember times that were pretty good, even poor Rachel. From what she said at the beginning of this thread, she and her mother seem to have espoused quite a strict, narrow type of faith; is it any wonder that she says, "We did what God wanted, why did everything go wrong?".
Faith isn't a magic formula to stop earthquakes and disease.
Faith definitely doesn't exclude joy in 'ordinary' things.
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Yep. That smacks of the detestable so-called 'Prosperity Gospel' stuff - which most Chrstians wouldn't touch with a ten foot barge pole. If we are supposed to live in the world - and Jesus made it very clear that we are - then we may as well share inthe prob;lems the world has in store.
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We agree on that, Anchor.
However, from what I've seen of those who are into the 'Prosperity Gospel', they are quite upbeat people (hee hee, Heaven preserve me from those who are constantly upbeat, they wear me out in five minutes). I don't think Rachel and her mother went to that sort of church.
Rachel said: "My mother and I both repented, lived holy lives, with clean hands and pure hearts. God was first love and first priority. We prayed for at least 3 hours each and every day, and studied the Bible for at least 1 hour every day. Prayer was the very first thing in the morning. Our faith was very strong. We strove to obey God's commandments, including keeping the Sabbath day holy. We attended Sabbath services. We served God. Preached the true gospel. We both practiced abstinence, self-sacrifice and self-discipline......"
which doesn't sound very cheerful to me. I visualise it as dark and narrow, rather puritan in 'flavour', with many constraints.
'Sacrifice' is an over used word for some Christians (& others). Let's face it, we all make sacrifices quite naturally at different times without even thinking about it, but if we make a big deal out of the virtue of sacrifice, we're expecting reward and they aren't true sacrifices. I hate the word in many ways.
Who knows? Let's hope Rachel returns to share a bit more.
(It really is interesting to encounter so many different people of diverse opinion on forums.)
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Greetings my fellow Christian brothers and sisters,
I love to speak the truth and I have very serious questions that I think many believers would like to know the answer to. Can you tell me please why does God's word promise so much and yet fulfils so very little to nothing in the lives of many devout Christians, in terms of, for example: long life, health, peace, joy and happiness, etc? Instead, I've seen many atheists who live very healthy, prosperous and happy lives and they obviously don't believe in keeping God's commandments. Doesn't the Bible lose credibility in this way? Isn't this part of the reason why many people don't take God, His commandments or the Bible seriously?
In other words, why do not all devout Christians live long lives and have optimum health as countless scriptures promise, such as: Psalms 84; 90, 91; 103; Pr 10:27, etc?
Hi Rachel, with the exception the Proverbs reference, there doesn't appear to be any promise of long lives and optimim health in the references from Psalms that you give above. Interestingly, there is no such promise in the New Testament - where Jesaus reminds us that thr rain falls and the sun shines on everyone, believer or not. The fact that you seem to feel that our lives here on earth have to be blessed in the way you suggest would suggest that you have missed the point of Jesus' teaching - that our rewards are of a very different nature.
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The Bible was written by human beings, who have, since pre-history, imagined gods.
Susan, you and others have made this claim on numerous occasions over the years, both here and elsewhere. No-one has ever produced any evidence to support the assertion, though.
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I. on the other hand, find joy in every momment I spend with Christ.
Likewise
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Rachel Henderson
Put simply , you have been conned
and wasted so much time praying to something that either isn't there or doesn't care . The results are the same ,you decide .
I know which I choose .
best wishes
A pity that neither you, nor anyone else has ever managed to produce any evidence to support the various assertions that you make in this post, Walter.
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Weren't listening? Oh come on that is not a sensible answer! ::)
It is actually a very sensible answer, Floo. Most of us would accept that we haven't heard what people have said to us because we have been waiting for a specific response - which might not have been the one they've given: at other times, we listen very carefully to a particular communication channel, so that when it comes via a different channel, we don't hear.
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by what method is the communication made , would I hear it if i were stood next to you ?
It can be via one's conscience, a comment made by a stranger or a friend, something that you see in your everyday life - a poster, a letter or article in a newspaper, something ihn the natural world; God speaks in a whole host of ways, not always using sound.
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If god/Jesus are around why aren't they visible to everyone so no one can deny their presence, instead of playing silly games with humans?
Floo, how often have you been travelling from A to B and seen absolutely everything that you could have seen over that distance - on that particular day or even time of day?
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It can be via one's conscience, a comment made by a stranger or a friend, something that you see in your everyday life - a poster, a letter or article in a newspaper, something ihn the natural world; God speaks in a whole host of ways, not always using sound.
So God communicates with you by violating other people's free will.
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So God communicates with you by violating other people's free will.
In the main Almighty God communicated most of his guidence and direction via Jesus Christ. If we are following Jesus accurately we automatically know how to respond to a given situation because there is usually a direct Biblical example and sometimes you see similar situations developing that have a direct comparison within the Bible.
What I find particularly useful is that by trying to stay Biblically cool, calm, and collected, and not respond to the artificial stimulation that advertising, media, propaganda and other undesirable influences throw at us constantly, I usually have sufficient adrenalin in my system to cover all the distress when others are arguing and shouting even going hysterical and that can save yours and others lives.
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Posted by: Hope on: December 17, 2016, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Anchorman on December 16, 2016, 11:32:02 AM
I. on the other hand, find joy in every momment I spend with Christ.
Likewise.
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(Speaking to fellow Christians here, we know others will think we are bonkers but it isn't unreasonable, on the Christian Topic forum, to communicate with those who have similar beliefs. Not proselytising at all!):
I wouldn't say I feel exactly the same - no two people experience exactly the same - but I do find my relationship with God (the Father) to be very good and comforting, most of the time. Sorry if that sounds vague ;D, if I explained further the thread would go well off topic! My love for God the Father, and his for me, is something I cherish. Love Jesus too of course but it's different entirely.
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Susan, you and others have made this claim on numerous occasions over the years, both here and elsewhere. No-one has ever produced any evidence to support the assertion, though.
I too have said many times, there is no evidence to support the existence of any god, you haven't come up with any. Until there is definitive proof, the human imagination has to be a strong contender for their creation.
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The easy answer is just a Susan Doris has said so eloquently before me, I would have said in answer to your opening comment:
"Can you tell me please why does God's word promise so much and yet fulfils so very little to nothing in the lives of many devout Christians".
Easy to answer Rachel, the idea of anything like a god is rather obviously a man made concept and since no one has ever come up with any viable evidence to support the idea it's pretty safe to dismiss the god idea to the dustbin of history along with a load of other nonsense like, Flat Earth, Astrology, Tarot, Unicorns and loads more of it.
ippy
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A pity that neither you, nor anyone else has ever managed to produce any evidence to support the various assertions that you make in this post, Walter.
hahahahahahah. good one ,Hope!
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Considering the number of assertions Hope makes about god etc, it is a bit rich him accusing others of doing the same.
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A pity that neither you, nor anyone else has ever managed to produce any evidence to support the various assertions that you make in this post, Walter.
Maybe they have Hope, maybe they did produced an answer but you were waiting on a specific response?
It does happen, doesn't it?
Most of us would accept that we haven't heard what people have said to us because we have been waiting for a specific response - which might not have been the one they've given: at other times, we listen very carefully to a particular communication channel, so that when it comes via a different channel, we don't hear.
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My first impression was of great sadness because of all the disappointment and obvious lack of Godly response in your life Rachael. I have spoken with a number of anxious people in my time and not one of them has such a cleverly written and articulate letter to support their case filled with punches against the faith and which certainly runs against the grain of my experiences. So, the question arises...is this a genuine letter??
My advice to anyone reading it is...take it on face value...but let's see what else Rachael contributes because wolves in sheep clothing is one of the signs we should look out for...and those that believe implicitly in Jesus Christ are not fools.
Oh dear! Did she actually say something that contradicts your idea that 'following Jesus' accurate teaching' leads to a life of health, wealth and happiness? The Book of Job suggests that 'righteous' people may have a very hard time of it. That book goes on to suggest that Job was 'rewarded' in the end, but one senses that the author(s) felt they had to give the book a happy ending, to encourage faith.
But the Book of Job is not about telling people how serving God leads to a happy life - it's an enquiry into why horrible things happen to good people. The answer given is not very satisfactory in my opinion, but it's a brave attempt to face the horrors that life flings in our faces. Certainly one of the best writings in the Bible.
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As I thought might happen, here we are at #61 and no Rachel Henderson!!
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jeremyp:
It can be via one's conscience, a comment made by a stranger or a friend, something that you see in your everyday life - a poster, a letter or article in a newspaper, something ihn the natural world; God speaks in a whole host of ways, not always using sound.
So God communicates with you by violating other people's free will.
jeremy, I honestly don't follow how you reached that conclusion from what Hope said, with which I concur.
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Susan, well we didn't really expect Rachel to come back though I hoped she would. Perhaps she's reading all our posts and thinking about them.
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jeremyp:
jeremy, I honestly don't follow how you reached that conclusion from what Hope said, with which I concur.
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Susan, well we didn't really expect Rachel to come back though I hoped she would. Perhaps she's reading all our posts and thinking about them.
Because if god causes someone to say something it's not their choice to say it, it's a manipulation. And God is Derrin Brown
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;D Well I never knew that, NS, the Israelites did have various names for God but Derren Brown doesn't sound all that Jewish.
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Seems no one is coming back...Sowing seeds of discourse and discontent and then leaving without any real sincere want of answers. :(
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Because if god causes someone to say something it's not their choice to say it, it's a manipulation. And God is Derrin Brown
Hi Nearly Sane,
Thanks for the above post.
But if anybody 'encourages' another to speak or warn about what they already know or believe, is that interfering with somebody's free-will? Perhaps that is the way God works?
God bless
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Why are they not healed if Gods answer to prayer is that he wants them healed?
Why do Gods people die from a lack of understanding?
Just throwing into the mix that God wants everyone healed and Christ taught us that.
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Just throwing into the mix that God wants everyone healed and Christ taught us that.
P45 time for God, then.
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P45 time for God, then.
I think that that will occur long after many other ideas have been given their P45s and pensioned off.
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So God communicates with you by violating other people's free will.
Perhaps you could unpack that rather 'non sequituur' comment, jeremy?
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Why are they not healed if Gods answer to prayer is that he wants them healed?
Why do Gods people die from a lack of understanding?
Just throwing into the mix that God wants everyone healed and Christ taught us that.
Really?
Paul wasn't.
Mot only did he have his 'thorn in the flesh', but he was losing his sight with advancing years - probably cataract or macular degeneration.
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P45 time for God, then.
It is easy to see how lack of knowledge makes people blame everyone but themselves.
Seems as the managing director/CEO God would not have a P45 he is the one who hands them out.
So the difference is the way we think the lack of knowledge on your part.
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Thus spake Sass! ;D ;D ;D
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Really?
Paul wasn't.
Mot only did he have his 'thorn in the flesh', but he was losing his sight with advancing years - probably cataract or macular degeneration.
Paul wasn't what? Do you even know what Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was? Maybe I missed his sight being lost with advancing years where in the NT is that? He goes blind when Christ calls him and then we know the scales fall away when he has began to see spiritually that which he could not see before.
If a kingdom divides it falls. If you do not know the truth why prevent others from knowing it by attacking it?
The bible shows that God healed all who came to Jesus and that Jesus said those who believe in him will do even greater things than he has done. The bible tells us the things he did in those three years would be too much to fit into all the books of the world at that time.
You need to open your eyes to God and his truth. Even Naaman leader of the Syrian Army came to Gods Prophet and God healed him. Understanding and obedience to the truth given to us by God.
The bible is first and foremost the WORD of God. It teaches us about Gods promises and his plans for mankind.
The OT is the ONLY WORD of God which Christ, the Prophets and Apostles refer to.
We need to be in the WORD to know the truth.
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Oh, dear. Sass - I specifically said 'leaving aside the thorn in the flesh' - whether that was spiritual or physical matters not; though given the hardships he endured, I'd plump for arthritis, quite common in relatively young people of that era, as evimnced by archaeology. Yet Scripture - both Acts and several letters in the NT - hint that his sight was very poor - even after Damascus. We've had umpteen debates about this in the DCF and Torch, and the consensus is that the condition was n ot specifically named simply because of the stigma attached to it in first century Judea/Palestine. Today it's no big deal - though traumatic in the elderly; then it meant a loss of a pair of hands which could feed a family. That Paul continued in his faith is a beacon of light to those of us similarly affected - that's why the movement which deals with Christians with sight loss is called Torch.