Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Rhiannon on January 23, 2017, 05:46:10 PM
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Is it acceptible to pray for those who haven't asked for it?
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This, I think, is one of those things that hangs on which side of the theism-atheism divide you are.
Theists presumably think that prayer 'works' in some manner or other, though what constitutes 'working' - perhaps conveniently - remains a vague and nebulous thing consistent with absolutely all, any and every state of affairs, such that it is unfalsifiable and therefore absolutely and utterly useless as a working hypothesis. What I actually think, but do not say, when I read the prayer thread here would undoubtedly earn me an instantaneous and lifetime ban.
Atheists hold that the only benefit of prayer, if any, is a psychological one akin to the placebo effect in the mind of the individual prayee. One might, if uncharitable, call it a sort of spiritual masturbation - a solitary activity that gives the individual personal pleasure for a few minutes, but no more than that.
When Christopher Hitchens was dying of cancer he graciously took on board the first viewpoint while being resolutely convinced of the latter. That, in the name of good manners, is a tolerable compromise, surely. Where this crumbles is the sort of faux-concerned but actually passive-aggressiveness that you see sometimes.
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Not so long ago when I was having a very tough time I know that a pagan friend enlisted the help of all their Christian neighbours to pray for me. I was and am deeply touched; whether it 'worked' or not isn't really relevant - what counted was that I knew that people I'd never met were on my side and I happily admit that I got a nice warm glow from it.
And I know that Christians here appreciate the thoughts of non-theists on the prayer topic. It's a credit to this forum I think.
But if prayer did work, then are those who pray for someone *unasked* interfering in someone else's wellbeing? In witchcraft few would carry out a healing spell without being asked to, on the basis that it isn't their place to judge what is in someone else-s best interests - a period of illness may be necessary as a catalyst for making life changes, for example.
And isn't praying for non-believers to convert just rude?
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Well I wouldn't pray for anyone's conversion but imagine those who do, do it without the person knowing about it.
Yes, it is nice to know people care but praying for someone else should be done 'quietly' unless they say they want it.
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Not so long ago when I was having a very tough time I know that a pagan friend enlisted the help of all their Christian neighbours to pray for me. I was and am deeply touched; whether it 'worked' or not isn't really relevant - what counted was that I knew that people I'd never met were on my side and I happily admit that I got a nice warm glow from it.
And I know that Christians here appreciate the thoughts of non-theists on the prayer topic. It's a credit to this forum I think.
It is; but thoughts, even good ones, qua thoughts, do damn all above and beyond the "nice warm glow" factor if not translated into action. In most cases most people, faced with these sorts of situations, can't actually and practically do anything directly useful, so the 'thoughts and prayers' (or at least thoughts) thing comes out. I think almost all prayer is of this kind. There's nothing I can usefully do in any practical sense - companionship; cooking a hot and tasty meal; paperwork, etc. - so I'll consider benevolent thoughts from several hundred/thousand miles away an acceptable substitute.
It's at least possible that the knowledge that others are thinking benevolent thoughts of you may help insofar as they provide the NWG factor. But we still seem to be in the realm of the placebo here, as I see it.
isn't praying for non-believers to convert just rude?
Well yes. Of course it is.
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Well I wouldn't pray for anyone's conversion but imagine those who do, do it without the person knowing about it.
Yes, it is nice to know people care but praying for someone else should be done 'quietly' unless they say they want it.
I have no problem at all with being asked 'would you like me to pray for you?' None whatsoever.
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If people want to pray for others to get well it is probably meant kindly. However, when they pray for people to see it their way, that is when it really bugs me!
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After he almost died of a dissected aorta, Daniel Dennett's response - "Thank you. Did you also sacrifice a goat?" - was a bit more barbed than Hitchens's reply, but along the same lines, I think.
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Personally it wouldn't bother me if someone who knew me prayed for me on a personal basis: I can appreciate the good intentions involved and that whoever is doing the praying may gain some kind of placebo benefit that helps them manage their concern for me even though I think their appeals to the divine are utterly pointless.
However, I think it presumptive, and even offensive, when offered up in the public arena as being some kind of substantive response to some tragedy or other. Fortunately in the UK our politicians generally avoid 'God' within the political process so when I see US politicians reference God/prayers it really grates.
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Fortunately in the UK our politicians generally avoid 'God' within the political process so when I see US politicians reference God/prayers it really grates.
UK politicians typically avoid the G-word; but in the wake of some tragedy they still deploy the "thoughts and prayers" mantra.
It's not hugely offensive - it's more an automatic, rather mindless, unthinking thing and, as has been said before, is indicative of good wishes in the face of being unable to do anything practical than anything else.
That said: http://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aB18e4N_700b_v2.jpg
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After he almost died of a dissected aorta, Daniel Dennett's response - "Thank you. Did you also sacrifice a goat?" - was a bit more barbed than Hitchens's reply, but along the same lines, I think.
Is that true or is it another bit of atheist wankfodder.......or both?
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Is that true or is it another bit of atheist wankfodder.......or both?
It's true.
Source: https://www.edge.org/conversation/daniel_c_dennett-thank-goodness
These messages from my family and from friends around the world have been literally heart-warming in my case, and I am grateful for the boost in morale (to truly manic heights, I fear!) that it has produced in me. But I am not joking when I say that I have had to forgive my friends who said that they were praying for me. I have resisted the temptation to respond "Thanks, I appreciate it, but did you also sacrifice a goat?" I feel about this the same way I would feel if one of them said "I just paid a voodoo doctor to cast a spell for your health." What a gullible waste of money that could have been spent on more important projects! Don't expect me to be grateful, or even indifferent. I do appreciate the affection and generosity of spirit that motivated you, but wish you had found a more reasonable way of expressing it.
(Paragraph #9).
Why, Vlad?
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I have no problem at all with being asked 'would you like me to pray for you?' None whatsoever.
That's good.
Shaker, I think, mentioned placebo effect. I've no objection to that at all.
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If anyone want's to pray for me, fine, just keep it to yourself.
It's more tiresome when we get the, god bless or I'll pray for you, than reasuring, mind you, if you're into talking to yourself.
ippy
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Harsh, but by no means inaccurate: http://tinyurl.com/hoccnhe
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That's good.
Shaker, I think, mentioned placebo effect. I've no objection to that at all.
For me it's just a kindness. I'm not keen on 'I'll pray for you' though. That goes from asking if I'd like something to presumptuousness.
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If someone wants to pray for me, generally, I'll try to take it in the spirit that it's intended - someone cares for me (directly or indirectly) and is doing what they think will help. I don't think it will, but for exactly the same reasons it won't hurt either, and it's meant as a nice gesture.
At times I might take them to task about what they're praying about, perhaps, but not their motivation or intentions in doing the praying.
O.
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It's quite a nuanced question I think. Clearly it's acceptable to the people who do it, and insofar as they keep it to themselves that's the end of the matter.
It gets more complicated though when those people also feel the need to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it. Why would they do that? Presumably they don't think their various gods will only do the business if they do this, so it must be because that way they feel more virtuous about it. It's weird - if I can do a favour for someone I don't feel the need to tell them, "I did that favour for you I did" yet it seems to be fairly common among the praying constituency.
On the other hand, if someone tells me that they're praying for me, while I'll think, "fine, but you might as well bang a few coconut shells together for all the good it'll do" for the most part I'll assume they're well-intentioned at least, so will respond accordingly.
Here's where it gets pernicious though. About ten years ago tragically a relatively young friend of ours died of cancer. My wife was diagnosed with the same cancer shortly afterwards (in fact it was partly because of his death that she insisted on the tests that found it) but she was treated earlier and was given the all clear. She had a McMiIllan coffee morning shortly afterwards, when three people there said to me that they'd prayed for her recovery. They clearly expected me to thank them for the effect the praying had had, but they also hinted that our mutual friend who'd died must have done something wrong for their prayers not to have worked in his case.
I decided to walk away rather than tell them what I thought about that.
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I decided to walk away rather than tell them what I thought about that.
A great deal of tongue-biting goes on in my case too :-X
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It's quite a nuanced question I think. Clearly it's acceptable to the people who do it, and insofar as they keep it to themselves that's the end of the matter.
It gets more complicated though when those people also feel the need to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it. Why would they do that? Presumably they don't think their various gods will only do the business if they do this, so it must be because that way they feel more virtuous about it. It's weird - if I can do a favour for someone I don't feel the need to tell them, "I did that favour for you I did" yet it seems to be fairly common among the praying constituency.
On the other hand, if someone tells me that they're praying for me, while I'll think, "fine, but you might as well bang a few coconut shells together for all the good it'll do" for the most part I'll assume they're well-intentioned at least, so will respond accordingly.
Here's where it gets pernicious though. About ten years ago tragically a relatively young friend of ours died of cancer. My wife was diagnosed with the same cancer shortly afterwards (in fact it was partly because of his death that she insisted on the tests that found it) but she was treated earlier and was given the all clear. She had a McMiIllan coffee morning shortly afterwards, when three people there said to me that they'd prayed for her recovery. They clearly expected me to thank them for the effect the praying had had, but they also hinted that our mutual friend who'd died must have done something wrong for their prayers not to have worked in his case.
I decided to walk away rather than tell them what I thought about that.
I would have let them have it with all guns blazing! :o
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It's quite a nuanced question I think. Clearly it's acceptable to the people who do it, and insofar as they keep it to themselves that's the end of the matter.
It gets more complicated though when those people also feel the need to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it. Why would they do that? Presumably they don't think their various gods will only do the business if they do this, so it must be because that way they feel more virtuous about it. It's weird - if I can do a favour for someone I don't feel the need to tell them, "I did that favour for you I did" yet it seems to be fairly common among the praying constituency.
On the other hand, if someone tells me that they're praying for me, while I'll think, "fine, but you might as well bang a few coconut shells together for all the good it'll do" for the most part I'll assume they're well-intentioned at least, so will respond accordingly.
Here's where it gets pernicious though. About ten years ago tragically a relatively young friend of ours died of cancer. My wife was diagnosed with the same cancer shortly afterwards (in fact it was partly because of his death that she insisted on the tests that found it) but she was treated earlier and was given the all clear. She had a McMiIllan coffee morning shortly afterwards, when three people there said to me that they'd prayed for her recovery. They clearly expected me to thank them for the effect the praying had had, but they also hinted that our mutual friend who'd died must have done something wrong for their prayers not to have worked in his case.
I decided to walk away rather than tell them what I thought about that.
Yes, this is one of the issues that I have. There is definitely an ego stroke involved for some and this is when it stops being purely a nice, kindly-meant gesture - these people thought that they had a hand in your wife's recovery and, by implication, that she wouldn't have recovered had they not asked their god to intervene. It's very difficult to think of anything more arrogant.
I once came across a woman who had MS and who joined a church that organised a healing service especially for her. They could just about accept that she didn't get out of her wheelchair and cartwheel down the aisle at the service itself, but then when she hadn't been 'cured' after a few days she was told that it was because of unrepented sin on her part and that she was no longer welcome in their church.
Generally I think I try to be respectful of the beliefs of others, so long as they don't hurt others, but I wouldn't have walked away in your situation, Blue - well done for doing so. And I am so glad that your wife is ok now.
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Christian aid and the Sally Army are two charities I have got time for inspite of their god doctor side; I gave some money to a Sally Army collector recently and I mentioned the respect I have for them with regard to their works with looking for missing people etc, and I did mention my non-religious Humanist leanings then as I walked on I got well god 'bless you anyway', even though I had pointed out my respect for his organisation, he didn't respect my Humanist outlook, so as far as I'm concerned his 'well god bless you anyway', he might as well said to me well bollocks to your Humanism anyway, some people just don't get it, I don't think the majority of them ever will.
ippy
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Thank you Rhi. Might be interesting if anyone here who thinks praying works could tell us why it's important to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it.
Good to have you back by the way x
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"Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret "
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
JC
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Christian aid and the Sally Army are two charities I have got time for inspite of their god doctor side; I gave some money to a Sally Army collector recently and I mentioned the respect I have for them with regard to their works with looking for missing people etc, and I did mention my non-religious Humanist leanings then as I walked on I got well god 'bless you anyway', even though I had pointed out my respect for his organisation, he didn't respect my Humanist outlook, so as far as I'm concerned his 'well god bless you anyway', he might as well said to me well bollocks to your Humanism anyway, some people just don't get it, I don't think the majority of them ever will.
ippy
I agree both do a good job and we give them donations.
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"Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret "
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
JC
He said all sorts of stuff about not judging and forgiveness and things. Just the kind of wishy washy liberal the church can do without.
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"God already knows your needs before you ask."
Terms and conditions apply:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6214/6297575351_68f9265f38.jpg
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Terms and conditions apply:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6214/6297575351_68f9265f38.jpg
Yes. The first quote was in response to Blue's question "why it's important to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it." and the second invites the question .. why pray (ask) anyway?
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"Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret "
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
JC
I agree with the above. We certainly don't have to tell anyone we are praying for them though we can if they are likely to be pleased by it.
The second quotation is extremely apt when we are trying to pray for something for ourselves but can't find the right words. That often happens to me, I find it easier to pray for others or another but when it comes to me my mind becomes chaotic.
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ekim,
Yes. The first quote was in response to Blue's question "why it's important to tell the person prayed for that they're doing it." and the second invites the question .. why pray (ask) anyway?
The first answer ("Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret") though suggests not only that the supplicant shouldn't tell the prayee, but maybe that he'd be breaking the rule if he did and so would risk making the prayer not work?
Thanks for the answer: next time someone says, "I prayed for you" I'll reply - "Oh great - so you don't want the prayer to work then you heartless swine" ;)
The second ("God already knows your needs before you ask") still leaves open the question of why bother with the asking at all. Is this god really so petulant and insecure that he has to be asked to do the right thing? Wow!
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Terms and conditions apply:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6214/6297575351_68f9265f38.jpg
A square on the head of the nail coment Shakes, without opening your link.
ippy
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"Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret "
"God already knows your needs before you ask."
JC
Could you tell all of us here on this forum about how you acquired this info, only you have expressed that you know these things in such a positive maner, almost as though you've managed to get it first hand from your god, whatever.
I look forward to your answer ekim.
ippy
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Matthew 6:5-8 New International Version (NIV)
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
To me, that is common sense. Even for non-Christians, it is always better not to be ostentatious.
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Matthew 6:5-8 New International Version (NIV)
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
To me, that is common sense. Even for non-Christians, it is always better not to be ostentatious.
Brownie, how have you come to the conclusion private prayer does any more or any less than shouting them from the roof tops comes under the heading of 'common sense' and why?
Come to think of it, why would I pray in public or private?
I'm unable to see any usefull purpose served by praying other than for some kind of reason it makes the one doing the praying, whether in private or not, feeling that they have satisfied some kind of need they have? It's puzzling to me?
Ippy
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Could you tell all of us here on this forum about how you acquired this info, only you have expressed that you know these things in such a positive maner, almost as though you've managed to get it first hand from your god, whatever.
I look forward to your answer ekim.
ippy
Yes, see the full quote in Brownie's reply. I just paraphrased the essence of it.
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Yes, see the full quote in Brownie's reply. I just paraphrased the essence of it.
I see you've just paraphrased it, I assume you're not declaring that you know this to be a fact, or are we just playing around with words?
ippy
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Anyone who knows me would not say that they had prayed for me! If an acquaintance said they had prayed for me or family, I would say, politely but firmly, something like, 'I appreciate the thought but there is no god to pray to or who can have any influence.' Since I am quite good at being politely assertive with a friendly approach, I very much doubt if I would be challenged!! :)
(At least I am able to post - it has bheen, 'this page can't be displayed' all day/
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I will not come to you saying that I'm going to pray for you, SusanDoris, promise :D.
Ippy, I was only explaining what Christians believe and accept that a non-believer would think it worthless regardless of whether public or private.
To me it makes sense but I also think that anything we do for others is best done without ostentation. Nothing worse than people doing stuff for charity, for example, and publicising themselves ("Look how good I am"). Exceptions being when they are trying to drum up support for a good cause.
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I will not come to you saying that I'm going to pray for you, SusanDoris, promise :D.
:) Ippy, I was only explaining what Christians believe and accept that a non-believer would think it worthless regardless of whether public or private.
To me it makes sense but I also think that anything we do for others is best done without ostentation. Nothing worse than people doing stuff for charity, for example, and publicising themselves ("Look how good I am"). Exceptions being when they are trying to drum up support for a good cause.
If praying for someone makes sense to you, can you say what procedure you think follows a prayer? If a person prays to God (the one with a capital G!), then that is a thought in his/her head. What do you think happens next?
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I see you've just paraphrased it, I assume you're not declaring that you know this to be a fact, or are we just playing around with words?
ippy
..... Know what to be a fact?
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People pray because it makes them feel better, imo. What I don't get is those who still praise god when their prayers don't get a positive response. A case in point are the people who have had many prayers offered for their healing, yet their prayers go unanswered. When challenged some Christians will say that god sometimes says no for the best of reasons. I am thinking of a particular case, which has being going on for about 18 months. Prayers have been offered on their behalf yet their condition has worsened in such a way it must be very hard for the person concerned as it appears they are suffering emotionally and physically. It must be terrible for the family having to witness it. What sort of god would not do anything to help if it could?
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..... Know what to be a fact?
I've just seen this post of yours ekim, my question in that previous post would be obvious to most but it seems to have been bypassed by you for some reason, I don't always see eye to eye with your posts but to date they haven't conveyed to me that you're in any way as thick as two short planks, is it some sort of game? Like you'll not understand my posts however I present them to you or is it you can't find a rational answer to that rather obvious and easily understood origional question?
ippy
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People pray because it makes them feel better, imo. What I don't get is those who still praise god when their prayers don't get a positive response. A case in point are the people who have had many prayers offered for their healing, yet their prayers go unanswered. When challenged some Christians will say that god sometimes says no for the best of reasons. I am thinking of a particular case, which has being going on for about 18 months. Prayers have been offered on their behalf yet their condition has worsened in such a way it must be very hard for the person concerned as it appears they are suffering emotionally and physically. It must be terrible for the family having to witness it. What sort of god would not do anything to help if it could?
I suspect that at some point most people will have seen a quotation widely attributed to - but almost certainly never actually said by - Albert Einstein: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result." (In some versions it reads: "... a different result"). This is one of those internet meme thingies which has been attributed to everybody and anybody. (Mark Twain is another perennial favourite). In actuality, nobody has ever been able to trace this quote to anywhere in Einstein's writings. On balance, he most likely never said it.
Nevertheless, somebody, somewhere, at some point in time did say it, so let's take it on its face. It sounds pretty much like the hallmark of petitionary prayer to me - expecting that the Creator of All That Is can have its presumably perfect plan swayed by human beings speaking internally to it in their own heads with their eyes closed. The most casual and cursory glance at the Prayer Thread here ought to give anyone pause as to exactly how well that little exercise works out; it ought to, but doesn't, because the belief in a prayer-answering god has its own inbuilt unfalsifiability where absolutely any and every state of affairs no matter how horrendous is interpreted as bolstering the belief, not falsifying it. Prayer offered; desired outcome = thank you Lord! Undesired outcome = ah well, God knows best, his ways are not our ways - thank you Lord! This abysmal travesty of reasoning is made to be compatible with quite literally everything that happens (which in a tremendous number of cases is of course the result of sheer random chance, not the cunningly-concealed arbitrary whims of a capricious agent). In normal, that is to say rational cases people would, after several endeavours of this kind, regard the experiment as a failure and the hypothesis falsified ... but we're not talking about normal and rational cases.
I could specify some concrete examples of this woeful phenomenon at work, but I shall forbear, save to say that one has to wonder just how many times an undesired result has to show itself before more or less normally-constituted people start to wonder if their activity is having any distinct effect of any kind whatever.
It strikes me as a little like a domestically violent/abusive relationship - it'll be different next time ... it'll be different next time ... it says something about the psychology of some humans that in the teeth of all evidence they would sooner insist on believing in the whims of a capricious, random and arbitrary agent indistinguishable from capricious, random and arbitrary events rather than cutting out the middle god and going straight to random chance. It says something, and nothing complimentary.
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Christian aid and the Sally Army are two charities I have got time for inspite of their god doctor side; I gave some money to a Sally Army collector recently and I mentioned the respect I have for them with regard to their works with looking for missing people etc, and I did mention my non-religious Humanist leanings then as I walked on I got well god 'bless you anyway', even though I had pointed out my respect for his organisation, he didn't respect my Humanist outlook, so as far as I'm concerned his 'well god bless you anyway', he might as well said to me well bollocks to your Humanism anyway, some people just don't get it, I don't think the majority of them ever will.
ippy
I think you are wrong, I think there are many Christians who do appreciate people who are non religious humanists.
I'm sure there are lots that don't, but I know many personally in real life, who do.
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I will always ask 'Do you wish me to ask the deities in which I believe to offer you their assistance in their field of expertise (i e Brighid for healing)?
The dieties in which I believe have enough people who believe in them to look after to bother with those who do not want their help because they deny any deity but their own, who, if they are to be believed have inflicted upon them that for which the removal of is being prayed for.
I have had Christians who have asked me, or my Coven, to ask my/oor deities for help on the basis that they are so deep in the mire that any help from any direction will not be wasted or rejected.
No, neither I nor any member of my Coven, or any other Pagan of any stripe whom I know, would request aid for anyone who denies all deities. Raising energy in Circle requires serious concentration and mental effort and I, for one, will be buggered if I will make that effort to have it thrown back in my face if the deity to whom the request is addressed decides "He/she doesn't believe in me so "sod 'em" let 'em die!"
Oh yes, my deities can be just as big a load of bastards as the Christian one but they do not deny that trait in themselves.
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I will always ask 'Do you wish me to ask the deities in which I believe to offer you their assistance in their field of expertise (i e Brighid for healing)?
The dieties in which I believe have enough people who believe in them to look after to bother with those who do not want their help because they deny any deity but their own, who, if they are to be believed have inflicted upon them that for which the removal of is being prayed for.
I have had Christians who have asked me, or my Coven, to ask my/oor deities for help on the basis that they are so deep in the mire that any help from any direction will not be wasted or rejected.
No, neither I nor any member of my Coven, or any other Pagan of any stripe whom I know, would request aid for anyone who denies all deities. Raising energy in Circle requires serious concentration and mental effort and I, for one, will be buggered if I will make that effort to have it thrown back in my face if the deity to whom the request is addressed decides "He/she doesn't believe in me so "sod 'em" let 'em die!"
Oh yes, my deities can be just as big a load of bastards as the Christian one but they do not deny that trait in themselves.
'Do you wish me to ask the deities in which I believe to offer you their assistance in their field of expertise (i e Brighid for healing)?
It's a bit of a mouthful Owlswing 😜🌹
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'Do you wish me to ask the deities in which I believe to offer you their assistance in their field of expertise (i e Brighid for healing)?
It's a bit of a mouthful Owlswing 😜🌹
Better than a mouthful of knuckles for doing it without asking!
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I've just seen this post of yours ekim, my question in that previous post would be obvious to most but it seems to have been bypassed by you for some reason, I don't always see eye to eye with your posts but to date they haven't conveyed to me that you're in any way as thick as two short planks, is it some sort of game? Like you'll not understand my posts however I present them to you or is it you can't find a rational answer to that rather obvious and easily understood origional question?
ippy
If you look at Msg 29 you will see the context for the reason for my paraphrased quote, which Bluehillside understood. It is a fact that it relates to an alleged saying of Jesus from Matt 6: 5-8.
I would therefore assume that "Pray in secret as God dwells and responds in secret " is a belief held by Christians as is "God already knows your needs before you ask", which one would expect if the God is omniscient. As regards understanding your posts and as I don't play games on this site, it is better to assume that I am as thick as two planks. I shan't mind and it saves time.
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Better than a mouthful of knuckles for doing it without asking!
True
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Would someone real repay good with evil?
Sometimes, I think people miss the real care behind the offering of others to pray or keep them in their own way.
Some times are motive are good.
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Would someone real repay good with evil?
...as opposed to? ----- Someone who is not real? :-\ :-\ :-\
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...as opposed to? ----- Someone who is not real? :-\ :-\ :-\
I would suggest that Sassy's question calls into question if the Christian God is real.
How many truly devout Christian families follow their God's rules to the letter and then have one of thier number hit by a bus and left in a vegetative state or hit with a (sometimes very) long term very unpleasant illness that takes X number of years to kill them?
If their God is real would he repay the familiy's good with the evil of these evil horrors,