Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Sriram on April 05, 2017, 06:30:26 AM
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Hi everyone,
It is said that about 25% of Christians today believe in reincarnation.
Origen, a early church father, is said to have believed in reincarnation and some passages in the bible itself are said to indicate reincarnation. Some texts like the Gospel of Thomas, recovered at the Nag Hammadi site, seem to refer to reincarnation. Kabbalists and some others in Judaism seem to believe in reincarnation. Some Christians who had NDE's have talked of people waiting for reincarnation in the after-life.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html
Is reincarnation the forgotten doctrine in Christianity?
Any views?
Sriram
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I'm not sure Origen believed in reincarnation rather that the soul pre-existed the body. Origen did have some funny views though, which is why he was posthumously anathematised by the Church.
I don't think reincarnation is held by anyone except on the fringes, new agers and semi-buddhists. It's not anywhere in the scriptures.
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Hi everyone,
It is said that about 25% of Christians today believe in reincarnation.
Origen, a early church father, is said to have believed in reincarnation and some passages in the bible itself are said to indicate reincarnation. Some texts like the Gospel of Thomas, recovered at the Nag Hammadi site, seem to refer to reincarnation. Kabbalists and some others in Judaism seem to believe in reincarnation. Some Christians who had NDE's have talked of people waiting for reincarnation in the after-life.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html
Is reincarnation the forgotten doctrine in Christianity?
Any views?
Sriram
It is a point of contradiction with the doctrine of salvation since it depends on self improvement and karma which is contrary to the idea of forgiveness and atonement in Christianity.
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The Gnostic literature was an amalgum of Greek, Persian and Christuian mysticism and written far later than any 'accepted' csnonical Scripture and is therefore not part of any mainstream Christian thought process.
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Not that I really believe in reincarnation, but occasionally I have wondered if the sense of deja vu one gets occasionally, when in a situation or place you have never been before, could indicate a previous life.
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Me too floo. I don't really believe in reincarnation tho' it's a nice thought, especially if your life has been a terrible struggle. Christians believe in spiritual rebirth.I've heard some Christians say that reincarnation is not incompatible with Christianity, Anchor says otherwise. I say, it's up to you what you believe, anything's possible.
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I cannot see any point where the Christian doctrine of eternal life through Christ Jesus is compatable with reincarnation.
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I cannot see any point where the Christian doctrine of eternal life through Christ Jesus is compatable with reincarnation.
But that is only a unsupportable idea like reincarnation.
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But that is only a unsupportable idea like reincarnation.
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The O/P was regarding a doctrine which is not part of the Christian faith. Should you wish to discuss the doctrine of salvation through grace, then there are other threads for that purpose.
Failing that, can you provide any scriptural basis which positively affirms the idea of reincarnation?
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But that is only a unsupportable idea like reincarnation.
No it's a coherent position.
You take different ideas and compare and look for compatibility.
In some sense both the premises of Christianity and Hinduism are reasonable but reasonableness doesn't guarantee correctness.
Aren't you being a bit incontinent with your antireligious statements?
The great world views are IMHO variations of Abrahamic monotheism, Monism and Philosophical naturalism.
Antitheistic ''youaintseenme-ism'' is not a great world view.
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I'm not sure Origen believed in reincarnation rather that the soul pre-existed the body. Origen did have some funny views though, which is why he was posthumously anathematised by the Church.
I don't think reincarnation is held by anyone except on the fringes, new agers and semi-buddhists. It's not anywhere in the scriptures.
I'd be interested to hear the Christian take on these notorious scriptures then:
"Behold, I will send you Eli'jah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.
And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse"
Malachi 4: 5,6
" And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Eli'jah must come?" He replied, "Eli'jah does come, and he is to restore all things;
but I tell you that Eli'jah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands."
Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist."
Matt 17: 10-13
" And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No."
"They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?"
John 1: 21 &25
(The last one, of course, being a contradiction of what Jesus is supposed to have said in the previous quote.)
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It is a point of contradiction with the doctrine of salvation since it depends on self improvement and karma which is contrary to the idea of forgiveness and atonement in Christianity.
The contraries exist within Christianity itself: atonement being mainly Pauline*, and the idea of "as you sow, so shall you reap" being explicit elsewhere.
*Marks gospel (the earliest, of course) says nothing more than "and to give his life as a ransom for many", which almost sounds like an afterthought, or a sop to the Paulinists.
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Some thoughts......
1. Certain passages in the bible seem to indicate that people can be reborn as some one else.....Elijah as John the Baptist, for example.
2. Early church fathers such as Origen seem to have believed in reincarnation.
3. Gilgul is a Jewish concept (in the Kabbala) that refers to reincarnation. So certain sects of Judaism believe in reincarnation. Maybe Jesus did too.
4. At the Council of Nicea (according to the OP article) it was decided to eliminate all ideas of preexistence and reincarnation and stick to the 'faith' idea.
5. Some western philosophers like Pythagoras believed in reincarnation.
In my opinion, reincarnation as a concept is more just and universal than faith based salvation. Reincarnation implies that life is about self development and everyone eventually attains salvation and freedom. No exceptions. Like children in school moving up little by little and eventually passing out. It is seen as a natural law of nature rather than as a whimsical decision by a God.
I believe that more and more Christians are beginning to accept reincarnation as a meaningful way of understanding life. The idea of growth and development in life through varied experiences in different lifetimes is positive and motivating. Life ceases to be unjust and random. Seen with the concept of Karma, reincarnation could also explain why there is so much difference in circumstances of different people in the world.
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It's a very attractive belief Sririam and I admit that I would like to believe it.I need to open myself up more to understand, am certainly not prepared to rule out reincarnation. What Dicky has said is food for thought.
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No it's a coherent position.
You take different ideas and compare and look for compatibility.
In some sense both the premises of Christianity and Hinduism are reasonable but reasonableness doesn't guarantee correctness.
Aren't you being a bit incontinent with your antireligious statements?
The great world views are IMHO variations of Abrahamic monotheism, Monism and Philosophical naturalism.
Antitheistic ''youaintseenme-ism'' is not a great world view.
It is no more coherent than reincarnation.
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I'd be interested to hear the Christian take on these notorious scriptures then:
"Behold, I will send you Eli'jah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.
And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse"
Malachi 4: 5,6
" And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Eli'jah must come?" He replied, "Eli'jah does come, and he is to restore all things;
but I tell you that Eli'jah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands."
Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist."
Matt 17: 10-13
" And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No."
"They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?"
John 1: 21 &25
(The last one, of course, being a contradiction of what Jesus is supposed to have said in the previous quote.)
Elijah is just a type, a figure.
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It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment. Hebrews 9:27
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Not that I really believe in reincarnation, but occasionally I have wondered if the sense of deja vu one gets occasionally, when in a situation or place you have never been before, could indicate a previous life.
Floo,
You once had a rather unique experience in terms of sudden healing of your ailment. You didn't pursue that direction of experiences and take it further. You preferred to dismiss it as 'probably having some natural explanation' and went back to mundane things.
If you had investigated your healing further or tried to repeat it for similar ailments....you might have discovered something very interesting about life.
Merely sitting around wondering about things doesn't help. One should be willing to face the unknown and experience seemingly extraordinary things.
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Not that I really believe in reincarnation, but occasionally I have wondered if the sense of deja vu one gets occasionally, when in a situation or place you have never been before, could indicate a previous life.
Deja vu can be explained simply as an artefact of the way conscious experience is produced, there being a multiple intermediate drafts as novel sensory input is tested and refined against memory and expectation; just occasionally we remember one of those intermediate drafts so it feels like it has happened before. No need for fantastic explanations like reincarnation which make no sense given our current knowledge base about the nature of life. In fact, occasional deja vu is considered a healthy symptom, showing your subliminal preconscious processes are still working.
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It's a very attractive belief Sririam and I admit that I would like to believe it.I need to open myself up more to understand, am certainly not prepared to rule out reincarnation. What Dicky has said is food for thought.
Reincarnation may be possible in far future thanks to medical science. Head transplants for instance would be a defacto form of reincarnation and the first attempt at that is not far off. Further ahead, more in the realms of science fiction, we may be able to capture a person in digital form and store him/her on a cloud server to be reincarnated into a suitable synthetic body. Like everything else, a 'person' can be viewed as an information product eventually. The idea that this already happens, naturally, is wishful whacko imo, it would be a massively complex process.
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It's a very attractive belief Sririam and I admit that I would like to believe it.I need to open myself up more to understand, am certainly not prepared to rule out reincarnation. What Dicky has said is food for thought.
Robinson,
1. Reincarnation balances out many of the apparent inequalities that we see everyday.
2. It sets a system by which people can experience varied situations and develop. It enables people to grow and learn over several lifetimes.
3. It enables moral issues to be sorted out and provides a framework for Karma to get neutralized.
4. The concept of reincarnation does not create a fundamental distinction of 'good people' and 'bad people'. It thinks of all people as having base animal tendencies of selfishness, competitiveness, insecurities... to begin with. As they grow, they shed these tendencies and acquire divine qualities.
5. It is not a religious concept but a philosophical one (though it forms the basis of Hinduism).
6. Some people like Ian Stevenson have done fairly extensive research on reincarnation and have found some evidence (even in Muslim countries where reincarnation is not a accepted religious concept). It is of course extremely difficult to find conclusive evidence in such matters.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/ian-stevensone28099s-case-for-the-afterlife-are-we-e28098skepticse28099-really-just-cynics/
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2016/12/REI35.pdf
Cheers.
Sriram
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Reincarnation may be possible in far future thanks to medical science. Head transplants for instance would be a defacto form of reincarnation and the first attempt at that is not far off. Further ahead, more in the realms of science fiction, we may be able to capture a person in digital form and store him/her on a cloud server to be reincarnated into a suitable synthetic body. Like everything else, a 'person' can be viewed as an information product eventually. The idea that this already happens, naturally, is wishful whacko imo, it would be a massively complex process.
torridon,
If we only accept the rather obvious idea of an independent Self or Subject ...nothing is more simple than reincarnation!!!!
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torridon,
If we only accept the rather obvious idea of an independent Self or Subject ...nothing is more simple than reincarnation!!!!
Accepting that means ignoring all that we have discovered to date through study and research. What point is there in education if our attitude is to ignore what we have learned ?
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Accepting that means ignoring all that we have discovered to date through study and research. What point is there in education if our attitude is to ignore what we have learned ?
How exactly do our findings conflict with the idea of an independent Self or Subject or Consciousness?!!
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How exactly do our findings conflict with the idea of an independent Self or Subject or Consciousness?!!
No surgeon has ever opened a body up and found a self inside. No neuroscientist has ever discovered a master neuron in the brain, and the very idea is self-defeating, if you can excuse the awful pun. There is no ontological basis for a self, rather the feeling of selfhood is a by-product of a fully functioning working brain; all you need to do is go to sleep and the self evaporates. When we wake up stored memories recover our sense of selfhood to where it left off, a bit like your laptop restores your apps following hibernation or sleep.
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No surgeon has ever opened a body up and found a self inside. No neuroscientist has ever discovered a master neuron in the brain, and the very idea is self-defeating, if you can excuse the awful pun. There is no ontological basis for a self, rather the feeling of selfhood is a by-product of a fully functioning working brain; all you need to do is go to sleep and the self evaporates. When we wake up stored memories recover our sense of selfhood to where it left off, a bit like your laptop restores your apps following hibernation or sleep.
Ah...... a gentleman reductionist on an early morning saunter through the philosophical morning rendering a poetic paeon to frosty reductionism.
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Ah...... a gentleman reductionist on an early morning saunter through the philosophical morning rendering a poetic paeon to frosty reductionism.
;D ;D very nice Vlad
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Robinson,
1. Reincarnation balances out many of the apparent inequalities that we see everyday.
2. It sets a system by which people can experience varied situations and develop. It enables people to grow and learn over several lifetimes.
3. It enables moral issues to be sorted out and provides a framework for Karma to get neutralized.
4. The concept of reincarnation does not create a fundamental distinction of 'good people' and 'bad people'. It thinks of all people as having base animal tendencies of selfishness, competitiveness, insecurities... to begin with. As they grow, they shed these tendencies and acquire divine qualities.
5. It is not a religious concept but a philosophical one (though it forms the basis of Hinduism).
6. Some people like Ian Stevenson have done fairly extensive research on reincarnation and have found some evidence (even in Muslim countries where reincarnation is not a accepted religious concept). It is of course extremely difficult to find conclusive evidence in such matters.
Hi Sriram.
Just a few observations.
Point 1. This is obviously better than the bleak and cruel atheist theory that there is no real justice. However IMO there is the kind of danger of inaction and fatalism in it. Also it is an exercise in moral accountancy which seems to rule out mercy and forgiveness.
Point 2. How many reincarnations are we supposed to have had? You seem to be suggesting a system where the human race should be growing and developing. To me that is an overoptimistic assessment of our predicament.
Point3. Where and how are moral issues being sorted out? An accusation levelled at Christianity is how can its claim that the devil was defeated at the crucifixion be true. But Christians can always turn round and talk about fulfilment at the second coming, personal transformation and the old adage ''Christianity hasn't failed it just hasn't been tried''. Karma though seems like an inexorable fixture and rule of the universe and we would expect to be able to see growth and improvement.
Point4 I do like philosophy and I do see where it is coming from although I cant support it.
Feel free to tear my points down philosophically and thanks for such a succinct and user friendly exposition.
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I'm posting to support everything that torridon says. How anyone can still believe in reincarnation in this day and age is really beyond belief. It's a fun idea, but that's where it should stay- in the world of make believe.
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Floo,
You once had a rather unique experience in terms of sudden healing of your ailment. You didn't pursue that direction of experiences and take it further. You preferred to dismiss it as 'probably having some natural explanation' and went back to mundane things.
If you had investigated your healing further or tried to repeat it for similar ailments....you might have discovered something very interesting about life.
Merely sitting around wondering about things doesn't help. One should be willing to face the unknown and experience seemingly extraordinary things.
I believe spontaneous healing can occur occasionally, but I don't think it is of supernatural origin.
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I'm posting to support everything that torridon says. How anyone can still believe in reincarnation in this day and age is really beyond belief. It's a fun idea, but that's where it should stay- in the world of make believe.
This day and age?
Didn't you mean to say 'How anyone can still believe in reincarnation in Chipping Sodbury is really beyond belief''?
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I couldn't care less how many reincarnations on 'might' have had. For the Christian, the answer is very simple. As 2 Corrie quoted; NONE. Well, that's the end of the thread on the Christian topic, then......
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I couldn't care less how many reincarnations on 'might' have had. For the Christian, the answer is very simple. As 2 Corrie quoted; NONE. Well, that's the end of the thread on the Christian topic, then......
Are you having a pop at me?
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Are you having a pop at me?
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Nope.
But the thread's on the Christian topic - and I've yet to see a convincing argument which links this concept with Christianity!
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Nope.
But the thread's on the Christian topic - and I've yet to see a convincing argument which links this concept with Christianity!
Agreed.
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I have given the link in the OP that connects reincarnation with Christianity. There are several connections between the two. Some Christians may not consider it as relevant because they believe in a faith based theology....which is a different matter altogether.
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(Nope.)
But the thread's on the Christian topic - and I've yet to see a convincing argument which links this concept with Christianity!
quote author=Emergence-The musical link=topic=13696.msg668174#msg668174 date=1491465442]
Agreed.
[/quote]
It has opened up interesting discussion. Even if we don't believe in reincarnation ornot in the same way as a Hindu, we can find points of contact. A religious discussion forum is supposed to do that leading to greater knowledge and understanding. So far its a courteous thread with interested posters.
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I have given the link in the OP that connects reincarnation with Christianity. There are several connections between the two. Some Christians may not consider it as relevant because they believe in a faith based theology....which is a different matter altogether.
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All Christians - that is all who claim Christ as Lord, believe in a faith based theology. They also accept Him as the one way to eternity.
He never mentioned reincarnation - not once.
If He never mentioned it, then it simply plays no part in any doctrine which is remotely Christian.
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John 3:1-21 we are told we must be born again.
That means spiritually, becoming a new creation.
Still I think there are comparisons.
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John 3:1-21 we are told we must be born again.
That means spiritually, becoming a new creation.
Still I think there are comparisons.
I don't think that is the same as reincarnation. To be incarnated means to be enbodied. Reincarnation is about the same person born into a new body, whereas Christian salvation is about transformation of the person within; bodies don't really come into it either in this life or in heaven.
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I don't think that is the same as reincarnation. To be incarnated means to be enbodied. Reincarnation is about the same person born into a new body, whereas Christian salvation is about transformation of the person within; bodies don't really come into it either in this life or in heaven.
Not sure that's true
since there is talk in the bible of body mind and spirit, being, the body as temple, resurrection bodies.
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The second resurrection is a resurrection of the body.
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The second resurrection is a resurrection of the body.
Whatever that means!
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Whatever that means!
It means exactly what it says.
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John 3:1-21 we are told we must be born again.
That means spiritually, becoming a new creation.
Still I think there are comparisons.
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Sorry, Robinson;
If you take that scripture in context, it talks of spiritual rebirth - in other words, the person has already popped into the world before he/she accepts Christ for who He is and is reborn spiritually.
Reincarnation is totally didfferent.
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I believe spontaneous healing can occur occasionally, but I don't think it is of supernatural origin.
Who said anything about supernatural? I am only saying that you could have pursued it further since it was an out of the ordinary experience.
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No surgeon has ever opened a body up and found a self inside. No neuroscientist has ever discovered a master neuron in the brain, and the very idea is self-defeating, if you can excuse the awful pun. There is no ontological basis for a self, rather the feeling of selfhood is a by-product of a fully functioning working brain; all you need to do is go to sleep and the self evaporates. When we wake up stored memories recover our sense of selfhood to where it left off, a bit like your laptop restores your apps following hibernation or sleep.
A laptop restores the apps...but to whom? To an User who uses these apps for a purpose. A laptop does not do anything for itself.
Similarly, even when we are in deep sleep, we wake up having experienced the deep sleep and the nothingness. That is the Self.
Without a Subject there can be no experience.
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Hi Sriram.
Just a few observations.
Point 1. This is obviously better than the bleak and cruel atheist theory that there is no real justice. However IMO there is the kind of danger of inaction and fatalism in it. Also it is an exercise in moral accountancy which seems to rule out mercy and forgiveness.
Point 2. How many reincarnations are we supposed to have had? You seem to be suggesting a system where the human race should be growing and developing. To me that is an overoptimistic assessment of our predicament.
Point3. Where and how are moral issues being sorted out? An accusation levelled at Christianity is how can its claim that the devil was defeated at the crucifixion be true. But Christians can always turn round and talk about fulfilment at the second coming, personal transformation and the old adage ''Christianity hasn't failed it just hasn't been tried''. Karma though seems like an inexorable fixture and rule of the universe and we would expect to be able to see growth and improvement.
Point4 I do like philosophy and I do see where it is coming from although I cant support it.
Feel free to tear my points down philosophically and thanks for such a succinct and user friendly exposition.
Hi Emergence,
1. Karma means justice for all in proportion to their karma. It is a natural law...like light bodies float in water and heavy bodies sink. It is a slow process of learning and development.
2. No one can say how many incarnations one has had. It would be several even as humans. We must remember that animals are also involved in the life spectrum. I agree there could be many questions that have no answers. But I believe that reincarnation and Karma have a better score than a one life time-eternal punishment philosophy or a random chance theory.
3. This is about individual development and it is not necessary to see major changes in society as a whole. Even though individual children develop and move up from class to class and graduate out...the school as a whole always remains more or less the same.
Cheers.
Sriram
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John 3:1-21 we are told we must be born again.
That means spiritually, becoming a new creation.
Still I think there are comparisons.
Hi Robinson,
The idea of being Born Again and becoming a new creation is the same as eliminating the Lower Self and realizing ones Higher Self, that I have written about many times. This process of being born again or becoming the Higher self happens very slowly through repeated reincarnations.
The process of reincarnation and Karma lead to individuals recognizing their real divine nature and eliminating their lower nature. This is Self Realization or Knowing Oneself. It cannot possibly happen in one life time.
How could Hitler for example, ever be Born Again in the same life time? It would take several reincarnations for him to develop and reach a stage where he can recognize the divinity within himself. Gandhi or Mother Teresa having developed already may do it in this one life time itself or maybe even they would have to develop further!
Cheers.
Sriram
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Is reincarnation the forgotten doctrine in Christianity?
Any views?
Not in my opinion Sriram. I agree with this from earlier:
It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment. Hebrews 9:27
The natural birth occurs only once, and the spiritual birth occurs only once.
Perhaps another biblical angle is e.g 2 Corinthians 5 v 17:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
or from Ephesians 2:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
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Elijah is just a type, a figure.
ad-orientem
My interest in these matters is, of course, simply academic. However, chapter 17 of Matthew, from which one of my quotes comes, begins with the episode on the mountain of The Transfiguration, where Jesus is reported as being seen talking to 'Moses and Elijah' (and which in turn provoked the ensuing conversation with Jesus' disciples). Do you believe that in the Transfiguration, Jesus was simply talking to "two types, two figures"?
Strikes me you can make anything you like of these fantastical episodes. John the Baptist had not long been decapitated - maybe it was John as Elijah transfigured on the mountain-top as well? The whole chapter has had numerous explanations foisted on to it, in any case, and some of the traditional ones smack strongly of 'making it up as you go along'.
To return to Sriram's arguments, regarding reincarnation referred to in Christianity. There has been a lot made of supposedly consistent beliefs in Judaism and Christianity. This is certainly not the case. The 'rule' referred to by 2Corrie is death for all, then eternal bliss for some. However, we know that there were reported exceptions - Elijah certainly being one, since he didn't die, but 'was borne up to heaven in a chariot'. If he could be an exception in that instance, maybe he was an exception in the question of his 'reincarnation.'
Just playing with words guys - as most of you are. However, I know that I am.......
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However, we know that there were reported exceptions - Elijah certainly being one, since he didn't die, but 'was borne up to heaven in a chariot'. If he could be an exception in that instance, maybe he was an exception in the question of his 'reincarnation.'
Yes, Elijah was taken up to heaven so didn't die, but that doesn't mean he may not die in the future, so then not in breach of the verse 2Corrie cited.
For example: Elijah could be one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11...
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I'm posting to support everything that torridon says. How anyone can still believe in reincarnation in this day and age is really beyond belief. It's a fun idea, but that's where it should stay- in the world of make believe.
Susan
I'm very much in the disbelieving camp these days, though I gave reincarnation serious thought once. The trouble is, if, for instance, you're born with or develop a crippling disease, and are told that this is because of 'sins in a former life', this is not likely to make much sense to the suffering person if they have absolutely no memory of what 'sins' they are supposed to have committed. This makes nonsense of the whole idea - apart from those extremely dubious cases where some individuals claim to have memories of former lives (Egyptian princes and princesses seem to be high on the list of 'memories'. I'm sure Shirley Maclean thought she was Cleopatra once).
I suppose that even the Christian idea of judgment makes a bit more sense (except a lot of Christians think just having faith gets you off the hook), since you'd be made aware of what you'd done wrong, and you probably had full knowledge of this anyway, if the judgment referred to this life only.
Well, to complicate matters, some Hindus assert "Brahman is the only reincarnator" (everything is One, you see - God is mankind and mankind is also God).
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DU
Good post, thank you. Having posted on JREF for years (it is now International Skeptics), I have read many far better posts and links to explanations of the real, investigated stories behind these apparent reincarnations. There are some which have not been investigated of course, but since enough have, then there is no need to seek anything other than a natural explanation. And that's apart from the total lack of scientific evidence or logic for reincarnation.
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ad-orientem
My interest in these matters is, of course, simply academic. However, chapter 17 of Matthew, from which one of my quotes comes, begins with the episode on the mountain of The Transfiguration, where Jesus is reported as being seen talking to 'Moses and Elijah' (and which in turn provoked the ensuing conversation with Jesus' disciples). Do you believe that in the Transfiguration, Jesus was simply talking to "two types, two figures"?
Strikes me you can make anything you like of these fantastical episodes. John the Baptist had not long been decapitated - maybe it was John as Elijah transfigured on the mountain-top as well? The whole chapter has had numerous explanations foisted on to it, in any case, and some of the traditional ones smack strongly of 'making it up as you go along'.
To return to Sriram's arguments, regarding reincarnation referred to in Christianity. There has been a lot made of supposedly consistent beliefs in Judaism and Christianity. This is certainly not the case. The 'rule' referred to by 2Corrie is death for all, then eternal bliss for some. However, we know that there were reported exceptions - Elijah certainly being one, since he didn't die, but 'was borne up to heaven in a chariot'. If he could be an exception in that instance, maybe he was an exception in the question of his 'reincarnation.'
Just playing with words guys - as most of you are. However, I know that I am.......
Of course Jesus was talking to Elijah and Moses, but they are also figures, with regards to the Transfiguration figures of the Law and the Prophets.
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Of course Jesus was talking to Elijah and Moses, but they are also figures, with regards to the Transfiguration figures of the Law and the Prophets.
"Of course"? Jesus on a mountaintop talking to the long dead Elijah and Moses (who may or may not have existed in any case), but when Jesus adds an explanation to the supposed incident and says that John the Baptist was the Elijah who was prophesied to come again, then Elijah gets reduced to a mere 'type'.
Righto.
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Yes, Elijah was taken up to heaven so didn't die, but that doesn't mean he may not die in the future, so then not in breach of the verse 2Corrie cited.
For example: Elijah could be one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11...
I note your use of the subjunctive and the conditional.
It could be that, as Luther said, the Book of Revelation was neither inspirational nor apostolic. It could be that the incident on the mountain top never occurred. As for Elijah being taken up to 'heaven' in a chariot - I don't need to use a conditional there. It never happened.
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"Of course"? Jesus on a mountaintop talking to the long dead Elijah and Moses (who may or may not have existed in any case), but when Jesus adds an explanation to the supposed incident and says that John the Baptist was the Elijah who was prophesied to come again, then Elijah gets reduced to a mere 'type'.
Righto.
There are lots of figures in the OT, yet that doesn't mean they weren't real. They do not contradict each other, except to the one dimensional mind.
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There are lots of figures in the OT, yet that doesn't mean they weren't real. They do not contradict each other, except to the one dimensional mind.
As for who was real and who were not, we have only the historical method and the findings of archaeology to ascertain the truth with any certainty (by which means we can be fairly certain that Hezekiah existed, for instance). As for the reality of many of the others, it's pretty much a matter of faith.
Likewise, we can be pretty certain that Isaiah of Jerusalem existed, but the Book of Isaiah was written by at least three different prophets/scribes. And there are definite contradictions of belief in that book, depending on which 'Isaiah' you read. There are a number of different 'covenants' in the OT, contradicting each other. The writer of Deuteronomy refutes other writers of the Pentateuch. The person who wrote Numbers 31 obviously had a very different view of God from that of Micah etc.
The one dimensional mind is the one that seeks to impose a spurious unity over all this complexity*.
*I should add that this also applies to people who like to say "The God of the OT is a completely different God from the God of the New" or "The God of the OT is an evil monster etc etc"
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Susan
I'm very much in the disbelieving camp these days, though I gave reincarnation serious thought once. The trouble is, if, for instance, you're born with or develop a crippling disease, and are told that this is because of 'sins in a former life', this is not likely to make much sense to the suffering person if they have absolutely no memory of what 'sins' they are supposed to have committed. This makes nonsense of the whole idea - apart from those extremely dubious cases where some individuals claim to have memories of former lives (Egyptian princes and princesses seem to be high on the list of 'memories'. I'm sure Shirley Maclean thought she was Cleopatra once).
I suppose that even the Christian idea of judgment makes a bit more sense (except a lot of Christians think just having faith gets you off the hook), since you'd be made aware of what you'd done wrong, and you probably had full knowledge of this anyway, if the judgment referred to this life only.
Well, to complicate matters, some Hindus assert "Brahman is the only reincarnator" (everything is One, you see - God is mankind and mankind is also God).
Dicky,
The idea of one life time and one judgement makes a mockery of God and his justice. People are born and live under so many different circumstances, that judging them uniformly based on one life time is clearly inappropriate. How could a mentally retarded child or a disabled person for example, be judged along with others?!
Of course, the only other explanation many people seem to have for life is that of random genetic variation and Natural Selection...which is no explanation at all. It only attempts (if at all) to explain the mechanism of life and not its purpose. Like explaining the mechanisms of a car....without explaining why it exists.
Reincarnation and Karma do leave some questions open, no doubt...but they broadly do explain most aspects of life such as the inequalities in circumstances of different people, the different moral framework and wisdom found in different people, different levels of capabilities in different people...and so on.
The fact that no one is left out of the eventual salvation indicates the fundamental uniformity of the laws. We must remember that they are natural laws and not based on the whims of any superior being. They provide a equal playing field and equal opportunities to develop for everyone.
Besides this, some people as I have indicated above, have found some evidence for reincarnation. It is usually very small children and especially those who have had sudden and violent deaths at a fairly young age...are likely to remember past lives. Adults are not meant to remember their past lives but are expected to move on to higher lessons and not hold on to the past.
The previous life is irrelevant now to our conscious mind....and the essence of the lessons learnt in earlier lives is probably retained at the unconscious level.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Hi everyone,
If reincarnation and Karma are a fact of nature/life, then they will not remain culture based for long. At least some people in other societies also would have come up with the same discovery (like most scientific discoveries) regardless of strong opposition from the majority.
People like Pythagoras and Origen besides others,...do seem to be such bold discoverers. That is why these concepts are relevant to Christianity....and to all other people world wide.
It is time we move towards a common philosophical base for all humanity, explaining all Life in general.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Sriramm #59
Such a plethora of bland assertions!!
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Hi everyone,
If reincarnation and Karma are a fact of nature/life, then they will not remain culture based for long. At least some people in other societies also would have come up with the same discovery (like most scientific discoveries) regardless of strong opposition from the majority.
People like Pythagoras and Origen besides others,...do seem to be such bold discoverers. That is why these concepts are relevant to Christianity....and to all other people world wide.
It is time we move towards a common philosophical base for all humanity, explaining all Life in general.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Sorry, why is it time we moved toward anything?
To ask a Christian to abandon the commands and teaching of the Lord to whom he/she has committed themselves is simply not on.
There is no doctrine of reincarnation in the Gospel, and there never was.
There is no room for compromise.
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As for who was real and who were not, we have only the historical method and the findings of archaeology to ascertain the truth with any certainty (by which means we can be fairly certain that Hezekiah existed, for instance). As for the reality of many of the others, it's pretty much a matter of faith.
Dicky....I have a horrible feeling you are working from the basis that if the method cannot find something there is a shortcoming in History rather than a shortcoming in the method and it's ability to find the history.
Rather like the materialist scientism view of existence which states that if it does not fit in with the methodology then it cannot exist. Whereas the ''cannot exist'' bit is really the faith part.
Am I right.
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Hi everyone,
If reincarnation and Karma are a fact of nature/life, then they will not remain culture based for long. At least some people in other societies also would have come up with the same discovery (like most scientific discoveries) regardless of strong opposition from the majority.
People like Pythagoras and Origen besides others,...do seem to be such bold discoverers. That is why these concepts are relevant to Christianity....and to all other people world wide.
It is time we move towards a common philosophical base for all humanity, explaining all Life in general.
Cheers.
Sriram
I feel you are mistaking Christianity for a form of Hinduism here.
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If reincarnation and Karma are a fact of nature/life, then ....
Unfortunately they aren't .....
It is time we move towards a common philosophical base for all humanity, explaining all Life in general.
Noble aim perhaps. But to entertain beliefs like karma and reincarnation requires one to ignore pretty much the entire body of knowledge we have built up about life over the last few hundred years. That is not a sound footing for a common philosophical base, more an escape from reality into the realms of fantasy.
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Unfortunately they aren't .....
Noble aim perhaps. But to entertain beliefs like karma and reincarnation requires one to ignore pretty much the entire body of knowledge we have built up about life over the last few hundred years. That is not a sound footing for a common philosophical base, more an escape from reality into the realms of fantasy.
Completely disagree. The belief that death is the end can be easily reached by any person anywhere and indeed has history and past form rather than the triumphant result of years of scientific research etc. built up recently since enlightenment times.
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Completely disagree. The belief that death is the end can be easily reached by any person anywhere and indeed has history and past form rather than the triumphant result of years of scientific research etc. built up recently since enlightenment times.
Doesn't make sense. Maybe finger trouble. But whatever you meant to say, I'm sure that the overwhelming evidence from life sciences points out that death of an individual occurs when he/she stops living but life as a process goes on thanks to mechanisms of replication. Replicated individuals bear characteristics of their parents and we have no evidence to suggest newly born individuals being invaded by some previously deceased individual.
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Vlad,
Rather like the materialist scientism view of existence which states that if it does not fit in with the methodology then it cannot exist. Whereas the ''cannot exist'' bit is really the faith part.
Am I right.
No, you're lying. No-one says, "it cannot exist". What they actually say is that there's no cogent reason to think it does exist - a very different matter.
You try this particular lie all over the place. Why?
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Vlad,
No, you're lying. No-one says, "it cannot exist". What they actually say is that there's no cogent reason to think it does exist - a very different matter.
You try this particular lie all over the place. Why?
I'm sorry but you obviously don't understand the meaning of either ''Materialist'' or ''scientism''. I do not say He is doing it i'm asking if he might be.
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Unfortunately they aren't .....
Noble aim perhaps. But to entertain beliefs like karma and reincarnation requires one to ignore pretty much the entire body of knowledge we have built up about life over the last few hundred years. That is not a sound footing for a common philosophical base, more an escape from reality into the realms of fantasy.
torridon,
When I asked you how our scientific findings conflict with the idea of reincarnation and Karma, you said something like....'no doctor during surgery has ever found the Self...and when we sleep we lose consciousness' ....or something like that.
If that is your argument....silence is best!!! :) ;)
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Vlad,
I'm sorry but you obviously don't understand the meaning of either ''Materialist'' or ''scientism''. I do not say He is doing it i'm asking if he might be.
No, you don't - neither materialism nor scientism say that other phenomena "cannot" exist. This is the big lie you cling to as a man clings to a concrete lifebelt. What they actually do is treat the material as a working assumption because claims of the non-material offer no means of investigation.
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Sorry, why is it time we moved toward anything?
To ask a Christian to abandon the commands and teaching of the Lord to whom he/she has committed themselves is simply not on.
There is no doctrine of reincarnation in the Gospel, and there never was.
There is no room for compromise.
Anchorman,
I am not asking Christians to give up their faith in Christ or abandon his teachings. I am only saying that there is no final word on what exactly Jesus taught. The bible was compiled 300 years later with the vested interest of many others at that point of time.
On the other hand, some Jews and early Christians and also certain gospels such as The Gospel of Thomas besides certain words in the official bible itself, seem to indicate a belief in reincarnation (refer link in the OP).
That idea is also more universal in its application than standard biblical ideas and has a stronger philosophical base not just in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism etc. but in Kabbala, gnosticism and Sufi teachings as well.
So...maybe Christianity does have its secret teachings that go beyond standard faith based beliefs. I don't think the possibility can be dismissed outright, rather it needs to be investigated and studied more carefully.
My point is to arrive at a common philosophical base for all people and to keep cultural and traditional influences to the minimum.
Cheers.
Sriram
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torridon,
When I asked you how our scientific findings conflict with the idea of reincarnation and Karma, you said something like....'no doctor during surgery has ever found the Self...and when we sleep we lose consciousness' ....or something like that.
If that is your argument....silence is best!!! :) ;)
Ah, keep any level headed reality away from the party. Don't want no inconvenient things like facts getting in the way, I see .....
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Vlad,
No, you don't - neither materialism nor scientism say that other phenomena "cannot" exist. This is the big lie you cling to as a man clings to a concrete lifebelt. What they actually do is treat the material as a working assumption because claims of the non-material offer no means of investigation.
Yes you said a working assumption that material is all there is. It's the ''all there is'' bit that you are trying to turdpolish into having no philosophical entailment...but it does...and you've been caught out.
There is no mileage on shooting the messenger here or running after him onto every thread metaphorically shouting. That is not a good look IMHO.
I think were at the point where the behaviour of antitheists is anticordial and hilariously domineering. So guys I think I got better things to do.
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Vlad,
Yes you said a working assumption that material is all there is. It's the ''all there is'' bit that you are trying to turdpolish into having no philosophical entailment...but it does...and you've been caught out.
No-one does that. Stop lying.
There is no mileage on shooting the messenger here or running after him onto every thread metaphorically shouting. That is not a good look IMHO.
You’re not being shot – you’re just being caught out in a lie you’ve ridden relentlessly into the ground.
I think were at the point where the behaviour of antitheists is anticordial and hilariously domineering. So guys I think I got better things to do.
As “this behaviour” is calling you out on your lie, there’s s simple solution: stop lying.
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Anchorman, I am not asking Christians to give up their faith in Christ or abandon his teachings. I am only saying that there is no final word on what exactly Jesus taught. The bible was compiled 300 years later with the vested interest of many others at that point of time. On the other hand, some Jews and early Christians and also certain gospels such as The Gospel of Thomas besides certain words in the official bible itself, seem to indicate a belief in reincarnation (refer link in the OP). That idea is also more universal in its application than standard biblical ideas and has a stronger philosophical base not just in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism etc. but in Kabbala, gnosticism and Sufi teachings as well. So...maybe Christianity does have its secret teachings that go beyond standard faith based beliefs. I don't think the possibility can be dismissed outright, rather it needs to be investigated and studied more carefully. My point is to arrive at a common philosophical base for all people and to keep cultural and traditional influences to the minimum. Cheers. Sriram
- What the blood and stomach pills has the 'Gospel of Thomas' got to do with Christianiity? Oh, and by the way, you DO know we now have a fragment of the Fospel which dates to around 90AD -or earlier? http://www.livescience.com/49489-oldest-known-gospel-mummy-mask.html
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Hi everyone,
It is said that about 25% of Christians today believe in reincarnation.
Origen, a early church father, is said to have believed in reincarnation and some passages in the bible itself are said to indicate reincarnation. Some texts like the Gospel of Thomas, recovered at the Nag Hammadi site, seem to refer to reincarnation. Kabbalists and some others in Judaism seem to believe in reincarnation. Some Christians who had NDE's have talked of people waiting for reincarnation in the after-life.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html
Is reincarnation the forgotten doctrine in Christianity?
Any views?
Sriram
While you're at it Sriram, how about believing in the tooth faiiry as well?
A blue elephant in a Savill Row suit?
ippy
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. So guys I think I got better things to do.
Indefinitely?
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Indefinitely?
Look Seb you and I both believe in reincarnation since we reincarnate the same joke over and over again.
In fact...... I will make a joke and then you reincarnate it.
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HI everyone,
In fact you'll be surprised at the Sufi (esoteric Islam) teachings. Here is a link...
http://rose-sufi-crescent.blogspot.in/2007/02/islam-sufism-and-reincarnation.html
***********
Many Muslims mistakenly believe that after death the soul resides at the place where the body has been buried, awaiting the resurrection. What does the Qur'an teach?
The Archangel Gabriel in Surah 2: 28 revealed:
"How can you reject faith in God? Do you not recall that you were once without life, and Allah gave you life; then God will cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and finally to Allah will you return."
The above passage speaks clearly to the reality of reincarnation. Life and death are given to us as gifts from Allah. The cycle is continual. We are born, we die and then we are born again. Eventually we return to the Source.
************
The ancient Greeks also accepted reincarnation in the name of Metempsychosis.
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HI everyone,
In fact you'll be surprised at the Sufi (esoteric Islam) teachings. Here is a link...
http://rose-sufi-crescent.blogspot.in/2007/02/islam-sufism-and-reincarnation.html
***********
Many Muslims mistakenly believe that after death the soul resides at the place where the body has been buried, awaiting the resurrection. What does the Qur'an teach?
The Archangel Gabriel in Surah 2: 28 revealed:
"How can you reject faith in God? Do you not recall that you were once without life, and Allah gave you life; then God will cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and finally to Allah will you return."
The above passage speaks clearly to the reality of reincarnation. Life and death are given to us as gifts from Allah. The cycle is continual. We are born, we die and then we are born again. Eventually we return to the Source.
************
The ancient Greeks also accepted reincarnation in the name of Metempsychosis.
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What has this got to do with any Chrtstian doctrine of eternity (not that there's such a thing as any Christian doctrine of reincarnation).
Whatever Moslems believe is for the Moslem board.
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There's no such thing as a Moslem. Try describing, to a Muslim, a Muslim as a Moslem & they will tell you. Same goes for 'Mohammedan' or 'Musselman'.
(This was pointed out, politely, to me and others by Muslims at work & since then I have been carefuld not to say 'Moslem', & politely corrected others if they have said it. Muslims really don't like it & I believe we should address people how they like to be addressed.)
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What has this got to do with any Chrtstian doctrine of eternity (not that there's such a thing as any Christian doctrine of reincarnation).
Whatever Moslems believe is for the Moslem board.
Anchorman.......You are getting unnecessarily concerned about reincarnation being discussed on the Christian board! I am only pointing out that Judaism and Islam have esoteric branches that teach reincarnation. Ancient Greeks also believed in it. Even in Christianity we have seen gnostic Christians who taught reincarnation.
So...reincarnation is not as alien and irrelevant to Abrahamic religions, western philosophy and Christianity itself as you might like to believe.
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I can see no reason why it should not be discussed here, anything that broadens our knowledge and makes us think & look things up is welcome to me.
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Anchorman.......You are getting unnecessarily concerned about reincarnation being discussed on the Christian board! I am only pointing out that Judaism and Islam have esoteric branches that teach reincarnation. Ancient Greeks also believed in it. Even in Christianity we have seen gnostic Christians who taught reincarnation.
So...reincarnation is not as alien and irrelevant to Abrahamic religions, western philosophy and Christianity itself as you might like to believe.
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Gnostic Christians?
Oxymoron alert.
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Maybe Anchor but this is a discussion forum so all sorts of ideas are going to come up. I'd have thought you would have found it all interesting considering your Egyptology studies.
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Maybe Anchor but this is a discussion forum so all sorts of ideas are going to come up. I'd have thought you would have found it all interesting considering your Egyptology studies.
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Yep. But those studies led, in passing, to a cursory look at the Gnostic material (some of which was inDemotic, a variant of hieroglyphs which later morphed into Coptic) - and the mysticism blend of Hellenistic mystery thought and bits of Christianity show that interesting as third and fourth century Gnostic literature is, 'Christian' it isn't.
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So?
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So?
So: If the literature isn't Christian in any accepted sense of the term, those who follow it aren't, either.
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Gnostic Christians?
Oxymoron alert.
Here is something about Gnostic Christians...in Q&A.
http://www.thepearl.org/What_is_Gnosticism.htm
and this...
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html
In any case....as Christians believe, if the soul/spirit is eternal and leaves the body after death....it must have existed before birth also. So...what is the problem in reincarnation anyway?!
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Here is something about Gnostic Christians...in Q&A.
http://www.thepearl.org/What_is_Gnosticism.htm
and this...
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html
In any case....as Christians believe, if the soul/spirit is eternal and leaves the body after death....it must have existed before birth also. So...what is the problem in reincarnation anyway?!
Here is something about Gnostic Christians...in Q&A.
http://www.thepearl.org/What_is_Gnosticism.htm
and this...
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html
In any case....as Christians believe, if the soul/spirit is eternal and leaves the body after death....it must have existed before birth also. So...what is the problem in reincarnation anyway?!
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I have no problem with reincarnation.
I happily reject it, alongside gnostic stuff, as totally incompatable with the Christian faith.
Simples.
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I have no problem with reincarnation.
I happily reject it, alongside gnostic stuff, as totally incompatable with the Christian faith.
Simples.
Ok...that's fine. But how does your rejection change anything?!
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Ok...that's fine. But how does your rejection change anything?!
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Not only my rejection, but that of every mainstream Christian denomination, theologian, cleric and scholar.
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A very interesting video that I think every Christian should watch....whether you agree with it or not..!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbIRvkIWkUM
This guy about covers it!
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Yep. But those studies led, in passing, to a cursory look at the Gnostic material (some of which was inDemotic, a variant of hieroglyphs which later morphed into Coptic) - and the mysticism blend of Hellenistic mystery thought and bits of Christianity show that interesting as third and fourth century Gnostic literature is, 'Christian' it isn't.
I've no real axe to grind, but I'd like to know how you would differentiate between those Gnostics who specifically refer to their own version of Christ, and the Hermetic Gnostics, for instance, who don't. Christ certainly gets referred to a huge amount in the literature of the former: perhaps you'd prefer "Pseudo_Christian"? Then you'd no doubt apply such a term to Arians, Unitarians, Mandeans, Sea-of-Faith-'uns (in modern times) etc? And then we'd certainly be into the only genuine tartan territory here.
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- What the blood and stomach pills has the 'Gospel of Thomas' got to do with Christianiity?
Well, it does have a few verses highly reminiscent of traditional gospel texts, and it has been dated (equivocally) as early as any of them.
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I've no real axe to grind, but I'd like to know how you would differentiate between those Gnostics who specifically refer to their own version of Christ, and the Hermetic Gnostics, for instance, who don't. Christ certainly gets referred to a huge amount in the literature of the former: perhaps you'd prefer "Pseudo_Christian"? Then you'd no doubt apply such a term to Arians, Unitarians, Mandeans, Sea-of-Faith-'uns (in modern times) etc? And then we'd certainly be into the only genuine tartan territory here.
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Much of 'Christian' gnosticism developed in Alexandria, DU - and that place had been a melting pot of religious ideas since its' foundation, and the syncretism of Hellenic beliefs with native Egyptian religion in an attempt to codify the existing plethora of deitires (A bit like herding cats with a hamster).
Add the Greek philosophies into the mix, stir in some stoicism, and the pre-Christian 'gnostics' were well established.
As soon as Christian material began to emerge, the assimilation begun with the Egyptian religion simply continued apace. That's why the 'Christian' gnostics were able to find a comfortable acceptance in the already convoluted mess of Alexandrine thought.
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HI everyone,
In fact you'll be surprised at the Sufi (esoteric Islam) teachings. Here is a link...
http://rose-sufi-crescent.blogspot.in/2007/02/islam-sufism-and-reincarnation.html
***********
Many Muslims mistakenly believe that after death the soul resides at the place where the body has been buried, awaiting the resurrection. What does the Qur'an teach?6
The Archangel Gabriel in Surah 2: 28 revealed:
"How can you reject faith in God? Do you not recall that you were once without life, and Allah gave you life; then God will cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and finally to Allah will you return."
The above passage speaks clearly to the reality of reincarnation. Life and death are given to us as gifts from Allah. The cycle is continual. We are born, we die and then we are born again. Eventually we return to the Source.
************
The ancient Greeks also accepted reincarnation in the name of Metempsychosis.
And there are also a lot of people that think Elvis is still alive Sriram?
ippy
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So: If the literature isn't Christian in any accepted sense of the term, those who follow it aren't, either.
Quite probably Anchorman but it isn't only Christians who post in the Christian topic, it's open to everyone so all sorts of ideas will come up.
(Oh I liked your oath,"Blood and stomach pills", It's great.)
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Quite probably Anchorman but it isn't only Christians who post in the Christian topic, it's open to everyone so all sorts of ideas will come up.
(Oh I liked your oath,"Blood and stomach pills", It's great.)
I don't think Anchorman is suggesting it is only open to Christians, rather that if there is going to be a wide ranging discussion about many different religious beliefs, the others are not necessarily relevant to Christianity, and the topic might be suited to the more general religion board.
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That's a point Nearly SAne but Sririam was initially talking about Christianity and Reincarnation and that's led to other things -like gnosticism (which I've just been reading up on) and the Gospel of Thomas!
Doesn'tbother me one way or the other where the thread is but it seems to fit here OK.
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That's a point Nearly SAne but Sririam was initially talking about Christianity and Reincarnation and that's led to other things -like gnosticism which I've just been reading up on!
Doesn'tbother me one way or the other where the thread is but it seems to fit here OK.
You may want to apologise to Anchorman for suggesting he thought non Christians shouldn't be posting here though.
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I didn't think my comment was rude but if you do see it as rude probably Anchorman does too so I'll say, "Sorry" here and now.
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I didn't think my comment was rude but if you do see it as rude probably Anchorman does too so I'll say, "Sorry" here and now.
Didn't say it was rude, but it isn't what he was suggesting, so it was incorrect.
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Oh aye fair enough.
I misunderstood and am sorry.
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Oh aye fair enough.
I misunderstood and am sorry.
Kudos. Part of my reasoning for pursuing it is that Anchorman is an incredibly welcoming person to non Christians so I wouldn't want him tarred with a brush of intolerance.
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I like him very much too, he's kind and clever.
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There are a lot of crawlers ion this forum........ :D
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There are a lot of crawlers ion this forum........ :D
;)
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What in the blood and stomach pills are you on about, Anchorman???? (Are you blushing?) ;)
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I don't see it Anchorman's way about matters of faith, but he is a good lad. If there is a god I reckon it would be proud to have him as a buddy. :)
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Sure would! Oops, he's gone red in the face again.
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Sure would! Oops, he's gone red in the face again.
;D
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I like him very much too, he's kind and clever.
He is indeed.
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Much of 'Christian' gnosticism developed in Alexandria, DU - and that place had been a melting pot of religious ideas since its' foundation, and the syncretism of Hellenic beliefs with native Egyptian religion in an attempt to codify the existing plethora of deitires (A bit like herding cats with a hamster).
Add the Greek philosophies into the mix, stir in some stoicism, and the pre-Christian 'gnostics' were well established.
As soon as Christian material began to emerge, the assimilation begun with the Egyptian religion simply continued apace. That's why the 'Christian' gnostics were able to find a comfortable acceptance in the already convoluted mess of Alexandrine thought.
Anchorman
Yes, that's a very credible explanation of the origins of all types of 'Gnosticism'. There are of course maverick dissenting voices (not all of them quite barking :) ), who would suggest that the 'true Christian' texts are not quite as unique and pure as some might like to think. I don't doubt that you would concede that there had been some external influence on the classic Christian texts?
Two chaps who would claim that the influences from 'pagan' sources were considerable are:
1) Dennis R. MacDonald, in his 'The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark' in which he claimed that Mark was steeped in the atmosphere of the Homeric epics and had deliberately inverted the qualities of the Homeric heroes in his depiction of Jesus.
2)Prof Alvar Ellegard in his 'Jesus, 100 years before Christ', in which he argues that John's gospel, regarded by many scholars as a composite document, was originally mostly a Gnostic dualist text deliberately transformed to promote the idea of Christ as God incarnate (an idea anathema to most of the Gnostics of the 2nd century, certainly).
And while we're on the subject of 'authentic' Christian texts, what on earth has the fire-breathing monster Christ of the Book of Revelation got to do with the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount?
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On the subject of Gnosticism, this link is to an article by an author called Miguel. It is on the GH site because Miguel is April's Author of the Month. I thought it might b of interest here.
https://grahamhancock.com/connerm1/
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On the subject of Gnosticism, this link is to an article by an author called Miguel. It is on the GH site because Miguel is April's Author of the Month. I thought it might b of interest here.
https://grahamhancock.com/connerm1/
Author of the month on Hancock's website. That's a thing... Sort of like tweeter of the month on a Alex Jones show.
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NS
I don't know anything about this Alex Jones show but I see it referred to quite often! :D
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NS
I don't know anything about this Alex Jones show but I see it referred to quite often! :D
Try it, if you can stand it
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheAlexJonesChannel