Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: john on March 17, 2017, 09:41:49 AM
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On the advice of Moderator Nearly Sane, I have changed this post. Hope the link works.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2017/03/09/loving-warn-people-hell/?utm_source=[!]%20Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NL%20Nonreligious&utm_content=13795
I copied this from “Godless in Dixie” website because I think it puts an interesting question very well.
Is it OK to scare people with stories about Hell? Here is what one man thinks.
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You might as well warn people about Voldemort and the Death Eaters too, as there is as much evidence to support their existence, in other words, NONE! ::)
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What do you think about it ,John?
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Walter
I thought my opinion on these sort of issues was well known here but then I know you are new'ish, so.
It is my opinion that religion (all kinds) does more harm than good.
This article merely explains very well one of my reasons for making the above statement.
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Walter
I thought my opinion on these sort of issues was well known here but then I know you are new'ish, so.
It is my opinion that religion (all kinds) does more harm than good.
This article merely explains very well one of my reasons for making the above statement.
oh! pardon me , didn't realise you were so important.
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Very good Walter.
Now, what do you think about it?
And by "it" do you mean what I think you mean?
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With my Mod hat on, many thanks, john, for changing the OP, and the link works for me.
With Mod hat off, and for that I am grateful, as the built in barbed wire makes it a modern jaggy bunnet (for aficionados of Billy Connelly), I have my usual issue that religion doesn't 'do' anything. It's a symptom not a cause of what we are. I don't see any way to stop what is covered in the article without having such a mammoth invasion of privacy that the consequences seem worse to me.
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Nearly Sane
Yes I do get your point.
I do believe that people have a right to "beliefs" the problem comes when they seek to impose the consequences of those beliefs on others.
For instance, there was once a public group that advocated that sex with children was OK, they no longer exist publically but I'm sure some individuals or even groups of associated individuals still hold those views. You could say there is nothing wrong with having such a belief but does their existence increase the chance that such beliefs will turn into action? And should we be keeping a very close eye on them? Oh I see, in fact we are!!!
No we can't stop people thinking anything. We can and should however stop peoples beliefs impinging upon the rights, comfort and well being of others especially vulnerable children.
The writer of this article makes a very good case (imo) for considering that some aspects of religious teaching are tantamount to child abuse and harm the welfare and development of children.
OK maybe we cannot or even should not (if you like) seek to prevent parents and religious groups from passing on their beliefs. But maybe we should try harder to ensure an antidote is available by ensuring (at school if no where else) children have full and unfettered access to alternative opinions. I would go further and say greater effort should be made in the media and elsewhere to publically point out the dangers of wrong thinking here.
It seems to me that, instead, all over the world governments and societies are giving more and more power to the religious to control the information their children have access to and deny them alternative viewpoints, by allowing religious schools to opt out of sex education for example.
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John
Definitely agree.
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When you are a young child being told you will burn in hell if you don't get 'saved', as happened to me, is very frightening indeed. It is so wrong as there is no evidence any hell, or heaven for that matter, exists.
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When you are a young child being told you will burn in hell if you don't get 'saved', as happened to me, is very frightening indeed. It is so wrong as there is no evidence any hell, or heaven for that matter, exists.
No, it comes across as a sadistic sort of power play adults indulge in, with vulnerable people.
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No, it comes across as a sadistic sort of power play adults indulge in, with vulnerable people.
The ghastly Elim Pentecostal church, I attended with my parents when I was a child, spouted it every Sunday with great gusto! >:(
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Ijust googled your ex-church Floo, not being familiar with them, and they're still going strong by the look of things. Did your parents stick to that church? You obviously didn't (& don't blame you).
http://www.elim.org.uk/Groups/243049/Welcome_to_Elim.aspx#
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Ijust googled your ex-church Floo, not being familiar with them, and they're still going strong by the look of things. Did your parents stick to that church? You obviously didn't (& don't blame you).
http://www.elim.org.uk/Groups/243049/Welcome_to_Elim.aspx#
No, even they got disenchanted, and moved to an evangelical C of E church when I was 18 in 1968. (My English mother was an Anglican) I was dispatched from there the following year when I married my English husband and I moved to the UK.
While I know one or two decent people who claim to be 'saved', the vast majority I have come across in my life have been the sort you wouldn't trust any further than you could throw them, if as far. The married pastor of the Elim church used to bring me back from the mid week youth meeting when I was 14. As he was driving he would stroke my thigh and tell me how beautiful my mother was. One of the elders told me exactly what he would like to do with my mother in his hay loft! ::) Some were oh so holy on a Sunday, but their business dealings were not honest! >:(
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No, even they got disenchanted, and moved to an evangelical C of E church when I was 18 in 1968. (My English mother was an Anglican) I was dispatched from there the following year when I married my English husband and I moved to the UK.
While I know one or two decent people who claim to be 'saved', the vast majority I have come across in my life have been the sort you wouldn't trust any further than you could throw them, if as far. The married pastor of the Elim church used to bring me back from the mid week youth meeting when I was 14. As he was driving he would stroke my thigh and tell me how beautiful my mother was. One of the elders told me exactly what he would like to do with my mother in his hay loft! ::) Some were oh so holy on a Sunday, but their business dealings were not honest! >:(
weirdos the lot of em, repressed wankers, or worse .
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floo your story is horrible,all too common unfortunately. Very glad your family moved to a mainstream church - not saying there aren't problems there, we know only too well there are, but more safeguards and many more 'average' and moderate people. I know that because of my CofE background. There came a time when I scoffed at that, 'Tory party at prayer' etc,but now see the value of it.
That doesn't undo the damage done to you as a kid butshows your parents became more reasonable. mAybe they were young during their Elim days, impressionable.
Yet Elim continues strong according to the link I posted. I didn't know much about them before.
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floo your story is horrible,all too common unfortunately. Very glad your family moved to a mainstream church - not saying there aren't problems there, we know only too well there are, but more safeguards and many more 'average' and moderate people. I know that because of my CofE background. There came a time when I scoffed at that, 'Tory party at prayer' etc,but now see the value of it.
That doesn't undo the damage done to you as a kid butshows your parents became more reasonable. mAybe they were young during their Elim days, impressionable.
Yet Elim continues strong according to the link I posted. I didn't know much about them before.
I know people who still attend the Elim church in my home island I attended as a child. There are three Elim churches there even though it is only a small island.
I am so very grateful my husband and I, who were 'born agains' in our youth, kicked the faith into touch as soon as we realised it had no basis in reality. However, we were of the opinion that children have a right to decide for themselves about matters of religion, and put no pressure on them to see it our way, even though we were non believers by the time they put in an appearance. Now in their 40s, our girls are Christians, the eldest a vicar/rural dean. Fortunately they are moderate in their views and definitely not Biblical literalists.
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Had a good read of the posts on this thread and it says to me the sooner any kind of religious privillege is removed from all of our schools; even that wouldn't be the whole answer at least it could be a long overdue and welcome start.
ippy
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Had a good read of the posts on this thread and it says to me the sooner any kind of religious privillege is removed from all of our schools; even that wouldn't be the whole answer at least it could be a long overdue and welcome start.
ippy
I agree. Having state sectarian schools is a blight.
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On the advice of Moderator Nearly Sane, I have changed this post. Hope the link works.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2017/03/09/loving-warn-people-hell/?utm_source=[!]%20Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NL%20Nonreligious&utm_content=13795
I copied this from “Godless in Dixie” website because I think it puts an interesting question very well.
Is it OK to scare people with stories about Hell? Here is what one man thinks.
I could not read the page John there is an error.
Firstly, " What is Hell?" Who has been there to scare people with stories of hell?
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Christ first spoke about Hell to show how the lack of love for others will get you where you do not want to be.
More poignant was the fact that he spoke about people who did not listen to Moses or the Prophets would not be persuaded by someone rising from the dead. Is it any wonder that today mankind do not believe in any of the above?
Is it more loving to let people wind up in hell or to warn them so they don't?
Why would anyone fear something they do not believe in?
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It is disgusting to scare people with like children and the vulnerable with scare stories of hell which in all probability doesn't exist! >:(
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Sasy,
Why would anyone fear something they do not believe in?
Because sometimes the "someone" doesn't have the critical faculties to realise that the claim is nonsense – a child for example.
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Sasy,
Because sometimes the "someone" doesn't have the critical faculties to realise that the claim is nonsense – a child for example.
Exactly. I had lots nightmares because of it as a young kid!
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People should examine why they are so exercised by hell, judgment or God even.
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People should examine why they are so exercised by hell, judgment or God even.
Do you?
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Vlad,
People should examine why they are so exercised by hell, judgment or God even.
“People” aren’t. What people are actually “exercised” by is fuckwits terrifying vulnerable people, children in particular, with ludicrous scare stories about these claims that they cannot know to be true.
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Vlad,
“People” aren’t. What people are actually “exercised” by is fuckwits terrifying vulnerable people, children in particular, with ludicrous scare stories about these claims that they cannot know to be true.
I've never come across that. Adult thinkers who gate contemplation of the possibility of living the damnable life definitely are exercised by it.
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Vlad,
I've never come across that.
Then you need to get out more. Religious educational establishments in particular were historically notorious for it.
Adult thinkers who gate contemplation of the possibility of living the damnable life definitely are exercised by it.
And for those of us working in English?
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Vlad,
Then you need to get out more. Religious educational establishments in particular were historically notorious for it.
Really? Then they had a wider curriculum than the National Curriculum and pedagogical approach as espoused by Woodhead, a secularist whose approach has lead to some bizarre understandings of politics, society religion and indeed science.
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Sasy,
Because sometimes the "someone" doesn't have the critical faculties to realise that the claim is nonsense – a child for example.
But they have the ability not to believe in God?
If you do not believe in God, why would you fear hell?
Did you fear hell as a child or as an adult?
Did you believe in God?
Children do not have to fear hell.
Ignorance breeds fear. Don't mark all churches the same as Roman Catholic with the fear of hell etc.
Sometimes, people just do not know how to evaluate the Love of God or the Love from God for others.
If in life we want the best for our children we teach them the truth.
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But they have the ability not to believe in God?
If you do not believe in God, why would you fear hell?
Did you fear hell as a child or as an adult?
Did you believe in God?
Children do not have to fear hell.
Ignorance breeds fear. Don't mark all churches the same as Roman Catholic with the fear of hell etc.
Sometimes, people just do not know how to evaluate the Love of God or the Love from God for others.
If in life we want the best for our children we teach them the truth.
Quite right, but you cannot know that it is true that any god exists!
So don't tell children that a god exists.
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Quite right, but you cannot know that it is true that any god exists!
No theory can conjur God up.
You have to experience God. Just being told God is real is not enough.
One way not to acknowledge God involves recasting yourself as the ultimate electric bonobo.
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But they have the ability not to believe in God?
If you do not believe in God, why would you fear hell?
Did you fear hell as a child or as an adult?
Did you believe in God?
Children do not have to fear hell.
Ignorance breeds fear. Don't mark all churches the same as Roman Catholic with the fear of hell etc.
Sometimes, people just do not know how to evaluate the Love of God or the Love from God for others.
If in life we want the best for our children we teach them the truth.
There is no verifiable 'truth ' where religion is concerned.
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Vlad,
No theory can conjur God up.
It's actually a conjecture or a speculation rather than a theory, and yes it can. Look, I'll show you...
...here's my conjecture: "God".
See? I just did it.
Tell you what, I'll even do it again for you...
...here's my conjecture: leprechauns.
Easy innit when you don't have to trouble yourself with logic or evidence.
You have to experience God.
Or really, really think you've "experienced God". And there have been countless such beliefs in all sorts of supernatural conjectures, many held just as strongly as you hold you own.
Just being told God is real is not enough.
So why, if it's not enough, is that all you have to bring to the table?
One way not to acknowledge God involves recasting yourself as the ultimate electric bonobo.
Another is to realise that "not to acknowledge God" is just the fallacy of reification again - a very bad argument. You have to demonstrate this "God" before you accuse people of failing to acknowledge it.
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Vlad,
It's actually a conjecture or a speculation rather than a theory, and yes it can. Look, I'll show you...
...here's my conjecture: "God".
See? I just did it.
Well your conclusion is certainly true if you alter key words, ideas and jumble the letters up.
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Vlad,
It's actually a conjecture or a speculation rather than a theory, and yes it can. Look, I'll show you...
...here's my conjecture: "God".
See? I just did it.
Tell you what, I'll even do it again for you...
...here's my conjecture: leprechauns.
Bang, glitter, whizz............
Hillside, you are straight through to the semi final.
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Vlad,
Well your conclusion is certainly true if you alter key words, ideas and jumble the letters up.
Nope - the conclusions may be different, but the argument by assertion that gets you to eiher is identical.
That's the point.
Bang, glitter, whizz............
Hillside, you are straight through to the semi final.
But sadly you on the other hand didn't make it even to the audition.
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But sadly you on the other hand didn't make it even to the audition.
I'm afraid i'm both Ant and Dec to your Stephen Mulhearn.
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Vlad,
I'm afraid i'm both Ant and Dec...
Antiquated Declamations?
Yours,
S. Cowell