Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Philosophy, in all its guises. => Topic started by: ad_orientem on March 21, 2017, 05:42:24 PM
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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39337805
Mind you, the last bit made me chuckle. "John Pilley, also known as Jane Anne, made legal history in 1999 when he became the first inmate in England and Wales to be granted permission for a sex change operation....It was later reported he decided to become a man again and was waiting to have his second operation on the NHS."
Fucked up, anyway.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39337805
Mind you, the last bit made me chuckle. "John Pilley, also known as Jane Anne, made legal history in 1999 when he became the first inmate in England and Wales to be granted permission for a sex change operation....It was later reported he decided to become a man again and was waiting to have his second operation on the NHS."
Fucked up, anyway.
unfortunately the penis was reattached the wrong way round, now he doesn't know if he's coming or going.
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There is a poster on the Grauniad boards who describes themselves as a "transgendered lesbian".
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There is a poster on the Grauniad boards who describes themselves as a "transgendered lesbian".
we should now accept, with all due respect , those who claim
'I'm a little teapot'
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One does wonder if you are lost for words why you bothered to comment.
That's me done with this board.
You can all talk your offensive nonsense to each other and feel very proud of yourself at how very witty you are.
Bye all.
Those that are bothered know where to find me.
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One does wonder if you are lost for words why you bothered to comment.
That's me done with this board.
You can all talk your offensive nonsense to each other and feel very proud of yourself at how very witty you are.
Bye all.
Those that are bothered know where to find me.
I hope you reconsider, TV, you are one of the good guys, unlike some! >:(
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One does wonder if you are lost for words why you bothered to comment.
That's me done with this board.
You can all talk your offensive nonsense to each other and feel very proud of yourself at how very witty you are.
Bye all.
Those that are bothered know where to find me.
oh dear ,
handbags at dawn ,Trent. Lighten up, have a laugh and have a nice day.
No offence...
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oh dear ,
handbags at dawn ,Trent. Lighten up, have a laugh and have a nice day.
No offence...
Walter you are a very unpleasant piece of work, I wish you would do this forum a favour and remove yourself. >:(
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Walter you are a very unpleasant piece of work, I wish you would do this forum a favour and remove yourself. >:(
aww Floo,
now you've made me blush ;)
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One does wonder if you are lost for words why you bothered to comment.
That's me done with this board.
You can all talk your offensive nonsense to each other and feel very proud of yourself at how very witty you are.
Bye all.
Those that are bothered know where to find me.
There's plenty to be concerned about. Firstly that people who have raped women are being put into womens prisons. Secondly, that these operations are being done on the NHS and therefore at the taxpayers expence. And how many times is one allowed to go back and forth? All it shows is that such people don't need operations but rather psychiatric help.
When I was a kid we had one word for such people "perverts", along with nonces and other such wierdos.
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ad-o; With respect. I hope you don't have the same word for them now. Such words can lead to bullyimng, and bullying to suicide.
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ad-o; With respect. I hope you don't have the same word for them now. Such words can lead to bullyimng, and bullying to suicide.
Indeed, Anchorman, there is a good discussion to be had on transgender issues but it won't happen if people think that sniggering about it at the back of the class is contributing to the discussion. As the link covers this has lead to suicide.
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Indeed, Anchorman, there is a good discussion to be had on transgender issues but it won't happen if people think that sniggering about it at the back of the class is contributing to the discussion. As the link covers this has lead to suicide.
Agreed.
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OK, in for a penny..... I'm robust enough to declare openly that, due to a genetic problem, I have no sex drive. I'm male (at least I hope I am, 'cos this beard's hard to explain sometimes...), but that's about it. I have rudimentary sex organs - and have been reluctant to discuss it - for the very reasons some have laughed off on this thread. Have I been bullied? You bet - not only because of that, but the hormone imbalance means I can't lose weight either - and that, let me tell you, is a hellish thing if you're a teenager,. The bullying was verbal - and physical as well, so I can empathise with those who are driven over the edge. It might be fine having a giggle in the locker room, but let me tell you from personal experience that it can hurt. I sincerely hope TV reconsiders his decision.
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Anchorman, thank you for that incredibly brave post. As ever, I find your post filled with compassion and understanding.
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Me too. As a poster of short acquaintance, my respect for Anchor is huge & growing daily.
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I think, Jim, as is often the case, you've hit the nail on the head.
Gender matters are fundamentally about people, and people aren't just whatever gender-related labels or pejoratives that some may apply to them (often unkindly). Far better to be aware of how people are personally affected by gender matters, as you've just told us.
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Anchorman I think you are really brave too, and deserve a HUGE amount of respect. I hope there are no more snide, bullying comments on this topic.
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I hope there are no more snide, bullying comments on this topic.
I hope so too, Floo.
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Well done, Jim, on your honesty and bravery. Come on, Trent, don't let a few pathetic bigots drive you away. They exist on most forums, but they can be combated. How truly pathetic to pick on vulnerable people like that.
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Well done, Jim, on your honesty and bravery. Come on, Trent, don't let a few pathetic bigots drive you away. They exist on most forums, but they can be combated. How truly pathetic to pick on vulnerable people like that.
The article is about a rapist of women who, now that he thinks is a woman and has been made to look like one, is doing time in a women's prison. There is another issue as well which is, should the the taxpayer be forking out for such operations in the first place?
To be honest, if I came across such a person I'd probably run a mile.
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The article is about a rapist of women who, now that he thinks is a woman and has been made to look like one, is doing time in a women's prison. There is another issue as well which is, should the the taxpayer be forking out for such operations in the first place?
To be honest, if I came across such a person I'd probably run a mile.
I don't believe you. You want to vent your bigoted views, well, OK, you are allowed to, as others are allowed to point out your bigotry and bullying tactics.
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I think adorientum's post deserves some attention, we've stated how we feel about sniggering etc but sniggering apart, if someone is pretending to be what they are nto in order to be able to commit abuse, its a diffrent matter algtogether & that was the point of the op.
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The article is about a rapist of women who, now that he thinks is a woman and has been made to look like one, is doing time in a women's prison. There is another issue as well which is, should the the taxpayer be forking out for such operations in the first place?
To be honest, if I came across such a person I'd probably run a mile.
And in your remark about perverts, nonces and weirdos you made a much more general point and in a tone that read as if you regretted not being able to bully people by calling them names any more.
If you can't read Anchorman's post and see the problem, I feel pity for you.
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I don't believe you. You want to vent your bigoted views, well, OK, you are allowed to, as others are allowed to point out your bigotry and bullying tactics.
Believe what the bloody hell you want, pal! It makes not one jot of difference to me.
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I think adorientum's post deserves some attention, we've stated how we feel about sniggering etc but sniggering apart, if someone is pretending to be what they are nto in order to be able to commit abuse, its a diffrent matter algtogether & that was the point of the op.
The first paragraph in his post is fine it's the second that is causing the issue. Until he demonstrates that he understands the issue that will preclude any useful discussion.
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The first paragraph in his post is fine it's the second that is causing the issue. Until he demonstrates that he understands the issue that will preclude any useful discussion.
I cannot change my mind because I find something inherently seedy about the whole thing, hence the comment about running a mile.
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Believe what the bloody hell you want, pal! It makes not one jot of difference to me.
Yes, I know. I'm sure you are indifferent to the presence on this forum of people who are not your ideal of straight white males, or whatever it is, so you continue to pour out your bigotry. Who care about anyone else, as long as you get to spread your hatred?
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Believe what the bloody hell you want, pal! It makes not one jot of difference to me.
You horrible little person, your religion is a SHAM, it certainly has not benefitted you at all! >:(
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It's Christian love, Floo.
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I cannot change my mind because I find something inherently seedy about the whole thing, hence the comment about running a mile.
I was referring to you seem to regret that you can't call people perverts, nonces and weirdos any more.
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It's Christian love, Floo.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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I was referring to you seem to regret that you can't call people perverts, nonces and weirdos any more.
That's what they are in common lingo.
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That's what they are in common lingo.
By sniggering children. Grow up. Read Anchorman's post in reply to your's and think about it.
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I was referring to you seem to regret that you can't call people perverts, nonces and weirdos any more.
This thread and subject matter apart, you cannot call anyone a pervert?
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This thread and subject matter apart, you cannot call anyone a pervert?
Except that the thread and what is on it is the point.
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That's what they are in common lingo.
- Seriously, ad-o, as Christians, we should realise that this 'common lingo' has nothing to recommend it. It's the kind of trash the Westbro Baptists spout. I sincerley pray your Christian conviction has nothing of that about it!
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- Seriously, ad-o, as Christians, we should realise that this 'common lingo' has nothing to recommend it. It's the kind of trash the Westbro Baptists spout. I sincerley pray your Christian conviction has nothing of that about it!
I think ad-o is an unpleasant bigot who would fit well in with the Westbro Baptist mob. >:(
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The first paragraph in his post is fine it's the second that is causing the issue. Until he demonstrates that he understands the issue that will preclude any useful discussion.
Quite right; lets see if he comes back withnanything. I dont think he does understand, really, but wanted to give him benefit ofndoubt.
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I think ad-o is an unpleasant bigot who would fit well in with the Westbro Baptist mob. >:(
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I don't accept that, floo.
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Except that the thread and what is on it is the point.
But you said....
I was referring to you seem to regret that you can't call people perverts, nonces and weirdos any more.
When I read that it suggests otherwise, like you cannot use those terms ever. Nowhere do you suggest it is just related to this thread.
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I don't accept that, floo.
Nor do I. So is there a way to talk about the subject without sniggering, without expressing random disgust for groups of people. ?
One thing that should be picked up on is the part of the link where the victim of the rapist expresses her problems with this. It is not just a matter of bigots and it's a shame if we cannot hold a civil discussion on this. There are plenty of feminists I know who would speak out against thus move, and yet as also evidenced by the link, suicide has happened.
I think we need to split thus up into some constituent parts. First of all the question of how approach transgender peooks, and if we are going to start from a position that they are perverts, nonces and weirdos, it's going to be a short discussion.
Secondly what happens in general for a transgender person in the prison system, do we treat them differently from someone outside the system or the same?
Thirdly are there certain offences, such as rape, that over and above any answer tontge second question afferct what we have as policy?
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But you said....
When I read that it suggests otherwise, like you cannot use those terms ever. Nowhere do you suggest it is just related to this thread.
Context is all here. I replied to Ad_o where he indicates that he used to call a set of people perverts, nonces and weirdos. The implication seems yo be that he is sad that he cannot now. Following on from that we have Anchorman's brave post pointing out the effect of people using terms in a careless fashion which is bullying.
So no generalised statement from me about what should be the use of those terms.
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I don't accept that, floo.
You are a kind person.
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- Seriously, ad-o, as Christians, we should realise that this 'common lingo' has nothing to recommend it. It's the kind of trash the Westbro Baptists spout. I sincerley pray your Christian conviction has nothing of that about it!
My point was that we already had an apt description of the type of person referred to in my link. It describes exactly what they are. A rapist who's had a sex change and who has been moved to women's prison. Such is no better than a nonce. And to top it all it's all done at the taxpayers expence.
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My point was that we already had an apt description of the type of person referred to in my link. It describes exactly what they are. A rapist who's had a sex change and who has been moved to women's prison. Such is no better than a nonce. And to top it all it's all done at the taxpayers expence.
Actually, your post isn't clear as it seems to imply that you regard all transgender people as 'perverts', did you mean that?
Further I think Anchorman regards such labelling as against his Christianity, and his view of Jesus would not be using words like pervert, nonce, or weirdo about people. In addition, given from his post about his own situation. It's clear that such name calling and bullying is something he has suffered, I take it that you thoroughly condemn this?
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Well done, Jim, on your honesty and bravery. Come on, Trent, don't let a few pathetic bigots drive you away. They exist on most forums, but they can be combated. How truly pathetic to pick on vulnerable people like that.
I wish it to be known it was never my intention to offend anyone . If I have, please accept my most sincere apologies.
Walter.
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Actually, your post isn't clear as it seems to imply that you regard all transgender people as 'perverts', did you mean that? Further I think Anchorman regards such labelling as against his Christianity, and his view of Jesus would not be using words like pervert, nonce, or weirdo about people. In addition, given from his post about his own situation. It's clear that such name calling and bullying is something he has suffered, I take it that you thoroughly condemn this?
- No-one in their right mind condones rape - and rapists deserve all the punishment the law dictates. However using this language is a bit judgemental, isn't it? This person has issues we can't even imagine. Yes, he/she's a criminal. But he's also a human being; a human we are commanded to love. We don't have a choice if we are Christian. No-one said it was easy - it isn't. This person needed help; as part of the treatment they would receive the necessary psychological and psychiatric assessment - the operation would not procede without it. Surely if, after such assessment, the experts felt that to give this patient some kind of quality of life, the operation was neceaary, our silly little euphamisms are simply shown as pathetic. [/quote]
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I hope you reconsider, TV, you are one of the good guys, unlike some! >:(
Thanks, Floo, at last I have a second reason for leaving, your classing me as one of the bad guys or, at the very least, as not one of the good guys!
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Actually, your post isn't clear as it seems to imply that you regard all transgender people as 'perverts', did you mean that?
Not necessarily, but it's certainly not my view that sex change operations are the answer. That starts with not referring a man who thinks he's a woman as "she". That also goes for women who think they're men.
Further I think Anchorman regards such labelling as against his Christianity, and his view of Jesus would not be using words like pervert, nonce, or weirdo about people. In addition, given from his post about his own situation. It's clear that such name calling and bullying is something he has suffered, I take it that you thoroughly condemn this?
No, I don't like bullying, but then referring to someone as a pervert doesn't immediately imply bullying. In the case of the person in the link I would say it's an apt description, as with all people of that sort.
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Not necessarily, but it's certainly not my view that sex change operations are the answer. That starts with not referring a man who thinks he's a woman as "she". That also goes for women who think they're men.
No, I don't like bullying, but then referring to someone as a pervert doesn't immediately imply bullying. In the case of the person in the link I would say it's an apt description, as with all people of that sort.
I think tying pervert, to nonce and weirdo does imply bullying. I think if you are going to deal with any individual labelling them as a pervert will be bullying. I think that thinking you know what would help in this to the extent of refusing to do as they want to do could also be seen as bullying.
You may also want to unpack that 'Not necessarily' to explain what you mean
As I covered earlier, I think you need to deal with this in three parts, if you object to gender reassignments, then make that case first since in a sense the rest of the case doesn't matter because even if the person asking for gender reassignment had never broken any laws, invented cures for all cancers, and won BaKe Off and Strictly in the same year, you would still be objecting.
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That's just your opinion but, yes, I do object to sex change operations. Psychiatric help is what is needed.
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That's just your opinion but, yes, I do object to sex change operations. Psychiatric help is what is needed.
are you trained in psychiatry ?
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That's just your opinion but, yes, I do object to sex change operations. Psychiatric help is what is needed.
On what grounds do you object to sex change operations? What 'psychiatric help' are you referring to? And what psychiatric qualifications do you have?
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That's just your opinion but, yes, I do object to sex change operations. Psychiatric help is what is needed.
I think there are more issues here than you realise - I have some limited knowledge here since Mrs G (a CPN, until she retires in June) has worked in a team dealing with the assessment of candidates for gender re-assignment.
One is that surgery would not be offered unless it was clinically justified, since to conduct unjustified surgery would be unethical, and the second is that while psychiatric assessment is part of the process (hence Mrs G's involvement) that someone is approved for gender-re-assignment indicates that in their case any psychiatric support they did need would be secondary to the need for surgery.
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are you trained in psychiatry ?
No, but if a man thinks he's a woman, or vice versa, then that quite obviously suggests some sort of psychological disorder. That's not rocket science. A sex change operation is more than just an unnecessary procedure, just like chopping off a perfectly healthy leg. It's just as unethical.
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I thought that clinical workers, including psychiatrists, had concluded, after several decades of investigation, that some trans people are best helped by transitioning. The alternative for some is continual depression, bullying, and the danger of suicide. Of course, transitioning is not a universal panacea, and for others, you might 'watch and wait'. Presumably, ad-O has studied the psychology of gender and sexuality.
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No, but if a man thinks he's a woman, or vice versa, then that quite obviously suggests some sort of psychological disorder. That's not rocket science. A sex change operation is more than just an unnecessary procedure, just like chopping off a perfectly healthy leg.
You are arguing from ignorance, ad.
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The same approach used to be used towards gays and lesbians. They are obviously psychologically disturbed, should be offered conversion treatment, and not accepted as gay. Fortunately, times have changed, and bigotry is seen for what it is.
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No, but if a man thinks he's a woman, or vice versa, then that quite obviously suggests some sort of psychological disorder. That's not rocket science. A sex change operation is more than just an unnecessary procedure, just like chopping off a perfectly healthy leg. It's just as unethical.
Agreed it isn't rocket science, neither has it anything to do with psychiatry. Gender dysphoria is a medical condition.
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I thought that clinical workers, including psychiatrists, had concluded, after several decades of investigation, that some trans people are best helped by transitioning. The alternative for some is continual depression, bullying, and the danger of suicide. Of course, transitioning is not a universal panacea, and for others, you might 'watch and wait'. Presumably, ad-O has studied the psychology of gender and sexuality.
As I said, it ain't rocket science. Sex change operations do not solve the problem, rather it just panders to the delusion. Modern ideas of gender and sexuality is bollocks. It's just one big delusion itself. The first delusion is separating gender from sex.
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Thanks, Floo, at last I have a second reason for leaving, your classing me as one of the bad guys or, at the very least, as not one of the good guys!
Where did I say you were one of the bad guys, are you leaving the forum?
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I wondered the same, floo. Can't see how Owlswing fits into all this. Looking at his posts he is very angry all the time so maybe picks up on things that aren't directed at him.
Agree with you that Anchor is very kind; we'd all do well to emulate him.
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As I said, it ain't rocket science. Sex change operations do not solve the problem, rather it just panders to the delusion. Modern ideas of gender and sexuality is bollocks. It's just one big delusion itself. The first delusion is separating gender from sex.
No: just no. You really don't understand this since if you were right it would mean the medical and associated professions (inc. people like Mrs G) would be behaving unethically en masse.
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As I said, it ain't rocket science. Sex change operations do not solve the problem, rather it just panders to the delusion. Modern ideas of gender and sexuality is bollocks. It's just one big delusion itself. The first delusion is separating gender from sex.
On the one hand, you say that trans people need psychiatric treatment, and then when I mention some ideas in psychiatry and psychotherapy, in relation to trans, you say that it's rubbish. Well, obviously, I should defer to your superior knowledge.
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No: just no. You really don't understand this since if you were right it would mean the medical and associated professions (inc. people like Mrs G) would be behaving unethically en masse.
I do.
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On the one hand, you say that trans people need psychiatric treatment, and then when I mention some ideas in psychiatry and psychotherapy, in relation to trans, you say that it's rubbish. Well, obviously, I should defer to your superior knowledge.
Good!
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I do.
can I just check that it is akso your opinion that homosexuality should be treated as with 'psychiatric help'?
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I do.
Mrs G will be in from work later so I'll let her know that in doing part of her job for many years she has been acting unethically - she's bound to ask about your knowledge, qualifications and experience in this field - so what shall I tell her?
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It's my understanding that would-be transgender people do have quite a lot of psychiatric help,so as to be as sure as possible it is the right course. My knowledge comes from a clinic at the Charing X Hospital in London. Such treatment & surgery is not undertaken lightly.
Ad-o you are going away from youroriginal objection to a rapist being given transgender surgery and the motives of that person, most ,in fact vast majority do not fit that category, they're not rapists but ordinary people.
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It's my understanding that would-be transgender people do have quite a lot of psychiatric help,so as to be as sure as possible it is the right course. My knowledge comes from a clinic at the Charing X Hospital in London. Such treatment & surgery is not undertaken lightly.
Ad-o you are going away from youroriginal objection to a rapist being given transgender surgery and the motives of that person, most ,in fact vast majority do not fit that category, they're not rapists but ordinary people.
He has to move from the original position because there is no point in addressing whether a specific case should have gender reassignment if he thinks there should be no gender assignment at all.
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can I just check that it is akso your opinion that homosexuality should be treated as with 'psychiatric help'?
To some degree, yes. I think the greater problem in both cases, however, is a spiritual one but that can only be addressed if one has faith. And no, I don't believe in "conversion", only that through faith one can fight such inclinations.
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To some degree, yes. I think the greater problem in both cases, however, is a spiritual one but that can only be addressed if one has faith. And no, I don't believe in "conversion", only that through faith one can fight such inclinations.
So actually you don't think this because of psychiatric reasons or knowledge but because you see this as sin.
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It's my understanding that would-be transgender people do have quite a lot of psychiatric help,so as to be as sure as possible it is the right course. My knowledge comes from a clinic at the Charing X Hospital in London. Such treatment & surgery is not undertaken lightly.
Ad-o you are going away from youroriginal objection to a rapist being given transgender surgery and the motives of that person, most ,in fact vast majority do not fit that category, they're not rapists but ordinary people.
OK. But what would explain this part then:
"John Pilley, also known as Jane Anne, made legal history in 1999 when he became the first inmate in England and Wales to be granted permission for a sex change operation.
Pilley was serving life for the attempted murder and kidnapping of a woman taxi driver. It was later reported he decided to become a man again and was waiting to have his second operation on the NHS."
Was he let down by the NHS in making the first change or is being failed now or is just ... ? He could probably sue?
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Moderator:
Just to say this thread is more suited the Ethics & Freethought, so we will move it there later. Just noting this now for the convenience of those who've been posting here.
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Udayana, I didn't note whether or not the man had his treatment on NHS, presume he did as he was in prison.
No I don't think he should sue but I don't know every fact.
Doctors can only do so much there will always be some who later regret the change however convinced they are at the time that it is right. I read of a case a few years ago of a man who was so heartbroken, depressed and demoralised after his marriage broke up (more to it than that but that was trigger), that he had gender reassignment and later wanted to change back, butcases like those are in the minority.
Maybe there should be more safeguards?
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Udayana, I didn't note whether or not the man had his treatment on NHS, presume he did as he was in prison.
Doctors can only do so much there will always be some who later regret the change however convinced they are at the time that it is right. I read of a case a few years ago of a man who was so heartbroken, depressed and demoralised after his marriage broke up (more to it than that but that was trigger), that he had gender reassignment and later wanted to change back, butcases like those are in the minority.
Maybe there should be more safeguards?
There will always be nutters and as long as I'm as far away from them as I can be , the better .
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Yet you post here..... ;)
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Yet you post here..... ;)
;D
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Yet you post here..... ;)
Karma applaud, Robinson.
As a new member this won't mean a great deal to you, but - please - take it as a compliment.
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Muchas gracias.
I was trying to find details about the man I mentioned who had gender reassignment after his marriage broke up and then wanted to change back. The documentary on TV was a good many years ago & was heartbreaking but I had memory that he was British but Iranian born or of middle eastern origin, very rich, and did a search. I found him, sorry for it being Daily Mail articles. He'd moved on from the documentary I saw which was few years earlier.
When I saw it he was a broken man and I found it terribly sad and thought he had been exploited because he was rich:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1026392/A-British-tycoon-father-man-woman---man---knows-hed-be.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html
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Udayana, I didn't note whether or not the man had his treatment on NHS, presume he did as he was in prison.
No I don't think he should sue but I don't know every fact.
Doctors can only do so much there will always be some who later regret the change however convinced they are at the time that it is right. I read of a case a few years ago of a man who was so heartbroken, depressed and demoralised after his marriage broke up (more to it than that but that was trigger), that he had gender reassignment and later wanted to change back, butcases like those are in the minority.
Maybe there should be more safeguards?
I don't know, but clearly whatever treatment he/she has had has been unsatisfactory, and, presumably, at public expense. I do know that prisoners are often desperate for attention and special treatment.
I don't believe that anyone knows much about such conditions or how to best treat people with them. The psychology of the individual concerned must be a huge factor in any outcome.
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Muchas gracias.
I was trying to find details about the man I mentioned who had gender reassignment after his marriage broke up and then wanted to change back. The documentary on TV was a good many years ago & was heartbreaking but I had memory that he was British but Iranian born or of middle eastern origin, very rich, and did a search. I found him, sorry for it being Daily Mail articles. He'd moved on from the documentary I saw which was few years earlier.
When I saw it he was a broken man and I found it terribly sad and thought he had been exploited because he was rich:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1026392/A-British-tycoon-father-man-woman---man---knows-hed-be.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html
Indeed, a sad case. but tends to confirm my view that most misery is self-inflicted.
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His was but there were people only too happy to exploit him. I wonderwhere he is at now as both the above articles are a few years old. The documentary was twelve or thirteen years ago and he was originally an Iraqi, not Iranian, but I remembered everything else. It was terribly sad.
This is the latest I've found about the man: https://zagria.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/charles-kane-1960-executive.html#.WNLONfnyjIU
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I wish it to be known it was never my intention to offend anyone . If I have, please accept my most sincere apologies.
Walter.
Hopefully Trent will see your post and decide to stick around.
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Where did I say you were one of the bad guys, are you leaving the forum?
I look in once in a while - but to all intents and purposes I am no longer taking part in any (in a lot of cases - so-called) discussions and I did post that I was leaving some time ago and at least one member managed to notice the post.
You specifically posted to bemoan TV's leaving as he is one of the good guys - you obviously didn't even notice my similar post - hence I must not be one of the good guys!
I do however wish you Bright Blessings, Love and Light and hope that the Old Ones will watch over you and yours, always.
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I wondered the same, floo. Can't see how Owlswing fits into all this. Looking at his posts he is very angry all the time so maybe picks up on things that aren't directed at him.
Agree with you that Anchor is very kind; we'd all do well to emulate him.
Try being the only member of a religious path that the Christian fundmentalists on this forum find totally unacceptable; if you can remain calm you are, I am willing to concede, a better man than I!
I regret that my withdrawal leavesd the Lady Rhiannon as the only posting Pagan on the Forum. But then again she is a far better person all round than I.
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There aren't that many Christian fundies on here, from what I've seen. More a cross section and plenty of atheists.
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There aren't that many Christian fundies on here, from what I've seen. More a cross section and plenty of atheists.
I suggest that if yiou are interested look back over the history - but then again your defiinition of Christian fundies may be different to mine
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I thought you had left the forum Owlswing? ;D
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I won't look over lots of history Owlswing, no point in that.
I doubt our defintion of 'fundy' differs that much, i don'tlike people who are 'heavy' with their religion & try to convert others. No-one has the right to be rude to you or anyone else because of different beliefs.
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If by 'fundie' does that mean that I accwept the fundamental truths of the Christian faith - aGod crucified and risen in the ultimate gesture of redeeming love, then, hey, I'm a fundie! Though if you mean a loudmouth who can be extremely unpleasant when sharing his faith and ramming it down their throat wirh an iron KJV, then, hopefully I'm not guilty.....
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We have the right to condemn the extreme theists who condemn the rest of us to burn in hell because we don't see it their way. There have been a number of those sad creeps over the years! >:(
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If by 'fundie' does that mean that I accwept the fundamental truths of the Christian faith - aGod crucified and risen in the ultimate gesture of redeeming love, then, hey, I'm a fundie! Though if you mean a loudmouth who can be extremely unpleasant when sharing his faith and ramming it down their throat wirh an iron KJV, then, hopefully I'm not guilty.....
That is good post.
We have the right to condemn the extreme theists who condemn the rest of us to burn in hell because we don't see it their way. There have been a number of those sad creeps over the years! >:(
I don't like people like that either Floo but haven't seen any here. Don't think they'd last long if they did join.
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A quote from Adrian Plass.....what John 3, 3 does not say. "Verily I say unto thee; no man may enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is a bigoted, narrow minded git." (From "Bacon Sandwiches and Salvation") Works for me!
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That is good post.
I don't like people like that either Floo but haven't seen any here. Don't think they'd last long if they did join.
You haven't been on this forum long enough to make that statement! There have been several hellfire theists who have posted on R&E for quite a while.
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I'm surprised they're not shouted down but look forward to meeting them,not.
Anchorman's post above yours says it all.
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I'm surprised they're not shouted down but look forward to meeting them,not.
Anchorman's post above yours says it all.
They were shouted down, especially by me. The hellfire garbage spoilt my childhood. :o We used to get it Sunday after Sunday at the unpleasant Pentecostal church I attended. It was re-enforced by my paternal 'born again' grandmother who was a sadistic b*tch. She enjoyed describing the tortures of hell to me from a very young age. I literally danced on her grave when she did us the favour of eventually kicking the bucket at the age of 96, she lasted far too long in the opinion of her family! >:(
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You have hinted at that, it was so wrong.
I odont think anyone like that would last all that long on here frankly. Its difficult enough for posters with moderate faith and Owlswing says he's been attacked for his beliefs.
There;s no excuse for rudeness.
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You have hinted at that, it was so wrong.
I odont think anyone like that would last all that long on here frankly. Its difficult enough for posters with moderate faith and Owlswing says he's been attacked for his beliefs.
There;s no excuse for rudeness.
You are wrong in your assumption about them not lasting a long time, some would still be around today, no doubt, if they hadn't had their marching orders!
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You are wrong in your assumption about them not lasting a long time, some would still be around today, no doubt, if they hadn't had their marching orders!
It should be noted that people are not banned because they say people are going to burn in hell.
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It should be noted that people are not banned because they say people are going to burn in hell.
True. However that crazy garbage can affect their behaviour as many of them believe in the 'once 'saved' always saved' mantra, they reckon they will go to heaven however bad they are thereafter. In real life I have known several people who thought like that, it didn't make them nice to know that is for sure.
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Forums are not real life. Posters say a lot of horrible things that they wouldn't say in person. I believe what you say about some posters on here being like that but they must be few and far between.
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Forums are not real life. Posters say a lot of horrible things that they wouldn't say in person. I believe what you say about some posters on here being like that but they must be few and far between.
Robinson if you had been on this forum since its inception in 2011 you might have a different view.
Many of us used to post on the BBC forum,; this one was started when closure was looming.
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I know floo but they cannot all be here now & we have to live in the here and now.
A forum I joined briefly years ago was difficult for me, it no longer exists and was an off shoot of Charisma magazine. There were endless sermons written by one person whose name I;forget now, held in high esteem. Most posters were American & i hadn'tcome across people like that. I didn't post much and then faded away.
(One thing that was funny when i joined was people kept talking about vets,that they were vets or had family who were vets & i thought there must be an American Crhristian Veterinarian Association to which they belonged. Didn'tcotton on until later they meant military veterans.)
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I don't think we have any of those who seem to enjoy tales of burning forever on the board. I don't think we have ever had that many. And on the BBC, it was harsher modding so i don't think much was allowed.
Anyway, gender reassignment!!! Ad_o wants people treated by psychiatric means (which of course gender reassignment involves) but no gender reassignment at, even less on the NHs and unimaginably much less the NHS in prison. Any others have thoughts?
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I don't think we have any of those who seem to enjoy tales of burning forever on the board. I don't think we have ever had that many. And on the BBC, it was harsher modding so i don't think much was allowed.
Anyway, gender reassignment!!! Ad_o wants people treated by psychiatric means (which of course gender reassignment involves) but no gender reassignment at, even less on the NHs and unimaginably much less the NHS in prison. Any others have thoughts?
We certainly have had posters who threatened others with burning in hell! They seemed to take pleasure at the prospect.
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We certainly have had posters who threatened others with burning in hell! They seemed to take pleasure at the prospect.
Didn't say there had been none so irrelevant.
Doubly so to gender reassignment. What are your thoughts on that?
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One poster who is still posts on this forum, from time to time, takes a delight in condemning me to a nasty hell! ;D
If a person genuinely feel they are born into the wrong body, they shouldn't be condemned for wishing to have a gender reassignment.
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One poster who is still posts on this forum, from time to time, takes a delight in condemning me to a nasty hell! ;D
If a person genuinely feel they are born into the wrong body, they shouldn't be condemned for wishing to have a gender reassignment.
I don't think anyone has stated that they want to condemn anyone, the question is what to do about it? Do we support gender reassignment? Do you think it should take place on the NHS? Do you think prisoners should be able to have gender reassignment paid for on the NHS? Does it matter what they were convicted of?
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I don't think we have any of those who seem to enjoy tales of burning forever on the board. I don't think we have ever had that many. And on the BBC, it was harsher modding so i don't think much was allowed.
Anyway, gender reassignment!!! Ad_o wants people treated by psychiatric means (which of course gender reassignment involves) but no gender reassignment at, even less on the NHs and unimaginably much less the NHS in prison. Any others have thoughts?
His position seems contradictory. He approves of psychiatric treatment, but only if the psychiatrists agree with him. I think gender clinics are usually staffed by psychiatrists, along with others, and they seem to agree that transitioning offers a good outcome for some people, and by that, they mean reduced depression and suicidal thoughts. But not all people will be offered hormone blocking and/or surgery, and there is often a 'wait and watch' strategy.
But then ad-O's objections seem to be moral and religious, so somehow trans people should be re-educated?
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I don't think anyone has stated that they want to condemn anyone, the question is what to do about it? Do we support gender reassignment? Do you think it should take place on the NHS? Do you think prisoners should be able to have gender reassignment paid for on the NHS? Does it matter what they were convicted of?
I don't think it should take place on the NHS as it is strapped for cash at present.
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His position seems contradictory. He approves of psychiatric treatment, but only if the psychiatrists agree with him. I think gender clinics are usually staffed by psychiatrists, along with others, and they seem to agree that transitioning offers a good outcome for some people, and by that, they mean reduced depression and suicidal thoughts. But not all people will be offered hormone blocking and/or surgery, and there is often a 'wait and watch' strategy.
But then ad-O's objections seem to be moral and religious, so somehow trans people should be re-educated?
To be fair to ad_o, he seems to be approaching it that all gender reassignment is a risk involving physical treatment that is not 'necessary'. So his idea would be, we are born physically the way we are and we apply certain definitions of functionally fine. If someone felt that at 2 legs, they had been born with one leg 'too many' we would almost certainly not approve of 'legectomy' on the NHS.
Having asked him what sort of psychiatric help, he means, without an answer I would be guessing but to make the leg issue more likely, I think he is arguing that this is a form of body dysmorphia similar to anorexia.
Also I see we have two cases of those having gone through gender reassignment subsequently thinking it was a mistake. I think ad_o would make the further point here that certainty on this, I.e. it was the 'right' thing is impossible so all such physical intervention is 'unnecessary'.
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I don't think it should take place on the NHS as it is strapped for cash at present.
So in the cases in the OP, you and ad_o agree that it shouldn't happen? Or could a prisoner paying for it out of their own money be allowed to? And if so, which prison should they be in? And does it matter what they were convicted of?
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I think doctors and gender clinics see a very wide range of people with gender discomfort and distress, and many people like this will not go on to transitioning. However, some people experience intense distress, which can lead to suicide. The NHS is duty bound to alleviate this, isn't it? By all accounts, transitioning works for many people, that is, their distress is reduced a lot.
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So in the cases in the OP, you and ad_o agree that it shouldn't happen? Or could a prisoner paying for it out of their own money be allowed to? And if so, which prison should they be in? And does it matter what they were convicted of?
They should not be permitted to have gender assignment whilst serving a sentence in prison, for whatever reason. As I said I don't think anyone should get it on the NHS whilst it is so strapped for cash.
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They should not be permitted to have gender assignment whilst serving a sentence in prison, for whatever reason. As I said I don't think anyone should get it on the NHS whilst it is so strapped for cash.
Even if they pay for it? And even if doctors thinkit makes them likely to commit suicide? So your position is that people outside of prison can pay for gender assignment but no one else can have it, even if their doctors think it would stop suicide?
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Even if they pay for it? And even if doctors thinkit makes them likely to commit suicide? So your position is that people outside of prison can pay for gender assignment but no one else can have it, even if their doctors think it would stop suicide?
If a prisoner wishes to commit suicide, that is one less baddy in the world.
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You might as well say that dyslexia shouldn't be treated on the NHS, or for that matter, depression, anxiety, and so on.
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To be fair to ad_o, he seems to be approaching it that all gender reassignment is a risk involving physical treatment that is not 'necessary'. So his idea would be, we are born physically the way we are and we apply certain definitions of functionally fine. If someone felt that at 2 legs, they had been born with one leg 'too many' we would almost certainly not approve of 'legectomy' on the NHS.
Having asked him what sort of psychiatric help, he means, without an answer I would be guessing but to make the leg issue more likely, I think he is arguing that this is a form of body dysmorphia similar to anorexia.
Also I see we have two cases of those having gone through gender reassignment subsequently thinking it was a mistake. I think ad_o would make the further point here that certainty on this, I.e. it was the 'right' thing is impossible so all such physical intervention is 'unnecessary'.
In a nut shell!
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If a prisoner wishes to commit suicide, that is one less baddy in the world.
I note the avoidance of the question and the bleak view that if someone is in prison for not paying their TV licence, you seem to rejoice in their death
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You might as well say that dyslexia shouldn't be treated on the NHS, or for that matter, depression, anxiety, and so on.
Is dyslexia on the NHS. My daughter and grandson have it, they certainly haven't received treatment for it.
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I note the avoidance of the question and the bleak view that if someone is in prison for not paying their TV licence, you seem to rejoice in their death
Do you go to prison for not paying your TV licence? I doubt it!
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Is dyslexia on the NHS. My daughter and grandson have it, they certainly haven't received treatment for it.
Sorry, I meant anorexia.
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Do you go to prison for not paying your TV licence? I doubt it!
Then you would be wrong. But why would you care, you think such people's suicide would be fine.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/29/bbc-licence-fee_n_4163939.html
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Then you would be wrong. But why would you care, you think such people's suicide would be fine.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/29/bbc-licence-fee_n_4163939.html
Have any licence fee evaders attempted suicide in prison?
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Have any licence fee evaders attempted suicide in prison?
You defined people in prison as baddies and that their suicide is a good thing.
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You defined people in prison as baddies and that their suicide is a good thing.
I was rather OTT, :-[ but where paedophiles, murderers and other perpetrators of very serious crimes are concerned, the world is certainly better off without them polluting it.
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I was rather OTT, :-[ but where paedophiles, murderers and other perpetrators of very serious crimes are concerned, the world is certainly better off without them polluting it.
So you get to decide which people are bad and who are bad fire very. Mmm how godlike!
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So you get to decide which people are bad and who are bad fire very. Mmm how godlike!
YAWN!
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YAWN!
Evasion noted.
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Is dyslexia on the NHS. My daughter and grandson have it, they certainly haven't received treatment for it.
Dyslexia isn't an illness. Dyslexics have to interpret words in a different way to the rest of us & are usually of above average intelligence. It's well recognised now and there are degrees of dyslexia.Teachers are trained how to help people with this difference.
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The article shows that non-payment of fines incurred for not paying a TV licence can result in a custodial sentence. Ridiculous when prisons are overflowing already! If a person cannot afford a licence the chances are they can't afford fines.
Many people attempt suicide in prison floo,some succeed. Young offenders are particularly vulnerable and see suicide as the only way out. Not everyone in prison is a dangerous criminal and they are frequently bullied and attacked by those who are.You can't seriously be glad to hear of these people committing suicide,might not care about a serial killer but not some poor soul who has made a mistake!
So I would be glad for anything that relieves fear and tension, also it makes life smoother for the staff.
Speaking specifically about genfera reassignment, it's a long process. I'dtrust the NHS guidelines more than the private ones. It's possible to have part private and part NHS, like paying for consultations & some investigations then the consultant put them on their NHS list for surgery.
Chances are if a prisoner starts the process whilst in prison they would be released before surgery.
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Yes, it is a gradual treatment. It's not as if a guy pops along to the doctor and says, I feel like a woman, and the doctor says, right, here are some hormone blockers, and we can book you in for surgery next month. It takes years, partly to monitor how serious the person is, and how it manifests itself. I think in fact, that many people never reach the stage of surgery, but are able to adapt in different ways.
It does raise many interesting questions about sex and gender, and if they are fixed biologically, or socially determined. However, that discussion tends to take about a jillion pages.
I forgot to say that there are also people who see themselves as genderqueer or genderfluid, and I doubt if they ever see a doctor, although they may see therapists and counsellors. (I used to work with Pink Therapy who deal with LGBT+ people).
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"I think in fact, that many people never reach the stage of surgery, but are able to adapt in different ways."
Yes they certainly do.
It's right that gender reassignment it's a long process and multidisciplinary. It's so drastic!
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It reminds me that the old slogan for dealing with trans people, especially children, was 'insistent, consistent, persistent'. In other words, this is when you take it seriously, and not as a passing phase, when kids are icp. Many children like to experiment with gender stuff, and there are also all kinds of gender variations, which are not trans. I don't know whether this slogan is still used or not. Another slogan was that gender doesn't lie between the legs, but between the ears, but this gets us into all the controversy about biology, psychology, and social effects.